RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: joboy on Thursday 11 November 10 22:27 GMT (UK)
-
The vessel 'JOHN' from London 1840
departed Gravesend on September 12th, 1839
with Captain Alexander Smith,
arrived Port Adelaide on February 5th, 1840
and on arrival on board were;
BELL, Ann and children Sarah, Frances
BELL, Isaiah Born 1827 Wainfleet St Mary, Lincolnshire, England
BELL, John
BELL, Joseph
BELL, Moses Born 1834 Wainfleet St Mary, Lincolnshire, England
I think Ann's husband had just recently died and she was joining up with family already in OZ.
Can anyone advise on the ages of children Sarah,Frances,John and Joseph?
joboy
-
Hi
Just adding ANN's husband would appear to be WILLIAM :D
Sue
-
IGI has these baptisms with parents William BELL and Ann
Some entries have been submitted by members of the LDS church and thus may not be reliable .
Extract entries are from local church or other records. Some of this family have both types of record.
Benjamin Providence BELL - submitted entry
Birth: 19 MAR 1820 Wainfleet, , Lincoln, England
Death: 26 AUG 1893 Cootamundra, New South Wales, Australia
Father: William BELL Family
Mother: Ann PARKER
Azuba Maria BELL - another submitted entry
Birth: 21 OCT 1821 Wainfleet St Mary'S, , Lincoln, England
Death: 1903 Cootamundra, New South Wales, Australia
Parents:
Father: William BELL Family
Mother: Ann PARKER
There is also an extracted entry which gives her baptism date as 21 OCT 1822 at Wainfleet Saint Mary, Lincoln,
Isaiah BELL (submitted entry)
Birth: JUL 1827 Wainfleet St Mary'S, , Lincoln, England
Death: 27 JAN 1860 Clarendon Near, Richmond, New South Wales, Australia
Burial: 29 JAN 1860 Richmond, New South Wales, Australia
Father: William BELL Family
Mother: Ann PARKER
There is an extract entry which gives his baptism as 12 FEB 1827 Wainfleet Saint Mary, Lincoln, England
Elizabeth OR Eliza BELL (submitted entry)
Birth: 05 JUL 1829 Wainfleet,St Mary, , Lincoln, England
Father: William BELL Family
Mother: Ann PARKER
MARIA BELL -
baptism 2 JUL 1818 Wainfleet Saint Mary, Lincoln, England - extract entry
MOSES BELL -
baptism 28 APR 1834 Wainfleet Saint Mary, Lincoln, England - extract entry.
Joseph BELL,
baptism 18 MAY 1828, Wainfleet-St Mary, Lincoln, England - extract entry
This list does not correspond exactly with your list - perhaps some of them were baptised with one name but used another? Some of them may have come separately - Azuba and Benjamin for example.
Judith
-
Hi
Just adding ANN's husband would appear to be WILLIAM :D
Sue
You are quite correct Sue it was indeed William
Joe
-
Just to try to 'join the dots' ...... this is the first part of the family to arrive in OZ.
.......................................................................................................................
On board the Andromache when she disembarked at Port Jackson on 31 January 1839 were;
William Anderson 24 farm servant from Lincolnshire.
His wife 22 unnamed from Lincolnshire.
Benjamin Bell 20 farm servant unmarried from Lincolnshire.
Maria Bell 17 sister to Benjamin unmarried from Lincolnshire.
Thomas Pascoe 27 Brewer from Cornwall.
His wife 23 unnamed from Cornwall.
Fanny 23 his sister unmarried.
Benjamin probably struck up a shipboard romance with Fanny Pascoe as the married that same year in NSW and the reference for the marriage is; V1839168 23B/1839
Benjamin and Fanny had the following children all born NSW.
William 1841
George D 1842
George P 1843
John 1852
Edwin 1855
............................................................
Maria (above) was Azuba Maria ........ I think
Joe
-
Benjamin and Fanny had the following children all born NSW.
