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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: jesscat on Thursday 18 November 10 15:08 GMT (UK)
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looking for marriage details of charles e dove b 1884 in st katherines st northampton m? d 1qt 1939.son of thomas dove & sarah ann (nee abram).brother of alferd william & emma.my g uncle.any info wecolme.
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Have you got him in 1911? was he married by then?
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Welcome to Rootschat Jesscat.
It's not a very common name- have you tried looking for him on http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/
Did he serve in WW1?
Carol
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Welcome from me to Jesscat. :)
I am not chasing you Carol. :) :) :)
Not sure if you have this info.
Billing Road Cemetery
Burial Jan 11th 1939 Charles Edward Dove of 75 Cloutsham Street,
he was aged 54 years old, died 10th and buried in grave 7010.
Sandy
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Welcome from me to Jesscat. :)
I am not chasing you Carol. :) :) :)
Not sure if you have this info.
Billing Road Cemetery
Burial Jan 11th 1939 Charles Edward Dove of 75 Cloutsham Street,
he was aged 54 years old, died 10th and buried in grave 7010.
Sandy
Don't suppose it says 'hubby of' though does it Sandy ;D
Carol
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What are you like Carol. :)
The thing is I can not find him with a wife on any of the
directories I have for the town.
Or a possible wife on freebmd etc.
Sandy
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Will re-type that.
There is a marriage on freebmd in Jun Qtr 1910 but
no matching wife.
Sandy
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The 1910 marriage is for a Charles Henry Dove, Sandy,and this is a Charles Edward ;)
Jesscat needs to do what Liz suggested ( ie look at 1911 to find out if he's married by then......OR NOT )
That Charles Henry Dove married Hepsey Adams- what an unusual name ;)
Carol
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Whoops :) Sorry about that.
I am slightly tired. Well that is my excuse.
Will look further another time if you haven't all
worked it out.
Sandy
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What have you been doing whilst I had had my tea. ::)
On the 1901 Census Charles is at Aldershot as a Driver.
There is a possible person in the next one.
I don't want to lead the wrong way as before so will
leave upto you all to see if it is a possibilty.
Sandy
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thanks guys I've no idea if he was married or had kids. I know more abt alfred.Did find 2 charles edward dove 1 in the royal field art 1914 _1920.The 2nd royal army service. will look at suggestions.
I remeber :) :) :)
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Hi jesscat,
On a strange impulse tonight, I searched Charles Edward Dove Northampton and found this thread. I realise it's an old thread and this reply will surprise you if you are still active on this forum. I've registered specifically to communicate with you. Please post if you are still here and I will tell you all I know. Your great uncle is without doubt my grandfather, my father being his youngest son, Alfred (again). He actually had five children, but conventional means will sadly not find them. He was a remarkable man. I really hope you see this or if someone knows you, please help us make this connection. Fingers crossed.
All the best.
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Hello Stooby and welcome to Rootschat.
Jesscat is still active on the boards,she was last here on Saturday 23 November 13,so she should be notified that you have posted here and come back and reply to you.
You can send each other PM's (personal messages) once you have made at least 3 postings here,reply to this and that'll be your 2nd one!
All the best
Carol :)
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Hi Carol,
Thank you so much for the reply. I'm so pleased that contact is possible. It would have been awful if I couldn't pass on what I know. I haven't got into genealogy yet, but I'm being drawn towards having a serious go. If I had spent years researching my father's family, I would have followed completely the wrong line. A very few years ago I found out the information to make it possible, which is very interesting and will make the missing links for jesscat to follow. I obviously have a relative that I knew nothing of until yesterday. Fascinating stuff, eh? Thanks again for helping.
All the best,
Stuart
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:) Hi stooby
RE Charles Edward Dove . My great uncle Charles had a brother & sister. Alfred , Emma was the youngest. Alfred was my granddad. I have a copy of Charles birth & death certificate also a transcription of the 1911 census. I have little other inform. Their mothers maiden was Abram. Therefore it would be interesting to find out if he is the same person.
