RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: missingmccabe on Thursday 30 December 10 04:24 GMT (UK)
-
I am looking for any information on Josephine McCabe who had a child in 1934. She lived in Hollyfield Building in Rathmines in 1934. Any information would be more than helpful. Please. or any direction that could put me in the right direction. I have been searching for some time..
-
Hello,
I am looking for any information on my mum Josephine Reeves she was raised on Old Camden st and I believe she was schooled at Harold Cross Convent School. She moved to Kylemore Drive, Ballyfermot when she was 16. She worked at a florist and as a dispatcher then contracted a sickness that turned to TB. She was hospitalized for 2 years and then moved to England in 1957.. I have no pictures of her prior to her being 30 and she passed when she was 44. I was 9 years old. Any help on any information would be so helpful. Thank you! Catherine
-
what sort of information are you looking for ?
More recent details are probably not online due to privacy restrictions etc
Is McCabe her married or maiden name .. do you know her husband's name ?
Shane
-
might be worth putting this query on the Dublin.ie/forum as there are people of that era online there who might be able to help (though the site is having a technical issue at the moment).
You might need to clarify some dates :
1. when was she born
2. when was she in Harold's Cross? the school there is St Clare's
http://www.stclares.ie/school_profile.html
there is a thread on the Dublin Forum re people who went to the school
http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?8948-Saint-Clares-school-Harolds-Cross
My aunts went to this school - one born 1938, one born 1944.
-
my mother was born mccabe but illegally adopted and it was changed to reeves. i am trying to find the mccabe due to medical conditions i suffer and that my mum died from. i am not getting cooperation from the church or gro. any help is appreciated.
-
i was trying to keep these separate since no one apppears to want to help me authority wise in Ireland since my mum was born to an unwed mother and my mum was adopted. Hence the McCabe and Reeves. My apologies.
-
here's a link to the related thread : Info on Josephine Reeves Old Camden St & Ballfermot (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,503762.msg3605028.html#msg3605028)
just to be clear - is Josephine the name of both the child and mother ?
I had a quick look at the BMD index but did not see any births for the name Josephine McCabe in Dublin south (the district which includes Rathmines) during 1934.
Shane
-
Hi Shane,
Yes, my understanding is that josephine mccabe (my grandmother) had my mother josephine anne mccabe at the rotunda hospital. Do you think she was from somewhere else?
-
I checked for births around Rathmines - the Rotunda hospital is in Dublin North. I'll double check the births on the index just in case.
I think since these posts relate to a mother & child and the details inter-link it's better to merge them to make things clearer, and also so that people dont duplicate any searches...
Shane
-
i greatly appreciate it. The level of secrets around my mother's birth amazes me. especially since she died young and i might have the same thing. I want to get answers... and it has not been easy.
-
would they post a child born out of wedlock?
-
As far as I know at that time births were registered by an official in the hospital - so I dont think people could skip this..
are you certain about the year of birth ?
I dont see any Josephine McCabe births anywhere in Dublin city during 1934. The closest by date is one in in Dublin north in April June quarter of 1930 - which has mothers maiden name entered. (I would not expect to see this for an unmarried mother)
Shane
-
Can you find any info on her mother, my grandmother Josephine McCabe? it's like a comedy routine
-
You didn't mention an approx age for Josephine snr in 1934, but I presume she was quite young ?
If she was 18 at the time she would have been born 1916 - so too late to be included in the 1911 census.
No real way to try find out more about her other than randomly ordering birth certs for the name Josephine McCabe - and that's assuming she used her real name. Even then confirming which might be your Josephine would be difficult.
Shane
-
If we try to establish what you have
1. Have you a birth cert for your mother
2. Have you a birth cert for your grandmother
3. If you go to the site that Shane is using which is here (http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347) and just put "Josephine" for Christian name, "birth" "1934" and "Dublin" you get all Josephines born in 1934 in Dublin. it gives the surname and mothers maiden name.
5 of them were illegitimate (to the extent that surname and mother's name are the same)
These 5 Josephines are McCann, Hardy, Moore, Creamer and Steinson
In my opinion, if you are correct about 1934 and Dublin, then the McCann one is probably the one you want. Otherwise you need another date or place for the registration
-
well spotted... plus it's in the right district for the Rotunda (Dublin North)
Shane
-
did they change names like that? if yes, that's amazing. I am getting my dr. to write a letter to the rotunda to see if they can at least release med info. Irish laws are tough.. this stuff is much easier in the US. my adoptive grandmother lived in the hollyfield buildings as did the birth mother so that's why we think they must have just given my mum to her. we were thinking that maybe it was a family memeber.. a sister in law or such.. but there it gets more confusing.
Josephine's mum (adoptive) was Elizabeth Reeves (nee Hogan, formerly Butler - she was widowed from this marriage) She died 15 July 1977;
Josephine's dad was John Reeves a Handy man. Elizabeth and John married 20 Dec 1929. Think this was at the Church of 3 Patrons ( as you told me last night) in Rathgar. John Reeves address had been 5 Gore Cottages, Camden Row. Elizabeth Butler Nee Hogan had lived at 81 Hollyfield Buildings (presumably Dublin).