William 1841
George D 1842
George P 1843
John 1852
Edwin 1855
Just a comment on the children in NSW to BENJAMIN and FANNY.
On BDM NSW there are a number life events to other probable offspring of the couple which may be worth your looking at.
This one I think would be very likely the right parents..
Birth
Reg.7293 In 1868
BELL, AZUBA C.
Father BENJAMIN
Mother FRANCES
At BRAIDWOOD
There are a number of others including a SOPHIA who went on to have 14 children after her marriage.
Sue
-
Just a comment on the children in NSW to BENJAMIN and FANNY.
On BDM NSW there are a number life events to other probable offspring of the couple which may be worth your looking at.
This one I think would be very likely the right parents..
Birth
Reg.7293 In 1868
BELL, AZUBA C.
Father BENJAMIN
Mother FRANCES
At BRAIDWOOD
There are a number of others including a SOPHIA who went on to have 14 children after her marriage.
Sue
Benjamin (1) married Frances (Fanny) Pascoe 1839 as I said in #4 and their son Benjamin (2) born 1848 married Frances Barker 1867 Braidwood NSW and Azubah C b 1868 that you found was of this generation.
I have 'nailed down' most of the family in NSW but what I really need to know is 'can anyone advise on the ages of children Sarah,Frances,John and Joseph who arrived with Ann on the vessel 'John' in 1840?.
BELL Mrs William nee Ann PARKER (w), Isaiah, Joseph, Moses arrived in SA 1840-02-05 on vessel 'John' from London 1839-09-12
The passenger list shows the following;
BELL, Ann and children Sarah, Frances
BELL, Isaiah Born 1827 Wainfleet St Mary, Lincolnshire, England
BELL, John
BELL, Joseph
BELL, Moses Born 1834 Wainfleet St Mary, Lincolnshire, England
.................................................................................
Joe
-
Benjamin and Fanny had the following children all born NSW.
William 1841
George D 1842
George P 1843
John 1852
Edwin 1855 JOBOY Reply #4
and their son Benjamin (2) born 1848 married Frances Barker 1867 Braidwood NSW and Azubah C b 1868 that you found was of this generation. JOBOYReply # 6
You actually had not mentioned him (BENJAMIN 2), and I had not spotted him either. ;D
Hoping some immigration experts are able to find what you want.
Sue
-
Joseph BELL,
baptism 18 MAY 1828, Wainfleet-St Mary, Lincoln, England - extract entry
Obviously this is not his actual birthdate, however given that Moses was baptised in 1834 and Isiah in 1827 it woudl seem probable that 1828 is close.
I could not see the other children - Frances, Sarah and John - on IGI.
Edit to add:
One image for the Andromache has Benjamin's sister as Maria BELL
Another image for the list of single women on the Andromache shows:
Azeba (sic) BELL, 17, Nurserymaid, Lincolnshire, can read & write, imported by Mr Marshall
The third image shows
Azuba BELL, all other infor the same, states she is daughter of William BELL, farmer of Wainfleet. Her names seems to have been written as Aziba and the 'i' overwritten with a 'u'.
Judith
-
Sources for SA Shipping 1836-1842 compiled by G Jaunay have the following
BELL Ann 34y, dairywoman, and two sons 11y & 4y (not named)
Application #5950, Embarkation #3447
BELL Isaiah 15y
Applic #5949, Emb #3448
BELL John 35y
Applic #5951, Emb #3449
No mention of Frances and Sarah. Neither are ages a match with what has been posted in other replies.
Essie
-
Sources for SA Shipping 1836-1842 compiled by G Jaunay have the following
BELL Ann 34y, dairywoman, and two sons 11y & 4y (not named)
Application #5950, Embarkation #3447
BELL Isaiah 15y
Applic #5949, Emb #3448
BELL John 35y
Applic #5951, Emb #3449
No mention of Frances and Sarah. Neither are ages a match with what has been posted in other replies.
