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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: polkadot41 on Thursday 25 November 10 10:27 GMT (UK)
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I have just received some fabulous letters wrote from ancestors in Australia to London from 1870-1908 and in one of them there is details that George Duker (brother of the author) was killed by a woman "..she must have been a fearful woman to kill a man in such a way..."
The letter is dated October 1887. The family left in England were from London and the letter does suggest there may have been details in the newspaper.
Could anybody help, don't know which papers I need or how to purchase them?
Many thanks
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This looks the only likely candidate for the death registration:
Ap/May/Jun 1886
Lewisham ref 1d 596
George Duker
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George Duker left a will....
George Duker late of 40 Wastdale Road,Forest Hill, Kent.
Artist in Gutta Percha who died 19th April 1886 at 40 Wastdale Road.
Administration was granted on 2nd June 1886 to Elizabeth Duker of 8 Willow Terrace, New Charlton Kent.
Widow of the said George Duker.
Personal estate of £26 11s
Carol
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This looks the only likely candidate for the death registration:
Ap/May/Jun 1886
Lewisham ref 1d 596
George Duker
Aged 49 ;)
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Aged 49 ;)
Dont know how I left that off when I typed it up- it is written on my scrappy bit of paper that I jotted the stuff down on!
Thanks Carol for noticing and adding that!
But now I am going to be pernickity (even if I can't spell it) - if "Administration" was granted then surely that means he didnt leave a Will - if he did, it would have been "Probate" that was granted.
At least we are narrowing the area where it was all happening, so that might help with newspapers.
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1881
RG11 1717 52 83
Indexed Dukes
40 Windale Street, Plaistow, West Ham
George Duker 44 Operative Gutta Percha bn Middx St George
Elizabeth 44 wife bn Stepney
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1871
RG10 1630 8 14
Indexed Duke
38 Winchester Street, Plaistow (I wonder if 1881 was actually WInchester Str, it wasnt very clear)
George 35 Artist in Gutta Percha bn St George in th eEast Middx
Elizabeth 35 wife bn Stepney
not looking as if they had any children
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Cant see him in earlier censuses as yet.
But here is his marriage
1 Nov 1857
St Thomas Stepney
George Duker, full age, bachelor, cigar maker, of Stepney, father William Raine Duker labourer
ELizabeth Holbrook, full age, spinster, of Stepney, father Geroge Holbrook Carpenter
Witnesses C A Bocking and ELeanor Hooper
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Death -
Jul/Aug/Sep 1863
St Geo in the East 1c 321
William Rane Duker
so this must be the dad of both George and his brother in Australia.
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Hi all,
Could this have anything to do with George Duker (although the name is Ducker in the article)
Strangely, this was in the Huddersfield Chronicle and West Yorkshire Advertiser, dated May 8, 1886. Can't find anything in the London papers, but still looking.
Yorkslass
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Whoops, my article didn't attach.
I'll try again
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ooooh - decapitated! :o
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Blimey :o
So Carroll69 wasn't kidding when she said " she must be a fearful woman to kill a man in such a way"
Now Yorkslass has found an article that mentions his name as Ducker,I'll look at the Times again.
Carol
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I think on freebmd the woman "Emily Brodhegan" mentioned is listed as Brodhagen - Emilee Dorper m. Christian Henry F Brodhagen in 1873, he died 1878, she died Jun quarter 1886 Lewisham aged 47.
beta.familysearch.org/ shows that she was actually a widow - father's name at her marriage in 1873 given as Christian Gakel.
I think she is on the 1881 census as "Blodhagen" (no family, just as a boarder).
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I think on freebmd the woman "Emily Brodhegan" mentioned is listed as Brodhagen - Emilee Dorper m. Christian Henry F Brodhagen in 1873, he died 1878, she died Jun quarter 1886 Lewisham aged 47.
I don't think she so much as 'died',but was probably sentenced to death.
Carol
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Strangely, this was in the Huddersfield Chronicle and West Yorkshire Advertiser, dated May 8, 1886. Can't find anything in the London papers, but still looking.
The same article appears in 'The Illustrated Police News', 8th May 1886
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Oh my goodness, thank you so much. I just popped out for half an hour and you both have it sorted, can't believe it!!!!
Yes it is the right Duker, I do have him married to Elizabeth and his father was Wm Raine Duker.
So it sounds as if he was having an affair with this woman.
Anita Carroll
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I don't think she so much as 'died',but was probably sentenced to death.
According to the article Yorkslass found, it looks like there was never a trial at all, only an inquest - "open verdict" here refers to the outcome of the inquest and means there wasn't sufficient information to class his death as murder/suicide/accident. His family clearly believed she was responsible and probably took her suicide as an admission of guilt. Makes you wonder what her husbands died of! ;)
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That's how I understood it Jorose - I'm just so annoyed that I can't find anything at all on George Duker's death or any inquest. It's the sort of thing newspapers reported at great length in those days isn't it?
I've done searches under everything I can think of - names, addresses, inquest, coroner, decapitated!!
Yorkslass
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Hi
I can't find anything either, but there must have been something in the newspaper because his sister in Australia writes to her sister in England asking for a copy of the paper.
carroll69
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Hi
The article states the jury were dissatisfied and that an open verdict was given.
