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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: Genieologist on Wednesday 03 November 10 18:07 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am a descendant of William Jollie (spelled Jolly/Jolley in Ireland) and Margaret Sadlier (Sadler) of Croghan, Killapogge, Roscommon County.
William was born about 1819 and Margaret was born 8 Aug 1841. William was married first to Annie. We don't know her maiden name.
Son James encouraged and helped his family members to immigrate to North Dakota where he was First Sergeant at Ft Totten and where he met his wife, Marie Belgarde, a member of the Turtle Mountain Tribe and who actually translated for Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse at some point. James was a "Winner of the West" and had his own story to tell. Their story is a very interesting one and is kept alive today by family members in ND.
My own ancestor, his sister, came over with another sister at age 16 and made their way to ND while other family members made their way separately. The family did leave some members behind and certainly there must have been other relations who stayed behind.
Some family members have been to Croghan and seemed to have identified the family hearth--a small cottage. In fact, as of the last reunion, they told us that they saw a picture of William and Margaret still in the home! I would like to see this for myself.
We know that they leased property from Guy Lloyd, the major landowner in the area, but we do not know much else except they were probably members of the C of I.
We would love to find information that would lead us to William's family and Margaret's as well as the identity of Annie, the first spouse.
We know that twins Kate and Emma were born 7 May 1873 and were buried in the Croghan, Killapogge area as infants. Their births were registered in the Ballinameen Registrar's District.
Brothers George (b. 1857) and William (1855-1885) were in the English service and it's not known if they were buried near home. George died in service. William didn't fare much better.
We would love to know where these family members are buried as well.
Hopefully, someone in the Croghan area itself or a local amateur historian will have other information to add as they read this.
Robert
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Have you checked the free on line Irish Census? There is a family of Sadliers in Croghan in 1901. Sadliers in 1911 still in Roscommon.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a9y/
There are a few Jollys in Roscommon in 1901 and 19ll too.
PM
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In Griffiths valuation c.1854:
Sadler John Enagh Killukin Roscommon
Sadler William Enagh Killukin Roscommon
Sadlier John Croghan Killukin Roscommon
Enagh and Croghan are Townlands - Kilukin the Parish.
Forgot to say the Sadlier in the 1911 in croghan is C of I.
Maybe you have been down this route?
Might be useful to give info on what research you have done? PM
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Wow!
What a quick response.
I did a quick look at your link and looked at the family in Croghan headed by Thomas and Kate. Thomas is a couple of years older than Margaret Sadlier, my person of interest. Thomas is almost certainly a brotherand the names of three of the children are identical or similar to Margaret's children.
Another fascinating bit of info is the age difference between husband and wife (62 and 46). Margaret was also very young compared to her husband William Jollie (Jolley/Jolly). This may mean nothing, but it may reflect mores of the time.
I had not been down this route before and was unaware of the online archival information. I had done quite a few searches in the past with no good leads. Kudos and thank you.
The Enagh reference is a bit unusual for me. I'm not sure exactly what it refers to. I think they say "townland/street" in the census. Very good stuff.
In general, I have not found a wealth of information on the residents in the area of Croghan. I did, like you found some references to Sadliers in Griffith's online info, but there's not a lot of context.
Thanks again for some great leads.
Robert
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Hi There,
If you go to the Irish Resources section of this site, you will find a lot of useful info about parishes and townlands.
When you get this kind of disparity in ages by husband and wife in ireland, there are two possibilities - it was not unusual for a man to marry someone much younger, for reasons to do with land and family. Quite often, a widower would marry a second time very quickly, for childcare reasons, and the second wife was often very young.
To put it simply, Enagh is part of a wider parish called Croghan, which wouldhave several other townlands. If you google "Sadlier + Enagh + Roscommon" you will see they are still farming there today. If you can't find it, I'll send you a link.
Do ask again if you need more help... or cant make sense of this townland business - but a letter to the living Sadliers might be your best short cut to the info you want !PM
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Hi Pastmagic,
Thanks for all your great advice and suggestions. Sometimes, a person can't see the forest for the trees.
I found Jollys as well, but they seemed to Roman Catholic, which I wouldn't have expected. I expected C of I.