Does this thicken the plot? Well, I might as well let this all go out.. I just found out 3 months ago I had a sister as well. http://www.boston.com/community/stories_to_inspire/articles/2010/12/19/an_old_secret_blooms_into_joy/
-
Ah Ha!!! So the GRO is amending my mother's birth certificate even though my mother has been dead for 30 plus years .. it showed florence mccann as her birth mother on the cert. the gro stated that was incorrect.. but maybe it was correct and they are changing it to protect the mother? would that be the case?
-
3 patrons church hold my mother's baptim cert and st. kevin's hold her confirmation. the GRO still has not updated my mother's birth cert, as i just got off the phone with them.
-
It is quite difficult to help you due to the complexity
Can you just confirm that you have your mothers birth cert and exactly what it says on it.
Dates, names , places
-
Birth certificates can and are altered under certain circumstances.
This is a UK rather than Irish example but my mother was born illegitimately Jane Evans, had a birth cert in that name, then 20 years later it was changed legally to Jane Pugh. It took me a long time to get to the bottom of the story as I had no idea that she was illigitimate, and the UK government took some convincing to release the second Birth Cert (story here) (http://www.grantonline.com/pugh-family-genealogy/pugh-jane-1915/jane-pugh.htm)
I cannot follow in your tale where the "McCabe" has got in, if the birth cert says "McCann"
-
i do have one of my mother's birth certs. It lists Florence McCann as mum born at the Rotunda on May 1 1934 they resided at Hollyfield buildings. As did the adoptive mum 81 Hollyfield buildings. the gro now wants to amend her birth cert to show josephine mccabe gave birth to josephine mccabe. and 3 patron's church is stating (after not giving me the info) that my mum josephine mccabe was born to josephine mccabe. I am not sure if someone is trying to protect an identity here. or sorting fact from fiction.
-
just to follow up on the Reeves family ...there's a John and Elizabeth Reeves living at 232 Mount Pleasant buildings on the 1939 Dublin City Electoral register.
See http://dublinheritage.ie/electoral
Mount Pleasant buildings were in Ranelagh, and not that far from Hollyfield buildings which was on the outskirts of Rathmines close to Rathgar.
Shane
-
You are not making this easy
1."I do have one of my mother's birth certs" You imply that there is another. Is that for "Josephine Reeves"?
2. What date was the Josephine McCann one actually issued, and same for Josephine Reeves
3. I don't think I would subscribe to conspiracy theory here. If they have changed from "Florence McCann" to "Josephine McCabe" that may not be their "fault"
I would suspect (from what you have told us) that her name was Josephine McCabe and that she gave a false name when she checked in to the hospital - understandable give the time and the place - Dublin 1934.
Now the church has some reason to amend that. Perhaps some information has come their way recently.
I suspect that your best way forward would be to contact the church by phone, and make it very polite - if you make accusations they will shelter behind the protection that the law gives them.. Ask them very politely why the name has been changed and the reason that you need to know.
-
."I do have one of my mother's birth certs" You imply that there is another. Is that for "Josephine Reeves"?
Answer: I have her old birth cert prior to the GRO amending it showing my mother Josephine McCabe her date of birth at 5/1/1934 to Florence McCann at Rotunda living at 81 Hollyfield Building and an add note that states this was hearsay from her adoptive mother stating this was the case.
2. What date was the Josephine McCann one actually issued, and same for Josephine Reeves
Answer: There is only one cert for Josephine McCabe and it was issued on 1/21/1966
3. I don't think I would subscribe to conspiracy theory here. If they have changed from "Florence McCann" to "Josephine McCabe" that may not be their "fault"
I would suspect (from what you have told us) that her name was Josephine McCabe and that she gave a false name when she checked in to the hospital - understandable give the time and the place - Dublin 1934.
Now the church has some reason to amend that. Perhaps some information has come their way recently.
I suspect that your best way forward would be to contact the church by phone, and make it very polite - if you make accusations they will shelter behind the protection that the law gives them.. Ask them very politely why the name has been changed and the reason that you need to know.Answer: GRO stated it was hman error. I am hoping.
-
You have lost me again. To help you we need to get the facts and sequence straight. Is this what happened
1. A birth was registered in the name of Josephine McCann, child of Florence McCann. She was born 1 May 1934. And this certificate was issued in 1934. Is that correct and do you have the actual cert or have you tried to get it..
2. A second cert was issued on 21 Jan1966, in which the name of the child was Josephine McCabe and the mother to Josephine McCabe.
GROs do not gratuitously change names unless someone pushes them. A key question here is why would they have reissued the cert on that date. You mother was 31 and must have asked for the change. She would have had to provide proof. GRO will not make a change just because she said there was a mistake. What proof would she have supplied. Your mother must have had some "paperwork", what happened to it. Alternatively you could try to get from GRO reasons why the change was made and what paperwork they hold.
3. If the Reeves are stating the truth, and they registered the birth (the cert should say who registered the birth), the implication is that they did not know your grandmother very well. We could research the Reeves and see if there was a connection, but this is looking at there being no family connection.
4. Did you grandmother, "Josephine McCabe senior" then just disappear without trace.
5. "3 patrons church hold my mother's baptism cert and st. Kevin's hold her confirmation. " Do you have those, and what name do they have
6."the GRO still has not updated my mother's birth cert" The fact that a new cert appears to have been issued in 1966 to "Josephine McCabe". You need to check the 1966 GRO entries to see. The online records we have access to only go to 1958. You are in to the land of 2 "valid" birth certs, GROs will only release one of them, otherwise a person could legally have two passports in 2 names (reason UK GRO gave me). The original birth in 1934, registered as McCann will always remain, but they will refuse to issue a cert unless you supply a death cert to prove that you could not use both birth certs.
