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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: coombs on Monday 01 November 10 22:47 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Until today I did think Elizabeth Newman baptised 14 October 1753 at St Dunstan, Stepney, daughter of Anthony and Elizabeth Newman was my ancestor who married Samuel Auber in November 1774 in St Dunstan, Stepney, London.
But then I found in July 1754 an Eliz Newman burial in St Dunstan, daughter of Anthony. Found through the new LMA indexed 1538-1812 London records. That shows to be cautious esp with common names such as Newman.
Now I will have to try and see if I can find the origin of my Elizabeth Newman. When she wed Samuel Auber in 1774 the two witnesses were regular ones. They said they were of the hamlet of Ratcliff although they did have their first child Samuel Jnr in March 1773 in Shoreditch a while before they wed. Samuel Auber was born in 1750 in Shoreditch and died in 1827 and is buried at St Dunstan Stepney but I have not yet found Elizabeth's burial. The surname was sometimes spelt as Obey as fellow Rootschatter Richarde79 and myself have found out.
Ben
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Hi Ben
What about this for an alternative
Elizabeth Newman Baptism 10 Apr 1746 St Dunstan and All Saints, Middlesex John Newman
or is this too early do you think?
Also as promised I have been plugging away trying to find the origins of her father in law Samuel Auber/Obe/Obey. I have been finding all references to the name in my records and grouping and organising them into families.
As you remember, I though it unlikely he was fresh refugee, as he was using the Anglican churches as eary as 1740. We had theorised he would have been baptised around 1720, to a Huguenot family from the early waves, anglicised by the mid 1700's.
I found only one family which is many ways the perfect match, who came over in 1681. Name is spelt variously Obe/Aube/Obee/Obey, and I have kept the spelling of the originals in the quoted records.
Threadneedle Street French Huguenot Church Tesmoignages: "Gabriel Obe and wife Lousie Rozee, and Louis Roze" his brother in law, on testimony of Plenier 11 Dec 1681"
Threadneedle Street French Huguenot Church Charity Records: "Gabriel Obe, Linen Weaver, with wife and 2 children 27 Dec 1681 11 shillings, 9 May 1682 last grant to Jacques Yale, who had cured Obe's son who was burnt, 15 shillings. 4 Grants made in all Total of 1 pound, 18 shillings, 0 pence."
Gabriel and Louise went on to have a futher 9 children in England, (6 daughters, 3 sons). All baptised at Threadneedle Street. Their son Tobie, is the one of interest to us:
Threadneedle Street French Huguenot Church Baptisms: "Aube, Tobie, son of Gabriel Auber and Louise Rozee sep 20 1696 "
He joined the Threadneedle Street Church aged 18, but married and baptised his children in the Anglican church:
Threadneedle Street French Huguenot Church Tesmoignages: "Aube, Tobie , son of Gabriel, aged 18, Xmas day 1714"
Saint Dunstan,Stepney: 14 Jun 1717 Marriage: "Tobias Obee of Spitalfields, Weaver, and Jane Rigg, of the Same, Spinster."
Saint Dunstan,Stepney 8 Jul 1718 : "Peter, son of Tobias Obey of Mile End New Town, Weaver, and Jane his wife.. Baptised 15 days old|
Saint Dunstan,Stepney 7 Oct 1718 : "Peter son of Tobias Obey of Mile End New Town, Weaver, Buried."
Saint Dunstan,Stepney 22 Apr 1722 : "Sarah, daughter of Tobias Obee of Mile End New Town, Weaver, and Jane.. Baptised 22 days old"
St Mary, Whitechapel 4 Oct 1724 : "Elizabeth Obee, daughter of Tobias and Jane in Wentworth Street, Baptised."
He was widowed around 1728/9 and remarried at St Dunstan's Twice:
Saint Dunstan,Stepney 7 Jul 1729 Marriage "Tobias Obee of Bethnal Green, Weaver, and Ann Morpas, of Same, Widow."
Saint Dunstan,Stepney 5 Sep 1736 Marriage "Tobias Obee of Bethnal Green, Widow, and Elizabeth Cook of the Same, Widow."
Now he is still involved in the French community at this time, as he appears in the records of La Patente Huguenot Chapel, Spitalfields, on 14 April 1728 , standing as godfather (recorded as Tobie Aube) to his nephew Tobie Fret, son of Jacque Fret and his sister Louise Aube. (Funnily enough my ancestor, 6xg grandmother Judith Deverdun stood as godmother to one of their next children in same church).
Now why I think this such a good match is his other sister Jeanne Louise, married one of the Moncoutant Contingent of Protestants in 1708 at same chapel, Jacques Pougneau, Tobie was a witness. (Paul has commented on this marriage before on our other thread, and the fact he thought it important). So this links them to your Fradins/Morins etc.
Also, Tobie and his wife last use the church of St Marys Whitechapel, where your Samuel also first turns up using. Their very fluid spelling of their surname exactly matches the pattern found in your Samuels family. Tobie and Jane are one of the only Anglicised Auber couple baptising children in the right place at right time to be Samuels parents. There is a gap between 1718-1722 which would exactly fit for his theorised birth in 1720. But perhaps of most significance I have proof positive there is indeed one more child to them, missing from their baptisms. As shown above their son Peter died, so they should have only two children in 1727/8. But on the accounts for the Royal Bounty distributed to the French Huguenot refugees and their decendants that year, Tobie's wife appears
Jeanne/Jane Aube, wife of Tobie and her three children, in Browns Lane Quarter Spitalfields, recieved 12 Shillings (1727-8.)
A shiver ran down my spine when I found that! Of course can't prove the missing child is Samuel 100%...but what do you think Ben, good case for it now at least?
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Hi Richard
I think that Elizabeth Newman died as a baby as an Elizabeth Newman infant died in 1746 buried at that very church daughter of John.
Wow, as for the Auber connections, it does seem good. The fluid way of spelling the names is good. So that does mean that there was another child of Tobias Obee we need to find.
The best thing to do is to try and see if Tobias left any wills and to see if Elizabeth and Sarah lived and got married and if they left any wills.
Ben
Ben
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They certainly had one more child Ben yes. Given his wife died in 1727, their marriage in 1717, and the other childrens baptism/birth dates, it can only realistically have been born in 1720, or later between 1725-7. The fact we have an Aube couple in the right place, right time, with a child, whose baptism is missing, though doesn't prove they were Samuels parents no, certainly makes them stand out candidates to be at very least.
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Hi Richard
What church has the missing years 1718-1722 St Dunstan or Whitechapel church?
Ben
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As far as I know both church registers are complete Ben? But not 100% on that. I have not looked through the registers of both page for page searching for their missing son/Samuel. It seems likely he would have been baptised at one or the other. The search facility on Ancestry is not throwing up anything helpful
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Found the wife's burial
"Jane Obay, of Bethnal Green 5 Apr 1727"
Also his father
"Gabriel Obee, Weaver, of Bethnal Green High Street, 7 Feb 1713/14 "
Both at St Dunstan's.
That further narrows down the possible/probable date for the birth of the missing child, as roughly May 1719- Apr 1721 or July 1725-Apr 1727
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Hi Richard
I think I might have to manually search St Dunstan or St Mary Whitechapel page by page to see if that throws any light on it.
Ben
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Hi Ben
It probably may be the only way to rule out it being their smudged/obscured/mistranscribed etc. Alternatively this child may have been baptised elsewhere..but lets hope not for now and think positive. It seems we are at last making some progress here.
