RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: Red Ash on Tuesday 14 December 10 23:39 GMT (UK)
-
Samuel Hoggard was born around 1824 in Budby.
He married Susannah Bartholemew, all saints near skegness.
I am looking for his birth date (there are other Samuels born near by but not in Budby)
Also looking for him in 1841n 1851 census.
Also looking for his marriage date.
Samuel was a photographer and in 1861 he is in York with wife and children.
In 1871 1881 he is in East Coatham. Redcar.
His son John Edward Hoggard has been traced.
I tracked one daughter to boarding school in Manchester (seemed very early for
Girls to be educated away from home - is this normal? I think it was 1871.
Any clues as to who his parents might be would be gratefully received.
Red
-
according to the beta site on family search england marriages 1538-1973
there is this marriage
groom; samuel hoggard
grooms father; john hoggard
bride; susannah bartholomew
brides father; thomas bartholomew
date of marriage 14th feb 1869
place of marriage; st.judes,st.pancras,middlesex
are you sure it was susannah bartholomew that he married
i can see that he is married to a susannah in 1861
the one above who married in 1869 was a photographer
his father's occupation was a smith
susannahs fathers occupation was farmer
-
Thank you so much. Sometimes doing the tree you can find more puzzles than answers!
This has to be the couple as they named their son John and samuel was a photographer.
Susannah's father was Thomas although an earlier census says he was a tailor and shopkeeper.
Also in 1881 John, their son, was lodging with a smithy in Scotland! Which goes a little way towards explaining that link.
Susannah was named as formerly Bartholomew in their childs birth certificate
However, why would this couple marry so late after their children were born? And why in London ?
Did it give their ages?
In 1861 it shows they had a daughter Dinah Matilda born 1860 but I found no f
urther trace for her. Maybe she died and this prompted a marriage?
It was 1881 when n Lily (16). Was at boarding school.
I need to also find Susannah's date of death.
Since posting this I notice there is a family tree for Thomas Bartholomew posted on line. Says Thomas was born about 1796 in Sotby?, burial 3/10/1873 Occupation Postmaster/Grocer/Tailor
Married Elizabeth Knott who was born 1801 in Broughton married about 1823 in Wrawby?
Thomas's parents Thomas b about 1172 burial 8/11/1839 married Elizabeth Gowshall born before 11/91770 christened 10/9/1770 in Fotherby married 14/3/1797 in Sotby burial 21/1/1856 - farmer.
Thanks once again.
-
Hi Red Ash,
The IGI has a Submitted Record which needs to be checked;
Samuel HOGGARD, Christened 30 March 1824, Edinstowe, Nottingham, England
Parents;
John HOGGARD and Ann ARMSTRONG
Now from what I have found Edinstowe is very near to Budby about 2 Miles.
I havent Census access til this weekend but if no one else has helped I will look then for Samuel 1841/1851.
There is also further Submitted info;
John HAGGARD, Parents WILLIAM Hoggard and Elizabeth ASHMORE
John Married Ann Armstrong 05 June 1820, Edwinstowe, Nottingham
Trish :)
-
Thank you. Now things are starting to come together. I have seen Sanuel from edwinstowe but dismissed it but as Budby is tiny a child my need to be registered to Edwinstowe.
I have copies of an A,, Hoggard in 1851 and 1861 living with sister Mary Armstrong - so now I can link those to the tree. Thank you for this.
Their lace of birth is Budby. Samuel or other chikdren are not with them..
Red
-
Ok there is a Christopher HOGGARD born c 1822 Budby living in Nether Hallam, Yorks in the 1871 Census.
IGI has Submitted Record of him being a Child of John/Ann also Christened Edinstowe.
My Net download is at its limit so I cant actually look at the image.
-
Interesting as I have copies of census records with Hoggard in my file and there was a Christopher Hogard aged 35 in 1841 in Kneesal near Edwinstowe. I did not think there was a link until now.
-
We are not really sure but it looks promising. Someone obviuosly in the past has looked at Parish records but hopefully someone can confirm what we suspect.
Back soon, think I have found John in 1841 but have been waiting for image to load ::)
-
Ok. I can check ancestry later today.
Red
-
1841 Census
HO107/849/3/Blyth
Blyth West,
Blyth, Nottinghamshire
John HOGGARD, 50, Blacksmith
Charles, 24, Blacksmith
Ann, 20
Sarah, 1
All born in County
-
Years ago I saw these people but did not connect them but now it is so clear. Wonder where wife is?