7. Reading what I have written, it appears to me that you have little "proof" that your grandmother was actually called "Josephine McCabe".The Reeves registered it as McCann. The baptism was presumably done by the the Reeves as well. So where and from whom did the new info come in 1966 to make the GRO change the name is the key.
-
can I just take a step further back - you already have two certs, and a baptism record... what other details are you looking for ?
The 'incorrect' details on the original Civil cert are not that surprising, it was not at all unusual for misleading for incorrect details to be given by for birth records by single mothers. Supplying false information may not have been an option for the baptism as it's possible that the priest knew Josephine's family (or the Reeves).
You mentioned earlier about this being an 'illegal' adoption - that's not quite accurate, since the process was only formalised by legislation in 1952. Before this all adoptions in (The Republic of) Ireland were informal arrangements.
Shane
-
There is a possibilty that in 1966 Josephine required a Birth Certifcate but only had a Baptisimal one.
If an application was made that did not match the records one may have been issued to "match" the church records. It is unusual but not unheard of.
If the GRO then made a discovery that the records of Josephine McCabe/McCann were the same they would attempt to correct their reocrds.
I agree with the earlier suggestion that she may have checked into the hospital under an assumed name where she wasn't known but could not keep up that pretence in a church either through being known or not wanting to lie.
There is an entry for a birth for a Florence Mary McCann born in Dublin North; Jan-Mar 1916 ref# Volume 2 Page 417
She would fit with the correct age if she could be matched back to Josephine.
There was another Florence born in 1923 but this would be too late to have a child in 1934
These records are on the familtsearch site
-
It's possible that Josephine needed a valid birth certificate to apply for a passport in 1966 "And so Josie left in 1968 to start over again in America."
-
if scans are available of the birth cert, baptism cert and any other relevant documents, it would be worthwhile uploading them.
-
Note: only extracts of certs are allowed on rootschat
Generally so that people can assist with any difficult to read sections.
Mod
-
Hi All,
You are correct, she did need a cert for immigration. My mum left Ireland in 1957 to have my sister (because she was not married). After she had her she then went to immigrate to Australia. This is when she was given the wrong baptism cert and told she herself was adopted. The gave her the wrong baptism cert and she had the wrong birth date. When she left Australia to gain entry to America she then needed a long form birth. She did get the correct (I hope) baptism cert. This is when she discovered her birth mother.. even though it was listed incorrectly on her cert and was in fact given the correct birth date. I hope this helps. I will attach her cert shortly. So after finding my sister I did not know I had 3 months ago and following my mothers trail now.. this has been an amazing journey. Thank you all for looking at this.. I would love to solve this mystery of my mum.
-
.....
I will attach her cert shortly. ....
....
please do not post a full cert... these are not allowed on rootschat
Dublin Moderator
-
My mother's bapism cert from 3 patron's church also lists Brigid Molloy as her godmother. She was baptised May 23.. would this have been by her mum and Brigid be a friend? What senerios could be at play? I am grasping at anything to try to piece this together. Thank you again. It also lists her confirmatin at st. kevin's but there is no listing of 1st communion.. should that be listed as well?
-
Godparents or sponsors are chosen by the parents as they wish, and can be family, friends or neighbours. In most cases there would be a male and female godparent.
Sometimes parish baptism records include details of later events such as confirmation or marriage, but not always. Among my own extended family I've seen several instances where a marriage was noted on the baptism details, but never anything on 1st communion or confirmation.
Shane
-
I've seen several instances where a marriage was noted on the baptism details, but never anything on 1st communion or confirmation.
I've never seen Confirmation in the older Parish registers, say, up to 1900.
However, when I asked at our Parish Church for a copy of my niece's baptism(1970s)/letter of freedom to marry ... for her marriage - I was told "we've no note of her Confirmation", implying that normally this was noted - when this became normal I've no idea
eadaoin
-
So you think 1st communion would not be recorded? I found,I believe 1 Josephine McCabe in Dublin on the register. who would fit the profile of my grandmother. How easy would it be to trace her? Church wise? I have my Dr. writting a letter regarding the medical conditions my mum and I have.. would this help? Rotunda said FOI does not apply and they are not impelled to release except for a list of circumstances.. medical is one. Is anyone familiar with 3 patron and their policy/ beliefs? meaning are they strict? the woman I have been dealing with there appears to be protective of the records.
-
....
I found,I believe 1 Josephine McCabe in Dublin on the register. who would fit the profile of my grandmother. How easy would it be to trace her?
.........
Is anyone familiar with 3 patron and their policy/ beliefs?
....
which register did you find this possible Josephine McCabe ?
There will not be much detail in any civil or church records, as these will only include births marriages & deaths, and proving if any specific Josephine is 'yours' would be difficult.
not sure what you mean by the policy of the 3 Patrons - where was this Josephine born/baptised ?
Shane
-
I found it on the family search pilot site. could there be more than what is listed ther? it just states dublin. this mom would have been 20 I believe, when having my mum. they all lived in hollyfield building in 1934 and she was baptised at 3 patron... are there any other irish/ dublin searchable databases from 1933 forward? I have the dublin electoral 1939..
-
I dont see that birth on the Civil Index familysearch - was it in 1914 ?
The civil BMD index covers registrations up to 1958 for southern Ireland, other than that, there will not be much else online for more recent details on people.
