RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: Redroger on Sunday 28 November 10 12:35 GMT (UK)
-
During the 19th century my Ayres ancestors were widespread in the Bottisham/Lode area of Cambridgeshire. During the late 18th century they are absent apart from one family unit. Does anyone know where they were living during this time. I am told the Ayres surname is of gypsy origin so Iwonder if they were in fact travelling around during this period. Thanks.
-
Or do all of the 19th century Ayres derive from the one 18th century family unit? Or, as happened with some Beds Ayres I worked on, are there name variations such as Hare?
The only way to go is to trace the 19th century names back to where you get a blockage, and then to ask for help with specific names and events if you can't proceed further
David
-
Thanks for the tip David, I have a plan of that time under development and expect to make some postings fairly soon.
-
hi
my grandmothers maiden name was ayres,her father was a alfred ayres he was born in whittlesey cambs,but since starting my tree ive found that the line of ayres he descends from come from the huntingdon area.mainly wennington,gt raveley and broughton.
id love to know if there is truth in the name having gypsey origin,thats the first i have heard of that,my ayres were mainly ag labs apart from my gt grandfather he worked with horses.
regards patsy
-
Tobin, I believe that the Ayres gypsy origins are pretty definite, apparently they were fairground people, there is at least one researcher on the surnames listing who is specifically looking for this Ayres family. Like yours mine were mainly ag labs, and settled in the Bottisham/Lode vicinity for many years, with apparent associations in surrounding villages. The surname does seem to be spread widely across the UK, which I think might be a possible pointer to its gypsy origin.
-
thankyou for that info thats something i will have a look into :D
-
The surname does seem to be spread widely across the UK, which I think might be a possible pointer to its gypsy origin.
This is a non sequitur! My surname is Cooper which is widely spread across the UK. It has no gypsy origins.
-
Possibly, but gypsy origins would or could help a surname become widespread!
-
I have an Ayres in my family tree and I am probably distantly related to all Bottisham/Lode Ayreses, including those who were head gardeners at Anglesey Abbey. I have never come across any suggestion before that the Ayres were Gypsies and I have done quite extensive research at Cambridge Records Office. The Ayres family were certainly well settled in Bottisham by the mid 1700s. The name Stubbings Ayres continued through into the 1800s, where I seem to remember that one Stubbings Ayres was fined for having faulty weights in his shop (even though the census gives him as an Ag lab). I recall that a Stubbings Ayres was also a stalwart of the Lode Chapel. The censuses also show numerous Ayres as born and/or living in Lode throughout the 1800s. In fact one of my grandmother's sisters (born Lode) married another Ayres from Lode! Could I ask what your resources for the Gypsy connection are? Most of my family names are scattered throughout England, so I don't think that is a pointer. Here is my Ayres connection:
Child of WILLIAM WEBB and ANN RICHARDSON is:
i. SUSAN3 WEBB.
2. SUSAN3 WEBB (WILLIAM2, JOHN1) married JOHN AYRES 21 Jun 1791, son of STUBBINGS AYRES and HANNAH PRAT.
Child of SUSAN WEBB and JOHN AYRES is:
3. i. ANN4 AYRES, b. 03 Jan 1796.
Generation No. 3
3. ANN4 AYRES (SUSAN3 WEBB, WILLIAM2, JOHN1) was born 03 Jan 1796. She married PHILIP CORNWELL, son of WILLIAM CORNWELL and ANNE ARBER. He was born 1798.
Children of ANN AYRES and PHILIP CORNWELL are:
i. EMMA5 CORNWELL, b. 30 Mar 1828; m. RICHARD RAYMENT, 25 Dec 1844, Bottisham England; b. 1831.
ii. LEVI CORNWELL, b. 30 Mar 1828; m. SARAH PETTIT, 21 Mar 1857, Bottisham England; b. 1836.
4. iii. WILLIAM CORNWELL, b. 29 Sep 1829, Bottisham England.
iv. CHARLES CORNWELL, b. 15 May 1832; m. (1) ELIZABETH AYRES, 1855; m. (2) EMMA HANCOCK, 30 Oct 1857, Bottisham England; b. 1836.
v. ELIJAH CORNWELL, b. 14 Nov 1834.
vi. ELLIS CORNWELL, b. 08 Jan 1837.
vii. URIAH CORNWELL, b. 1842.
viii. ZILLAH CORNWELL, b. 1843.
ix. JOHN CORNWELL, b. 1847.
I descend from William Cornwell.
