RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: still-searching on Sunday 16 January 11 19:57 GMT (UK)
-
I have the Christian name of Menel used as a 2nd Christian name in my Welsh tree. They also gave him a 3rd Christian name of Bateman (that does relate to family). I have tried to find out where this could have originated and have found nothing that's helpful.
I know it's a long shot but does anyone have any ideas, other than a long past family name that I haven't found, which was resurrected in 1867.
It's not a life and death question but it has been bugging me for a couple of years.
Thanks.
-
Hi
Have you got any locations, dates , etc. that might help us help you?
JL
-
Yes sorry :(
Joseph Menel Bateman Knight b 1867 Chorlton, Manchester
Father: Thomas Knight b 1841 Great Budworth, Cheshire
Mother: Ann Jones b. 1836 Bala, Merioneth
Joseph's grandmother Ann(e) Bateman b 1805 Abergele
Joseph's grandfather William Knight b 1805 Great Budworth, Cheshire
census ref:
RG10/ 3993/ 35 p15
C & P removed
Additional info: Gwen Jones is Ann's sister who went to live as a servant with her sister when she married.
Does this give you enough?
Thanks
-
Hi
This looks like them in 1851 in Bala
HO107/2510/141/32
Do you have access to the 1851?
Parents - Evan (53, b. Llangower) and Jane (46, b.Ruthin)
I'll see if I can find Evan in Llangower as I have the records.
JL
-
Thanks JL. I can't get back further than Evan Jones (spelt Ifan on Ann's marriage cert) his occupation was stated as gardener (I am a little dubious about that).
C & P removed
HO107/2510/141 p 32
Again I am doubtful about Evan's occupation as an Hostler
-
Hi
Yes that is the one which I referred to.
It might be best if you don't cut and paste from Ancestry - it's not really allowed . You should type out from the original page :-\
I'll look up Evan tomorrow.
JL
-
Whooops I didn't know.
Thanks for your help, any further info would be wonderful.
-
Hello again
I think that this might be Evan Jones's baptism:
Llangower 25 March 1794 Evan s/o Evan Jones and Elizabeth
There is also this one but a bit later:
15 Oct 1798 Evan s/o Thomas Jones and Margaret * see next posting
It doesn't help with the Menel name though :-\
I see from the 1841 and 51 censuses that Evan and Jane had the following daughters ~
Hannah, Margaret, Elizabeth, Ann, Jane, Gwen and Mary which means that either of the baptisms might be him!
I've also checked the Names from Clwyd site http://www.namesfromclwyd.org.uk/ which lists all the surnames mentioned in the parish transcripts produced by the Clwyd FHS, covering the area. I don't see Menel or anything similar listed.
This bit on origins - http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Menel
JL
-
Thanks JL. I can't get back further than Evan Jones (spelt Ifan on Ann's marriage cert) his occupation was stated as gardener (I am a little dubious about that).
C & P removed
HO107/2510/141 p 32.
Again I am doubtful about Evan's occupation as an Hostler
Hi again
I've just looked at the Llanycil (Bala) baptism records and have come up with these that might be of interest to you:
10 June 1828 Hannah b.d. of Evan Jones and Jane Davies - servants
14 Mar 1830 Margaret d/o Evan Jones (ostler) and Jane
8 April 1832 Elizabeth d/o Evan Jones (ostler) and Jane
2 Nov 1834 Anne d/o Evan Jones (ostler) and Jane
Also this marriage:
28 Dec 1829 Evan Jones and Jane Davies, both otp, ba and sp , by Licence. Witnesses - David Jones and Grace Jones
JL
PS - rechecked Evan's age on the 1851. i now think that the 1798 baptism to Thomas Jones and Margaret looks the most likely :)
-
Given that Thomas & Margaret Jones look the most likely parents of Evan, there is this marriage in Llangower:
20 April 1796 Thomas Jones and Margaret Evans (made her mark). Both otp, ba and sp. By Licence. Witnesses - H. Roberts and Edward Jones
I think going back further might be a bit more difficult as many records before that in Llangower use the patronymic - my own ancestors included ::)
JL
-
Thank you JL you are a marvel. That gives me much more to work with.
