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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: An65 on Tuesday 04 January 11 22:39 GMT (UK)
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My story starts at the lower (most recent end of the family)
Ann Leman b.1796 Brampton Sfk, d.1878 Boston, LIN, married Thomas Gee Esq of Brothertoft Hall at Brampton in 1822.
She was d/o Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman and Henrietta Jane Anderson of Brampton Hall Suffolk.
Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman was the son of William Orgill and Sarah/Susan? Leman, and her brother Roberts daughter Mary was the sole heir of the Leman surname. By kings order in 1808 the Orgills were allowed to take the Leman surname.
Henrietta Jane Anderson was d/o Sir William Anderson and Anne Maddison.
Naunton and Henrietta were known to have had (apart from Anne):
George - Revd, of Brampton Hall d.1867
Naunton 1792-1818
Robert 1799-1869 Revd, of Brampton Hall prev of Charing Kent, married 1) Isabella Camilla Twysden and 2) Ellen Maria Ross.
Charles 1801-1815/16
William 1802-48 unmarried.
Thomas 1804-1873 married Emily Antonia Guerin in 1848 at Taunton, Devon also a Revd
Elizabeth Mary d.1842 unmarried
Charlotte d.1796
Susan d.1856 unmarried
Harriet d.1884 unmarried
Charlotte no dates married George Barlee
and Frances no dates married Molyneux Shuldham
Am NOT related, just extremely nosey and hope to tie details in with a history of Brothertoft, where Thomas Gee and Ann Leman his wife lived at Brothertoft Hall.
Many thanks. Ann
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Ann
Naunton Thomas Orgill (later Leman)'s mother was Susanne Leman, her parents were William Leman and Sarah Leman who were related. The Robert you refer to (with daughter Mary) was Sarah Leman's brother from memory not Susanne's brother as she didn't have a brother Robert. I don't know anything about Sarah Leman because my interest is through William her husband whose grandmother is a sideline on one of my family trees.
Nicola
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Many thanks, at least now I know who my Sarahs and Susannahs tie up and what to look for :) x
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Any connection to Sir John Leman?
One of Suffolks famous sons.
Born 1544 died 1632 he was a tradesman from Beccles, who became a Lord Mayor of London.
He was the benefactor of the free school in Beccles and today the little Museum in the town is Leman House. The local High School also takes his name.
Unfortunately he never married, never had children - however, he might be a great uncle ?
Pat ...
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Looks like the Wenhaston, Beccles, Letheringham and Hetheringsett families are all related but the information that can be gleaned from published pedigrees and other articles is a bit confusing at times. According to http://www.bigenealogy.com/suffolk/brampton_parish.htm Sir John was the brother of William from whom the other families descend.
William Leman who married Sarah Leman descends from the Letheringham family which go back to John and Theophila Leman, his wife Sarah descends from Thomas Leman of Hetheringsett.
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excellent many thanks!!
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I've been doing research on the Leman family since the late 1960s and can confirm the link with Sir John Leman to the later Orgill Lemans as well as to Charsfield, Letheringham, Wenhaston, Northaw and Aldgate. I have data up until about the 1930s for the Orgill Leman family. It would be so interesting to find the present day descendants!
My own rather indirect link is with the Leman family of Ilketshall St Andrew where others extended the record quite successfully though we haven't yet established a link to the Orgill Lemans!
I should be pleased to hear further news!
Richard
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I'm not sure there are any descendants left in the male line - I've been looking for any for years.
I think only two of the Rev Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman's sons married - Robert (1799-1869) & The Rev Thomas (1804-1873). Thomas died without issue, but Robert married twice and had children by both wives.
By Isabella Twysden he had a son, Naunton (1825-1904), who married Rosa E Ross. They in turn also had a single son, Robert Naunton Leman (1870-1927), who in 1913 married Gertrude Bloomfield. They had just one child, Beryl Twysden Leman, born in 1914: she died without issue in 1999.