-
A quick sweep on the internet gives several possibilities for the origin of Ayres as a surname. It is suggested as being from a Scottish noble house, a Norman who was with William the Conquerer at Hastings, and there is an alternate (and quite convincing) explanation of it as having early medieval origins, at which time it became necessary to have a surname. I have to say that I don't think it sounds like a Romany name. I do have a Lee in another line - now that sounds more convincing!
-
My source of the Ayres name having possible gypsy connections is another rootschatter, based in Ireland who informed me that the Ayres' were show people, though like you I am convinced that any such connection is a very long way back.I will try to find the thread and if I am successful post details on this thread.Stuben Ayres and Hannah Pratt were one set of my 4X Great grandparents. You will be aware of the intertwined nature of the Ayres Cornwell (and virtually the rest of the village) tree, and of the fact that you are related to the WW1 hero Jack Cornwell VC. I think an exchange of personal messages might be helpful.
-
The rootschatter who gave me the information is Steve G. I would also draw your attention to the travelling people Forum on this site. Stuben Ayres was the son of Henry Ayres who died at Little Wilbraham in 1753 and his wife Elizabeth Stubbings. Henry may have been the son of Richard Ayres on whom I have no further information other than that he had two other children Richard (b1674) and Mary (b1676). I don't even know the name of his wife.
-
Roger is correct in saying that the surname Ayres does have gypsy connections.
This is taken from the Romany Routes Journal.
Most surnames used by Gypsies are also common in the "Gorjer" or non-Gypsy population. The best known and most widespread Gypsy families include:
Boswell, Buckland, Faa, Hearn, Heron, Lee, Lovell, Smith, Wood, Young.
The following families all travelled in southern England:
Ayres, Baker, Ball, Barnes, Barney, Bartlett, Bath, Beaney, Beckett, Birch, Black, Blackman, Bland, Bowers, Brazil, Buckley, Bull, Burton, Bushnell, Butler, Camfield, Carey, Carrington, Castle, Chapman, Clark, Cole/Coles, Collins, Coneley, Cooper, Cox, Cripps, Crocker, Crutcher/Croucher/Kircher, Curtis, Davis/Davies, Dawes, Deacon/Deakins, Dixon, Doe, Draper, Duckett, Eastwood, Elliot, Essex, Frankham, Giles, Golby, Green, Gregory, Griggs, Gritt, Groves, Hall, Harfield, Harris, Hibberd, Hicks, Hughes, Isaacs, James, Jeffs, Johnson, Jones, Keet, Kempster, King, Kircher, Lakey, Lamb, Lambert, Lane, Light, Loveridge, Matthews, Miller, Mills, Mitchell, Mustow, Newland, Odam, Orchard, Page, Pannell, Parker, Pateman, Penfold/Pinfold, Peters, Pidgley, Pike, Proudley, Rawlings/Rollins, Ray, Roberts, Rose, Rowell, Rowland/Rowlands, Sanders/Saunders, Scamp, Scott, Sheen, Sherred/Sherrard, Sherwood, Sines, Small, Stanley, Stevens/Stephens, Stokes, Stratton, Tanner, Taylor, Thompson, Turner, Vincent, Wells, Wenman, Wheeler, White, Willett, Williams, Willis.
This list is by no means exhaustive.
Further names are given on the Journal page.
-
Thanks for that Nettie, A quick glance shows that I have at least five of these surnames in my direct ancestry so i am more of a mongrel than I believed. Though my contention and belief that a widespread surname is a pointer to travelling roots has not been supported it still seems to me to be entirely logical that this is the case.
-
Hi Roger,
I just wanted to show that the surname Ayres does have a gypsy connection, I do know that the following surnames Boswell, Buckland, Faa, Hearn, Heron, Lee, Lovell, Smith, Wood, Young are the most widespread of the Gypsy families in the UK as the Journal says.
As for the other surnames well we could all lay claim to some of them but as the Journal also says the surnames are common in the non Gypsy population as well.
Regards
Lyne
-
Hi Lyne, And thanks for that. The Ayres surname does seem to be widespread across southern England particularly, and, as a result of 19th century migrations i know of at least two in the 1891 census who were in the north east of England (Teeside) who in the 1891 census show their birthplace as Bottisham/Lode Cambs. One is working as a crane driver on the docks in 1891, and I thought what a change from his occupation in 1881 Ag. Lab. Whether it was an imporovement in his lifestyle is certainly open to discussion I would think.