Would they still be classed as jury at an inquest?
carroll69
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Yes, inquests can be conducted by jury, and the phrase "open verdict" is what shows it was referring to the inquest. I don't believe this term would ever be used for criminal trials.
The exact wording on his death certificate would probably be quite interesting! (The informant should be the coroner).
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If you get the death certificate it should give you the coroner, and an idea of the date of the inquest (that was certainly true of one I obtained - it led me straight to the newspaper with the inquest report).
Hope this helps, but you may not find the newspaper on line, it may require a visit to a library to find.
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Hi
Many thanks for that, I certainly will look into buying the death certificate.
I've really enjoyed this one and wouldn't have so much info without all your help!
carroll69
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Thrilling to see mention of my ancestor William Rane Duker. I am descended from one of his daughters in Australia. Can you tell me which sister wrote the letters to England from Australia about the death of brother George Duker?
Thanks
Bottlebrush
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Hi Bottlebrush & welcome to RootsChat
If you click on carroll69 at the left of a post, you will see that she hasn't been online since May of this year
Once you have made 3 posts yourself, you will be able to contact her via the PM (Private Message) system. You do this by clicking on the green scrolly thing under carroll69's name
Just post 2 more messages (they can just say Hello) on here and you're in business!
In the meantime, I will send carroll69 a message advising her of your post
Best wishes
Linda
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Hi
Thank you for passing this on.
I have copies of 4 letters:
the first is to Ann Duker (who married Wm James Murch) from her mother Mary Ann nee Lampard written in about 1870-1871 Newcastle, Australia, she is living with her daughter Margaret & son-in-law John Charles Bonarius.
next, Oct 1887 is a letter from Margaret to her sister Ann
next, March 25th 1908 from 23 King St, Newcastle, AUS from Margaret to her niece Ellen (Ann's daughter)
and again April 29th 1908 from Margaret to Ellen.
These letters came from a very kind lady called Alice Bailey who is a descendant from Ann Murch nee Duker and whom I have kept in contact with ever since.
Hope this is of interest!
Anita Carroll
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How great to receive your reply so quickly. Thank you. Mary Ann nee Lampard was my GGG grandmother - I am descended from her daughter Mary Ann. I would love to chat more with you about this - I have quite a bit of information about Mary Ann (jnr) and her 3 children Annie (my GG grandmother) Mary & Walter. Several descendants of her children are researching our family history and would love to know more about them - life in England and Australia and also to solve a couple of family mysteries.
I look forward to hearing from you (I hope)
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It would be great to exchange information
(are we allowed to exchange private e-mails? if not could somebody help with insruction as to how to send personal messges as I have only ever used the beginners board, thanks)
There is a little mention of Mary in her mothers letter; she tells Ann how unhappy she is at Margaret's and that she is staying at Mary's other than that I have no information about Mary and would be very interested to here from you
Anita
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You can send personal messages by clicking on the little green scroll undeneath the persons name,to the left of this message pane.
Carol
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Many thanks Carol, I'll get the hang of this in the end!! ;D
Anita
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Hello polkadot41 and Bottlebrush, reaching out as I too am descended from Mary Ann and keen to get more information.
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Hi Bottlebrush and polkadot41, keen to hear more about George
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Hi Bottlebrush and polkadot41, keen to hear more about George, wondering if you accessed the newspapers or the inquest records.
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You need to post on this topic where George is being discussed :)
Threads merged.
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Hello,
I am descended from Mary Ann Lampard
One of the Australian letters is to Helen Elizabeth. Her sister was my grandmother's mother
Helen was a witness at the wedding of my grandparents
I am sitting here with my dad
We had copies of the Australian letters for many years thanks to a relative & have been full of hope & wonder at how any descendants may be. Very best wishes from England
I had the great pleasure of meeting Alice Bailey who typed the letters out
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Dear pixi_ears, bottlebrush & polkadot 41
You can look up 'Ann Duthie' on the internet & see a photograph of the ship that Mary Ann Duker née Lampard sailed on, an example ticket that is in the museum of Aberdeen where the ship was built at the Duthie shipyard & a picture of the lady the ship was named after
Great thanks to whoever has put info of family tree online. We did not know there was a Mary Ann Dorma née Duker who went out first in the gold rush
Very best wishes
From GG granddaughter of Annie Murch née Duker. She wrote the terrible news of brother, George Duker to their sister, Margaret Bonarius née Duker
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Another newspaper article. Less sensational but more detail, like newspapers today. Shows what George's sister, my poor Great great grandmother, Annie Murch née Duker, experienced when having to 'stand alone'. I'd love opinions but I think one particular detail suggests another cause
I am looking into other background & will post when I can.
So far that Christian Henry F. Blodhagen & Emily Bean (though her maiden name may have been Glakel. That 1881 census says she was Prussian) married in 1873 in Stepney, London between July & September according to FreeBMD (Births, Marriages & Deaths)
Christian died in 1878 aged 35 in St George in The East (where there was a big hospital) between January & March according to GRO (General Register Office)
very best wishes & thanks to everyone