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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: tigger88 on Thursday 27 January 11 09:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I'm chasing verification of the marriage of John Haldane and Elizabeth Milwain and also the birth of Elizabeth, hoping to get her parents. I do have a marriage from parish registers for John Haddan and Elisabeth Milwain 15/4/1790 in Stoneykirk, Wigtown.
There are so many John Haldanes I am getting confused as to who is the right one plus there are so many different spellings of the name!
If anyone else is researching the same family, I would appreciate some help. Thank you. Have a great day.
Lesley
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I have a Margaret Hadden (Haldane) born Colmonell c1800. I've been trying to find her parents for years!
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John Haldane, b 27 May 1798, Colmonell, Ayrshire, Scotland, married Elizabeth McIlwain, abt 1804, Colmonell.
Hope this helps.
Roberta Muir
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Thank you for the info rmgm but I'm not quite sure that is does help as I have already found a marriage/proclamation of banns notice abit earlier. The John Haldane you found is the son of William and Jean Haldane but I don't have a marriage for him yet, unless there is another Elisabeth Milwain. The birth date is correct.
Scotlands People BDMs had the following info:
John Halden in the parish of Colmonell and Elisabeth Milwain in this parish were booked for proclamation of banns to the marriage 15th April 1790.
Lesley
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I don't have a marriage date for them, nor do I know where Elizabeth comes from. I do have their son, John's, info and his date of birth coincides with the date of the marriage Banns. I would really appreciate if you would be kind enough to let me know if you do match your Elizabeth with John Haldane b. 1805. I have just started researching this side of the family. I am related through William Haldane b. 4 May 1800, Colmonell, who married Jean Houston b. 03 May 1806, Irvine, on 11 Nov 1838 - their daughter, Jane Haldane or Jeanie Holden is my great grandmother. I am sorry I don't have to much to share with you, but as I find the info, I could just post it here if you would like.
John Haldane b. 04 Oct 1805, Colmnonell; d. 04 Jul 1876, Cawler Plains, South Australia. Buried at Willaston, South Australia
Married 17 Feb 1826 to Janet McCredie b.1807
Children:
1. John McCredie Haldane b. 1838, Scotland
2. Elizabeth Haldane b. 1828; d. 1900 Australia
3. Thomas b. 07 Nov 1829; d. 12 Dec 1906, Unley, Adelaide, S.A.
Married 08 Jun 1852, Elizabeth Willock Dawson b. 13 Feb 1830, Tehran, Persia;
d. May 28 1926, Strathalbyn, Adelaide, Victoria, South Australia
4. William 12 Dec 1831, Colmonell, Ayrshire; d. 31 Aug 1901, Lipson S.A.
Married 07 Sep 1855 Margaret Black b. abt 1834 Union Gove S.A.
5. James b. 1834; d. 1839
6. Jane Young Haldane b. 1836; d. Australia
7. Robert b, 1838, Scotland; d. 1888, Australia
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John Haldane and Janet McCredie first son's info should read:
1. John McCredie b. 15 Nov 1826, Girvan, Ayrshire, d. 29 Apr 1889, East Takaka, New Zealand. Married 06 Mar 1855, Adelaide, Christina Ross b. 14 Jan 1833, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland; d. 15 Nov 1902, New Zealand.
The remaining children read Ok
Sorry.
Roberta
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Hi Roberta
I can certainly swap info if you would like. The only thing is, I can't quite identify your John H and Elizabeth. John Haldane and Elisabeth Milwain (b 1798) are my husband's 3 x grandparents, their son John b. 4.10.1805 who married Janet McCredie are his 2 x grandparents, his grandparents are John McCredie H. [first born son of John and Janet] and Christina Ross who arrived in the Nelson district of NZ in 1855 from South Australia. I have the same info you do on the children although I do have some marriages you don't have.
I am not exactly sure where your 3 x grandparents fit though, who are William's parents? Also you say you have a birth date coinciding with the marriage date of John and Elisabeth, but I have a JAMES born 1790, could we have the name mixed up?
If you would like to email me, perhaps we could discuss this further?
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Regards
Lesley
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William Haldane b. 04 May 1800 - Parents William Haldane and Jean Kennedy. William is the brother of John Haldane b. 27 May 1798. You can e-mai me directly at (*)
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I could be the one is mixed up - I took this info from Familysearch and sometimes, I find, it isn't too accurate. This is what I have:
William Haldane b. 28 Feb 1762, Colmonell, (son of John Haldane b. 28 Apr 1706, d. 15 Feb 1787; married Agnes McConachie b. 1736; d. 01 Feb 1790) married Jean Kennedy b. 08 June 1771, Comonell, (daughter of Gilbert Haldane and Mary Logan).