Essie
Thank you Essie it all helps ....... perhaps you did not see this site which lists the Bell folk from Lincs?
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1840John.htm
Joe
-
Yes Joe, I did see that webpage but it is at odds with records that give application and embarkation numbers.
Essie
EDIT: Errors on passenger lists are not uncommon
-
As Essie has just added, these lists are full of errors -sometimes the family gave the wrong info to fit with what is required by whoever is assisting them. Sometimes it is just poor transcription either by the original shipping list writers or by folk transcribing from the lists.
Some of the entries for this family are entirely possible, especially when you remember that the ship left in 1839 so most birthdates would need to use 1839 as the base date - hope this makes sense!! For example - Isiah is shown on a submitted IGI entry with a birthdate of 1827 which would make him 13 in 1839, however he was possibly shown as 15 as he could be counted as an employable single male.
Where did this family go to? Did they all go to NSW to be with the earlier family?
Does anyone have access (or a reference) to the actual records as the quotes here seem as though they may be from transcription sites?
Judith
-
As Essie has just added, these lists are full of errors -sometimes the family gave the wrong info to fit with what is required by whoever is assisting them. Sometimes it is just poor transcription either by the original shipping list writers or by folk transcribing from the lists.
Some of the entries for this family are entirely possible, especially when you remember that the ship left in 1839 so most birthdates would need to use 1839 as the base date - hope this makes sense!! For example - Isiah is shown on a submitted IGI entry with a birthdate of 1827 which would make him 13 in 1839, however he was possibly shown as 15 as he could be counted as an employable single male.
Where did this family go to? Did they all go to NSW to be with the ealier family?
Does anyone have access (or a reference) to the actual records as the quotes here seem as though they may be from transcription sites?
Judith
I agree with both you Judith and with Essie ......... the more I study passenger lists I get the distinct impression that the originals were done in haste and without much care to detail.
I do know that they did not stay in SA and can find no evidence that the vessel 'John' also sailed on to Sydney.
What I do have are transcriptions of;
William Bell 29 April 1841 s/o Benjamin and Fanny Bell (maiden name not stated) at Richmond NSW
Henry Bell 28 Aug 1842 (same detail as for William 1841)
Ester Bell 6 June 1846 (same detail as for William 1841)
Benjamin Bell 25 Dec 1850 (same detail as for William 1841)
Mary Ann Bell 25 Dec 1850 (same detail as for William 1841)
John Bell 7 Nov 1852 (same detail as for William 1841)
Edwin Bell 2 May 1855 (same detail as for William 1841)
I think this adds weight to the Andromache group only.
The marriage of William Anderson was to Maria Bell in 1838 which I found in Free BMD and links with an IGI submitted entry that states that Maria was d/o William Bell and Ann Parkin (/Parker??) and this links with the fact that William (husband of Ann Parker) had died shortly before she embarked on the 'John'.
Joe
-
A summary of Baptism records online for Wainfleet St Mary naming parents William and Ann.
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/Search.pl
See also Reply#2 posted by Judith
Maria baptised 1818
*Ah bap. 1822 - female most likely Azuba
Isaiah bap.1827
Joseph bap. 1828 - did not survive???
Joseph bap. 20 Sep 1829
Moses bap. 1934
Essie
-
A summary of Baptism records online for Wainfleet St Mary naming parents William and Ann.
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/Search.pl
See also Reply#2 posted by Judith
Maria baptised 1818
*Ah bap. 1822 - female most likely Azuba
Isaiah bap.1827
Joseph bap. 1828 - did not survive???
Joseph bap. 20 Sep 1829
Moses bap. 1934
Essie
Thanks for that very worthwhile link Essie ........ I shall work on that over the next few days.
