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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: suzyvan on Tuesday 30 November 10 02:26 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I need some guidance as to how to find a marriage for a John Hogan and Elizabeth Sullivan 19 April 1970 or 15 May 1870 in Cork, These dates are taken from two of their children's birth certificates in Aust..given by their father who was the informant.
I have purchased the only John Hogan marriage on line for 1870 Co Cork... alas it is not correct, marriage was 22 Feb 1870 to Ellen O'Shea.
Is there anyway I can research this marriage? by the way they are Catholics. Do the Catholic Church hold records for 1870's?
Look forward to any advice.
Suzy
EDIT; Have changed title to get more exposure.
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Did you buy a Marriage Cert from the GRO or a transcript online ?
An 1870s marriage should be included in the Civil records, so would be in the BMD Index - see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
RC parish records for part of west county Cork and City are available (free) at : www.irishgenealogy.ie
Do you have any idea what part of Co. Cork John & Ellen married ?
Shane
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Hello and thank you for your reply.
No we have no idea where, they always said Cork we presume that's what it meant and not Co Cork, I know Cork is in Co Cork but what it means who knows.
I got the certificate of the Transcript online.
I will try these couple of links and see what I can come up with.
They also State that John Hogan's father is Richard Hogan and mother Mary Manning. Richard was a market gardener
Elizabeth Sullivan's father is down as James Sullivan and mother Catherine Meaghan.
At least 4 and possibly 5 children were born in Cork as well?
Seems they came to Australia 1881-1882.
Thank you Suzy
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Depends on the source but Cork could mean City or County... I would say I'm from Dublin, but live in Co. Dublin - not the City.
The IrishGenealogy website only covers parish records for part of the city, and I dont believe any other website covers the remainder of the city at present.
Both surnames are quite common in Cork (especially Sullivan) but I'll have a search later of the Civil Index and see if I can find any possible cross matches for John & Elizabeth...
Shane
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Thank you Shane I do appreciate any help I can get.
Suzy
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so far I've only been able to find one Co. Cork John Hogan marriage in 1870 (index references below), but no corresponding record for an Elizabeth Sullivan or O'Sullivan.
Name: John Hogan
Registration District: Kanturk
Event Type: Marriage
Year: 1870
volume : 5 / page : 354
Kanturk registration district and town are located in north west Co. Cork. I'll widen the search years and see if the year might be slightly out..
p.s. what are the dates & names of the children born in Cork ?
Shane
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the children are;
1; Richard Hogan, c 1871;
2; Mary Hogan c 1873
3; James c 1877
4; John Patrick c 1879
5; Catherine c1881-82? not sure if she is Ireland or Aust or even at sea.??
These are all circa either way ages worked from information on birth and death certificates of parents and siblings born Aust.
Thanks Shane
The marriage I got was Parish/District; SHANDRUM. wife was Ellen O'Shea. was incorrect.
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widening the search to 1870 +-2 years gives another four possible John Hogan marriages in Cork - but no cross matches that I can find to an Elizabeth [O']Sullivan. I've listed them below for reference in case anyone else can trace anything,
Of the children you mentioned I'd say Richard is the least common name so I had a look for his birth on the BMD index in Cork around 1871, but again found nothing promising.
Are you sure the family were from Cork, or is it possible that they just have left Ireland from the port (Cobh) in Cork ?
Shane
John Hogan / Registration District: Kinsale
Year: 1868 / volume : 5 / page : 477
John Hogan / Registration District: Kilmallock
Year: 1872 / volume : 5 / page : 413
John Hogan / Registration District: Middleton
Year: 1871 / volume : 14 / page : 381
John Hogan / Registration District: Bandon
Year: 1871 / volume : 5 / Page : 26
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Hi Shane,
Well it is any ones guess,They always said Cork on the certificates..that's all we have to go on.
