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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Joseph L. Oliver on Wednesday 01 December 10 04:59 GMT (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can help me track down my family ancestor Lady Ann.
In my mother's family are relics handed down to the first daughter born. They belonged to a "Lady Ann of Glen Tarff or Clontarf". There is a painted portrait, small silhouettes of women, a very nice simple ring with rubies and seed pearls, and there used to be a dress which disintegrated many years ago.
I can cleanly trace my mother's maternal ancestors to Jesse Sutherland, b. 1828 in Scotland (where there is a Glen Tarff and Glentarf). And since the relics are handed down via 1st born girls, it seems that I should be focusing on Scotland for Lady Ann.
But today a very nice person on Rootschat discovered that Jesse S. Sutherland of Scotland married James F. Burke in 1850 in Clontarf, Dublin, Ireland (for years I've known that James F. was born in Dublin 1830). So faced with these intersections of data, now I must focus on Clontarf in Ireland, with the possibility that James F. Burke had no female siblings or his female siblings had no daughters, so he got the relics from his mother and then gave them to his first born daughter. You all know the strange curves possible in family history, so in Ireland I'm looking.
Around 1850 he married my mom's great, great grandmother, Jesse Sutherland, b. 1828 in Scotland. Their first child was born in Cincinnati, Ohio 1855. They named their first daughter Mary, and their second daughter Alice. Mary had no children. Alice named her only daughter Jesse (my great grandmother). Jesse named her first daughter Alice, who named her first daughter Jessie (my mother's sister).
Lady Ann was Jesse Sutherland's great grandmother. Lady Ann would have been born between 1752 and 1783. It is fairly certain that Lady Ann was not the wife of a Duke: it is said that she was the wife of the Earl of Glen Tarff/Clontarf.
Does anyone have any suggestions for how I might proceed? I've searched some church records with inconclusive results. Any lead would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Joe O
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you can see some details on Clontarf around that time in these extracts from Thom's directory of 1848 :
Details of Clontarf (http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/clontarf.html)
Street listing page 1 (http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/img/clont1.html) page 2 (http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/img/clont2.html) page 3 (http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/img/clont3.html)
I dont know of a specific 'Earl of Clontarf' title but there is an Earl mentioned in the area with the title 'Right Honourable Earl Of Charlemont' with an address at Clontarf Strand.
Shane
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following on the detail that Monica already found in your Scotland post (see : Re: Sutherlands, or Lady Ann, of Glen Tarff (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,499152.msg3559331.html#msg3559331) ), these are the Civil Index records for the marriage :
Name: Jessie Sophia Sutherland
Registration District: Dublin North
Event Type: Marriage
Year: 1850
volume : 5 / page : 39
Name: James Francis Burke
[same index details]
You can use these details to order a marriage cert - this will show additional detail e.g. residences of the bride and groom, name of the church, occupations, names or witnesses etc
see :
Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
Details included on a Marriage Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html)
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ali/ shows the marriage entry in the register
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ali/ shows the marriage entry in the register
I should have remembered that Clontarf CofI records were online - some of my own relatives are in the same register..
Shane
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The trouble is that we're so used to records not being on line we forget that some are! I only remembered, as like you some of mine are in same register so when I saw Clontarf...
Also, as far as I recall, the Casino on Malahide Road was on Charlemont land... Charlemont Road etc
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The Earl of Charlemont's wife would be addressed as Countess but daughters of an earl have a courtesy title of Lady X Y. If the daughter married, she would assume her husband's surname but would still retain the Lady First Name if her husband was not a higher rank than her father.
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:D
Shane, Hallmark, Purpeller:
I am absolutely humbled and overwhelmed by your combined generosity. Trying to take this all in and see the parts that might fit.
Shane, yes I see the listing for the Earl. That listing is from 1848, and the Earl I am looking for would have been Jessie Sutherland's great, great grandfather, born 1738 to 1783. His age range in 1848 could have been between 65 and 110 years old, so it's possible that this is the right person, but I would have work up more relations before I can make any connection.
So, staying with the protocol of the artifacts being handed down to first born daughters, and assuming there WERE daughters born to each generation between Lady Ann and Jessie Sutherland... Oh, my brain hurts - Well, I really need to try to find marriages between Jessie Sutherland's parents and between her grandparents.
So, I've got her father's name: John Sutherland, probably married around 1830. Jessie did report in the 1860 census that she, her mother and father were born in Scotland... Argh, so that leads us away from Clontarf, Ireland.
No, if I am to assume that the artifacts came from Lady Ann of Clontarf, Ireland, then I must assume that they came from Jessie's husband, due to his parents not producing a daughter, or the daughter died before bearing children, so the artifacts passed to him.
Does this sound sane? Is it possible to check records further back? I'll see if I can figure that out.
Thank you, thank you everyone for the little pieces of the puzzle that you are supplying.
Regards,
Joe O
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Is it possible to check records further back? I'll see if I can figure that out.
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there a quite a few Church of Ireland records for Dublin city area on http://www.irishgenealogy.ie, including Clontarf which is slightly outside the city. The records for the parish of Clontarf seem to go back to about 1808.
Shane
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You should check to see if they kept the receipts for the artefacts!! ;D ;D
Seriously though, you should check the irishgenealogy site, just put in the Surname, nothing else, and see if you spot anything as you are more aware of the "Who's who" of those you are looking for, you might spot baptisms/burials too.
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Wowwwww! Coooollllllll!
Does anyone know why there are two distinct church records of their marriage?
Joe
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Normally the church keeps it's own register but marriages are the registered in local B.D.M.registry office.
Church records are church records.
B.D.M registry offices are Government offices.
Church and State!
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Dear Hallmark:
Thanks for the info.
This message is for Shane:
I'm curious about Thom's directory of 1848. Shouldn't I expect to find both James F. Burke and perhaps Jessie S. Sutherland in such a directory circa 1850?
The description describes less than 40 people in town and not that many outside of town.
By the way: what's a "Strand", and what is a "Shed"?
Thanks
Joe O
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I'm curious about Thom's directory of 1848. Shouldn't I expect to find both James F. Burke and perhaps Jessie S. Sutherland in such a directory circa 1850?
The description describes less than 40 people in town and not that many outside of town.
By the way: what's a "Strand", and what is a "Shed"?
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Directories dont list everyone and only show the primary occupants of houses, certain business owners and trades people. It's more likely that the parents would be listed than James and Jessie. Since Jessie's father is in the army, he could be located in a barracks and would only be listed Clontarf if he had a residence there.
Strand is the coast or beach, The Sheds is a district in Clontarf. I think the name derived from buildings used by the fishing industry..
Shane
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Very interesting: More color for the story.
Thanks
Joe O
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not really related - but something interesting I never noticed before about the Contarf street listing ...
At 15 Marino Crescent, Clontarf is an Abraham Stoker - I believe this is the father of Abraham/Bram Stoker the author of Dracula. Bram would have been just 1 in 1848
see : page 2 (http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/img/clont2.html) (middle column, towards the bottom)
adds yet more colour to your story!
Shane
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Shane:
Thanks for that tidbit. Not only is that interesting, it's also interesting (Wikipedia) that years later, his future bride lived just a few doors down at 1 Marino Crescent. That street is shown in the Dublin 1848 map (that you've listed?) http://roots.swilson.info/dublin1848/ThomsDublin1848.html
Plus, perusing that same Directory page, (pg. 2) under "Fairview Avenue" there is a James Burke, Barrister. Wonder if that is Jessie's future (in two years) husband? In the marriage record JB's occupation was listed as "Gentleman". Would this discrepancy rule out this possibility?
Could you please explain how this directory should be read? Are all three pages Clontarf?
Do all the bold centered headings denote streets in Clontarf?
For instance, on page 2, there is a bold heading "Dollymount", and centered below is "P. of Clontarf.---Coolock B."
Then there is "Foster-Place", with "Ballybough-road" centered below, followed by "P. St. George".
Are they simply 2 streets in Clontarf? "P." stands for "Parish", I surmise. What's "Coolock B."
What do these two listings mean?
Is there a guide to interpreting this directory?
Sorry to pester you, but if I'm to read this directory correctly, I gotta learn how.
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And on an entirely different note: Since Jessie's father is an officer in the army, would anyone know of any particular resource (online military records, for instance) that might include his name? Any resource that would shed light on his unit or simply the Army's presence in Clontarf?
Thanks,
Joe
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Yes Bram Stoker did indeed live there..
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That street is shown in the Dublin 1848 map (that you've listed?) http://roots.swilson.info/dublin1848/ThomsDublin1848.html
Plus, perusing that same Directory page, (pg. 2) under "Fairview Avenue" there is a James Burke, Barrister. Wonder if that is Jessie's future (in two years) husband? In the marriage record JB's occupation was listed as "Gentleman". Would this discrepancy rule out this possibility?
Could you please explain how this directory should be read? Are all three pages Clontarf?
Do all the bold centered headings denote streets in Clontarf?
For instance, on page 2, there is a bold heading "Dollymount", and centered below is "P. of Clontarf.---Coolock B."
Then there is "Foster-Place", with "Ballybough-road" centered below, followed by "P. St. George".
Are they simply 2 streets in Clontarf? "P." stands for "Parish", I surmise. What's "Coolock B."
What do these two listings mean?
Is there a guide to interpreting this directory?
Sorry to pester you, but if I'm to read this directory correctly, I gotta learn how.
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no real guide to using these directories, but feel free to throw as many questions as you like about Thom's my way... they are sort of my speciality (or obsession!) ...
The details on the three pages I gave the links for are all roads or areas in Clontarf.
The first section of the listing is the centre of the village the bold wording in the following sections indicate a new street or area in the village.
The Coolock letters are B=Barony and P=Civil parish.. both of these are divisions of land. Going largest to smallest we have county, civil parish, barony and townland. Clontarf is a complex example as it is primarily a village but now a suburb of Dublin city. In the directory it's both a townland, and a civil parish. The civil parish of Clontarf also contains Clontarf Sheds, Dollymount, Marino, Clontarf East & West etc
That 1848 map is one of mine...
I'll check for any more details on James Burke, Barrister - but I think his occupation would be recorded as barrister if this was him.
Shane
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Then there is "Foster-Place", with "Ballybough-road" centered below, followed by "P. St. George".
The centred italic wording sometimes listed show that the named street (in bold) is off the road listed in italics.
e.g. Foster Place is off Ballybough Rd, and in the Civil Parish of St. George. This Civil parish covers areas in the suburbs and inside Dublin city.
by chance the example you picked is the street where some of my ancestors lived!
Shane
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.....
And on an entirely different note: Since Jessie's father is an officer in the army, would anyone know of any particular resource (online military records, for instance) that might include his name? Any resource that would shed light on his unit or simply the Army's presence in Clontarf?
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For army sources you would need to look toward London - as it was the British army at that time. Some army records are available on pay-websites - e.g. Ancestry, FindMyPast etc. It might be worth posting a query on the Armed Forces (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,300.0.html) board here on RootsChat to see if anyone can suggest a possible line of research for this.
The problem with Jessie's father is that there's no proof he was actually in Dublin at the time - since he's not a witness at the marriage. Marriages usually took place in the brides parish, so Clontarf was likely the brides parish at the time of the marriage, but her family origin could be elsewhere.
Cant think of any barracks in that part of Co. Dublin at the moment.. most were in the city or to the south or west of the city.
Shane
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The problem with Jessie's father is that there's no proof he was actually in Dublin at the time - since he's not a witness at the marriage. Marriages usually took place in the brides parish, so Clontarf was likely the brides parish at the time of the marriage, but her family origin could be elsewhere.
Hmmm... Regarding Jessie, if this is THE Jessie, she was born in Scotland, as was her father.
And regarding witnesses: I had assumed that the witnesses would be friends (ie bridesmaid/Best man) of the couple. Was it more normal for the fathers to witness, if they were present at the ceremony?
Edward Burke was the witness for James. Perhaps it was Jame's brother?
Joe
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no real rules as to who the witnesses might be be - often friends, or close family, but I have seen a father as a witness. In this case all we know is that Jessie's father was not a witness - if he was then it least it would prove he was alive and in Clontarf at the time.
I checked the index for Thom's 1848 but dont see anything promising for James Francis Burke.
James Burke, 14 Gardiner St Upr - barrister (Dublin City)
James Burke esq., Wiliamstown (south county Dublin)
James Burke, 6 & 7 Kevin St Lwr - pawnbroker (Dublin City)
and for his father John Burke :
Mr. John Burke, 16 Summer St N.
John Lardner Burke, LL.D. T.C.D., 3 Nrth Gt. George's St - master of the Bective house seminary
John Hogan Burke esq., 12 Kildare St
All addresses are Dublin City.
There are a few others with trades that dont seem to fit for a gentleman - e.g. merchants, auctioneer, grocer, clerk & coach builder etc
A 'gentleman' would normally be listed with a Mr. or Esq. (Esquire) and often without an particular trade or business.
Shane
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I was just checking that 2nd marriage record you mentioned, and see an extra detail that might have some relevence ..
Marriage Record 2 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/faafc50870715)
This record looks like a parish record in the older format, the other record mentioned earlier is in the format used for Civil registration.
Part of the details included on the form has : "...were married in this church by licence with consent of Guardians". The other marriage on the same page is by "..licence with consent of parents".
Shane
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Guys, I have to admit I have obsessed about James Francis and Jessie since this query started on the Scottish boards ::)
I have looked at amongst other things:
- google books archives and newpapers
- UK 19th Century Newspapers
Anything and everything really to see any mention of particularly the Burke family. Got a little bit excited about a Sir John Burke Snr in the right age group to potentially be father to James, who together with his son, also John Burke went on to create the massive genealogy archive and works that are now Burke's Peerage records....but no, no son James Francis in the family.
I have also tried hard to find any records of substance in the US for James and Jessie. Specially for Jessie, without knowing her mother's name, it will be hard to find records of substance for her birth in Scotland and from this her family. Her father John (and what a common name John Sutherland is in Scotland unfortunately), could have travelled all over the world for all we know in his role as Army Captain.
What I have also been banging my head on this morning is trying once again to find any records in the US for James and Jessie. Apart from an 1880 census entry for them with daughter Alice in Cincinnati, Ohio, cannot see anything for them in 1860 and 1870. With the blip of the 1890 census, they may have been deceased by the time of the 1900 census. What was James' occupation in the US? His entry in 1880 is a bit meaningless with simply 'collector'.
Joe, have you been able to do local searches for death certificates, wills, death notices and obituaries etc.? Anything really that would add to info on parents' names for James and Jessie.
I'll stop obsessing now and get me to bed 8)
Monica
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I hate to sound ungrateful, but... This is absolutely ridiculous! How do I even begin to address all the things you are finding and asking?
Shane!!!!
Monica!!!
You folks are absolutely Kah-ray-zeeeeeee!!!!
(I hope you know that's offered up in the nicest way.)
Blimey, anyone could understand ME being obsessed, being related to these ancestors. What's YOUR guy's/gal's excuse?
My interests aside, with all your efforts, I just hope that this leads somewhere productive. And, this is the right Jessie and James, right? ;)
Shane, yes, the "guardian" thing. I was wondering about that. And what is the significance of the phrase "by license with consent of xxx". Who all, exactly, does this phrase refer to? In Cincinnati, I have corresponded often with a Dioceses archivist who knows all the Latin, German, and English lingo of the records. Perhaps I should start up a dialogue with a similar expert on Irish turf.
And thanks for doing all of that searching. It would take me years... Incredible... So very interesting. I can't thank you enough.
Now for Monica. I was wondering about you today. Had no idea the trouble you were up to.
In answer to your question about US info on Jessie and James: yes, I have scoured all the US Census records for their names, but like you find very little there. Mostly I have traced them through digitized Cincinnati directories. (Luckily for me James F. was proud of his middle name, because there are LOTS of J./Jas./James Burkes scattered around Cincy.)
James F. was a ticket collector for one of Cincinnati's "inclined" railroad lines (basically a tram). He also installed lightning rods.
1855 is the first year I’ve found a record of James’s presence in Cincinnati: a church baptism record for their first daughter Mary on October 7th. It also reveals Jessie’s maiden name of Sutherland.
I've searched some of the Cincy directories between 1849 and 1900. 1876, so far, is the first year I see "James F. Burke" in the Cincy directory. 1892 is the last year that name is listed. Jessie Burke is not shown: women in a household usually aren't unless they have a trade.
In Cincy there is an 1882 record of a "James F. Burke" seeking naturalization, who indicates that he departed from Dublin and arrived in Philadelphia, and sadly, no, he does not indicate when that voyage happened.
Have no records of his and Jessie's deaths, but since I've only recently gotten the critical address info needed to query the Archdiocese of Cincinnati via snail mail, I have yet to do so. Have searched online for wills, with no results. I am dying to spend a week in Cincinnati to research non-digital records. 5 hours away – what’s my excuse?
The 1880 US Census shows that James F. Burke was born in Dublin. His father and mother were also born in Ireland. Jesse was born in Scotland, as were her father and mother. I found Jessie's maiden name "Sutherland" in the birth records of her children.
Oh, here's an item that puzzles me: James Francis Burke and Jessie Sophia Sutherland were married in a Protestant church in Ireland. Yet the Cincinnati birth records for their children are from a Catholic church. Does this raise a red flag for our J&J of Dublin?? Forget I ever brought that up.
It's Midnight... I'm shot.
Goodnight...
Thank you. This is very fun.
Joe
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It's been quiet, suddenly. Perhaps my goofiness was out of line in my last message. If I offended anyone, I apologize.
Joe O
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I cant see any problem with your message.. maybe just a little bit enthusiastic and excited about all the details, which is good thing!
I think you next step is probably evaluating all the details to see how all this links in with your Burke line and also see if all this helps answer your original query re 'Lady Ann of Clontarf'
At least you now have Jessie and James father's names and occupations which means you have a chance to work back in time. I suspect that both families may have come from outside Clontarf originally, so you may have to widen your search area back up again to trace further back in time.
Meanwhile I'll keep an eye out for any further Burke or Sutherland details in Clontarf & Dublin..
Shane
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Thanks Shane (and Monica in a PM):
Will have to lay off a bit as Christmas is approaching. Will try to get a few record requests off to the Cincinnati Archdiocese before then, but that usually takes a month or two for a response.
Monica, you asked about kids of James Francis and Jessie Sutherland for the sake of determining naming patterns. I'll go even further to show you the whole lineup as I currently understand it:
Lady Anne of Clontarf, b. (guess) 1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783)
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Daughter: b. (guess) 1788 (b/w 1778 & 1798)
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Daughter: b. (guess) 1808 (b/w 1803 & 1813)
or Son John Burke
If daughter: she marries John Burke (b. ?? Ireland). They have at least one child:
If son (John Burke), he marries _________ _________ (b?). They have at least 1 kid:
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James Francis Burke b. 1830
James marries Jesse Sophia Sutherland b. 1828. They marry in Clontarf, Ireland 1850 and move soon thereafter to Cincinnati, Ohio, and have 3 kids:
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Mary Helen Burke b. 1855
Alice Burke b. 1858
John James Burke b. 1861
Mary: does not marry, dies childless
Alice: marries Charles Curtis, has only one child: Jessie b. 1875
John: can't trace
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Jessie Curtis marries Joseph Koplik in Cincinnati 1896. They move to Des Moines, Iowa and have three children:
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Allen, b. ?, dies in infancy
Alice Esther, b. 1901.
Milton A., b. 1905
Allen dies in infancy
Alice marries Leo Carlino, has 4 children
Milton A. has an illegitimate son with an unkn. Irish girl, name thought to be David, who is untraceable.
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Alice Esther Carlino's kids:
Jessie (Grace),
Alice Ruth,
Patrick,
Dawn,
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That's it for now. Hope you all have a great holiday.
Joe o
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Season's greetings to you Joe. Let's hope 2011 brings lots of new information for you :)
Monica
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Okay....
I know I said it can wait, but, I can't help it.... This goes round and round in my head each night so I have to take some action.
So the marriage records say that Jessie Sophia Sutherland and James Francis Burke got married at the Church of Clontarf. The record says they are both members of that parish. Since Jessie was from Scotland, and since James has reported previously that he was born in Dublin in 1830, now I want to find out which church in Dublin James' folks were married in, so that I can gain some ground.
I've worked out the likely names of J & J's mothers by employing the Irish naming pattern.
Mary Helen b. 1855
Alice b. 1858
John James b. 1861
IRISH NAMING PATTERNS
1st son would be named after the father's father (meaning James F's father would be named John, which is true.)
1st daughter would be named after the mother's mother (meaning Jessie's mother is named Mary)
2nd daughter would be named after the father's mother (meaning James F's mother is named Alice)
Would it have been possible that the children were named utilizing the Scottish naming pattern that Jessie might have insisted on???
If so, then
SCOTTISH NAMING PATTERNS
Same as above for boys.
1st daughter would be named for the father’s mother. (Mary Helen)
2nd daughter would be named for the mother’s mother (Alice)
So, Jame's Francis Burke, b. 1830 Dublin
Father John Burke, b. abt. 1810 Ireland
Marries Alice? or Mary? __________, Ireland, abt. 1830
Jessie Sophia Sutherland, b. 1828 __________ Scotland
Father John Sutherland., b. abt 1808 Scotland
Marries Mary? or Alice? ___________, Scotland, abt. 1830
So.....
Can anyone advise how the heck I set about finding the right churches to inquire at?
Joe
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The problem with James birth is that 'Dublin' is not very specific. It can mean the city, county or suburbs. I would recommend searching for his baptism before trying to find his parents marriage, as there are many Burke families and you will need all the clues you can find to help confirm any possible matches.
Probably the best place to start the search is with the Dublin City parishes online on www.irishgenealogy.ie
Naming patterns can sometimes provide clues, but not everyone followed them.
Shane
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Not sure where you got the "Scottish naming pattern" from but my understanding was always that 1st daughter was after maternal grandmother, 2nd after paternal grandmother, 3rd after mother, etc.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?561
http://www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm (mentions reversing order of 1st two children for both boys and girls)
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aghadowey:
On re-checking my Scottish naming pattern source, I realize it gave conflicting info. You are correct. So the Scottish and Irish patterns agree as far as Jame's and Jessie's kids are concerned, correct?
And Shane, yes, after writing that email yesterday, I was wondering how generic Jame's citing of "Dublin" might be. So... Since he was living in Clontarf when he was married to Jessie, I would love to comb through the same Clontarf Church records to see if they contain Jame's baptism and birth record, and perhaps his parent's marriage records.
Thank you both for your insight. It's very helpful.
Regards,
Joe O
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Since he was living in Clontarf when he was married to Jessie, I would love to comb through the same Clontarf Church records to see if they contain Jame's baptism and birth record, and perhaps his parent's marriage records.
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The Clontarf Church of Ireland records go back to about 1808 and are included in the IrishGenealogy website. I did have a look, but saw no sign of a James Francis Burke baptism c1830...
There's only a very small number of Burke records in the parish - none seem to have any connection to your Butlers as far as I can see.
Shane (edit - corrected surname typo)
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Just a point to note on children's names and using them as a guide. We have a gap of at least 5 years between James and Jessie's marriage in 1850 and the birth of Mary Helen in 1855. They were a young couple at marriage who likely had more children. One of the reasons I was trying to see whether we could find them in either 1860 and 1870 censuses was to check whether any more children showed, particularly any born between 1850-54. Failed miserably to find them in those years though in the US :-\
Monica
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Hi Monica and Shane:
I've been searching today with Scotlandspeople for Jessie's parents and am not having success, though I'm not sure I'm fully utilizing the advanced features.
Sent an inquiry to ScotsFamily.com. Looks like he is a professional researcher. Will see if he comes up with any tidbits, and how much he charges.
And Monica, yes, that shadow between 1850 and 1880, with no info from the 1860 and 1870 censuses, is very frustrating.
My only hope so far is James F's application for naturalization, saying that he sailed from Dublin and arrived in Philadelphia. I would kill to see the actual copy of the ship manifest in order to find the year, and the names of accompanying family. But so far no luck in finding the manifest.
Regards,
Joe
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To be honest Joe, might be an idea to hold off viewing entries on Scotlands People, until we get a better steer as to what we are looking for, given it is a pay to view site. It can become a costly business when you are searching with little info. I have looked at the 1841 census for Scotland for inspiration but nothing immediately jumped out. Also, looking at IGI on www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true for Scottish births and christenings, brings up numerous possibilities for a Jessie (or Janet as both these names are common variants) born to a John Sutherland circa 1828 with a couple of years either side.
Have you considered the suggestion of putting up a new post on the US board here on RootsChat? American RootsChatters will hopefully be able to assist with US records or sources that we can't think of at this point :)
Monica
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I checked the index for Thom's 1848....for his father John Burke :
Mr. John Burke, 16 Summer St N.
John Lardner Burke, LL.D. T.C.D., 3 Nrth Gt. George's St - master of the Bective house seminary
John Hogan Burke esq., 12 Kildare St
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A few more possibles for John Burke from the index sections for later years :
1850
John Burke, auctioneer, furniture and commision warehouse rooms, 50 Henry St
John Burke, Cashel Hotel, 25 & 26 upr Bridge St
John Burke, clerk of quit rents, 6 Nassau St
John Burke, coach builder, 11 Whitefriar St
John Burke, grocer, wine & spirit merch., 27 Bridge St upr
John Hogan Burke esq., 12 Kildare st & Khyber Pass, Dalkey
John Lardener Burke, LL.D. T.C.D., master of the Bective house seminary, 3 Nrth Gt. George's St
John Burke, tea & spirit merchant, 79 Amien St
1852
Most of the same people as 1850 are still listed, except for the coach builder. One addition in that year - a John Burke, proprietor Spa Hotel, Cooldrina, Lucan (Co. Dublin)
Not everyone is listed in these street directories, but someone described as a gentleman as, John is on James' wedding cert, probably should be ...assuming he was alive and living in Dublin.
Shane
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This is a shortened version of the description of Clontarf in "Chapters Of Dublin". Interesting in itself as a picure of 18th C Clontarf, but also giving names of the then Gentry re your mysterious Lady Ann.
"There was a day, however, when Clontarf had more of life and animation than it now possesses, when people of good condition came to stay at the Brierly Baths, when titled carriage folk drove backwards and forwards, and when the grand gates of Marino stood open to receive the fine company that came and went, visiting the Earl of Charlemont.
Marino is nearer to Dublin than Clontarf, on the Fairview Road. It is an old house, having been once the residence of a Cromwellian Attorney-General, Basil by name. It was a gift to the "great Earl" from his stepfather Thomas Adderley.
The letter in which this gentleman makes this present to his young stepson shows a nice feeling not always existent in the difficult relationship in which they stood to one another. There is, perhaps, rather an over-strained humility in his address, while at the same time he describes his gift as not inferior to any house near Dublin, either with respect to situation, taste, or convenience.
Lord Charlemont accepted the gift, but soon his craze for building and altering asserted itself, and the Lodge, as it was then called, became a sort of hobby, upon which he lavished large sums of money. The first thing was to change its name to Marino, which was undoubtedly appropriate, as the waters of Dublin Bay wash its southern verge.
Not that he began it with this object. He was in the zenith of his mental activity - an activity which required many channels. Architecture was one of these outlets; and on his return from Italy he was, as it were, possessed with an art fever........
.... and when Charlemont House was completed, and its gallery and museum crammed with objets d’art, the Earl returned to his original idea of making a retreat for himself in the leafy woods of Marino. In 1757 Sir William Chambers (then Mr. Chambers) drew the design, and a beautiful model was made by Bonomi, which is now in the Irish Academy....
.....The deceased gentleman was known to have been a collector of bric-a-brac and curios, and to have two cabinets and some Chippendale furniture which he had bought at the Charlemont sale. The fame of the Charlemont collection was enough to attract brokers from London and Cheater as well as Dublin. Curiously enough the cabinets went for a mere song. The Chippendale fetched a large price.]
It had a strong attraction for the late Lady Charlemont (Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William Somerville, Bart.) - her very heart was in the place. She often said it was like the love Queen Mary had for Calais, and that she too would die when Marino was no longer hers. Her words came true, for she only survived the sale of her loved retreat a few months. The writer has many pleasant associations connected with Marino, where many of the days of her youth were passed, that golden age when all and everything is tinged with a halo of glory.
The Crescent, close to Marino, was, it is said, built to annoy Lord Charlemont by obstructing his view on the Dublin side. It has never taken as a place of residence.
At the farther end of Clontarf, on the road leading to the green lanes, is Clontarf Castle, which is built on the site of a monastery belonging to the Order of the Knights Templars. The old Castle, which since Queen Elizabeth's time has been in the possession of the family of Vernon (the same as Admiral Vernon, whose tomb is in Westminster Abbey), was rebuilt in the earlier portion of this century. Its late owner, John Venables Vernon, was for many years a well-known figure in Dublin society.
Another Clontarf mansion is St. Anne's, formerly the residence of Sir Benjamin Lee Guinness, *and now occupied by his son, Lord Ardilaun, one of the most unobtrusive benefactors of his own country, Lady Ardilaun being well known as an accomplished artist. The views here reproduced give a good idea of this fine mansion.
*His Wife was Lady Ann, maiden name Lee. (My note) Ref wikepedia
PM
PS Have you considered contacting: http://www.clontarfonline.com/history.htm
Or taking the items to a jeweller or art expert for their provenance. There may be marks on the Jewellery which could link them to a particular goldsmith etc.
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Pastmagic:
Oh my gosh... Could this be her?? This is bizarre: the Wikipedia article notes that Anne Lee's husband Arthur Guinness lived from 1768–1855. Almost exactly one year ago, I estimated 1768 as the birth year of the Lady Anne of our family (b/w 1752 & 1783).
And yes, a week ago I contacted Clontarfonline/history with a two sentence inquiry. I just located their reply in my spam folder, and have sent them the full information they requested.
In the meantime, I did a Google search with the term "Lady Ann of Clontarf" and came up with the following on Google Books: "A genealogical and heraldic history of the landed gentry of Ireland" By Sir Bernard Burke, Ashworth Peter Burke.
Is it simply coincidence that a Burke is the author? The document is fascinating, but I can't fully make sense of it. Does it hold any promise for tracing the Lady Ann you've found to any Burkes of Clontarf?
Page 459:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ha0EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA459&lpg=PA459&dq=Lady+Ann+of+Clontarf&source=bl&ots=Hq_LYw-Hzv&sig=bZMoN0DpYSKglRmGKFVXZ1clvVE&hl=en&ei=sVwGTYXpDM7YnAfIg8DlDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Lady%20Ann%20of%20Clontarf&f=false
Can't wait to hear more. Thank you so very much!