Do you have any other details on Josephine (snr) ?
i.e. which county was she was born in, did she later marry etc..
Shane
-
....
this mom would have been 20 I believe, when having my mum. they all lived in hollyfield building in 1934 and she was baptised at 3 patron...
......
not clear about this....which Josephine do you mean ?
We know Josephine jnr was baptised in the 3 Patrons, but was her mother baptised there also ?
Shane
-
I could have the year off.. plug in josephine mccabe birth dublin 1900 to 1920.. it's around 1910 to 1915
-
The two Josephine McCabe births that I see in Dublin around that time (both have Mary as a middle name) are in 1910 and located in Dublin North registration district - so nowhere near Rathgar or the Three Patrons church.
Shane
-
....
Do you have any other details on Josephine (snr) ?
i.e. which county was she was born in, did she later marry etc..
....
If Josephine (snr) later married then it would be much easier to find a correct birth for her, as a marriage cert would show her father's name, and occupation and could then be used to confirm, or rule out any possible births for her. Finding the correct birth for a person with just a very approximate year of birth and no details on location of birth or parents is very hit and miss... and you would never be certain that you had found the right person.
Shane
-
I know no other info on josephine sn other than her name. much of this is a shot in the dark and not at all accurate. I am reaching at straws until I can get facts.
-
i think I had it in a broader search and misread. how far would someone have traveled when having a child?
-
If Josephine (snr) later married then it would be much easier to find a correct birth for her, as a marriage cert would show her father's name, and occupation and could then be used to confirm, or rule out any possible births for her. Finding the correct birth for a person with just a very approximate year of birth and no details on location of birth or parents is very hit and miss... and you would never be certain that you had found the right person.
I know no other info on Josephine sn other than her name.
With what is written in this thread, there is nothing to suggest that "Josephine McCabe" was her real name. Any more than that it might have been "Florence McCann".
-
i really never took into consideration that a false name was used. would the hospital accept that? I am working to get the info from the Rotunda. I will still pursue it, but now I realize that even what is written down as fact, might not be.
-
One important detail to remember is that the Rotunda is exclusively a maternity hospital, so if it still has any records relating to Josephine snr they probably just relate to her stay in the hospital for the birth of her daughter.
Since the surname on the civil birth seems to be incorrect, it seems possible that Josephine may have registered under an assumed name. There would be no practical way for the hospital or registrar to confirm her details.
Shane
-
Since the surname on the civil birth seems to be incorrect,
Shane
The problem here is that the thing cannot be solved without the detail being answered.
Unfortunately there appears no actual evidence to suggest what is correct here
- original birth cert
- amended birth cert, or what evidence was used to amend it
- baptism record
-
maybe inconsistent would have been a better choice of phrase, rather than incorrect ?
McCann / McCabe ....
S.
-
Since the surname on the civil birth seems to be incorrect
You are right in saying that "incorrect" may well not be the right word. Think I would put "uncertain". It may be correct.
The OP tells us that there was a change in Birth Cert in 1966. The GRO would have needed hard evidence for that (rather than what we, the readers of this forum might think they might have wanted - using the subjunctive tense :)).
I have tried in vain to find what evidence this was, and is key to what the OP is trying to find.
-
the GRO just amended he record Dec 2010 stating it was a transcription error(human error) they changed it from a verbal statement taken from my adoptive mother. there is a proper name for it. I was told that it could never be located by the issuing agency since it was so old. If the GRO has this doc, I would think that he would offer it to me. But he has not.
-
I am not trying to be evasive in any way. this story is so confusing and complicated. I greatly appreciate any help. I am attempting to give all info straight forward. if there is any confusion I will try to straighten.. would it help if I reinerate the whole story?
-
It would help me if you could clarify not the whole story but just this
1. The date of registration of the first Birth Cert, who registered it , and in what name. I assume this was in 1934
2, The date of issue of the second Birth cert, I assume 1966, in what name and why was it reissued
3. What does the baptism record say, when was she baptised. And who had her baptised
-
the first cert was issued in 1966 when my mum tried to gain entry into the USA. It lists my mum Josephine Anne McCabe May 1 1934 as birth at the Rotunda to "florence McCann" who resided at 81 Hollyfield Bldg then the sidebar by elizabeth reeves and william, her son gave this info truthfully.. so my mum's birth record is hear say. I am trying to validate it with the 2nd doc I have. it's her baptism cert from 3 patron.. again josephine McCabe on May 1 1934 baptised the 24th of May 1934 and her sponsor was Brigid Molloy. it then shows confirmed at age 12 at St. Kevin's on harrington. I then contacted them and they do have a record of her confirmation. and have her info as being reeves/mccabe, Josephine.
the gro just amended her birth cert ststing human error and that her birth mum's name was Josephine McCabe. I WENT BACK TO T patron via e mail asking if Josephine was correct because she would not give me the info and she told me.. I told you it was josephine mccabe (snr) so that leads me to think that josephine is the correct name. hope this helps.. should I post the 2nd half of the cert?
-
OK, thank you. If we take it a step at a time.
So you do not actually the original registered Birth Cert for Josephine McCann, as on GRO
Have you tried to get that?
-
I do have the original from 1966 I cannot get the new one yet
-
I do not mean the "new" one, I mean the first, original in the name of Josephine McCann
I assume there was a cert in that name registered and available in 1934. Am I right?