Children:
Mary Haldane b. 11 Dec 1793, Colmonell; married James Dunlop 30 Mar 1818, Kilmarnock.
Jean Haldane b. 19 Mar 1796, Colmoell
John Haldane b. 27 May 1798, Comonell; married Elizabeth McIlwain
William Haldane b. 04 May 1800, Colmonell; married 11 Nov 1838, Irvine, Jean Houston b. 03 May 1806, Irvine.
Gilbert Haldane b 19 Feb 1803, Colmonell.
Williamina Haldane b. 22 Nov 1806, Colmonell
Catherine Haldane b. 23 Nov 1806, Colmonell
Mingo Haldane b. abt 1682; d. abt 175, Gleneagles; married Jenat Leishman, Port Menteith, Perth. Father of John Haldane b. 1706.
Gravestone in Colmonell:
Erected by thier sons and grandson William Hadden, mason, A.D. 1812
John Hadden d. 15 Feb 1787 81 yrs
Agnes Connachie d. Feb 1790 54 yrs.
Sons James and Jon Hadden
Roberta
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Hi Lesley and Roberta
I've been following your conversation with interest and have now tracked down my Margaret Haldane who turned out to be much older than I had expected. If I read it correctly, there is a possible family group consisting of John Haldane (1706), a James Haldane (married to Jean Hettrick), a Jean Haldane (married to Hugh Aitken) and a Gilbert Haldane (married (?) to Jean Logan).
Is there anything to link these people, who all seem to have children born in Colmonell between 1766 - 1772ish, to Mungo Haldane and Jane Leishman? I haven't been able to find anything other than another child for Mungo and Janet, a daughter Jannet born in 1707 in Kippen. Clearly the family moved about a lot and I'm wondering why and what brought them from Perth/Stirling to Colmonell in the mid 1700s.
Catherine
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Hi Catherine
The John Haldane (Hadden) 1706, is reported to be the son of Mungo Haldane and Jenat Leashman - some believe it and some don't. The others probably mare relatives - maybe brothers?
I figure that the poor people moved around frequently with the hope to get employment or better employment. I think the wealthy moved around obtain land - probably granted for some great deed or because they were not the eldest son who would normally inherit the family estate. There are many reasons.
Lesley is much more knowledgeable than I about the Haldane tribe. She will probably reply in greater depth than I.
Roberta
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Hello Catharine and Roberta
Not sure that I agree with you Roberta about being more knowledgeable about the Haldane clan, I guess I'm abit pedantic about trying to get the right facts which in this case means the right people!
Today I found something else to put in the mix, I have found two marriages [or proclamations/banns] for Mungo Haldan, one to Janet Leishman on 24/4/1692 in Auchterarder, Perth then one to Eliz Thomson 21/10/1694 also in Auchterarder, Perth. But I have found 3 children to Mungo and Janet:
Jannet 2/11/1707
John 28/4/1706 [our 3 x gf]
Agnas (sic) 12/2/1703
No children found to ElizThomson but I don't think the marriage went ahead as often banns were called but no marriage took place. Also, I'm wondering why there is such a big gap from the first proclamation to the birth of the first child. If Mungo was born in 1636 as scotlands people tells me, he would have been in his 70's by the time the kids were born. So do we have the correct father? I can only find one birth of a Mungo Haldane, son of John Haldane and Margaret Fraser. Unless the spelling is way off track.
As far as the other names go, the only link I can find as said is John Haldane. James b. 1761 parents seem to be John McIlwrick [?] and Margaret Haldane, not sure where she fits, could she be yours Catherine? The only Gilbert I found was born in 1803 to William Haldane and Jean Kennedy.
Probably the family moved around because of land problems as Roberta said. I wondered if it was because of the highland clearances [my Scottish geography is a bit weak :)] but Perth and Stirling seem to be 'on the flat'. Maybe they moved to Colmonell to be near the sea? Just a theory.
Look forward to more discussion, it would be so great if there were census' we could look at to help prove the families!
Cheers
Lesley
PS I'm still trying to verify a William Haldane b. 1800 to William and Jean H. The MI's I have looked at seem to confirm Wm son of Wm and Jean [Jane] died aged 17, so am not sure where your Wm is Roberta. Sometimes you feel like tearing your hair out ::)
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Hi Lesley and Roberta
I agree the dates don't fit. It looks to me like there is a generation missing however John Haldane (1706) was an old man for his time when the children were born in Colmonell. Possibly an earlier marriage in another part of the country? I'm speculating here but perhaps the James, Jean and Gilbert are not his siblings but his children.
