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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: liverpool annie on Monday 11 April 05 03:21 BST (UK)
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We need some fresh eyes -
Matthew Miller ( husband of Margaret Every ) b.1885 - was the son of Matthew Miller born in Sicily about 1852 - and it is believed by the family - his name was Ignazio Mugnaio
1881 census says he was born in Palermo British Subject - all later census say he was born in Liverpool!
One of his greatgrand children went to Sicily last year - to visit the State Archives in Palermo
A professional Sicilian Genealogist was engaged to search the city records - but nothing was found
LDS chuch yielded nothing - after waiting 2 months for copies of births for periods 1850-1860
Kew yields nothing - except stiff necks and sore backs!
many shipping lists etc - yield nothing
copious letter writing - yields nothing
so where can we go from here ? does anybody have any different ideas -
right now we're not seeing wood for trees -
we've walked away and tried to forget about it - but it keeps coming back....
there is much information after his arrival in Liverpool - but nothing before
and the family just wants to know.....
Would really appreciate any suggestions or help
Thanking you in advance!
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What information does the marriage certificate give re Matthew's father?
1875 Dec Liverpool 8b 383
Rose Cosh
Matthew Miller
Regards
Valda
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Father: Jerome Miller
Which is probably anglicised too!
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If he truly was a British subject born abroad then the overseas birth records as you know are kept at the Family History Centre at Clerkenwell (I think unindexed by FreeBMD) and there are also some kept with the National Archives at Kew RG32, - when you say Kew yielded nothing, do you mean both these places indexes yielded nothing?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/bmd/step9a.htm
The Guildhall may have something as well, this website links there.
As Matthew was a seaman one of the ways he could have arrived into this country was joining the Royal Navy in Sicily (of course he could just have easily joined the merchant navy either English or Italian in which case there is very little hope of anything record wise in this country). Again Royal Navy seaman's records are in the National Archives at Kew. After leaving the navy many men transferred to merchant ships.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/military/navy/rnstep1.htm
If he was not a British subject but became a naturalised British subject (or a denizen) then there is further paperwork in the National Archives/
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/naturalisation/
but its unlikely because of the effort involved.
I think of these three sources the most fruitful may be Royal Naval records and even those are a long shot.
Regards
Valda.
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Hi Valda
Years - and many, many hours have been spent going through the National Archives at Kew - both on line and in person !
the Navy, Merchant Navy, Naturalization, Deed polls, - you name it we've been there - but I am going to try the sites you gave me - just in case I find something that wasn't there before.....
I really appreciate your help
Lots of family - lots of man hours have been involved
Now it's just a case of - WE HAVE TO DO IT !!!!! - as everybody is so frustrated.. We thought it worth a try for fresh eyes... !
Thanks again - if by any chance you think of anything else I'd be thrilled to hear it..
Annie
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Annie
have you tried a local newspaper in Palermo? They might print the story of your search with photograph of Matthew or at least a small insert. Of course you might get replies from people trying it on and you would have to get everything translated, but if anyone in the area has done any family research you might get lucky.
Have you tried the local Palermo telephone directory? How common is the surname?
This website gives links to Italian genealogy websites (I can't see Mugnaio amongst them)
http://www.anywho.com/cgi-bin/webdrill?catkey=gwd/Top/Regional/Europe/Italy/Society_and_Culture/Genealogy/Surnames
I'm sure you've been here before if you've spent all those hours at Kew but it was worth looking just in case it adds anything.
regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
It looks like we have plenty to keep us out of trouble for a while - Thank you!
The ancient family legend is that - Mugnaio is the Scicilian word for Miller - but Ignazio doesn't translate to Matthew.........so who knows..!
Thanks again for your time -
but please keep us in mind - if you get any other ideas !
Annie
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We need some fresh eyes -
Matthew Miller ( husband of Margaret Every ) b.1885 - was the son of Matthew Miller born in Sicily about 1852 - and it is believed by the family - his name was Ignazio Mugnaio
1881 census says he was born in Palermo British Subject - all later census say he was born in Liverpool!