Thank you
-
If you look for Charles Hoggard born c 1817 Blyth in the 1851 Census John and Ann are with him;
John Hoggard born c 1787, Swaiston, Notts
Ann Hoggard born c 1789, Barlbine, Derbyshire
Hopefully we are onto something here.
Johns Occp is right.
Trish :)
EDIT I first I thought she had died ( Wife Ann) but may have been visiting someone in 1841 or John has remarried between 1841/1851???
-
If you dont mind I will leave it here for tonight.
Talk to you later.
Trish :)
-
here is the marriage in full
name; samuel hoggard
age; of full age
status; bachelor
occ; photographer
father; john hoggard
fathers occ; smith
address at time of marriage; 22,argyll square
bride; susannah bartholomew
age; of full age
status; spinster
father; thomas bartholomew
fathers occ; farmer
address at time of marriage; same as groom
date of marr; 14/2/1869
place; st.jude church,grays inn road,camden,middlesex
witnesses; joseph carter and caroline carter
both bride and groom signed their names
do not read to much into the witnesses they were also witnesses at 2 other weddings at this church one on the 24/1/1869 and one on the 13/2/1869
-
death index
name; dinah matilda hoggard
y.o.r. 1865
qtr; jul/aug/sept
dist; guisborough
county; yorkshire-north riding
vol; 9d
page; 322
-
could this be susannahs death
name; susannah hoggard
y.o.r. 1921
qtr; jul/aug/sept
dist; guisborough
county; yorkshire-north riding
vol; 9d
page; 510
age at death; 90
est birth year; 1831
-
i see that in 1891 they are in coatham which is in the guisborough reg dist.
which makes the deaths posted seem a good bet
-
there is a death of a samuel hoggard born 1824 in 1895 in stockton reg dist is this him
only there is a susannah hoggard born 1831 in middlethorpe lincolnshire living in stockton reg dist in 1901 she is a widow
-
I do not like to see the death of a young child but assumed she had died.
It is the right Samuel who died in Stockton but I had not realised Susannah was living there in 1901.
So we now have
Samuel born 1824 married to Susannah Bartholomew after their children were born - in 1869 when he was 45 andSusannah about 40.
Samuel's brothers are Charles. B 1817. And Christopher B 1822.(Who worked in Sheffield as a butler in 1871)
Their parents are John Hoggard and Ann Armstrong.
Now I have looked at the census records. They are confusing me.
1841: HO107-849-3 Blyth West has John aged 50 with Charles - son - aged 24. Both blacksmiths, with Charles's wife Ann and their daughter Sarah - aged 1.
1851: HO107-2122-364 Blyth has John and Ann (born in Derby?) aged 64 and 62 with Charles aged 34 and his family.
1861: Blyth has John Hoggard aged 77 - widow - norn in Edwinstowe- and Charles's family
But then
1861 Kneesal, Ann Hoggard born in Budby, aged 70 living with sister .Mary Armstrong..so the other John and Ann in the census's are not correct?
.
The deaths of Susannah and Dinah are the right family. Thank you.
-
My previous reply does not appear to have been lodged.
Many thanks for all the work but I am a bit muddled as to which person is definately linked when it comes to the census records.
My problem is:
If John Hoggard
Born: 1787 –Swaiston, Notts
Occupation: Blacksmith
Married Ann Armstrong - the census's do not match....
1851 - John and Ann in Blythe living wiht Charles
Blacksmiths
1861 John 77 - wid - blacksmith - blythe
but
1861
Ann Hoggard (wid) aged 70 in Budby living with sister Mary Armstrong
(so this seems likely)
I think there is another 1851 census with Ann and Mary living together but can not locate the copy.
Therefore - what is the connection of the Blythe family?
-----
------
John Hoggard (Haggard)
Born:
Occupation:
Married: 5/6/1820—Edwinstowe
Elizabeth Ashmore
Born
Occupation: Blacksmith
........
Their son
John Hoggard
Born: 1787 –Swaiston, Notts
Occupation: Blacksmith
1851 staying with Charles in Blythe
married
Ann Armstrong
Born: 1789—Barlbine
Occupation: Laundress?