Joe O
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The Crescent in Marino caused a lot of tension at the time!
I reckon the Roses who were witnesses were the Roses of Mount Temple whose lands ran up to Killester and the Guinness lands. They were witnesses BUT were they also the guardians?
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That Burke was Sir Bernard Burke. Lots of full text versions of his landed irish gentry on Google Books. Lot of info on Wikepedia about him also.
The on line free serachable version is at:
http://thepeerage.com/p30212.htm#i302111
But I have not searched in it for you. I'd be a bit cautious that you have found your lady Ann quite yet! PM
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I agree PM...not quite sure we are yet on the trail...
Sir John Bernard Burke was the Burke family I mentioned earlier:
Got a little bit excited about a Sir John Burke Snr in the right age group to potentially be father to James, who together with his son, also John Burke went on to create the massive genealogy archive and works that are now Burke's Peerage records....but no, no son James Francis in the family.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Burke
This relates to his father John Burke http://thepeerage.com/p33294.htm#i332937 - his children are listed, last born in 1820. His mother by co-incidence was called Ann ::) but no James Francis shows as born to them.
Monica
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Hi Joe,
I am still wondering about the objects left by the mysterious Lady Ann. Have they ever been dated or identified? Was there a photo ever taken of the wedding dress? Some one might recognise who it was designed by. Love to see them up here, if so. if they were in my family I would try and find a museun or gallery or jewellery specialist to see what clues they hold. Like a personal antiques roadshow! Were there any other things in the collection other than those you mentioned?
Monica, of course you are right - there might have been an intermediate generation of sons, I missed that! back to thinking,,,,,PM
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Have Wills been checked?
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PM et al:
This is so so so very exciting and intellectually fascinating. Thank you all for your interest, your efforts, and your musings.
Monica, I forgot about your earlier exclusion of Sir John Burke Sr. Sorry about that.
PM: the only artifacts are the ones I mentioned. And no photos exist of the dress. The only thing I possess is the photo of the ring. My cousins and aunt have the silhouettes, portrait and ring.
No, the artifacts have not been dated, nor have they been brought in for appraisals. The painting and two of the silhouettes are in Florida with my eldest aunt, and she has not found anyone in her small town to do any appraisals. There might be someone in Chicago where I live that might have some expertise, but the last time I inquired was last year and I came up with no one. Doesn't mean a qualified expert doesn't exist here. Perhaps I should find someone and get the thing looked at.
The strange thing about the portrait of Lady Anne is this: just after WW2, my grandmother brought the protrait to the Art Institute of Chicago to have it reframed (I can hear your collective screams). And yes it was in the original frame. When the folks at the AIC frame shop opened it up, three beautiful silhouettes fell out of the backing. I've seen one: it is not simple or crude at all. Very detailed and beautiful. And my aunt says that the three are definitely not the same woman. They are distinctly three different people.
My Aunt remembers the frame: it was a "table" frame, less than 12" tall, with a heavy base that supported the frame in a gimbaled support so that the frame could be tilted up or down (and I believe side to side)
I've inquired at the AIC if they have records dating back that far from their frame shop. They actually might, but I do not have the exact date of the transaction for them to search for the records.
Hallmark, I'm not sure what exactly you mean about wills. Do you mean for James Francis Burke?
That's all for now folks.
Sincerely,
Joe O
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Yes, very loud scream indeed! Anyway of getting a photo of Lady Ann? To compare with other photos in the UK National Portrait Gallery etc. Quite a lot of 18thc. portraits on line now...and it depends on condition whether photographing is ok...How do you identify this lady as Lady Anne? Oral tradition or is there an annotation?. I love the hidden mystery within a mystery angle...PM
Have established there was only one Lord Clontarf. "Chapers of Dublin" again: Re Kilmanham and the Knights:
Their ambition, which grew with their prosperity, alarmed Henry VIII., while their wealth excited his cupidity. Their destruction was a foregone conclusion; but their fall was accelerated by the pusillanimity of the Prior, Sir John Rawson, who meekly surrendered to the King the abbey and church, together with the fine pasturelands and crops growing in rich luxuriance.
For this giving of no trouble Sir John was duly reinstated in his sovereign's favour, and was further rewarded by being created Lord Clontarf, a title which became soon after extinct.....
And so the Knights Hospitallers sank into oblivion, sharing the fate of all the monastic orders in England and Ireland. The fine monastery and church became a ruin; and when in 1565 Sir Henry Sidney was appointed Governor, he found it unfit for occupation."
Clontarf Castle before the 18th Century: (Just Wikipedia}
The first castle on the grounds, of which no trace remains, was built in 1172 by either Hugh de Lacy, lord of Meath, or his tenant Adam de Phepoe. Clontarf was subsequently held by the Knights Templar and, after their suppression in 1308, passed to the Knights Hospitaller, until they were in turn deprived of it at the Dissolution of the Monasteries. The last prior, Sir John Rawson, was created Viscount Clontarf in 1541 in return for surrendering the castle and its lands to the crown.
Does the legend in your family allow that it could be much earlier..?
Off to have a Look for Rawson's wife and kids....PM
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PM:
Oh, yes... the allure of the mystery, plus the many layers. It is absolutely intoxicating. I almost don't want this to stop. But I do, and I'll tell you the reason why.
My great grandmother Jessie is revered among my mother and her siblings. My mom's parents were fairly nuts and abusive, while her grandmother Jessie and grandfather Joseph were unconditionally loving and genuinely kind. My mom and her eldest sister spent lots of time with Jessie and Joseph, whose fortune was wiped out with the Depression. Despite their loss and extreme change in living conditions, they were happy, and they loved to share their happiness and whatever else they had with their grandkids. They also told great stories that my mom and her sisters and brother loved to hear, and the story of Lady Anne reached back the furthest. Because of the artifacts, and the tradition of handing them down through the girls, generation to generation, the connection with Lady Anne and my mom and here sisters was very magical, yet very real.
There were many other objects kept of Jessie and Joseph's lives, but when my mom's father died in the 1980's, his second wife left the country without telling anyone, after selling or trashing all of the family heirlooms, photographs, diaries, etc. All that we found was an empty house that we couldn't go in because it had been sold. It devastated my mother. She couldn't speak for two weeks.
So my aunts are in their 80's and my mother in her 70's. Their brother, who was very much a part of this research and discovery, passed away one year ago. Lady Anne has been so much a part of their joyous memory of their grandmother, their entire childhood. The stories of her are part of what bonds them together. Years ago it became my quest to make real this person who's presence they have felt all their lives. Before any more of them leave this earth, I would love to be able to give them that gift.
So, the help that all of you are providing is quite a gift to myself, but is especially appreciated on behalf of my mother and her siblings. They are thrilled.
PM, I digress. Answers to your post with my next post.
Joe
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PM:
In answer to your question, the identification of the portrait being of Lady Anne is strictly an oral history. So far my aunt has not detected any writing on the front of the painting. Who knows what was on the backing of the original frame. I'm fairly certain she has looked at the back of the actual painting and found nothing. I will contact her today to emphasize the importance of having it carefully photographed so we can all see it.
And regarding your question about if Lady Anne could have lived earlier. No, I doubt it. My aunt is very clear that her grandmother Jessie said this: "Lady Anne was my 3rd great grandmother." In researching my aunt's stories, I've found that she is rarely mistaken.
Regards,
Joe O
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I do have a similar situation in my own family, and it turned out a usually very reliable source was out by 200 years on a legend. The facts were correct, the generation wrong.
Anyway, for what it is worth, the only Lord Clontarf, despite starting out as a catholic priest did marry....
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/r/o/Michael-W-Brown/GENE4-0059.html
http://www.archive.org/stream/gentlemansmagaz260unkngoog/gentlemansmagaz260unkngoog_djvu.txt
"John Rawson, born Abt. 1457 in London, ENGLAND; died 1560; married Female Unknown.
Sir John left a daughter, Catherine, who married Rowland Whyte, son of Patrick Whyte, second Baron of the Exchequer in Ireland. This armorial of Sir John Rawson was placed in one of the windows of Swingfield Church, a chapel dedicated to
St. Peter. The Parish of Swingfield was included in the property of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, and is located five miles from Folkestone, in the County of Kent. "
So for what it is worth, depending on the validity of the source there was a
putative Lady Clontarf, who had at least one daughter, just out on dates for yout grandmothers account....interesting to see if following Catherine Rawson Whyte would lead to your Burke's! Just speculating.....PM
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PM:
Thank you for your efforts, I hate to throw cold water on this, but my Aunt recalls being told that Lady Anne's husband was not a Lord or a Duke, he was an Earl.
And I'm having problems quoting from previous posts. Can you help me with that?
Joe
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PM:
Thank you for your efforts, I hate to throw cold water on this, but my Aunt recalls being told that Lady Anne's husband was not a Lord or a Duke, he was an Earl.
And I'm having problems quoting from previous posts. Can you help me with that?
Joe
According to Purpeller's earlier post (see reply #6 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,499228.msg3560153.html#msg3560153)) the wife on an Earl would be known as a countess, but daughters would have a 'courtesy title' of Lady X.
to include a quote from a previous message just click on the quote button on the reply you want to include - or if already in the reply mode, then scroll down the screen and click the small 'Insert Quote' Link. Ensure that the cursor is in the message edit box at the location you wish to insert the quoted message.
Shane
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I know, it is madly confusing! If your grandmother is right, then you are looking for the Daughter of an Earl in 1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783), first name Ann, wih Contarf connections. As there is clearly no Earl of Clontarf around at that or any other time, that is hunt the Earldom Thimble Territory!
To make matters worse, Catherine Rawson, daughter of John Rawson Viscount Clontarf, married Rowland Whyte, who had connections to the Earl of Howth! :
Google books - Patrick Whyte Exchequer dublin (http://books.google.ie/books?id=wIsUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=Patrick+Whyte++Exchequer+dublin&source=bl&ots=ML7djFiBkv&sig=v6T2fEv2o5LoWoJ3ZXBExRlUpnA&hl=en&ei=xLkHTbSnJZSxhAe1-Z3tBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Patrick%20Whyte%20%20Exchequer%20dublin&f=false)
Anyway, maybe that is enough of te interesting speculation.. The wills question by Hallmark...I assume this means your family wills in the USA and anything in the Irish National Archive on the Burkes? PM
Mod Note : link shrunk
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Just remembered there is one family who may fit the bill, and had property near Clontarf: The Earl of Altimont, (Brown) dates approximately right... who had a wife called Anne Gore. They had very strong Burke Connections, through Mary Burke, Grandaughter of Grainne O'Malley.
I donnt know if you know much about the Burkes in Ireland:
http://indigo.ie/~wildgees/burkes.htm
Joe, I am sure this must be a lot to read up on as you only found the Clontarf marriage so recently...
De Burgh is the Irish for Burke.
Oddly enough, this, in relation to the earlier speculation about Lady Anne Guiness states:
"Part of the Burke property which the Brownes retained was later sold by the Brownes to Sir Benjamin Guinness about 1860." And the Burke of Burke's peerage is of this family too! PM
PS also of interest might be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westport_House
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The wills question by Hallmark...I assume this means your family wills in the USA and anything in the Irish National Archive on the Burkes?
Yes, have Wills been checked in the Registry of Wills and Deeds in Blackhall Place, Dublin or even abroad, which may mention property in Ireland?
IF the Roses were the guardians.... Why? Were they related?
If a man was given "title" of Gentleman, what "title"was given to his wife?? Mr Burke, gentleman and his wife Mrs Burke, Lady?
Just wondering!
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Not an expert, but I think "Gentleman" as occupation on BMD's meant he lived off private means. His wife would be plain Mrs. However, You have a point - could John Burke have had a title is the question you are posing?, and the Vicar did not record it? What a lot of conundrums! PM
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Not an expert either but I was thinking in the terms of "Ladies and Gentlemen....."
Introducing Mr Burke and his lady wife....etc.
Just getting back to the marriage in Clontarf, and what is actually known;
Edward was most probably a brother, so does anyone know what happened to him?
The witnesses COULD easily be the guardians.
They were married with consent of the guardians, not the parents. So, did the parents not consent, or were they deceased? The father was in the army, so where did he serve? Where was he at time of marriage?
The marriage cert gives clues A, B, C, D, E... but to get to Z one needs clues F, G, H, etc...continuing on from what is on the cert.
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http://www.archive.org/stream/irishcompendiumo04nich Contains the descents, marriages, issue, titles, posts, and seats of all the nobility of Ireland; with their arms, crests, supporters, mottos and Parliament robes ... Also a supplement, shewing the antiquity, dignity, and use of armories ..
http://www.archive.org/details/irishmarriagesbe02farr Irish marriages, being an index to the marriages in Walker's Hibernian magazine, 1771 to 1812.
These might be worth searching!
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Great finds,Hallmark. I agree with you totally about going from a-z lineraly, I am hoping to find James Frances Burke in some minor branch of the Gentry....
Maybe Joe could print out the Compendium for his mother and aunts - might jog their memories and it is a lovely ould bit of the history in itself. Give Joe stressed speed, I did a bit of an Earl Hunt. Of the Right Dates, Cumberland married an Ann, but according to Burke's peerage, (often misses children) none of the children had issue. Howth married a Margaret Burke,
Then there is this chap: Major William Burke the second son of William and Margaret Burke acquired part of the Bermingham and Quansbury estates by his marriage to Matilda, daughter of William St Lawrence 2nd Earl of Howth. ( Joe Howth is beside Clontarf)
There are a couple of Sir John Burke's as well, but no obvious Clontarf or James Francis Burke connections. I am still with Rawson of Clontarf Castle myself, hoping I can find my way downwards,....Joe may not realise what an intermarrying lot the Irish Earldom was -all of the families mentioned so far are many times over related, and all have a Burke popping up somewhere, thanks to the DeBurghs. if we ever do find Lady Ann, she will probably bring a coach load of other notables into his family tree!
Re: The Barrister Shane found, he may be the one that edited Edmund Burke the Orators speeches!
Is it possible that Jessies family were Irish, and she was just born in scotland because her father was in the Army? There are a lot of Sutherlands
on irishgeneology.ie, some in Beggars Bush Barracks. I'll keep hunting....PM
Cant find sight of Jane Ross or Edward anywhere...
Hope joe had a good nights sleep - talk about info overload!
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Well I don't think Clontarf was the family church anyway, otherwise there would be more records for them.
The bride was living in the parish but under guardianship. One doesn't have to live in a parish very long to "be of that parish"..
To me, it looks like a "one off" marriage....plus these people had estates elsewhere, Charlemont in Tyrone, Roses in Monaghan etc at same time, so records may not even be in Dublin, forget where Lawrences came from.
You can't really do just one family alone because, as you say, there are so many families intertwined with each other you get 2nd, 3rd cousins marrying each other, but you only know this by doing each connected family and get the cross-connections.
Even now one gets back to the "old" spellings, deBurca etc. Not sure if you saw Chris de Burgh's lineage on WDYTYA.. they traced his line right back to the Bayeaux tapestry and even picked out the person as depicted on the tapestry, I've seen "Sootherland" on records too... so you really need to keep an open mind on spellings etc.
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COMPLETE WILDCARD HERE BUT;
There is marriage in 1809 of a Rev John Burke to a Mary A Guinness, looks like she's daug of Dr Guinness..
Speculation; Does Mary A = Mary Ann? Could Rev John Burke be a Gentleman also?
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/d-298-1-1-025.pdf
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Guiness owned the land at st. Anne's, and his wife was also called Anne..have to check if they had any children - if Mary Anne was their sons eldest daughter.....still speculating....Joe are you still with us? St. Anne's is also beside Clontarf.....
Re The marriage entry....I think both - a clergman was considered to be a Gentleman. But I imagine that his occupation might have been then listed as Clergyman. But again, vicars had their individual ways of recording.
I do agree with all your earlier points. I guess I just wanted to see if Lady Clontarf had any provenance, and to give Joe an idea of the complexity of the gentry! Obviously, if he was in Dublin there would be plenty of archival research he could do, Hayes catalouge, newspapers, marriage settlements, wills, army records, land etc.
It is all too possible that they lived in Clonarf for the required time! I suppose Joe could contact :The Representative Church Body Library, Braemor Park, Churchtown, Dublin 14, Ireland
Telephone +353 (0)1 4923979
Fax +353 (0)1 4924770
E-mail library link on:
http://www.ireland.anglican.org/index.php?do=about&id=43
to find out if there were any banns, license or Guardianship papers asocciated with the marriage. Or if the Rev. Burke had any children....
I wonder if the consent of Guardians meant she was not 21?
Ms. Ross and Edward continue elusive....PM
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:o
PM and Hallmark, you'll understand if I say that if ever there was an appropriate time to invoke Monty Python, this is it:
MY BRAIN HURTS!
At this point, things are so beyond my comprehension, like trying to study a King James Bible being swatted back and forth by a couple of tennis pros. Oye, oye, oye.....
Can't we just find out the names of the wives of John Burke and John Sutherland, find the parents of those two couples, then find their parents (lets see, that would be 16 people, right?), and among them find a Lady Anne associated with Clontarf, and be done with it?
Nah.
The little that I can fathom is fascinating.
I recall a Mary Ross listed in Dublin in that Thom's Directory, for what it's worth.
And regarding the question "Is it possible that Jessies family were Irish, and she was just born in scotland because her father was in the Army? There are a lot of Sutherlands
on irishgeneology."
No. Jessie reported in the 1880 US Census that she and her parents were born in Scotland.
Wills, huh? Well, I'll ask my aunt if she knows of any wills from her grandparents. Otherwise, I'm not sure. I have checked an online source for wills in Cincinnati a couple of times for James F. Burke, but nothing struck me as being connected. I'm sure I could find more if I went to Cincy.
Gotta turn in. I am truly humbled and appreciative of the scholarship behind your posts.
Regards,
Joe O
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Hi Joe
This is all because a bunch of idiots burned all the censuses before 1901 by accident in Ireland...and because civil registration did not start until the mid 1800's. So no where to look them up except other sources. Of which, if you are trying to find anyone with a title, are many, obscure, scattered in various repositories around the city, and not often digitalised.
Despite all this, there are lots of people around who have managed to track em back!
Try emailing the Cof I address, as that is a start!
Also if you can see if there is any more detail in the stories of your Mum and Aunts...
One thought...What was James occupation in America?
PM
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I wonder if the consent of Guardians meant she was not 21? ..... Record says of Full Age!
Ms. Ross and Edward continue elusive....PM
I make it out as Jane Rose, so does irishgenealogy on one record, and I reckon she's one of the Roses of Mt Temple Estate whose lands ran to Killester, as did the main avenue of St Anne's at that time.
Joe, if you look at the record on wildcard link I posted, you can see how basic earlier records were esp if you compare it with the Clontarf one!
I have checked an online source for wills in Cincinnati a couple of times for James F. Burke, but nothing struck me as being connected... that's a good thing in a way, it could be in King's Inn, Dublin!
We need a Guinness or two..... :D or three 8)
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This is all because a bunch of idiots burned all the censuses before 1901 by accident in Ireland
Not true, they were pulped and recycled due to paper shortage, then later records were burnt when in safe keeping in the Customs House in 1916
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Right as Usual..
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a bunch of idiots burned all the censuses before 1901 by accident in Ireland
Ouch! That hurts.
The best I can glean about James' first twenty years in Cincinnati from the skimpy data I have from directories is that he was a laborer. After his grand daughter was born, from 1877 to 1887, James F. is shown as a ticket collector on one of Cincinnati's inclined railroads: strange railcars that allowed folks to go up and down the steep hills of Cincinnati.
And regarding "Ross/Rose". Yes, Rose it is.
Oh, I'm tired. Must retire.
Thanks
Joe
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Hi Joe and Hallmark,
The old brain went into typo mode last night on this one. I knew it was Rose, sorry folks! Joe that is very interesting about Labourer and ticket Collector - its such a big jump from having a father styled "Gentleman" on the Cert.
I was just wondering, given the 1850 date, if there was some kind of family finnancial crash soon after the marriage that caused them to leave. Forgive me for asking if it is here already, but do you have a precise date of arrival in the US for them?
PM
Representative Church Body Library
Clontarf Parish Registers of Baptisms (from 1808 to 1914), Marriages (from 1812 to 1914) and Burials (from 1812 to 1875).
Clontarf Parish Minute Books from 1815.
So if all the available records are on line, if they were long term residents, other family members should have appeared, as you say, Hallmark. Wonder if there is anything in the Minute Books re Guardians?
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from History of Irish census records (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/history.html) (National Archives)
'The original census returns for 1861 and 1871 were destroyed shortly after the censuses were taken. Those for 1881 and 1891 were pulped during the First World War, probably because of the paper shortage. The returns for 1821, 1831, 1841 and 1851 were, apart from a few survivals, notably for a few counties for 1821 and 1831, destroyed in 1922 in the fire at the Public Record Office (Four Courts) at the beginning of the Civil War.'
The 1861 and 1871 returns were destroyed once the required statistics had been extracted from them.
Shane
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Sorry, 1922 is correct!
Just thinking, the eldest son normally inherited, so if he wasn't the eldest he may have got nothing or a "token" amount, just a thought..
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other than the lack of Burke parish records in the area I've no concrete evidence for this .. but my feeling is that the Burke family could have come from somewhere outside Clontarf, and the 'Lady Ann of Clontarf' title may be mixing up two timeframes. i.e. the location is correct for the 1850 marriage, but James' family came from another part of Co. Dublin... which is where the Lady Ann lived..
p.s. are we assuming that Lady Ann was an ancestor of James on the Burke side of the family ?
Shane
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just went back an re-read the first post (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,499228.msg3559824.html#msg3559824) in this thread it seems Lady Ann may have been on the Sutherland (i.e. Scottish) side of the family... so maybe searching for details of Jesse's baptism and family details in Scotland would be worthwhile... although I think there may be quite a few Sutherland families in Scotland.
Lady Ann was Jesse Sutherland's great grandmother. Lady Ann would have been born between 1752 and 1783. It is fairly certain that Lady Ann was not the wife of a Duke: it is said that she was the wife of the Earl of Glen Tarff/Clontarf.
Shane
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Well it started off looking by for the marriage, which was found. All that is known from that is that Jessie's father was Capt. John Sutherland and that Jessie was of full age.
Lady Ann was Jessie Sutherland's great grandmother, so John's grandmother. From there you'd really need to work out a "guesstimate" for Jessie's birth, John's marriage etc and try to find them.
Jessie (Jessica?) was born 1829 at the latest as she was full age in 1850, so as Shanew suggests this would probably your best step to take at this stage and see what develops from there.
The only other thing is are there assay office stamps on the ring which may help date it?
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What has also been established is that someone of full age got married by Licence rather than banns, and had guardians who consented to the marriage.
(I wonder if she was tied by some inheritance to having somebody's consent in order to marry?) Maybe you should contact the church and ask if they have any idea why?
http://www.clontarf.dublin.anglican.org/
(Noticed they are on Twitter???? - what next?)
The minute books from the parish do exist for the right year, so there might be an answer to some of the questions these facts raise.
Also, the name Clontarf turns out to be where Jessie herself married, to everybodies surprise.
Also, according to Burke's peerage, John Rawson of Clontarf was the only holder of the only title Clontarf in The Irish nobility. His grandaughter was therefore a Lady Ann, Daughter of Lady Clontarf, (In the right time bracket) The Daughter married into the Guinness family. ( possibly knon locally as the ould clontarf wan and the young clontarf wan.. :) )While Jessie's US census returns give her birthpace as Scotland, there is no reason why her grandmother, Lady Ann should not have been Irish, given that the family tie her to the name Clontarf. There are several contenders for Lady Ann amongst the local families with Clontarf Connections, interelated closely to the original Rawsons. Lots of local rellies for Joe ...who I see already thinks it is the purveyor of pints...!
Jessie being born in Scotland, but daughter of an Army officer could have been visiting relatives or on a posting in Dublin with her family.
Jane Rose is a local name in Clontarf,but I don't know if they had any titled family. At the same time, this story has travelled five or six generations, so parts of it may be wrong on dates.
When Joe gets the photo of the portrait - and maybe the other items - and puts them up here, maybe the date of her clothes will sort that one out.
There are good guides for silver and gold jewellery marks on line too. It is possible that lady Clontarf was the first owner, and she passed them to her granddaughter. But this is speculation.
For Joe the problem is with the slender info he has on Jessie, getting her birth cert on Scotlands People is like trying for Mary Murphy born Ireland c. 1828, especially as the population was so vast!
Maybe Shane could try Thom's for the Witnesses - Jane Rose and Edward Burke? Any Dublin Rose? Also once Joe has the photos we might get more ideas to help him. Hallmark,I don't know anything about The Roses re Title - did they have one? On your thinking Jessie's mother's maiden name might be Rose...
One possible one to check on Scotlands People Search.
I accept totally that the Clontarf wedding is fortuitous and they may all be from some out post of the Empire with a Clontarf sounding name...
Monica, I know why you said you were loosing sleep on this one! I would love to get it sorted for Joe's Mother and Aunts - I keep on thinking of that wedding dress...is she wearing it in the portrait? And hope Joe has found Clontarf Church on Google Earth. Nice spot to Marry in.
Shane, Joe's family oral tradition says the ring etc came down by the female line, but if in one generation there were no girls, then it might be the male line, which is why we are trying for both!
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...but if in one generation there were no girls, then it might be the male line, which is why we are trying for both! :D :D
Very doubtful, if women get their hands on Jewellery they keep it!! ;) ::)
How many Jessie Sophia Sutherlands can there be, born Scotland, with father John, born 1825 to 1829 (estimate) in Scotland? If, for example, there were 10, what information would there be on those records? Enough to differentiate between them?
From memory... the Roses were same family as Rose Estate in Monaghan and Mount Temple wasn't a 3 bed semi with a little garden.
On the original post there is doubt about Glenn Tarff or Clontarf, is it even certain she was Lady Ann of Clontarf?? I'm just going by what was posted.
If I was searching for Jessie I'd be also using Jessica Sophie... is Jessie a Full name?
So, using naming patterns who would Jessie Sophia be named after? As possible clues!
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Hi Hallmark, I don't have a sub to Scotlands People,so cannot do birth look ups.
In the 1841 Scotland Census: Can't find any John Army Captain at all. This is the one that comes closest :
Johen Sutherland, age 55 Born 1788, Wife Margaret aged 51, born
1786, Dau Jessie Sutherland aged 13, Son Watter( their spelling) Mclean Sutherland
They are living in Forfar in the County of Angus, at Sprout Street.
His occupation is Mesenger at Arms. can't pick him up in 1851.
(A messenger-at-arms is an officer of the Scottish Court of Session, responsible for serving documents and enforcing court orders throughout Scotland. Messengers-at-arms must have a commission as a sheriff officer. They don't exsit in Irleland, but could a contarf Vicar turn that into Army Captain? They were known as "Officers of the King".)
Next closest is:John Sutherland, age 53 b. 1798
Wife Ann Sutherland
All born Halkirk, Caithness Harpsdale. Occupation given as farmer 7 Acres
including Dau Jessie Sutherland 23, plus 6 siblings. She is a bit old, but this is the 1841 census. There is more detail if Joe wants it, but nothing to really make a connection.
However, there are lots of Jessie Sutherlands of the right age in schools, in households where there is no father on the night of the census, in households with other people etc.
No Jessie Sophia anywhere. Tried all the variants Lots of Janets with father John. mostly crofters and ag labourers, so hard to imagine an Army Captain...unless... he got tided up for the register, as happens!
Joe, when did they arrive in the US and where? Bet they bypassed Ellis Island! Could they have been in Ireland for a while after the marriage?
Hope you have recovered from the shock of the missing censuses.....PM
Found one Edward Burke as proprietor of the Hog and Armour Inn (Sp?) in Thom's Directory of Ireland 1850. Hard to Read Google books version. No JFB though. PM
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PM, Hallmark:
:o :o :o :o :o
All I can say right now in answer to some confusion:
In the 1880 US Census, Jessie and James report the following:
Jessie was born in 1828 in Scotland. Her father and mother were both born in Scotland.
James F. was born in 1830 in Dublin, Ireland. Both parents were born in Ireland.
Regarding their arrival in the US: from my US thread searching for info on James and Jessie Burke, "Ohio Susan" found two transcripts on An...try that is not 100% reliable, though they seem likely to be our subjects. Unfortunately An...try does not show the original document. ( If anyone knows another source to view the doc, please let me know).
M (For Mr.?) Burke, (21 yo, laborer, male),
Jessie Burke (23 yo, laborer, female)
Emigrated to the US from Liverpool, arrived Philadelphia Oct. 3, 1850 on the Bark Falcon.
The facts that they departed from Ireland and arrived in Philadelphia jive with James' Naturalization application that I found. The ages are both correct. The date seems likely, considering they were married April of 1850. The transcripts do not indicate whether they were traveling together or not.
My God, you people are amazing.
Joe
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Jessie Sophia was born in 1828 in Scotland. Her father was John and mother (?) were both born in Scotland.
Q.1 Is Jessie a shortening of Jessica?
Q.2 Given your naming patterns who was she named after?
Q.3 Are there assay office stamps on the ring which may help date it?
IF the census ages are correct there can't be all that many Jessie Sophia Sutherlands born in 1828 to a father John!
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In Scotland Jessie can be used as a form of Janet.
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I had a search through the free index on the IFHF/RootsIreland website for a James Burke born 1830+-5 to a father John. The pay-website covers some parishes in North and South County Dublin outside the area covered by IrishGenealogy. There was just one result with no middle name, RC and baptised 1833 and in the parish of Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire)
Shane
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Hi Everyone,
I tried for all variants of Jessie with and without Sophia in the 1841 Census, including Jess and Janet. See earlier post. There are about sixty women of the right age, - / + 2yrs. C. 15 would be Jessie's living in households where there was no male father. The ones I gave were the two best. No Jessie Sophia at all! Maybe one quick look on Scotlands People is warranted....
Have been throgh the list of all British Titles active and exant and can find none sounding remotely like Clontarf other than Rawson...
From previous experience I know that the people writing down the details used "labourer" sometimes in that period as occupation for Irish emigrants, irrespective of actual occupation.
Anyway, thanks for that info, maybe if we saw copies of the Naturalization Papers here we might spot someting? No rush Joe - its almost Christmas! ;) ;) ;)
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You know, I was on Scotlands People a year ago looking for records of Jessie and parents. Where the heck did I write that stuff down?