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Hi jesscat,
I'm delighted that we've made contact and I can share what I know with you. From the information already posted, I'm certain that it's the same man. I'll post what I know here rather than in a PM, as it's an interesting story and throws a light on how much has changed by way of attitudes over the last century. It's also a cautionary tale for researchers, illustrating just how easy it is to follow the wrong line if a little piece of information is unknown to you. By the way, welcome to the family! Here goes then:-
My father's name was Alfred John West, or at least I thought so until a very few years ago. He was always known as John. Sadly, I lost him two years ago at 96 and my mother followed at 85 in February this year. I'm 63 and have a younger brother and sister. My Dad had never told me much about his father and seemed slightly reluctant to do so, but I never read any more into it. All I knew was that he loved his parents and said what lovely people they both were. He did mention that his father died relatively young, believed to be caused by experiences in WW1. Gassing maybe or just terrible conditions? I knew he was buried in Billing Road Cemetery, because my mother used to take me there as a child to lay flowers for both of my grandfathers and my paternal grandmother. My father was born at 47 West Street ( yes, really) in October 1915. He was one of nine West children (or again, so I thought). Eight survived and one died at about 22. There was an enormous spread in their ages and his older sisters were old enough to be his mother. He always said that he had about three mothers and was well spoiled by them. All fairly normal up to now, but then things took a turn and I found out that I'm not who I thought I was.
One day about ten years ago, I spotted a document that Dad had left on the table when I visited. It showed his name as A J D West, which I had never seen before. I asked him if it was a mistake and he gave me a long look before he said "I suppose I'd better tell you, or you'll never know who you really are". To my amazement, I discovered that the 'D' stood for Dove, that his father's name was Dove, not West and that we all really had the wrong surname. Wow. The tale then unfolded. His mother, Ada West, had been married to Mr West and had four children. For some reason, Mr West suddenly upped sticks and went to America. Dad didn't really seem to know why, but did say that his two oldest sisters had gone out to visit him once, not long after. After that, he seems to have disappeared for good. I'd love to know the full story on that one. Mr and Mrs West were never divorced. Anyway, at some point not known, along came your great uncle, Charles Edward Dove and promptly fell in love with the abandoned Mrs West. Dad told me they were devoted to each other. Along the line, they had a child, which was decidedly not approved of in those days. They registered that child, as you would today, with the surname Dove. Apparently, they then had extreme grief from the Registrar for doing so and were told that it was unacceptable. However, it was too late to alter the official records and the name stood. In time, four more children came along and they were forced to register them with their mother's surname, West. That's why you couldn't find them. I now have Dad's birth certificate and was shocked to see that there is no father's name on it, although there's no doubt that it was Charles Dove. Whether the other three kids had the same thing I don't know, but I would expect so. What a terrible way for officialdom to treat a loving father. So, nine kids, eight Wests and one Dove on the records, where in reality there were four Wests and five Doves. Whether all of the last four had the Dove middle name I don't know. Dad was very proud it.
The message is apparently too long, so I'll send a second post as part 2.
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Sorry about the break. Technology is very inflexible.
I asked why he'd never told me this before, as I was far from a child and he explained that his parents had come under enormous social pressure because of their unmarried state and he had always felt that there was a stigma attached to him because of their relationship. A very old fashioned view today, but I think it was ingrained in him over many years and he had never grasped the enormity of that change. Very quaint.
The family moved to 75 Cloutsham Street at some point, and after Charles died, my Dad lived with his mother and looked after her when she became ill with breast cancer. He absolutely adored her and wouldn't consider marrige until after she died in 1948. He married my mother a few months later and I was born at that same address in 1950, but moved to Sheep Street shortly afterwards.