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Just to add Gabriel's daughter, Marie, died in the French Hospital
"Marie, native de Londres, fille de feu Gabriel Obe natif de Blois en France, refugie pour cause de Religion"
So according to her this family, if it is Samuel's, originated in Blois.
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Hi Richard
What year was that?
Ben
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Marie died in Feb 1770, but applied to the hospital in 1766 and was admitted same year.
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Hi Richard
Those Aubers did seem to cause us some confusion until now.
I wonder about Elizabeth Newman. I know she wed Samuel Auber in November 1773 but as yet I cannot find her burial or anything to narrow down an age for her to search for her correct baptism.
Ben
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Hi Ben
Just been looking at the maps. Wentworth Street, Whitechapel, the address Tobias and Jane Obey are at in 1724, runs onto and connects with Bell Yard/Lane, Whitechapel the adress Samuel and Mary Obey are in 1740 when they baptised their first child. May be another coincidence...but makes you wonder.
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I'm wondering how right Marie was saying her father was from Blois. The testimony Gabriel had when he joined in 1681 was from "Plenier". In the Huguenot Societies notes it says this is a misreading for Plessier, which is Plessis Marly/Plessis-Morney. His wife's brother Louis Rozee who joined the same day with them, later married at Threadneedle Street, and confirmed on his marriage record he was a native of 'Plessis Marly'. I'm not sure exactly where in France this is, perhaps it is in Blois, a province, though I suspect it might be in Normandy as a lot of the witnesses and assosciates of theirs in these early days appear to be from the Caen area. Louis Rozee's new wife was from the Luneray area of Normandy.
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Ben
I think I have found Plessis-Mornay. Today it is 'Le Plessis Mornay', in the city of Longvilliers, part of the Il-de France region about 30 miles South West of Paris. Also at the marriage of Tobie's sister in 1708, one of the witnesses was a Daniel Micheaux/Michaud of Moncoutant. He also married an Aube, Jean, possible another of Tobie's sisters. She gives her place of origin as 'Beau' in the Il-de-France. There are a couple of place names Beauvais and Beaurepais, which are just south of Plessis-Mornay which she may be referring to. Why Gabriel's daughter thought he was from Blois I don't know. It's possible he was born there and moved to Plessis. However also worth bearing in mind she was born nearly two decades after he had come to England, and was 70 years old and in frail health when she gave this account to the French Hospital, they are not always very reliable. Certainly all the other evidence points towards her having got this wrong.
I also found Tobie's wife listed again in the 1727-8 Royal Bounty accounts. They have done this by mistake as they listed her under both spellings, Aube, and Obey.
The second reads thus:
"Jeanne Obey, wife of Tobie, aged 33 years, her husband at sea, and for 3 burials, 1 pound, 12 shillings, 0 pence. Browns Lane Quarter, Spitalfields"
One of my ancestors, Jean Ledoux, a silk weaver like Tobie, is also listed 'away at sea' in one of the records for my family. Whether this means they served with the navy or were returning to France clandestinely to visit relatives etc I do not know. Also unhelpfully there is no greater expansion on what these three burials they paid her for relate to. Did all three of their children die at this time? If so we may be on the wrong track with searching for Samuel in this family.
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Hi Richard
Would those 3 burials include Jeanne or not?
Ben
I did find a Tobias Obey burial in July 1728 at St Dunstan of Bethnal Green then it says (Pen) or something afterwards.
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I would have said not, because the way it reads she was the recipitent of the payment, but that said, it's not exactly clear is it, and we do know she did die that year and fairly early into it. To be honest, I don't know! It's a shame they didn't record greater detail.
That Tobie burial is puzzling too isn't it. He certainly didn't die then, because of the two marriages, and he is on the next year's Royal Bounty Payments (1729) claiming money, no mention of his wife or children, but that years accounts were generally less detailed than the previous year, so again don't think we can form any firm conclusions from that alone.
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I wonder if your right Ben. 3 Burials seems alot and why is their no trace of them at either St Dunstan's or St Mary's, the only two churches in the area of the East End at that time they were living in? The French Chapels did not have their own burial grounds or permission to bury dead. We do know she died during that period. This is a printed version of the original accounts so there is room for error to have crept in during the copying from the original ledger books of the payments made. It stands to reason, with husband Tobie away at Sea, that the family may have turned to the local charitable institutes to pay for her burial.
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Also I wonder whether 'Pen' in this context might mean an army or naval pension, if Tobie was at sea with the royal navy? Since Tobie himself was not born in France, I do wonder whether he would have been visiting relatives at that date, 46 years after his father had fled? Would contact have been kept up with uncles, cousins who remained? Though the persecutions didn't end until the 1780's, certainly after Louis XIV's death in 1715 some did return to France, some permanently, some to visit relatives. An extreme example from my own tree is one Claud Andre. He was one of a dozen or so men with my ancestor who were banished for life from France in 1721, in what was quite a cause celebre at the time 'famous across Europe'. Caroline the Princess of Wales, later Queen to George II had personally intervened to get the mens freedom, and asylum in England. Though they were allowed to bring some family, Claude was one of the older of the group, probably therefore with stronger financial and community ties back in France. He risked defying the royal decree banishing him, and returned to his home town Nimes within 5 years, though the unfortunate fellow was struck by lightening and killed outright there in 1729. It does however show if he, a famous banished exile, could return to France in 1726/6, other less conspicous Protestants probably could and did so also.
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Hi Richard
Having checked the burial register it does say Pen after some other burials so the Pen might not stand for pension. Maybe he was a child of Tobias which would rule out Samuel as a son of him.
Saying that, Samuel could well be a relative of Tobias. Is there a chance you could list all of the siblings of Tobias?
Ben
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Hi Ben
Gabriel and Louise had two children when they arrived in England in 1681 not named in the records. One of of these must have been Jeanne Louise Obe who married Jacques Pougneau 1708 in La Patente Huguenot Chapel.
These are the other children baptised in England.
Pierre Aube 11 MAY 1684 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Louise Obe 07 NOV 1686 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Susanne Aube 28 OCT 1688 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Elizabeth Aube 16 NOV 1690 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Louise Obe 17 JUL 1692 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Marie Madelaine Aube 25 MAR 1694 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Tobie Aube 20 SEP 1696 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Louise Obe 25 JUN 1699 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
Jacques Gabriel Obee 25 MAY 1701 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot
The only baptisms to give extra info, was the last two, Louise's stating Gabriel was a Silk Weaver living in Wheeler Street, Spitalfields, Jacques's stating again Gabriel was a Silk Weaver, adress now given as Pheonix Street, Spitalfields.
Some of their children died, as there are the following burials, children of Gabriel, at St Dunstan's, where he is again described as a weaver, first of Spitalfields, then of Bethnal Green:
Peter Obee Burial 4 May 1683
Susanna Obee Burial 20 Jun 1691
Mary Obey Burial 12 Dec 1691
Elizabeth Obey Burial 6 Aug 1694
Jacob Obey Burial 20 Nov 1705
It is worth noting that at this point Threadneedle Street was using the Gregorian Calender, as used in France, with the year starting on January 1st, which had not yet been adopted in England, who were still using the Julian, which started later March. There is therefore a possibility of dates conflicting between the records of St Dunstan's and Threadneedle Street.
