RootsChat.Com

Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Hillgell on Saturday 08 January 11 20:58 GMT (UK)

Title: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Hillgell on Saturday 08 January 11 20:58 GMT (UK)
Does anyone know anything about these families who were based in Cumbria (around Cockermouth)and Ulverston in the first part of the 19th century?  They were mainly earthenware and glass sellers, but the families had links into horse trading.  The families were very closely linked and wherever there's a Stewart on the census there's a Young nearby.  The families moved down to Blackburn and other parts of E Lancs in the 1880s. My great grandfather was Charles Stewart married to Sarah Young, but I'm not sure which Charles, as there are several. They used caravans to travel round (my grandmother remembered visiting them), but were based in houses.  I'd be grateful for any info.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: rob g on Sunday 09 January 11 11:43 GMT (UK)
hi, hillgel, the stewart family you are tracing are relatives of mine, they are related to the millers olso, and used to live in ulveston. in a place called the gill, up the top of the market cross. i viseted them  45 years ago and still remember them there is one relation issack stewart, living not far from me now in carlisle, he has a caravan site the youngs and stewarts were horse and scrap dealers as well as car traders. they are still trading in kendal you can see the ad in yellow pages. they are first cousin to my mother, and there are lots of youngs and stewarts still living in caravans. they are a very old romany name, they sold china and earthenwares,as did my own family the mitchells from barrow in furness, in fact they were related in marriage?the stewarts also went to live in penrith. and allthough not scots by birth,old jimmy stewart my mams first cousin went on to live and have a family in scotland where his decendents still travell  and live a romany life,see if you cannot find the miller and mitchell connections. also my youngest son wed a gypsy girl last year she is a harrison and relarted to the stewarts in ulveston?small world!
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Hillgell on Sunday 09 January 11 20:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Rob, 
Thanks for your prompt reply.  I was surprised to hear the families were Romany, as my grandmother always insisted they weren't, just travellers!!  Now I've looked it up Young is a big Romany name, but not so much Stewart.  My gt gt gdfather was Charles Stewart, but 2 were born in Ulverston a few yrs apart and I don't know which is mine-he married Sarah Y :)oung daughter of John and Jane.  My branch of the Youngs came from near Wigton and spent some time around Cockermouth and Broughton before moving to Blackburn.

I haven't seen any of the names you mentioned-it just looks like Stewarts marrying Youngs!  but both branches of the families settled in Blackburn and most eventually became weavers.  One family that are connected are the Bucks who were horse dealers in Hawes.  There is a grave with a horse's head on it in the church yard there.  It's the grave of William Buck who married Mary Ann Young.  Don't know if you've heard of that family.
Anyway thanks again for the info.
Hillary
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: rob g on Monday 10 January 11 10:53 GMT (UK)
hi, hillgell, yes i know the buck family, they sold eathenwares and were/ still are hawkers in fact i stayed next to william buck in my trailer. on a travellers site in skipton yorks 2 years ago. bill still hawks carpets, he is a very nice type, we have known his family for genarations. as to the traveller name thing, we we allways known as travellers, but when the new age thing came on the scene, for centurys we had tried to get away from the gypsy name. so we had to tell others that we were not new age travellers, but romany travellers, that go back many hundreads of years, we now dont mind the romany connection, but the older,travellers did the best they could to hide that fact.and would say to the gorgios(non romany) that they were just travelling. it as taken over thirty years for us to be able to use the name romany/gypsy. without some shame about it? a point in case is the amount of people that have contacted me saying that the family had tried to hide all gypsy or traveller conections, one old lady in wales had emigrated to canada to get away from the stigma, and her g.daughter was tring to find her traveller romany roots. sad old world is it not!just recently i was told i would not be served in my local because the landlord had found out i was a romany ! i have lived in a house for twentyfive years but still travel,never been in bother, and you would be amazed at the predudice that still is out there so that one or two of the reasons that the older folk would rather called travellers, but on the other hand a traveller would take real offence at the term gorgio,or flaty if it were used for them.anyway no more history,hope you find your links, and (cushty bok(good luck in romany,by the way if you go to scottish people site, you will find hundreds of stewarts mainly tinkerhawker or or traveller romany folk,  ..rob
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Hillgell on Monday 10 January 11 20:06 GMT (UK)
Hi again Rob,

Well I didn't really know I came from Romany stock (a bit diluted), but it's quite exciting to find out!  I'm sorry you've had to face prejudice because of it.  People shouldn't judge others on face value or preconceived ideas and perhaps some of the judges should look into their own pasts, they might be surprised to find out where they came from!!