By his second wife, Ellen Maria Ross, Robert (d 1869) had four more children, one born posthumously, the other three when he was in his 60s! There was a son, Anderson Thomas John Leman (b 1862) and three daughters. I lost track of Anderson for a long time, but I now believe he moved to Australia in 1885, and died in Queensland in 1935: I've so far been unable to find out if he had a family.
Of the daughters, Maud (1866-1878) & Ethel (1869-1941) died without issue, while Beatrice (c1864-1945) married Frederick Wm South in 1902 - another daughter, "Fanny", is mentioned in her uncle Rev Thos's will, but I suspect this must have been a family nickname for one of the others. Beatrice & Fredk had one son, Frederick Ross Naunton South (1903-1987), an electrician in Yeovil (how are the mighty fallen!); this Frederick seems (from his mother's will) to have had at least one child, a daughter, Lois, living in 1939 - but I've so far failed to find any sign of his marriage or children's birth. I'll go and look for his will when I get a moment.
There are certainly descendants of the Rev Naunton Thomas Orgill Leman's daughter, Frances, who married Commander Molyneux Shuldham, RN, in 1820 (and died in 1866) - there may perhaps be others of the Barlee & Gee families, too, I've not looked into them yet.
I own a pair of 1834 portraits of the Rev Naunton T O Leman & his wife Henrietta, and the reason for my interest. I'll take some photos and post them here another day.
Ossie Bullock
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Yes, very useful information, Ossie, and I can confirm many of your names mentioned though there is much new information too. I must get out all the papers again (no computers when I started!) and will let you and others know if I find more leads. Greats news that you have some portraits and I look forward to seeing them one day.
Richard Oakman
Wanstead, London
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Sooner than you think.....here you go, Richard.
The portraits are by George Sayer (1809-1887), a C19th artist of whom very little is known (and most of that wrong!). He came from Beccles, just up the road from Brampton, and was the youngest son of a local house painter. It seems likely that his 1834 portraits of the well-connected Lemans enabled a move to London. He was a prize-winning student at the Royal Academy schools by 1835, and began exhibiting portraits in London the same year. Like many other very competent Victorian portraitists, however, he faded into obscurity as the new technology of photography took off. Although he still described himself as a portrait painter in 1871, he had stopped exhibiting by 1850, and all his known works seem to date from the 1830s-early 50s.
The portraits were probably painted in celebration of the couple's golden wedding in December 1833 - that of Henrietta shows her proudly displaying her wedding ring. However, there is a small, sad detail: the ring is black-centered, in mourning for their daughter Harriet who had died earlier that year. Indeed, Henrietta's wonderfully detailed aubergine-coloured dress is most probably what was called "half-mourning", generally worn after six months in "full" mourning.
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What a surprise and how wonderful to see the portraits - and the people - after all these years! Thank you so much, Ossie.
Richard
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Thanks Ossie, the portraits are wonderful.
Robert Orgill Leman and Isabella Twysden had four children, as well as Robert Naunton Twysden Leman, they had Frances Henrietta Flora Elizabeth (on the census as Fanny) born 1828 in Brenchley, Kent, Twysden George born 1833 died 1834, and John Thomas Leman born 1836 Brenchley, died Apr Qtr 1857 Elham Registration District. John Thomas is with his father and brother on the 1851 census, while Fanny was with relatives on the 1851 and 1861 census, she is with Robert Naunton and his wife on the 1871 census. She died in Lincolnshire in 1896. I have not come across any children to Thomas and Ann Gee nee Leman, if they had any it looks like they died young as they do not appear on any census with them. So far the only child I have found for George and Charlotte Barlee nee Leman who married apparently in 1821 is a son Naunton Dalling Barlee who was born in 1829 and died in 1838.
Nicola
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Thanks so much for that, Nicola, hugely helpful. Unless Anderson TJ Leman had a family in Australia (and I scarcely know how to begin looking), it looks like the Shuldhams & perhaps the elusive Souths may be the only descendants still around.