-
As far as I can see, what Nettie has posted suggests that Romani familes adopted surnames from the host country. There is a possibility that descent may be from a Romani individual, but there is a stronger possibility that decent is from the general population who bore these names. Stronger possibility - indeed a probability - because of the cultural differences between the Romanies and the population of England (they tended not to marry in, nor to settle) and because of the number of Romany people was very small compared with the population of the country. There may have been showground people who travelled around, but are these 'gypsies'.
What we need is proof of the connection. What is the evidence that the Ayres in Bottisham Lode were descended from a Romany family or from travelling showground people?
-
I agree that proof would be needed to prove the link, probably a Y chromosome DNA test by a male Ayres with a known gypsy descent Ayres is the only way, as my descent is from the female line I am unable to provide the necessary genetic evidence, but there are male Ayres researchers who might.
-
I have my Great Great Great Grandfather Daniel Ayres, living in a Caravan on a Public House car-park in Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire in the 1850's. They were working on a Large Family Estate(The Meux Estate) at that time. Then his son Joseph moved his wife and family down to Fifield, nr. Malborough he took up the position of coachman and looked after the horses. This turned out to be another farming area owned by the Meux Estate as in North London. Research has shown that there was part of the family Ayres already living in that area. At the turn of the century the family moved back to the Watford area.
Although caravan dwellers in the 1850's, it appears like all farm labourers they moved arround with the work and working with horses may show a link to the gypsy style of living.
There was also a famous gypsy bare knuckle boxer by the name of Ayres.
If anyone has any connections with my side of the family, I would like to hear from you, so we could exchange research.
-
Peter, Do you have any Ayres' connections into Cambridgeshire? It does of course share a boundary with Hertfordshire so obviously isn;t too far away, specially interested in any Ayres or Cornwells in the area of Bottisham/Lode near Cambridge.
-
RedRoger - sorry most of my ancesters from the early 1700's seem to come from the Stokenchurch Area of Buckinghamshire, with the odd relative moving into Oxfordshire. But with 6/8 children in each generation they could well have spread Eastwards.
-
Peter It seems any connection might be a long way back then. A Y chromosome DNA test might help, but as Ayres is on my mother's side I am unable to oblige.
-
Hello
My great grandmother was an Ayres her family came from Hampshire, she married a Parker they were Romany's around Epsom, so l would think she was a Romany too, l am looking into the Ayres family name and it seems to be a gypsy name.
Anne
-
My Ayres family seem to have arrived in Lode Cambridgeshire sometime during the 18th century.
-
after doing some research on my family side of ayres,they seem to dwell at amptill bedfordshire,another name involved was wood,both ayres and wood are common practice names for gypsies...can any1 place either ayres or wood from this area into their own charts please as i having a problem seeing how they ended up there,thanks :)
-
after doing some research on my family side of ayres,they seem to dwell at amptill bedfordshire,another name involved was wood,both ayres and wood are common practice names for gypsies...can any1 place either ayres or wood from this area into their own charts please as i having a problem seeing how they ended up there,thanks :)
Hi Sheri, you might be better of posting this on the Travelling People Forum here at RootsChat, lots of knowledgeable folk will know the surnames of Wood and Ayres and most probably be able to help you.
Regards
Lyne
-
I think the first thing I shall do is to widen my search area to include Bedfordshire.My experience of the Romany community suggests that many of them are Catholics. Has anyone heard of a community which is devoutly Baptist? My Ayres relations followed this demomination in Lode. Also is Cornwell recorded as a gypsy surname?
-
The name Ayres has significant associations with funfairs. One brief link is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=431592.0
In the post war years the Frank Ayres funfair toured in the south, and there is still an Ayres family in Southall manufacturing funfair equipment. I know of no connection between my own Ayers family in Berkshire and travelling people (yet!). It's probably accurate to say that the surname has connections with the travelling community but at the same time avoiding suggesting that that applies to all with this surname. The potential for further research using DNA is quite exciting. I'm thinking of getting participating, but I need to learn more about it before going further.
Imber
-
Thanks for that Imber. As I said earlier in this thread I cannot contribute a meaningful DNA sample as my Ayres connections are all on my mother's side. However, there are plenty of male Ayres from Lode who contribute to this site certainly related to me who could take the test. It would as you say be exciting.
-
I forgot to mention this:
http://www.ayres-rocking-horses.co.uk/
Stretching things a bit perhaps, but who knows.
Imber
-
Thanks for that Imber; strangely it rings some bell from my childhood. Will look next.
-
Hi I'm not to sure who claims that Ayres are show people perhaps there are show people with Ayres name But Ayres is one of the oldest family's with Romany routes .Xx
-
It can be an interesting and frustrating exercise trying to establish what came first. The name or the people.