Only two of Tobie's siblings I can definently account for his sister Jeanne Louise, who married Jacques Pougneau 1708, and his sister Louise, who married, James Fret 26 Dec 1719 at St Dunstan, with her name anglicsied on the record as "Lucy Obee". As I say I also believe Jeanne Aube, who married Daniel Michaud, 9 April 1705 at St Dunstan, was a close relative, either another sister or cousin. Her name is recorded on that record as "Jane Aubey".
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Ben
I can't say we have proven Samuel as belonging to this group..but by process of elimination it seems likely.
Gabriel and his branch are certainly the first and earliest to come, and the tesmoignages now looking at them show this was clearly from the Paris region.
The next Aubers came from the Bolbec region of Pays De Caux, Normandy (Montvilliers, Criquetot, Fecamp etc) in summer 1687. Philemon Auber and his wife Elizabeth Maret, with their son Daniel, and his brother Jean Auber and his wife Susanne Le Moisse with their sons Jean and Pierre. Pierre married Elizabeth Louvet at Threadneedle Street Oct 1689, and Jean (jr) his brother married Rachel Hue May 1690 at Threadneedle Street. Daniel Married Susanne De la Mare around 1712.
Pierre became a succesful master silk weaver in Norton Folgate. His son, Pierre b.1691, married his dads cousin daniel's sister Marie De La Mare, and his sons and grandsons carried on the weaving business, for the best part of the next century in Spital Square.
It is worth noting the family above always spell the name Auber or Aubert. There is no a gap in their baptisms where Samuel would likely fit, and were not Anglicised, still using the French churches at the period we are looking at. In fact two of Pierre's sons Jacques and Isaac, married sisters Anne and Marie Galhie, and had their children baptised at Threadneedle Street 1755-1776. These are 100% regular recorded as 'Auber'. So it appears this familyresisted assimilation and were not using Anglican churches for a long time.
The next branch was again from Normandy, but this time Beauville, on the outskirts of Caen. A Jacob Auber, son of Jacques Auber and Magdelain Moutier, born around 1670, seems to be the originator of this branch, and had several children baptised at La Patente with his wife Elizabeth Bosquet 1702-1716. Two of his sons Daniel Abraham Auber, and Adrian Auber baptised their children there also 1727-35, so this family were also still using the French churches for their baptisms the period we are looking at. The name for them is recorded as Aube/Auber/Aubair...but never Obe or Obey or Obee.
The next branch was a Josue and Ann Auber who came from Amsterdam in 1706. They had one son also Josue baptised 1708 at Threadneedle than I lose sight of these.
A Jean/John Auber had three daughters with his wife Susan Deheulle baptised 1722-25 at Threadneedle Street. Susanne is a distant cousin of mine and from Bolbec, so he is probably a relation of the 1687 Bolbec branch. I think he is likely the son of Jean Auber and Rachel Hue.
A Louis Auber came over in 1723 from same place St Eustache, Bolbec. He was given testimony by Daniel Auber, above of the earlier 1687 Bolbec branch, so was also likely a relation of theirs. He and his wife Elizabeth Le Comte had 7 children baptised at Threadneedle Street between 1728-1748.
There are then no new Aubers coming until the later waves. A Jacques Auber, from Notre Dame Du Bec, around 1740. A Pierre Abraham Auber who cam, again from St Eustache, Bolbec in 1743, and his brother James Abraham Auber, who joined him from the same place, ten years later in 1753. They were baptising children at Threadneedle Street until the mid 1770's. Their name is almost always recorded Auber, once as Aubert.
So you see Gabriels branch are the only Aubers Angliscised at early enough time to be Samuels family, and the only one who frequently use Obey/Obe/Obee/Aube/Aubey spelling variants in both the French and English records. I do not find the 'o' variants ever attached to any of the other families, in the French sources.
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Ben
This is probably unrelated, because Tobias and Jane had their daughter Sarah baptised exactly 3 weeks later at St Dunstan's, but on 1 April 1722 at St Mary's Whitechapel a baby is entered as 'Samuel..the friends went away and gave no account of his parents names'. Probably not our man but thought I would put it out there just in case.
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Hi Richard
God these Aubers do give us a merry dance. I reckon Samuel is related to Gabriel Auber/Obey as their surname is the only one that divides between Auber and Obey.
That Samuel in 1722 could be him. Probably not but you never know.
Ben
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Hi
My Samuel had a daughter called Susannah Obey and a son called Jacob who both died as infants as well as Samuel born 1750. Could they have been named after the siblings of Tobias?
Ben
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Hi Ben
I've just rewritten some of the above as I found new info, and thought it might have mislead anyone coming upon this thread at a later date researching the Aubers. Basically I think there were three main branches of Aubers/Obe's The first From Il de France/Paris 1681. The second from Bolbec region 1687-1753 in several waves, but all related, the third from Beauville Caen around 1700.
The Caen branch was started by a Jacob. So it's possible Samuel might link to them instead? However I still favour Gabriels 1681 branch as most likely. They certainly have a child born around the right time we can't, at the moment, account for who could be Samuel. The spellings of their name best matches the pattern found for Samuel.
I guess we can never know for certain unless we do find a baptism to settle the matter. I am close to exhausting my own resources here...and admit I am beginning to run short of ideas.
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Hi Richard
What we need to try and do is to find a burial for Samuel Auber. I dont think that 1758 one is his because it was in Holborn. Susannah died in 1815 aged 94 so born about 1721.
I wonder where this Tobias Obey died in 1728 fits in. I know it is not the one who was father of Sarah, Elizabeth and the missing child.
The earliest record of Samuel at present is his son born in 1740 at Bell yard, Shoreditch. mary then died and Samuel remarried in 1743.
Ben
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We are missing a whole heap of burials for these Aubers though arn't we Ben. There are children of Samuel and Elizabeth Newman who must have died, but no corresponding burials. I cannot find one for Tobias Aube/Obe. I'm wondering if they were using some sort of private, non conformist burial ground. The records for these on BMD registers for that are all seem to relate to a slightly later period from 1810 onwards. I wonder whether any were operating before this date? Bunhill Fields I think was, but that is covered by BMD registers. Any others not covered?
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Also Ben I'm not too sure on the facts we have for Samuel.
We have a Samuel Obee and Mary having a son Samuel 1740 at St Mary's Whitechapel, and this son buried there same year. Then there is a possible burial for Mary there at 1747. Then Samuel Obee and Susannah, three children Susannah, Samuel and Jacob 1749-53? So a second marriage? But then we have the marriage at the Fleet 1743 for Samuel Obee, weaver of shoreditch and Judith Durham. Where does that fit in? Is there more than one Samuel?
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Hi Richard
I do know we have proven that Samuel born in 1750 is my one, and that he had 2 siblings, Susannah and Jacob.
Maybe the Samuel Obey who died in 1758 was the one who wed in 1743.
I need to have a look at the 1747 burial. This means searching for a marriage of a Samuel to a Susannah 1747-1749 ish.
Ben
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Mary Obey was buried in January 1747 a woman from the prison. Buried at St Mary, Whitechapel.
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Hi Ben
I remember at the time thinking the 1743 Fleet marriage may have been Susanne recorded as Judith, because I have an example in my own tree of a bride at the Fleet around the same time having her forename recorded incorrect. Of course being 'clandestine' marriages possible too the bride deliberalty gave fake name?