A family member was saying he thought it was Tipperary.. but then we find this on the certificates and went with that, I agree that maybe it is incorrect, and maybe that is the reason that they left from the port of Cork?
I cannot find any shipping records for the family either .....so they are a real mystery this Hogan Family.
Was there an 1881 census records that survived in Ireland?
I do appreciate your help Shane, thank you.
Suzy
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Unfortunately no Irish census before 1901 survives in full.. a few fragments of much earlier census (e.g. 1851) survive, but none for Cork that I know of.
The IrishGenealogy website is adding further RC Co. Cork records, so it might be worth keeping an eye on that to see if any of the baptisms or the marriage shows up. It might also be worth checking the BMD index on familysearch (see the Introduction topic mentioned earlier) yourself to see if you spot anything I may have missed - or even widen the search to neighbouring counties e.g Tipperary, Waterford, Kerry or even Limerick.
Shane
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Thanks for that Shane will do all the above and keep struggling on! :(
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Hello,
The oldest child James of this Hogan Marriage changed his name from Hogan to Huggins when he married at age twenty one and remained a Huggins til his death.
I am wondering if this is a common thing with this Hogan Family name?
He was the only one of 9 children to do so......Huggins..... is similar to.... Hogan ....is this a common interchangeable thing with this name?
Look forward to any thoughts on this!
Suzy
edit; Have modified title to get more exposure
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At least in the area south of Cork City, in the 19th century, Hogan and Huggins were considered the same name. One priest or official would write it as Hogan, another as Huggins, probably with little attention to which form the bearer of the name used on any particular occasion. This was the case with many surnames, and, more frequently, with given names. Until literacy was universal, the written form of a name may not have represented what a person actually called him- or herself.
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Hi Suzy,
I have traced them all to St Finbarrs South Church, Dunbar Street, Cork which is in the City area.
They all seem to be under the "Huggins" surname.
Couldn't find marriage for Richard Huggins & Mary Manning but found some of their children's births - although John's not listed - others as follows
Wm Josh baptised 15 Oct 1843
Josh Huggins baptised 3 Dec 1844
Denis Huggins baptised 12 June 1846
Michael Huggins baptised 13 Jan 1854
Wm Huggins baptised 24 Oct 1857
John not listed it is possible that the Josh should in fact be John!!
A marriage for John Huggins & Eliza Sullivan 15 May 1870 sponsors
James Sullivan & Richard Huggins
Children for John & Eliza all as you named them but dates as follows
Richard Huggins bapt. 20April 1871 spons Richard Huggins & Eliza Sullivan
Mary bapt 16 Sept 1873 spons. Joan Harrington
James bapt 2 April 1876 Dob 31 Mar 1876 spElizabeth Sullivan/Ml Noonan
Catherine Huggins (address Togher Road) bapt 12 Aug 1878 DOB 10 Aug1878
John Huggins ( address Lough Road) bapt 7 Sept 1879 DOB 3 Sept 1879
Baptism for Eliza Sullivan (also at St Finbarrs South Church Dunbar St Cork)
11 Oct 1849 parents James Sullivan and Cathn Mihigan ( note spelling)
Baptism for James Sullivan (Eliza's brother) Baptism 1 Jan 1852
If you wanted to get any certs for the above you could write to the
Cork Registrar of Births , Marriages and Deaths, Adelaide Street, Cork and request photocopies for genealogy purposes which are cheaper and state all of the above at St. Finbarrs South Church.
Couldn't resist doing a little research today. I have a few photos of the church which I might put up.
Happy Christmas
Mary
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Note that the person who indexed the records of the South Parish invariably wrote 'Josh' when, on the original page, the priest has written the 'h' above the line, so that it is meant to be the abbreviation for 'Joseph'.
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Big thank you thank you to ftcorkmdb for explaining the name variables.
Great work celtic liberty , I had just rounded up all my John and Eliza/abeth children, was so good to get verification of the Hogin/Huggins name variable to enable me to move forward.