Presume the William Buck may be related to the one with the gravestone, but he must be the grandson as that one died in the 1930s. 
Hillary
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: youngjo on Wednesday 09 February 11 09:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Hillgell,

You have come to the right place for information.....I got a lot of help a month back trying to trace my connections.
My name is Young and my ggrandparents were John T. Young and Rachel Miller(Carlisle) and they lived in Hexham

Found this down the line and may be connected to your family...it is a stab in the dark

here is William (JT father) marriage to Elizabeth Stewart
Marriages Sep 1884   Hexham  10b 373 
 Coates  William     
Moorhead  Margaret     
Stewart  Elizabeth       
Young  William   

It may not be connected but ill have a look for those names in the info I got.
Joanne



Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Hillgell on Friday 11 February 11 20:32 GMT (UK)
Jo-thanks for your interest and help.

Don't know if our families are connected but that pair of names keep cropping up.
My 3xgt grandfather was John Young born in Wigton nr Carlisle in 1816.  He lived around Cockermouth for some yrs and then many of the family moved down to Blackburn, but went back to Cumbria from time to time.  One of his sons was called William, but he was born in 1848, a bit old to be married in 1884.  I will try and follow him up.  (Haven't seen a mention of him moving down).
My 2x gt grandma was his daughter Sarah who married Charles Stewart from Ulverston and her brother Jacob married Margaret Stewart, Charles' sister!

Sounds like you are connected to Rob, who wrote to me earlier's, Romany family of Millers.  If you see this, Rob, my Charles Stewart's parents in Ulverston I've now found, were George and Ann.

Do you know if your family were travellers or Romanies, Jo?  My father thinks that his grandmother Nancy Stewart was born in a caravan, tho her birth is registered to an addess in Cockermouth. 
I find it all fascinating!
Hillary
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: youngjo on Monday 14 February 11 09:50 GMT (UK)
Hi Hillary,
 I found out so much here but still no direct way to tell if my family were romany gypsies....my grandad left his family and moved away from them in the 1950s and had his own family but never spoke of his family to my dad so he never knew. They were all hawkers/pedlars or horse dealers and seemed to move around a bit, they were all very sallow skninned and my grandad was very dark and my dad is too.....I know its not much to go on but I believe either my grandad didnt want people to know he was a gypsy and that was the reason for all the mystery! Hope you find out more concrete clues than I have . Some of my dad rlatives are alive but we dont know them well enough as dad only found out he had relatives on his fathers side very recently, hopefully they will fill us in and all the pieces of the jigsaw can be put together.....I hope they can as I feel its sad that we still dont know and over the years I awlays asked Dad to find out...

joanne xxx
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: rob g on Monday 14 February 11 18:32 GMT (UK)
hi, again hillery, hello jo, when you try to trace romany travellers it is allways hard, as we are a secretive people. even today we have to keep our race to ourself, as it can cause problems,both in the business and private life. so it is not hard to see why we dont talk about some things, we do  and can pass for a gorgio /non traveller/, sometimes this is because we want to, and sometimes to get away from the predudice that follows us even in this day and age, lots of the older romany folk would not mention any thing about the ethnic race etc. also when the war was on in 1940 my mother was told not to say she was a gypsy becouse we knew what was going on in the death camps, long before the general public. so hiding your race or past was, and still is a part of gypsy life. hope you find what your after jo, and lots of romany are fair skinned, the eastern european gypsy are roma and dark, western europe romany are of the sinte clan, and nearly all british romany are the rom people, also light skinned, but there are dark ones too, cushty bok.  rob..
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: youngjo on Monday 14 February 11 21:16 GMT (UK)
thanks for that rob g, totally understandable that you have to live your life sometimes not telling people your true identity because of the prejuduces that are there, very sad and I feel a loss for everyone as non gypsy people would learn alot form romany gypsy life. I hope you will be around if i need some more help tracing my family 
jo x
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Jackie M on Tuesday 15 February 11 23:50 GMT (UK)
Hi. Just picked up your posts.  I'm from the Miller family still alive and well in Cumbria!  Hillgell - the Nancy Stewart you mention is one of the realtives of ours.  We are connected the the Youngs, Stewarts and Morrisons as well as the Millers - all Hawkers, tin smiths and dealers from the West of Cumbria.

Pleased to hear the site in Carlisle still has a few of our relatives.  Heard about the site at a family funeral in the Isle of Man recently and found some old photos of our family on the site.

It'd be 'barie' to hear from any kin!


Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: youngjo on Wednesday 16 February 11 09:47 GMT (UK)
Hi Jackie M - Great to hear from you...i have spent the last few nights trawling family search sites to trace back the Millers......Im in work now and left all my notes at home but the name Jacob Miller is my gggrangfather and possible a Jacob Miller is his father too...does this name ring any bells to you...my great great grandfather was a George Miller and agian i have the details at home poss p.o.b would be Cockermouth, Cumberland?

regards

Jo
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Jackie M on Wednesday 16 February 11 10:29 GMT (UK)
Hi Jo

Nice to hear from you.  I've got a few days off work so thought i'd pick up the family tree.  We've got quite a few Jacob Millers but no George Millers that i've come across yet.  We have cousins still living in Cockermouth who are Young's so we can ask about.  Let me know when you have your notes and we can do some digging.

Jackie

Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: youngjo on Wednesday 16 February 11 10:54 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jackie M,
I will get all my bits n pieces together and see if there is any connection...Its hard to find info on the women in the family tree as I can never trace their maiden names or very rarely. Our relatives could be cousins  if we make the right connection......my Young relatives seemed to have been based in or around Hexham, North. Looking forward to hearting more and finding out more ...
Jo x
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Hillgell on Wednesday 16 February 11 20:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Rob, Jo and Jackie (the numbers grow!)

First of all, Rob, thanks for all of your background info.  Didn't know there were different knds of Romanies-thought they were all Roma.  Like Jo's, my family are the dark-skinned, dark haired types.  My Dad had lovely dark curly hair when young, and people often think I'm from the Mediterranean.  One more thing my Dad said about his grandmother, don't know if it's a Romany thing, but she knew how to lay out the dead, and was often asked to do so by neighbours.

Jo, I will look more into John Young next week, when I'm on holiday (I'm a teacher).  I got distracted by my husband.  He was fed up of me researching my family tree and asked me to start his and it's just got to the interesting stage!

Jackie, it would be great if we were connected.  My Nancy was born in Cockermouth in Dec 1878, her mother Sarah Young likewise in 1852.  Charles Stewart was born in Ulverston in 1851.  Unfortunately there was another Charles Stewart from Ulverston, about the same age, married to a Sarah with a daughter called Nancy, but they settled in Kendal, whereas my lot including Sarah's parents and some brothers moved down to Blackburn.

Would be grateful for any more info.

All the best, Hillary
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: youngjo on Wednesday 23 February 11 10:13 GMT (UK)
Jackie M -
I was just reading back over this post and realised you have Miller connections!!....My Great Grandmoher was Rachel Miller bron in Carlise 1892 and married my Great Grandfater John T Young from Hexham Norhtumberland in 1915. Found all this out just recently as my Grandfather left the area for London in the 1950's and never returned.

Miller Jacob Age 30 b Cumberland - Penrith Occupation (General Dealer)
Miller Mary Ann Wife 26 B Lancashire
Miller Ann dau 8 b Cumberland - Cockermouth
Miller George (my gg grandfather???) 4 born Cumberland - Carlisle
Miller William 2 born cumberland - carlisle
Miller Jacob 5 months old born in Scotland.


this is a record from 1861 Census....I was just wondering do any of the names look familiar or do you have any info on the these Millers?  They may well my Rachel's fathers family but im not sure, there is another record which could possibly be it!
Ill try dig that out and paste in here in a bit...found it

1891 for Rachels parents
16 Jane Street Caldegate
George Miller   28 general hawker
Mary J    26
Richard    8 scholar
John W    2
George H one month
all born Carlisle except Mary Jane b. Brampton

Rachel hadnt been born yet so think this might be the gang as the ages and occupations add up
Im finding it difficult to find any traces?

Hope you can shed some light....

Jo
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Hillgell on Friday 04 March 11 17:04 GMT (UK)
Don't know if you are all out there, but I've been doing some more work on my family.

I followed up my Youngs, but couldn't see a connection to Jo's, but I also sent off for my gt gt grandmother Sarah Stewart (nee Young's) birth cert, and guess what-her mother was Jane Miller before she got married! 
Checked on the IGI and found her christening at Kirkbride nr Cockermouth, father Jacob Miller.  Was there a Romany camp at Kirkbride??
Has anyone else found anything?

Best wishes,
Hillary
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: GarryMcCallum on Sunday 20 March 11 13:09 GMT (UK)
Hi. Just picked up your posts.  I'm from the Miller family still alive and well in Cumbria!  Hillgell - the Nancy Stewart you mention is one of the realtives of ours.  We are connected the the Youngs, Stewarts and Morrisons as well as the Millers - all Hawkers, tin smiths and dealers from the West of Cumbria.