I'll check and get back.
I've just gotten a full page response back from a researcher from Clontarf History, and am checking to see if they are okay with me posting it here. Nothing drastic. Will post it as soon as I get the go ahead.
Regarding Jessie Sutherland's first name. Have no idea if it was originally Jessie, Jesse, Jessica or Janet. Or Bob.
Regarding naming patterns: Well,
My aunt with the name of Jessie is the first born daughter of Alice Carlino (ne Koplik).
Alice Koplik was the 1st born daughter of Jessie Koplik (ne Curtis)
Jessie Curtis was the 1st born daughter of Alice Curtis (ne Burke)
As far as I know (there IS a 5 year gap between James and Jessie's marriage and the 1st birth that I've found), Alice Burke was the 2nd born daughter of Jessie Burke (ne Sutherland). Alice's elder sister was Mary Helen Burke.
So I can't make out from this who Jessie is named after.
Don't know about the ring. I'll ask.
Naturalization papers, original copies? I guess I could contact Cincinnati or ??? to see if that's possible.
Jessie Sophia
Q.1 Is Jessie a shortening of Jessica?
Q.2 Given your naming patterns who was she named after?
Q.3 Are there assay office stamps on the ring which may help date it?
Burned out. I'm going on vacation with my family for a week starting Saturday, so things are going to be nutz today. May not be able to get back to this for a few days. I will have my computer with me, but it would be bad form to have my head stuck in it too much.
Thanks, all.
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Don't blame you for feeling burnt out! I am still trawling for a link for Jessie or James with the various Contarf and wider Gentry, and so forth.
Really, I think two of your best chances, on your side of the pond, is the dating, if possible, of the Portrait of Lady Ann with its accompaniments, and a going over with your mum and Aunts any stories they remember about the past - clues can turn up in the fabric of the story, that might have meaning to us this side.
Maybe you should leave your computer at home!
PM :)
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PM et al:
Yes, I'm working on my cousins to get the ring looked at and the one siloughette scanned, an on my aunt to get someone to photo and email me the portrait. Will let you know as soon as anything arrives.
I still have yet to hear if I can post the letter of the researcher from Clontafonline, but they mention something about Lady Anne being a myth, and that there never was an Earl of Clontarf. That's kind of disturbing!
Perhaps I simply don't understand the context of this statement, but hopefully I'll hear back from them today and post the page.
Joe
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Hi Joe,
While we wait:
Shane - found these Burkes in Shaw's Dublin City Directory 1850
John, 3 Little Mary St (hat mart)
John, 34 North King St (provision dealer)
John, 3 Synnott row (tenements - no detailed listing)
John, 26 Lower Temple St (bootmaker - spelt Bourke in street listing)
John, 17 Queen St (Esq.) (Only one qualifying as gentleman)
John, 30 Barrack St (dairy)
John, 10 Portland place (clerk)
John, 50 Henry St (cabinet maker)
John, 25 Upper Bridge St (Cashel hotel)
John, 26 Upper Bridge St (grocer)
John, 11 Whitefriar St (coach maker)
John, 79 Amiens St (grocer)
John, 39 Wicklow St (grocer)
John, 151 Church St (provision dealer)
http://www.dublin1850.com/dublin1850/index.html#B
Also:
Edward, 109 James' St (proprietor - Hog and Armour Inn - spelt Edmond in street listing)
Francis James Junior, 5 Grenville St (barrister - Hilary term 1839)
James, 51-52 Marlborough St (pawn broker)
F., 3 Talbot St (Esq.)
Rose
From the Law Directory (not listed at stated address)
A. O'Grady, 7 King's Inns quay (solicitor)
James, 32 Great Brunswick St (solicitor)
Sutherland
Mrs. A., 47 Great Brunswick St (occup not listed)
E., 17 South Richmond St (dentist)
Mrs., 15 Synge St (dressmaker)
However, http://www.libraryireland.com/DublinDirectory1850/s.php on line index has this lot as well:
Sutherland, E. 17 Richmond street, South
Mrs. 15 Synge street
Mrs. A. 47 Brunswick street, Great Sutter,
Robert, 3 Sherrard street, Lower Sutton,
Arthur, 3 Chatham street
Francis, 2 Christ Church place, and Copper alley
Frederick, 19 Kildare street
James, Greenfield, Harold's cross, and 12 Mary's abbey
James, 76 Great Brunswick street
Miss, 191 do.
Mrs. 63 Manor street
George, 33 Mabbot street
William, 5 Phibsborough avenue
Mostly Northsiders!
John Burke, 27 Richmond street, South ( Not very plausable for Clontarf Church, but a Sutherland in the same street).
Joe, these are bits of info which may just tie in as we go along. It shows several families fairly close to Clontarf in 1850
http://www.araltas.com/features/burke/
Has an interesting Burke in Ohio.
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there's longer list of John Burkes in that Shaws listing than there is in either 1850 or '52 Thom's, although I only listed the possible 'Gentlemen' earlier.
I checked that Queen's Street address in Thom's 1852 and the John Burke has gone from #17 and a Mrs. Lawless is at the address
In Thom's 1850 the Queen street address is occupied by a Miss Mary Burke. A Mary Burke (with no Mrs or Miss) is listed in 1848. Unfortunately #17 is not listed in 1834 or 1843 - there's gap in the numbers
One other listing caught my eye in 1848... might be nothing.. a Francis J. Burke, 5 Grenville St. He's barrister. Could he be a relation and the J. be James ?
If so maybe that's where our James name came from - only the other way around ?
p.s. checked that Edward Burke, proprietor of the Hog and Armour Inn in 1852 and his business is at 25 Garden lane and 109 James' St.
Shane
just spotted that your listing mentions the Greville st Burke... and it is Francis James...
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Yes, Shane, I saw that too!
Another thought. Joe is running another thread for the Ohio end ,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,501354.msg3585133.html#msg3585133
and I see there is a possibility that either Jessie or James may be Catholic. In this case maybe they needed the consent of the Church Guardians to be married in Clontarf, especially as it was License not banns - (Joe we are only five years off the introduction of Civil registration here in 1845 for C of I only) - which would explain the note on the registration. If so, it should be in the Minute Books, and possibly even their addresses if they were not in the parish. Wish I could pop into the Cof I library in Rathfarnaham!
Re Myth - There are items which must have originated somewhere, and there technically is one Viscount of Clontarf. Sometimes for hereditary reasons, Viscounts were also Earls, but not this one. And his daughter, called Ann, would have been known as Lady Ann. They and/or their many relatives intermarried with Burkes. Easy to see how confusion could creep in over seven generations. It is family folklore, and in my experience there is usually some truth and some distortion over time!
One of which could be that the name of the church got mistaken for her surname, or title. In which case she could be lady Ann of anywhere! making Progress with Jessie and James Francis and the objects may get us there in the end!
PM
PS Jane Rose was as, Hallmark suggests, of the Mount Temple lot, maybe she organized it for them to marry at Clontarf. Still no joy on her!
PPS Just discovered that in 1850 the Church was at Clontarf Castle ( Home of Viscont Clontarf) not where it is today! - and guess who pops up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Ireland_Parish_of_Clontarf#The_nineteenth_century
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since it's a Church of Ireland marriage when it was the established church, it's possible that neither James nor Jessie were CofI. Once they were resident for a time in the parish beforehand they could apply to marry there. In a recent WDYTYA Dervla Kirwan's ancestors married in St. Peter's CofI in Dublin - they were Jewish & RC..
Shane
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Totally agrre, Shane, which is why I think that may explain the "Guardians" bit on the register.
To cheer Joe, who probably has no idea what we are up to going round the houses like this, here are some of the houses:
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.....
Maybe Shane could try Thom's for the Witnesses - Jane Rose and Edward Burke? Any Dublin Rose?...
...
sorry - missed that section of your earlier post until now. I was wondering why you were looking at Edward Burke earlier. Will follow that up now...
Shane
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listings for surname Rose in the index of Thom's 1848,'50 & '52 :
1848
James Rose, soda water manuf., 6 Silver St
Richard Rose, barrister, 114 Lwr Baggot St
Wellington A. Rose esq., 3 Merrion Sq. West
1850
Alexander O'Grady Rose, solicitor, 7 Inn's Quay & Limerick
Mr. James Rose, Mountrose, Dalkey
James Rose, solicitor, 33 Gt. Brunswick St & Limerick
Wellington A. Rose esq., 3 Merrion Sq. West
1852
James Rose esq., Monta Rosa, Dalkey
James Rose, solicitor, 33 Gt. Brunswick St & Limerick
Wellington A. Rose esq., 3 Merrion Sq. West
Sometimes people are not included in the index but may appear in the street listings, so I checked the section for Clontarf in 1852 - but didnt see any Rose listings..
I looked at the two different marriage records and on the older format one, the bride's witness name looks like Ross to me... two s' at the end. (marriage record 1 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/cafdd80870716) & record 2 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/faafc50870715) )
Searching for that as a surname shows a promising result in Thom's 1850... a Jane Ross, dressmaker, Clontarf Sheds. Maybe a friend - or the person who made Jessie's wedding dress... or just a handy witness ?
p.s. no listing for Jane in 1848, but there is a Mrs. Ross (no occupation) listed at Clontarf Sheds
Shane
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Well done Shane!
(Joe may not realise that sometimes witnesses could be just anyone who hapened to be around at the time...)
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some Edward Burke listings.. that I dont think were mentioned ... none that near to Clontarf though...
Just one in 1848
Mr. Edward Burke, Heytesbury place
1850
Edward Burke & Co., haberdashers &c, 3 Lwr Baggot St.
(and the inn keeper)
and 1852
Edward F. Burke, wine merchant, 58 Mid. Abbey St & 44 Lotts. res. 12 Nrth Gt. George's St
(as well as the Inn keeper & haberdasher)
Shane
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Just looking at the 2 entries and while one is transcribed Rose and one Boss it certainly looks like Ross is correct.
One looks like Rose but the other is clearly Ross. I'm posting the 2 together and it was the 2nd one I looked at and it looked like Rose but the first one is clearly Ross as witness to me.
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I can't possibly comment on all the last posts, except for I absolutely agree on "R-o-s-s".
This absolutely is my last post till a few days go by.
Thanks all. If I don't post till after Christmas, I hope you all have a very merry one.
Joe
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I lied.
Here's one of the three silhouettes:
Gotta go!
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Do have a very merry Christmas, and thanks for all the fun you have provided....we will take up the trail again after Christmas.
I have been told by someone who knows about these things that it is probably British, c.1830. It is a lovely pic. Jessies mother? they were the equivalent of the photo back then, and available to all classes...with a bit of luck the other two wil be earlier.....Looking forward to the next one...PM
Later :http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/silhouette.aspx,
Just in case anyone is interested.
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Hello All!
Hope your holidays have been enjoyable. We had a gorgeous snow on Christmas eve into Christmas day.
Well, here is the letter sent by the researcher from Clontarfonline. Don't really know how it will affect the conversation, but for what it's worth:
"Did you go onto the Rootschat that was listed at the end of the email.? Some interesting exchanges of info.
From reading the chats between this Joe and other people he has got the marriage of James Francis Burke and Jesse Sophia Sutherland in Clontarf in 1850. That information came from the Church of Ireland registers which are now on a free website under the Dept. of Tourism, etc.
www.irighgenealogy.ie. This website has some Dublin CAtholic and C. of Ireland records as well as all of Kerry and some Cork - more will be added in due course. The good thing about it is that some parishes have the actual images of the original registers on it - including Clontarf.
Therefore Joe can print it out - he may have done so already.
Look at it yourself. There is also a list of the parishes covered and the dates.
.
There are 2 entries for this marriage - one is 20 April 1850 and another is 29 April - one is the church register which states that the marriage took place with the consent of guardians [other marriages took place with the consent of parents] - perhaps because she came from Scotland or had to have the permission of guardians to marry?
The other record is the civil record which the rector would have filled out for the civil authority. Unusual to have the 2 records. The correct date is 20 April 1850. They also got married by licence [not by banns] - the more well off bought a licence more for privacy - the original marriage licences were all lost in 1922 which would have given more information. I see that the witness was an Edward Burke - could be a brother - the other witness name is Jane Ross - but transcribed incorrectly as Boss or Rose. James's father is John Burke, a gentleman and the bride's father is John Sutherland, a captain in the Army. No baptism for James Francis found in Clontarf - so could have been baptised in any parish in Dublin or elsewhere - not all parishes are on that website.
I also found the family in the 1880 Census in US - also freely available on web - I am sure this Joe has already found this & has checked other Census in US.
There is no Lady Anne of Clontarf - that's a myth - there was no Earl of Clontarf.
There is some mention in this Rootschat about the Guinness family - but Sir Benjamin Guinness married his cousin Elizabeth Guinness [not Anne Guinness] and his daughter was Anne. His son, Lord Ardilaun married Olive White. Dont know details of Lord Charlemont from Marino - but that would be in Burke's Peerage - family name is Caulfield.
I checked Griffiths Valuation [www.askaboutireland.ie] free to search - it lists occupiers of every house and land in the country - Dublin was surveyed in 1848 and 1850 - it lists only the head of household - it was a property tax - remember rates? James's father John if he lived in Clontarf at that time should be listed but only found a Patrick Lawless & John Burke as joint occupier of a house in Back Lane of Greenlanes townland - valued at £4 - this does not look like a gentleman's house.
The chat website also mentions that someone had checked Thom's Directory for 1848 - no James or John listed for Clontarf - but you would need to check a few years of Thoms to see if the family was listed."
Well everyone, hope this provides something to get things rolling again.
Regards,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Glad you had a happy xmas. Don't think that that adds much to the discussion, as we knew there was no Earl of Clontarf anyway! One other odd thing I noticed was there is another Jessie Sutherland from Scotland living in Howth in the 1911 census old enough to be your Jessies mother. But not in 1901...
However, when you upload the second and third shilouettes and the portrait, we will have a better idea of dates, as the first one can't be your Jessie but one generation back from her.
What we have established I think, is that there are several possible contenders for Lady Ann, but no proof of any knd. Also several potential family members for both J and JF, but again no proof, all living in Dublin at the time of the marriage.
I feel still that two stories have got mixed up - the marriage which took place right at the old C of I church at Clontarf Castle, where the only two people who could ever have been called Lady Clontarf lived, and a titled ancestor who may or may not have Clontarf connections, or be one of these two. Apart from the marriage cert, which technically has not been absolutely proved to be J and JF, but on balance of probability most likely is, the artificats and your family stories are what may tell us more! The ring, from the photo looks like a cluster ring, which could be a 16th/17th C or 18th or 19th, depending on the setting. Any good antique jewellery store could date it and see whether it has an asssay mark, which will give maker, country of origion and date of manifacture. If it's later, it will have a foil setting. As it is the original property of your lady Ann, she cannot be older than her ring, even though it can be older than her...Also as the Clontarf contact points out, the licence suggests either wealth or a privacy issue...so the parish minute books may have something to add.
Best wishes, PM
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PM:
Thanks for the summary. It really helps. I will call my aunt today to see if she's got the portrait photographed yet.
As for the "Parish Minute Books" you mention... How can they be accessed? Should I contact someone online? Or do I need to send a snail mail inquiry?
Thanks, and Happy New Year, all!
Joe O
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...
As for the "Parish Minute Books" you mention... How can they be accessed? Should I contact someone online? Or do I need to send a snail mail inquiry?
....
Church of Ireland Vestry Minutes Books are not available online and are held by the Representative Church Body Library in Rathfarnham, Co. Dublin. Website is at : www.ireland.anglican.org/library
The books for Clontarf go back to 1815.
They dont do research on behalf on people, but it might be worth asking about the marriage details in general (i.e. the licence by guardian notation etc) and maybe asking nicely about the minute books - maybe you could talk someone into having a quick look for you.
Shane
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Banns of marriage were required in areas under British rule, including Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The banns consisted of an announcement in church for three Sundays prior to the wedding. This prevented people from marrying in haste and also gave any who might object time to learn of the match.
Giving a fortnights notice to the registrar is still a legal requirement in Britain. Three months is required in Ireland.
Banns were a much more thorough way of asking anyone who might object to "speak now or forever hold your peace."
Valid objections;
- they are that either of the parties are already married,
they are under the age of consent,
they are too closely related
if either has concealed injury or disease that would make it impossible for them to have children.
These are also grounds for annulment.
The marriage you got is just a standard marriage, they applied for a Marriage Licence like 1000's of others. The only "interesting" thing is that it says "with consent of Guardians" ...in that they didn't need anyone's consent as they were of full age and could do what they liked! Legally, they didn't need Guardians. (E.G. Was there something in her father's Will, if dead, stipulating this? etc)
There is no family history for the families attending, or even living in Clontarf in the Parish Records. To be "of the Parish" they didn't need to be living in the Parish for very long. At present it is 15 days!
You have new FACTS, a few new names but trying to join them to someone of 2 or 3 generations back in time with "family rumours" you have is an impossible task based on what you actually know. I've one of mine marrying there but it was also a one-off, they didn't live in Dublin nor were they "of the parish", they just decided to get married there by licence!
It's very doubtful if there will be much (if anything) in the minute books as they normally contain minutes of parish meetings to distribute funds, pay for repairs etc.
You really need to separate what you know from what you think and just deal in facts. Even "Lady Ann" could be a Pet name for her and not a title!
~~~~~~~~---------
Marriage by Licence Today;
One of the parties must be resident in the district for at least 15 full days immediately preceding the serving of notice. If the other party to the marriage resides in the same registrar’s district a minimum of 7 full days is required immediately preceding the serving of notice.
If both parties reside in different districts a residency of 15 full days in their respective districts is required. N.B. England is classed as a district for the purposes of serving notice.
If parties are serving notice in different districts, they should arrange to do so at approximately. the same time.
One of the parties must also have presided in the district for at least 15 full days before the licence is granted.
The marriage may take place 8 days after the serving of notice, subject to availability.
~~~~~~~~--------------
Even in the period of the Clontarf marriage it wasn't that much different, you will see many using a Hotel as their "residence" to comply with the rules!
Jessie may have only lived in Clontarf for a month or so "to be of the parish".... there's nothing special about getting a licence.
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With Ross as witnesses they COULD be guardians, just spotted this on a list while looking for someone else in Ontario..
Death; SUTHERLAND, Margaret Ross, f, August 13, 1908, age 93 years, Scotland, cause – blank, d/o don’t know, both born Scotland, infm – John M. Sutherland of Embro, West Zorra (Oxford Co.) 022594-08
yes, could just be coincidence but stranger things have happened!
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Yes, I agree that the minute books are a long shot - sometimes there is nothing, sometimes quite a lot. I referred to the Guardians before as possibly a term for the vestry, who would give consent to the marriage for one reason or another.
I know this is a very difficult one to get to grips with, but I am conscious of Joe's wish to find an explanation for his elderly relatives. The fact that the items and the stories kept the family going through hard times, is really moving.
Here is the 1901 census with an elderly Jessie Sutherland in Howth:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000022918/
Sutherland Jessie Aged, 84 Female Boarder with Taylor family, Presbyterian Religion, Born in Scotland Can Read - Widow
Again a bit of a wildcard, but maybe the name Taylor might mean something to the Aunts?. The other thing is that most of the titled had portraits painted - perhaps lady Ann herself may give us a clue when we see it.
PM
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The only thing about that census is that she can read but not write, would she be boarding with a gardener's servant?
It's been pretty much established that "Lady Ann of Clontarf" didn't exist.. so who are we looking for? It is certainly clouding the waters as there is a mix of Fact and "Fiction".
To find an explanation for Joe's elderly relatives facts are needed, probably from Scotland. Apart from a possible note in the minutes there really isn't anything else in Clontarf records.
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Folks, could you please check me out on my math/generation figuring?
On my very first post, I stated:
“Lady Ann was Jesse Sutherland's great grandmother. Lady Ann would have been born between 1752 and 1783.”
I also stated that my great grandmother, Jessie Koplik ne Curtis, said that Lady Anne was her 3rd great grandmother.
In the last half hour I've had a few moments of doubt where I broke out in a sweat. Before I or you all do anything else, I'll post my figuring here. Please, check me out on this. I used all first born daughters to look at actual years between known generations, (averaging 25 years) and then used an average of 20 years for the unknown generations.
My cousin's daughter born 32 years after her mom 1985
My cousin born 31 yrs after Aunt Pat 1953
My aunt Pat (ne Carlino) born 20 yrs after her mom 1921
Alice Carlino (ne Koplik) born 24 yrs after her mom 1901
Jessie Koplik (ne Curtis) born 17 yrs after her mom 1875 (Lady Anne was her 3rd great grandmother)
Alice Curtis/Cuter (ne. Burke) born 30 yrs after her mom 1858
Jesse Burke (ne Sutherland) born 1828
mom of above: born (guess) 1808 (b/w 1803 & 1813) 10 yr slop (JK's GG #1)
mom of above: born (guess) 1788 (b/w 1778 & 1798) 20 yr slop (JK's GG #2)
Lady Anne: born (guess) 1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783) 31 yr slop (JK's GG #3)
Well I can't get this to format as a table, but I think it's readable anyway. Is my figuring correct?
Joe
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Hi Joe,
As guesstimates go, no problem there. Is there anything in US records to confirm Jessie was born in 1828, or does this come from the Clontarf marriage record?
Hallmark, re the Scottish records, all Joe has to go on is her name, a putative father, John, army officer, from the Clontarf records. Going by the 1841 census, there are dozens of candidates for a Baptism record, unless Joe finds that only one or two have army officer fathers. He may be lucky as I couldn't find any at all in the 1841 census, - several army pensioners, and the one sargeant at arms. Might be worth spending the few bob to look, Joe.
The identification of the first sillouette as c.1830, origin British Isles - I did email it to someone expert in these things -means it cannot be of anyone born 1828. I think it would be well worth looking at the other items for dates especially the portrait and the ring, for further clues.
Hallmark,My view on Lady Ann is slightly different from yours, in that there was one individual who would formally be called Lady Clontarf in the historic record - the wife of Rawson, Viscount Clontarf.
Debrett,the Bible of UK Titles says:
This the fourth grade in the peerage. A viscount is, in conversation, referred to as Lord (Chelmsford) rather than the Viscount Chelmsford
The wife of a viscount is a viscountess and is known as Lady (Chelmsford). Use of the title viscountess in speech is socially incorrect unless it needs to be specifically mentioned, for example in a list of patrons.
http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/titles/viscount-and-viscountess.aspx
I am not saying this Lady Clontarf is the one Joe is looking for, merely that there is no myth - there was a historical lady Clontarf, just earlier than Joe's guesstimates, and in my view, oral history can often have a grain of truth and a distortion of time combined. It is 160 years since that wedding in Clontarf. Joe's family history is that the portrait is of Lady Anne, and a date on it would be very helpful in evaluating this hypothesis. Hairstyle, dress, pose, ornamentation etc, might give clues.
However it might be worth Joe starting another thread on Scotland General giving the Clontarf marriage details and seeing if anyone can help him find that JS?
Joe, I know this is very frustrating, it seems to me that no Lady Clontarf is on offer for the dates your guesstimates give, allthough there are several relatives of the only person who would have been called Lady Clontarf, who are wives or daughters of Earls, with the name Ann or Anne in the area for the period you estimate.
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I feel as I have been AWOL from this post for a little while (been away for nearly 3 weeks, back now to the dark winter :'()
Just picking up on a couple of your points PM:
The estimated birth year of c.1828 I think comes from the only census entry that we have for Jessie, the 1880 US census.
Regarding Scottish records pre the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855. Before this date, the main source of accessible on line records are from the Old Parish Registers for the established Church of Scotland, i.e. presbyterian. It is these entries, in the main, that show on both the official pay to view site of Scotlands People and indexed entries on IGI. Last year, Scotlands People added what records are available regarding Roman Catholic births/christenings on to their website.
I am sure, no different to elsewhere, OPR entries vary enormously by parish throughout Scotland, some more informative than others. In the main though, these entries are minimal in terms of the info they contain (with the very occassional parish entry that does include a little bit more info). There are also big gaps in the registers, many of which have been lost or destroyed over the years.
Likely may not apply in the case of the Sutherland family if the family were wealthy, but poorer families often chose not to register/ christen their children as it cost money to do so.
I am sounding negative but trying to be realistic on what can be some of the issues when researching in this pre official registration era in Scotland.
From what I have seen on this post and also what is happening on the US post (been catching up me this morning ::)), we have still not been able to find James and Jessie with children in the US censuses for 1860/70 which is a pity for all sorts of reasons. We are for sure missing some children's birth/name details and also, to date, only have one census (1880) to be able to gauge possible ages/birth years for James and Jessie - never good to rely on just one is it :-\ I think Joe you have found mention of James in the local directories certainly though the 1870s to the early 1890s - it's the years before where there is a big black hole.
I think from the US post that you have found Joe possible death dates/ interments for James and Jessie. Don't know whether you have been able to make any enquires as to whether any documents or records still exist for these deaths, such as age at death for example:
Burk, James F, interred September 8, 1894
Burk, Jessie, interred April 2, 1889
Monica (who spent a big chunk of her morning going through again the 1860/70 censuses :D)
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Hi Joe and Monica,
Looked at the other thread. I know what you mean about the Scottish records - I really have fingers crossed on this one for Joe and will continue digging. PM
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Don't have a problem with that but to get from A to Z you have to go A, B, C, D etc. OR go from Z to A...
If there was a Lady Ann and even earlier than Joe thinks then there are a few generations between where we are and where Ann was.
re the Scottish records, all Joe has to go on is her name, a putative father, John, army officer, from the Clontarf records. Going by the 1841 census, there are dozens of candidates for a Baptism record, unless Joe finds that only one or two have army officer fathers.
Well it's as much as many of us get, he's extremely lucky even to get the marriage cert on line!
He has (I think) her birth year, two Christian names for her, father's name.. how many Jessie Sophia Sutherlands were born in Scotland in 1828 with a father John?
To make progress he can only deal with known facts, which are probably not in Ireland at this stage. He may well get back to a Lady Ann in Clontarf but with facts.
Even knowing if this Ann is on the maternal or paternal line would cut the problem in half!
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Whooowie... Lots to reply to. Here I will just address James and Jessie in Cincinnati.
But first, Happy New Year everyone. Thanks again for combining forces to help me with this quest. You are all very generous and sweet.
Secondly, a few days ago I fired off a request for 10 records to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. Typically they respond in 30 to 60 days. Agonizing, but at the end of that two month eternity, hopefully we may uncover birth records between 1850 and 1855, plus marriage and death records.
Monica, you are correct: the only birthdate source for Jessie Burke ne Sutherland is the 1880 cesus (June 14th) saying she is 52 years old. And I agree, the lack of Jessie and James Burke in the 1860 and 1870 Census is very frustrating. However, take heart in this: I found an elusive "Curtis" (my great grandma Jessie's maiden name) in the US Census by simply (hah!) combing through the Census by "Wards". I knew the ward he lived in (Cincy directory) but could not find him on Ancestry.c. So I combed the ward page by page and found him. The problem? His name was recorded by the Census enumerator as "Cartes", which I suppose can be phonetically justified as "Curtis". So, out of two Census years (1860 and 1870), who knows how "Burke" may have been misunderstood by an enumerator, and/or mis-transcribed by Anc---.com.
I am an EXTREME fan of Arthur Conan Doyle, who's advice, as a good Scotsman, seems appropriate here. Speaking through a certain detective character that some of you may have heard of, he implores us:
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
Now, with that fresh in mind, it is a fact that Mary Helen Burke was born to James F. Burke and Jessie Burke ne Sutherland in 1855 in Cincinnati, Ohio. Another child John James was born in Cincy in 1861. AND, in the 1880 Census James and Jessie are both shown living in Cincinnati. Despite this body of hard evidence of James F. living in Cincinnati, there is no actual listing for "James F. Burke" in the Cincy directory for his first 25 years in the US: between 1850 and 1875, and no presence in the 1860 and 1870 Census's! Those are the facts.
There are other possible indications of this guy (so many "Jas.'s) scattered in the Cincy Directory, as early as 1851, which lists a "J. F. Burke, reporter", and up through 1876. From that point on to 1894, listings for "James F. Burke" are fairly clear and consistent.
My point? We can't find him anywhere else in the US except in Cincinnati. I'm going with a probability: that this guy stayed in Cincinnati throughout his life in the US.
By the way, I made a discovery the other day regarding James's occupation as "collector". The position wasn't with a railroad, but with a Lighting Rod manufacturer, as early as 1879. He stuck with that line of work until the year he (probably) died: 1894. Not much use, but there it is.
Now on to other things in another post.
Joe
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PM, Hallmark, and Monica:
These last few posts of yours are great! You all seem to be distilling past posts, adding some recent perspective, and giving the conversation clarity. Cool, very cool. I mean warm, we're getting warm!
PM: regarding the following:
Going by the 1841 census, there are dozens of candidates for a Baptism record, unless Joe finds that only one or two have army officer fathers. He may be lucky as I couldn't find any at all in the 1841 census, - several army pensioners, and the one sargeant at arms. Might be worth spending the few bob to look, Joe.
The identification of the first silhouette as c.1830, origin British Isles - I did email it to someone expert in these things -means it cannot be of anyone born 1828. I think it would be well worth looking at the other items for dates especially the portrait and the ring, for further clues.
Hey, I've had credits with Scotland's for months! I'm happy to spend the dough! I just need to know what to ask!
And, regarding your notes on the silhouettes. VERY interesting regarding the dates. But please recall this: I've seen all three (a couple of years ago). My Aunt, my cousins, and I all agree that while one of them might be Lady Anne, each of the silhouettes are of three unique people. Oh, I wish my Aunt would get the two remaining and the portrait photographed!
And Hallmark:
"Well it's as much as many of us get, he's extremely lucky even to get the marriage cert on line!"
You said it. Yes, oh yes I am so blessed, so double blessed! LOTS of great information that YOU folks have dug up! And, it can't hurt to amp up my appreciation.
Gotta Go!
Oh, one more point that I believe Sherlock Holmes would definitely include in a line of investigation:
Why would three beautiful silhouettes be concealed in a frame between a portrait and the portrait's backing?
Joe
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Regarding posting on the Scotland section: should I start a brand new thread with hopes that it will attract new information?
Would the following be appropriate:
Looking for information regarding an ancestor John Sutherland, father to my ancestor Jessie Sutherland. She was born 1828 Scotland. John is noted as "Captain in the Army" on the record of Jessie's 1850 marriage in Clontarf, Ireland. Would love to find the record of Jessie's baptism, in hopes of finding her mother's maiden name, and/or the record of the marriage of John Sutherland to Jessie's mother.