So there you have your answers, or at least some of them. I do also know that Charles served with The 2nd Battalion, The Northamptonshire Regiment in WW1 and shows up on the Roll of Honour, giving his address as Cloutsham Street.
For some reason unknown to me, Dad had no real contact with his brothers and I never knew them. His siblings were Maud, Edie, Ivy, Violet, Dorothy(who died young), Charlie, Joe and Bill. I knew all of the girls, except Dorothy and was very close to Maud(the eldest) and Ivy. they were all truly lovely people who would have made their parents proud. Dad was the youngest and also the last survivor. I only know two of my cousins, but I know of several others. The one you may be interested in is Barry Dove, who ran an electrical company in Northampton, but I don't know which of Charles's sons was his father. I've never met him, but he's a missing link for you. I may be able to find out more about his father from one of my cousins. Finally, I know of only one photo of Charles and one of Ada. I haven't finished sorting out since Mum died, but I'm praying that they turn up.
I've gone rambling on, so I'll leave it at that for now. I hope it helps to fit the pieces together for you. I just wish my Dad was here to tell him of this encounter with one of his uncle's family. He would have been both amazed at the tecnologythat made it possible and delighted that it had happened. Are you still local to Northampton?
Take care, have a good Christmas and Happy New Year.
All the best,
Stuart West (Dove?)
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Hello stuart
Well it was a surprise.After I posted my reply I had a few tears. I can tell you have more relatives in Northampton, and 1 in Scotland. I didn't know until I looked at the census that Alfred had a brother & sister.
Alfred William Dove b 1887 @ St Katherines st Northampton to a Thomas & Sarah Dove. He worked as a clicker in one of the shoe factories. In 1912 he married Eleanor Lucy Payne aged 28yrs. On marriage certificate the address is Moat st for both of them. Alfred served in the Royal army medical corps in ww1. He was Ypres. After which he again worked in shoe industry. 1921 my uncle Reg was born followed by my mum Joan in 1925 in 1927 they had another daughter Irene.He also had 2 stepsons I think they were younger.Colin & Norman.
Lucy died in 1939 they lived in Bath st by this time. Charles died in the same year death due to pulmonary t b. His death was registered by E.Gibbs sister at Moat Rd.
Alfred remarried in 1947. He died in 1960.
Reg had 3 kids Tony Wendy & Peter .Joan had me and my brother. Rene married twice but no children.
My mum died 1988 aged 62.Dad died in sept this year aged 91.
I have traced the Doves back to a Robert Dove in Duston abt 1790.
I have lots of photos of Alfred.He was a tall man and he was always smartly dressed & wore a trilby hat. We used visited Northampton he and aunty Alice lived in Lorne Rd.
Reg died in 1987 Rene in 2006.
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Hi jesscat,
Thank you for all your information. This is fascinating and I feel the urge to really have a go at finding out more about my family and roots. My aunt produced a family tree for my mother's side, but never my father's. Maybe I now know why. She achieved that before the internet was available using researchers and record offices. As that side all came from Glasgow and Ayrshire and my grandmother from the Isle of Arran, it wasn't easy then. I'd love to have the same thing on my father's side.
The only photo I've seen of Charles was taken with two other men outside Harborough Road Hospital, where he was being treated for his chest. He too was tall and dark haired and looked very smart. I just hope it turns up.
The Duston connection is interesting. My mother told me that "Grandma Dove" was the layer-out for Duston and that they were a Duston family, although I'm pretty sure she said that Charles had lived at Moulton before meeting Ada. I lived in Duston from '58 to '70 and sat next to a Hazel Dove at junior school there. Wouldn't that be a turn up if we were related. It seems very possible.
By way of coincidence, I also worked on a house in Lorne Road for a few weeks in about '82 for a friend who let it to an old couple, whose name eludes me. I think it was around No. 14/15, so I might have spoken to people there who were related. The plot thickens.
I'd love to see a photo of Alfred, the reason being that there are people in my parents' wedding photos who I can't identify. I just wonder if he might have been there?