-
yes. I have that cert from 1966 and the name was florence mccann as mother and josephine mccabe as my mum so it must have been human error since the last names do no coorespond?
-
Sorry to be pedantic, but I am trying to ascertain the facts :)
1. The 1966 birth cert says child's name "Josephine McCann" mother's name Florence McCann. Presumably the father's name is blank
2. This cert was issued to your mother in 1966. but when was the birth registered, and by whom
3. Why was the mother changed from "Florence McCann" who requested this, when and why and with what evidence
-
missingmccabe,
I think we should review the details you have step by step, so we can extract every possible last clue from the documents and sources you have.
As I see it you have three vital clues, plus your family story - which you've already explained.
1. 1934 Civil Birth Cert from the Rotunda Hospital
2. Baptism record in Rathgar
3. Re-Issued 1966 Civil Birth birth cert
Can you now reply, in three separate posts (one for each document), with the full details you can see on each of these. I.e. districts, date of issues, informants, addresses..... everything. The more facts we have, the better chance there is, that someone can help you in your quest.
Shane
-
September 21, 1956 Regristatin of Births and Deaths
(I will list these in order of when each document was generated, it might help to see why something was generated)
Mother: Elizabeth Reeves (she is the adoptive mother, this is not listed)Birth May 1st, 1934
Child name: Josephine
Hollyfield Rathmines Dublin
Female
Father John Reeves
His Dwelling Hollyfield Rathmines occupation painter
Elizabeth Reeves maiden name Hogan
Signed Elizabeth Reeves September 21, 1956
peace officer Edward Grace (sp?)
This was never submitted or authorized
-
August 1, 1958 Birth Cert Ireland
My mother has left Ireland May 1957 pregnant and had my sister Sept 1957. I am thinking now my mother is looking to immigrate to Australia and needs certification either baptism cert or birth cert for immigration purposes to go to Australia.
NOTICE THE NAME CHANGE FROM REEVES TO MCCABE.. THIS IS WHEN MY MOTHER FOUND OUT SHE WAS ADOPTED, AFTER SHE LEFT IRELAND TO HAVE HER DAUGHTER.
Josephine McCabe
April 5th, 1934 birth
Births and Deaths Registration Acts 1863-1952
This cert is wrong and I have a letter from the GRO sent in 1966 asking them to return it because it is incorrect. I believe though that there has to be some validity in the fact that they were looking for a Josephine McCabe.
-
Baptism cert July 23, 1958
Church of the Three Patrons Rathgar, Dublin
Josephine McCabe
May 1, 1934 Birth
May 23, 1934 Baptised
Sponsor Brigid Molloy no other sponsor
Confirmed at St. Kevin's Harrington st on April 1934
Currently the rep of 3 Patrons will not release any other info probably because there is only a mother listed on the cert.. meaning the child was born out of wedlock. She did state after asking that she confirmed Josephine McCabe was the daughter of Josephine McCabe.
-
January 21, 1966 Birth Certificate
(entry 239)
Date and place: May 1st 1934 Rotunda
Name: Josephine
Sex: Female
Surname and Maiden name of mother: Florence McCann* 115 Hollyfield Bldg Rathmines (column 6)
Rank/ Profession of father: ------------
Signature and residence informant: B. Hayes present at birth Rotunda
When registered: May 3, 1934
Signature of Registrant: MMJ Nolan
* in entry no. 239 column 6 for "florence mccann" read josephine McCabe. Corrected on 19th January 1966 by me Timothy Purcell for Supt. Reg on production of a statuary declaratrion made by Elizabeth Reeves and Willima Reeves being two credible persons having knowledge of the truth of the case. Baptismal certificate produced.
The GRO has amended this cert to show now that Josephine McCabe is the mom and Florence is now removed and there is no * in the column. This was the human error entry.
-
these are the docs that I have from Ireland.. St. Kevin's as my mum listed as McCabe/ Reeves.. only more info to compound my mum would have been McCabe. Mrs. Reeves lived at 81 Hollyfield Building when my mother was born.. So back then did a child stay in the family? Mrs. Reeves was once widowed prior to marrying Mr. John Reeves. Clues? Ideas? This is what I know.. I hope this helps.. Thank You!
-
Thank you for those details. We can see more clearly now what happened
1. Regarding the birth, it does seem that the mother signed into the Rotunda as "Florence McCann".
The hospital registered the birth as such, and there was presumably no need for a Birth Cert for many years, so the Reeves never spotted the mistake. They only did so in 1958 when your mother needed a Birth Cert
No "error" was actually made, the Rotunda were just using the data the mother gave them
2. There was a baptism on 23 May 1934. Had Josephine been "given" to the Reeves by this time. In other words was the baptism done by the natural mother, or had she left the scene by then.
Also the sponsor is a clue. Is she known to the Reeves or to the birth mother, or both.
I did wonder if she was the birth mother, but the fact that the Reeves later had the change from McCann to McCabe militates against that. They just would not have bothered if the real mother had been Bridid Molloy
3. The Reeves seem to have thought about registering the birth (again) in 1956. You say you have some papers. What happened here. Were the papers drawn up but never submitted. Or submitted and rejected.
4. The Reeves did know who the real mother was and had no doubts that it was McCabe, and felt strongly enough to get the original registration changed.
It perhaps indicates that they were friends/relations rather than just neighbours.
5. So when it comes down to it the only real clue there is to work on appears to be what is the relationship been the Reeves and the birth mother.
