RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: powderpuff on Friday 31 December 10 10:33 GMT (UK)
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I have records in 1881 of a person born in a place Vron Vriara, and possibly the same person in a later census stating as born in Vron Chirk, both in Denbighshire.
Does anyone local to the area know of a place Vron Vriara. Is it near to Chirk.
Genuki records have been unsuccessful but I did find a place Fron Frys in the area on google. If the enumerator wasn't local it's possible the place name could have been spelt phonically. :)
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Hello powderpuff,
I agree that Fron would be more likely as a place name than Vron. Have you considered it might be the name of the property, rather than a place as such?
I think that Vron is the Anglicised version of Fron, which means hillside, or slope.
I have seen properties with the name of Vron, followed by another name usually.
Can you give details of the name of the person and census reference so we can all have a look and see what we think?
Jo
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Hi Jo,
Thank you for looking,..I'm tracing a Samuel Jones b. 1855 married to an Elizabeth b.1855 in Glyn which I assume to be Glyn Ceriog. With so many Samuel's and Elizabeth I would like to make sure I'm on the right track.
1891 census, RG12/4619/108, pg 19,
1881 census, RG11/5155/31, pg 5
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We seem to have fallen at the first fence here!I can't find them in 1881 with the reference you gave?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Try substituting F for the V, because the anglicised spelling can be Fron.
Have you any idea of the parish or the village?
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Come back here in an hour, I will do some searching for you. I think it may be the name of a house. One other thought, Try the Royal Mail address finder web site.
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Hi
So sorry, that will teach me for writing it down too quickly, the 1881 census should have read
piece 5515, not piece 5155
Thanks
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Thanks Scouseboy, trying the royal mail is a great idea
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I have seen the 1881 entry after someone on Ancestry left the link for the entry with the 1891 entry.The Census entries don't reveal a lot really,I certainly don't recognise a moden place called Vron Vriara despite having lived all my life barely a mile and a half away.Having said all that Samuel Jones doesn't readily show himself in either the 1861 or 1871 Census years.
As far as their marriage after looking on North Wales BMD its a virtual lucky dip!There is a possible Wrexham Civil Mariage in 1877 of a Samuel Jones and an Elizabeth Parry,with an Elizabeth Parry showing as born in Glyn in the Merionethshire Census 1861 as born in Glyn in c 1854 but showing with a family that does not look too straight forward!
RG9/4313/36/2.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hi William,
Thank you so much, I don't think I could have found anyone better considering you are so near to the area.
So far he really has been an exhausting person to search. I haven't found him in any other census records either nor in 1901. I will look at the 1861 census for Elizabeth Parry and would be happy to get a marriage cert, it would help, just to eliminate if necessary.
The name Vron Vriara maybe a house name lost. I've looked in the Royal Mail address finder but no luck with any names near to the Chirk/Wrexham area.
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If you send off for one of the certificates you may get further details or a more clear idea of place and location.
It may be worth you posting a query in the Merionethshire section, just in case the place was near the border of the two counties.
Are there any other possibilities for the spelling of "Vriara" ? Could it possibly be Fron Friary?
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Have a look at www.wrexham.gov.uk you just may be able to search for addresses on there. Search for modern day street names with Friary in the name.
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Hi :)
I was born in Chirk and lived there until i was 18 - even closer than WR ;)- and there are a number of Vron/Frons - There's Froncysyllte which is about 3 miles from Chirk and a Fron Issa and Fron Ucha which are in the Penyclawdd township of Chirk parish.
Fron is the current spelling of Vron - in Welsh F is pronounce as V and FF is pronounced as F ;D
I'll have a look around to see if i can come up with anything more.
JL
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Hello again
I've just been looking at my OS maps and the nearest that I can find is a Stryt y Veri which leads from the Fron Ucha that I mentioned.
Here's the location:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0azv/
It's on the borders of Chirk and Llangollen parishes but was in Chirk parish in the 19th century as far as I know. Some of my ancestors lived there at one time :)
JL
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There is not a letter V in the Welsh Alphabet.
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Of course there isn't - we're talking about pronounciations and as it was spelled before everything became PC.
When I lived in Wales the single Fs were all written as Vs :)
Read what I said carefully :)
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I'm pleased I've got my regular help now!lol
I was thrown a bit by the 1891 entry you gave but given that the 1881 entry gives Samuel's birth as c 1847,this family of an Edward and Sarah Jones living in Vron with a son Samuel given as born in Chirk in c 1848 in the 1851 Census looks very interesting.
HO107/1993/794/17.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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We really need Gadget, WR ;D ;D ;D
I did find a Samuel Jones with parents Joseph and ? in 1861 in Erthig (Erddig ;)) - born Chirk in 1853. I'll go check it out again and put up a ref just in case.
My Chirk Bpts finish at 1845 so they're not much help.
JL
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In 1861:
RG9/4285/45/3
and WR's find in 1861:
RG9/1880/88/16
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I think your's looks the best bet, WR :)
I looked through the census pages and it is the Fron that I mentioned in Penyclawdd- next set of houses are Wern which is up there.
So, I'd say they lived along Stryt y Veri :)
JL
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Wow, all this is great, more than I had hoped for.
The OS map is very interesting and certaintly in the area.
I had been frustrated not finding Samuel in the 1861 census as his birth place had thrown me a little but I'll look on the records you have found.
Thanks again, Happy New Year- well almost!