Joe
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Even to ask on Scotland board you can only ask about what you know, based on the marriage cert and that you get a birth year of 1828 based on US census.
You are looking for birth of a Jessie Sophie Sutherland in 1828 with father John.
He may not even have been in army in 1828, we don't know. Even your guesstimate is only a guess and you are basing it on the first child being born was a daughter in each generation for inheriting..
What if Jessie's mother was 3rd child with her mother in turn being a 3rd child and her mother again being the 3rd child..??
You can only guesstimate Jessie's parents marriage as you don't know if she had older brothers.
Even knowing if this Ann is on Jessie's maternal or paternal line would cut the problem in half! Do you know??
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I can cleanly trace my mother's maternal ancestors to Jesse Sutherland, b. 1828 in Scotland (where there is a Glen Tarff and Glentarf). And since the relics are handed down via 1st born girls, it seems that I should be focusing on Scotland for Lady Ann.
But today a very nice person on Rootschat discovered that Jesse S. Sutherland of Scotland married James F. Burke in 1850 in Clontarf, Dublin, Ireland (for years I've known that James F. was born in Dublin 1830). So faced with these intersections of data, now I must focus on Clontarf in Ireland, with the possibility that James F. Burke had no female siblings or his female siblings had no daughters, so he got the relics from his mother and then gave them to his first born daughter.
It wouldn't be via Burke as Jessie's mother wasn't a Burke!
It would be via Jessie's mother, so you have to find Jessie's mother not Jessie's husband!
John Sutherland married Miss X, (who had an inherited ring).... Miss X's mother was Miss Y (who had an inherited ring from her mother) whose mother was Miss Ann Z (Lady) of Clontarf....
You need to find X to find Y to find Z...
Jesse Burke (ne Sutherland) born 1828
mom of above: Miss X born (guess) 1808 (b/w 1803 & 1813) 10 yr slop (JK's GG #1)
mom of above: Miss Y born (guess) 1788 (b/w 1778 & 1798) 20 yr slop (JK's GG #2)
Lady Anne: Miss Ann Z born (guess) 1768 (b/w 1752 & 1783) 31 yr slop (JK's GG #3)
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....
It wouldn't be via Burke as Jessie's mother wasn't a Burke!
It would be via Jessie's mother, so you have to find Jessie's mother not Jessie's husband!
John Sutherland married Miss X, (who had an inherited ring).... Miss X's mother was Miss Y (who had an inherited ring from her mother) whose mother was Miss Ann Z (Lady) of Clontarf....
.....
that's the stage where I loose the trail of evidence in this. We know Jessie was born in Scotland, so where does Clontarf come in to the story other than with her marriage ?
I think maybe the timelines and locations in the story have become crossed....
Shane
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Hallmark:
Perhaps you didn't see my earlier post regarding Burke, not Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection. Yes, I originally took as Bible the notion of an unbroken chain of first born females handing down the artifacts from Lady Anne. But with the discovery of the Clontarf marriage certificate, I have discounted that notion, and with it, Jessie Sutherland decending from Lady Anne.
The original story from my Aunt was that Lady Anne was of a castle in a place that sounded like "Glentarf", She wasn't sure of the pronunciation of the town, but she was sure that the country was Ireland.
In 2003 I found "Clontarf" in Ireland, but I could find no online info.
But two years ago I discovered two variants of Glen Tarf, Scotland, and then I found that Jessie Sutherland was Scots. I "put one and one together" and focused on Jessie Sutherland being the conduit to Lady Anne. But I could find nothing.
Then when the RC gang found the Marriage cert. for Jessie Sutherland and James Burke in "Clontarf" and "Ireland", I could no longer give credence to Jessie Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection. With this information, I'm putting "two plus two together" (Clontarf + Ireland plus Sutherland + Burke). The case for Ireland conforms much closer to the evidence and the oral history, so it simply outweighs the evidence for Scotland. So, James Burke, not his wife Jessie Sutherland, must be the connection.
So with that, I have to discard the notion of the unbroken line of first-born females handing down the artifacts. True, my Aunt says that the artifacts have been handed down through 1st born daughters, but what if a daughter wasn't born to Lady Anne, or if her daughter died before having her own daughter? It could have been broken at any time. Plus, we don't know who may have started that tradition. Perhaps it was Lady Anne's niece, nephew, son, grand daughter, grandson, daughter-in-law...
Thanks, I gotta hit the hay. it's 2am!
Joe
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I did just do a quick search on Scotland's for John and Jessie Sutherland in the 1841 Census. The best match was a 55 yo male John, Messenger at Arms, with a 51yo Margt. and a 13 yo Jessie. John's profession and age don't seem to fit someone who would be listed as "Captain of the Army" nine years later in Jessie's marriage certificate.
Good Night!
Joe
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Hallmark:
Perhaps you didn't see my earlier post regarding Burke, not Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection. Yes, I originally took as Bible the notion of an unbroken chain of first born females handing down the artifacts from Lady Anne. But with the discovery of the Clontarf marriage certificate, I have discounted that notion, and with it, Jessie Sutherland decending from Lady Anne.
The original story from my Aunt was that Lady Anne was of a castle in a place that sounded like "Glentarf", She wasn't sure of the pronunciation of the town, but she was sure that the country was Ireland.
In 2003 I found "Clontarf" in Ireland, but I could find no online info.
But two years ago I discovered two variants of Glen Tarf, Scotland, and then I found that Jessie Sutherland was Scots. I "put one and one together" and focused on Jessie Sutherland being the conduit to Lady Anne. But I could find nothing.
Then when the RC gang found the Marriage cert. for Jessie Sutherland and James Burke in "Clontarf" and "Ireland", I could no longer give credence to Jessie Sutherland being the Lady Anne connection. With this information, I'm putting "two plus two together" (Clontarf + Ireland plus Sutherland + Burke). The case for Ireland conforms much closer to the evidence and the oral history, so it simply outweighs the evidence for Scotland. So, James Burke, not his wife Jessie Sutherland, must be the connection.
So with that, I have to discard the notion of the unbroken line of first-born females handing down the artifacts. True, my Aunt says that the artifacts have been handed down through 1st born daughters, but what if a daughter wasn't born to Lady Anne, or if her daughter died before having her own daughter? It could have been broken at any time. Plus, we don't know who may have started that tradition. Perhaps it was Lady Anne's niece, nephew, son, grand daughter, grandson, daughter-in-law...
Thanks, I gotta hit the hay. it's 2am!
Joe
No, didn't see that but according to your guesstimate post above it still looks like it's through Jessie's mother>her Mother>her mother....
Because she married in Clontarf and was from Scotland there may well have been a family connection to Clontarf, her guardians may very well have been relatives and also from Ann of Clontarf! As there are normally a witness from each side then Ross could quite easily be the relatives...
The best match was a 55 yo male John, Messenger at Arms, with a 51yo Margt. and a 13 yo Jessie.
For example; 55 yo male John, Messenger at Arms, with a 51yo Margt Ross (??) and a 13 yo Jessie. I don't think 9 years to become a captain all that unbelievable!
Jessie was over 21, under guardianship, from Scotland.. so why not have guardians in Scotland or England?? So, why Clontarf?
You originally took as Bible the notion of an unbroken chain of first born females handing down the artefacts from Lady Anne. But with the discovery of the Clontarf marriage certificate, you have now discounted that notion and with it Jessie Sutherland descending from Lady Anne.... Why??
The fact that she is in Clontarf supports the family beliefs, not weaken them!
Of all the places she could have gone why go to Clontarf?
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Hi JOE, 1841:
Johen Sutherland, age 55 Born 1788, Wife Margaret aged 51, born
1786, Dau Jessie Sutherland aged 13, Son Watter( their spelling) Mclean Sutherland
They are living in Forfar in the County of Angus, at Sprout Street.
His occupation is Messenger at Arms. can't pick him up in 1851.
(A messenger-at-arms is an officer of the Scottish Court of Session, responsible for serving documents and enforcing court orders throughout Scotland. Messengers-at-arms must have a commission as a sheriff officer. They don't exist in Ireland, but could a contarf Vicar turn that into Army Captain? They were known as "Officers of the King".)
Next closest is:John Sutherland, age 53 b. 1798
Wife Ann Sutherland
All born Halkirk, Caithness Harpsdale. Occupation given as farmer 7 Acres
including Dau Jessie Sutherland 23, plus 6 siblings. She is a bit old, but this is the 1841 census. There is more detail if Joe wants it, but nothing to really make a connection.
However, there are lots of Jessie Sutherlands of the right age in schools, in households where there is no father on the night of the census, in households with other people etc.
No Jessie Sophia anywhere. Tried all the variants Lots of Janets with father John. mostly crofters and ag labourers, so hard to imagine an Army Captain...unless... he got tided up for the register, as happens!
Joe - suggest you get the record of this Jessie from Scotlands people.
No conclusive evidence as to Lady Ann being on male or female line yet.
Any number of reasons why silouettes packed in portrait on a long voyage to America or earlier. They are fragile items.
Interesting about James occupation, and a good lesson for us all about assumptions!
Bring on the portrait!
PM
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I have looked already at this family in Forfar, with father John, messenger at arms. The family show as born outside of the county of Angus (Forfar) on their 1841 census entry.
I think wife may be Margaret Stewart. These are the children's births/christenings showing on IGI and SP:
John 1812 in Alyth Perth
Alexander 1813 in Alyth Perth
William 1815 in Alyth Perth - died that year
Ann 1816 in Alyth Perth (likely died young)
Ann 1819 in Forfar Angus
Elizabeth 1820 in Forfar Angus
Margaret 1823 in Forfar Angus
Jessie 1828 and Walter 1830 don't show on the Old Parish Register index on either SP or IGI. Nor is there a marriage showing between 1800-1815 for a couple with these names.
Possible entries in 1851 that I also found:
Walter Sutherland, 21, shoemaker, b. Forfar lodging with a Mollison family in Inverkeilor, Angus, and
Jessie Sutherland, 22, domestic servant b. Forfar working at the Matthew household in Perth, Perthshire
There is no mention in the OPRs births/christenings for a Jessie Sophia Sutherland. There is only one entry for a Sophia (no first name), daughter of John and mother Sophia in the right year range. The family were from Aberdeenshire, and father an agricultural labourer.
I have also looked at possible entries for Janet/Jean/Jane which are all variants with Jessie (see www.whatsinaname.net/) and nothing really jumping out unfortunately.
I am really stuck on what to advice now on the Scottish side without some new info :-\
Monica
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Hallmark et all:
THe next time I attempt to wrap my 2 a.m. mind around a bunch of ancestral gymnastics spurred by perusal of numerous emails that would challenge a well caffinated brain at high noon, please just ignore it.
My apologies. I should have explained that by posting the "table" of women born between my "niece" (actually my cousin's daughter) and Lady Anne, I was only using the women (sorry!) as a way of figuring out the number of generations, the number of Great Grandmothers between Jessie Koplik ne Curtis and Lady Anne, and the years in which Lady Anne may have been born.
So, with that said, and in consideration of your last email:
The first picture is of my brain.
The second is of my brain on RootsChat.
Any questions?
Joe
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Joe - suggest you get the record of this Jessie from Scotlands people.
PM:
I am not clear on exactly which record you are referring to. And I don't understand the significance of "getting the record". When I looked up the info on Scotland's, I downloaded the page from the Cesus. Is that what you mean?
Joe
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hi Joe,
Monica went and got the record, see her last post here. No joy there. So we are back to the portrait.
PM
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Problem is there is no record for a birth for this Jessie to this couple, John and Margaret that we have in Forfar, that I could find on Scotlands People - I've listed the children that show on SP and IGI and they seem to stop at 1823. Jessie and Walter's entries are not showing that I can find.
Worries me for this family group that we have a potential 22 yr old Jessie Sutherland b. Forfar showing in the 1851 census in Scotland....
Monica
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Yes, Monica! This raises the other possibility is that the John, being an army officer, was not Scottish at all, but just happened to be stationed or visiting Scotland with his wife when Jessie was born. and stationed in Dublin when she married the Irishman. That would mean a search in the public record office in Kew. And again, John Sutherland is a fairly common name.....but plenty of them in Ireland and England Remember I found a Sutherland and a Burke family on the same street in Dublin in the right period? PM
Going on that theory:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/bc9a490525996
Area - DUBLIN (COI) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. PAUL
Baptism of JOHN SUTHERLAND of N/R on 19 June 1825 Parents John and Margaret. can't remember where St. Pauls parish is.
There is a John married to a Mary as well, who have several children, but John Married to Margaret is a better fit.
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Thanks for pics Joe, glad to see you are still healthy!! ;D ;D
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St. Paul's CofI was (is?) on north King Street, just off Blackhall Place.
Shane
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PM and Monica:
Yes, Monica! This raises the other possibility is that the John, being an army officer, was not Scottish at all,
I'm not exactly sure which John PM is referring to here. Man am I confused. But, I just want to repeat: Jessie Burke ne Sutherland reports in the 1880 Census that her mother and father were both born in Scotland. James says his parents were both born in Ireland.
Joe
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That would be John Sunderland, army officer, father of Jessie
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Joe, I did not know that Jessie gave her father's birthplace as Scotland. What
I am suggesting is that as an Army officer, he could have been posted to Dublin or elsewhere, and Jessie could have been with him, which would explain a lack of Census records in the UK.
I am looking at misc. records for any suitable Capt. John Sutherlands of the time - will let you know how I get on. PM
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Hello PM, Shane, Hallmark, Monica, etc.:
It has been a long, long time since I was last on Rootschat. Almost a year. Hope you are all well and solving lots of mysteries.
Well, great news: My cousin visited our aunt a few months back, and she finally sent me photos of the Lady Anne portrait and the remaining 2 (of 3) silhouettes that had long ago been contained in the frame. The portrait and the silhouettes are beautiful, and the silhouettes are incredibly delicate. Incredible to believe that they survive.
The silhouette pair and the painting were framed by my aunt. Remember that when my grandmother had the painting reframed in 1946 or so, the three silhouettes fell out from the backing. The single silhouette is the one I posted last year. It seems so completely different in style and detail than the other two.
So, if there is anything that can be told by the portrait or the silhouettes, please let me know
Thanks,
Joe O.
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Hello again:
I'd like to clarify what sort of advice I'd like to get regarding these images.
Basically, I'm wondering if there's anyone on the forum who might have some expertise regarding portraits of "landed gentry" from the era of Lady Anne. For instance, I would ask such an expert if it seems possible that this portrait looks as if it was made between 1782 and 1753? Can it be discerned to be Iris or Scottish? Can anything be told from the dress, hair, background, etc.
Is there anyone who could look at these silhouettes and tell anything from them?
If there's no on on the forum with such skills, could anyone recommend someone outside of the forum I could approach?
Thanks,
Joe
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Hi Joe
Hope you are well :)
Great to see the images now for the painting and silhouettes.
Might be worth reposting the images with the questions you are asking on this board here on RC: Photograph Restoration & Dating www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,298.0.html
Monica
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Hi Joe, lovely to see the images - agree with Monica you should move to the other board. Might be an idea to add the sizes, if you have them.
PM :)
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Hello all:
I am putting in time and effort now to try and make some progress. My mom's eldest sister, the one who inherited Lady Anne's artifacts and story from her mom and grandmother, is ill and will not likely last the year. I'd really like to tell her who Lady Anne actually was and how we are connected to her.
So I'm going to post on the US section a request to help find the parents (well, the mothers are what I need) of James F. Burke and his wife Jesse ne Sutherland, who died in Cincinnati in the late 1800's. Hopefully someone can find a death certificate or similar document where that information is included.
Regards,
Joe O
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Good to have you back on RC, Joe :)
Wouldn't it be exciting if new info was to be found! If the US boards find something new, please report back here ;)
Monica
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Monica:
Will certainly let you know.
Thanks!
Joe
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Despite the fact that her children appeared to have died relatively young without issue,I can't find a better candidate than Anne(sometimes Lady),2nd Countess of Charlemont,of Marino House Clontarf,born 1780.
Regards
Roger
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Here is a possible,tentative and tortuous connection between a Jane Rose and the Countess(es) of Charlemont.
It starts with Thomas Hickman of Clare(1655-1718)-see:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/9MMS-S2C
By his first marriage he had a daughter Harriet Henrietta who married a Thomas Hickman(!).Their daughter Mary married James Caulfeild and became 1st Countess of Charlemont.Their son Francis married Anne Bermingham,my putative candidate.
By his second marriage he had a daughter Jane who married George Rose of Cork.There may be a gap of a generation(or two) to be filled in.but there is a Jane Rose of Rathkeale,born 1791 to George and Jane and I think this article supports this being a branch of the same family:-
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2240
Could this Jane(an approx.contemporary of Anne Bermingham) have been the witness(and possibly guardian?).Could,also,the artefacts have come to the family via her(as Anne Bermingham had no living issue) and the tradition started then?
Regards
Roger
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Hello Roger:
Thank you for all the very evident focus you are devoting to this topic.
Yes, Anne Bermingham, wife of Francis Caulfield, has the right age, title, location. Here I'll paste the bare bones of our family lore of Lady Anne:
They recall Jessie saying that Lady Anne was Scotch-Irish, and that she was from the castle pronounced “Glen Tarff”, Ireland. Aunt Pat says that although Anne is referred to as “Lady”, such an appellation is incorrect, because only the wife of a lord is called such, and Lady Anne’s husband was not a lord, but a duke, the Duke of Glen Tarff, and he was duke of a castle: Glen Tarff Castle..
Here is a link to an interesting biography of Anne Bermingham on Google books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UL8k71aaYtcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Queens+of+Beauty+and+Their+Romances&hl=en&sa=X&ei=23wDU_O7NtSA2QXtzYDQDQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ross%20hill&f=false
And as to a possible association that does not involve bloodlines: as the Vernon's of Clontarf Castle and Anne Bermingham fail to yield descendant's that connect to James Francis Burke, it does become likely that JF Burke's connection to a Lady Anne may not be by blood. What the heck, they probably all saw eachother every Sunday at St. John the Baptist church.
I hate to throw this at you, but there is a bit of confusion regarding the witness Jane. On the church record it sort of looks like "Rose", and is transcribed as such on all searches. But I believe that is incorrect, because the civil record clearly shows "Ross" (see attached image).
Here is link to a Nov. 1850 Dublin wedding record of a Jane Ross.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8591fa0544790
I so, so wish that I could find the name of JF Burke's mother. Why would JF and his new wife Jessie include their father's names but not their mother's names on their wedding record? How very rude!
I guess I'll just have to pray that someday I find a baptism record in Dublin for JF Burke. Until I can work backwards from him, I doubt there is any chance for clarity of who Lady Anne was and whether or not there is a blood connection.
Okay, I've got to get out of ancestry land and into all the tasks that need doing in the real world. Thanks again Roger for your incredible help.
Joe
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Roger:
Having slept on your proposal, and losing my resistance to a non-blood connection, Anne Caulfield ne. Bermingham seems the best candidate for Lady Anne. I can't at this moment give her enough certainty to announce this to my relatives, but I really think your idea is quite brilliant.
I want to absorb everything that you laid out regarding Jane Rose, so I'll go over that. I'm also wondering, how many young ladies named Anne deserving to be called "Lady" lived in Clontarf near the castle back in the late 1700's? Could this be determined in Burke's Peerage? What was the population of Clontarf back then? The simple math of that approach is appealing to me.
In the meantime, any further thoughts?
Sincerely,
Joe
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I've done the reverse-the name seems to be clearly Ross(not Boss?),unless this is a local variant spelling of Rose.I suppose if you accept a non blood line connection it doesn't matter,but the evidence is too weak to make any form of conclusion or announcement in my mind.It's the old maxim-"the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."There is also the possibility of a family connection with Ross(?) and/or a Ross,rather than Rose, connection with "Lady Ann".
On the question of pure identity,rather than connection,is there no evidence of an artist's name on any of the artefacts?A known association of an artist would provide supporting evidence.I don't suppose the painting could be de-framed to look?
I also wondered about timing of receipt of the artefacts.Do you believe they came into the family at the time of the marriage of James and Jessie?If so,they would not have been a legacy as the 2nd Countess lived beyond their departure for the USA(assuming this was in the 1850s-I can only find a transcription of the Falcon manifest not a copy of the original).
I will keep on looking for alternative explanatiions.
Regards
Roger
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Not much help,but here is a copy of the original manifest.It looks like there is no meaning to the occupation as the description has been applied once to the whole page.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-27253-11?cc=1908535&wc=M9SD-B85:n90033921
Whereas previously I had associated Jane Rose with Ireland,perhaps as it is Ross,she will be associated with Scotland,as per the marriage record.Perhaps,even,she is a guardian(could John Sutherland be dead?)
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
First of all, thank you VERY MUCH for rooting out the original ship's manifest from the FALCON. Wow!!! So cool to have that document! Once again, RootsChat rocks!
I'm very curious about some of the points you bring up:
Are you saying that Jane Ross is shown as from Scotland on the marriage record? I've looked at the marriage record for Burke Sutherland and Jane Ross's marriage, but I don't see that association.
And yes, I guess it is entirely possible that Jane Ross is Jessie Sutherland's guardian, and that Jessie's father is dead. Tragic for Jessie but that would help to narrow down all the "John Sutherlands b. Scotland circa 1800" I've been looking for.
Boy I wish I could find a military record for Captain in the Army John Sutherland. I've looked but so far cannot find such a thing.
My cousin has looked at only the front of the portrait: no signature. Her sister now has the portrait and is in DC, and I will press her to bring it in to an expert to have it examined.
Your observation that James and Jessie left Ireland in 1850 while Lady Anne Caulfield was still alive, at 70 years old, is very interesting. In that scenario, I think it very likely that there was a very direct connection, friendship or bloodwise, between the Lady and James and Jessie. It's April, J&J are young, getting married, and everyone knows they are leaving for the states. "Oh, going to America? Well here, I'm an old lady: I don't need this dress anymore and your lovely wife looks great in it." Or, maybe the Lady had made a gift to the bride before her marriage with a wedding dress. Who knows? "And take this portrait and this ring. I've got others and you've always liked them."
James and Jessie are shown on the manifest carrying two "boxes"; steamer trunks I assume. It seems probable that Lady Anne's articles were in Jessie's trunk: a dress, portrait, and siloughettes at least (Jessie was probably wearing the ring). Could be that Jessie's trunk was the one my great grandmother Jessie opened to show Lady Anne's dress to my aunt back in the 1930's. (My aunt remembers the trunk as a typical steamer style: rounded lid, tray on top). But when Jessie lifted the top tray out of the trunk, a cloud of dust filled the air as the dress had disintegrated.
Speculation, perhaps, but not without merit. I love how things are coming into focus.
Much appreciation,
Joe
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I so, so wish that I could find the name of JF Burke's mother. Why would JF and his new wife Jessie include their father's names but not their mother's names on their wedding record? How very rude!
Unfortunately marriage entries for this period did only include father's name. Even after the start of official registration in Ireland and also England & Wales, this practice continued. Not so in Scotland where mother and father's full names, including mother's maiden name, were included post 1855.
Great info, Roger! Joe, you are sounding re-energised after your short absence ;)
Just a thought. This thread is so long now, hard for new people to catch up with everything unless they read from the beginning. Might be worth pulling together a key point summary of findings, 10-15 bullets points perhaps, of where everything is at which can be added to or modified depending what comes up next.
Monica
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No,I'm not saying that Jane is shown as from Scotland,I have inferred it as she is the witness associated with Jessie who is said to be from Scotland.Ross is hardly a rare name in Scotland.
I.too,have searched extensively for a military record but nothing with a strong claim.I did wonder about George Sutherland Esq given as father of Augusta Jessie Sutherland at Clontarf in 1861.His pedigree is under "Genealogies" on FamilySearch(his wife was nee Sheppard).He comes from the Sutherlands of Forse,connected to the Sutherland Fencibles/93rd Foot?.He did have a brother called John who died in 1846 unmarried.I did wonder whether he could still be the father,though I haven't been able to establish him as a captain either!
There are lots of references to "Captain John Sutherland" on "googling",but finding an association is another matter.
Similar frustration applies to the Burke family.Given the grave details he should have been born late July 1829.I have found a "Latinised"RC record for Jacobum,son of Joannis and Margaritam in Roscommon Sept 1829(6weeks from birth to baptism?).I looked at this because there is a burial record for Margaret Burke at Clontarf in 1856,but she does seem a little(but not impossibly) old.
Again,not enough evidence to get excited.
Regards
Roger
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Monica:
Point well taken. I've recently been wondering if I need to collapse all the threads I've created for Lady Anne into one. That makes my head hurt, but you are right, I need to condense years of information into something more succinct.
Roger:
I understand now about Jane Ross and connection to Scotland.
Blessed with so many ancestors with very common names, yes, very frustrating trying to locate our targets!.
And regarding your saying that "Similar frustration applies to the Burke family. Given the grave details he should have been born late July 1829": do you have burial information on James Burke, Jessie's husband?
Joe
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Joe, just adding link to new US post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=678048.0. See you have the death dates now for James and Jessie (don't think we had them before on the earlier posts). I would imagine nothing of note on their death registrations and burial details etc. or you would have mentioned. Any ages at death to confirm what we have seen so far?
Monica
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Joe appears to be off line at the moment,so I think these are the records:-
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=77408029
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=burke&GSfn=jess&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=37&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=73821380&df=all&
Regards
Roger
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Thank you Roger. My, very precise dates there coming through for births. We didn't have this before. Quite something to see their gravestones after all this time...
Monica
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The thing I did notice is that the cemetery is Wesleyan.I don't know what,if any, implications this may have for finding non-conformist records in Scotland?
I'm more used to looking in Wales.
Regards
Roger
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I have in previous times looked through the online resource of the pay to view site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk looking at the Old Parish Register entries which is all that is available at this time (official registration in Scotland began in 1855). The OPR entries are predominantly for the established Church of Scotland (ie. Presbyterian). Scotlands People databases also include available Roman Catholic Registers. To search further would require local searches in Edinburgh at the NRS to check other religious denomination registers.
The indexes of Family Search which are pretty good for Scotland haven't thrown anything new up either, apart from the marriage for Jessie in 1850.
Monica
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Roger!!!!!!!
Wow!! Another Wow!! That Find-A-Grave information is completely new to me! It shows exactly how old James Francis Burke was at his death: 65y 1m 17d, which of course reveals his birthdate: 20 July, 1829! Did I get the math right? (death date 6 Sept., 1894) (interesting that he has always reported 1830 as his birth year).
And there's a photo of Jessie's gravestone with inscription with birthdate: Sept. 3, 1828! (though the transcription shows 1829, which is understandable when viewing the photo and by all accounts is incorrect). Unbelievably awesome!
:-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
I should call it a day, with this great stuff, but of course this is family research, to which heroin is a gateway drug.
My Family Search search in the 1841 census for Jessie Sutherland b. Scotland 1828 father John shows up with only two possibilities:
one in Loth parish, Sutherland county, and one in Forfashire (Angus).
Why don't the parent's show in those listings? And when I search for John Sutherland in Loth parish, I get 41 hits! Really? 41 John Sutherlands living in Loth Parish in 1841??
But they don't list children. Isn't there a way to look at the entire family for a particular census listing?
I gotta lay off for awhile and get back to my real life.
Thanks again Roger. So great!
Joe
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AS someone has said before,there is also the possibility of a record under the name of Janet.There are quite a few Scottish records that have Janet(Jessie),or the reverse as the first name.
I don't know why but I have a hunch for Helen as part of Jessie's mother's name.I think you said her first child was Mary Helen?Pure speculation,but names often run in families,don't they?
Regards
Roger
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Yes, Mary Helen b. 1855 d. 1879
then Alice b. 1858 d. ?
then John James b. 1861
Joe
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I've just found an interesting newspaper snippet which I will try to follow up tomorrow that references(to paraphrase)...."Captain Sutherland,brother of George Sutherland Esq.of Forse,who holds a commission in the Scots Greys.."
It does not specify John,of course.The description of George is exactly that of the 1861 Clontarf record.The article is dated June 1855 and must reference the Crimean War.
Until I found this I was wondering whether the Captain John Sutherland you were looking for might have been in the employ of The Honourable East India Company.That might still be a possibility.
The article also has an interesting other name included......I'll"keep my powder dry"(military pun intended) on that one till I've done a bit more sleuthing.
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
I'd hate for you to go off half-cocked. Fire when ready.
Joe
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It seems that the Scots Greys,also known as the 2nd Dragoons were in Dublin in 1850
http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/850DAA.pdf
Regards
Roger
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Probably(?) not related but I came across the following portrait of Anne,Duchess of Sutherland(born 1828 as Anne Hay McKenzie)
A very similar look,and apart from the central rosette(?),a remarkably similar dress.
Regards
Roger
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The two 1841 that you added a snippet for Joe. Remembering always that the 1841 census was the most limited in terms of info. Relationships within the household were not supposed to be included and ages for those over 15 years old were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years:
Jessie aged 13 in Loth Sutherland, she shows as a FS (female servant). A Donald Sutherland, 45 and a tailor shows as head.
The other entry I remember looking at before. There was a reason why I stopped looking at it (can't remember now, would have to re-do searches - maybe I missed something then?) but did start thinking it had some potential given the father's occupation:
Johen Sutherland 55, Messenger At Arms, b. Scotland
Margt Sutherland 51, b. Scotland
Jessie Sutherland 13
Walter Mclean Sutherland 11
Address:Spout Street, Forfar
A good accurate site to also check for the 1841 transcriptions is http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl which is particularly good now for coverage for that year (just remember to click the right year tab at the front. Searching for a Jessie and a Janet (as Roger has mentioned above) brings up quite a few entries. I have been searching for a Janet/Jessie b. 1828 +/- 2 yrs. I know we have a potential birth date from Jessie stone, but this does not guarantee accuracy unfortunately....but every little helps1
Monica
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Re-doing some searches I did before. The reason I discounted the Forfar 1841 family was that I thought I could see who I thought were Jessie and Walter in 1851:
Jessie Sutherland, 22 house servant b. Forfar living in Perth
Walter Sutherland, lodger, 21, shoemaker b. Forfar living in Leys Mill, Angus
Monica
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It looks very likely that the"Captain" referred to as the brother of George Sutherland of Forse is Francis and that the other brother John did die in 1846.Back to the drawing board..........