One of his greatgrand children went to Sicily last year - to visit the State Archives in Palermo
A professional Sicilian Genealogist was engaged to search the city records - but nothing was found
LDS chuch yielded nothing - after waiting 2 months for copies of births for periods 1850-1860
Kew yields nothing - except stiff necks and sore backs!
many shipping lists etc - yield nothing
copious letter writing - yields nothing
so where can we go from here ? does anybody have any different ideas -
right now we're not seeing wood for trees -
we've walked away and tried to forget about it - but it keeps coming back....
there is much information after his arrival in Liverpool - but nothing before
and the family just wants to know.....
Would really appreciate any suggestions or help
Thanking you in advance!
Hi, excuse my bad english, I'm italian:..
-about Ignazio (this first name is tipically of Sicily) Mugnaio, as you say, but can be MUGNAI (why only this surname is present in Sicily and also no most diffused currently), well, about Ignazio is possible an search in Italian Archives for an search in Liste di Leva=militar service, IF your ancestor are emigrated almost of age 23 old...
If yes, please ask an search in ARCHIVIO DI STATO DI PALERMO you can find it here http://wwwdb.archivi.beniculturali.it/UCBAWEB/indice.html
why are this sources: Ufficio di leva di Palermo, classi 1841 -1921 meaning for males born from 1842/1921 .. I cannot know if this records are of all commons in Palermo province or only for Palermo town...good luck.
regards, suanj
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Thank you so much suanj
I really appreciate your help
I've sent a copy of your message to my cousin - as she can read Italian and I can't...!
but from what I can see - that seems like a good resource - thank you again - I'll let you know what we find out...!
Best Wishes
Annie
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Thank you so much suanj
I really appreciate your help
I've sent a copy of your message to my cousin - as she can read Italian and I can't...!
but from what I can see - that seems like a good resource - thank you again - I'll let you know what we find out...!
Best Wishes
Annie
Yes Annie, really is an good resource, why in Italian archive are many many documents, and also birthregistries; some archive are also the index, so is possible an good search.. about Liste di leva, if they find , on paper are all info you need, why are listed all males in militar service and/or medical check-up for militar service, borns in province ... same request you can send other sicilian archive: Trapani, Ragusa, Siracusa, Enna, Agrigento, Caltanissetta, Catania, Messina.. for my experience I can say you that is very possible that your ancestor was born in west Sicily, also you can write an personal letter in italian language to all MUGNAI in sicily, little community, and to ask if are some relationship with your ancestor.. if, an good luck, someone reply you, he can help you on place... best regards, suanj
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Hi suanj
My cousin went to Palermo Sicily and went through the archives but had no luck....she also found two families in Catania with the same name and wrote to them - one family had moved to Geneva and had no knowlege of Ignazio and the other family had never done their family tree - so didn't know ...... so we have been at a stand- still - but I'm sure we'll have fun with your suggestions and I thank you again !
Best Wishes
Annie
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Hi suanj
My cousin went to Palermo Sicily and went through the archives but had no luck....she also found two families in Catania with the same name and wrote to them - one family had moved to Geneva and had no knowlege of Ignazio and the other family had never done their family tree - so didn't know ...... so we have been at a stand- still - but I'm sure we'll have fun with your suggestions and I thank you again !
Best Wishes
Annie
Hi Annie, in the archives are necessary some good italian culture for to search, otherwise is null the search... My opinion is that you can send an email, better an fax for reply sure, and you explane your case (remember the workers in Office no make the search, but why you are in England, so is very possible that help you) and you ask an search in Liste di Leva; and you wait, almost 30 days for an reply..otherwise you send same txt request also to other sicilian Archives...best regards, suanj
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Hi suanj
Thank you for your ideas and help - I'm going to try it out and I'll let you know what happens !
Annie
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Hi suanj
Thank you for your ideas and help - I'm going to try it out and I'll let you know what happens !
Annie
ok, regards, suanj
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Dear Annie,
in this days I searched for you, and,
just an suggestion,
I think possible that the just italian spelling can be MEGNA; in fact are many MEGNA in Palermo area (ancient record especially in Santa Flavia, Ustica, Capaci, Misilmeri etc ) and in Messina area...