Joe
-
Hi everyone,
I beleive that I will have some information that may be of interest, in particular about Azubah and Benjamin Providence Bell. I will need to find the papers but my parents have an old family bible (which we beleive belonged may have belonged to either Azubah or on of her children) that make mention of a few family names. I will try and take a photo of that page for you all.
Co-incidentally I beleive that two of Azubah's daughters married two Of Benjamin P's sons. The family mainly seem to have ended up around the Gungagai/Cootamundra region.
-
Hello everyone, anyone interested in photos of the family bible please let me know - I now have some. The bible was owned by Azubah's youngest son. Interestingly it lists all his siblings but unsurprisingly only mentions her marriage to his father. On this, does anyone have any information on the origins of Azubah's first husband Thomas Barker. I know he was sent out for poaching around the Clavering area but beyond that I have nothing.
-
Hello everyone, anyone interested in photos of the family bible please let me know - I now have some. The bible was owned by Azubah's youngest son. Interestingly it lists all his siblings but unsurprisingly only mentions her marriage to his father. On this, does anyone have any information on the origins of Azubah's first husband Thomas Barker. I know he was sent out for poaching around the Clavering area but beyond that I have nothing.
Hi ... I would indeed appreciate copies of anything you may have relating to this
I shall PM my email address.
Thanks,
Joe
-
Just putting up Azuba's first marriage reg:
V1839273 23B/1839
Thomas BARKER, Azuba BELL CE (Richmond)
Child:
V184087 158/1840
Ann BARKER, parents: THOMAS AZUBA
England & Wales, Criminal Registers,
Lent Assizes, Essex, 1829
Thomas BARKER, offences against the game laws, sentence: transportation 14 years
UK, Prison Hulk Registers and Letter Books, Hulk: Leviathan, moored Portsmouth
Arrived from Chelmsford 19 April, 1829
Thomas BARKER, 20, tried 19 March Chelmsford, misdemeanor, despatched 15 Aug 1829, per Sarah to NSW
Australia Convict Musters, 1837
Thomas BARKER, ship Sarah, convicted 1829 Chelmsford. His "Master" is W Bowman, Richmond
New South Wales, Registers of Convicts' Applications to Marry,
25 November 1839
Thomas BARKER, 31, ship Sarah, 14 year sentence, Ticket of Leave, bachelor
Azuba BELL, born in colony, free, spinster
Clergyman: FCT? Stiles, Windsor
There is this death but I hesitate to put it up in case it's not him.
1858 NSW #3063, registered Braidwood
Thomas Barker
Parents: Thomas, Nora
This man is buried in an unmarked grave at Braidwood cemetery.
When did Azuba marry again?
Judith
-
I'm taking a big jump here and throw this into the pot.
Going back to my 1st post here I said;
The vessel 'JOHN' from London 1840
departed Gravesend on September 12th, 1839
with Captain Alexander Smith,
arrived Port Adelaide on February 5th, 1840
and on arrival on board were;
BELL, Ann and children Sarah, Frances
BELL, Isaiah Born 1827 Wainfleet St Mary, Lincolnshire, England
BELL, John
BELL, Joseph
BELL, Moses Born 1834 Wainfleet St Mary, Lincolnshire, England
I think Ann's husband had just recently died and she was joining up with family already in OZ.
Can anyone advise on the ages of children ?
Just lateral thinking thing ....... is it possible that Ann (Bell nee Parker) above had a previous marriage (short say before Isaiah 1827) and the children Sarah,Frances,John and Joseph were a mix of half siblings?
Any Takers?
-
FreeReg has this marriage:
Lincolnshire, Wainfleet St Mary, 30 July 1816
William BELL m Ann PARKER
Church: St Mary
Witnesses: John WHITTEN, Lucy KINSLEY
This would account for all the known children being the children of the one marriage, I think.