Regards
Roger
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Sorry i have just come upon this post and have not read it all but i wonder is this of any help to you,
James Caulfield 1st Earl of Charlemont 1728 to 1799 lived at Marino House he was born in Dublin according to Wikipedia article on him and his forebears.
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I did wonder whether Edward in the following was the same person as the witness and perhaps a brother.He is of about the right age and may have called his son after the father.I had hoped to trace him earlier,perhaps with his wife.This could lead in turn to a marriage and possibly the family.
However I'm having trouble finding him earlier.It's a very long shot anyway.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M8MB-1LH
Regards
Roger
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It is a possibility isn't it, Roger :-\ I have to admit, I have spent a bit today retracing my steps and trying to add to what we have. I still struggle with the lack of info on James and Jessie's early years in Cincinnati, Ohio. Apart from 3 children's births between 1855-61, we have nothing else apart from the 1881 census and directory listings. I think this is a good summary from Joe on the American board and picks up on possible and likely directory listings www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=501354.0
It is odd that we cannot pick up anything else, and I have spent many hours in the past and again now ::) going through the possibilities :-\
I have today also picked up on a Sutherland family. There is a Thomas Sutherland born c. 1787 (I think from Edinburgh going by one census entry in London in 1861)and wife Janet, no children I can find so far. Then a brother to Thomas, a James Sutherland born c. 1776 in Scotland on his second marriage to an Elizabeth Watt from 1826. James Sutherland had a daughter Jessie Sophia Sutherland in the later 1830s in London. There is also an entry for a John James Sutherland born c. 1826 in Scotland in the 1841 census entry for the household which I am not sure if a son to James or a nephew. Both James and Thomas Snr.s show as Merchants (wine?) by occupation and in business together in London from before 1840s-51. Both show as retired by 1851, and living in the same household, with James' family and servants. James dies c. 1855.
It was the link to names of Jessie Sophia Sutherland and a John James Sutherland that made a connection for me to our James Francis Burke and Jessie Sophia Sutherland, who also had a John James Burke in 1861. Can't break through though to a possible sibling called John Sutherland, who was an army Captian, had a daughter Jessie Sophia in 1828 etc...frustration ;D
Monica
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Oh, man... So much to chew on and so many paths to go down on.
Not to discount or disrespect any work you all have done, and I know this pursuit is rarely linear, but my brain needs some focus, and I feel a responsibility as the initiator of all this wonderful activity to manage my eager troops.
So, I am choosing to focus on James Francis Burke and his parents, and will take my lead from Roger's mention of naming patterns.
Yes, Roger: J&J's first child was Mary Helen. Let's then assume that Mary was the name of JF Burke's mother, (and that Helen was the name of JS Sutherland's mother).
So the documents closest to JF's wedding record will be
1st: JF's 1841 Census records.
2nd: JF's 1830 baptism record.
I am pretty sure he is Roman Catholic based on the fact that all church records for him in the US are RC. (From their marriage record I am pretty sure that JS Sutherland is Protestant. It is also interesting and perhaps telling that when Jessie Sophia Burke died, James placed her in a non-Catholic cemetery).
Alternatively (before or after Jessie and James's marriage): Death of Mary Burke spouse of John Burke and visa-versa
So let's focus the probabilities of "John and Mary Burke, Roman Catholic" into a more focused search for James's 1830 baptism and '41 census record.
Joe
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whoops! Just corrected Jame's birth year in the above to "1830". Sorry.
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I've been a bit quiet,not because I disagree with your approach,I'm just having trouble finding credible candidates!
Considering Ireland first,this was obviously a time of great upheaval with landowners("gentlemen?") affected as well as the general population.The following caught my eye as timely with the "correct" parents.The trouble is the Irishgenealogy site which is available doesn't cover Galway to check baptisms.I'll see if there is anything on RootsIreland.
http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/7th-december-1850/15/imbrium-ea
I noticed also that on the USA census there is a Mary E-is this perhaps Mary Ellen as a variant of Mary Helen,giving an alternative family name to look for?
There are so many "Captain John Sutherlands" to look at -my brain is also hurts and in my case "pie doesn't fix everything".
I noticed that you referenced JS Sutherland in your last post.Where does the intermediate S come from?The reason I am asking is that I have been tracing a Captain John Sutherland of the 56th Regiment,Bengal Native Infantry.In a newspaper announcement of his death in India(Nov 1846,reported 1847) he is referred to as John S Sutherland.(he is not to be confused with the 16th Laird of Forse,who dies in Feb 1846).He is of interest perhaps,because his death might explain the need for guardianship.I have found him in India in the mid to late 1820s,which,if Jessie was born there would explain the difficulty in finding a birth/baptism/census record.Having said that I might have expected to find somewhere in the FIBIS records something akin to "....to the lady of Captain John Sutherland a daughter...".From my limited experience names are not usually given.However so far I have not even found such a statement.Probably entirely unconnected anyway there is a baptism record for John Sutherland in 1794 to Robert "Sutherland or Ross".I have no idea where this duality originates.
More headache......
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger:
Well, pie may not fix everything, but making/eating pie is pretty good at lifting one's spirits. I was about to do so after the thread went silent after my last post ;)
And, regarding "JS Sutherland": so sorry if my slip of a finger led you down a deep rabbit hole.
But... let's not discount your "JS Sutherland" too quickly. Based on your observation of "Mary Ellen" and "Mary Helen", it's possible he is in the running. To the ear, Ellen can certainly sound like Helen, and I have noted an entry in the WCD or that census listing where Mary Helen was entered as Mary Ellen. "John S" could certainly be taken for "John F", so who knows, perhaps you are on to the right person with that particular "John S". Wouldn't that be something?
A rather funny example of this is a Cincinnati census listing written and transcribed as "Cartes, Charles". This guy is actually Charles Curtis. But I can just see the census taker trying to understand the poor fellow repeating his last name, which to him sounded like "Kar-tess" or "Kor-tess".
Regards,
Joe
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There is one flaw in the following scene,the statement that John Sinclair Sutherland,son of George Sinclair Sutherland of Brabster died without issue-but as I think the article has his death date wrong,perhaps that statement is in error also.Here is his pedigree:
http://www.fionamsinclair.co.uk/genealogy/Caithness/Brabster.htm
I hve searched the FIBIS database and there is no entry for 1844.The 1846 entry matches the newspaper article -"James S Sutherland" and the tone is that of someone important in the community(Brabster is in Caithness as per the report).
Further,note that he has a brother James.Here is an entry for the Dublin Directory of 1850 that has a James Sutherland and Miss Sutherland together- a good fit for a guardian and his ward?
http://www.libraryireland.com/DublinDirectory1850/s.php
(There is an entry for what looks like Francis James Burke,but that could genuinely be someone of that name.
I have a whimsical suggestion for the Burkes but will have to leave that till later today.
I'll also see if the above has any connection with the alternative countess I found.I've always been slightly concerned that the portrait you have appears to be of a very young lady-for the Duchess of Charlemont that would mean abut 1800.I know it is a huge ask,but did you suggest removing the frame?
Regards
Roger
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In looking to see if there were other occupants with James and Miss Sutherland,I've noticed that they are actually at different addresses in the same road.I'm not sure where this leaves the argument-certainly not stronger.
Regards
Roger
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In place of the whimsy,I think I'd be better off looking for the family of John Burke Esq. and Mary Helena Burke referred to here.
Regards
Roger
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Roger, wish I could help you more on the Irish resource side but I have little to no experience of researching there (I used a professional researcher when I first started for my Irish folk). Most of my breakthroughs in Ireland are simply lucky strikes ;D
Have we talked about a John Burke and Mary Helena previously on this thread (it is so long, it gets harder to find stuff again unfortunately).
I found this https://sites.google.com/site/edmundotoolevc/ireland/family-profiles with those names in Dublin. (Added: Mary Helena's father is showing as 'John Burke, a Merchant. (Father of Mary Helena Burke - from Marriage record)' Marriage in 1839....so not sure, again because of father's occupation whether this is just a blank and too random :-\).
Monica
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Mary Helen was the name of Jessie and James daughter(their first child).James father was a John Burke gentleman.
Given that the Mary Helena in the article married in 1839,therefore born c 1815-20(?)I thought James Francis circa 1829 might be her brother.
Thanks for the "merchant" reference,that might help identify him in the 1850 directory
Regards
Roger
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Roger, I was trying to start to do a short summary of key points, which is good now given post has revitalised ;) However, parents' evening approaches for No.2 son, I need to disappear!
One thing to remember is that we have a good 4/5 year gap for the first recorded child, Mary Helen in 1855 in Cincinnati. Joe's US post certainly likely places James and Jessie in Cincy from around 1851 from the City directories (link to that post earlier here).
We are misising some children therefore. If they followed naming pattern, they could well have repeated important names if first child with that name died early. The problem with adding to this theory is that we have no trace of them in the US until 1880...other than likely directory entries. This is a problem with trying to trace back :-\ We are missing very likely some further info but can't guess this given that the records are not helping. Joe, I know you have said you have tried to follow up on local Cincy records but no joy so far.
It is such a hard...and obsessive...search ::) ;D
Monica
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Might be an idea to order a copy of the civil registration of the marriage. I've never had to get one prior to 1864, since my lot are all RC. But I presume the process was the same, as in someone had to go to the registration office in person and give the information. Hopefully it could offer a more precise address than just 'Clontarf'. I've never seen anything as vague as that on a post 1864 Catholic marriage
The details are:
Dublin North
Volume: 5
Page Number: 39
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I can't begin to express how impressed and grateful I am with all of your hard work and obvious dedication to this quest of mine. Very humbling. How can I ever repay you?
On the subject of JF&JS Burke's kids: I've conducted a fairly thorough search of the WCD listings and have noted that at the JF Burke residence there is often an Alice Burke1 and Charles Burke. (I've attached a 1 to her name to make the following clearer). This Alice Burke1 is the wife of Charles Burke, as indicated by late WCD listings after Charles died (she thereafter is listed as "Alice Burke, wid Charles").
1872 is the first year I find an Alice Burke associated in the WCD with JF&JS Burke: this time with "Mrs. Jessie Burke", shown at the same address. (it probably is not Jessie's daughter Alice2: THAT Alice would be only 14 years old, which is pretty young for a WCD listing).
1875 Alice 2 Curtis (ne Burke) is 17yo. She gives birth to Jessie J. Curtis.
1879 is the first year that a Charles Burke is listed at the same address as Alice1 Burke. From then until 1894 Alice1 is shown very frequently living at the same address as JS&JF. Charles is living with them less frequently.
All this to say that I think this husband of Alice1 Charles Burke is a relative of JF Burke. Maybe a brother? Son? Uncle? Who knows. I can't seem to nail down any census info on Charles and Alice.
I am cross eyed tired, so if any of this makes sense it's a miracle. Good night all.
Joe
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As I've made no further progress at the moment,I thought I'd resort to whimsy:-
In the Griffith Valuation there is an Edward Burke(with a Patrick Lawless) and a James Burke in Back Lanes next to Dollymount listed under Greenlanes.
This may or may not be him,but I hope we can rule him out as the one we are seeking(!)
http://books.google.gr/books?id=WRktAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA510&dq=clontarf+%2B+%22john+burke%22+%2B+gentleman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gWULU5H_D4PP0AXB84GABw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=clontarf%20%2B%20%22john%20burke%22%20%2B%20gentleman&f=false
Regards
Roger
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Following my whimsy(apologies if this was inappropriate) I have resumed the search and am currently trying to find out more about John Sutherland born in Clyne,Scotland,who first served in the Reay Fencibles and became adjutant and captain in the Galway militia,which he served for more than 42 years,according to a report of 1845.He had a daughter Jesse in late 1824 and a further daughter Jane in 1829(both baptised in Galway).Jane can sometimes be rendered as Jess(ie),though I can't see a death for the Jesse to make Jane a "replacement"His wife's name was Catherine(possibly Sutherland).
Regards
Roger
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Here is a Burke "theory I am looking at:-
It starts with a pair of brothers,Sir Thomas Burke and William Burke,sons of Sir John Burke and his wife Mary Carroll.
Thomas Burke's line leads to the 2nd Baronet(1782-1847) who has a residence at Ely Place,Dublin
In 1850 there is a Francis James Burke at Ely Place,but he does not appear to be the son of this line.
William Burke marries Theresa Kirwan and their residence is Ower of Galway.(There are also a lot of Kirwans in the Galway militia).They have a son John Burke(1776-1849).Could both Mary Helena and Francis James(aka James Francis) be the children of this John,with Francis James staying at a relatives house prior to the wedding and needing a guardian,because his father has died the year before?
Regards
Roger
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There are a number of reports in the 1850s and 1860s,generally under the headings of "Incumbered Estates" that refer to Maria Burke.One in particular in 1863 following her death specifies her as the widow of John Burke of Ower.
There is a baptismal record for a Francis Burke born to John and Maria Burke in Galway in 1830.It does not specify an address but has "Ardranny".I will check to see if I can reconcile this data.
Regards
Roger
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I have found a genealogy for the Burkes of Ower and I think the John I specified may have died without children(seems to be a common theme in my enquiries).However,I still think this family with many branches is worth further investigation for a different John.
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
Inappropriate? After my latest directive to stay on the Burkes, and seeing how much work and creativity you put into them, I have no right to stop you from taking a vacation in sunny Sutherland.
Where are you? Can I bake you a pie?
Joe
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Thanks for the pie offer,but it would have to journey to North Wales.
I still don't feel we have necessarily closed in on either of the families.The Sutherland/Galway militia connection is a possible but the age discrepancy for Jesse is worrying.I haven't managed to trace the parents families back in Sutherland to see if they have any aristocratic connections.
The Burke/Ely Place connection looked suitable from that point of view.I still find it interesting.The 2nd Baronet of the main line(a John Burke) died at Ely Place in 1847 and while he had offspring he didn't have a Francis James as far as I can tell(one article I need to find again suggested he had more children than the main literature suggests,but is possibly an error).I can't find a credible alternative Francis James Burke to fit the person in Ely Place in 1850(same house?-can't tell)......and the "2nd Baronet had a sister Anne Burke,who married Sir Henry Joseph Tichborne and might therefore have been "Lady Anne"..........but I can't find a picture of her(she died in 1858).
Regards
Roger
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I've resolved the discrepancy with the children of John Burke,2nd Baronet and it doesn't help(partially because it didn't need to).He did have more children than listed in the online Peerage, but no Francis James.It was his son Charles that was listed at Ely Place in 1850.Francis James Burke,whoever he was,is listed at 5 Grenville Place.I'm running out of drawing boards to go back to.....
Regards
Roger
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If at first you don't succeed......pie,pie,pie again?
Surely there are too many coincidences in the following set of data for there not to be a connection,but not yet a solution,to your quest:-
In the O'Donovan's Field Name Series compiled in the 1840s there is this entry for James Burke Esq at Burkes Court in Galway.The property is in the name of Sir John Burke(2nd Baronet as referred to previously,who dies in 1847 in Dublin.The other name-Hyacinth Clark is his agent.)
http://places.galwaylibrary.ie/asp/fullresult.asp?id=46413
In 1851,there is an entry in Encumbered Estates for Edward Burke of Clonco/Burkes Court,with Hyacinth Clark named again.Given the death of Sir John Burke and the famine background etc,perhaps the estate was in trouble and selling off parts.
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=1083
And where is the property of Burkes Court described as being situated? "..10 chains(220yds) from a castle that has a number of variant spellings including "Clondegoff"(It may also be that this is in the parish/diocese of Clonfert!)
http://www.travelmania-ireland.com/place.php?id=1034
Further,Sir John Burke was a military man(Colonel of the 98th Foot),but,importantly,he was Vice Lord Lieutenant of the County.The Lord Lieutenant is in charge of the local militia-in this case,obviously the Galway militia,in which John Sutherland as previously described,served for 42 years.
I am not necessarily implying that James Burke Esq is the son of Sir John Burke(?),as he is not acknowledged as such as far as I can see.Sir John may be the landowner and some other branch of the Burke/De Burghs may be in residence.The Clanricardes were associated at some point.
As I also said before Sir John Burke had a sister who probably would have been known as Lady Anne due to her marriage.
Regards
Roger
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Hmmmm....
I can't pretend to comprehend all this, but it's sounding very interesting. I'll spend some more time going over it.
Your research keeps digging up men of title. From the wedding record we know that James and his father John were "gentlemen". The fact that they were of high social standing reminds me of the report my hired researcher issued a year or so ago.
He was perplexed that he could not find mention of James and Jessie's marriage in the Dublin Newspapers (specifically the Freeman's Journal, where he says the wedding announcement would be most likely). He mentions that an extensive examination of other papers was conducted, with no results. To him this was "not in keeping with JF Burke's status as a gentleman." The searches were made for the period between April 18th and May 7th (The wedding was on the 20th). Maybe the search should be for an earlier date. Might it be that they had planned to marry earlier, but something came up, and they married a week or two later, after the date mentioned in the announcements?
Anyway, Roger, how about I send you the report in a PM? I think I'll see if I can do that.
Thanks for your continuing pursuits.
Regards,
Joe
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I can understand your lack of comprehension as I am trying to draw together disparate records featuring the prominent names.
It would be interesting to get a view on how a local pronunciation of Clondagauv would sound to a foreign ear.If nobody picks up on this thread it might be worth posting a query on the Galway board.
I have found a further record for Edward Burke,"formerly of Cloncoe,farmer" who is bankrupt in 1851.If he is the witness and possibly somehow related,it seems to fit a picture of the family/estate crumbling and James looking to the "New World".
What I am really struggling with is trying to decide which side of the family "Lady Anne" might relate to.
Thanks for your PM report.I don't think it really adds anything significant,unfortunately.
It does contain an obvious conclusion,which I have alluded to,which I know is not in your gift-finding an artist name or other evidence on the painting.
Regards
Roger
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I do not know if this will assist you but the ''Index of prerogative wills by Sir Arthur Vicars'' lists a John Burke of Ower 1792 and William Burke of Ower 1804 plus several other Burkes for Ireland general.
I found putting names into the search box top right hand side of page gives negative results but if you click on the small page top left hand side you can flick through the pages alphabetically.
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Thanks for the Burke of Ower reference.I have considered that family but,at the moment,I still favour the following:
The de Burgh(Clanricarde) family of Portumna,Galway were the owners of Clondegoff Castle.The local pronunciation does not help the argument,but in the Anglicised version as presented,with advice that exists that an internal d might be pronounced as a t-it is interesting to pronounce Clontegoff quickly.
John de Burgh founded the Connaught Rangers of which the Galway Militia became a part(4th Battalion).He married Elizabeth the daughter of Sir Thomas Burke Baronet of Marble Hill,Galway.
To come forward a generation,Ulick John de Burgh(Ulick meaning "son of earl" or similar),son of John was appointed Lord Lieutenant of Galway in the 1830s..Sir John Burke,son of Thomas became vice Lord Lieutenant.Between them they would have had responsibility for the Galway Militia.The Captain John Sutherland I identified lived at Ballinasloe,approx 20 to 30 miles from both Portumna and Marble Hill(near Loughrea).The de Burghs and Burkes must have known that John Sutherland.
Sir John Burke of Marble Hill also appears to be a tenant of Clondegoff castle which is effectively where a James Burke Esq. is listed in the 1840s.His estate that gets into trouble after his death in 1847,and the house eventually becomes a ruin.
While I can't find a reference to James Burke as a son of either of the de Burgh or Burke families it would be easy to speculate that he might be an unrecorded(or illegitimate) child of one or the other.I favour him being a son of Sir John Burke,"living away" at Clondegoff.This scenario might also provide the reason why there doesn't appear to be a marriage announcement in any press of the time.
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
Very interesting, the possible acquaintance you suggest, of John Sutherland of Balinasloe with the deBurghs and Burkes.
I am trying to understand this last post of yours so bear with me.
In your statement...:
Sir John Burke of Marble Hill also appears to be a tenant of Clondegoff castle which is effectively where a James Burke Esq. is listed in the 1840s. His estate that gets into trouble after his death in 1847,and the house eventually becomes a ruin.
...I'd like clarity on the following:
By His above, you mean Sir John Burke of Marble Hill, correct?
And by "tenant of Clondegoff castle", "tenant" doesn't mean living in the castle, correct? "Tenant" means renting some abode on the estate of Clondegoff castle, correct?
And when you mention James Burke Esq. as "listed in the 1840's" at the castle, would he be listed even though he was just a young boy (JFB was b. Dublin 1830).
In imagining my ancestor James Francis Burke as an illegitimate son of Sir John of M.H., are you suggesting, with the phrase "living away in Clongdengoff", that Sir John was supporting his son JFB, and keeping him out of sight of Sir John's family, by putting JFB up on some far away property?
And your concluding sentence: by "This scenario", do you mean JFB's illegitimacy? So in this sentence you are suggesting that the wedding of an illegitimate son would not be acknowledged by his (or the bride's) family with the normally traditional publishing of a wedding announcement?
Would Sir John Burke's illegitimate child still be considered a "gentleman", as shown in the marriage record?
Oh, and if Sir John is only a tenant on the Clongdengoff Castle estate and he dies in 1847 and his estate gets into trouble, why would that cause the house to go into ruin? Isn't the house's state of repair the responsibility of the owners of the Clontarf castle estate (the Vernons, right?)?
No judgments on any of this (I've got illegitimacy on my dad's side too!). Just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.
Regards,
Joe
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In preparing links to answer your questions I came across the following which perhaps suggests a more likely lineage for the James Burke at Clondagoff.Firstly the general lineage up to and including James Carrol Burke who marries Bidelia Dowling in 1829.
http://www.archive.org/stream/familyrecords01burk#page/n265/mode/2up
Secondly a reference that links Bidelia to Burkes Court in the 1840s-the address of James
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=1321
Given her husbands first name being James(who dies in 1836),it seems likely that he is the father.
The castle appears to have been associated with this branch of the Burkes for some time and Sir John Burke is probably the landlord,though the property is probably on the Clanricarde Estate of the De Burghs.
There are some records of a John Anthony Burke Esq of Clondagoff(died 1863?),most likely associated with the Burkes of Meelick House and Tintrim.I'll see if I can find anything more on his family.There is an Anthony Burke(b 1755) in the lineage of the Burkes from the castle.
Regards
Roger
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As far as I can tell John Anthony Burke is not relevant.If I have not mentioned it before,however, there is an article from 1849 telling of Edward Burke Esq of Marble Hill finding a body at Portrumna Castle(home of the De Burghs and relatively close to Clondegoff Castle).He is an obvious candid ate for the witness,but I can't find him in any lineage at the moment.
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
Watching, reading, trying to comprehend, with great interest and appreciation.
Regards,
Joe
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I've been trying to find out more about the James Burke Esq close to Clondegoff Castle in the O'Donovan Field Names of the 1840s in the hope that he would be the one being sought.He may be synonymous with James Ulick Burke,of a broadly similar address in the same series,which would obviously rule him out from being James Francis Burke.
Regards
Roger
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I've been trying to trace the family of Captain John Sutherland of the Galway Militia,and while I have had moderate success with some of his children,I struggled to find his parentage(perhaps more important) and now I know why.
He was one of ten acknowledged illegitimate children of James 5th Lord Duffus and Lady Mary Hay,with whom he eloped.(I think she had been married at 16 or 17 to the commander of the regiment,in which James Sutherland was then captain.They were divorced within a year).
The will of James Lord Duffus is available at The National Archives-not the easiest of reads in the handwriting of the time,but in one of the margins he specifies a "natural daughter" Jessie(which his son is to repeat) and in the body of the will "....Captain John a(?) Sutherland,my natural son,adjutant to Lord Clancarty (next word difficult),of the Irish Militia,presently residing at Ballinasloe...."
Importantly for the line of enquiry I am pursuing with this man I don't think there is a castle in Scotland that could be considered sounding like Clontarf or similar.Also it is not obvious there is a Lady Anne in the Duffus line.I'm unsure about John Sutherland's wife at the moment-possibly a Catherine Sutherland.Perhaps she has the mysterious Lady in her background.
However,I still thjnk there's mileage in the connections of Clondegoff Castle in Galway,perhaps through the Burkes of Meelick or Tintrim.
Regards
Roger
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The grandmother of Lady Mary Hay was a Lady Anne Livingstone,Countess of Kilmarnock,but she would be a generation too far and,I think,can be discounted.James Sutherland probably abandoned Lady Mary at some point and there is no guarantee that she was the mother of any of the children .
I also cannot see an obvious connection either between Lad Mary Hay and Anne Hay McKenzie,Countess of Cromartie,Duchess of Sutherland a previous putative candidate.
I also need to look again at the possible wife(or wives?) of Captain John Sutherland.The possibility of her being Catherine Sutherland was based upon John Sutherland being "..of Clyne...".I am unsure whether this is the case now.
Regards
Roger
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Following the Lord Clancarty connection with John Sutherland,I have now found the following records which look interesting,but do not yet identify the John Burke involved.
Then 1825 officers for the Galway militia at Ballinasloe include a Lieutenant John Burke with John Sutherland.
The 1856-7 Valuation series lists a John Burke next to the Earl of Clancarty(and Viscount Dunlo,which I think is an extra title for the same person).They are listed at Graigueawoneen which is very close to Ballinasloe.
The 3rd Earl of Clancarty is William le Poer Trench,who I believe acts as an officiant(civil dignitary) at the wedding of John Sutherland's daughter Catherine in 1836 at Ballinasloe.
John Burke is hardly an uncommon name in the area-I'll see if I can identify him(or both?) further.
Regards
Roger
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Hello Roger:
The circumstance of a John Burke and a John Sutherland together as "brothers in arms" is tantalizing. If it were possible to trace the transition of this particular John Burke from military to "gentleman", while John Sutherland remains military, it would certainly strengthen your case. Can't wait to find out more.
Sorry for the late reply. In Florida, with my mom the past few days. We are visiting her sister, my aunt Pat, to wish her our last farewell. As the first born female of her family, she is the one who was handed Lady Anne's artifacts from her mother.
My aunt is an exceptional person, having endured suffering from people and circumstance that would justify cynicism, anger and disconnection. But she's always taken the high road. And despite her poor, rough-and-tumble origins and blue collar surroundings, she is the royal matriarch of her family and community. Whenever I feel mistreated by life, I pray that I will consider my aunt's tribulations and her positive responses to them.
It has been a great visit, sad and sweet. Many hours talking and laughing, all centered around my aunt lying in bed, directing my mom, my uncle, and myself to open this and that drawer containing jewelry and bring it to her bed, where she would finger through it. "This is for you", or "This is for so-and-so", she would command, and inside a ring or on a clasp was already engraved the name of who she wanted to have it.
Two days ago was the jewelry. Today, the clothes. A few weeks ago, when my cousin Denise was here, Lady Anne's portrait made the transition from one generation to the next, as it has at least four times before. I could not help but wonder at the erie congruity of the components and ceremony of this scene with those of Lady Anne's artifacts: the portrait, the jewelry, the dress. I cannot help but feel Lady Anne's presence here, and wonder again at her intention in making her existence known and felt to so many people, family and otherwise, so long after she lived. I have no doubt that her presence is a generous and loving one.
Thanks again for your help Roger, and everyone else here at RootsChat, for helping to reveal and perpetuate Lady Anne's influence on our family.
Sincerely,
Joe O
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It is a very touching and evocative family scene you describe,Joe,and perhaps the following will give you hope of resolving your query.It certainly solidifies my belief that the connection we are trying to identify is the correct one.
In looking for John Burke associated with Clondegoff(e),I found the following re John Burke of Lismore(buried at Meelick) who was married to Alice,daughter of William Brabazon of Ballinasloe:
http://burkeseastgalway.com/burke-of-lismore/
This has the attraction of the "Alice" element which I have failed to find in the Sutherland line so far and takes the date of connection to Clandegoff(e) into the early to mid 1700s.There is no male successor to this couple but a daughter Mary who marries Anthony Daly.I'm not sure yet of the precise relevance of all this but the author of the attached article who publishes many articles re the Burkes of Galway might well be worth contacting for his view.
For the moment we now have to leap forward to the 1880s,when a John Burke is evicted from Clandegoff(e) by the Clanricarde family in a contentious set of "clearings".This man appears to be a John Stanislaus Burke.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14511/14511-h/14511-h.htm
and even more remarkably there is this article which describes him as "....living in Cincinnati for eleven years before returning ....."
http://newspaperarchive.com/us/texas/san-antonio/san-antonio-light/1908/01-19/page-21
He may be consistent with a Stanislaus Burke given as born c 1849 and dying in Galway in 1905.
There is a series of " x Stanislaus Burke" births on Family Search with the first being at Lismore in 1873 and a second at "Mount Mellick"(Meelick?) in 1883.I can't say these are definitely attributable at the moment to John Stanislaus,with him being at Cincinnati in the intervening period (near Jessie and James?-can he be found in the Williams directories?).Other data fits-the eviction was in 1887.I think somewhere it suggests that following the eviction he remained locally and there is another birth of a John Stanislaus Burke in 1890 at Portumna,the seat of the Clanricardes.
So we perhaps have the bare bones of John and Alice Burke at Clandegoff in the early to mid 1700s,
a James Burke close by in the 1840s and a John Stanislaus Burke,also associated with Cincinnati,in the latter part of the 1800s.
And where does Lady Anne fit into this?Frankly,I don't know but there may be a connection between the Burkes of Meelick and the Burkes of Keelogues,who also have a connection with a Bermingham family which may be that of Anne Bermingham described previously.
Regards
Roger
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Joe, you had mentioned in posts pasts that your aunt was not well. I am so sorry to hear that her health issues are now where they are. What a wonderful loving family you all sound :)
Monica
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Curiouser and curiouser....
The "William Stanislaus Burke" birth in 1873 at Lismore is ascribed to a John H Burke and Mary O' Connell,consistent with a marriage the previous year.The "H" might stand for Hubert or similar.
Regards
Roger
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I think I may have mis-interpreted the article re Stanislaus Burke in terms of date.The evictions were in 1887 and the article(of 1908) suggests he had gone back after 11years in Cincinnati,but had been refused his old property because of his eviction 20 years earlier.This would mean he went to Cincinnati perhaps in 1897 or thereabouts.This could also mean he may be the Stanislaus Burke who dies aged 91 in 1951(Loughrea),which in turn would disqualify him from the 1873 Lismore parentage but not necessarily that of James Stanislaus Burke in 1883 and John in 1890(Portumna).
I can't find him on the 1911 Ireland census though.
Regards
Roger
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Roger and Monica, thank you for your kind thoughts.
And Roger, as always, I am amazed at your diligence, energy and resourcefulness.