I read the Valda posting that on Matthew( or Ignazio) marriage, the father was Jerome=Gerolamo/Girolamo; on familysearch (LSD) are:
GIROLAMO MEGNA
Male
~~~~~~~~
Event(s):
Birth: 07 JUL 1817
Christening: 07 JUL 1817 Santa Flavia, Palermo, Italy
Death:
Burial:
~~~~~~~~
Parents:
Father: ANGELO MEGNA Family
Mother: RAFFAELA GRAVINA
spouse of Gerolamo MEGNA : NINFA MARTORANO
Marriage: 22 APR 1841 Santa Flavia, Palermo, Italy
this surnames: Gravina and Martorano meaning something for you? Your suggestions?
Regards, suanj
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Hi Suanj
How wonderful of you to keep trying for me...! Thank you so much.. I don't know for sure but it seems like a solution - I have sent a copy of your reply to my cousin
she is the one who went to Sicily - I'm sure she will be very pleased...
Thank you again Suanj - I'll let you know what happens !!
Regards
Annie
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Dear Annie,
I hope this my posting help you, also I found that some IGNAZIO MEGNA homonimus was present sure(why born) in Palermo town around 1860 and in Santa Flavia(Palermo province).....also I found that in lancashire was some Martoranos, couldbe interesting see Martorano immigration/census records in Lancashire.
Greetings,
suanj
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Hi Suanj
You said in your last message that you had found Ignazio Megna in 1860 in Santa Flavia
can you tell me where you found that ?
My cousin is really interested - she is also going to Liverpool on Tuesday - so is going to be checking out Lancashire Martoranos
Hope you are doing good !
Let me know if I can help you too OK?
Regards
Annie
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Hi Suanj
You said in your last message that you had found Ignazio Megna in 1860 in Santa Flavia
can you tell me where you found that ?
My cousin is really interested - she is also going to Liverpool on Tuesday - so is going to be checking out Lancashire Martoranos
Hope you are doing good !
Let me know if I can help you too OK?
Regards
Annie
Hi Annie,
yes, I found this records about 4 Ignazio MEGNA emigrated in USA http://ellisisland.org/search/passSearch.asp :
Exact Matches (4)
1. Ignazio Megna born in Sferracavallo common(Palermo province) emigrated in 1900 - 37 old (so born abt 1863) ;
2. Ignazio Megna born in Palermo (Palermo province) emigrated in 1920 - 29 old ( so born abt 1891)
3. Ignazio Megna born in Santa Flavia ( Palermo province) emigrated in 1902 - 29 old ( so born abt 1873)
4. Ignazio Megna born in Palermo, emigrated in 1909- 49 old (so born abt 1860)
this only for let you know that this name was present in Palermo area about year of your interest...
Also in Santa Flavia( as already saying) was present the name Girolamo(= Jerome) MEGNA with this record:
GIROLAMO MEGNA
Male
~~~~~~~~
Event(s):
Birth: 07 JUL 1817
Christening: 07 JUL 1817 Santa Flavia, Palermo, Italy
Death:
Burial:
Marriages:
Spouse: NINFA MARTORANO Family
Marriage: 22 APR 1841 Santa Flavia, Palermo, Italy
~~~~~~~~
Parents:
Father: ANGELO MEGNA
Mother: RAFFAELA GRAVINA
--------------
This is only an suggestion ...... why MUGNAIO surname have little rilevance in Sicily and no in Palermo area....normally the italian emigrants moved with other family members in foreign country, so is possible that someone of this mentioned surnames was present also in Lancashire....
My best regards,
suanj
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Many other members have given you suggestions., but have a look at these:
http://gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html
Insert the surname of Muganio into the search box on the left hand side. It shows the occurances of the surname in Sicily, which amounts to two communes, each with 1-5 people with the surname.
Also have a look at the Anglo Italian FHS web page - http://www.anglo-italianfhs.org.uk
There are some research interests online. You can also join the Society from the links on the web page. Also have you posted to the Anglo Italian mailing list at Rootsweb?
http://www.anglo-italian-L-request@rootsweb.com
There are archives for the mailing list back to when the list started in 2002 and the Society transcriptions co-ordinator is working very hard to collate as much as possible on Italians in the UK.
Good luck!
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Dear Annie, many long time...!
today, casually I see an message in another forum... well this search's message is very similar with YOUR search:
title: Grandfather
Author: Norman Miller Date: 3 Jan 2003 8:25 PM GMT
Classification: Query
Gianni Mugnaio, born Palermo circa1853, was a seaman arrived in Liverpool,England,changed his name to John Miller, married Rose Cosh sometime around 1870,s. Died in Liverpool around 1910.