Did the Reeves have any other children?
6. Sometimes in these stories, the birth mother flits in and out as an "aunt" or other relative that your mother might have known. Anything come to mind here that might be worth mentioning?
7. Given the birth mother signed herself in to the Rotunda as "Florence McCann" of "115 Hollyfield Building" you need to look at who was living at that address at that time. Was there an actual Florence Mccann at that address, or was that "Josephine McCabe's" address, or is it fictitious?
-
has it been confirmed that Josephine McCabe actually used the name Florence McCann?
Could it be that the GRO issued the cert having transcribing the Mother's name incorrectly?
I have come across this when checking some of my facts
-
has it been confirmed that Josephine McCabe actually used the name Florence McCann?
Could it be that the GRO issued the cert having transcribing the Mother's name incorrectly?
I have come across this when checking some of my facts
The record on the BMD Index that appears to correspond has the name McCann also, and has no maiden surname - which fits the details.
.. so I'm dont think a mis-transciption at the point of issuing the cert could account for that.
Just to be sure it might be worth ordering a research cert of the birth entry, to see if the details are clear. I suppose it's possible that the details entered originally were unclear.. and mis-indexed from the beginning.
Shane
-
What I have here is what I know. My mother died when I was 9, 31 years ago. All her info died with her. My father never maintained contact.
My mother did have a brother, he was also adopted. His name was William Reeves June 22, 1932 and died February 12,1998. He had "nerves" as I was told. I wrote to him a few times with no return. My adoptive grandfather John Reeves b.May 2, 1897 d May 22, 1955 (I found he had a sister Mary last night) (son of William and Margaret Kennedy) and my grandmother was Elizabeth Hogan. She was married and widowed once to a Butler then married John Reeves 12/20/1929 at 3 Patron. The only other fact I know is she had a sister from a telegram that was mailed to inform William, my uncle, of his sister's death, my mum. Molly Hogan 1b Mount Pleasant Terrace Ranelagh Dublin 6.
I wish the woman at 3 Patron could/ would help me. Living in Massachusetts does not help. I wish I had all of this put together prior to going to Ireland in August..
I was trying to put the family information together. I don't know if this Molly Hogan is still alive? There is another family friend who I am trying to speak with. Brigid Brett. (never married) She lived next to my grandmother Reeves on Kylemore Drive Ballyfermot... I found her younger brother a couple of weeks ago.. I have not heard back from him yet, sadly.
-
Hi Corisande,
It appears my mother's baptism record is listed as McCabe. But I am not 100 percent. I have not actually seen the record. I have seen the confirmation record and that shows mccabe/ reeves. When I got the cert from the chruch it showed McCabe.. but it was also missing the mother's name.
The papers were drawn up and appear never submitted. $$ maybe to register? Never the less it is the physical doc. At this point maybe it was my adoptive grandmother attempting to change things in vain. This is when my mother had left for England to have my sister. it appears she did not know she was adopted yet.
I am not fluent in searching Irish records. it would seem there is some connection since the addresses at Hollyfield are close to each other. The Reeves living at 81 and Florence McCann or Josephine McCabe living at 115 Hollyfield... if we could actually find who was living at 115 Hollyfield at that time..? But I don't know how to begin doing that? I have dealt with the housing authority before.. they are the ones who told me my uncle had died.. other than that they have been very secretive about things.
-
What do you know about "Uncle Billy" , have you his birth cert or his original surname
I looked through 1932 for Dublin, and he was probably born Brown (or could have been Rochfort) if illegitimate
-
if we could actually find who was living at 115 Hollyfield at that time..?
can anyone help with this specific point. Who was there in 1934, McCann, McCabe or someone else?
-
if we could actually find who was living at 115 Hollyfield at that time..?
can anyone help with this specific point. Who was there in 1934, McCann, McCabe or someone else?
I think that could be difficult, there's no details of occupants listed in directories for the address - e.g. Thom's 1938 reads :
Hollyfield buildings - Upper Rathmines
120 small houses
The only other details online that are close to the date would be from the 1939 Dublin City Electoral register, which shows a possibility for the Reeves family living in Ranelagh.
I'll double check the register to see if Hollyfield is included... it might be just outside the city area...
One possibility would be to post something on the Dublin.ie thread mentioned earlier. Maybe someone there would have some memory of the McCabe's or Reeves..
Shane
-
Hollyfield buildings is included in the '39 city register :
81 - Mary Sinnot
115 seems to be unoccupied at the time as there is no listing. I had a quick look through all of Hollyfield, but didnt see any McCabe or McCann entries.
Note - 1937 is the earliest surviving 20thC Dublin City register - Dublin City Library (Pearse St) has this and later editions up to 1964, but these only available to visitors to the library.
Shane
-
any brigid molloy?
-
I didnt see any Molloy families listed in Hollyfield in '39
Shane
-
Any suggestions on next steps? I'll post on the other site... but I need a game plan at this point.. what would be the best pursuits at this point.. short of coming out there myself! which I would love to do again! I can't thank everyone one enough.. the mystery of this is fun.. but it is also my life. and I thank those for hrlping me. It means a lot.
-
Unfortunately Hollyfield buildings are long gone, so no clues there. The dates you are looking for are a bit recent, so there is not that much available due to privacy restrictions etc. People didn't leave much of a trail of evidence in those days and the usual clues to help the search for Josephine snr are missing in this case - e.g. parents or husbands names, place of birth etc
I think due to the lack of clues your best chance may be via the memory of someone who lived nearby, or actually knew your McCabes or Reeves families - it's a long-shot...
