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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: J Wall on Saturday 04 December 10 01:39 GMT (UK)
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I am currently researching an ancestor named John Wall who lived in Bristol and the surrounding area. Currently the only document that we have for the person is a sheep skin showing their indenture which appears to be more of an apprentice contract. The sheep skin shows John Wall, son of Emma Wall, indenturing to John Mabyn or Maybn to learn the arts of haberdashery, drapery, and silk (something...I can't really make out the specifics of silk work). Emma Wall is said to reside in Staple Hill or Stapleton which I think are suburbs or boroughs of Bristol which is listed as part of Gloucestershire.
What I am looking for is twofold. I would really like to find out who his father is and when he emigrated to Canada (Chatham or Windsor, Ontario). Starting with the information we have on his father, we are presuming his father might have died in combat due to a sword that has been in the family for several generations. I have queried information on the sword which can be found here: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1135268#post1135268 To summarize that discussion I have found out that the sword is an Infantry Officer's Sword Pattern 1822 circa 1837-1845. Between the sword and the date of indenture (1848/49) which only lists Emma Wall and not John Wall's father I am assuming that John Wall's father died in combat or by other means while serving in the military. I would have thought that John Wall's father would have been the natural preference for someone to sign a legal document for indenture. Maybe I am wrong? As for emigration to Canada, I am not entirely sure when this took place, but am pretty sure that it occurred sometime between 1860 and 1900. One of my cousins has been looking up information on Ancestry.com, but to little or no avail. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to look up emigration records between Bristol and Canada? Could someone please help me?
Thanks!
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Hi
I can see a John WALL on the 1871 Canadian Census, birthplace England, aged 35, occupation Merchant. Wife Eliza and children Emma 4, William 2 and John 1, all born Ontario.
Does this sound like it might be your man??
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hello Karelee,
Yes! That does indeed sound like the John Wall I am researching. His wife is Eliza Wall, maiden name Winters. Funny, it sounds like he named his daughter after his mother. William and John are incredibly common names in my family as well. As far as merchant, that sound correct as well. He owned some sort of general goods store it appears.
-John
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John
Do you have all the Canadian Census info for John and his family?? If not I would be happy to pass it on to you. Also I can see a couple of baptisms for children of John and Eliza, do you have those as well??
Not seeing a marriage or immigration record for him yet.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Karenlee,
The Canadian Census information that I have for John and his family is very sparse and patchy. Usually little more than the basic: John was married to Eliza. I would love to get all the information you can give me! I'm very appreciative! I wish I could give you more information on his immigration, but I have no idea where his boat would have landed. Although, I would guess he left from Bristol.
-John
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No luck so far with immigration.. but will keep trying.
Census information as follows...
1871 Census Canada Ontario Kent Chatham
Roll C-9892 Page 31
WALL
John Male Married 35 Born England Weslyan Methodist Merchant
Eliza Female Married 30 Born Ontario Weslyan Methodist
Emma Female Unmarr 4 Born Ontario Welsyan Methodist
William Male Unmarr 2 Born Ontario Weslyan Methodist
John Male Unmarr 1 Born Ontario Weslyan Methodist
1881 Census Canada Ontario Kent Chatham
Roll C_13280 Page 52
WALL
John Male 47 Born England Methodist Church of Canada Merchant
Eliza Female 41 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
Emma Femle 14 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
William Male 13 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
John Male 11 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
Maud Female 9 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
Newton Male 7 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
Rush Male 6 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
Mary Female 1 Born Ontario Methodist Church of Canada
1891 Census Canada Ontario Kent Chatham
Roll T-6346
WALL
John Male 56 Marr Born England Both parents born England Methodist Retailer of Dry Goods
John Son Male 20 Unmarr Born Ontario Father born England Mother born Ontario Presbyterian Retailer of Dry Goods
Eliza Wife Female 50 Marr Born Ontario Father born England Mother born USA Methodist
Newton Son Male 17 Unmarr Born Ontario Father born England Mother born Ontario Methodist Salesman Dry Goods
Rush Son Male 15 Unmarr Born Ontario Father born England Mother born Ontario Methodist
Emma M Dau Female 24 Unmarr Born Ontario Father born England Mother born Ontario
Maud M Dau Female 19 Unmarr Born Ontario Father born England Mother born Ontario
Mary B Dau Female 11 Unmarr Born Ontario Father born England Mother born Ontario
Not seeing either John or Eliza on the 1901.