[James b. 1761 parents seem to be John McIlwrick [?] and Margaret Haldane, not sure where she fits, could she be yours ]
No, not this one, I hadn't found her. Perhaps another sibling/daughter of John (1706). My Margaret's parents were James Haldane and Jean Hettrick. Just to throw something else into the pot, she was born in Dalrymple, Ayrshire and they married there. Certainly an itinerant family.
An interesting puzzle - let's solve it!
Catheirne
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Okay, I've found more children for Mungo and Janet.
John and David (twins) 17/02/1701 Port of Monteith
Agnas 12/02.1703 Port of Monteith
John 28/02/1706 Port of Monteith
Jannet 02/11/1707 Kippen, Stirling
There are losts of Haldanes/Haddens in Kippen among them a marriage of Mungo Hadden to Janet Gilfillan in 1738 - surely a missing son; also a Mungo Hadden to Grizal Galbraith
Working on the theory that John (1706) was married previously, there is a marriage of John Haldane to Helen Buchanan in Kippen on 13/02/1732. Haven't found any definite children yet.
I don't understand the reference to Eliz Thomson - he was already married to Janet Leishman and she was certainly still alive at the time! A cousin perhaps?
Catherine
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Hi Lesley and Catherine
There is a Margaret Haldane (22 Jul 1654-17 Feb 1722) , daughter of Mungo Haldane (13th of Gleneagles, d. 1685) and Ann Grant. Margaret's brothers were David (1738) and John (14th of Gleneagles) the father of Mungo Haldane (15th of Gleneagles 1682-1755).
The marriage Banns could have been read when the children were still very young; Mungo would have been only 10 years old, if the above date is accurate. This did occur and children were promised to each other by parents who wanted more lands and retain power, etc.
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Hi Roberta and Lesley
I'm now thinking we have the wrong trail after all. Looking at all the Hadden/Haldane names in Colmonell wouldn't you expect to see a Mungo somewhere? The family you refer to Roberta are 'landed gentry' holding titles and I think this is the line in Auchterarder and Kippen. I'm just not seeing them in Colmonell. This doesn't get any clearer so I think I'll go back to the original parish records and see if any clues turn up in the wording. Will let you know if I fid anything.
Catherine
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What a puzzle this is all turning out to be ???
Just how do we prove any of this?
I have got a certificate of the marriage of my John Haldane to Elizabeth McIlwain, but trying to find the right grandparents of John is proving difficult.
My brain is going into overload trying to figure it all out.
Must try and find out why the family moved to Colmonell if John's father is indeed Mungo.
Having a copy of the monumental inscription of John Haldane b. 1706 and his wife Agnes b. c 1736 gives us more information that we assume is correct. Why would anyone put wrong names or dates on a gravestone?
So far this is what I have:
John 1706-1787 and Agnes McConchie 1736-1790 Cannot find their marriage date, but as the first child was born 1762, you would think it would be around that time.
Their children:
William 1762-1836 married Jean Kennedy [marriage date not found]
John 1765-1840 married Elizabeth McIlwain 15/4/1790
Thomas 1768-?
Hugh 1770 - ?
Agnes 1775 - ?
Am still looking for more on Hugh, Agnes, and Thomas.
Look forward to the next episode:
Lesley
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Hi Lesley and Roberta
I've caught up on the Haldane discussions on GenForum and had some more thoughts about it - nothing coherent you understand!
Firstly, looking at my Margaret's birth/christening record, her parents are listed as 'in Kirkhill'. There's a mansion there now and a ruined castle but the mansion wasn't built until after the time we're talking about and so there may have been a house there before that. If it refers to Kirkhill Castle, then these particular Haldanes may have been tennants on the land or in service at the castle.
All this speculation then made me wonder about why they were there. I can't think of any link between the Haldanes of Gleneagles and the Kennedys (who built the castle) but I did think about building and since William Haldane and his son were both masons I wondered if that's why they had come here. Perhaps the family were originally masons who must have moved about to where the work was. It might explain why we've uncovered so many Haldanes in the eighteenth century and why we're reduced to one family, a blacksmith, at Lendalfoot in 1841.
Catherine
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Afternoon
Regarding John Haldane in NZ does anyone know who his Wife Margaret Fellowes grandfather Robert Fellowes parents were? Supposedly he married Mary Jane Ross in Carlisle but I can't find it though she can be found. I presume he is from Ireland but can't find him there either. Being sergeant his commission wasn't bought which would indicate not being from a wealthy family.
From my brothers look at the Haldanes it looks like they were in Colmonell or around it for centuries but I will look to see what he has got.