Shane
-
one detail I should have mentioned about the Dublin City Registers - the voting age at that time was 21 (for both men and women), so if Josephine and/or Brigid were under that age, or chose not to register, then they would not be listed.
Shane
-
I don't think the date of confirmation correct? 1934
-
The National Archive has earlier Electoral Registers - books - quite slow to check. 1927-1929, 1934/35 and maybe others that I never noted.
I've got data for my own family for 1934 - from Rathfarnham, Terenure, Rathmines, Howth, Pembroke.
I think the Call Number for 1934/35 South City is ... 1C-56-2
Rathmines is under Townships (sometimes included in County) ..1C-56-3
... but that would need to be checked.
Also, someone would have to go in person, and order the books a day in advance. I can't do this for the next 6 weeks or probably longer.
eadaoin
-
I don't think the date of confirmation correct? 1934
Church of the Three Patrons Rathgar, Dublin
Josephine McCabe
May 1, 1934 Birth
May 23, 1934 Baptised
Sponsor Brigid Molloy no other sponsor
Baptism cert July 23, 1958
Church of the Three Patrons Rathgar, Dublin
Josephine McCabe
May 1, 1934 Birth
May 23, 1934 Baptised
Sponsor Brigid Molloy no other sponsor
Confirmed at St. Kevin's Harrington st on April 1946
Currently the rep of 3 Patrons will not release any other info probably because there is only a mother listed on the cert.. meaning the child was born out of wedlock. She did state after asking that she confirmed Josephine McCabe was the daughter of Josephine McCabe.
-
I don't think the date of confirmation correct? 1934
you are correct. .thank you for catching that .. I was trying to be meticulous.. I changed it to April 1946 my apologies
-
Found the following that if you had the original certs the addresses may prove useful
Elizabeth Hogan married Edward Butler
Civil Records Dublin South Jul-Sep 1922 Volume 2 Page 465
Most logical death for Edward Butler
Civil Records Dublin South Oct-Dec 1928 Volume 2 Page 301 aged 32 implies born 1896
Elizabeth Butler married John Reeves
Civil Records Dublin South Oct-Dec 1929 Volume 2 Page 390
This is prossibly John REEVES on the 1911 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/McGee_s_Court/78695/
and in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/McGee_s_Court/1307119/
(there is discrepancies in ages here but some people aged unusually between 1901 and 1911)
and this is possibly Elizabeth Hogan Dublin 1911 aged 7
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Merchant_s_Quay/Redfern_Terrace/69641/
-
This is amazing research!! Thank you!
-
The National Archive has earlier Electoral Registers - books - quite slow to check. 1927-1929, 1934/35 and maybe others that I never noted.
I've got data for my own family for 1934 - from Rathfarnham, Terenure, Rathmines, Howth, Pembroke.
I think the Call Number for 1934/35 South City is ... 1C-56-2
Rathmines is under Townships (sometimes included in County) ..1C-56-3
... but that would need to be checked.
Also, someone would have to go in person, and order the books a day in advance. I can't do this for the next 6 weeks or probably longer.
eadaoin
Hi Eadaon,
If you should happen to go, keep me in mind.. I've waited this long in my life.. a few months more will be fine. I appreciate you thinking of me!
-
Hollyfield buildings is included in the '39 city register :
115 seems to be unoccupied at the time as there is no listing. I had a quick look through all of Hollyfield, but didnt see any McCabe or McCann entries.
George and Sarah McCann are listed at 37 Hollyfield Buildings
http://www.dublinheritage.ie/electoral/viewdoc.php?searchparam=search_surname%3D%26search_firstname%3D%26search_street%3Dhollyfield%2A%26from%3D0%26to%3D0%26search_number%3D%26search_polling%3D%26search_reg%3D%26start%3D100%26searchtype%3Dadvanced&searchback=&voterid=0000921445&djvufile=&djvupath=
-
George and Sarah McCann are listed at 37 Hollyfield Buildings
http://www.dublinheritage.ie/electoral .....
apologies for missing that.. and thanks to myluck! for correcting the error.
Shane
-
No problem Shanew147
I have looked at a few possibilties that seem so far to link up but I will PM missingmccabe first when I have a sense of logic on what I have found
I did however on my search find
Female McCabe Dublin North Apr-Jun 1934 V2 P306 Mother McCabe
which looks like it could be promising
-
....
I did however on my search find
Female McCabe Dublin North Apr-Jun 1934 V2 P306 Mother McCabe
which looks like it could be promising
....
very interesting... could the other McCann civil record be a complete red-herring then ?
Shane
-
possibly but it is all very complex
-
Have just confirmed that female mccabe was born to a Mary of Westmoreland Street and is unrelated to missingmccabe's search
-
Someone may be able to help with the civil records for some of these entries as I am struggling to find some: especially the marriage of Martin McCabe to Joanna ?? in 1900 approx as 11 years married on 1911 census.