From what I discovered about the family they appeared pretty poor. Evan seems to have ended up as a servant until his death. Gwen suffered the same fate and was in the workhouse at one point. Ann was very lucky to escape when she married into the Knights.
Thank you again.
-
A wee bit more :D
Baptisms to children of a Thomas and Margaret Jones:
Llangower
6 Jan 1797 John
15 Oct 1798 Evan (as above)
4 Oct 1799 Robert
13 Mar 1801 David
1 Nov 1802 Elizabeth
23 Sep 1804 Thomas
23 Mar 1806 Gwen - possibly died March 1834, aged 28 'of Ceri'
12 Apr 1807 William
16 Dec 1809 Margaret - possibly died May 1829, aged 21 'of Ceri'
12 Feb 1811 Hugh
Outside possible ~
11April 1821 Mary - Thomas described as a labourer. Abode - Ceri - burial April 21 1821
A death/burial of a Margaret Jones, aged 62 of Ceri - 20 Jan 1835 which would make a possible birth of 1773 - no bpt found around this time in Llangower but she could have been from another parish.
Note - these are only tentative as there might have been two Thomas and Margaret Jones having children at the same time.
Also attached is a photo of Llangower Church (St Gwyr) which I took a while ago.
JL
-
Thanks again.
I'll print and compare later. Thanks for the photo :) I visited both Llangower and Llanycil churches last year. Shame one is unsafe and the other in private ownership now, that meant we couldn't enter either.
I know it's daft to try and track the origin of Menel but I was hoping that it would help me get further back. Also, as you know, the surname of Jones isn't the best to research :'(
The utter fairy story which had been passed down through the family is laughable, tinkered with I guess to make them sound more affluent than they were..lol
I really do appreciate your help.
-
Menel seems to be very unusual (compared with our usual Welsh surnames!) I've just put it into a search engine covering all the UK censuses 1841-1901 and have only come up with 21 occurrences (None from where they lived) - 45 as first names ( including Men(n)ell) :-\
Could they have named him after an acquaintance/local dignitary, etc.
JL
Added - there seem to be a lot in Yorkshire
-
What makes me believe it's a family name is their use of Bateman too.
I will search on line newspapers to see if it pops up.
-
Might the original name be a corruption of another, more obvious one , and its the corruption which has survived ?.
A lot of names in rural Wales had biblical origins . I always thought that 'Gomer' was a genuine Welsh name. Apparently its the name of a prophet. I've seen it a lot in Wales , but never in England.
Another possibility - expanding on the previous post - was that the name was in some was associated with an event/prominent person at the time . The late Richard Burton, for instance, had an
older brother called Verdun Jenkins.
-
Hi Huwcyn
I've racked my brains and wondered about this name since it came up (different spellings and Maynel, Mendel (of peas fame who produced his paper in 1866*, etc., etc. )) - I can't think of any alternatives that tie into the family - Have you got any ideas :-\
JL
* Good Welsh education at Llangollen ;D ;D ;D
-
I shall do some more digging over the next couple of days and report back.
Thanks for your help.
-
MENEL
Of the main variants, Meynell comes up quite often. Originally a very old Derbyshire family; subsequently more scattered. Hugo was and is a favourite forename -- an HM was a famous 18th c. MFH, effectively founder of the Quorn (see Wikipedia).
Marginally more relevant, in the Names From Clwyd database (link provided by JL in Reply 7), there are a couple of sub-variants at Wrexham grouped under the Meynell head-name, as follows:
MEYNELL ...
MANNEL ... Wrexham: 10 Jun 1836 bapt George s Thomas (mason) & Charlotte, Broughton
MAYNELS ... Wrexham: John
A John Meynell comes up in the (free-to-view) 1881 census at Dymeirchion, Flints. Birthplace catches the eye: Stretford, Lancs. (ca. 1845).
Scraping the barrel a bit with this one, like the rest of you . . . ;)
Rol
-
Back again :)
Have had no useful results looking through newspapers re the Menel name. I guess I will have to park that again for a while.
Thanks again for the PR postings, I have all the female births, no living males on census records.
Re Evan's parents I guess that Thomas & Margaret will be right but I'll add them with the caveat that it's a 'best guess'.
Thanks again for everyones' help.