I've always deeply regretted that I only knew one of my grandparents, but now I feel a little closer. I think I must start working on this and find out more.
Do you live in the Northampton area?
I'm away in Wales for Christmas week, so you will not get a reply to anything then, but I'm home until Saturday.
All the best,
Stuart
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Now you both have posted more than 3 times,you can contact each other via the Personal Message system. Click on the little scroll under the the persons name and away you go.
Personal messages show up on the top right of the page under " My Messages" .
Regards
Carol
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I can help a little on Charles Dove's army career if you would like and haven't done so already. Just let me know.
Steve.
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Hi stuart
I hope you had a good Christmas. We we went to Cornwall for Christmas & new year.
I was born in 1952 and live in Warwickshire about 40 miles from Northampton.My brother also lives in Warks .He has a daughter & 2 sons.All of them take after the Dove side of the family,in height. I still keep in touch with Pete as he still lives in Northampton .His mum & dad lived in Far Cotton until their deaths in the 1980's. Wendy also still lives in Northampton.
I've been doing a bit more family research. I remember 3 great aunts Flo Win & Nel ( Helen ) they were all sisters to Eleanor.Nellie & Walter lived in Coventry I was told they ran a pub Walter died in 1958.Nell then moved back to Northampton.My mum took me with her when she helped aunt Nell pack. Either Win or Flo had a shop in Northampton somewhere poss a grocers.
Aunt Rene worked for Civils grocers for a long time one shop being on the Kettering rd.She was a girl guide leader. Her brother Reg had a lot to do with both the boys brigade and the local dog club.
I have been wondering if my mum or her family knew any of your dads family . So today I found her old 21st birthday cards out. There's one from a lady named Edie. I've had the cards since she died. There are photo's of mum with people I don' know.
In the censuses for 1871 &1881 is a Sarah Dove in Moulton.
Best wishes
Linda
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Hi Linda,
We spent christmas in a cow barn converted to a cottage on the coast above Cardigan Bay. It rained and blew like fury for six days out of seven, but hey, we escaped all the christmas nonsense and had a proper chill-out. Sorry I haven't replied to your PM to date. My (nearly) father in law has been unwell and in hospital and it's been a bit frantic since we got back home.
I would guess that your Mum's card from Edie was from my auntie. I'm not sure, but I think she was one of the Dove part of the family, which would add up. How I wish my lovely old Dad was here to ask about all this. He would have been thrilled. My parents' ashes sit by the side of my desk and I've told them about it all, but no reply yet! Edie lived in Rushden and her daughter Dorothy is still in touch with me. She's lovely, too. All the Doves I've known are, even if they're called West. I owe her a call, so I'll tell her of our connection and see if she can fill in some of the missing information for us. Violet's daughter Phyllis is still alive as far as I know, living in Colne, Lancashire, but I think Violet was one of the Wests. That's just made me wonder if she knows that Mum has died. I have a number, so I'll ring her and again see what she can tell me. It's a very convoluted family. Looking through Mum's massive phone book I've just come across a Diane Dove nearby at Holcot. I've never heard of her before, so she may not be related, but it's worth a call, I guess. My problem is always finding time to sit down without other pressures and do these things. I'll pass on anything I find out. The chronology of the West (Dove) children and which section of the family they belong to would be a good starting point, methinks. I believe the oldest, Maud, was born about 1887 and Dad, the last, was 1915, so there's a 28 year spread there. I know Maud (then Beehan) had two sons, but I have no contact information. Likewise Ivy (then Lilford) had a son, Don, who I'm told still lives in Northampton, but again no contact information. I only re-met my cousin Dorothy about three years ago, having last seen her at her wedding in 1960/61.
I'd better sign off now, as I'm full of cold and need my beauty sleep desperately. Never seems to make any improvement, though! Take care, and I'll come back with anything I find out.