Regards,
Joe
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I'm struggling to differentiate the possible John Burkes.The militiaman may well have been a gentleman first and an officer as a consequence.A John Burke Esq of Moyglass looks an interesting candidate.He appears to be different from Sir John Burke,whose lands appear to be adjacent.The estate is in the encumbered category in 1851,then associated with an Edward Burke,though I can't find a convincing death record for John Burke.Again there may be a link with a James Burke Esq,but I can't convince myself this is not James Ulick Burke as previously.
I have tried to find data on the wife of John Sutherland,Captain and Adjutant,in case she provides the Lady Ann(e) connection.In the record of Jesse's birth she is given as Catherine Sunderland which I think in the nature of the records is her maiden name.Again this is proving problematic.
John Sutherland's death is in 1847,given as 76 years old.Catherine may well have not have been his first wife-again a convincing death record with age eludes me.There is an entry in the abstract of wills for John Sutherland in 1847.I do not know if this means a will still exists(and,if so how to obtain it).Most records were apparently destroyed in a fire.The will obviously pre dates Jesse's marriage but could perhaps provide other clues,perhaps about his wife.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger:
Wish I could help you but that would be way out of my league. All I can do is cheer from the sidelines.
In terms of what I might be able to help with, I've been toying with getting back on ancestry, after about two years of cold turkey, in order to go at this from another tangent. If I can find a sibling of James F., they could possibly provide another route to JF's parents.
In the WCD, living with James F. Burke in Cincinnati is often shown an Alice Burke, wife of Charles Burke. Charles sometimes is with his wife and JF, sometimes he's living elsewhere. Have no idea if Charles is a brother to JF, or son, how old they are, etc. Anyway, all searching on FamilySearch for the couple bear no certain results, so Ancestry is the logical next step. Will have to wait 'til my cash flow improves a bit, hopefully in a month or so, and will let you know when I do so.
Regards,
Joe
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Joe, I more that second your comments on Roger's research and contributions!
Where I have concentrated in the past has been on the US data...as much as you can online, with relevant records available.
Joe, I think you have done a sterling job on the research of US City directories. With the exception of an early one, most entries pick up from the early 1870s to likely around the time of JF's death (which we now have confirmed). I did the link early on to this post in the US which gave a great summary but adding now again for easier ref www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=501354.0
I have spent hours...hours...over time looking at the US censuses for the period of 1861-1871 (we have the family in 1881). Using both FS and A/try. I have tried every wildcard in the book on a/try, all to no avail which has been very frustrating for sure. I have hoped that the American years might throw up some clues that would let us work back to Ireland/Scotland with more confidence. I haven't seen anything so far that helps...but never say never. They are there, we just haven't found them ;)
I have always wondered about the children they had. Three children that we know of so far seem too few. We also have the 5 year gap following their marriage in 1850 and the first record of a child, too long when it comes to getting possible clues sometimes in terms of naming patterns.
Monica
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Why haven't I thought of this before? THe Archdiocese of Cincinnati: it's where I got so much Burke information, including Jessie's maiden name. Back then I wasn't looking for Charles and other household members. It's all snail mail, but who cares? It worked.
Just looked at their website and wouldn't you know: they are relocating and won't be accessible until sometime in 2015. Argh!
Joe
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I thouggt from your earlier thread on the USA board that it seemed probable that Charles was the son of James.While looking at this I came across the following,which you have probably seen,but just in case:
http://drc.libraries.uc.edu/bitstream/handle/2374.UC/332823/18890401d_4.JPG?sequence=1
http://drc.libraries.uc.edu/bitstream/handle/2374.UC/367843/18940906d_5.JPG?sequence=1
Regards
Roger
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Despite the fact that her children appeared to have died relatively young without issue,I can't find a better candidate than Anne(sometimes Lady),2nd Countess of Charlemont,of Marino House Clontarf,born 1780.
Regards
Roger
Don't forget she was Countess of Charlemont... as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscount_Charlemont and then for Dublin.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Caulfeild,_1st_Earl_of_Charlemont, Marino House was their Dublin House.
http://archiseek.com/2010/1763-charlemont-house-parnell-square-dublin/ their city house.
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Roger:
Yes, thanks, I do have those death records of James and Jessie.
And hello Hallmark. It's been awhile. Thanks for your comment. Yes, your first link applies to Anne, wife of Francis Caulfield, the 2nd Earl of Clontarf. But the second link is for James, the father of Francis.
So far, Anne Caulfield does indeed seem to be the best candidate for our family's Lady Anne.
Hope you are all well and blessed with connection to your families, present and past.
Regards,
Joe
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Plenty of other links there too.. some records may be in Tyrone, have you checked Caulfield Pedigree?
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I've been trying to clarify the family sequence of Burkes associated with Clondagoff(also Clondagauv/Clondadauv) with limited success.Starting with the John Stanislaus Burke who was evicted in the late 1880s and then went to Cincinnati before returning,I have the following:
I think he travelled to Cincinnati in 1895 and returned 1906/7.The 1900 census has both a John S Burke and a Stanley Burke in the household of Mary E Burke in 946 Barr, Ward 20 Hamilton County,together with Francis,Edward and Bernard.It is likely he is the Stanley referred to here,as I also think there is an Irish record for him under John Stanley Burke.He is elsewhere described as a farmer.
Mary E Burke is described as widow of Garrett.This would fit as Garrett Burke is described in a newspaper article of 1864 as "..of Clandegoff Castle.."and is also a head of household in Cloondagauv in the Griffith Valuations.It looks likely that he fits with the Garrett Burke who died in 1879,aged 60.Mar E Burke and family emigrated in 1881.
However,I have failed so far to find the parents of Garrett Burke or John Stanislaus Burke(probably 1849-190?) or the relationship,if,any between them.
At the time of the Griffith Valuations (1840s) there is also the record of Bedelia Burke at Clondagoff.She is the wife of James Carroll Burke,their marriage being in 1829,and he died in 1836.
I don't have any solid evidence,but given the middle name,it is possible he is a descendant of the marriage of one of the daughters of Michael Carroll of Killoran.His daughter married a John Burke and I think this is the line that becomes the Burke Baronets of MarbleHill which has been investigated before.However there is also a report of a marriage of his second(unnamed daughter) to a Thomas Burke.I haven't been able to follow this line,but it might be the only remaining possibility to find a James Francis(or Francis James?) associated with this residence.I did find a record of a John Burke Esq in a property " ..adjacent to Sir John Burke(MarbleHil)...".I'm not overly optimistic about making this connection.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger:
Well, your lack of optimism is understandable, considering how dry you have wrung the cloth. But give yourself credit for a job well done.
Good news/bad news regarding the Charles J. Burke often listed at the same address as James Francis Burke in Cincinnati. I've identified him: John Charles. With a birth year of 1862, it's not a brother of JF (born 1829). 95% certain it is JF's son.
What "nailed it" was doing a search at Cinci's birth and death records: Certain that he died in 1893, I did a search for Burke that year, no first name, and came up with the attached, with the same address as J. F.
My difficulty in tracking him down was due to the name being different in that database than as usually shown in the WCD. Besides no "E" ending the surname, rather than the WCD's "Charles J." the death record shows "John Charles". I followed up and this new name version is supported by his wife Alice's death certificate, and his Find A Grave listing (though that transcribes it as "John B. Burke": no photo of grave marker).
Frustrating that John Charles' birth year wasn't earlier in JF's life, during that "invisible" first 5 years of marriage.
Regards,
Joe
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It's been a while,but I haven't given up.
There may be some merit in the following line of enquiry:-
I have found a record for the marriage in 1809 for John Southerland(sic),Galway Militia, to "Miss Daly of Tokery Lodge".The record is in Irish Marriages 1771-1812,Walkers Hibernian Magazine available at www.archive.org.
Miss Daly,is ,I believe Catherine(or Katherine) Daly from Tokay Lodge,which was in the Marino/Fairview area of Dublin.Perhaps,therefore,the records for the children born at Ballinasloe in the 1820s have Catherine Sutherland nee Daly as their mother.
Further,at www.thepeerage.com,her lineage is given as follows:-
Katherine Daly daughter of Denis Daly,Lieutenant Galway Militia (wife unknown?)
Denis Daly son of Michael Daly(1744-1808)(residencies Tokay Lodge,County Dublin-Mount Pleasant,Galway and Loughrea,Galway )and Lady Joanna Gore
Michael Daly son of Denis Daly and Lady Anne de Burgh(or Burke)
Lady Anne de Burgh daughter of Michael Bourke(or Burke),10th Earl of Clanricarde
My poor brain can't work out if Lady Anne de Burgh is of the right generation to qualify as a candidate,nor have I managed to find dates for her or a portrait so far.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger:
Great to hear from you. Thanks again for your dogged determinism.
It's really late and I'm REALLY tired, so take the following with all that in mind:
Looking over your information, Lady Anne de Burgh seems promising, especially with Miss Katherine Daly of Tokay Lodge being in the Marino area. Married in 1809, Katherine, if she was 18 at the time, would be 37 in 1828, Jessie Sutherland's birth year (19 years after the marriage): a bit old but still of childbearing age. But I must confess I am unclear as to your 1820's Ballinasloe reference. Might it be possible to find those birth records?
All I am sure about is that Jessie Sutherland was born Sept. 3 1828 in Scotland, and that she reports at least once that her parents John and ?? were born in Scotland.
My family's oral history says that "Lady Anne" is supposed to have been Jessie Sutherland's great grandmother. My work has shown "Lady Anne's" birth year to be from 1752 to 1783.
So let's work things out for the Lady Anne de Burgh and lineage you cite:
Lady Anne de Burgh marries Denis Daly, who beget:
Michael Daly, b. 1744, marries Lady Joanna Gore, who beget:
Denis Daly, later Lt. Galway Militia, marries unknown wife, who beget:
Katherine Daly of Tokery Lodge, who marries John Southerland, Galway Militia, in 1809, and beget (perhaps):
Jessie Sophia Sutherland, born Scotland 1828, who marries James Francis Burke in 1850
Wellllll….. looking backwards from this point, it works out that Lady Anne de Burgh would be Jessie's great great grandmother.
Problems:
1 generation different than oral history.
Katherine Daly not born in Scotland
Can't discount this connection based on a few discrepancies and my lack of sleep. Would love to hear more of what you dig up.
Regards,
Joe
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I'm still following the John Sutherland of the Galway Militia in this latest data.I can't find any way that he has a daughter born on the specified date in Scotland.so perhaps it's time to look for another candidate.You did say in a PM that you were looking at an alternative.Can you provide details?
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
The alternative is actually someone I'm sure I've mentioned before: the "Messenger at Arms" John Sutherland of Forfar/Forfarshire from the 1841 Census, detailed in the attached PDF. He has a daughter Jessie, 13 years old, so born 1828, which is the correct year.
Any thoughts?
Joe
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Before I look at the alternative,I've found a couple of possible "coincidences" associated with the Galway militia man.
The father of Lady Anne de Burgh is Michael Burke(10th Earl of Clanricarde,1686-1726),in turn the son of the 9th Earl,who "settled Clondagoff " on his son John(Michael's brother) in 1718,the year of John's death.I can't find the occupants of Clondagoff from this point to the early 1800s,but it may have stayed in the Burke/de Burgh family.
As far as I can tell the two earliest children from the marriage of John So(u)therland and Catherine Daly are Anne-Marie(1809) and Eleanor(1812).Not unlike Mary Helen,the daughter of James and Jessie?
However,the main problem remains that Jesse born to John and Catherine is baptised in Ireland in late 1824 and a Jane in May 1829.I'm not sure what happened to either of tghem as I can't find marriage or death records.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Joe and Roger
Great to see the work you are still working through here Roger. I have to admit I sat up straight when I looked at what you had posted in the last day or so. There are gaps though and wonder how we could bridge that info so that it be included/excluded.
Regarding the messenger at Arms, John Sutheland, there was this post from a couple of years ago:
I have looked already at this family in Forfar, with father John, messenger at arms. The family show as born outside of the county of Angus (Forfar) on their 1841 census entry.
I think wife may be Margaret Stewart. These are the children's births/christenings showing on IGI and SP:
John 1812 in Alyth Perth
Alexander 1813 in Alyth Perth
William 1815 in Alyth Perth - died that year
Ann 1816 in Alyth Perth (likely died young)
Ann 1819 in Forfar Angus
Elizabeth 1820 in Forfar Angus
Margaret 1823 in Forfar Angus
Jessie 1828 and Walter 1830 don't show on the Old Parish Register index on either SP or IGI. Nor is there a marriage showing between 1800-1815 for a couple with these names.
Possible entries in 1851 that I also found:
Walter Sutherland, 21, shoemaker, b. Forfar lodging with a Mollison family in Inverkeilor, Angus, and
Jessie Sutherland, 22, domestic servant b. Forfar working at the Matthew household in Perth, Perthshire
There is no mention in the OPRs births/christenings for a Jessie Sophia Sutherland. There is only one entry for a Sophia (no first name), daughter of John and mother Sophia in the right year range. The family were from Aberdeenshire, and father an agricultural labourer.
I have also looked at possible entries for Janet/Jean/Jane which are all variants with Jessie (see www.whatsinaname.net/) and nothing really jumping out unfortunately.
I am really stuck on what to advice now on the Scottish side without some new info :-\
Monica
Joe, from your pdf that you attached, the Master in Master McLean Sutherland is I believe 'Walter'.
Monica
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As far as I can tell a Messenger at Arms is not really a military title but a Court official.Is there any other evidence that this man was a Captain in the military?
Regards
Roger
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That 1841 entry is the only main reference I think we had. No sign of him in later census, other that potentially son and daughter working in 1851..by which point Jessie Sutherland had married James. To 100% exclude these Forfar entries, a search would need to be done to try and find either a marriage or death for Jessie and brother Walter.
Roger, you mentioned a possible daughter Jane, for Captain John. Could this be a reference to her in later years in England
Monica
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Aha! It was you, Monica, who had previously found John Sutherland in Forfar. Thanks for speaking up and showing work again. I see and understand the many potential holes for that connection, unfortunately.
Anyhow, will keep checking in. I really need to go over all of this to be back in synch and to comment sensibly. Don't know if can spare the time right now.
Thanks everyone.
Joe
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Another piece of considerable speculation:
In the previous lineage there was a Joanna Gore married to Michael Daly.In the listing at www.thepeerage.com. Joanna is listed as the first daughter of Arthur Gore,!st Earl of Arran.His eldest son and successor,Arthur Saunders Gore(Joanna's brother) had a daughter Lady Anne Jane Gore(1763-1827),who despite 3 marriages died without issue.Perhaps a portrait of her passed back to Joanna?Joanna's family also contained only one daughter(another Anne!) who died without issue.Her eldest son Denis Daly was the father of Katherine,who was an only child.
This superficially could match the requirement for passing through the eldest daughter(?)
The portrait of Lady Anne (Jane) Gore,of unknown age, is at the link below, and has a passing resemblance (as do most portraits of the period!).
http://www.thepeerage.com/p11030.htm#i110295
Regards
Roger
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As usual,I'm not sure the following really helps,but for what it's worth:-
The unframed silhouette you posted previously looks stylistically similar to this one,which appears to be attributed to Edgar Adolphe
Edgar Adolphe worked in Brighton up to approx. 1846.He is then reported to be in Dublin from"the mid 1850s".The earliest record I can find is the death of his wife Eloise in 1854.I can't currently find any references to his clientele in Dublin.
Regards
Roger
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Roger and Joe,
With Roger's new material, thought it might help to include again at this juncture the items you have in the family, Joe. The story is long and little gems get lost along the way sometimes ;):
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Also we have:
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I am going to add this here now, in case I lose the links :P Most links don't pick up on him until the 1850s in Dublin.
http://profilesofthepast.org.uk/artist/adolphe-edgar-monsieur
http://photohistory-sussex.co.uk/Profilists&SilhouetteArtists.htm
www.irisharchaeology.info/genealogy/photographers.html
Monica
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Roger, I wish I could put as much time into my family research as you have been doing lately. So much going on… We have finally scheduled time to visit out friends in Cincinnati: hopefully I can put some time into research while there.
And Monica, so great you thought of showing those "gems" again. They shocked me into great appreciation for their existence, and provided great context.
I really have to hit the hay.
Regards,
Joe
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"....Captain John a(?) Sutherland,my natural son,adjutant to Lord Clancarty (next word difficult),of the Irish Militia,presently residing at Ballinasloe...."
I think it says Lord Clancarty's regiment of ...
And the a(?) is just a little squiggle they put at the end of the line - so you couldn't add anything I suppose.
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Just curious, but is there a possibility that the painting name is linked to Sir Arthur Guinness, Lord Ardlian, St Anne's park, James Butler Brenan and Lady Ardilaun, St. Anne's, Clontarf.
Regards
Malky
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Hello Malky:
I appreciate your interest in this thread. Unfortunately, I have no answer to your question. Can you tell give me some context around the content of your question?
Regards,
Joe
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Having just read the entire thread (which I posted in a long time ago), a couple of points occur, which I hope isn't repeating a point, but since I am basically fresh eyes, I thought it was worth mentioning.
You've all spent a lot of time and effort working on various plausible options and discounting those that aren't.
However, getting the ring assayed and the portraits assessed properly is crucial to pinning part of this story down. For example, you are taking the family lore at face value and, without any malicious intent, that story could easily have changed over time. Two of the silhouettes look to be from a different time period from the other more detailed one the with the ruffle. An art expert will be able to put a date on all three, and may even be able to identify an artist/place of origin, which could corroborate (or refute) one of the theories.
One further point on the use of a first name with "Lady" - it's very unlikely that anyone whose title is Countess/Viscountess/Marchioness would be referred to as "Lady Ann". Any of those titles in spoken form is always Lady + title, e.g. Lady Meath (a countess), Lady Waterford (a marchioness). The wife of a knight or baron or baronet would also be Lady + title, e.g. Lady Rathdonnell. After her husband died, especially if she had a married son, she would be known as Mary, Lady Rathdonnell, but still referred to as Lady Rathdonnell in person.
Nowadays someone might incorrectly refer to any of these titled people as Lady Ann but in the past, there was better knowledge of forms of address. I still think you're more likely looking at a daughter who has a courtesy title. Incidentally, in that case, she would retain the Lady part of it and change surname if she were to marry, unless her husband had a better title than that of her father.
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I have loved this story :)
Hope something new pops up over time...
Monica
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I haven't given up,but am stuck in a rut of my own making.
Regards
Roger
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Ahhh, Roger...know what you mean :-\ Often happens with these lovely long drawn out sagas doesn't it.
Monica
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Just a couple of points from the rut.
1.Denis Daly,the father of Catherine(sometimes Katherine),wife of John Sutherland,was also in the Galway Militia
http://www.mocavo.co.uk/A-Genealogical-and-Heraldic-History-of-the-Colonial-Gentry-Volume-2-3/851577/112
This in itself is perhaps no surprise,and doesn't mean that they are relevant.
2.More importantly,the previous analysis leading to the Gores was based on Denis's family.The family tradition was passage through the first born daughter,so shouldn't we be tracing through Denis's wife? So far,I can't trace her.
Regards
Roger
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I've found a baptismal record for Den(n) is Daly,April 1767,in which his mother,wife of Michael Daly, is given as Lady Ann Daly.I think this can only increase the likelihood that she is the lady of the portrait.
Regards
Roger
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Yet again I've failed to reach a satisfactory conclusion
to the following speculation,but I think it has enough merit
to present it in the hope that somebody can make more of it.
I started by looking at other data relating to Burkes at Clontarf
at www.irishgenealogy.ie,around the 1850 marriage,in the faint
hope that they might be related.
The first record(Nov 1843) is for the burial of Walter Burke
,given as of Deansfield(sic)Clontarf.The address is actually
Danesfield,and not,I think,to be confused with Danesfield
in Galway,though there may be a Co.Galway connection.
This Walter only born in August,was the son of another
Walter Burke,who married Elizabeth,daughter of John
Campbell,a merchant from Clonmel,who was the occupier
of the Dublin Danesfield.
I think he is the Walter Burke listed in Shaw's 1850 directory
as of 93 Abbey Street and 10 Nelson Street,merchant and
foundry coke manufactory.
Throughout the early 1800s there are a number of Burke
(merchant) entries in Abbey Street.I can also find reference
to Walter Burke,being of Templeogue House,the same
address given for Francis Burke in Shaw's 1850.
Slightly surprisingly,I believe this Francis died(possibly
suicide) in Galway in 1849,but he also has listings at 57 Abbey
Street Dublin in relation to a company called Burke and Dixon
and Dumbarton Crown Glass(he is also described as a wine merchant
and has a number of bankruptcy references).
It is James Dixon,son of William,below,who appears to be Francis' partner.
This latter company has it's roots in Dumbarton,Scotland with
William Dixon(married to Margaret Swan),the patriarch.There is considerable
relationship between these two families,perhaps the start being the
record of the marriage of John Walter Burke of Galway to Helen Dixon,
(daughter of William,born 1782,Dumbarton),at Rutherglen in 1804.
There is also the possibility that Francis married
another daughter,Margaret(born 1787) and amongst other siblings
he has a son called James born in 1829 in Rathfarnham.This doesn't
qualify him,of course,and there is some data from the tree of a David Burke
that he may be a James Louis Burke.What I cannot find is what
happened to John Walter Burke and Helen-could they have had a son
called John who was the father of James Francis?Could he,or a son
be the John Burke,merchant of 45 Abbey Street?
Further,in the 1862 Dublin Directory,sandwiched between two refs.
to Walter Burke at 91 and 93 is a company called Ross and Murray
(who also have a branch in Ballinasloe).The patriarch of the Ross family
is William,reputed to have married a Miss Murray,but whether a Jane or not
I don't know.There is a record for the death of a Jane Ross in Dalkey
in 1863,given as wife of William Ross Esq.,and William's sons both have
addresses in Dalkey at some point,but I can't positively link her to them.
Just to add to the general confusion and frustration there are
records for Burkes(including a Walter) in the woollen trade in Chamber
Street(and a record in Shaw's 1850 for a Jane Ross in Chamber Street!)
This is all a bit rambling without linked references,but I felt the need to get
the core of the speculation outlined.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger et al:
It has been a very long time since I've been able to peek into all this. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to honor your continued effort with my own.
Will try to nudge my cousin into having the portrait and ring looked at.
Best wishes to you all over the holidays.
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Season's greetings to you too,Joe.Good luck with the nudging,particularly the portrait de-framing.
Regards
Roger
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Hello All, and happy new year. Hope everyone is doing well.
I'm am very, VERY excited to post this entry.
About a month ago I wrote up a summary of the Lady Anne saga for the appraiser who my cousin will (hopefully) submit the portrait to. In going over all of your and my research and forming the summary, I became quite certain on who Lady Anne most likely is, and speculated on how she might be related. I withheld sharing that summary with you all, because, without any supporting data from appraisal of the portrait, it was pure speculation.
Well, my cousin and I have yet to connect with the appraiser, BUT……
Today I received a reply from my most recent inquiry to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, and my judgement is that it all but confirms my speculation on how Lady Anne is related to James Francis Burke. All I can say for now is that it all centers on James Burke's singular insistence, throughout almost all of the historical records (census, directories, etc,) that he include his middle initial.
I know it's cruel to hold back at this point, but I must wait a few days to share this information while I do a little more digging around the record from the Archdiocese to make sure of the connection.
If you'll allow, my first bit of digging is this question: for years I've wondered why one of the two baptismal records I've had (in Latin from St. Xavier Church) for James and Jessie's kids (Mary Hellen and John James) shows the mother as "Maria":
- Mary Hellen 1855: mother Jessie Sudderland (father Jacob Burk)
- John James 1861 mother Maria Sudderland (father Jacob Burke)
Anyone have an idea why this is so? Is Maria sometimes substituted for Jessie in Latin church records? BTW, I am 100% certain due to corroborating records that the baptism records are of the same couple.
I will try to post or attach the month-old summary later on in the day. It's very late.
Regards,
Joe
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A tantalising prospect,Joe.Unfortunately,I can't answer your question.I'm only aware that Jessie is used as a form of Jane or Janet which would,I think,be Jana or Johanna.I'm sure there are plenty more people better qualified to answer your question,and let's hope they respond.How critical is it to your proposed solution?
Regards
Roger
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Hi All
Happy New Year to you all too from me :)
This is a great website for first name variants www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Jessie.html
Monica
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Well, actually, yesterday I asked the same question of the researcher at the Archdiocese of Cincy, and she said she gets similar questions quite often. She said it seems that some priests seem to have entered records long after the ceremonies had taken place, and simply forgotten names. She said one particular priest simply entered "Mary" for every female.
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Oh, Roger, sorry: I was asking the question in order to get perspective on the new record I obtained from the Archdiocese: except for "Maria" as the woman's first name, all the other pertinent data indicates the couple as James and Jessie.
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Okay, I'm attempting to attach the summary as a PDF. The final two pages may seem like a work of fiction but please put aside all the red flags until you let it sink in a bit. "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Arthur Conan Doyle
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Attachment downloaded OK-just about to read.I'll let it sink in and comment tomorrow.
Regards
Roger
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At this stage I haven't a clue at who to look for!!
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Firstly I had hoped that there was some small new piece of evidence you had uncovered that lead to your latest speculation,but it isn't evident to me.Rather than critique your speculation,I would prefer if you would reconsider the following alternative,particularly as I think in previous generation calculations I have failed to recognise that Jessie Koplik and Jessie Curtis are one and the same.
Consider the following sequence:-
Jessie Koplik(nee Curtis),daughter of
Charles Curtis/Alice Burke (Mother)
James Francis Burke/Jessie Sophia Sutherland(GM)
John Sutherland/Katherine Daly(GGM)
Dennis Daly/ Unknown(2 GGM)
Michael Daly/Lady Jo(h)anna Gore(3GGM)
Lady Joanna Gore had been married before,but married Michael Daly in 1766.The 1767 baptism record of Den(n)is Daly clearly gives the mother as Lady Ann Daly,obviously how she was known at the time.Further one of Michael Daly's residences was Tokay Lodge,incidentally next to "Lord Charlemont's demesne".So at this time she could be Lady Ann of Clontarf(the residence was sold circa 1807).
These are all documented relationships.Further Den(n)is Daly is at some point a Lieutenant in the Galway Militia where John Sutherland is Captain and Adjutant.John Sutherland has a daughter Jessie baptised 1824,but a Jane(the name generally sometimes rendered Jessie) baptised(not necessarily born) in 1829.The likelihood is that she was born in Ireland not Scotland,but I notice on Jessie Burke's death record(?) there is a reference to Ireland,which I assume is her birth place(?)
http://drc.libraries.uc.edu/bitstream/handle/2374.UC/332823/18890401d_4.JPG?sequence=1
All of this together makes a much more compelling case to me.
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
Gotta say your sequence is pretty convincing. Pardon me for not thoroughly reviewing all these pages before doing the summary. That's embarrassing.
Would love to look into the Sutherlands, Daly's and Lady Gore that you've uncovered. Any suggestions of where to look?
Regarding Jessie Sutherland's birthplace: I believe that the only source for her being born in Scotland is the 1880 Census. Yes, you are correct that her Cincinnati index card death record shows "Ireland" in the space reserved for national origin.
Sincerely,
Joe
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Lots of sources,I'm afraid,Joe(usually pay sites)
www.thepeerage.com(free)
www.rootsireland.ie(pay)
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk(pay)
Those are my immediate thoughts and a start!
Regards
Roger
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Know how I can remove the pdf?
Joe
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Joe O -
"Arthur [Gore], 1st Viscount Sudley later 1st Earl of Arran, PC
1st son of Sir Arthur Gore, 2nd Bt. MP, of Castle Gore, co. Mayo, by his wife Elizabeth Annesley, 1st dau. of Maurice Annesley, of Little Raith, co. Kildare
born
1703
mar.
10 Mar 1730/1 Jane Worth (bapt. 20 Dec 1704; widow of William Worth, of Rathfarnham; d. 20 Mar 1747), only dau. and hrss. of Richard Saunders, of Saunders Court, co. Wexford
children
1. Hon Arthur Saunders Gore, later 2nd Earl of Arran
2. Hon Richard Gore MP (bapt. 31 Jul 1734), mar., and had issue
3. Hon Paul Gore, mar. Anne Leonard, dau. of William Leonard, and had issue
1. Lady Joanna Gore, mar. (1) 29 Aug 1750 Philip Doyne, of Wells, co. Wexford (dsp. 11 Mar 1765), and (2) Michael Daly, of Mount Pleasant, co. Galway (d. 23 Oct 1808)
2. Lady Elizabeth Gore, mar. 15 Jul 1764 Sir John Evans later Evans-Freke, 1st Bt., and had issue died 17 Apr 1773"
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/arran1762.htm
Lady Joanna Gore? Lady Ann of Clontarf?
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The Right Honourable Lady Ann (nee Gore) Daly listed with R and P Gore her brothers in 1774 the other sister Lady Elizabeth (nee Gore) Evans-Freke died in 1773
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=NL5DAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=the+right+honourable+lady+ann+daly&source=bl&ots=xpX5sFtkAE&sig=7wOXeYOotXEQknQxzp8U0hjuIKc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrlo3ajpzKAhVlIKYKHSYXA-UQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=the%20right%20honourable%20lady%20ann%20daly&f=false
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Lady Johanna Gore and Michael Daly's issue from the Peerage:
http://www.thepeerage.com/p2010.htm#i20098
Their son Dennis Daly (named after Michael's father Dennis Daly, Micheal's mother is a Lady Anne De Burgh)
Then Denis Daly's daughter Katherine Daly
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I wouldn't be too embarrassed by the pdf,I went through the same thought process,and came to the same conclusion at one point,and,of course,it may still be correct(I convinced myself that the picture had the right features,particularly nose and mouth!).You can go back to your post for a period and "modify" if you want.
Regards
Roger
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Lady Joanna Gore was the daughter of an Earl - Arthur Gore, 1st Earl of Arran.
Family stories can become different over time, especially when heirlooms pass from a female side of the family to a male one.
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Hello Whiteout:
Thanks for all your info. I've got to take time to understand it.
At this point I've got to post the record I mentioned: it's the baptismal record of James and Jessie Burke's first child. Not only is his first name Francis, he also has "William" in his name. Lady Charlemont's husband was named Francis William.
Francis Xavier William Burke, born Dec. 2, 1851 (less than 8 months after James and Jessie's April 20 1850 wedding).