These are the baptisms recorded on FreeReg - all at St Mary's church, St Mary Wainfleet ,all with parents William and Ann BELL (some have Ann PARKER)
02 Jul 1818, Maria BELL
* * 1822 *Ah BELL *Ah (probably Azuba)
12 Feb 1827, Isaiah
18 May 1828, Joseph BELL
20 Sep 1829, Joseph BELL
28 Apr 1834, Moses BELL
(Sorry we have listed these before)
So we still do not have the elusive Sarah and Frances. What is the source for the shipping list, please?
Judith
-
FreeReg has 2 burials at St Mary Wainfleet listed with name William BELL.
24 May 1838, William BELL, 65, Abode: Emnets Norfolch (sic)
24 Mar 1839, William BELL, 74, Abode: Wainfleet St Mary
An on-line tree has a copy of the death certificate for Azuba, 1903 - ages of her children shown as at 1903. Informant her son-in-law.
She was married 3 times -
At Richmond: Thomas BARKER. Children: Anne 62, Sophia 60, Fanny 57, Charlotte 55 (all living)
Unknown place: Frank STAPLETON. Children: Frank, 47, one female deceased
Goulburn: John PARKINSON. Children: William F, 35, one female deceased.
This tree does not mention a Sarah or Frances. I'm wondering if they were travelling with Ann and perhaps belonged to others who were already here??
Judith
-
FreeReg has this marriage:
So we still do not have the elusive Sarah and Frances. What is the source for the shipping list, please?
Judith
The source if the shipping list?
See my reply #10
Also good lady in Canberra named Jean Main published a 73 page book entitled
"A Voyage to the land of Hope ... Gravesend to Adelaide 1839-1840"
In Appendix 11 it lists;
Cabin Passengers
Intermediate Passengers and
Steerage Passengers it lists;
Mrs Bell and two children from Lincolnshire and
under 'Single Men'
Isaiah Bell from Lincolnshire - labourer
Jno Bell from Lincolnshire - labourer
There is no other mention of the Bell family.
So here we have a group of relatives make of it what you may.
The rest of the 73 pages is confined to people of grander station.
-
From http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1840John.htm
BELL, Ann and children Sarah, Frances
BELL, Isaiah, BELL John, BELL Joseph, BELL Moses
From Jean Main's book
Mrs Bell and two children from Lincolnshire and
under 'Single Men' - Isaiah Bell from Lincolnshire - labourer
Jno Bell from Lincolnshire - labourer
From Essie's reply #9
Sources for SA Shipping 1836-1842 compiled by G Jaunay
BELL Ann 34y, dairywoman, and two sons 11y & 4y (not named)
Application #5950, Embarkation #3447
BELL Isaiah 15y
Applic #5949, Emb #3448
BELL John 35y
Applic #5951, Emb #3449
Thus in two of the records there are only Ann, two sons and Isaiah. John Bell is listed on Jaunay's record as aged 35; if this is so he could not be a son of Ann. This leaves us with Ann's sons
Isaiah aged 15 whose baptism we have in 1827
Joseph, for whom there is a baptism in 1829 - fits with the age given by Jaunay
Moses, baptism 1834, which is not a very good match.
John BELL's application number is the next on from that of Ann so it seems possible that he is related, or at least they were known to each other (or it might just mean that the application numbers were given alphabetically ??? )
Please treat the following with caution as I can find no supporting documentary evidence. Hopefully someone else may be able to.
My speculation, for what it's worth, is that it's possible that these people travelled together and that the two girls were possibly daughters of John or related somehow. I don't see any evidence that they were daughters of Ann. :-\
According to an on-line tree William BELL was married prior to his marriage to Ann. His family in this first marriage included a John BELL b abt 1800. Once again not an exact match for the man on the shipping list but a possible.
FreeReg has this baptism, but there are so many with surname BELL and same forenames in Wainfleet
Wainfleet St Mary
Baptism, 17 Feb 1799, John BELL s/o William and Mary BELL
A difficult group to untangle - helpful to have some unusual forenames ;)
Judith
-
The thing that is niggling me is 'When did William Marry Ann Parker?' .......... if he died in 1839 aged 74 ( judb #22) and Ann was 34y, dairywoman, and two sons 11y & 4y (not named)
Application #5950, Embarkation #3447 ..........???