If anyone can help or assist I would appreciate it
Grandfather Mugnaio born Palermo circa 1853
Author: Norman Miller Date: 3 Jan 2003 8:33 PM GMT
Classification: Query
Looking for anyone familiar with the name Mugnaio. First name Gianni Became a Merchant seaman. Came to Liverpool England sometime in 1860's changed name to John Miller married Rose Cosh in Liverpool around 1870-1880. Died in Liverpool around 1910.
Apreciate anyone having information regarding the name or family history.
Thank you,
Norman E. Miller
Dear Annie, as you can see, the discrepance is about the first name: Ignazio/Matthew and Gianni/John... your suggestions? many regards, suanj
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Oh WOW!!
suanj! - that's wonderful - that's HIM - but the first name is different - Rose Cosh being the link - my Matthew married Rose Cosh!! where did you find it? is there an address? it's a couple of years old - I hope it's still available!
You are the best!! Thank you very much!
Annie
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Hi Annie, here are the
2 messages (http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gskw=mugnaio&ti=3&ti.si=3&rank=0&hc=25&gss=mb&db=mb&p=localities.weurope.italy.general&application=public&filter=0&pname=vito+felicciardi&utype=Admin&mbtitle=General+Board)
could be that the real name was Giovanni( Gianni is an diminutive) and no Ignazio? this Norman could be another descendant..perhaps an your cousin? Kisses, suanj
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This is so cool suanj!
How wonderful of you to keep looking for me !
I've sent a message to my cousin (she's the one who went to Sicily etc ) so I thought I'd give her first chance!
Thank you again - that's such good news!
Annie :) :)
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:) :) :) :) :) suanj
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Hi Annie, just another suggestion.... you say me that the surname was MUGNAIO because the MILLER is the english translation of italian Mugnaio... but the meaning is also Molinaro/i that in Italy, and especially in south Italy, it is used with same meaning, and Molinaro/i is also an surname.... you have some document wich are wrote Mugnaio really or no? Could be Molinaro/i also? regards, suanj
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Hi suanj!
The marriage certificate says Mugnaio! though they did get married in Liverpool!
By the way my cousin had already been in contact with the guy on the postings you gave me yesterday!
But you were wonderful to spot it and give it to me!
Hows your research going?
Let me know if you need anything!!
Annie ;) ;) ;)
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Annie,
have you tried posting on italiangenealogy.com
George
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Hi George!
You know I can't remember if I've been there or not - I have to go through my stuff!! every so often I come back to him - then I get mad at him - for not being where I think he should be!! ;)
He's just been a pain in the tush for years!!
Isn't this a "fun" hobby??
Annie
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Annie,
Your in the best hands with my friend Suanj
George
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She has been terrific! - every so often she pops up with something else!!
small world - if she's a friend of yours!!
Annie!! :)
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Suanj,
has kept me going over the past 12 months. Don't know what I would do without her.
George
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Hi Annie, again me!
so long time! I never forgot you, and in my free time, I make the long search with so much difficulties...
I know that in the marriage act show: Mugnaio, but it could be mispelled and also so much... however I'm pretty sure that from Norman input, the original name of Matthew Miller was John/Giovanni....
I know all censuses discrepances abt the Matthew birthplace, but I'm most sure that in the 1901 Matthew said the truth:
he was born in Liverpool, almost by my search....
Matthew Miller born as John Miller in Liverpool 1853, was the son of a italian man emigrated in UK and married at a ireland woman... this man in first time of emigration in UK was a musician, and also when born the children , after changed the him work... him name was Anthony Miller italian, but in 1 census he declared himself as born in ireland, and in all other censuses as italian british subject.....
Sure trace of Anthony Miller italian are in 1871 census and the oldest son was John Miller:
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I believe that Anthony died in 1913 abt.....
but what was the italian surname?????
I know that in Matthew marriage act was wrote Mugnaio... but frankly I believe mistaken or no right....
Strange census records:
I searched in 1861 census and 1851 census... and the only Anthony Miller, italian, musician, married at Mary( married Miller), born Ireland, ages matching, well living in Warrington, Lancashire... the problem is that no John/Matthew presence, so this record could be no right... I searched so much in 1861 census, but this is the only record matching for ages, profession, birthplaces and names....