So you can all understand my incredible excitement at this discovery compared to my speculations of connection to Lady Charlemont: the passing of "Francis" across three generations in this context just screams confirmation. Then, the inclusion of "William" absolutely dumbfounded me. It was as if Lady Anne Caulfield was slapping me upside the head, telling me to put all doubts aside.
-------------
James Caulfield, 1st Lord of Charlemont has a son:
William Francis Caulfield, 2nd Lord of Charlemont.
Then John Burke and his wife have a son James Francis Burke, who brings to America the artifacts of "Lady Anne of Clontarf"
Then James Francis Burke names his first son Francis Xavier William.
----------
I am very interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
Joe
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Here's a better look:
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Did they name the first child after a church in Cincinnati? I think Francis Xavier is a Catholic saint(?)lots of churches and schools bear his name.
Regards
Roger
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The other thing that strikes me is the "Maria" again.From memory wasn't the entry on board the bark Falcon for a J Burke and M Burke,wich always made me a little sceptical,but perhaps it is another manifestation of Maria,whatever the significance.
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
Actually, the ship manifest listed Jessie Burke and M Burke.
And yes, Francis Xavier, John James, and Mary Hellen were all born in St. Xavier Church in Cincinnati.
The Falcon departed Liverpool and landed in Philidelphia in October 1850, which agrees with information James related in other records.
Joe
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Joe, have to say, this is the first I have seen on a child called Francis :-\ I have been worried about the gap in children, mentioned it a few times already...
Monica :)
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I can't say the naming of the first born,perhaps with some doubt over the duality of "Francis",helps to see if there is a traditional naming pattern at work.Both have a father John(?) with Jess(i)e's grandfather being a James(5th Lord Duffus-John being his illegitimate son).
Regards
Roger
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Monica:
Yes, I'm sorry I didn't point out your part in this discovery. Your pointing out that "childless" gap years ago was a great insight. It got me searching, but at that time the Archdiocese of Cincinnati shut down its archive while they moved it. It only recently re-opened, and Francis Xavier's birth record was the first result of my inquiry.
Thank you!!
Joe
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NLI
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Hi Hallmark. Good to see you back in the thread.
Not sure what to make of your post. Is this something I can access?
Oh, and Roger: in light of my current James - Francis - naming pattern interest, I went back and found your post near the bottom of page 27 very interesting.
Joe
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it's a manuscript one can read in the reading room!! Posting about its existence!
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Naming patterns can be unreliable as some Scottish families chose to name children after people they admired rather than ancestors
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Thinking about naming patterns would the name Katherine(or Catherine) appear in a first or subsequent daughter? Is this an indicator that I have the wrong family or that there is another daughter to be discovered?
Regards
Roger
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Joe O and Roger
I'm attaching a newspaper article which fleshes out the Daly family - particularly the marriages of Michael Daly's sisters, Margaret Daly to Charles Blake and Anastasia Daly to Sir George Brown. Margaret Daly's son Charles Blake then marries his cousin Georgina Brown (daughter of Anastasia Daly and Sir George Brown. Georgina is described as a "first cousin of James Caulfield - Lord Kilnaine"
So there is a connection to the Earls of Charlemont but through Anastasia Daly's marriage to George Brown. Have a read - it's pretty dense going !
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Thanks,Hasta - dense is hardly an adequate description! The Lady Anne Daly mentioned is the wife of Den(n)is Daly of Raford,I believe,different to the Lady Ann Daly,wife of Michael Daly of Mount Pleasant and Tokay Lodge,father of Den(n)nis Daly of the Galway Militia.
Regards
Roger
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The lack of a known Catherine in James Francis' family and the very specific date for Jessie Sutherland's birth not coinciding with the Jane of John Sutherland(Galway Militia)'s family cast definite doubt on my proposed solution.Your arguments re the names Francis,James William etc are obviously valid but equally don't have birth/baptismal records to support it under the names Burke,Caulfeild or Charlemont.
It is theoretically possible,but highly unlikely,that both strands are true,each yielding a Lady Ann(e) from the different sides of the marriage,allowing James Francis to reflect his heritage in naming the children.It might favour my solution for Lady Ann(e),with the caveats above,as this comes through the female side,in line with family legend.
Let's hope the nudging works and the portrait reveals some new evidence!
Regards
Roger
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Roger:
Actually, the ship manifest listed Jessie Burke and M Burke.
And yes, Francis Xavier, John James, and Mary Hellen were all born in St. Xavier Church in Cincinnati.
The Falcon departed Liverpool and landed in Philidelphia in October 1850, which agrees with information James related in other records.
Joe
were all born in St. Xavier Church???
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Letters mainly to Kean O'Hara, the younger, of Co. Sligo from the Rev. Toby Caulfield, with some letters by other members of the Caulfeild family, containing references to family and estate matters with some mention of parliamentary affairs, 20 Mar. 1696 - 27 Dec. 1762.
58 items Dublin: National Library of Ireland Ms. 20,388
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Newspaper cuttings relating to the Caufield family, Stewartstown, Co. Tyrone, 1864-1942. Correspondence relating to Lord Charlemont's resignation as Minister of Education in Northern Ireland, 1937
Belfast: Belfast Public Record Office, D. 1083 and other papers relating to him.
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Wills and administrations of Hon. Elizabeth M. Caulfeild, Hockley, Co. Armagh, Dec. 1878.
Belfast: Belfast Public Record Office, T. 864 (11-14)
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Thanks,Hasta - dense is hardly an adequate description! The Lady Anne Daly mentioned is the wife of Den(n)is Daly of Raford,I believe,different to the Lady Ann Daly,wife of Michael Daly of Mount Pleasant and Tokay Lodge,father of Den(n)nis Daly of the Galway Militia.
Hi Roger.
That line refers to Denis Daly of Raford and wife Lady Anne De Burgh, who were Michael Daly's parents.
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Hallmark:
Yes, all baptism records are from St. Xavier Church in Cincinnati.
Will be sending an inquiry on any other baptisms/deaths at the same church between 1850 and 1855.
Joe
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Will push this week to retain the services of the appraiser for the portrait.
Joe
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Lady Joanna Gore and Michael Daly married in 1766.
What year was their son Dennis Daly born?
So what precise year did their son Dennis Daly wed?
What year was Katherine Daly born?
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Denis Daly was baptised in 1767.I do not know when or to whom he was married nor when Katherine was born,but I believe she married John Sutherland in 1809.This would suggest an approx. date for the marriage(if there was one) and a birth of 1788.
Regards
Roger
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The only concrete fact I would like to add right now is that I only have ONE indication that Jesse Sutherland was born in Scotland, and that is from the US Census, which, unsupported, is not enough to go on. So, really, I have no idea where her family is from.
I've been going over information Roger sent me and posts from way back in 2014 and really, we are just turning over soil that we've plowed numerous times before, without any improvement in clarity regarding James Francis Burke's parents, or Jessie Sofia Sutherland's parents. This line of attack is a dead end. Sorry for jumping in without taking the time to figure that out in the first place. Until that portrait and ring get appraised, I'll hold my tongue.
I made email contact with the appraiser in Philadelphia, and we will try to make phone contact on Wednesday. Will keep you all informed of progress.
Thanks all.
Joe
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Hello to all my fellow researchers and kind contributors to this subject: Lady Anne of Clontarf, Ireland. Hope you are all well and finding answers to all those mysteries out there. I so miss being steeped in the pursuit.
Regarding Lady Anne, a smidgen of progress: my cousin near Baltimore, who has the portrait, has recently brought it to an archival framer to remove the work from the frame. An appraiser was also present, and unfortunately there were no marks/signatures anywhere to be seen.
Afterwards my cousin took the portrait to a paper conservator at Johns Hopkins Univ., with the goal of determining the age and origin of the paper. They determined that it was from the mid to late 18th century and of a type used in the UK, which supports our figuring that Lady Anne was born somewhere between 1752 & 1783.
During the many years of this quest to find Lady Anne's identity, my aunts and uncle who have treasured this story from their childhood have been passing away. Last fall my mom's older sister passed away, which leaves my mom, the youngest of four siblings, the last of those who heard their grandma Jesse Koplik (ne: Curtis) tell stories about their mysterious "royal" ancestor's portrait, ring, and dress. Can you imagine what that meant to a bunch of poor kids in a tenement during the depression, and the images it stirred in their heads?
In the last month, my mom was diagnosed with lymphoma, which motivated me to contact my cousin to finally have the painting looked at, to find out any extra information it might reveal. I so want to be able to find out who the heck Lady Anne really was while my mom is still around. I watch some of those ancestry programs on TV and get so jealous of the focus and resources they are able to devote to a subject. I wish I had the time and energy to do more myself, but my work and inability to stay up late at night - like I used to at the beginning of this journey - just won't allow it.
What am I trying to say here? Not so sure. I guess this seems like the end of the road and I'm sad and upset about that. On the scale of things that really matter in the world, not knowing who, exactly, Lady Anne is, is pretty low I guess, just a want on my part to find out something to satisfy my curiosity.
It has been fun, interesting, and I love how it's connected me with my living relatives and total strangers from all corners of the planet. I also am so grateful to have found and learned about ancestors from long ago and far away: their stories have given me a greater appreciation for
how good I have it, and a very clear perspective that their struggles and bravery have a lot to do with my great life. I aspire to invoke my ancestors whenever I think life is tough.
So, this isn't the destination I had imagined, but I gotta say, the journey has been something I never could have imagined. Thank you all for being so generous with your time, knowledge, and energy.
Regards,
Joe O.
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Hello again Joe
I haven't read through all 32 pages of this thread so this might have already been covered, but at one time you were looking for a Captain John Sutherland and a John Burke, gentleman, parents of the bride and groom on a marriage certificate.
If you go to this book
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7eYNAAAAQAAJ
on page 113 there is a list of officers of the Galway Militia (Ireland) in 1825 which includes a Captain John Sutherland and a Lieutenant John Burke.
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Hello Sue222:
So nice of you to dig up this intriguing information. Do you know anything about this document? Specifically, do you know what the dates are that follow each name? Are they birthdates? Couldn't find any explanatory information in the book.
Well lets see: James Francis Burke was born in 1829, so, if we suppose the Lt. Burke in this listing is JFB's dad, the Jan. 2 1803 date shown could be Lt. Burkes birthday, so it would support that.
Similarly, Jessie Sutherland was born in 1828, so again, if we suppose that this listing for Capt. Sutherland is Jessie's dad, the Sept 14, 1803 date shown for Capt. John Sutherland could be his birthday.
Sue! This could be HUGE! Really HUGE!
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Might there be some other military records that that you'd suggest that could tell us more about these two men?
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I'm fairly confident this is the (Adjutant) Captain John Sutherland(1771-1847) I've always proposed.The date I suspect is that of enlistment,not birthday,but I could always be wrong.
I also proposed that John Burke would be known to him through a military connection,and,without checking,this might have been the one I suggested.The difficulty,if I remember,was being confident as to which John Burke it was.(He was given as "gentleman" on JFB's marriage certificate).
Regards
Roger
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Maybe not yours...but
Marriage shortly to be had between SUTHERLAND Louisa Anne of Dublin city spinster eldest daughter of SUTHERLAND Hugho Alexander, Capt 10th Foot+ CROKER William Roberts of Dublin city, SUTHERLAND Louisa Anne in own right a sum of money secured on various lands
https://familysearch.org/search/film/008092798?cat=185720&i=-1
Vol 825
Page 513
Memorial 555448
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Source for above...
https://irishdeedsindex.net/mem.php?memorial=555448
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I agree the dates are probably enlistment, not birth. What is the sticking point at the moment - that we don't have a birth record for Jessie Sophia Sutherland so can't be sure that she is the daughter of Captain John Sutherland in the militia?
I am wondering if a will might help. Did anyone discover who Jessie's brothers and sisters were?
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It's true that a confident birth record was not found for Jessie Sophia.A number of other children can be found for Adjutant Captain Sutherland(but no will for him as far as I know).He in turn is acknowledged in the will of James Sutherland,5th Lord Duffus,as one of his many illegitimate children(reportedly at least ten!)
Regards
Roger
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I agree the dates are probably enlistment, not birth. What is the sticking point at the moment - that we don't have a birth record for Jessie Sophia Sutherland so can't be sure that she is the daughter of Captain John Sutherland in the militia?
I am wondering if a will might help. Did anyone discover who Jessie's brothers and sisters were?
The only Sutherland Will I see at NLI is this one but is is Dated for after it was proven...
.
.
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Hello Roger
I have seen the Lord Duffus will - in fact that is how I got into this thread a few years back. I got the will accidently when I was looking for another Sutherland. I wonder if any of John Sutherland's half-siblings mentioned John's children in a will. Perhaps, if they were illegitimate, they weren't close.
Do you have the names of Jessie's brothers/sisters?
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I believe that Adjutant Captain John Sutherland married Catherine Daly in 1809.As he was already approx. 38 at this time he may have been married before.
The baptismal records I have found are as follows,but this may not be a comprehensive list of children as,from memory,there were some reports of marriages or deaths of children not in this list(would have to reread the thread!)
Anne-Marie 1809
Eleanor 1812
Jesse 1824 (According to Joe,Jessie should be born circa 1828)
David 1827
Jane 1829(sometimes rendered as Jessie in Scotland?)
Regards
Roger
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As for the two soldiers John and John in the 1825 military listing possibly being JFB's and JSS's fathers, and the dates on the military list being their enlistment dates, does that math work out?
If they are enlisting in 1803, about how old are they at that time? Let's say 18.
Jessie was born in 1828, 25 years later, so in this scenario that would make soldier Sutherland about 43 at her birth.
JFB was born in 1829, 26 years after John Burke's enlistment, so at that time soldier Burke would be about 44.
So I guess it's certainly possible that these two gents are the dad's of James and Jessie.
Am I getting this right? I guess the soldier's age at enlistment is very critical to this conjecturing.
Or not... Males can father children way late in age.
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Here is the unframed Lady Anne. Can't believe that my aunt (or her mom) chose a metal oval matte that covered up so much:
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Amazing to see her now in her full glory :)
Monica
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Just for additoinal notes to all the research by Roger.
I believe that Adjutant Captain John Sutherland married Catherine Daly in 1809.As he was already approx. 38 at this time he may have been married before.
The baptismal records I have found are as follows,but this may not be a comprehensive list of children as,from memory,there were some reports of marriages or deaths of children not in this list(would have to reread the thread!)
Anne-Marie 1809
Eleanor 1812
Jesse 1824 (According to Joe,Jessie should be born circa 1828)
David 1827
Jane 1829(sometimes rendered as Jessie in Scotland?)
You are right Roger on possible name variants for Jessie. See www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Jessie.html
From your list above of children, Anna Maria is showing as...'MARRIAGES. Baltinasloe, John Richards, Esq., Ballintra-Gorcy, to Anna Maria, third daughter of Captain John Sutherland, Ballinasloe. 30 June 1841 - Dublin Evening Mail (I don't have full access to the British Newspaper Archives online).
Also a reference to the death of a son Richard on 2 November 1839 in the Northern Standard.
Monica
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As usual the data raises more questions than gives answers.
Were the two previous daughters(and any sons?) from a previous marriage?
If so,could Lady Ann come from this line?
Am I wrong with the marriage?
Is there a third(or more) marriage given the gap between 1812 and 1824
(would have to be another Catherine)
(as a militia man did he stay in Ireland throughout his career?)
Is there a different Captain John Sutherland yet to be found?
Regards
Roger
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I have tried to find data on the wife of John Sutherland,Captain and Adjutant,in case she provides the Lady Ann(e) connection.In the record of Jesse's birth she is given as Catherine Sunderland which I think in the nature of the records is her maiden name.Again this is proving problematic.
John Sutherland's death is in 1847,given as 76 years old.Catherine may well have not have been his first wife-again a convincing death record with age eludes me.There is an entry in the abstract of wills for John Sutherland in 1847.I do not know if this means a will still exists(and,if so how to obtain it).Most records were apparently destroyed in a fire.The will obviously pre dates Jesse's marriage but could perhaps provide other clues,perhaps about his wife.
Again, working through on Roger's notes from earlier.
And again, I don't have access as I subscribe to another site...
Findmypast show entries/images for John Sutherland 1847 in Galway. One in Wills & Probate and the other in church burials. Without looking at these, impossible to say whether they will have any info of substance.
Monica
PS: We have spent years with more questions than answers ::)
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Just adding another daughter to the list:
MARRIED. fn St. Mary’s church, Dublin, Thomas Call an. Esq. Balllnasloe, to Sarah Louisa, daughter of Captain J. Sutherland, Mount Catherine, county Galway, Adjutant ot the Galway Militia
18 February 1837 Limerick Chronicle
Monica
PS: A photo of Mount Catherine it seems, now renamed Brackernagh Lodge www.landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/property-show.jsp?id=1003
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:-\ As always, why is it we can find so much on so much, but not enough on a few key vital facts that we so need ::)
Monica
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I'd forgotten that there is a record of a letter dated 1818 in The Irish National Archives in which John Sutherland of Ballinasloe writes to Dublin seeking employment for his two sons in their sixteenth and sevnteenth years.I don't know whether Richard was one of them,but suggests an earlier,or different marriage for him.
Regards
Roger
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Findmypast show entries/images for John Sutherland 1847 in Galway. One in Wills & Probate and the other in church burials. Without looking at these, impossible to say whether they will have any info of substance.
Monica
PS: We have spent years with more questions than answers ::)
Is there a Reference No. for it?
It might be online.
Like the sample Marriage Agreement in Wills and Deeds I posted (which is online)...there may be other Marriage Agreements! Has anyone looked??
Has anybody checked these Deeds which are online??
Also the 1768 Will snippet I posted, has anyone looked to see who the Beneficiaries were??
.
.
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More examples
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSND-P9RW-2?i=107&cat=185720
I'm looking at a Surname closeby so just flicked a few pages don't have time to study them
.
.
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There were no references unfortunately on those two 1847 entries, Hallmark. They simply shows on the main Findmypast results index.
Monica
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Anne-Marie 1809
Eleanor 1812
Jesse 1824 (According to Joe,Jessie should be born circa 1828)
David 1827
Jane 1829(sometimes rendered as Jessie in Scotland?)
From this list of some of the children, looks like the Jane above is mentioned here www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=692607584120494&id=685566558157930 So, she is certainly not Jessie.
Curious about this ref there:
It all starts with Melanie’s great-great-grandmother Jane who, according to several censuses, lived in England but with birthplace Ballinasloe, Ireland....
Jane’s father was said to be John Sutherland, Captain of the Galway Militia...
The other key fact that had me completely convinced of Jane’s link to this aristocratic family was that in old age, perhaps when her mind was becoming addled, she declared on a census that she was born in Caithness. Now, if you look at any website concerning the lords of Duffus, Caithness is peppered all over the pages. Jane, the Irish girl now dying in England, clearly had some association with this place.
If this is Jessie's family, could this be a clue to her birth place in Scotland?
Monica
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Anne-Marie 1809
Eleanor 1812
Jesse 1824 (According to Joe,Jessie should be born circa 1828)
David 1827
Jane 1829(sometimes rendered as Jessie in Scotland?)
From this list of some of the children, looks like the Jane above is mentioned here www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=692607584120494&id=685566558157930 So, she is certainly not Jessie.
Curious about this ref there:
It all starts with Melanie’s great-great-grandmother Jane who, according to several censuses, lived in England but with birthplace Ballinasloe, Ireland....
Jane’s father was said to be John Sutherland, Captain of the Galway Militia...
The other key fact that had me completely convinced of Jane’s link to this aristocratic family was that in old age, perhaps when her mind was becoming addled, she declared on a census that she was born in Caithness. Now, if you look at any website concerning the lords of Duffus, Caithness is peppered all over the pages. Jane, the Irish girl now dying in England, clearly had some association with this place.
If this is Jessie's family, could this be a clue to her birth place in Scotland?
Monica
Wouldn't pay too much attention to all that waffle!!
"astonished to find birth details on a certain Irish website for Jane Sutherland in this village (population around 2500) in exactly the right year. Jane’s father was said to be John Sutherland, Captain of the Galway Militia. So I went off googling various things around those details, and came across a forum that described how John was one of the ten illegitimate children cited in the will of the 5th Lord Duffus of Scotland, ...."
Why not say where record was found??
Why not name the Forum??
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THE CONNAUGHT JOURNAL Galway, Thursday, February 5, 1824
MARRIED
At the Collegiate Church of St. Nicholas, Mr. M. Geoghegan of this Town to Miss Sutherland, daughter of Adjutant Sutherland, of the Galway Militia.
________________________
Added to previous post.... MARRIED. fn St. Mary’s church, Dublin, Thomas Call an. Esq. Balllnasloe, to Sarah Louisa, daughter of Captain J. Sutherland, Mount Catherine, county Galway, Adjutant ot the Galway Militia18 February 1837 Limerick Chronicle
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I'd forgotten that there is a record of a letter dated 1818 in The Irish National Archives in which John Sutherland of Ballinasloe writes to Dublin seeking employment for his two sons in their sixteenth and sevnteenth years.I don't know whether Richard was one of them,but suggests an earlier,or different marriage for him.
Regards
Roger
...and the Reference for this is????
NAI REFERENCE:
CSO/RP/1818/581
TITLE:
John Sutherland, Ballinasloe, County Galway: seeking employment for his two sons
SCOPE & CONTENT:
Letter from John Sutherland, Ballinasloe, County Galway, to William H Gregory, Under Secretary of Ireland, Dublin Castle, requesting situations of employment for his two sons. Relates that the boys, one in his sixteenth, the other in his seventeenth year, are ‘both good English scholars’.
EXTENT:
1 item; 3pp £ pages....has anyone got a copy of it??
DATE(S): 16 Jan 1818
DATE EARLY: 1818
DATE LATE: 1818
ORIGINAL REFERENCE: CSORP1818/S9
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NAI REFERENCE:
CSO/RP/1830/11
TITLE:
Letter from [Gen Sir Frederick Stovin], Military Secretary, Royal Hospital, Dublin, regarding the need for a proper police force in the town of Galway
SCOPE & CONTENT:
Letter from [Gen Sir Frederick Stovin], Military Secretary, Royal Hospital, Dublin, to Sir Francis Leveson Gower, [Chief Secretary], Dublin Castle, regarding the need for a proper police force in the town of Galway. Enclosing correspondence from Maj Gen Sir Thomas Arbuthnot, [assistant adjutant general], Athlone, [County Westmeath], and from Lieut Col William Sutherland, Galway, citing recent cases where the military was deployed for civil uses and providing copies of such requisitions, and with Sutherland stressing the current disturbed state of the town.
EXTENT:
3 items, 5pp
DATE(S):
2 Jan 1830- Jan 1830
DATE EARLY:
1830
DATE LATE:
1830
ORIGINAL REFERENCE:
1830/11
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NAI REFERENCE:
CSO/RP/OR/1830/340
TITLE:
Letter from [M] Bellew, [High Sheriff for County Galway], Dublin, fearing disturbances during the upcoming Galway election
SCOPE & CONTENT:
Letter from [M] Bellew, [High Sheriff for County Galway], Dublin, to William Gregory, [Under Secretary, Dublin Castle], advising to appoint Maj [George] Warburton, [Inspector General], and Col Sutherland, 5th Regiment, as magistrates for County Galway; fearing there will not be sufficient independent magistrates for the disturbances the election will bring. Also, note by [Archdeacon Thomas Singleton, private secretary to Hugh Percy, 3rd duke Northumberland, Dublin], in the negative.
EXTENT:
2 items; 5pp
DATE(S):
12 Aug 1830
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The 1824 marriage is for a Mary Sutherland.I can find a record for a Mary Sutherland,address Wexford Militia,Co. Kilkenny,father John Sutherland,baptised Jan 1808,mother Honor(surname not recorded).No birth date.
There is also a July 1803 record for a baptism of Catherine Sutherland,father John Sutherland
(militia),mother Charlotte(surname not recorded),Co.Kilkenny.
Perhaps these are the two daughters(illegitimate?) before Anna Maria.
Regards
Roger
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The 1824 marriage is for a Mary Sutherland.I can find a record for a Mary Sutherland,address Wexford Militia,Co. Kilkenny,father John Sutherland,baptised Jan 1808,mother Honor(surname not recorded).No birth date.
There is also a July 1803 record for a baptism of Catherine Sutherland,father John Sutherland
(militia),mother Charlotte(surname not recorded),Co.Kilkenny.
Perhaps these are the two daughters(illegitimate?) before Anna Maria.
Regards
Roger
And the person with the waffle has...."astonished to find birth details on a certain Irish website for Jane Sutherland in this village (population around 2500) in exactly the right year. Jane’s father was said to be John Sutherland, "
Whatever year that was "on a certain Irish website "!! ?
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Here is the unframed Lady Anne. Can't believe that my aunt (or her mom) chose a metal oval matte that covered up so much:
Slightly off topic ...
Although I have read some of this thread I have not followed it very closely, so may have missed earlier comments about the painting (apologies if this is the case) but a couple of observations if I may?
I disagree that the oval mat has covered up anything significant, in fact I think it may have presented the image rather well, depending on the finish of the mat and the accompanying frame of course.
Although no status can necessarily be gleaned from the painting (apart from her well to do appearance), it was not painted by a professional nor is it particularly well executed. Painting was a popular hobby so it may have been painted by a family member or friend - but definitely an amateur.
This does not help with your query though. :)
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Hi everyone:
Have been consumed with work and weekend festivities for our son's 17th birthday. I've got lots of catching up to do but just a note of thanks to all of you for contributing your time and thoughts to this topic. You're sweet.
Joe
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I may,only may,have found a family connection between John Sutherland,adjutant captain of the Galway Militia and one of the proposed candidates for Lady Ann(e)-Ann(e)Caulfeild nee Bermingham,
2nd Countess Charlemont.Whether it is relevant in the context of the tradition of passing the portrait is another matter.
Ann(e) Bermingham of Rosshill is connected to the Browne family,original owners of Rosshill,by virtue of Eiizabeth Browne,sister of Peter Browne,marrying John Bermingham.I haven't worked out the precise relationship of Ann(e),born 1780,to this John,born circa 1668,via her father William,but the relationship seems to exist
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=724
The Peter Browne referred to above had a son John,(1st Earl of Altamont),who married Ann(e) Gore,daughter of Sir Arthur Gore,2nd Baronet.
This Ann(e) Gore's brother Arthur(1st Earl of Arran) had a daughter Lady Joanna Gore,herself a candidate,previously proposed by me,by virtue of her being known as Lady Anne Daly,following her marriage to Michael Daly of Tokay Lodge,Clontarf Dublin.
Katherine Daly,the granddaughter of Michael by his son Denis,married Captain John So(u)therland in 1809.
I'm sure it would be useful to try to fit dates to the characters,and draw a mini family tree,but my head hurts(again)!
Regards
Roger
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Rogers:
That's very interesting. I'm going to sketch out a tree with that one myself. Thank you.
Joe
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Ruskie:
Thanks for your input. You are supporting previous speculation on the artist not being a professional, so despite your statement that your post "does not help", it sure doesn't hurt.
Joe
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Hallmark, MonicaL, Sue222, Despair:
I've finally gone over all your posts since Jan. 31st. You've added three pages to this topic, and when I try to wrap my head around the information you've dug up and are trying to put together, I get dizzy. I don't know how I could properly thank you for all you are doing. Please, if you are ever in Chicago, let me know.
Regards,
Joe
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Whatever the distant relationship between the reasonably contemporary John Sutherland(born 1771) and Ann Bermingham(born 1780),I can't see it yielding the simplicity of the "first daughter" lineage of the story.
I am still drawn to the Johanna Gore/Daly line.
I have managed to find a portrait of Johanna Gore on a private tree,and am seeking the permission of the owner to publish it.As I am hopeless at recognition,I can't tell whether it supports or refutes the argument.It certainly looks a portrait of someone older than "Lady Ann of Clontarf",which doesn't help.(I'm fairly sure I haven't published it before!)
Patience is required.
Regards
Roger
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Patience is required.
We have plenty of that ;)
Monica
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I now have the portrait (bdelow) and permission.No matter how hard I try I can't convince myself she is Lady Ann of Clontarf even given the difference in ages of the ladies in the respective portraits,and the "amateur" nature of the handed down portrait.The nose looks too aquiline and the chin too weak(?).
Regards
Roger
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Just bringing the two images together to help with any comparisons:
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I was expecting to say there is no resemblance whatsoever, however, looking at the two images side by side, surprisingly, I think there are some similarities.
I think the major difference is the chin. She looks slightly double chinned in the painting and fine chinned in the image with the bonnet. That may be due to lack of skill of the amateur painter or the fact that she was younger and more full faced when that was painted. The sitter in the second picture is looking down a little so the angle is different.
Brows are slightly different but that could be explained by fashions* or the amateur painter trying to make her look more glamorous.
Still, though there are differences I think they could be the same person.
*Added: By "fashions" I mean that the painter may have depicted features in a particular way as it was a fashionable look at the time, rather than the sitter physically possessing those attributes. For example, a high and fine brow might have been in vogue whereas in reality the sitter may have had lower brows as depicted in the second image, so the painter may have conformed to what was fashionable.
Using that logic I suppose it could be the case that all images of ladies of the time had a similar 'look' about them. They probably did. :)
It is often difficult to determine if two photographs are of the same person, and it is doubly difficult when you are looking at drawings, prints or paintings when there are so many other variables to consider. :-\
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The mouths and the set and look of the eyes is where I see possible similarities.
Monica
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I was prepared for dismissal,it's the hope that's difficult to bear....
Regards
Roger
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Well, for what it's worth, what can be said is that the comparison doesn't rule out the possibility, and neither does it prove it. Sure didn't hurt to try.
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Joe, a note for work in progress...
I saw this today and thought of you https://blog.findmypast.com/cincinnati-and-chicago-sacramental-registers-online-for-the-first-time-2515133174.html
Maybe something new to found there later this year.
Monica
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The Galway Militia from 1793 https://www.jstor.org/stable/25550195
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Thanks Monica. Nice of you to let me know.
What a surprise. It's been years since I accessed the Catholic church archives of Cincinnati. There was one archivist there, just one, for many years. She was great: I'd send an actual paper letter requesting info, include a check, and she would dig through the catacombs ;-) unearth some old document, make an actual paper copy, and snail mail it back to me. Then they closed the archives, for reorganization purposes, supposedly. This is the first I've heard of them being accessible again.
Lady Anne is back in her frame on my cousin's Wall of Fame.
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Lady Ann is looking fab there with the family :) Quite at home ;)
Monica
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Bitterly cold and snowy...