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hi, i have some haldanes in colmonell from john haldane b 1735, d 15 feb 1787 in colmonell, and wife agnes mcconchie b 1736, colmonell? ayrshire d 1790 colmonell. Their son john haldane b 26 oct 1765 in dam con colmonell, d 5 oct 1840 married elizabeth mcilwain b 1804 wigtownshire d 1840 they married in stoneykirk 15 apr 1790. (she was 24 and he was 39). also a possible early marriage for agnes mcconchie to john fergusson b 1735 kirkoswald. marriage dated 23 jan 1757 in kirkoswald. she was 21 he was 22.
would the 1706 date for john haldane be a misprint either on the records or the grave marker or transcribing problem? or is he the "1735" john the son of the 1706 one and could agnes have married both? interesting, lainey
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Hi lainey
I haven't looked at this family for some time ??? but I think I can answer some of your questions.
John Haldane (1706-1787) married Agnes McConchie 1736-1790(there are different spellings for her name) although I haven't been able to find the actual marriage. I also haven't been able to find her birth! As far as I can tell, John was about 30 years her senior.
They had 5 children: William (1762-1836) John (1765-1840) Thomas (1768-) Hugh (1770 -) and Agnes (1775 -)
Much has been written about this family but none of the facts have been able to be proven. I'm afraid I have left it as it all seemed too hard!
All their children were born in Colmonell and I'm picking they were married in Colmonell. I guess I must now do more searching!
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John Haldane (1765-1840) married Elisabeth McIlwain (1763-1823) 15 Apr 1790 (banns) at Stoneykirk, Wigtown.
They had 4 children James (1790-1790) Janet (1795-1874) (She married David Brown)
Thomas (1796-1878) He married Anne McIlraith in 1829:
John (1805-1876) He married Janet McCredie 1826 in Fife.
John and Janet emigrated to South Australia in 1848 on the 'Bolton' with their children. Thomas and Anne followed and ended up in Fitzroy, Melbourne, Victoria.
Hope this helps.
Lesley
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thanks folks. the john haldane who married agnes mcconchie was my 7 x ggrandfather. weirdly enough, the burn which starts practically outside my front door, runs though colmonell where they lived. as i just found out this info, and dont come from this area myself, found it really interesting. i have johns parents as david haldane (1720-) and janet frier (1723-)from borthwick, midlothian, from ancestry registers, which cant then be acurate if john was born in 1706 or thereabouts. more digging needed lol. cheers and happy hunting
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oh, i'm tracing through john haldanes (1765) and elizabeth mcilwain's (1764 - 1825) son john haldane (1805 carlton mains colmonell - 1876 gawler plains, adelaide) who married janet maxwell hilden torrance (1804 - 1874 kirkolm, wigtownshire - 1874 gawler plains, adelaide, australia) on 4th may 1829. thanks
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I just bought a house that was owned by John Haldane (born in 1805), he purchased 843 acres in 1852 (I think), he paid 82 pounds and 1 shilling for it. There was a coach house on it, or he built it shortly after I guess.
In about 1870 a house was built on the property.
In the 1950's the house and coachhouse were joined together, and that is what we have now bought. we move in in August 2015.
We started to do a bit of research on the Haldanes, and discovered an interesting case of Haldane v McEwen, where Haldane was suing McEwen for 100 pounds for the loss of services that were provided by Haldanes daughter (a widow by then), Elizabeth Potts. Mr McEwen was accused of getting Elizabeth pregnant (from our research, we don't know if it was a consensual sexual relationship... possibly for money... or if it was non-consenual). Apparently she was ill throughout the pregnancy and for some time after (the baby boy only lived 8 days). Her father was eventually awarded 30 pounds compensation. Apparently the hearing went for several hours in the Gawler local court and was of great interest to the local community, and at times the crowd was difficult to control!
The house is on Potts Road, in what would have been Gawler Plains.
John Haldane and his wife also owned a farm at Nuriootpa. They had other children as well I think.
Elizabeth Potts passed away at the age of 72 she was "found dead in her bed", having milked 2 cows in the morning, had her dinner and retired for her usual afternoon nap, at that time she was living with her son, John.
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Wow Marion what an interesting story. Your new house certainly has a history.
I haven't been able to find out much about the Haldanes in South Australia, although I haven't looked at them for awhile.
John and Janet Haldane came out to South Australia in 1848 with six of their 8 children, two of whom died very young in Scotland. As I understand it, John obtained land for farming in 1848, not sure if he bought it or was given it under the land settlement for new settlers. Possibly the latter as South Australia was settled by new settlers, they did not have convict labourers.
He must have had some money to have bought another property at Nuriootpa, although maybe he was a canny Scotsman and careful with it! Thank you so much for sending this information.
Cheers
Lesley