Their sons:
Charles Hoggard
Born 1817 –Blyth
Occupation:
Blacksmith
(father and mother lived with him)
Another son:
Christopher Hoggard
Born 1822
Occupation: Butler
Living in Nether Hallam 1871 as Butler EndCliffe Grange
Another son
Samuel Hoggard
Born 1824
Christened: 30/3/1824—Edwinstowe
Occupation: Photographer
Married: 14/2/1869
St. Jude’s St. Pancras, Middlesex
his son:
John Edward Hoggard born 1861
daughter Dinah matilda born 1860 died 1865
John Edward married four times:
Annie Burnicle
Maud Elizabeth Musgrave
Ada Ellen Blake
Margaret Egan (Victoria Australia)
-----------------------------------
-
here is the 1851 with ann and mary together
HO107/2135/167/10
anne hoggard age 59. b. budby. occ. laundress.(widow). head
mary armstrong age 57 . b. budby. occ. formerly cook. (unm). sister
living at;budby,notts
-
That is the one... Thank you.
So the other family in blyth I assume are not connected .... ?
Difficult when there are many similar names in the same area.
-
Hi there
I have a passing interest in Samuel Hoggard, photographer as I'm trying to date a photograph that I might buy that's posted on a well known auction site.
The photographer's name is Hoggard and he's listed at Linthorpe Road, Middlesbrough.
I've read your posts with interest and wonder if you know when he (or perhaps a son?) was at the Middlesbrough address?
Many thanks for any help!
-
Hi there
I have a passing interest in Samuel Hoggard, photographer as I'm trying to date a photograph that I might buy that's posted on a well known auction site.
The photographer's name is Hoggard and he's listed at Linthorpe Road, Middlesbrough.
I've read your posts with interest and wonder if you know when he (or perhaps a son?) was at the Middlesbrough address?
Many thanks for any help!
Interesting that you have seen a photograph by Hoggard.
Samuel Hoggard was in York in 1861 and moved to Coatham by 1871. I am not sure if he would have worked out of the road you mentioned. He died 1895.
His son, John Edward Hoggard was registered as a photographer under the name of Jonathan E Hoggard. He seemed to have worked in Scotland in 1881 when he was 20, so he may have worked briefly for a few years prior to this date in Coatham, Redcar and then he was back there again in 1882 - 1890. Then he seems to have moved around (Sheffield 1890, Whaley Bridge 1893-95, Australia 1895 - 1933).
I once saw the dates and places where they worked and I can not find the list at the moment. I think it was at the Library on the Ancestory website and trades. There is a website Victorianphotographers as well which lists them but to find the places where they worked and dates you have to pay something.
If I find the list I will let you know.
If anyone else has any information about these two photographers it would be interesting to know.
:)
-
John Edward is my great grandfather, I am so pleased to track him down. he did not marry my great grandmother, Maude Musgrave, but they had a daughter in 1890, Maude Herman Hartley, nee Paul (brought up by her aunt). I have a photo of him from around 1890. there is a web of family stories, mostly made up to protect mother and daughter, but one that rings true is that the wife (Annie Burnicle) approached her when she was walking out with the baby and reproached her – result she ran off to her sister in Sheffield. who knows! this is the family skeleton in the cupboard and lots of stories were made up to save embarrassment. eg the wife was an aicoholic, bigamy, gretna green marriages . etc etc. he was supposed to have turned up in Sheffield once his wife had died in 1892, to do the honourable thing, but my grt gran’s sister answered the door, turned him away, and didn’t tell my grt gran. so was he broken hearted and thus left for Australia? either he did not have much luck or he was a bit of a ladies man. I would love to know what he got up to in Australia, perhaps I will have to pay up and look on that Victorian photographers site.
my great gran went on to marry a respectable but short and stout chap called Jimmy Hawnt and had 3 more children.
-
Yes Samuel's son, John Edward had a busy life.
John Edward had daughter Maude and then with wife no. 2 went on to have a son (may have been killed in 1915) and daughter (who died in Lewisham in her 90's) followed by several daughters in Australia by wife no. 3. I have not been able to find any grandchildren from these other children. You can look for John Edward (noted as John) and his wife Margaret in the voting records in Australia on line. A couple of daughters continued to stay at home until their parents died.
It would be interesting to find out about his work in Whaley Bridge (his wife no. 2 being his receptionist). What type of photography was he involved in and are there any of his works logged anywhere.
He worked in Australia as a photographer and it appears he left his second wife to go to Australia at a time his third wife had his child......
Red
-
John Edward Hoggard
Married Annie Burnicle who died young in 1892. She ran a boarding house not far from her father-in- law (Samuel Hoggard) house.
In 1892 John Edward tried to marry Maude E Musgrave and was refused by her family.
In 1893 he married Ada Ellen Blake. He had two children named in 1901 census (where Ada lived with her two children in West Derby, Liverpool - working as a photographers receptionist) - Dorothy Eleanor aged 7 and Ernest John aged 5. From a human point of view Ada Hoggard must have had a very difficult time bringing up two small children on her own in the late 1890's. Both of her children were born in Kings Lyn and I assume this was at her mother's home.