A addition for the day for our searches:
Subject: Lord Duffis a native of the Scotch Islands /Shetland or Hebridies group
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:23:59 EDT
Dear Sir,
I have a family tree written in the late 1800's that shows a Col John Sutherland of Ballinasole, Galway,Ireland.The adjutant of his majesties Galway Regiment also known as the 11th Regiment.He was the younger son of Lord duffis and married Christain Joyce ,Daughter of Oliver Joyce a member of the tribes of Galway,when his first wife died he married LadyVeasy Daly, daughter of Lord Daly who was the brother of Lord Viscound Dunsandle.The record shows also a relative of his an William Sutherland [Officer] serving with Lord Townsed who left a will dated 1770.The records show John Sutherland, born 1771 and died 1847 in Galway,Ireland.This Col John Sutherland is my ancestor and if you would have any information on Lord Duffis I would be greatful.
Thank you.
Claude D. Horne De Fiacha
www.duffus.com/sundaynews12_19_99.htm
Monica
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,
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I have to say I don't recognise the relationships as described in the latest addition.
As far as I know John Sutherland of the Galway militia was only ever Adjutant Captain,never Colonel,though I do agree withe dates(1771-1847).(One thing that has always concerned me is that John Sutherland is not described as "deceased" on Jessie Sophia's marriage).It always seemed reasonable that he would have had a prior marriage to the Daly one I have ascribed to him,as he would have been 38 at the time,though I have not found evidence of the Christian Joyce marriage,and,much more importantly,I don't recognise the Daly line of this snippet.Can anyone identify Lady Veasy Daly?
Regards
Roger
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You have the garbage that causes confusion....
e.g. he married LadyVeasy Daly, daughter of Lord Daly who was the brother of Lord Viscount Dunsandle.
Instead of using PROPER NAMES
he married LadyVeasy Daly, daughter of Lord Daly who was the brother of Lord Viscount DALY OF Dunsandle.
then at least one can follow things much easier!!
ANOTHER..
He was the younger son of Lord duffis
WHICH ONE?? USE A CHRISTIAN NAME TOO!!
LORD ? DUFFIS
"any information on Lord Duffis I would be greatful." WHICH ONE????? ? ? ? ? ?
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Daly OF (Dunsandle & Carnakelly)
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=876
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I don't recognise the Daly line of this snippet.Can anyone identify Lady Veasy Daly?
Regards
Roger
To answer that you have
National Library of Ireland: Pedigree of Daly of Killymer, Co. Galway, c.1750 --c. 1850. Genealogical Office: Ms. 176, pp.125-6
listed under Archival sources on http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=876
click on link you find 1388 estate records citing this source.
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/refsource-show.jsp?id=1
email address there for NLI to query cost of same!
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I'm fairly sure it's a different line to the one I ascribed.
Dunsnandle line:-http://thepeerage.com/p23360.htm#i233595
My attribution:-http://thepeerage.com/p2010.htm#i20100
(Katherine Daly,daughter of Denis Daly,in turn son of MIchael Daly of Tokay Lodge)
The marriage of Captain Southerland(sic),Galway Militia to Miss Daly of Tokery(sic) Lodge,1809
Walkers Hibernian Marriages 1771-1812,p414
https://ia800202.us.archive.org/26/items/irishmarriagesbe02farr/irishmarriagesbe02farr.pdf
Regards
Roger
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Same family
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It would seem that John Sutherland became Michael Daly's legal representative on a number of legal disputes and issues following Michael Daly's death in 1808:
www.rootschat.com/links/01lo7/
www.rootschat.com/links/01lo8/
I wish we could get sight of this family tree mentioned in the other link for John Sutherland. Wishful thinking for sure with details nearly 20 years old. Didn't stop me trying out that email though...and just waited for the bounce back ::)
Monica
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Plenty of Sources to get Pedigrees etc have been posted.
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Southerland
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I'm fairly sure it's a different line to the one I ascribed.
Dunsnandle line:-http://thepeerage.com/p23360.htm#i233595
My attribution:-http://thepeerage.com/p2010.htm#i20100
(Katherine Daly,daughter of Denis Daly,in turn son of MIchael Daly of Tokay Lodge)
The marriage of Captain Southerland(sic),Galway Militia to Miss Daly of Tokery(sic) Lodge,1809
Walkers Hibernian Marriages 1771-1812,p414
https://ia800202.us.archive.org/26/items/irishmarriagesbe02farr/irishmarriagesbe02farr.pdf
Regards
Roger
MIchael Daly of Tokay Lodge is obviously part of the Galway ones.....
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Yes,but not the immediate line of the "Dunsandles" as per the additional snipppet of MonicaL.
The Denis Bowes Daly referred to in the legal acton with James Kirwan,is not the Denis Daly(Lt.in Galway Miiitia),son of Michael,father of Katherine.
Regards
Roger
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OK.
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I used to have this dream... no, a nightmare, where I showed up for my the first day of my freshman level college course, and found that I had somehow registered for a graduate level course. To make things worse, I had slept through the entire semester, it was finals!
That's how I feel reading over the last couple of pages.
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;D Me too. Thankfully, Roger and Hallmark are our resident experts on this history and sources ;)
Monica
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Me three!
Regards
Roger
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It is stuff like this that needs to be looked for...
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-3772-P?i=584&cat=185720
John of Dublin, in Galway Militia
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I can cleanly trace my mother's maternal ancestors to Jesse Sutherland,
Jessie??
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Owens to Stavers
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Fascinating finds,Hallmark.
Slightly perplexed by the Jessie Sutherland reference document,as I thought Captain John Sutherland died in 1847(from memory).Will have to look more closely and go through the whole record set to see if there are any more references,or have you done that already?
Regards
Roger
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Fascinating finds,Hallmark.
Slightly perplexed by the Jessie Sutherland reference document,as I thought Captain John Sutherland died in 1847(from memory).Will have to look more closely and go through the whole record set to see if there are any more references,or have you done that already?
Regards
Roger
?
Not sure what his death 1847 has to do with it.
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Fascinating finds,Hallmark.
Slightly perplexed by the Jessie Sutherland reference document,as I thought Captain John Sutherland died in 1847(from memory).Will have to look more closely and go through the whole record set to see if there are any more references,or have you done that already?
Regards
Roger
I know there are dozens of Sutherland entries in the Deeds but haven't time to look at them all.
I think there was a mention of a Gore/Sutherland Marriage, not sure if anyone has even looked to see if there was a Marriage Agreement/Settlement registered.
There was a Will snippet I post for William (?) not sure if anyone has checked to see if there is an entry in the registers or not.
The references to letters for 2 sons was posted, not sure if anyone has sent for them or not.
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Just to fill in data on the "sisters" mentioned.
Esther Sutherland,baptised March 1811,Rathkeale,Co. Limerick (Father-John,Mother-Catherine)
Married Alexander Broadfoot,St. Marylebone Westminster June 1828
and probably
Elizabeth Sutherland,baptised June 1794,St Marylebone,Westminster,(Father-John,Mother-Susanna)
Married William Stavers,Saint James,Westminster,June 1810
and possibly,
Susa Sutherland,died 1803,Westminster.
(and as I have said before John Sutherland then marries Catherine Daly in 1809)
I will concentrate on trying to see if there is reference to John Sutherland's will(an Index of Wills suggests there was one dated 1847),in he hope there is further mention of Jess(i)e.
Regards
Roger
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.....and it looks like Sarah Balfe could be another sister and/or niece,as there is a baptism of Sarah Balfe to Jame Balfe and Sarah Sutherland,Meath 1818.However I can't find a baptism or marriage for this Sarah Sutherland.
Regards,
Roger
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Hello Roger and Hallmark. Your continuing vigilance is noticed and appreciated.
Joe
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Well the Dunsandle lot were obviously in Clontarf..... so could Ann be Lady Ann Daly??
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It looks to me as if her full name is Anne Elizabeth Charlotte Nugent.As she is born in 1839 she seems too young to be the candidate of a portrait taken abroad in 1850,though she is related to the Lady Ann Daly,subject of my speculation.
Regards
Roger
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Isn't hallmark's Jessie Sutherland the half-sister of John Sutherland (father of Jessie Sophia)? I seem to remember the names Broadfoot, Balfe, etc. from the will of James Sutherland, Lord Duffus.
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Isn't hallmark's Jessie Sutherland the half-sister of John Sutherland (father of Jessie Sophia)? I seem to remember the names Broadfoot, Balfe, etc. from the will of James Sutherland, Lord Duffus.
Oh she's not mine! I never met her.... ;D
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Spring day....fresh air and all that!
We have James Francis Burke's birth day from his gravestone as being on 20 July 1829 in Dublin.
I have found this entry from the St Andrew's Dublin RC baptisms database for 22 July 1829, baptism of a James Burke, father Jno (John) and mother Eleonor. Witnesses a James and Catherine Burke.
Looking through these registers, entries are minimal in terms of detail, as these type of entries often can be.
Dates would fit for it to be James Francis. Eleo(a)nor and its variants as we know could also fit with the name of Ellen/Helen etc. www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=eleanor
Thinking here also of the birth for James and Jessie of their daughter Mary Ellen in Cincinatti in 1855.
Monica
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Interesting find MonicaL - and I'm going away for two weeks in the morning - I expect it to be solved by the time I get back!
Regards
Roger
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It looks to me as if her full name is Anne Elizabeth Charlotte Nugent.As she is born in 1839 she seems too young to be the candidate of a portrait taken abroad in 1850,though she is related to the Lady Ann Daly,subject of my speculation.
Regards
Roger
Might have been sent to her in 1870......... ;D ;D
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... I expect it to be solved by the time I get back!
We can dream ;D
Enjoy your break!
Monica
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Apologies for not noticing these April posts. The RootsChat email went unnoticed until just now. Thanks you everyone for staying with this.
Hope spring is kicking in where ever you are. It has been very reluctant to warm up here in Chicago.
Regards,
Joe
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Apologies for not noticing these April posts. The RootsChat email went unnoticed until just now. Thanks you everyone for staying with this.
Hope spring is kicking in where ever you are. It has been very reluctant to warm up here in Chicago.
Regards,
Joe
Miserable weather here!!
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Michael Daly of Tokay Lodge, was the son of Dennis Daly(1700-1791) and Lady Ann de Burgh(Burke).
I think Hallmark got it right.
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That is how I read it..................
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These are the Raford Daly's. Michael Daly(d. 1808) and whose will is in this thread, was the second son, so, didn't inherit Raford. Michael owned quite a bit of land, but his principal residences were Mt. Pleasant, which is overlooking the lake in Loughrea, Galway, and Tokay Lodge, which appears to be part of Phoenix Park, Dublin, or just on the edge.
His first wife died in 1797. A year before his death, he married a Mary Kelly, and he gave her a life interest in two of his properties, Hollyhill and Ballydavid. These are both about 4 miles SE of Loughrea town. I wonder if the Kelly suing is the second wife's son or relative?
Yesterday, I found a book discussing these two properties and written in the 1850s. It stated Hollyhill was the residence of a P. Kelly, and Ballydavid was the residence of A. Gore Daly. The P.Kelly is likely a relative of the second wife. The A. Gore Daly was a shocker, because there was never any reference to such a person in my research on this family.
This led to various clues to that will hopefully move the ball forward for me and your Sutherlands.
A. Gore Daly is short for Arthur Gore Daly. So he probably went by the first name Gore. He died in 1863 at about 67 years old.
There was a marriage of a Gore Daly and a Hamilton Lamy Dec 17, 1792 in Dundee, Scotland. She was baptised May 17, 1770 in Eassie and Nevay, Scotland to John Ramsay Lamy and Agnes Hamilton. The formal family name is Ramsay L'Amy and are listed as minor gentry.
There is a death in Ballinasoe, Galway, for perhaps this Gore Daly Sr. in 1803. I think this is a candidate for the father of Katherine Sutherland. The senior branch of the Raford Daly's where residing in Scotland at the time (Portpatrick), so maybe too many Denis's. Denis Gore Daly.
There is a Hamilton Daly baptised in Cork City in 1817 to John Daly and Ellen Sullivan.
A week before he died in 1863, A. Gore Daly converted to Catholicism. A big sardonic article in the Dublin paper on this. About 10 priests and bishops participated in the funeral.
His will's primary beneficiary was Jane Amelia Daly(wife? sister?). She died in Dublin in 1868. Born approx. 1805. Her primary beneficiary was Ann Marie Daly.
A notice was posted in the Dublin newspaper after Arthur Gore Daly's death, stating his sister Julia, of New York City was applying to be administrator. Apparently, he had resided in the USA, but nobody had seen hide nor hair of his. He went home.
There is an Arthur Gore Daly who died in San Francisco in the early 1900s. Possibly his grandson.
In India, there was a Catherine Sutherland, wife of Sgt. John Sutherland, who died in 1820. There is a Capt. John Sutherland who died in India in 1840. There is a Catherine Sophia Sutherland who married someone in India in 1847. There are a number of other Sophia Sutherlands in India.
I descend from Daly's/Kelly's from Galway, so this lawsuit has always interested me, but we were Catholic and sea captains. But it is getting more plausible.
There is a William L'Amy Daly born 1799 in Ballinasloe , who become an assitant surgeon in the Navy and who married and stayed in South Africa.
I am looking a Timothy and a Denis. Sea captains. If they descend from Gore Daly who died in 1803, they might have had to move to the coast. Whatever happened to Hamilton L'amy Daly?
Or perhaps Michael Daly had some children by Mary Kelly in the decade after Joanna Gore's death. In which case, I may revive this lawsuit.
Anyways, why don't you post a picture of Lady Ann? We would love to see her.
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Well hello Greg0220:
Please excuse my late reply to your contribution. Thank you so much for chiming in to the parentage of Jesse Sutherland. Very curious as to what motivated a newcomer to devote thought and time to the topic.
I've attached the unframed portrait for you to see.
Happy new year to all. Hope you are well and making progress on your own family's story. My work keeps me from devoting any time to Lady Anne. I will designate my work email as the default so that when there is a new post, I will get it and respond to it right away.
Thank you all for the amazing work you've done to help with Lady Anne.
Regards,
Joe
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Greg0220, I've taken the time to read through your post and can clearly see your connection and interest to the Sutherland topic. And again, thank you.
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These are the Raford Daly's. Michael Daly(d. 1808) and whose will is in this thread, was the second son, so, didn't inherit Raford. Michael owned quite a bit of land, but his principal residences were Mt. Pleasant, which is overlooking the lake in Loughrea, Galway, and Tokay Lodge, which appears to be part of Phoenix Park, Dublin, or just on the edge.
For some reason, probably mistakenly, I thought it was here..... don't know why!!
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Grrrr.... ;D
Here
m
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As usual, Hallmark is correct! Thank you for posting this.
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What year did Bram Stoker live there?
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https://www.ireland.anglican.org/news/7569/bram-stokers-baptism-in-clontarf
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Oh, I thought you meant Bram Stoker lived at 21 Lower Gardiner St.
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Michael Daly of Tokay Lodge, was the son of Dennis Daly(1700-1791) and Lady Ann de Burgh(Burke).
I think Hallmark got it right.
m
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Hello Hallmark. Nice to know you are alive and kicking.
Haven't dipped my toe in this pond for awhile. Will have to dive in to understand the significance of the posting of this beautiful document.
You are very nice to stay on this trail, or trial, as is appropriate.
Regards,
Joe O
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Was working on the Binghams...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768883.0
and they intertwine with the same Dalys/Kellys/Burkes/Nugents etc of your lot plus the Binghams were in Killester and extremely near Clontarf passing Tokay on their way.
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Grrrrr....forgot abour the Gore/Dalys, came actoss them today!!
Will check them "soon"
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What year did Bram Stoker live there?
Stoker lived in the Crescent, Clontarf which is the curved road on map posted
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I see that the records for St Francis Xavier,Cincinnati are now online at FindMyPast.I've done a trawl throught the 1850s and likewise can only find a Mariam Helenam born to Jacobus and Jessie(transcribed as Teresa!) Sudderland.
My only new thought is that Helen may be the name of Jessie's grandmother.This source has Capt John Sutherland's mother as Helen McBeath.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sutherland-4008
Regards
Roger
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Well it is a given that the Daly's married Bingham's Burkes etc.....one of the same Bingham's on King James's Pedigree, this one a cousin of "your Dalys"
The Daly's/Kelly's I think are the same Kellys rattling around Galway etc on the last 2 or 3 pages on the other thread.
I know the Pedigree is small but nothing else of interest on it.
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This thread has a life of its own for sure ;)
On the Sutherland side, with your mention Roger and link you have included.
One of the daughters of James Sutherland and Helen McBeath shows as Rachel. This is likely her entry in 1784 from FS: www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYD3-S45 The original parish entry on Scotlands People may well add/confirm more details.
I think Helen Beath may show as Captain James Sutherland's servant in 1791-2 in Birsay Orkney https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls/female-servant-tax-rolls-1785-1792/female-servant-tax-rolls-volume-26-1791-2-counties-m-w/79
For those with a subs to Ancestry, there is this limited tree showing on there for Rachel www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/32192457/person/28139379541/facts
It does include a link to Captain James Sutherland's will www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311454-00383/280041?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/32192457/person/20307170539/facts/citation/1162137685209/edit/record This must be where the reference comes from in the wikitree linked above to Captain John being a 'natural son' of Captain James.
Captain James Sutherland looks to never have married. From memory now, will have to retrace, there was a Jessie Sophia Sutherland showing in early censuses connected to this group. The name Jessie Sophia is certainly a rare combination so makes possible links to "our" Jessie Sophia look promising with all the info so far.
Monica
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Isn't hallmark's Jessie Sutherland the half-sister of John Sutherland (father of Jessie Sophia)? I seem to remember the names Broadfoot, Balfe, etc. from the will of James Sutherland, Lord Duffus.
Was this ever investigated??
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Don't think it was?
From 1851 in Regent's Park, London:
Esther Broadfoot 64 head b. Orkney, Scotland
Jessie Sutherland 55 sister b. Orkney, Scotland
Esther S Broadfoot 19 daughter b. Gibraltar
Margaret Hunter 35 servant
Fanny Ward 23 servant
Esther Sutherland married Alexander Broadfoot in London in 1827 and died in the Camden area on 13 January1861. Her daughter Ester Sutherland Broadfoot was executor to her will.
Monica
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In the 1861 census in Kensington London, niece Esther with aunt, following the death of her mother. All showing as unmarried:
Jessie Sutherland 65 b. Scotland
Esther S Broadfoot 29 niece b. Gibaltrar
Margaret E Broadfoot 57 niece vis. (not clear) b. Scotland
and 3 servants
Monica
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This is where I saw the reference to a Jessie Sophia Sutherland. From 1841 London:
James Sutherland 65 merchant b. Scotland
Elizabeth Sutherland 47 b. Scotland
Thomas Sutherland 13
Willm P Sutherland 12
Jas AL?? Sutherland 8
Elizabeth Sutherland 6
Donald D Sutherland 5
Jesse Sophia Sutherland 4
Mary I Sutherland 4
John Jas Sutherland 14 b, Scotland
and 2 servants
Monica
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This Jessie (or Jessy/e as it is mostly written as) died at the young age of 28 in 1865 in the Wandsworth area of London and was buried in the All Souls Cemetery, Kensal Green, London. Brother James Paton Sutherland was executor to her will.
In 1851, Jessie is with her family and living with her uncle, Thomas Sutherland (born c. 1788 in Scotland) and wife Janet in the Tottenham Court area of London.
Thomas and James, brothers/half-brothers...or cousins...to Captain John Sutherland?
Monica
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My head is ssssswwwimmmmiiinggg with all this and I feel I cannot possibly add to this particular conversation. FWIW, and maybe just to feel I'm still part of this effort, I'm going to go over basics:
James Francis Burke and Jessie Sophia Sutherland were married at the parish church in Clontarf April 20 1850. The record shows both as "of this (UCI) Parish", so it appears they were both residents of Clontarf. No other definitive record to show them arriving or living there.
A few months later, they sail from Dublin to Liverpool to Philadelphia, arriving on October 3rd aboard the Bark Falcon. Went immediately to Cincinnati.
Birthdates of children that I know of
(might have been a Francis born Dec. 2, 1851).
1855, OCT. 5TH MARY HELEN BURKE
1858 ALICE BURKE, (my great grandmother's mother)
1861, AUG 29 or 27 JOHN JAMES BURKE
1862 JOHN CHARLES BURKE
That's incredible news that the St. Xavier archive is now online. Would love to search it.
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There is an entry in the abstract of wills for John Sutherland in 1847.I do not know if this means a will still exists(and,if so how to obtain it).Most records were apparently destroyed in a fire.The will obviously pre dates Jesse's marriage but could perhaps provide other clues,perhaps about his wife.
Regards
Roger
None Registered.
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It's been a while,but I haven't given up.
There may be some merit in the following line of enquiry:-
I have found a record for the marriage in 1809 for John Southerland(sic),Galway Militia, to "Miss Daly of Tokery Lodge".The record is in Irish Marriages 1771-1812,Walkers Hibernian Magazine available at www.archive.org.
Roger
No Marriage Agreement registered
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Did anyone chase up McLoughlin's Deed letting the land at Tokay to Daly?
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My head is ssssswwwimmmmiiinggg with all this and I feel I cannot possibly add to this particular conversation. FWIW, and maybe just to feel I'm still part of this effort, I'm going to go over basics:
James Francis Burke and Jessie Sophia Sutherland were married at the parish church in Clontarf April 20 1850. The record shows both as "of this (UCI) Parish", so it appears they were both residents of Clontarf. No other definitive record to show them arriving or living there.
A few months later, they sail from Dublin to Liverpool to Philadelphia, arriving on October 3rd aboard the Bark Falcon. Went immediately to Cincinnati.
Birthdates of children that I know of
(might have been a Francis born Dec. 2, 1851).
1855, OCT. 5TH MARY HELEN BURKE
1858 ALICE BURKE, (my great grandmother's mother)
1861, AUG 29 or 27 JOHN JAMES BURKE
1862 JOHN CHARLES BURKE
That's incredible news that the St. Xavier archive is now online. Would love to search it.
It only proves they were living in Clontarf Parish for 15 days prior to Marriage.
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I'm not sure what is implied by "not registered" for both the 1809 marriage and 1847 will.
Regards
Roger
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https://www.historyireland.com/volume-23/registry-of-deeds/
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From the 1700s many of the records document mortgages, as property was leveraged to raise money for new business ventures; the creation and dissolution of business partnerships; or even defining the assets and ownership of a business.
Other deeds include marriage settlements, and in some instances legal agreements of separation.
The Registry also memorialised many wills, especially where there were overseas assets or where designated heirs lived outside Ireland.
Wills were commonly memorialised if they were contentious, i.e. bequests to a mistress or to natural children born outside marriage.
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It only proves they were living in Clontarf Parish for 15 days prior to Marriage.
Thanks for that clarification.
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I still reckon it is Lady Anne Burke
Lady Anne de Burgh was the daughter of Michael Bourke, 10th Earl of Clanricarde and Anne Smith.
She married Denis Daly, son of Denis Daly and Anastasia D'Arcy, in 1735
She died in January 1794
Children of Lady Anne de Burgh and Denis Daly
Denis Daly
Letitia Daly
Anastacia Daly Margaret Daly d. 1825 Michael Daly b. c 1744, d. 23 Oct 1808
....but will we ever know??
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While I can understand the logic in support of Lady Anne de Burgh(or possibly her daughter in law,Lady Joanna Gore,aka Lady Ann Daly),I have accessed portraits of both in a private tree,with the owners authority.While they are both portraits later in life,both feature such strong nasal aquiline features that I seriously doubt it could be either of them.
Later today or tomorrow I will publish some data,which,while not solving the puzzle,will add to the Sutherland family as per the 1844 deed identified by Hallmark.Again,there is an anomaly at the heart of it!
Regards
Roger
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Grrrr.... Hyacinth Daly is a Tokay too when Michael's daughter Ann married Eyre.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ4-C9MN-X?i=541&cat=185720
Michael's Will that Sutherland is administrating could be interesting!
Still have my money on Ann Burke. James Francis Burke's ( Mother/Gran?? ) ;D
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While I can understand the logic in support of Lady Anne de Burgh(or possibly her daughter in law,Lady Joanna Gore,aka Lady Ann Daly),I have accessed portraits of both in a private tree,with the owners authority.While they are both portraits later in life,both feature such strong nasal aquiline features that I seriously doubt it could be either of them.
Later today or tomorrow I will publish some data,which,while not solving the puzzle,will add to the Sutherland family as per the 1844 deed identified by Hallmark. Again,there is an anomaly at the heart of it!
Regards
Roger
is it Lady An O'Maly ?? ;D ;D ;D
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Just wanted to add now...before I log off...a snip from the 1827 will for James Sutherland who we have now earmarked (I think!) as a likely father to Captain John Sutherland. This section is the part that refers to Captain John Sutherland, natural son to James:
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Thanks Monica but a little fuzzy to easily read for me.
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Sorry,Hallmark,only just got your joke-getting slow in old age!
Regards
Roger
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I think I have resolved what I thought was an"an o'maly".
The transcriptions for the 1828 marriage of Esther Sutherland to Alexander Broadfoot(St. Marylebone) has both parties aged 21.This initially led me to believe it was Esther,DAUGHTER of Captain John Sutherland,baptised 1811 in Rathkeale.However,the 1841 census with a Jessie Sutherland present,found by MonicaL,suggests she is a generation older.Given Alexander dying in 1837 aged 57,the transcription probably means "at least 21/of full age" and Esther is actually the SISTER of Capt.John Sutherland,as per the WikiTree,as therefore ,also,is that Jessie.
This is consistent with the WikiTree I referred to.It should be noted that Helen Sutherland also marries a Broadfoot(William) in 1800 on Orkney(home to Captain John's father James,Lord Duffus).
Regards,
Rogrer
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I think that is The Clothier ones in Limerick I posted at some stage.
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Joe, I have gone back and reposted the image from the will for James Sutherland. Hopefully a little clearer to read. Captain John Sutherland comes up in line 4 of this snip.
From this (and I am bad at reading this old wills!) am I right in seeing that Caption John Sutherland, previously living in Ireland now in Caithness Scotland may have had a second born daughter called Isabella?
This will was written I believe in 1824. If the correct Captain John Sutherland, he was in the right place for Jessie Sophia, daughter, to state she was born in Scotland.
Monica
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Roger, Esther Sutherland Broadfoot gets many mentions in her father's will.
James had many natural children, just adverse to marriage it seems!
Monica
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I've been trying to trace the family of Captain John Sutherland of the Galway Militia,and while I have had moderate success with some of his children,I struggled to find his parentage(perhaps more important) and now I know why.
He was one of ten acknowledged illegitimate children of James 5th Lord Duffus and Lady Mary Hay,with whom he eloped.(I think she had been married at 16 or 17 to the commander of the regiment,in which James Sutherland was then captain.They were divorced within a year).
The will of James Lord Duffus is available at The National Archives-not the easiest of reads in the handwriting of the time,but in one of the margins he specifies a "natural daughter" Jessie(which his son is to repeat) and in the body of the will "....Captain John a(?) Sutherland,my natural son,adjutant to Lord Clancarty (next word difficult),of the Irish Militia,presently residing at Ballinasloe...."
Roger, many moons ago you had posted the detail re James Sutherland's will. Just adding here again to fit with the snip from it above.
Monica
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Joe, I have gone back and reposted the image from the will for James Sutherland. Hopefully a little clearer to read.
Hmmmm.... "A" for effort, but it actually seems worse.
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So Who is "Duke of" giving out Deeds?
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I'd forgotten that there is a record of a letter dated 1818 in The Irish National Archives in which John Sutherland of Ballinasloe writes to Dublin seeking employment for his two sons in their sixteenth and sevnteenth years.I don't know whether Richard was one of them,but suggests an earlier,or different marriage for him.
Regards
Roger
...and the Reference for this is????
NAI REFERENCE:
CSO/RP/1818/581
TITLE:
John Sutherland, Ballinasloe, County Galway: seeking employment for his two sons
SCOPE & CONTENT:
Letter from John Sutherland, Ballinasloe, County Galway, to William H Gregory, Under Secretary of Ireland, Dublin Castle, requesting situations of employment for his two sons. Relates that the boys, one in his sixteenth, the other in his seventeenth year, are ‘both good English scholars’.
EXTENT:
1 item; 3pp £ pages....has anyone got a copy of it??
DATE(S): 16 Jan 1818
DATE EARLY: 1818
DATE LATE: 1818
ORIGINAL REFERENCE: CSORP1818/S9
Did anyone find out names of sons?
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I think that is The Clothier ones in Limerick I posted at some stage.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-MQ6T-K?i=524&cat=185720
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Hi Roger:
All I am sure about is that Jessie Sutherland was born Sept. 3 1828 in Scotland, and that she reports at least once that her parents John and ?? were born in Scotland.
My family's oral history says that "Lady Anne" is supposed to have been Jessie Sutherland's great grandmother. My work has shown "Lady Anne's" birth year to be from 1752 to 1783.
So let's work things out for the Lady Anne de Burgh and lineage you cite:
Lady Anne de Burgh marries Denis Daly, who beget:
Michael Daly, b. 1744, marries Lady Joanna Gore, who beget:
Denis Daly, later Lt. Galway Militia, marries unknown wife, who beget:
Katherine Daly of Tokery Lodge, who marries John Southerland, Galway Militia, in 1809, and beget (perhaps):
Jessie Sophia Sutherland, born Scotland 1828, who marries James Francis Burke in 1850
Wellllll….. looking backwards from this point, it works out that Lady Anne de Burgh would be Jessie's great great grandmother.
Problems:
1 generation different than oral history.
Katherine Daly not born in Scotland
Can't discount this connection based on a few discrepancies and my lack of sleep. Would love to hear more of what you dig up.
Regards,
Joe
Looks to be that way......
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Hello All:
Hope you and your families have fared well regarding the Coronavirus.
Went to my mom's the other day and out of the blue she dropped these two watches on me: one that I am certain is Jessie Sutherlands, and the other (silver) watch.... Who knows? Might be Lady Ann's?
Does anyone know a good website to submit these to, in order to find out any sort of info that might give us an additional clue regarding Jessie Sutherland?
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Good to see there continue to be new finds, Joe :)
Suggest you google antique watch appraisal and see what you find online such as this site www.worthy.com/appraisal/watches/antique
Monica
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Hi Monica:
Thanks for the suggestion. Good to hear from you.
Joe