However, my ancestor who came to America with her sister at age 16
married RC, so I wouldn't be surprised that this happened with the parents as well. I do seem to remember that the Catholic Church in Croghan was dual-purpose and was used for C of I services too. So, maybe folks in Croghan weren't rigid with regard to their religious views.
Her brother James Jollie also married RC in America, so we know the family could not have been too rigid.
The folks in Croghan may be able to enlighten those of us who know little about their history in this regard.
There's no need to add to this thread at this time, Past Magic. Your help is very much appreciated.
Robert
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Hunting the web for Sadlier Croghan I came upon this. I have just found out my great grandmother's maiden name was Mary Sadlier and she is listed in the 1901 census as being born in Croghan. 52 years old at the time, so date of birth likely 1849 (in the midst of the famine). Does this tie in with any of the information available to you? She was C of I, and married a James McKay Smith of Bray. She was not married in Bray, so this is another problem to resolve. Any pointers would be of interest.
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Is this them
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fun/
marriage 1866
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/4c2ecf0575771
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-45-3-19-054
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her sister Rebecca
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/905bdc0575896
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-45-3-19-117
children born Bray and Westmeath.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fuo/
1901 ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSZZ-M85
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A marriage for son John David ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJX-3KZ
a son
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGWZ-4JR
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It sure is - everything matches - we knew he didn't get married in Bray, and Dublin would have been a best guess. They did move back to Bray, where all their 9 children were born between 1868 and 1885. Many thanks for this. I note info as well on Rebecca, which interestingly was also the name she gave one of her 7 daughters born 1874. Very many thanks - and now I know her father's name, there is another hint to follow. Brilliant !!!
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wonder could her mother be Rebecca
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Interesting thought about Rebecca. They did recycle names a lot, at least in the Bray family. Mary's first daughter was also Mary, her second was Elizabeth (after her paternal grandmother), third was Jane (after a paternal aunt), then Rebecca who died young in 1880, then Margaret (no antecedant that I am aware of), then Constance Eva Rebecca (the Rebecca likely being a nostalgic throw-back to her sister who died the year before she was born, and who appears as Rebecca in the 1901 and 1911 censuses), and finally Anne Alice (after another paternal aunt). As to the boys, I am aware of five different Samuels, four different Williams and four different James, two of whom had the middle name McKay. all of which makes for a very confusing family tree - then add to that most of them had the last name Smith. Sadlier is a nice change.
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may help with your research
Alfred Charters and Ada Warburton
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fvq/
Rebecca Charters born Sadlier
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fvr/
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Thanks for the leads. I would be very interested if you could give me leads going backwards to Mary's and Rebecca's father (James, a tenant farmer, very likely a tenant of Guy Lloyd who I have found in Burkes Peerage) in Croghan, Co Roscommon. Mary was born c1849 in Croghan. So far that search has not yielded fruit. I'm thinking that the records are very sparse, but then I'm no expert at this.
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http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/#
Tenant James Sadlier year 1858
Landlord Hugh East
Parish Kilronan
Townland Alderford
Place name Village of Ballyfarnan
http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/B/Ballyfarnon-Boyle-Roscommon.php
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Hmm i wonder
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FT32-QPV
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Obviously I have been looking in the wrong places, but given the very few times I have come across the name James Sadlier, both of these seem possible. Thank you.
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Hi Dave-at-london
I live in Ireland and have made contact with Genieologist recently who posted above on Sadlier/Jollie links via ancestry but only just picked up on the detail of your post about Mary Sadlier and James McKay Smith.
They are my greatgrandparents as well and I have a good deal of information about their children and their descendants. But there are 2 children I know less about - William b 1868, m Ellen Paul in Bray 1892 and thereafter nothing. It's a common name and I suspect they went to the UK. The other is James b 1886 who I know went to the UK, lived in Newmarket and was involved with the horse breeding industry.
I'd love to know your connection to Mary S - mine is that Anne Alice was my grandmother, her sons were James and Frank, my Dad, who's 95 and still in good health (and pretty good memory).
I'd love to hear from you.