That said if we take it that Mary 1747 is Samuel's first wife, then unless he commited bigamy, that must mean there are two different Samuel Obee's. And we can't even find a baptism for one! :o I think youre right about being led a merry dance Ben ;D
Actually thinking about it, what if Mary was sent to prison in1741/2? If she is still there in 1747 when she died, must have been a long sentence? Maybe that's why he went off and remarried, clandestinely at the Fleet. Maybe that marriage to Judith didn't work out, and he went off with Susanne after a couple of years, but never actually marrying her? Maybe Susanne new about Judith and didn't want to be party to bigamy? Would explain why we can't find their marriage.
Maybe we should be trying to find a trial for this Mary Obee who died in the prison 1747?
Alot of maybes there I realise! Think I am guilty of stretching the scant facts we do have and trying to stitch them together into a coherent patchwork, we need more hard evidence somehow.
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Hi Ben and Richard,
I've just found your thread, and found it facinating!! How do you find all this stuff. I am related to Samuel Auber, through George Gore Auber b.1900, back to Edwin Auber b. 1841, and dogey marriage through to Emma Auber b.1813, through John Auber b.1783 to Samuel Auber b.1754
Are you talking about Samuel Auber's father? because the Samual I have was born 1754?
Also where can I get copies of the french Huguenot tesmoignages etc.?
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Hi Auber
Welcome to the fun! ;D All help we can get is much needed and appreciated.
Samuel Auber 1754 I think we are both pretty solid with, it is his father Samuel, (born circa 1720?) who is proving the real trouble, and how he maybe links to the Auber/Obees in the Huguenot community.
The Huguenot Tesmoignages, for Threadneedle Street at least, are available on CD Rom from the Societies website. I don't think they survive for entries to the smaller chapels in Spitalfields such as the Artillery, so are by no means an exhaustive account of the community. However, before these opened, the early to mid 1680's, most of the refugees did join Threadneedle Street, and even after a fair amount did so, even when day to day they likely used the smaller and nearer chapels in Spitalfields. I find it one of the most useful resources the society has published.
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Morning Ben and Auber,
I have found Jacob Auber, of Caen, and his wife Elizabeth on the 1727/8 Royal Bounty list. He is listed with two children, one aged 11 one aged 16.
These are his chidlrens baptisms:
MARIANNE AUBER - 22 MAR 1702 La Patente French Huguenot
DANIEL ABRAHAM AUBAIR - 05 MAR 1704 La Patente French Huguenot,
ESTIENNE AUBE - 17 MAR 1706 La Patente French Huguenot
JEAN AUBER - 25 APR 1708 La Patente French Huguenot
ANNE ELIZABET AUBE - 18 NOV 1716 La Patente French Huguenot,
Ann Elizabeth died a spinster in her old age in the French Hospital, so is definently the 11 year old. They had another son Pierre, whose baptism I cannot find, but he died in the French Hospital 1784, aged 75, so was born around 1709/10. He is probably the 16 year old with them.
That more or less proves Jacob did not have any children after 1716, and cannot be Samuels father.
This returns us again to Tobie and Jean Obee/Aube as far and away most likely candidates.
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Hi Auber and Richard
Samuel Auber was NOT born in 1754. He was born in 1750 and baptised in 1750 son of Samuel and Susanna.
He died in Dec 1827 in his late 70s. Maybe Mary was sent to jail and Samuel remarried bigamously in 1743 to Judith Barham but maybe as you said there was a Susan woman but Judith could have been Susan but she disguised her first name to help save face. The record says Samuel was a weaver of Shoreditch and Judith a spinster of Spitalfields. Good hunch of yours Richard and a likely theory. We need to find more on Mary and when she was banged up.
Ben
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Hi Ben
Samuels burial gives a death age 79, so birth date around 1748, but I think he must be the one baptised 1750, as you know burial ages arn't always particularly accurate.
Re "Judith Barham", looking at the original Fleet entry I think it actually reads "Judith Durham".
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I think we have solid on the right baptism for Samuel Jnr. That is settled. Ages at burials were not always accurate plus in 1750 they still used to old calendar until 1752. 2 years out is neither here not there really.
I wonder if we could research a Susan or Judith Durham.
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Susanah Durham Christening 18 Jun 1722 St Giles Cripplegate, London Thomas,
Jane
Possible? Can't find a Judith.
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Susanah Durham Christening 18 Jun 1722 St Giles Cripplegate, London Thomas,
Jane
Possible? Can't find a Judith.
I was just about to post the same thing. I cannot seem to find a likely burial for her or marriage in the LMA records on Ancestry. A Susan Durham was baptised in 1721 in Bermondsey but it looks like she died as a child.
Ben
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I found a Samuel Obay admitted to St Thomas Hospital in 1784 on London Lives of Virginia Row, Bethnal Green.
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Hi Everyone,
Well I've found the CD-Roms on the Society website CD 1 looks good, has anyone looked at the natualisation records to see what they say? I realise I am coming late to this so apologies if this sounds silly!!
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Hi Ben, that is interesting that record of Samuel. Samuel 1750 was in Shoreditch at that time. Perhaps it is the father? Is there any more detail to the record?
Auber, I have checked the denisations and naturaliastions. Gabriel Obe was one of the Huguenots who were granted Naturalisation on the roll of 1709, he appears as "THE MARK OF GABRIEL OWBY (AUBE)." So he was not literate. Jean Auber and his wife Rachel Hue were also naturalised on this roll, as well as Daniel Auber Jean's cousin. These last three are part of the Bolbec Aubers who came in 1687.
No more information for us than that really.
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There is a burial, Sarah Obay 8 Mar 1726 St Dunstan and All Saints. I think this may be Tobie and Jane's daughter b 1722. It has been transcribed as dau of James, but there is no James Auber/Obay having children at that point, I think it should read dau of Jane (the image is very faded). This makes sense because we know Tobie was away at sea. Also of interest this is clearly the burial of a child, but it does have 'pen' on the end, so pen does not mean pensioner as we suspected, of if it does not in the sense of an old aged pensioner.
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Tobias Obay Burial 24 Feb 1726/7 St Dunstan and All Saints
Sarah Obay Burial 8 Mar 1726/7 St Dunstan and All Saints
Jane Obay Burial 5 Apr 1727 St Dunstan and All Saints,
When you factor in the Julian/Gregorian factor, there we have it then, 3 burials (including Jane herself) within 5 weeks which would have been recorded on the 1727/8 Royal Bounty accounts. Matches the info we have.
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So two of them were children, and the other was Jane. So there was one more child of Tobias and Jane still unaccounted for. Am I right?
I felt a shiver when I saw that St Thomas Hospital record. Samuel Obay of Virginia Row, BG. That is just a couple of streets away from Giants Yard where Samuel Jnr lived in 1784.
What are your thoughts on Susan Durham.
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I think those are probably the three burials the account refers to. That does suggest the missing child was a son 'Tobias' rather than Samuel, so a bit dissapointing. That said I wouldn't want to be too hasty in abandoning Tobias and Jane as candidates, they do spell their name similar to Samuels branch, and are having children at the right time, and we know at least one of their children has a baptism that cannot be found. The problem is the Royal Bounty account covers the whole period no exact dates are given. I think the point I am getting at is Samuel could have been born 1720, Tobias 1725, and when she got the 12 shillings it might have been after Tobias had died in Feb 1726/7. So Sarah, Samuel, Elizabeth still alive = 3 children. Without exact dates, we cannot be 100% on this, so can't write them off yet.