Is it worth me getting the grow certificates?
Thank you so much .....and also..... .
Very much appreciated
suzy
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Also South Parish: On 22 March 1853, a William, son of Richard Hogan & Marry Manning, was baptized, with godparents John Joyce and Catherine Manning. One can assume that the first William had died, and that this William was to die before a third William was baptised in 1857. A first son was almost always named for the father's father. In this case, it appears that three attempts were made to name a child William, pretty convincing evidence that Richard's father was a William.
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You seem to be a lucky researcher. It looks like Richard Huggins was born in 1818, son of William Huggins and Catherine Cogan, whose marriage I have in my database covering Passage West parish:
19 Jan 1810: William Hogan and Catherine Cogan, of Passage West, married in Passage West R.C. parish (much of which is in Carrigaline civil parish). Witnesses: Richard Cogan and Joseph Hogan.
Many priests preferred the fathers of the bride and groom to be the witnesses, which may be the case here. No children of William and Catherine were baptized in Passage West, but I see some in the South Parish.
The Cogans are still very much a presence in Passage and Carrigaline, where the ruins of Cogans' Castle are a landmark.
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hank you again ftcorkmdb
Can I ask where you got all this information? and are Irish certificates the same as English ones only giving fathers name no mothers maiden name?
Thanks again
Suzy
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are Irish certificates the same as English ones only giving fathers name no mothers maiden name?
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full registration started in 1864, so there are only birth certs from that date on. Civil birth certs contain the same details as English ones, so do contain mother full name, the detail included in earlier parish record varies quite a bit, with earlier record generally containing less information. RC baptism records usually include mother's maiden surname.
Details included on a Birth Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433041.0.html)
Shane
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Mary (I assume) and I have found those records on the website irishgenealogy.ie. For Richard's baptism in 1818, put 'Rich* Huggins' in the search box for the name and 1818 in the box for the year, and you will get Richard Huggins, son of William Huggins and Catherine Cogan. For the baptisms of Richard's siblings, put 'William Huggins' in the name box. Also try 'William Hogan'. I can't rmember if I found them under Huggins or Hogan, so you will have to try both. As for the marriage of William to Catherine Cogan, I have a database that covers marriages and baptisms for Passage West from 1795 to 1880. Send me a 'Personal Message', and I can send you information on the Cogans, to whom I am related. Frank Thompson / NYC
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Hi folks,
Yeah I did find the records on www.irishgenealogy.ie . The amazing thing about this site, I think, is that you can see the actual entry in the church register.
Suzy , you seem to have had a lot of the information yourself which was a great help. As Shane said civil records only started in 1864 so any birth, marriages or death records were held in the churches.
It would be entirely up to yourself if you felt it would be worth getting them.
As Frank mentioned go into www.irishgenealogy.ie then key in the surname Huggins and place Cork
and you get 294 baptisms and 58 marriages. You can narrow the search by putting in the christian name also. You might find even more ancestors!!!
Interestingly for the baptisms of Catherine and John Huggins their addresses are given. Did all of this family emigrate to Australia or might some of them have stayed in Ireland? You could even have some living relations still in Cork.
At least you have confirmed some of the information you already have which is a bonus.
Mary
Celtic Liberty
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celtic liberty
I am unaware of who else came to Australia, we only know of John and Elizabeth Huggins/Hogin and their children.
I have been printing the parish records but they are almost illegible......lucky they have been transcribed.
Thanks for your help, was a brick wall one day and blown open the next!
Suzy
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You are welcome, if we can be of any more assistance just ask.
Everybody on rootschat is willing to help and we all enjoy the searches.
Happy New Year
Mary
Celtic Liberty
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Hi Suzy
I know this is an old thread but I think I may have a Huggins from Douglas Road area of Cork City and was wondering if you or any member of your family had done a DNA test???
Louise
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Hi Louise,
Regards Kaz.