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James John born 1885 was my grandfather, went to UK in 1920s with his wife Edith May Taylor and three children all born in Adare Co Limerick. Elizabeth, Alan (my father) and Maurice. They lived in Newmarket and he was a horse breeding consultant. My understanding is he was persona non grata in Adare (I think because he was a land agent's employee - rent collector). William was the oldest of the family, and had a twin sister, Mary. I have a lot of information on the Smith family in Bray from data in St Paul's churchyard, so I can go back to the 1790s or so. I would very much like to know how you fit in the picture. I have very little information on the offspring of the brothers and sisters of my grandfather, other than that supplied to me by Bruce Chandler who met with me in Bray in 2015. It wasn't until after I met him I found the maiden name of Mary Sadlier. My guess is it would be a lot easier if we could communicate directly, but I'm not sure if the rules allow us to do that. I live in London, Ontario, Canada. Are you able to make a quick call to Canada 011 519 471-7219 to make more meaningful contact? Or am I violating the rules by suggesting that. I suspect we might be able to supply each other with a lot of data.
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no 5
Eveylyn 1899 at Castle St,Bray
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/02009/1772014.pdf
Eileen Violet 1904 same address
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01807/1708126.pdf
there may be others 1892 to 1898 where the maiden name is not listed,there are 83 Smith birth's in Rathdown between the above dates
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I didn't know Ellen's maiden name, which you say is Paul. I have marriage date as 1893 based on something in the 1911 census. Five children, one died very young and no name given. There was a son - another James McKay (named after his grandfather) born c1894, Mabel Ellen born c1896, Ethel c1900 and Eileen c1905. It is a mystery to me where the middle name McKay came from. I was thinking it might suggest other places to look for ancestors, but nothing in the Bray records I could find gave a hint. The original James McKay and Mary Sadlier were married in Dublin - not in Bray - and I guess he worked there for a while. The Smiths of Bray really were smiths by profession, and quite well-off judging by the property they owned. After they married he returned to the family business in Bray, where he died when my grandfather was very young. So my grandfather was a spoiled brat (I have been told) surrounded by older sisters and a mother - his only brother William having left home, probably before James John was born. Is any of this a help to you?
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on the index Elen's name is transcribed as Pane though the marriage cert show's Paul 1892
213 here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1892/10652/5880999.pdf
possible marriage for Eileen Violet from Belton House,Bray dtr of William Smith a Farrier 1941 to a William George Thorpe
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1941/08815/5187359.pdf
Googling Belton House list's it as 2 Castle St,Bray
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William died 1928 if right man son James informant
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1928/04963/4351135.pdf
Ellen 1937
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1937/04791/4288212.pdf
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Bray_No_1/Belton_Terrace/891018/
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Bray_Town/Castle_Street/1810953/
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These are the daughters I see for James McKay Smith and Mary Sadlier:
Mary, William's twin 1868
Elizabeth Anne 1870
Jane 1872
Rebecca Emma 1874 died 1880
Margaret 1879
Constance Eva Rebecca 1881 (sometimes referred to as Rebecca, having been born just after her elder sister's death). I have her marrying an Edward Horne, and it appears her mother lived with her in her later years.
Anne Alice born 1893, and something in my grandfather's records give a date of death as 1965, two years before his death.
So is Eileen Violet being suggested as William's youngest child? and is Eveylyn (spelling?) the unnamed child who died very young? My first thought was these were being suggested as siblings of James John and William, but the dates suggest I was misreading the intention.
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Bruce Chandler showed me Belton House, which I would describe as a family compound at 2 Castle Street. Yes this is the same thing. It's easy to imagine the present buildings being home to several branches of the same family. And they were all blacksmiths - farriers. In those days putting shoes on horses and making metal carts was the equivalent to being a car dealer today I suspect. Quite a lucrative living.
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William Valentine Smith died age 6wks 1898 Pneumonia son of a Farrier informant father Wiliam Smith ,Castle St
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05822/4648662.pdf
birth
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02097/1799136.pdf
P S
I think Ethel and Evelyn are the same child
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Hey there! I am searching for the exact same Ancestors... William Jolly & Margaret Sadlier. Did you make any progress at all finding their parents?
I did find Margaret's birth record with a James Sadlier listed, and I see that is the same name on all these other record findings in this post. I am guessing that Mary & Rebecca may be her sisters?
No luck on the Jolly line at all..
Thanks!