Virginia Row as you say, very near where Samuel Auber and Elizabeth were living, its just above the Old Nichol on the Shoreditch border. All the poorer weavers were at that time concentrated in that area. (This also suggests they were not linked to the Boblec branch who were very wealthy by that time). Samuel sr would, if still alive, be 64, so I think it may be him. You'd expect him to be living not far from his son.
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I found this excerpt about the Bolbec Aubers, not really relevent to ours, but interesting because it no doubt shows the way the name was pronounced to English ears:
"Mr Obey, we give you now an Egg Shell of Honey, but if you refuse to comply with the demands of yesterday, we'll give you a Gallon of Thorns to your final Life's End"
This was a poison pen letter/threat sent to Peter Auber, Silk Manufacturer of Spital Square, the great grandson of Jean Auber and Susanne La Moisse, who came over from Bolbec in 1687, during the Spitalfields Weavers Riots of October 1763. He was a particular target of their attentions as he was opposed to improving the weavers rights and conditions.
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We now know that Samuel was probably alive in 1784. We now need to try and find a burial after 1784.
If Samuel was another child, then we are missing baptisms of Tobias and Samuel. It could be they recieved the money after Tobias Jnr died.
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Re Susan Durham, that Cripplegate baptism could be her, but just as equally might not. Since the fleet weddings don't have witnesses names etc to try and link her up to a particular family, I think it will be a difficult to near impossible job to positively identify her. She may not even have been born and baptised in London.
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Could be the same with Elizabeth Newman. She may not have been born in London. That would make it very difficult to identify her.
There is the small chance Susan's parents left a will.
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Hi Ben
I had sub to the Genealogist, with the Canterbury Court Wills etc included but it run out last week, so have to leave that side to you for time being, though yes definently a route worth looking into I'd say.
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Now we need to see if we can find out more on Mary Obey and when she died in 1747. I think it could well be he married irregularly in 1743 when Mary was banged up. I looked on the Old Bailey site but found nothing. Maybe she was tried at another London court.
I wonder how long Samuel Obey was in the St Thomas Hospital for? I am sure it is Samuel born about 1720. Susanna Auber died in 1815 aged 94 and was of Bethnal Green. That is the burial I found at Spitalfields, Christ Church. I am sure it is Susannah the wife of Samuel as it fits and I cannot find another Auber/Obey man with a wife of the name Susannah just Samuel born about 1720.
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ok, thanks for the info. In terms of finding this Samuel Obey/Auber is there any school records that can be checked? I notice there were 4 charity schools in existance around that time? Does anyone have a register? this may have parent info?
Cheers
Paul
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Ben, Had a look at the Old Bailey and 'London Lives' could not find anything for Mary Obey either unfortunately. Whether any other records for prisons exist in London area I do not know, same as for the hospital records, maybe worth enquiring to the LMA? Mind you since so much of their stuff has been put on Ancestry anyway, I suspect we are going to be dissapointed there.
Paul, I'm not 100% up on the school records, I know of the Westminster French Protestant School and the Threadneedle Street Charity School. Which are the other two you are thinking of? The registers of the Threadneedle Charity School have been published fairly recently in the Huguenot Societies proceedings, and unfortunately Samuel is not amongst those. The Westminster Protestant School did not open until fairly late in the overall scheme of things, 1747, so is outside the scope as far as any possible useful information on Samuel Ober/Aube sr is concerned.
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We could still look up school records for Samuel Jnr just out of interest. Might throw more light in Samuel Snr.
Richard you say you have registers of the Charity school. I know you cannot find any Samuel Obeys/Aubers there but are there any Fradin's or Morin's there?
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I imagine if the registers of the Westminster French Protestant School survive they would be at the Huguenot Society Library in Euston. What I do have is the record of pupils apprenticed from that school, and there are no Aubers/Fradins or Morins listed there.
These are the only mentions of your surnames in the Threadneedle Street School registers:
Susanne daughter of Daniel Morin, enrolled 10 Jul 1736.
Madelaine daughter of Daniel Morin, enrolled 6 Jul 1736 .
Daniel son of Daniel Morin, enrolled 8 Sep 1736, died 1738.
Judith daughter of Julian Auber, aged 7, enrolled Oct 1745, left Jan 1750.
Mary daughter of Louis Auber, aged 7, enrolled May 1747, left Feb 1750.
John son of Louis Auber, enrolled 7 May 1749.
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Also I checked through St dunstans page by page 1719-122 and no sign of Samuel. However there are several instances of chidlren being baptised and then the parents leaving before the vicar recorded their details in his register.
One page alone has these two entries:
28 Aug 1720 "one went away from church and gave no name"
4 Sep 1720 "Four or five went from the church without entering their names"
There must be about 10-20 babies in all during the time we are looking for recorded like this, so the vicar there obviously wasn't especially diligent in his duties. This may be why we are having such trouble finding Samuel. Maybe he simple isn't there to be found because his details went unrecorded!
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Hi Richard
Interesting. I have had another look and cannot seem to find any baptisms of children to Samuel and Judith Obey/Obay. I checked children of just as Samuel and Judith and Jud* wildcard but found no obvious things. I do think we could be right in thinking Samuel married bigamously. Samuel and Susan had their first known child in 1749.
I am sure that 1784 hospital admission register refers to Samuel.
Ben
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I have to say the more I think about it, Samuel Obey is unlikely to be related to the Bolbec Aubers who were very rich, just from the areas he was living in, which were where the poorer journeymen weavers lived. I do not believe he can be of the Caen Aubers, because Jacob's 1727/9 royal bounty record almost certainly rules that out. Both these families almost always use the form Auber or Aubert.
Gabriel Aube's line seems the only likelyhood, it is the oldest so most likely to be Anglicised. The Obee/Obe/Aube form seems to best fit them, and I wonder is this because they were from Paris outskirts, rather than Normandy like the other two branches, and it was a regional spelling difference/pronunciation coming into play? We know Tobie and Jean were having children in the right place at the right time. We know they definently had at least one son, Tobie, not recorded on the baptisms, so all their children are not accounted for. We know the church they were using St Dunstan's were recording births irregularly and missing children at this time. The last child they baptised was at St Marys Whitechapel, in 1724 with adress Wentworth Street. The first child Samuel baptised 1740, he spells his surname the same, uses the same church, and gives an address at Bell Yard which is connected to Wentworth Street. He called a son Jacob. Tobie Aube had a brother called Jacob.
Ok, we can't prove it. But balance of probabilites, I think he is their son.
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Hi
Samuel and Susan had 3 children Samuel, Joseph and Susannah Obay 1749, 1750 and 1752. Yes I think the 3 children mentioned in 1728 probably does not refer to son Tobias as he was probably dead by then so there must be another child.
Ben
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Hi Richard
In the meantime I have been doing a bit more on the Fradin family. Francois and Elizabeth had 7 children Francois 1760, Jean 1763, Susanne 1765, Jacques 1767, Pierre 1770, George 1771 and Elizabeth 1775.
Susanna is my direct ancestor and we found George Fradin lived to 1839. However I found a James Fradin buried in July 1768 at St Matthew Bethnal Green and a Francis Fardin buried in March 1765 at the same church plus Elizabeth in April 1782. I think these are the 3 children born 1760, 1767 and 1775.
We are still not 100% sure on the Elizabeth Fradin burial in January 1786 aged 51 of Corbett's Court buried at Christ Church Spitalfields. We do believe this is Elizabeth Fradin nee Morin born in 1732.
Ben
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I nickname Bethnal Green burials as taking place in the "Difficult Parish" because they dont given age or address at burial, just name and date of burial until PRs were standardised in 1813. Plus many pre 1813 burials at Bethnal Green are poorly written and some pages are faded.
