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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Cazza47 on Sunday 23 January 11 16:39 GMT (UK)
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I am doing a bit of research for a friend but have hit a bit of a brick wall.
Her mother was born Kitty (kathleen) Langham. Kitty left her daughter with her own mother and she had no further contact. Ann heard from relatives that she was known as Kitty Frangleton.
Kitty Langham was born in Pontypridd, Wales in 1921.
Her mother's maiden name was Llewellyn. I have found a Kitty Frangleton who married a Nerbert Lomax in 1979 in Hyndburn, Lancashire. Strangely her death seems to be registered twice, once as Kitty Lomax and once as Kitty Frangleton in 2000 in Hyndburn, same reference numbers.
What I cannot find is any marriage to a Frangleton. Kitty Lomax/Frangleton was born around the right time but I am just not sure if I have the right lady. Can anyone suggest where I am going wrong?
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Hi Cazza47,
I don't think there is any reason at all to assume that you
are going wrong. :)
There is no marriage to Frangleton to be found for Langham
in England or Wales, and the family info you have says
'known as' rather than 'married to'.
My father appears in the death indexes twice. Because of an
'also known as' name on his death certificate he is listed
under both names in the index, but of course with the same
reference number. I think the death certificate will name
Kitty as 'Lomax also known as Frangleton'.
It is probably important to your friend to have sight of
all Kitty's B M & D certs at this stage.
What name she gave for her father on marriage would be
particularly interesting.
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Thank you for that, I thought I had gone off in the wrong direction, so easy to do with ancestry.
Carol
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Up date on my search, now have Kitty's marriage certificate to Herbert Lomax in 1979, her status is 'previous marriage dissolved' so she must have been married to a Frangleton, but still cannot find anything.
Anyone any suggestions where to look next please?
Carol
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Hi,
Have you looked for a marriage somewhere other than England or Wales? Could she have married in Scotland/Ireland or abroad?
Nanny Jan
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Thanks for reply.
I have checked Scotlandspeople, no joy, have checked on ancestry for marriages any where but no joy. I thought perhaps she may have married more than once before her marriage to Herbert but cannot find any marriages for her. Tried Kathleen but she was christened Kitty it is on her birth certificate. She was an illusive lady in life and seems to be the same in death!
Carol
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Have you looked for a divorce? Only England and Wales here:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/divorce-further-research.htm
Nanny Jan
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They seem to only be divorces up to 1911, Kitty had a child in 1942 when she was still Langham, interestingly there is a photo of her in a military uniform but I cannot find anything about that. She went on to become a state enrolled nurse.
Carol
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Ancestry have them up to 1911; TNA up to 1937 (I think) but there is guidance on how to find records after that.
Her service record would still be with MOD, copies cost £30; useful posting by millymcb:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651361.0
Not sure about records for a nurse but that line might also be worth exploring.
Nanny Jan
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Thanks will keep looking.
Carol
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Hello don't know what is happening with the replies I send The Frangleton's I have are from warrington - let me know if you have the same
regards
Heather
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She was working as a nurse in Warrington hospital between 1966 & 1968.(ancestry record)
What I know is she was single in 1942, by 1966 she was Kitty Frangleton (nee Langham), she married Herbert Lomax in 1979 stating her previous marriage was dissolved, which I presume she would have had to prove before she married Herbert. Marriage details for Herbert have him down as Nerbert.
Elusive lady!!
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Could it be an RAF uniform?
There is a Kitty Langham 894822 1939 Royal Air Force on Forces Wars Records.
Cathy
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Hi, when Kitty died in 2000 her birth date is recorded as 22nd March 1921. She can be found in 1939 with that birth date as a domestic servant housemaid. Surname recorded as LAUGHAM.
Marland House,S A Samford A, Wiveliscombe, Wellington R.D., Somerset, England.
John
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Whilst not answering your original post, and because of Rootschat policy about naming possible living people if your friend was born in the dq 1942 Kitty was still in Somerset.
John
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I'm intrigued by the fact that if you look at the image on the 1939 there is no name change indicated at all. I was under the impression that the NHS used this register up to the 1990's.
If she married Herbert in 1979 one would have thought that name would appear.
I wonder if it would be worth getting her war record, or perhaps that wouldn't show any name change to Frangleton?
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S A Samford A
I think that must be Sampford Arundel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampford_Arundel
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Were the Women's Land army issued a uniform?
John
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They did have one but not all women wore it.
"The Women's Land Army had a uniform - green jerseys, brown breeches, brown felt hats and khaki overcoats. However, the Land Army was not a military force and many women did not wear the uniform. Some women lived in hostels but most lived on individual farms. ... The Women's Land Army remained in existence until 1950."
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She can be found in 1939 with that birth date as a domestic servant housemaid. Surname recorded as LAUGHAM.
In the household of Jeston Homfray. He died in 1941.
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This is a picture of Kitty in her uniform, could it be an RAF uniform?
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Info only. Kitty's brother Cyril (1916) was also in Wellington reg dist in 1939 and recorded as R A F. Wonder if she put his uniform on for fun?
JOHN
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could it be an RAF uniform?
Looks more like ATS to me.
Like this one: http://www.atsremembered.org.uk/th-mumats1b.gif
http://www.atsremembered.org.uk/
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Definitely ATS
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Would I be able to find ATS records anywhere?