Pleased to hear the site in Carlisle still has a few of our relatives.  Heard about the site at a family funeral in the Isle of Man recently and found some old photos of our family on the site.

It'd be 'barie' to hear from any kin!






Hi Jackie

My G,Great Grandfather was from Kendal and lived around Carlisle. His name was Joseph Moorhead and he and his full Family were all Hawkers and lived around Carlisle 1840s-1900s. On the census reports they were all living around Rigg Street. Do you know if any "Moorheads" are still living around this area that might be decendants??


Kind Regards

Garry
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: GarryMcCallum on Sunday 20 March 11 13:18 GMT (UK)
F:A:O Rob G

I'm glad that i found this post.. I come from a long line of Travellers I am decended from the McCallums. In my main blood line i have McCallums & Stewarts that all married in to each others family lots of times; ie First Cousins marrying first Cousins.  I also have Mclarens & McPhee's in my line. My family are all from Scotland and they lived Around the Dumbartonshire & Stirlingshire areas! They all lived in Bow tents and were mainly Hawkers,Basket Maker & Tinsmiths. Could you tell me if you know of any McCallums or Stewarts that are up here in Scotland and are still part of the Travelling community, If you know of any could you please put me in touch. My Grandfather was the last in our family to live the traditional way, He was born in a Tent on Shewalion Moor, but later settled in a house.

Hope to hear from you soon

Kind Regards

Garry McCallum

Moderator Comment:  Email address removed to prevent spamming and other abuse.   Please use our personal message system to exchange such information.
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Neil Loughran on Sunday 11 February 18 00:55 GMT (UK)
Very happy to have found this thread.  I am from Barrow in Furness in Cumbria (now living in Norway) and started my family tree search a good decade ago.  Charles Stewart married Sarah Young or Lowther (I believe Lowther was her mothers name and Young was her fathers : Isaac Young was the name I had found but I could be wrong there.). 

My own connection is that my grandmother was Mary Stewart (born in Ulverston) and Charles was her grandfather.  I've seen the family tree up to Charles and beyond since the 1970s so I know it to be accurate as I guess it was put together via my ancestors.   I recall mention of the gypsy heritage... but I was only just reminded upon reading this thread.

I attach an actual chart that is based on or actually was on my grandmother's wall well into the 1980s (I seem to recall it even in 70s but looks like it was printed out on some inkjet printer)

Unfortunately it seems Charles was not such a nice guy... I'll save the details here but I've managed to find all manner of accounts and newspaper articles...   now saying that there seems to be a lot of Charles Stewarts around... so who knows for sure which Charles is which.. ;)

One other thing... my grandmother died of Huntingtons disease and I am wondering if that is a Stewart trait or not.  Anyway, very open to make connections on this.

Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: GarryMcCallum on Sunday 11 February 18 08:39 GMT (UK)
Hi Neil,

Thanks for sharing your info.
I see that you have people born in Kendal.

I also have a direct bloodline who all lived around this area. They were the Moorheads.

Can you tell me if you have this family in your tree?

Garry,
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: Neil Loughran on Sunday 11 February 18 08:51 GMT (UK)
Hi Neil,

Thanks for sharing your info.
I see that you have people born in Kendal.

I also have a direct bloodline who all lived around this area. They were the Moorheads.

Can you tell me if you have this family in your tree?

Garry,

Hi Garry,

Could not see anything when I checked on my ancestry page sorry.

Best regards
Neil
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: BellaMiller on Monday 28 January 19 22:00 GMT (UK)
Hi im new here, i am a Miller decendant, gg father William Miller ( Hawker / general dealer ) ggg grandfather Jacob Miller,
Title: Re: Stewart and Young hawker families
Post by: RichardMillerScotland on Tuesday 16 June 20 12:11 BST (UK)
Hi

My name is Richard Miller. I live in Kinross, Scotland. I have been tracing back and can get all the way back to George Miller 1861 who is also my great great grandfather and his wife Mary J Mason. After that on our side Richard Miller born 1883, died 1912 Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Then his son Richard born 1910 Cowdenbeath, Scotland died Kinross 1988. My grandad died also Richard Miller 1993, aged 55. My dad Ian Miller also died 2001, aged 34 when I was young. I too have jet black hair and tanned skin. As my dad and grandad died it means alot to me to find out as much on info on Miller side as possible. Also glad to hear there are others out the looking. Also agree would be "barrie" to speak to any of you. Cheers