Ie I found a Doctors Commons for 1750 which states that Jean Morin, grandfather of Susanna Fradine born 1765 died intestate and I found a burial at BG in February 1750. I then found an Elizabeth Morin burial in 1778 at BG and I believe that to be the wife of Jean Morin whom she wed in 1728. But because there was no age at burial I cannot determine if it is her.
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"I nickname Bethnal Green burials as taking place in the "Difficult Parish" because they dont given age or address at burial, just name and date of burial until PRs were standardised in 1813. Plus many pre 1813 burials at Bethnal Green are poorly written and some pages are faded."
Yes I agree with this Ben, Christchurch Spitalfields, St Leonards Shoreditch, St Dunstan's Stepney and St Mary's Whitechapel all recorded more info on their burials, and are generally neater. One plus on the baptisms though is Bethnal Green often records the fathers occupation, whereas St Leonard's for all it's neatness rarely does, so it is not all bad. Best scenario is the family used both, then you get an adress and an occupation!
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Just to let you know realised I did have the register of admissions to the Westminster French Protestant School this morning, they were published in Volume 4 of the Huguenot Society's proceedings some 115 years ago now. Unfortunately though this has just confirmed that no Aubers, Morins or Fradins were ever pupils at that school.
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Hi Richard
I did mention a Hannah Fradew who was buried in July 1771 at Christ Church of Corbetts Court which is the same street that Elizabeth Fradin died in 1786. Francis and Elizabeth never had a daughter Hannah and this Hannah died aged 20 months making her born about Nov/Dec 1769 and Francis and Elizabeth had a son in March 1770. This Hannah could be a different relation though. I think there was another 1 or 2 Fradins in Spitalfields at the time.
Corbetts Court is near La Patente Spitalfields where the Fradins had their children baptised.
Ben
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Hi Ben
Yes remember this. Couldn't find her baptised at La Patente with their other children either. We know he was close with his Anglicised relatives, Claude and his wife joining the Threadneedle Street Church with him when he came over. Maybe she was a relative somewhow through them, staying with them. That's all I can think.
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Hi Richard
I am doing a biography on a few ancestors. I have done one for Samuel Obey born in 1750. I have done one on Susanne Fradin born in 1765 who wed Dennis Helsdon. I shall be doing one on Samuel Obey Snr and Francis Fradin c1725-1803.
Out of the Fradin children to Francois it seems that only Susan born 1765 and George born 1771 survived. The Elizabeth Fraden burial in 1782 is more likely to be the daughter born 1775. Susan Fradine married Dennis Helsdon in 1784 aged 19, who was an Englishman but George joined the French Church in 1789 as you found out and wed in 1805 and 1827. Even though Susan was baptised at La Patente she later married into an English family.
Also we did find out that Susan and George's father Francis was indeed a French refugee from Moncoutant in France and arrived in London in 1752 and joined the French Church in September 1752.
We then found his admittance to the hospital in 1801 after applying in 1799 aged 75. Admitted Sep 1801 and remained there until his death in June 1803. He was buried at St Matthew Bethnal Green on the 19th June 1803. After his admission date is says (L: Oct.1.) What does that mean?
FRADIN, François. Inmate.
Admitted. Sept. 19, 1801 (L: Oct.l). B/A "at our expense",
died. June 15, 1803.
RA (Date of Application): Oct.26, 1799
"Fradin François Silk Weaver, refugee of Moncoutant in Bas-Poitou, after having been three years in prison for (sake of) Religion, member of the French Church for 49 Years. Suppliants age is 75 and he can no longer work, so he prays you admit him."
Case Certified by L.Mercier, Pastor P. Beuzeville, P Dufour
[at side:] Admitted the 19 Sept " 18O1".
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(L: Oct.1.) What does that mean?.
Not sure Ben, though it should say in the introductionary notes what all the abbreviations mean.
Francis Fradin certainly had an interesting back story, I hope eventually to write a piece myself, using the many families I have researched as case studies, and Francis would no doubt be included. However so many other irons in fires at moment...
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I do know a Peter Fradin wed an Elizabeth Farless in 1748 in Mayfair. he was of Lothbury and she was of St Luke. I dont think she is the Elizabeth Fradin buried in 1786 aged 51 of Corbetts Court as that would have made her only about 14 when she married and I think Peter Fradin was born in 1716 so about 32 when he married. A Peter Fradin is buried at Christ Church Spitalfields in 1769 aged 53 of Flower And Dean Street.
A Peter Fradin was a witness to a Jane Corneau marriage at Christ Church in 1758.
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St Margaret's Lothbury was quite near the French Church in Threadneedle Street, just around the corner to it in fact.
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I am still in the mind that 1786 burial is Francis's wife. It seems their children who died were buried at Bethnal Green but perhaps Elizabeth wanted to be buried at Christ Church. And La Patente was on Browns Lane near Corbett's Court.
A Pierre Fradin was baptised in 1716 at La Patente son of Jacques Fradin and Jeanne.
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I think Christchurch Spitalfields was seen as a better place to be buried, at that time, because the parish was certainly richer at that time than Bethnal Green. Alot of the bigger Silk Weaving Manufacturers had family tombs there. My ancestor specified in her will that she would like to be buried in the family vault at Christchurch 'if possible', but sadly it can't have been, as when she died in 1877 she was laid to rest instead at St Barnabas Homerton. She had no links to that parish, though her husband had been buried not too far away at St John of Jerusalem Hackney. I think there was by that time so little space in the east End graveyards you were lucky to get a burial plot anywhere in the churches.
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My ancestor was buried at St John of Jerusalem Hackney. She died 1st January 1858 and was buried on the 11th.
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I think once Francis was admitted to the French Hospital in 1801 he stayed there until his death in 1803. That is why they list his death date as he must have died in the hospital. 15th June 1803, buried 19th June 1803 at St Matthew, Bethnal Green.
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Hi Ben
Yes that would be right. The Hospital was not a hospital in the regular sense, it was more like a modern care home for the elderly (as indeed it is now). They often waited many years for a place to come free, so would not vacate it lightly. Occasionally in the earlier years they did admit younger patients, I have seen a blind girl admitted there as her parents couldn't care for her, plus several 'alienated in spirit', i.e depressed/mentally ill. But the majority of the patients were there because they were elderly and unable to earn a living, in a time before welfare state could care for them.
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Hi Richard
It seems that Francis had to wait 2 years from his application to his admittance. So I can imagine the demand for a bed far outweighed supply. I would like to know if he had a room himself or if he slept in a ward?
Ben
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I'm not too sure about that Ben. I do know the overall conditions were pretty good in comparison with what was available to the general poor elsewhere, as I have read a report of a local visitor complaining that it was far too luxurious for the likes of the Bethnal Green paupers, quite an ungenerous way of thinking, but I imagine not an uncommon one either for the time. The 18th century building in St Lukes housed 234 inmates, the newer building in Victoria Park from the 1860's onwards housed much less around 60. The current incarnation, old peoples flats in Rochestor has less still just under 40 places.
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I would think Francis lived in Spitalfields when he asked for admission in October 1799 and getting admission in September 1801. Although he was buried in Bethnal Green. Yet when he lived in Spitalfields it does look like they chose Bethnal Green as a place of burial for children that died in infancy.
I do think the Elizabeth Fraden buried in 1782 at Bethnal was the daughter born 1775 in Spitalfields.