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Have a look at this
http://www.atsremembered.org.uk/
On the right hand side under For Veterans there is a How to Find a Service Record
Added: That just takes you to this:-
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records
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Yes you would need to apply to the MoD for a copy of her service records. £30 and quite a long wait at the moment.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
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I will apply for her records. Is there any way I can trace the T Frangleton that she was seemingly married to, he lived at 6 Elston Ave, Newton Le Willows for at least 15 years.
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I stuck in T Frangleton in the search field and only Thomas came up. There are three born between 1915 and 1925. Birth records below:-
Births Jun 1918
Frangleton Thomas Danskin Warrington 8c 382
Births Dec 1919
Frangleton Thomas Adcroft Warrington 8c 444
Births Sep 1920
Frangleton Thomas Bellis Warrington 8c 396
So he could be one of these.
The 1939 shows a single Thomas born 1919 living in Warrington. A possibility.
I'll check and see if any of the three married.
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There are three Thomas Frangleton marriages in 1943, 1946 and 1949 but none have a spouse name of Langham.
I'll see what there is in the way of deaths.
We are of course making the assumption that he is UK born!
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There are three deaths that match the births
1918 Thomas died 1995 Warrington, 1919 Thomas died 2001 Warrington and 1920 Thomas died 1996 Chester & Ellsmere Port.
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Thank you for that, I will have to keep searching.
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There are a couple of later marriages one in 1973 in Holywell district and 1976 in Leigh district.
The handicap is not knowing how old T Frangleton was. For all we know he may not have been born in the UK but elsewhere.
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I was confident that with a name like Frangleton I would be able to find something................wrong!
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I meant to mention on Kitty's marriage certificate to Herbert it said her previous marriage was dissolved, which can sometimes be different to a divorce, am I right about that?
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This seems to suggest so:-
'Dissolution' is legally ending a civil partnership, whereas 'Divorce' is used to describe the ending of same-sex and opposite-sex marriages. To divorce or dissolve a civil partnership, you must have been in the civil partnership or marriage for at least a year before applying to the court for a divorce or dissolution.
Could be they never actually married, just lived together and she took his surname. I wonder if he was married which could explain that.
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I think this lady will always be a mystery, T frangleton lived at 6 Elston Avenue for at least 15 years and she gave that address as her place of residence on her marriage certificate, so they appeared to be still living together.
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Just out of curiosity I put in Thomas Frangleton in the births to see what popped up. I got a list of 18 names with birth years ranging from 1847 to 1989. Two were Thomas with a second name and two had Thomas as a second name.
All were registered in the Warrington district apart from one in Chorlton, one in Salford and two British Army on the Rhine.
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Do you know at what point T Frangleton disappeared from that address? I assume you got this address from electoral rolls?
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Could not find him after 1979, could the fact that she said previous marriage dissolved mean they were in a civil partnership, was that a thing then?
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Another thought, could she have been married to someone else then got together with Mr Frangleton, and the previous marriage was dissolved, and she took his name, apparently she met Herbert on a coach trip and they got married quite quickly so she must have already been dissolved even though she was still living with him.
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Civil partnerships are a 'modern' thing, officially introduced in the UK in 2005. Kitty and Mr. Frangleton were probably in a civil partnership but in those days it wouldn't have been referred to as that.
As I asked in my previous post, at what point or in what year did T Frangleton disappear from the Elston Avenue address?
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I could not find him on Elston ave after 1979
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Sorry that should have been 1980
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Hmm, I think the most likely assumption is that T (Thomas?) Frangleton was a married man and therefore just lived with Kitty and never married her, but she took his surname.
I note that on Freebmd and Find My Past Kitty's maiden name of Langham is not given on her marriage to Herbert Lomax, only Frangleton appears. Did you say that Langham does appear on her marriage certificate to Herbert?
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Only Frangleton appeared on her marriage certificate, I have found a T Frangleton living at 21 Muirfield Close, Fearnhead, Lancaster in 1984 I wonder if this could be him.
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If it is Fearnhead in Warrington then I think I have already mentioned before, that there are three likely deaths mentioned in Reply #30.
All these deaths are after 1980, two were Warrington and one Chester.
The Thomas who died in 2001 in Warrington left a will. Getting it won't prove anything at all in relation to Kitty.
That T Frangleton you found in 1984 in Fearnhead, did it show any other persons listed at the address?
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A second marriage certificate for someone that was married and then divorced can say 'Previous marriage dissolved'. I have a marriage copy 1980's that states that.
As for the 1939 register being amended when a woman married, my mothers entry has not been changed and she is still listed under just her maiden name. She used the NHS quite a bit so they do slip through ;D
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It was just a telephone directory so only one name listed. Thank you all for your efforts, will keep searching.
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I don't know whether the fact that Kitty was transcribed as Laugham on the 1939 had anything to do with any lack of surname update
Looking at the image the 'n' is written in such a way as to be mistaken for a 'u'.
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Cazza it may be worth getting an electoral roll look up done for that Fearnhead address. It should reveal who was living there in 1984 and I think it should show full names.
Depends on whether you wish to pay the fee for a look up.
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Perhaps try to track down the old electoral registers for Newton-le-Willows? The local library should be able to advise.
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I know she was married to Herbert in 1979, but it would be interesting to know how long she lived at Newton Le Willows.
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Cannot apply for her service records because I do not have her service number.
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You don't need the service number if you have the date of birth. It's either or.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000954/_army_application_part2_final_3.pdf
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Thank you for that.