Re the connection with Sir John Leman: I'm sure you all know this, but Burke's Landed Gentry (1900 edn) says that the Rev Naunton Thomas Orgill-Leman's mother, Susan Leman, was the 3rd daughter of Thomas Leman of Brampton Hall (which Naunton Thos rebuilt c1796). This Thomas Leman they give as the grandson of Thomas Leman of Brampton, the nephew of Sir John Leman. Naunton Thomas assumed the additional surname of Leman in 1807 "on succeeding to a property left by Mrs Mary Leman of Bury St Edmunds".
The DNB ( http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/16420 ) says it was Sir John who bought the estate of Brampton in 1605. The descent Burke's gives from "Thomas Leman of Brampton, the nephew of Sir John Leman" doesn't tie in with what is shown at British History Online, however. Sir John's heirs are there said to have been two of his elder brother, William's four sons - a younger one, William, who inherited the estate of Warboys, Hunts; and the eldest, John, who would have been his main heir, but dying before his uncle John, the property was inherited by his son, also William. The other two nephews are given as Robert and Philip - no mention of a Thomas. See http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42491 . I suppose Sir John may have had another brother with a son called Thomas to whom he left Brampton, but it's unusual at this time to be spreading your property around quite so widely.
There clearly was a descent from one of Sir John's heirs, as apart from Brampton itself, in 1847 Naunton's eldest son, George, was in possession of a portrait of Sir John, together with his signet ring and desk seal. These are now part of the V&A's collection - see http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O156800/painting-sir-john-leman/ , http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O156802/seal/ and http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O156801/signet-ring/
Ossie
(Osmund Bullock - Putney, London)
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Now that's interesting - slightly to my surprise, as I don't have a subscription, I managed to access the DNB biog of Sir John Leman via a link in his Wiki article. Now, however, it won't let me - either direct or via Wiki.
I did, however, save it while I was there. I don't think I should copy it here for obvious reasons, but if anyone wants to know what it says, send me a PM.
PS Nicola, I've just realised it was you who wondered a month or so ago if I could look for any Zebedee baptisms at St Giles in the Fields. I didn't make it to the LMA before the stocktaking closure, alas, but when I get a chance I will go, and I will see what I can find. Let me know what the the burial is that you're interested in, too - Zebedee again?
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Re the connection with Sir John Leman: I'm sure you all know this, but Burke's Landed Gentry (1900 edn) says that the Rev Naunton Thomas Orgill-Leman's mother, Susan Leman, was the 3rd daughter of Thomas Leman of Brampton Hall (which Naunton Thos rebuilt c1796). This Thomas Leman they give as the grandson of Thomas Leman of Brampton, the nephew of Sir John Leman. Naunton Thomas assumed the additional surname of Leman in 1807 "on succeeding to a property left by Mrs Mary Leman of Bury St Edmunds".
Not sure Burke's Peerage is correct about Susan Leman's father, I have her as the daughter of William Leman and his wife Sarah Leman (whose father I think was a Thomas) baptised at Brampton in 1734. She had a younger brother William Naunton Leman who died as an infant in 1738 at Beccles. Her paternal great grandmother was Theophilla Naunton whose mother was Mary Coke a descendant of Sir Edward Coke, the Lord Chief Justice who fell out with James I and ended up in the Tower of London (Sir Edward was the nephew of one of my ancestors hence the interest in that line). I know I found the published sources confusing at the time but I'm pretty sure that's correct and Burkes isn't. The names Naunton and Theophila do follow that line through.
Ossie if you could have a look at St Giles in the Fields for Zebedee that would be wonderful, they are few and far between in the immediate London area and all I know is from the non-conformist birth registrations for my ancestor and his siblings that there grandfather was a John Zebedee. Add to that the fact a John Zebedee of St Giles, a shoemaker, married at the Fleet and the fact my ancestor was one (although his father I think was a smith) and I'm clutching at a few straws but that's often the best way. The burial I am after is actually for a William Archer about 1784/5 as his wife and two children were removed from that parish back to Devizes and, as I can't find a burial on ancestry for St Marylebone where they also were, I suspect it may be in St Giles in the Fields. No rush, unfortunately health issues stop me from getting down to London at present, along with another dose of unemployment so it shall otherwise have to sit on the back burner for a while.