Karenlee
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Karenlee,
Wow! That's absolutely amazing! Thank you very much for providing me with the T number as well. I really like the idea of being able to find sources...maybe even get prints of those sources. By 1901 the family might have migrated to Cincinnati, Ohio. I'm pretty sure that's where they migrated too, however it could have been Cleveland, Ohio. It would sound like the right time period. Although, I have no idea if John and Eliza might have migrated with their children.
Thank you!
-John
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Birth Record Ontario Kent Chatham
28th Feb 1872
John WALL
Male
Father = John WALL
Mother = Eliza M WINTER
Father's Occupation = Merchant
Informant= Father
Registered 23rd March 1872
Birth Register Ontario Kent Chatham
10th Sept 1873
Newton Birrell WALL
Male
Father = John WALL
Mother = Elizabeth Maria WINTER
Father's Occupation = Merchant
Informant = Father
Registered 19th Nov 1873
Birth Register Ontario Kent Chatham
20th Feb 1880
Mary Beattrice WALL
Father = John WALL
Mother = Eliza Maria WINTER
Father's Occupation = Merchant
Informant = Father
Registered 17th May 1880
Marriage Register Ontario Kent Tillbury? Centre
16th Sept 1891
John WALL Jnr 21 Bachelor of Chatham Merchant Father = John WALL Mother = Eliza WINTER
Octavia STEWART 21 Spinster of Tillbury?? Centre Father = James STEWART Mother = Marian SMITH
Witnesses William E WALL of Cleveland Ohio and Flora M CAMPBELL of Chatham Kent
Will see what else I can find for you
Karenlee
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Marriage Register Ontario Kent Chatham ( Methodist )
28th Sept 1892
Walter William SCANE? 26 Bachelor Lawyer of Chatham Father = E. H. SCANE and Mary A SCANE
Emma M WALL 25 Spinster of Chatham Father = John WALL Mother = Eliza WALL
Witnesses John W SCANE of Chatham and Maud WALL of Chatham
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1900 Census USA Ohio Cleveland Cuyahoga Ward 19
Roll T_1255 Page 2A District 85
Hough Avenue
WALL
Eliza M Head White Wid Female Born May 1841 Canada (English ) aged 60 Father born England Mother born New York Immigration in 1895 No Occupation
Newton B Son White Unmarr Male Born Sept 1873 Canada ( English ) aged 26 Father born England Mother born Canada Immigration in 1894 Dry Goods Salesman
Rush J Son White Unmarr Male Born May 1875 Canada ( English ) aged 25 Father born England Mother born Canada Immigration in 1893 Bookeeper
Mary B Dau White Unmarr Female Born Feb 1880 Canada ( English ) aged 20 Father born England Mother born Canada
A. K. RICHARDS Boarder White Unmarr Male Born Sept 1875 Canada ( English ) aged 24 Both parents born England Immigration in 1896 Floor Walker
Cannot see Eliza after that
Karenlee
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State of Ohio Deaths
Cuyahoga
WALL Eliza M 24th Dec 1914
Volume 1517
Certificate 65474
Newton B WALL 23rd Nov 1927
Volume 5488
Certificate 62337
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This gives us a fair bit of information to work with...
1920 Census USA Ohio Cuyahoga Cleveland Ward 20
Roll T_1366 Page 4B District 403
1873 East 90th Street
WALL
William E Head Marr White 51 Immigrated 1890 Naturalised 1895 Born Canada Father born Canada?? Mother born Canada President Oil Co
Alice H Wife Marr White 34 Born Connecticut Father born Scotland Mother born Connecticut
Louisa Dau Unmarr White 14 Born Ohio Father born Canada Mother born Connecticut
DRYSDALE Harriet E Mother in Law Wid White 65 Born Connecticut Father born Connecticut
1867 East 90th Street
HART
George L Head Marr White 46 Born Ohio Both parents born Scotland Broker Oil Co
Beatrice Wife Marr White 39 Immigrated 1895 Naturalised 1913 Born Canada Father born England Mother born Canada
George Son Unmarr White 5 Born Ohio Father born Ohio Mother born Canada
Mary Maud Dau Unmarr White 3.5 Born Ohio Father born Ohio Mother born Canada
STEVENS Maud Sister in Law Wid White 47 Born Canada Father born England Mother born Canada
WALL Rush Brother in Law Unmarr White 45 Born Canada Father born England Mother born Canada Secretary Treasurer Oil Co
Karenlee
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Kent County Marriage Register R.G.8 ( 1858 - 1869 )
1866
WALL John
Winter Eliza M
Volume 69
Page 17
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I can see John WALL in the UK Census of 1851 as an apprentice Draper to John MABYN at 53 Wine Street Christchurch Bristol Gloucestershire.