I take it you have not found out any more on the Aubers/Obey's Richard?
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I don't think any of mine were buried at Spitalfields in the 19th century, it may be that it was already getting full? There is an excellent book 'Life and Death in Spitalfields', about the graveyard there as the graves were all excavated about a decade back with great care by an archealogical team as part of the renovation process. Christchurch Spitalfields was at one point listed to be demolished, in the late 60's early 70's, but the local commmunity succesfully campaigned to save it, and a 30 year renovation process, costing 10 million pounds in all, was started to restore it to it's original state, which was finally completed last week, and it has now at last fully opened again for use.
Also re the French Hospital and the wait for a place, if they were in urgent need, ie every ill, no family etc they were placed on catogary A, priority, and some very lucky ones were admitted very quickly. There would also be an element of luck, if you could call it that, in as much as a place could become free with death of an existing patient. However most went onto catogary B, and could wait up to 7 to 8 years, so 2 years is not that bad. Quite a few died on the list before a place became free. Two things would have aided Francis, being born in France, he was unlikely to have had parish settlement in Bethnal Green or Spitalfields, and to be eligable for the local parochial relief system, and secondly he was a 'confessor' having spent 3 years in prison for the faith in France. They would be very unlikely to turn someone like that away.
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Francis Fradin married at Bethnal Green in 1759 so that may be why he had his children buried there and he was buried there in 1803. His daughter Susanna who wed in 1784 had her children in Bethnal Green.
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It is unusual for someone who died at the French Hospital to be buried at St Matthews, usually the patients were buried, at the hospitals expense (being paupers) at St Lukes, Old Street which was on their doorstep. This might suggest Francis did have a specific wish to be buried there, and/or someone else paid for it?
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Yes I mean the evidence is there in black and white. Francis died in the hospital and was buried at Bethnal Green. His daughter moved away to Northants for a while by 1814 but she may have paid for it or he asked to be buried there. You never know he may even have left a will.
I have to say I am 99.9% sure the Samuel Obey who was admitted to St Thomas in 1784 is mine. Right area he was living beforehand. It gives us scope to find his burial now knowing he died after 1784. I am highly doubtful it is someone else. There is a very small chance but I dont think it is someone else.
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It is strange his burial is missing at around same time period the children of Samuel Auber+Elizabeth Newmans burials are also missing. Maybe they were buried at the same place.
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We need to try and find what independent burial ground they used as it would complete the picture. That is the trouble with London burials, they can be very hard to trace. They were not buried at Bunhill so they must have been buried at another independent graveyard.
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Probably not remotely connected but just in case.... I came across this whilst looking for any history to do with my house here in Moncoutant, in the hamlet of le Plessis!! I do know someone called Michaud, and also it would be no trouble for me to pop round to one of the local cemeteries to see if there is anything that would help you in your research. i am a very amateur genealogist, and you seem to be quite pro..but hey ho the offer is there should you need it. Regards
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Not found much on the Obey's since although FindMyPast has a few more records online. I have found RichardE79's info he has on the Ogier's of Montcoutant. Louis Ogier baptised in 1726 in Montcoutant son of Pierre Ogier and Jeanne Rabaud. Louis wed in 1751 to a Catherine and their son Louis Ogier baptised 18 June 1753 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot, London was the direct rellie of 36th American President Lyndon Baines Johnson.
My Francis Fradin was the same age virtually as Louis Ogier baptised in 1726. Both born in Montcoutant. As said there may be a link if I go back.
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Owing to lack of acknowledgement I withdraw my offer. I have little time anyway and what I have is precious. One lives and learns of course. It's MONCOUTANT, not MONTCOUTANT
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Hi froggy79
Apologies if you feel as contributers to this thread we failed to suitably acknowledge your contribution. I do not personally have any ancestors in Moncoutant, and have since moved on to several other projects since last year. It was indeed a kind offer, though ultimately I think you would likely have been on a fruitless errand anyway, according to this site http://huguenotsinfo.free.fr/cimetieres/alpha.htm the only existant Protestant cemetery dates from 1858, so well after the date of the Huguenot emigrees to London. This of course is unsuprising as virtually all Huguenot burials during the relevent time 1680-1780 were of a clandestine nature due to the illegality of practising the forms and rituals of the faith in France at this time. I know there are a few surviving 'hidden' burial grounds from this time dotted across France, but they are a rarity, the exception rather than the rule.
Thanks again for your input froggy, and apologies again for any perceived rudeness towards yourself, not intended at all.
Regards
Richard
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Thank you
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Update on Fradin family.
The Hannah Fradin buried in 1771 in Spitalfields looks like the same person who was baptised at Endell Street Holborn in November 1769. Hannah Fredrin daughter of Henry and Elizabeth Fredrin. Fredrin is probably a mistake for Fradin. Henry was a shoemaker and they lived at St James Westminster.
When Hannah was buried they lived at Corbett's Court, Spitalfields and an Elizabeth Fradain was buried there in January 1786 aged 51. So that is probably the wife of Henry.
A Henry Fradin was admitted to the French Hospital in 1799 and of the same place my Francis was from, Moncoutant En Bas Poitou.
As my Francis and Elizabeth Fradin had children baptised at La Patente Spitalfields in the Corbett's Court vicinity, it could be they also lived at Corbett's Courts.
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I have found some more info on the Fradins as a lot of London Land Tax records have just come online.
A Francis Fradin is listed as a tenant at a house in James Street, Bethnal Green from 1780 to 1785.
A Samuel Obey/Obay is listed at Virginia Row, Bethnal Green from 1780 to 1803. He disappears after that. This has to be the same Samuel who was admitted to St Thomas Hospital in Lambeth in 1784 of Virginia Row.
And we know Susannah Auber was buried in 1815 at Christ Church Spitalfields of Bethnal Green aged 94.
I know the Francis Fradin of James Street, bethnal Green has to be my ancestor, the French immigrant who was the father of Susannah Fradin born 1765. So Susannah would have lived at James Street, Bethnal Green until she wed Dennis Helsdon in 1784.
From 1791 to 1796 a Francis Fradin is listed as a tenant at a house in White Horse Street, Stepney. I am sure it is my Francis. Maybe he went to live with a relative but thwne he was admitted to the French Hospital in 1801 he was of Bethnal Green. He may have moved back. I am sure it is the same man.
The Francis Fradin born 1731 died in 1793 in London city and is listed as living there in the registers.
Samuel Obey must have died about 1804.
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I found Samuel Obey living in Norton Folgate sometime in 1752 and Dunnings Alley, Bishopsgate in 1766 and 1767. My ancestor Samuel lived in Gravel Lane Aldgate in late 1752 when his son was buried, Joseph son of Samuel and Susannah Obey. I dont know when in 1752 those land tax records were compiled.
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Hi Ben
Francis Fradin is still at New James Street, Bethnal Green from 1785-89 but he is misspelt as 'Fardin'. He was neighbours there with my own ancestors the Bellengers and Deverdines who lived there from 1780-95, all of them tennants of Henry Busby Esq.
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I'm pretty sure Francis Fradin is at the same adress too for the earliest Bethnal Green tax book ancestry have up 1767. He is listed there as 'Frans Fardain' but the neighbours names are the same Descarriers, Soberine, Gosline, Bouchard etc.
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Hi Richard.
A Francis Fradin is then listed at White Horse Street, Stepney from 1791 to 1796. I am sure that is my Francis as he vanishes from the Bethnal Green rolls after 1789.