All the best,
Stuart
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I can help a little on Charles Dove's army career if you would like and haven't done so already. Just let me know.
Steve.
Hi Steve,
Many thanks for your offer. It would be wonderful to know a little more about my grandfather. He's a close relative and I can't believe that I know so little about him, so anything you can add would be great. I'm a total amateur at all this, but I feel myself being sucked in to a lot of research. The other side of my family was all done the hard way by my aunt before the internet joined us all together, but my father's side is a muddy blur. I feel that needs to be corrected.
All the best,
Stuart
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Hi Steve
I would like to learn a bit more about Charles's army life. :)
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I had better have a look then! (I missed this when Stooby replied!)
Back soon....
Steve.
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I believe he was No. 20114 Charles Dove of the 2nd Northamptonshire Regiment who was posted to France on 15th December 1915. Both the man's Medal Index Card (MIC) and the 1918 Absent Voters List (AVL) show him as of "47 West Street, Northampton".
Charles Dove's claimed a Silver War Badge (Badge No. 135125 issued on 5 March 1919) after being discharged and the roll (ledger) for this badge shows that he enlisted on 5th July 1915 and was discharged on 4th December 1918, being no "longer physically fit for Army service".
After his enlistment in July 1915 he would have trained in the UK for the usual 4 or 5 months, either at Gillingham with the 3rd Reserve Battalion or at Colchester with the 8th Reserve Battalion. As noted above his MIC shows that he went to France on 15th December 1915. His medal roll ledger confirms that he was posted to the 2nd Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment.
Charles Dove served through the Somme with the 2nd Battalion and was probably involved in their attack on Contalmaison on the Somme on 7th July 1916.
Though the Somme battles came to an effective end in November 1916 some attacks were still made in early 1917. One of these attacks was against German positions on the Moislains Ridge at a village called Bouchavesnes that the 2nd Battalion took part of on 4th March 1917. A good number of 2nd Battalion men were killed and wounded in that battle. Most of the wounded appeared on a casualty list in the Times on 2nd April 1917 - 20114 Charles Dove was reported as wounded as a Private in that list in the Times, which almost certainly means he was wounded during those attacks. What the lists don't state is the type and severity of the wounds - a man could be evacuated home and laid up for months recovering or remained "at duty" and had his minor wounds patched up and continued on.
It is therefore uncertain as to whether he was present at the 2nd Battalion's next major battle during Third Ypres on 31st July 1917 and/or a further attack on 16th August 1917. However, he had certainly returned to the 2nd Battalion by the spring of 1918. Like many of the battalions on the Western Front they were caught up in the German Offensives on March and April 1918 - the 2nd Northamptons were involved in the battles around Amiens and at Villers Bretonneux in April 1918 when they fought alongside the more lauded Australians at VB.
After these battles, the 8th Division of which the 2nd Northamptons were part was withdrawn to a quiet area in May 1918. Though the battalion was seriously under strength it still manned the Front line at Berry-au-Bac near the Chemin des Dames at the Aisne valley. Unfortunately, the quiet area of the line had been chosen for the Germans next major offensive and on 27th May 1918 the Germans swept into the weakly held lines and surrounded the 2nd Northamptons. It was reported that two men of the battalion escaped, the rest mainly being taken prisoners of war. Again, a whole list of "Missing" Northamptonshire Regiment was published, this time in the Official Casualty Lists on 12th July 1918 (the major newspapers had stopped reporting wounded or missing men in 1917). 20114 Private C. Dove appears on this list of the missing.
The Northampton Mercury of 3rd July 1918 reported:
"MISSING. Pte. Charles Dove, Northants Regt. Eldest son of Mr Thomas Dove, Moat Street, Northampton. Missing since May 27th. Been in France nearly three years and wounded once. Formerly worked for Messrs. Padmore and Barnes, St James."