He is aged 16 and birthplace is given as Gloucestershire Stapleton.
Karenlee
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Cross-referencing to another thread on this family to avoid duplication http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,499769.msg3565879.html#msg3565879
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John's mother, Emma can be found in 1851 at her sister's:
Reference HO107/1944/180/5
Address Staple Hill, Mangotsfield (Staple Hill is both a road and a suburb!)
HOBBS, Elizabeth Head Unmarried F 49 Annuitant b Stapleton Gloucestershire
WALL, Emma Sister Widow F 45 Annuitant b Stapleton
Then in 1841, I found this:
Reference HO107/377/4/3
Address Staple Hill, Mangotsfield
HALE, William 75 All born in county (Glouc)
HALE, Aquilla 74
WALL, John 5
WALL, Emma 14
HOBBS, Elizabeth 35
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See the other thread for more detail on John's mother Emma and father Robert
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,499769.msg3565879.html#msg3565879
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N.B. : I'm posting information regarding Emma Wall and possible father Robert Wall on the other board/thread
Yes, the John Wall you see on the UK Census of 1851 is indeed my ancestor named John Wall who was apprenticed (the document says indentured though) to John Mabyn at 53 Wine Street, Bristol, Gloucestershire. I have no idea what the Christchurch part means. So, if he’s aged 16 in 1851 he would have been born around 1835?
At some point after his indenture he moved to Kent County, Ontario, Canada and in 1866 married Eliza Maria Winter. Ref. : Kent County Marriage Register R.G.8 ( 1858-1869 ), Volume 69, Page 17.
Canadian Census Records
The 1871 Census of Canada has himself, Eliza (his wife), Emma 4, William 2, and John 1. Ref. : C-9892 Page 31.
The 1881 Census of Canada has himself, Eliza (his wife), Emma 14, William 13, John 11, Maud 9, Newton 7, Rush 6, and Mary 1. Ref. : C_13280 Page 52.
Lastly for the Census records, in 1891 the house hold consisted of himself, Eliza (his wife), John 20, Newton 17, Rush 15, Emma 24, Maud 19, Mary 11. Ref. : Roll T-6346
It looks as if William had moved to Ohio by this point.
Canadian Birth Records
John Wall born on 28th Feb. 1872 to John Wall and Eliza Maria Winter.
Newton Birrell Wall born on 10th Sept. 1873 to John Wall and Eliza Maria Winter.
Mary Beattrice Wall born on 20th Feb. 1880 to John Wall and Eliza Maria Winter.
Canadian Marriage Records
16th Sept. 1891 John Wall marries Octavia Stewart. I’ve noticed that they have Octavia down as a spinster. Would that have been the equivalent of a bachelorette back then?
28th Sept. 1892 Emma M Wall marries Walter William Scane.
US Census Records
The 1900 Census has Eliza (head), Newton 26, Rush 25, Mary 20 and boarder A. K. Richards 24. Ref. : Roll T_1255 Page 2A District 85.
The 1920 Census has William E. Wall (head), Alice H (Wife), Louisa (Daughter), Harriet E Drysdale (Mother-in-Law). Ref. : Roll T_1366, Page 4B, District 403, 1873 East 90th Street. From this it shows William immigrated to the US in 1890 and was naturalized in 1895. This is thus why he is not shown in the 1890 Canadian Census. The other entry for 1920 shows George L Hart (head), (Mary) Beatrice (Wife), George (Son), Mary Maud (Daughter), Maud Stevens (sister-in-law – formerly of the Wall household?), and Rush Wall (brother-in-law). Ref. : Roll T_1366, Page 4B, District 403, 1873 East 90th Street (?)
US Death Records
Eliza M Wall died 24th Dec. 1914. Ref. : Volume 1517, Certificate 65474
Newton B. Wall died 23rd Nov. 1927. Ref. : Volume 5488, Certificate 62337
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J,
Not much compared to what you've been told but whilst helping another Chatter with trade directories I had a look for Mabyn in the Mathews's 1851 directory via the Gloucestershire Trade directories link in the Resources Messages Index - first hit was a success I think.
Regards
Chas
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Christ Church would be the parish of Bristol.
Censuses were very keen on parishes!!