The 1767 one lists him at Thomas Street South, Bethnal Green. This would probably be the south side of Thomas Street. This would probably be the street where Susannah was born in 1765, his daughter.
It will be the same Francis Fradin in the 1767, 1780-1789 registers and I am sure it is the same man in the 1791-1796 registers at Stepney. The distant relative born 1731 in London died in 1793 and lived in the City.
And Samuel Obey is listed in the 1805 rolls at Virgina Row, Bethnal Green so he died about then or 1806.
Ben
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Hi Richard.
Is your ancestor Timothy Deverdine? He was a few doors down from my ancestor Francis Fradin. Small world.
I have checked further and it seems from 1786 to 1789 the Fradins, Descarriers, Deverdines were at Thomas Street South again. But from 1780 to 1781 you have to go back a few pages to find James Street as the last street listed.
My thesis is they forgot to write down Thomas Street, making it appear to be James Street. Thomas Street was much shorter than James Street thus less houses.
Yes in 1767 Francis Fradin is at Thomas Street next to the Descarriers. If you go to the very last pages you will see a date. June 1767 and the 1783 ones was June 1783. So they seem to be compiled in May or June.
Ben
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Hi Ben
I have Timothy's address in independant sources from 1786-90 as New James Street, So I think it is still the same street, after all they would have been unlikely to have moved together en masse it's perhaps a mistake in the tax books themselves which suggests they are in Thomas Street.
Richard
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In my mind I still think it is Thomas Street they lived in and New James Street may have been another name for the street.
Are your New James Street sources from other records?
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Hi Ben
Yes these are from other sources, one is an apprenticeship for his 14 year old son dated 1786 which gives their adress as 'New James Street' and later one of his daughters who was born in 1790 died in the French Hospital and also gave her place of birth as 'New James Street'. Perhaps 'Thomas Street' became 'New James Street' sometimes before 1786? There is a website somewhere with the change of London street names on it but I can't seem to source the link.
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In the 1786 ones I have just read that on the previous page to the Fradins and Deverdines it says "James Street, south end, east and west" then our ancestors page says "Thomas Street South".
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Today on Ancestry in one of the burial ledgers for when Samuel Auber died in 1827 at the bottom it said "Ground for Mr Aubers family vault". St Dunstan Stepney has its burial registers on Ancestry but also the burial ledgers. I never knew the Aubers had a family vault.
I dont know if this means he bought it then or it was just mentioned when Samuel died. I have been trying to find the burial of his wife Elizabeth Auber nee Newman so wonder if this could be where she is also buried.
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Greetings everyone.
I wanted to ask whether these Aubé are related my own Aubé?
I'm a descendant of Jacques Aubé, of Beauville, Basse Normandie and his wife Magdelaine Moutier.
It was via their son David Aubé/Auber and his wife Jeanne Riviere's daughter Louise Aubé (born circa 1693) that I link in.
Louise Aubé married Louis Cressé (the family had various spellings of the name including Cresset) on 8 August 1714. Louis Cressé was actually born in London on 1 June 1689 but his father was Daniel Cressé (born 1651 in Paris and died about 1714 in London).
Any assistance linking my Aubé's (if they are indeed related) to those mentioned in this thread would be welcome.
I also note mention of the Moncoutant contingent. If my research is correct, then I have a Jeanne Aubé (daughter of Jacques Aubé and Magdelaine Moutier above) marrying Daniel Michaux of Moncoutant and Poitou.
Best regards,
James
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Also at the marriage of Tobie's sister in 1708, one of the witnesses was a Daniel Micheaux/Michaud of Moncoutant. He also married an Aube, Jean, possible another of Tobie's sisters. She gives her place of origin as 'Beau' in the Il-de-France. There are a couple of place names Beauvais and Beaurepais, which are just south of Plessis-Mornay which she may be referring to.
As mentioned in my other comment, this is Beauville, in Basse Normandie.
However the only Beauville I've found is in Lot-et-Garonne, which is not in Normandie.
Edit: it could also be Deauville in Calvados.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deauville
As other Aubé's seem to be from Caen, it'd make sense if Beauville was in fact near Caen.
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I also note mention of the Moncoutant contingent. If my research is correct, then I have a Jeanne Aubé (daughter of Jacques Aubé and Magdelaine Moutier above) marrying Daniel Michaux of Moncoutant and Poitou.
As noted elsewhere, Jeanne Aubé could also be the sister of Tobie.
It's difficult to unpick all the Aubés.
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Hi
The earliest I have proven my Auber/Obey line was Samuel Auber born c1720 who is the possible son of Tobias Obey and Jane Rigg of Whitechapel. Never come across Aube as a variant in my line but it is possible.
No connection to the wealthier Westminster Auber's has even been found (Isaac Auber, Peter Abraham Auber etc).
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Evening Coombs,
I've now read the whole thread and it has allowed me to re-assess my own Aubé/Aubers a bit. I am unsure why I linked my David Aubé/Auber as the son of Jacques Aubé and Magdelaine Moutier, as I have no dates for David. All I know is he apparently married Jeanne Riviere (I have no further information about her).
David and Jeanne had two daughters, viz.
1. Jeanne Aubé, of Caen. She married Jean Le Sage/Lesage, of Caen on 19 July 1710 at Threadneedle Street. They had at least 3 known children.
2. Louise Aubé, of Caen (my ancestor). She married Louis Cressé (born 1 June 1689, chr. 1 Dec. 1689, Threadneedle Street) on 8 August 1714, Chapel of the Hospital, Threadneedle Street. They had at least 7 children.
I haven't seen David Aubé/Auber's name mentioned in this thread but as his two daughters were of Caen, then he could belong to the Beauville line, as I have in my tree.
I do not have any access to the Huguenot Society records, so there maybe further about David Aubé/Auber in there.
James
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There is a website somewhere with the change of London street names on it but I can't seem to source the link.
This might be what you were thinking of, but the changes are too recent for this topic. 1857-1929 and 1929-1945. Perhaps useful for someone else.
https://www.maps.thehunthouse.com/Streets/Street_Name_Changes.htm
Tilly
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In the 1780s going by those Land Tax books, you could tell Bethnal Green still had many Huguenot surnames, as this was 100 years after the first major wave of Huguenot immigrants, although there were more waves in the early 1700s and a small wave in the early 1750s, of which Francois Fradin, my ancestor was among them.
Susan Fradin, my 5xgreat gran born 1765 married Norwich born weaver Dennis Helsdon in May 1784 when she was 19. She was about 7 months pregnant when she wed Dennis.
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My Cressé/Cressee ancestors were also in Bethnal Green around the same time but they moved about a bit too.
David Cressé (a Weaver) for example was christened in Spitalfields, married in Portsmouth, then had his first child with his wife in Portsea before moving to Bethnal Green about 1748/9. By 1759 he had his son George christened at St. Botolph Bishopsgate, London before finally settling down in Edmonton where he died in 1787.
His son David Cressé/Cressey was born in Bethnal Green, married in Shoreditch and then moved to Winchmore Hill/Edmonton where he died in 1838.
My Hold family who married into the Cressé (David above's sister Hannah Cressé) also ended up in Winchmore Hill/Edmonton.
However the elder David Cressé's brother Isaac Cressé ended up in Jamaica whilst two of David Cressé Junior's daughters ended up married to brothers of the Winter family one of whom ended up in Ceylon/Sri Lanka.