Listed below background for search
Based on the information here to date on John REEVES as the adopted Dad this seems to be his family from the records
• Baptism MARY Reeves to William Reeves and Margaret Kennedy in 1892 born Dec 1891
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/2fe19e1020926
• Baptism JOHN Reeves to William Reeves and Margaret Kennedy in 1897
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/15c5951022423
• This could possibly be his sponsor Joanna Reeves on the 1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Trinity/Townsend_Street/1311672/
but more promising is this entry
(if Joanna was Reeves before she married you’d have a connection)
Please note that this is conjecture based on the fact she was living at 5.14 Hollyfield Buildings
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Hollyfield_Buildings/65909/
• Reeves 1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/McGee_s_Court/1307119/
• Reeves 1911 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/McGee_s_Court/78695/
• from this return we can see that William was born in Co. Tipperary in 1850 approx and that Margaret was born in England. Their eldest son was born in Co. Tipperary in 1885 approx and there is then a good possibility that they were married there in 1883 (married 28 years in 1911). They had 12 children of which 6 were living in 1911 but there are only four we are aware of; James, John, Kate and Mary.
-
This is amazing! I have put in for my mother's birth cert. As well I have asked for my grandmother's (elizabeth reeves) cert as well. I am wondering where she was born and where her family came from? I really think there is something more to her side.. I just spoke to a neighbor from my grandmother's street for the first time ever.. she knew very little on my family, but it was nice to catch up.
-
Re the Reeves family. Odd thing there to me is that, as I understand it, they adopted two children, William and your mother.
But William's parents were married and also had another child who was also adopted, but not by the Reeves.
Is there any common thing to link Reeves to William's parents and Josephine's parents. And who adopted William's sister.
-
I just received this from a very reliable source who looked for me: I cannot get over this! The tragedy
She died on 15th July 1977 and was 87 years old when she died and was listed as a widow at the time. From that I worked backwards and located her birth certificate as Elizabeth Hogan , born in South Dublin in 1892. I then searched for the Marriage record of Elizabeth Hogan and John Reeves and discovered that they were married in 1929 in Dublin but Elizabeth was listed as a widow when she wed. I searched further back and found this previous marriage where she married a man named Butler in 1922 also in Dublin but believe it or not she was a widow for that marriage as well. I continued searching back and located her first marriage to John James Dodds in 1917, again in Dublin
I am saddened but happy I have this information .. just need her birth parent names.. working on that now..
-
Elizabeth HOGAN married at least three times
to John James DODD in 1917
to Edward BUTLER in 1922
to John REEVES in 1929
Her father's name was James and is shown at different times as a gardener or labourer
-
On age this is most logically Elizabeth in 1901 if she was born in Dublin
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathmines/Rathgar_Road/1296967/
Her first marriage cert could help with her home address
However there does not seem to be a 19 year old Elizabeth Hogan listed in the country as born in Dublin and the closest Dublin based Elizabeth was born in Tipperary/Cork
-
On further investigation:
This seems to be definitely Elizabeth HOGAN in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Rathmines_Avenue/55341/
1901 seems more difficult as it looks as if John Hogan was widowed young with young children. It was not unusual to have them sent to a nurse family until they were older.
This could possibly be him in 1901 as Kildare/Dublin could be confused depending on location
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kildare/Gilltown/Newabbey/1439905/
this looks like it could be Mary A and Thomas but Lizzie/Elizabeth is still missing
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathfarnham/Terenure/1283655/
this could possibly be Elizabeth as ESSIE
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kildare/Donaghcumper/Celbridge_Town__Dublin_Road_/539459/
all would require confirmation
-
Breakthrough Alert!!!
So my sister just sent me over some info that a geneaologist had done a while ago. I am looking for a Molly Bradshaw who lived on 1b Pleasantville Terrace in 1979. My father sent my mother's notice of death to Molly Hogan at 1b Pleasant Terrace. So my father I am taking it did not know my great aunt was married??? and this would tie into the 1911 census that we found which also listed a the youngest Thomas Reeves.. so I also have a great uncle!! Any help on how to find her.. I am sure she has since passed but now she could have had children who might have info, picts, and would like to meet??!!
-
Moderator Note : If anyone has possible detail of the family mentioned, could they pass details on to missingmccabe by private message, since details of living people may not be posted on RootsChat.
-
.....
So my sister just sent me over some info that a geneaologist had done a while ago. I am looking for a Molly Bradshaw who lived on 1b Pleasantville Terrace in 1979. My father sent my mother's notice of death to Molly Hogan at 1b Pleasant Terrace. .....
....
could that address possibly be Mountpleasant Terrace ?
This is in Ranelagh and very close to Mountpleasant buildings where the Reeves were living in 1939.
Shane
-
I just got off the phone with a close family friend/ neighbor.
1. she remebers driving "cousins" back to Rathmines for Mrs. Reeves
2. Thinks Mrs. Reeves is buried at Mt. Jerome
3. Did not know about my sister.. but now she does!!! ;D
So my thought process of the 1B Mount Pleasant Terrace has more weight and somehow I need to look for the children of Thomas Hogan and Molly (Mary) Bradshaw nee Hogan.
Advice??
-
My Great Uncle's death notice:
HOGAN (Dublin) - Oct. 8 1973 at his residence, 1B Mount Pleasant Terrace, Ranelagh , Thomas C. beloved husband of Mary ,deeply regretted by his wife , sister, sister-in-law neices , nephews, relatives and friends................removal to Church of Her Immaculate Lady of Refuge, Rathmines this Tuesday evening arriving at 5.30o'clock. Funeral tomorrow (Wednesday) after 9.o'clock Mass to Deansgrange Cemetery.
Please PM me with info..