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Chas,
Sorry, but I do not see the information that you are talking about. I searched for "Gloucestershire Trade directories" on Rootschat.com search, but I didn't find anything mentioning "Matthews's 1851 directory". Maybe I just overlooked something. Sorry.
KGarrad
Ah, a parish! Great! Thank for that.
...now if only I can find out when John Wall migrated from Bristol to Canada.
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]I can not believe I found this discussion. My name is Leslie Ann Johnstone "maiden Name". I am John Wall and Eliza Melissa Winter's great grand daughter. John was born in Bristol England. It is my understanding a sword was brought to Canada when John Wall arrived prior to 1852 (guessing based on birth year and marriage). He married Elisa (again I must get the exact dates...too excited to look now). I will explain how I heard about the sword, and from whom later. I have a habit of trying to cover too much at one time. I will, that is, if anyone is still interested.
My grandmother, born in 1881, was the youngest of seven children. Beatrice Mary Wall married my maternal grandfather in 1912. My mother was born August 24Th, 1916. She spent her summers in Kent, Chatham Ontario, but grew up in Cleveland Heights, Ohio.[/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
I know so much now. It took time to iron out some of the oral history, but what happened on this side of the Atlantic has now been validated with official documents. The Walls were a tight group. My mother never met her grandparents, John and Eliza Wall. They passed before she was born. She heard much of Eliza and little of John. I finally learned he passed in Cleveland, Ohio before 1910. John Wall, and a few years later his wife, was returned to Chatham Ontario and buried in Maple Leaf Cemetery. The census records showed different birth places for John. It was the wording I believe. Origins and birth place would have thrown me too. But, the information was collected because the US and Canada were just starting to grow. Johns place of birth was noted as England or Canada on the rolls for different years. His place of origin was always England. But the children signed his and some signed each other's death certificates. All said John Wall's birth place was Bristol, England
I will give you as much as you'd like, but I first noticed "John's" post asking about Wall Petroleum.
In the second half of the 19Th century oil was the big thing. Trains to transport the commodity were as important as the oil itself. One of this countries wealthiest entrepreneurs took every opportunity to create a monopoly. He bought the allegiance of the railroads and put many companies out of business. Standard Oil was King. . Rockefeller ruled the economy and citizens soon resented him deeply. His home was Cleveland Ohio.
The eldest Wall son, William Edgar Wall, was fascinated with the competition, the anger that grew regarding Rockefeller, and saw opportunity. Clark Oil Company was in operation, in spite of Standard Oil in 1900. Uncle Will came to Cleveland and with all his involvement in the city, and all the Oil Associations he was involved with in the Northern US, it was not long before he became the president of Clark Oil. He is listed in the Who's Who of Cleveland. I have the book online. It has the pictures of these successful men and there titles. Again, I'd love to share it. Will had three brothers and three sisters. I know that one brother, also named John Wall (no middle name) worked as a salesman for the petroleum industry. I imagine this was Will's company.
I will explain all of that, the history which would give a time frame reflecting the Wall family crossing Lake Erie from Canada to settle in Cleveland. It is all about oil. I can tell you a lot about the personalities of the siblings and their children; John Wall named his first son John Wall and his second William Wall. I've had brief contact via research with William's son, my second cousin. He explained, his brother had the sword, but did not know how or never had time to explain. I'll try to reconnect. He would be fascinated. I am so hopeful someone will see this.
I do believe the Clark Brothers sold out, perhaps to William Wall. But, William passed in 1934. The depression was raging and the wealth he had secured for his entire family, the doors and opportunities that he opened where closing. By 1934, the only living siblings were one brother and one sister. John Wall and my Grandmother. Uncle Will owned the home beside his. Beatrice Mary Wall Married George Lacsellas Hart, and that is the home where my Uncle and Mother were born.
The entire family, however, did not move to Cleveland. Emma was the first born. She married Walter Scane, Jr and remained in Chatham. Maud also married and remained in Canada. John and Eliza came to Cleveland when they no longer could live alone. I finally realized John passed here. I had the certificate, but have to find it again. Eliza died Christmas night 1913. She passed in her sleep. But, apparently before retiring (this group did not mind a bit of spirits to get a party going) Eliza and another were jumping rope.
I've written so much. I will read the attachments and other options section. I know this info has been out here without any response for a long time. I hope someone will receive it. All my family, except for my son and relatives I've never actually heard speak, are gone. I imagine the connection is distant by now. But, it is a connection all the same. I don't even know if I gave anyone enough to spark interest. I will wait. And thank you! Leslie