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I have found further detail on the Leman family in the National Archives (no doubt known to most of you). Title Deeds and Estate Papers of the Nyn Park Estate, Northaw, Hertfordshire, 1576-1923:
Amongst several papers of the family were:
Marriage Settlement (Lease and Release) DE/X22/28976-7 16th May 1683
Seals - Poor or gone
Contents:
1 Sir Wm Leman of Northaw, bart, Dame Mary his wife & Mansell their son.
2. Lucy daughter of Rd Alie of St Dunstan in the East, Esq. 3. Sir Ed Mansell of Margham, Glamorgan, Rd Alie & John Mansell of Northaw, gents, Ed Watts of London, merchant, Peter Joy of London, merchant, Charles Knipe of Lt Chelsey, Kensington, Mddx, gent & Sir Thos Davall of London, knight.
(£6,000 portion.)
Manor of Warboys, Hunts (described.)
Manor of Northaw, Manor of Rampton, Cambs (described)
Witnesses - Hy Alie.
Fan Leman ?
Ed Leman.
Alice Jenings.
Susanna Alie.
John Owen.
Sam Wyseman
Copy Will DE/X22/28978 17th November, 1692
Contents:
Of Sir William Leman, bart. Buried in family vault, £10 to the poor, coach, horses & silver to wife absolutely, furniture for life, then to heir male inheriting Northaw. Daughters Rebecca & Sarah £2,000. £100 to all the children of daughter Theodotia (Mrs Lewis Newncham.) Brothers John, of Northaw, Edward citizen of London, Tanfield, of Inner Temple, trustees of Manor of Barnes called Goodmans Fields in St Botolph Without, Whitechapel & Stepney to pay debts & legacies and subject thereto to William son of his eldest son Mansell (deceased) in tail male. Wife sole executor.
Proved 8th September 1701
Deed to Bar Entail DE/X22/28979-80 31st March, 1708
Contents:
Sir Wm Leman of Northaw (the grandson) & Fine.
Property, etc. Settled Estates
Copy Will DE/X22/28981 1st November, 1712
Contents:
Of Sir William Leman, bart, burial & legacy to poor as in grandfathers will. On grandmother Dame Mary's death Northaw devolves on his mother Lucy & the manor of Wardeboyse (Worboys) Hunts passes from Lucy to him now devised to her for life & the Manor of Rampton & lands in Cottenham & Wellingham, Cambs. Northaw to cousin Richard Alie of Mincing Lane, with Warboys & Rampton, in tail male, remainder to successor of the Leman family. £3,000 charged for Lucy Alie, his sister. Alie to take the name of Leman. Warboys charged with £100 pa to cousin Hickford-Leman & £40 to his cousins brother Robert Leman. £100 for a ring to Brian Fairfax Esq of Westminster. Cousin Robert to have the living of Warboys. Rd Lockwood, Esq, £20 for a ring. Residue to mother as sole executrix.
Proved 2nd. April 1742 (Lucy Leman & Dame Anna Margaretta Leman deceaseds widow having renounced) by Richard Alie
Hope this adds to the picture! Richard Oakman
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Thanks Richard, interesting.
Going through Harwich for the umpteenth time looking for something else (although first time online) and found the marriage of William Leman gent (son of William Leman and Elizabeth Sterling) and Sarah Leman gent (daughter of Thomas) marrying 9 Oct 1727. Makes you wonder why they married there as both were from Suffolk???
Nicola
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Not sure Burke's Peerage is correct about Susan Leman's father, I have her as the daughter of William Leman and his wife Sarah Leman (whose father I think was a Thomas) baptised at Brampton in 1734. ... I know I found the published sources confusing at the time but I'm pretty sure that's correct and Burkes isn't. ...