Ernest John Hoggard was killed in 1916, 5th June. His mother was noted as living in Shepherds Bush, London at the time. There is another Ernest John Hoggard born in 1896 who died in USA..... so I have not been able to confirm which he is. I have not looked up Ada Hoggard in 1911 census and this might give us a clue.
In 1901 (same time as Ada was in Liverpool) her husband was registered as voting in Victoria, Australia, as Edward Hoggard, photographer, with wife Margaret. His daughters were..... Margaret Eleanor born 1899 (mother Margaret Egan), Florence Mary Hoggard, 1901, died 1960, Mabel Annie born 1904.
In 1931 John Edward Hoggard (photographer), Margaret (home duties), Florence (clerk), Mabel (clerk)and Marjorie (saleswoman) were all living in Macarthur St, Sale.
One thing for sure is that both Samuel and his son JE Hoggard travelled a lot when their other family is likely to have stayed close to their wider family. Samuel having been born in Nottingham and then moving to York in 1861 and up to Redcar and dying in Yorkshire. John moving from York to Red Car up to Scotland in 1880, then to Red Car, Whaley Bridge, Australia! All at a time when travel was not so easy.
You may be interested to look up Maude Paul's 'father'- Charles Paul's family tree - see Charles Paul in RootsChat.
Red
-
oh wow, all that info, just like that when for years we have not turned up anything! where did you find it?
I'm very pleased. so maybe I have cousins in Australia?
yes, I would like to check out Charles Paul. there's an interesting family story there too .... Maude Musgrave's sister Ellen married a local lad in Lincolnshire, but his parents disapproved. they were both 21 ... he died young of TB, and he left her a box, like a blanket box, the sort servants kept their belongings in. in the lining she found 100 guineas. she went to a lawyer in Sheffield to ask if this was really hers - her husband had tried to make sure she would be alright - and the clerk there was Charles Paul. with the money and presumably Charles Paul's help, she set herself up in business, a china shop and post office in Nether Hallam. that is how she was able to look after her sister and then her niece.
However, the Musgraves were quite well off anyway, being millers and farmers, ...
-
Hello. It is exciting when you find information you have looked for for years. I would like to think that JEH finally found happiness in Australia as he seemed to have stayed with his family and in the same area.....
If you look at the voting record for 1931 all the girls were living at home under the name of Hoggard so if they married they would have married late. I have not been able to track down any grandchildren for John Edward except those through of Maude Herman.... but maybe you can post a search query on this website in the Australian section to see if any of the girls married later.... or to find out what happened to them.
Red
-
obviously his itinerant lifestyle must have left him living in boarding houses, lonely and as susceptible to interested young women as they were to him. the fact that he tried to marry Maude Musgrave must mean that he either had a conscience about her and the child, or was in love with her - or saw her well-to do relatives as advantageous! so you could read it as being the victim of circumstance and a little rash, or as a person who didn't care too much about the harm he did to others. but to leave his second wife with kids and start another family in Australia ... perhaps she didn't want to go, or they didn't have enough money ... but even so! are there letters somewhere, one wonders ..
-
Margaret Eleanor Hoggard, the first of the Australian daughters married John Harper McConnell in 1920. they had John Robert McConnell (in 1920!)and a boy, Ian Bruce, born in 1928, died the same year.
John Harper married Myrtle Minnie, but they both died in the 2000's and apparently there were no children. so I did have Hoggard cousins in Australia, but sadly, not now. it does look as if we are the only descendants left.
-
unless when it says living children and there are no names it means people are being coy ....
-
hi red ash
is it possible for you to contact me on cpower@ireland.com i have a descendant of samuel hoggard who'd be very interested to get in touch !
regards
conan
-
I'm a descendant too, if you're interested, I have it down to my generation in Australia now ...
-
wow! yeah, hi ! are you a descendant of john e hoggard and margaret egan then ?
my email is cpower@ireland.com
my relative is descended from samuel hoggard via his daughter lily augusta richards.
-
hi, no I am a descendant of J E Hoggard via his liason with Maude E Musgrave, my grandmother was Maude Herman Hartley, nee Paul (she was more or less adopted by her Aunt and uncle Paul)
I have names for great grandchildren of J E Hoggard and Margaret Egan in Australia, waiting to see what they want to do about it.