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Blwyddyn Newydd Dda :)
I think it is the Samuel that William found and he did have brothers who might be in my records so I'll check for them and for a possible marriage.
I've got to go do some festive cooking now but will be back later or early next year ;D
JL
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Well the Edward and Sarah could be interesting as Samuel and Elizabeth named their first two children Sarah and Edward.
Happy New Year.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hi William and JL
I think this is the Samuel I am looking for and I would be very interested to know if some names in JL's tree cross.
It really is remarkable how christian names pass on. Ironically, I'm a Sarah and my own eldest son's middle name is Edward, although all this information was unknown at the time. Samuel is my gggrandfather.
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda
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Found "Fron Frien" on a c1870 OS map. It looks to me like an area, rather than an individual property.
Attached a section showing it (top left) in relation to Chirk. If you would like an enlargement of the area, or if it's not clear enough, let me know.
Tecwyn.
Deleted the map as I fear that I was breaching copyright. (02/01/2011)
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On a modern map (OS256) it's precisely where Fron Isaf appears; just to the south of Froncysyllte.
Tecwyn.
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Hi powderpuff,there is a property in Froncysyllte a cottage called vron villiars,it is in the location of the old Quarry, regards Annun
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Hello Tecwyn
It looks as if it's very close to where i linked my map.
Could you give me the ref please
I think the best thing now is for me to have a good look at my Chirk/Llangollen parish records :)
JL
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I'm not very good at map references, but try 273403.
If you look at Google maps, find Froncysyllte then scroll almost due south until you find a section of road, including a junction, that looks like a twisted letter "h" (lower case). In the sattellite view you'll see a cluster of buildings.
Hope this helps,
Tecwyn.
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Hi Tecwyn
Thank you :) but if you look at my earlier map ref, that's where I found it
I think I'll just look at my parish records :)
JL
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Hello again
i've just been looking at my Chirk records and I've found all three of Samuel's pre-1845 siblings' baptisms ~
They are listed as living at Caegwinion/Caeaugwynion, located on the map here just to the south of the original Fron map point that I posted:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0azy/
3 May 1840 Mary Anne d/o Edward Jones (limeman) and Sarah
29 May 1841 Sarah d/o Edward Jones (labourer) and Sarah
13 Oct 1844 Robert s/o Edward Jones (labourer) and Sarah
In 1851, (WR has given the ref) Sarah is aged 41 and b. Market Drayton, Shropshire (but other censuses have her as b. Chirk) and Edward is 49, b. Chirk.
I've not checked for them on the 1841 but, given their ages, they might have been there with earlier children.
JL
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In 1841, they were still in Vron/Fron HO107/1399/4/16/15
With a 3 year old son, Thomas, and mary, as posted previously
Will look for Thomas's baptism :)
JL
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Will look for Thomas's baptism :)
JL
Here we are:
3 December 1837 Thomas s/o Edward Jones (rockman) and Sarah. Abode - Fron :)
JL
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Have we got Samuel in 1871 because the one we've been looking at is still with his parents - RG10/2784/29/3 Now in New Buildings, Halton/Black Park, Chirk
(Sarah down as b, Market Drayton again!)
Just as an aside, I've noticed that one of the baptism entries has one of my big pencil marks against it so there might be a link. I'll have to check it out and get back.
JL
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From the birth of their first child c 1880 it was late 1870's when Samuel and Elizabeth married.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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While trying to locate a rough time for their marriage, I found another baptism:
19 April 1835 William s/o Edward Jones (rockman) and Sarah of Fron
I don't see any earlier ones but neither do I see a marriage and, as Sarah was probably from Market Drayton originally, they could have married in a number of locations.
I think the best way of finding who she was is to obtain one of the children's birth certs.
JL
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So sorry not to get back to all your messages any earlier but with the new year and family it's been a little tricky to skip off for a few hours despite me wanting too!
Thank you so much to Tecwyn, William & JL and Annun, you have all given me plenty to look into. The OS map is a great help, I can just make out the area but with a modern map it's much easier to see and is very close to where you thought of originally. The cluster of buildings looks promising.
It's a lot to take in initially but with the baptism details it's a huge help and it will certainly keep me busy! It may well be I'll need to order a few b.certs to get the right Sarah and Edward but I really would still be stuck on the first hurdle, so thank you.....until next time
Cheers and happy hunting in 2011
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If you'd like an enlargement of the old map with Fron Freian at centre, it's quite easy, as I have it on disc.
Happy new year and good luck,
Tecwyn. :)
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Hi Tecwyn
I think you might have to send it via other means as it could be subject to Copyright, We have to be very careful with maps :-\
JL
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Oops !! I've done it a few times before and never thought of that :-[ Just read the sleeve and it does say I'm not allowed to post any part of it on the web, use it for commercial gain or loan the disc to anyone else.
It doesn't appear to prevent me from sending it to you by e-mail.
Perhaps the Moderator might like to comment here.
Tecwyn.
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If I may return to an earlier discussion regarding the spellings Vron vs Fron etc., I finally looked at the 1891 census where Vron Viara appears.
I find that the enumerator was called William Michell, so my guess is that this fellow was not Welsh and therefore wrote the name down in the way an Englishman would do; i.e. V not F.
Just a thought.
Tecwyn.
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It could well be that it was Samuel who wrote it down on the individual household schedule wrongly. The enumerator usually just copied into his book what was written on the individual schedule.
We Chirkers weren't always too good at the Welsh language ;) ;D
JL