Sorry, Nicola, it was me that was wrong, not Burke's - I miscopied what it said in BLG. The actual quote is, "Lineage- THE REV. NAUNTON THOMAS ORGILL, of Brampton Hall, b. 11 Dec 1759 (son of William Orgill, of Beccles, and SUSAN LEMAN his wife, 3rd dau. and co-heir of William Leman, by Sarah his wife, dau. of Thomas Leman, of Brampton Hall, grandson of Thomas Leman, of Brampton, nephew of SIR JOHN LEMAN (see BURKE'S Extinct Baronetage)....". The Leman Baronetcy was not, of course, held by Sir John himself - it was granted in 1665 to his nephew William....or great nephew William according to some sources, though I think that’s wrong.
Here are two versions, Burke’s Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies 1838:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h8n/
And Cockayne’s Complete Baronetage 1904:
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924092524408#page/n7/mode/2up (see pp7-9)
Cockayne is normally as reliable as it gets – he was very thorough – but he’s only interested in the main line of descent for the title. Burke gives more collateral detail, some of which is useful and probably right - including another nephew of Sir John called Thomas - but I think he’s wrong about who the 1st Baronet was. This may well have been corrected in later editions – Cockayne had an extra 60 years to get to the bottom of it.
I’ll certainly have a look for your St Giles in the Fields entries when I finally make it to the LMA, though I’m not at all sure when that’ll be.
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Hi Ossie
No worries, I had enough problems trying to get my head around who was who last year when I was looking at the Naunton-Leman-Orgill line. The PCC Wills available, of which there are quite a few, added to the confusion since a number didn't spell out the exact family relationship. ::) It took me a while to work out the exact relationships for William Leman and Sarah Leman and then to their daughter Susanne. I always thought that a number of the published sources relating to Susanne's father had to be wrong because I had followed forwards the line from the marriage of John Leman and Theophila Naunton and knew there wasn't a Thomas involved. Got their eventually. Sadly I've come across quite a few inaccurate published sources over the years so just shows that you have to check everything whether published by an authority or not. ;)
If you go back a couple of generations to William Leman and Sarah Leman's family, there are definately descendents coming forward to recent decades. Descending from their daughter Theophila who married Thomas Rede from Beccles, such as the Astley Coopers and also the descendants of Leman Thomas Rede.
Nicola
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The portraits are by George Sayer (1809-1887), a C19th artist of whom very little is known (and most of that wrong!).....Like many other very competent Victorian portraitists, however, he faded into obscurity as the new technology of photography took off. Although he still described himself as a portrait painter in 1871, he had stopped exhibiting by 1850, and all his known works seem to date from the 1830s-early 50s.
The above was until 10 minutes ago mainly conjecture, but it seems I was right - just discovered he was imprisoned for debt in 1860, poor man.
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I noticed the most charming photos of your oil paintings of Naunton Thomas Orgill-Leman and his wife
Henrietta Jane Orgill-Leman and wondered if you would be kind enough to please confirm the size, details of the frames if original and if possible send a higher resolution image – my email is (*).
The reason for my interest is although I have no blood connection with the Orgill-Leman I have just bought Brampton Hall and would ideally like to have both of these oil paintings professionally reproduced to hang together in one of the principal rooms at Brampton Hall as these two really should not be forgotten and ideally remain an integral part of the property. It may be of interest to you Brampton Hall was described by the selling agents (Savills) as [sic] ‘the quint-essentially Georgian country house overlooking its own magnificent parkland in a wonderfully totally unspoilt part of Suffolk', Grade II-listed Brampton Hall at Brampton, seven miles south of Beccles on the Norfolk/Suffolk border, hasn't been on the market for over 40 years. The particularly imposing and beautifully proportioned Georgian Gentleman’s country house, built in 1796 of fine red brick under a glazed black pantile roof for the Rev Naunton Thomas Orgill-Leman, whose family had long been associated with the area.