Abt 1851 it is a Anthony ..., italian, musician in Manchester... the surname is transcribed as: Miedive
but from direct reading of handwriting, and knowing the italian surnames, it is NICOLINI....
so also this record is strange....
However abt Anthony Miller I'm pretty sure that he is the John/Matthew father
Just for let you know that I no missing you....
best regards, suanj
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We need some fresh eyes -
Matthew Miller ( husband of Margaret Every ) b.1885 - was the son of Matthew Miller born in Sicily about 1852 - and it is believed by the family - his name was Ignazio Mugnaio
1881 census says he was born in Palermo British Subject - all later census say he was born in Liverpool!
One of his greatgrand children went to Sicily last year - to visit the State Archives in Palermo
A professional Sicilian Genealogist was engaged to search the city records - but nothing was found
LDS chuch yielded nothing - after waiting 2 months for copies of births for periods 1850-1860
Kew yields nothing - except stiff necks and sore backs!
many shipping lists etc - yield nothing
copious letter writing - yields nothing
so where can we go from here ? does anybody have any different ideas -
right now we're not seeing wood for trees -
we've walked away and tried to forget about it - but it keeps coming back....
there is much information after his arrival in Liverpool - but nothing before
and the family just wants to know.....
Would really appreciate any suggestions or help
Thanking you in advance!
abt Matthew 1891 census, this could be correct?
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
regards, suanj
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suanj !!!! .... how lovely to see you !! :D I was only talking about you the other day !! :D
Let me go through this stuff and get back to you !
I'm amazed you still remembered .... thank you !!
Annie :)
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suanj !!!! .... how lovely to see you !! :D I was only talking about you the other day !! :D
Let me go through this stuff and get back to you !
I'm amazed you still remembered .... thank you !!
Annie :)
Hi Annie, glad hearing from you.... this is a good stuff...! I think that we are no far from the truth... abt Anthony I'm sure... abt surname.... oh it is a mystery... hoping not for much time....! Kisses, suanj
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Buongiorno suanj ! ;D
Well all the Matthew Miller's are right - I have most of that and I have his marriage to Rose Cosh !! ( in Latin !! ::) ::) ::) ) ..... but I'm still trying to check on the Antony !! I haven't seen him before .... I'll let you know when I know for sure OK ??
Thank you so much again for doing this
I appreciate it very much !
Annie :)
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Hi Annie, you remember this:
title: Grandfather
Author: Norman Miller Date: 3 Jan 2003 8:25 PM GMT
Classification: Query
Gianni Mugnaio, born Palermo circa1853, was a seaman arrived in Liverpool,England,changed his name to John Miller, married Rose Cosh sometime around 1870,s. Died in Liverpool around 1910.
If anyone can help or assist I would appreciate it
Grandfather Mugnaio born Palermo circa 1853
Author: Norman Miller Date: 3 Jan 2003 8:33 PM GMT
Classification: Query
Looking for anyone familiar with the name Mugnaio. First name Gianni Became a Merchant seaman. Came to Liverpool England sometime in 1860's changed name to John Miller married Rose Cosh in Liverpool around 1870-1880. Died in Liverpool around 1910.
Apreciate anyone having information regarding the name or family history.
Thank you,
Norman E. Miller
I believe John first name correct.... many italians changed in various censuses the surname and also the first names... and the only John Miller that matching for age is the John Miller son of Anthony Miller, italian... no traces of John Miller in further censuses.... and also another child of Anthony Miller, Felix, changed the first name in Thomas, so become Thomas Miller... when I made the search abt italian roots of my friend George, I found the same thing... and also George had perplexities.... but in further search we have found the right roots with document's proofs ..... so maybe you can ask in the family if Matthew had siblings and if someone remember the first names.....
Best regards, suanj
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I have most of that and I have his marriage to Rose Cosh !! ( in Latin !! ::) ::) ::) )
Hello Annie
If you need help for translating the latin text on the marriage record I can do it for you.
Greetings from Switzerland
Svenja
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thanks, maybe Annie can show us the marriage act, so I can to read directly... thanks, suanj
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Hi Annie
I Know it is sometime since you posted this article but I have only just found it thanks to a very good friend. Rose Cosh is my GGrandmother and I would love to share the info I have. please email me at (*)
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