(My ref:Image P1220512. 8-7-2010)
The above suggests that whatever time he spent away from France (if any) due to his earlier wounding was not significant. It also very strongly implies that he spent the rest of the war as a POW in Germany.
Padmore and Barnes actually produced a fantastic looking "Roll of Honour" (complete with "red indian" motifs) of men who served (names only, no details) . Whilst I have seen a copy, I do not have a picture of one and cannot confirm whether Charles Dove is mentioned, though I assume he would be. It looks like there is a copy in the Northampton Records Office.
Steve.
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Thanks for the info on Charles's army record.
My grandfather was Private Alfred William Dove he served with the Royal Army Medical Corps (72379). I have a copy of his short service record.We know he was shot in the face. It mentions theatre of war as being Eastern. Charles was his brother.
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How very strange. I sent a reply thanking Steve for all the effort he must have put in to that very complete record of Charles's war record, but it obviously didn't appear on here, so thank you Steve. It's probably a sign of how things have changed to see that Charles's notice of being missing in action mentions him only as 'the son of' when he had a partner and several children with her. very odd.
For Linda's research, my brother tells me that it was not Charles who originated from Moulton, but Ada West (nee Smart), his partner, my grandmother. Sorry about that, Linda. My brother is in touch with Joyce now, who is the daughter of Phyllis, whose mother was Charles's daughter or stepdaughter. I think she was actually a West, not a Dove. She is sending us a copy of a photo of Ada with all five girls. Fantastic. Another little coincidence is that the Padmore and Barnes factory still exists and has been occupied for many years by Church's Shoes, where my ex-wife used to work! This world seems to shrink every day.
All the best,
Stuart
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Jesscat,
As far as I can see from his records these are Alfred's general movements:
23-10-1915 - Enlisted at Northampton
26-10-1915 - Posted to "T" Company (the large UK companies from which the men were allocated to UK hospitals etc)
1915 - 1916 - Stationed somewhere in the UK
24-09-1916 - Embarked to France and Flanders (B.E.F., British Expeditionary Force)
xx-11-1916 - Admitted to No. 37 Casualty Clearing Station at Avesnes-le-Comte (west of Arras) suffering from "P.U.O." i.e. Pyrexia (fever) of Unknown Origin
26-11-1916 - Transferred as a patient to No. 6 Stationary Hospital at Frevent (west of Avesnes)
30-11-1916 - Transferred to a Base Hospital by Ambulance Train (probably via Abbeville)
01-12-1916 - Admitted to No 2 Canadian General Hospital at Le Treport (at the mouth of the river Bresle)
17-12-1916 - Transferred to No. 3 Convalescent Depot at Le Treport
23-01-1917 - Transferred to RAMC Base Depot from Hospital
xx-01-1917 - Returned to unit or reposted (unknown)
xx-10-1917 - Wounded - shell wound to Face (slight)
16-10-1917 - Admitted to No 1 Canadian General Hospital at Etaples
18-10-1917 - Returned to the UK
19-10-1917 - Admitted to No 3 Northern General Hospital at Sheffield
03-12-1917 - Home furlough (leave) until 13-12-1917
xx-xx-1918 - Medical status reduced to BII (B2)
xx-xx-1918 - Posted to No. 406 Field Ambulance (UK)
05-02-1919 - Demobilised with 28 days leave. Protection Certificate Notes Eastern Command (i.e. UK eastern region)
05-03-1919 - Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve
What is not clear at all from his records is what medical unit he was serving with. His admission to 37 Casualty Clearing Station could have been from his own unit (i.e. 37 C.C.S.) or one of the Field Ambulances of the Divisions in the Arras area at the time. After a couple of months in the hospital treatment chain he may have returned to his old unit or may have gone elsewhere. Apologies that I can't extract his front line unit from his records.
Steve.
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Hi Steve
Thanks for your help with Alfred's war record.I thought he was at Ypres at some point in the war. The copy of the record I've there's a lot blacked out.