-
thanks for sharing - so i've got details of the lily richards line if you want them - samuel's sister - right down to the san francisco branch, holidaying with me in ireland right now
-
my email is design@janewheeler.co.uk
so you are descended from Lily, I have no descendants for her on my tree, I just started in ancestry.com
it would be fascinating to see all these connections - ireland, san fransisco - amazing!
-
so Lily Richards was the daughter of John Hoggard and Ann Armstrong. Ancestry is not throwing up any of that info :(
-
oh, you mean J E H's sister. I have found she went to New York in 1893, is that correct? how brave!
-
yes - that right - I've sent you a private message :D :D
-
Apologies for not responding but purplejulian has filled me in. I too am a relative.
We are so happy to find information about Lily Hoggard.
Red
-
yes, I have checked all this out too as far as one is able, and there are some problems. on is that Charles the son of John Hoggard the blacksmith was living with his father, and his (Charles') wife Ann.
but the Charles I found born in 1822 at Budby, same place as Samuel but 2 years earlier, marries an Elizabeth.
-
further problems with Ann Hoggard, laundress, her sister living with her, Mary Armstrong - in the 1851 census, there is a daughter Sophia, 19, there, and a niece, Elizabeth Tomlinson, aged 20, and no husband - living in "Rudby" Notts - I presume that's a misreading of Budby
that doesn't seem to be Samuel's family.
-
Thank you. Now things are starting to come together. I have seen Sanuel from edwinstowe but dismissed it but as Budby is tiny a child my need to be registered to Edwinstowe.
I have copies of an A,, Hoggard in 1851 and 1861 living with sister Mary Armstrong - so now I can link those to the tree. Thank you for this.
Their lace of birth is Budby. Samuel or other chikdren are not with them..
Red
there are so many Hoggards around there - and if you google you get lots of modern ones too -
henry hoggard born 1819, edwinstowe, father samuel, butcher ... http://www.famhist.us/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I3713&tree=Hoggard
what about this one?
William Hoggard was born on 2 Feb 1756 in Edwinstowe, Nottinghamshire .. just looking this up .. goes back a generation to
William Hoggard1727 – 1778 and forward one generation to
John Hoggard
Birth 3 Jan 1765 in Edwinstowe, Nottinghamshire, , England
Death 1 Apr 1847 in Edwinstowe, Nottinghamshire, , England
but our John Hoggard, father of Samuel is born Swaiston 1787, died Worksop 1871
perhaps Budby is a false lead?
-
in fact there's a whole bunch of Hoggards born and dying in Edwinstowe who don't seem to be related to our Hoggards at all .. they start with a Richard Hoggard born 1692, ending with the second William's family, one at least, a Samuel, dying in Edwinstowe in the 1850's with no links on this tree in ancestry.co.uk .. maybe I can push that a bit further .. not so far.
so - 1851 census
has our John (blacksmith) and Ann aged 64 and 62, living with son Charles (blacksmith), daughter in law Ann and their children Sarah, William, Samuel, Hannah, and Maria, in Blyth, which is about 12 miles from Budby.
1841 census has the same family in Blyth, written as Haggard, one child, Sarah, aged 1
1861 same family group in Blyth, John now 77, Charles children Sarah 21, Maria 11, and John 5. but on this census it gives his birth place as Edwinstowe .. then I have somewhere that he died in 1871, so not on that census
1871 Charles Hoggard in Blyth, blacksmith has only Samuel with him, it says 17 on the translation, but I read it as 27, since he was in the 1851 census as under 10.
you have to be careful because this Charles has a doppelganger in Worksop married to Elizabeth with a son Sam.
phew! that took a couple of hours out of my morning's work ... good thing I am self-employed ..
-
Apologies for not responding but purplejulian has filled me in. I too am a relative.
We are so happy to find information about Lily Hoggard.
Red
great to be in contact ! let me know (private messqge) if you want to be put in touch with my cousin galen (i'm guessing your 3rd cousin), and a descendant of lily
-
furthermore, re Mrs Ann Hoggard in Budby, laundress, she's there in 1844 according to the directory of that year, as is a Mrs Mary Armstrong. so I'm not convinced about her being Ann Armstrong who married John Hoggard.
-
Apologies for not responding but purplejulian has filled me in. I too am a relative.
We are so happy to find information about Lily Hoggard.
Red
great to be in contact ! let me know (private messqge) if you want to be put in touch with my cousin galen (i'm guessing your 3rd cousin), and a descendant of lily
Yes, I would like to be put in touch with your cousin. I was not sure how to find private message.....
-
hi red ash
at the very top, where it says welcome - it should say "you have X messages" - thats where the private message is :)
i've sent you a message there with your cousins details.
cheers