Historically people used just a single name to identify themselves and maybe a trade or place name if meeting someone from outside the boundary of their existence.
And while we can point to a name and have a good guess at its original location - to suggest a group of people who adopt names from a language, makes all the holders of that name from that group is tricky
Ayres come from Wiltshire as well.
A biographer of English/Australian Explorer Edward Eyre - derivation- has gone the Norman Knight route.
I think the DNA solution is a good one and Debbie Kennett has a wonderful book which shows how names can be proven to be localized using DNA."' The Surnames Handbook '' focuses on one name studies and how it can be narrowed down to one or two villages at times. ( I picked the book up for its content but also it had one of my ancestors names in it showing localized in Lincolnshire - which lead to a breakthrough)
Some Ayres come from Gypsy stock but not all Ayres do.
-
When researching Romany routes you will always come across difficulties as I have With my own My family used other alias couldn't spell read or write properly And often didn't give true details Also many Romany would travell in the summer months and rent rooms or houses In winter ,Trades would vary but mine were Scrap and rag dealers as well as Farm labourers To wood carvers Hawkers and horse dealer breeders . Many Romany also landed in London by the docks as whatever work could be found was often Taken and not turned down .The original Romany are said to have Indian routes and so were very dark skinned eyes hair You will hear of the term Dark blood or black blood . Kaulo rat as we say .
Romanys would live in tents or vardas Or even rooms . There were some family's who had Become wealthy and bought property's land and So on . If I can help in anyway Can try I was raised between houses and trailers some of my folk don't Acknowledge there routes either so trying to get info from some family members is difficult. My cousins still breed and deal with horses (grais ) and visit Appleby horse fair and still continue with trades and then some live As gorgia . With my family the name sanders comes up but they were in fact Dighton My coopers were lee But used cooper X
-
I came across some Ayres in Northampton a few years back 😃 x
-
Unfortunately the DNA route is not available to me as the Ayres were on my mother's side, and I have no sisters. Neither was there a male relative in the previous generation, my nearest male Ayres relative being my maternal grand father. I do wonder if a male Ayres in Bottisham/Lode or descended from there has had a Y chromosome DNA test?
-
That is how I would approach it. Find someone from the area who has done one and try to find the link to a known relation of yours.
Also look on here http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/ayers/
That is a one name study with corresponding dna information. Might be an idea to have a look
-
It's up to them now; as I said earlier today there are no Ayres in my generation, my grandfather had 3 daughters, and of course the maternal DNA comes from another source, Cockerton a long way back to around 1540! The hope would be another direct male line great grandson of James Ayres; b1844 Bottisham Lode, Cambs.
-
Hi , just found out my mum was a gypsy she has sadly passed away but her past was a mystery , I think her dad was John or Jack ayres he married some one called Elsie the last location I have them is Amesbury wilts, told he was a fairground boxer and that's all I no can any one help pls also I have seen a Walter Ayres from same place . Thanks
-
Hi Connor
Welcome to Rootschat.
Hopefully one of the Admins/Moderators will see your post and move it to the Travelling People Board. As your mum has passed away you can post her name on here and people maybe able to trace your Ayres line.
Hi , just found out my mum was a gypsy she has sadly passed away but her past was a mystery , I think her dad was John or Jack ayres he married some one called Elsie the last location I have them is Amesbury wilts, told he was a fairground boxer and that's all I no can any one help pls also I have seen a Walter Ayres from same place . Thanks
-
i have a birth certificate dating 1868 showing william and mary ann ayres as parents to a boy who i believe would be my great great grandad from what i have been told there were four brothers who farmed in gresham norfolk my great great grandad moved to leeds apparently my ayres family now live in derbyshire but of suffolk norfolk descent
-
I believe Ayres to be a gypsy surname which may partially account for its widespread distribution. I read that Ayres were in fact fairground people. The distribution of Ayres from the late 19th century onwards is due to the Industrial revolution, coupled to the agricultural decline. I have one Ayres working as a crane driver on the docks in Teeside, and another in a steel mill in Rotherham, both of whom were born in very rural Bottisham and Lode, nr. Cambridge. More different environments I find difficult to imagine.
-
My Grandmother is Ayres, and is pure Romany .We come from a lineage of Ayres , in England going back a couple of hundred years, including Major Ayres, king of the gypsies ,Hampshire.The Family is mainly from around Hampshire and Sussex , but would have roamed around surrounding counties. Also descended from the Lee´s and the Doe´s. Not travellers but Romany, a genetical difference.