I suppose it could be possible ........ but it's a niggle
Joe
-
From the Biographical Index of Sth Australia (not always an accurate resource)
BELL MRS born Lin, England
arr: 1840 John
occ: Labouress
married: unknown
children: 2 by 1840
BELL Isaiah: born Lin, England
arr: 1840 John
occ: Labourer
BELL JOHN: born Lin, England
arr: 1840 John
occ: Labourer
Regards,
Sashar
-
Not sure if posted already but the 1841 Census of Sth Australia has:-
BELL John, Sarah, Frances arrived in SA 1840-02-05 on John (1) from London 1839-09-12 [Source:2,7,10,21,23(1),26]
BELL Mrs William nee Ann PARKER (w), sons Isaiah, Joseph, Moses arrived in SA 1840-02-05 on John (1) from London 1839-09-12 [Source:2,7,21,45]
-
Well found Sashar - that would support the notion that John is travelling with Sarah and Frances while Ann was with her sons -however it's still possible/probable? that they were somehow related.
Just looking again - not to say that all transcriptions are correct.
The FreeReg deaths for two William BELLs who were buried at St Mary Wainfleet in 1839 show ages of 65 and 74. Unfortunately the William/Ann marriage on FreeReg gives no further information - no ages, no parents and no indication of whether William is a bachelor or widower.
An on-line tree suggests, as I gave before, that William BELL was married before to a Mary GREEN and FreeReg has such a marriage:
Wainfleet St Mary, 11 Apr 1795
William BELL, Bachelor
Mary GREEN, Spinster
Witnesses: William SMART, William LUNN
By licence. Groom signed x
There is a burial of a Mary BELL which would allow for the marriage to Ann PARKER in 1816.
Wainfleet St Mary, burial 14 Dec 1815
Mary BELL, 49
Children of this marriage have these baptism dates.
John 1799, Mary 1801 (died 1808), Charlotte 1808
The on-line tree also has an Elizabeth 1797 who is on FamilySearch
I stress this is conjecture only as the names are very common in Wainfleet, however the circumstances fit. If true, Ann PARKER was only 18 when she married a widower with children nearly as old as her.
The only way to move forward would be to examine the parish registers, which may or may not give any more information. Perhaps a query on the Lincolnshire Board? Or contact the owner of the tree on Ancestry.
Judith
-
Last night I couldn't find my 1841 Census CD so the information I posted on the BELL family came from SAFH website.
I've now found my CD and there is no mention of any of those BELL family members on the actual CD.
I'm a bit bewildered but can only assume they have been left off as many were. I checked BALL as well.
It does say on the SAFH website that other sources have been used to consolidate the information. That leads me to think what I posted in regards to 1841, may not be the correct information as regards to which BELL family members belonged together.
Perhaps if someone else has the 1841 Sth Aust.Census CD they could double check.
Regards,
Sashar
-
I have been running two topics;
1) From Lincs to OZ 1840 and
2) William Hartley Squires was sentenced to death
and can confirm that Ann Bell (nee Parker) did travel to OZ and she married William Hartley Squires at Windsor NSW in 1843 and this was sourced via NSW Register of Convicts Application for Marriage.
Ann was stated as being 45 arrived 'free' and Squires aged 40 and transported on Royal George as we have already found.
Thank you all for your invaluable input.
Joe
-
Hi All,
I have done a lot of research and obtained a number of BDM certificates of the Bell / Barker / Stapleton / Parkinson families, and can confirm the common Internet information that Thomas Barker was buried in in Braidwood NSW Australia in 1858 is incorrect. Happy to share what I have found though I note someone in this old chat has a photograph of Azuba Bell's old bible. Grateful to share this for what I have researched.
DJ59