Dr. Michael A. Stevens
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I'm so sorry, Dr Stevens, I've only just seen your very interesting post. As you probably realise, the email address you provided has had to be removed, so I am about to send you a PM with mine. We have things to discuss.
I am extremely happy that Brampton Hall has a new owner with such an interest in its history - not the fate, alas, of many fine old houses, and Brampton is a fine one indeed. Congratulations on the purchase: the house is lucky to have found you.
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A slightly annoying postscript to the story of my 1834 portraits of the Rev Naunton T O Leman & his wife Henrietta, and the new owner of their house, Brampton Hall.
I eventually managed to get hold of Dr Stevens through the estate agents - Rootschat rules had not allowed him to leave his email address on here, nor to contact me by PM; and by the time I tried to PM him he was presumably no longer paying attention! Unfortunately he turned out to be a man who likes to move things on quickly...within a month or two - and before I reached him - he'd already had his copies painted from the images I'd posted on here.
As a result, although interested to see them, he has no interest in acquiring the originals - which is rather a nuisance as I'd love to have sold them to him!
Let that be a lesson to everyone - do NOT post high-resolution images online if you want them to remain within your control...in fact they are now also to be seen as stock images on various Chinese websites offering hand-painted reproductions of paintings!
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May I lower the tone of this thread for one moment?
There lived in Fressingfield one Elisha Seaman/Seman who can be found on the 1841 and '5 censuses (or censi if you're a purist). On Ancestry, his 1851 cross reference has been given an alternative of Leman by a subscriber.
I was wondering if this could be one of the remote twiglets of this illustrious tree?
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Diplodicus, 'Leman' (or Leaman in the 1841, where the difference between the enumerator's 'L' & 'S' is clearer) is certainly the correct reading - he's clearly the Elijah [sic] Leman, son of Thomas Leman & Phebe Hunter, baptised with his brother William at Fressingfield on 25 Sep 1808. You'll already have found all this, I'm sure, but Thomas married Phoebe Hunton at Metfield on 13 Aug 1805 - his age in the '51 Census suggests a birth year of c1769, that in the '41 as c1771-76, but ages of the elderly were of course very shaky in those days (and the '51 didn't know his birthplace, so I'd take the age of 81 with a pinch of salt). It's interesting that in 1841 father Thomas is spelt 'Lemon', while son Elisha is 'Leaman' - presumably they pronounced it differently, and the enumerator wrote what he heard.
The '41 says he was born in the county, so despite the distance (30+ miles) I would have said he could be the Thomas Leman, son of John & Mary, baptised at Semer on 4 June 1775. However that Thomas married someone else (Sarah Hill) in 1795, and although the last of their children was baptised before Thomas & Phoebe married, another source suggests his wife Sarah did not die until 1810, which must rule him out. And besides, although Thomas of Semer's forbears are traceable back several generations, they came from Lavenham...which is really in the wrong direction if we're trying to find a link with the Beccles family!
So to get (finally) to your question, there seem to be plenty of Lemans/Lemons in many parts of Suffolk. Sir John's family were in the Beccles area in the early C16th, and probably long before. Beccles is only 12 or 15 miles from Metfield/Fressingfield; and although I fear you'll never prove it, I would frankly be be surprised if your Lemans were NOT distant cousins of the posh lot! But you may never know whether they branched off before the other family clawed their way up in the world, or are descended from a junior branch that gradually slipped back down. Downward social mobility must be quite as common as the upward variety, but of course it is seldom recorded - one occasionally gets reminded of this mathematical necessity when an Australian bus driver unexpectedly inherits an earldom from a distant relation...and a former Garter King of Arms, Sir Anthony Wagner, convincingly calculated that in the early 1960s there had to be around 2 million living descendants of Edward III!!
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Thank you osmposm. I had just started on this particular twiglet so your knowledge is most gratefully received.
Malcolm