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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: mrsearch on Saturday 29 January 11 06:07 GMT (UK)

Title: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Saturday 29 January 11 06:07 GMT (UK)
Hi - I'm a newbie at genealogical research.  I'm looking for my great grandfather Arthur Edwin Westhorp, born 1855.  He married Alice Lucy Dilks in 1880 in Trinity Church, Trinity Stepney Middlesex.  His father was William Hast Westhorp (Jnr).  Her father (deceased by the time of the marriage) was George Dilks.  I have William H Westhorp's family back two generations, but Arthur seems to have disappeared!   ???

Arthur and Alice had at least one son - Robert Stanley Westhorp (my grandfather) - and possibly another called Gordon.  I have found Alice and Robert in the 1901 census when Alice is the head of the household, and I found Robert (aged 3) in the 1891 census.  Can't find either parent at this time and there's no sign of Gordon at all, tho' I must admit I haven't looked too hard for him.

We have some fascinating family stories about Arthur squandering money, running away and leaving Alice to raise the children as a seamstress, with my grandfather sitting under the sewing machine operating the treadle and reading... but no way of working out yet what actually happened.  Would love to find out more about Arthur if possible but I'm a bit stymied by access to records at the time as his name just doesn't come up.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks so much...
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: geniecolgan on Saturday 29 January 11 06:22 GMT (UK)
There's a death registered for Arthur Edwin Westhorp ....
Jan - Mar, 1889, West Ham, vol 4a, page 79, aged 34.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: geniecolgan on Saturday 29 January 11 06:29 GMT (UK)
There is also a birth registered for an Arthur Dilks Westhorp, Sep quarter, 1884, Poplar, vol 1c, page 633.

Given the middle name, this could be a brother of your grandfather.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Saturday 29 January 11 06:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much for that - and especially for the speed of reply!  Guess that explains his absence pretty well  ::)  I had a brief look into Arthur Dilks Westhorp.  The coincidence of names seems too much to miss, so he could be a child of Arthur and Alice as well.  I'll have to go look some more.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: pjrcw on Saturday 29 January 11 17:04 GMT (UK)

Hi, I was really interested to read your message, as I have recently been researching my Grandfathers family - Arthur Dilks Westhorp - who I had believed to be an orphan. Grandpa was a wonderful man and very important in my early years, but unfortunately he never spoke about his early life, maybe it was just too painful.

I have discovered that - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - (his Father) died in 1889 at the age of 34 and was an engineer (from my Grandfathers marriage certificate).

I have a photograph of my Grandfather with his two brothers, one who I believe to be William Hast 1886 - 1917 and who died as a lieutenant in the first world war and another brother Robert ( I think ) , who may be your Grandfather, but I have not been able to find much about yet.
Also my Grandfather may have had a twin sister but I am not certain of this yet.

I was surprised on hearing about Alice and believe that she later changed her name to Westhoven. Also amazing to read from you about Arthurs behaviour , as it is so difficult to imagine what had happened and was most interesting.

Anyway, I hope that this has helped a little.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Saturday 29 January 11 23:56 GMT (UK)
Well hello!  There are certainly many similarities in our information - perhaps too many to be coincidence.  I did not know my grandfather (Robert Stanley Westhorp) well - he died when I was 6 or 7, but I have older siblings who may have better memories.  Our biggest difference in information is a single family photo identified as Uncle Gordon, whom we have to date believed to be Robert's brother.  We were unaware of any other siblings until this week!  We have managed to trace Arthur Edwin back a couple of generations - his father and grandfather were both William Hast W, so another of that name is not unreasonable.  Our William Hast Jnr (Arthur Edwin's father) does not have a William Hast as a son as far as I can tell.  Perhaps Arthur E named one of his children after his father?  But if so, where or who might Gordon be?  This is a fascinating game!

On the stories regarding Arthur E's behaviour - they are just stories and I suspect have been disproved already by his early death.  The bit about Alice supporting her family by sewing, with my grandfather Robert helping with the treadle is still believable I guess.  My sense is that Robert was the youngest and our story says he left school to help out (hence the reading under the sewing machine).  If so, the fact that he ended up with a degree in naval architecture is quite something!

Thanks for the info on Alice changing her name - have been frustrated with trying to find death records etc for her and your grandfather, so this information is helpful indeed.  Back to the search!
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Sunday 30 January 11 08:28 GMT (UK)
Hello again pjrcw.  I've had a chance to collect a bit more info from my siblings since the last post.  Apparently the National Archives records from the Admiralty give Arthur Edwin's birth date as 09 August 1884, and place as Bromley-by-Bow.  Hopefully you may find this helpful in tracing Arthur Dilks further if you wish.  I can give you a URL for this info.  I'll try to work out how to do a private message and send it through on that.  There are some other bits and pieces that might prove helpful as well that I'll raise in the other format.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: pjrcw on Sunday 30 January 11 15:48 GMT (UK)

Hello again Mrsearch and many thanks for the info and help on tracing my Grandfathers family.
I received your private message but am not allowed to reply yet (have to send 3 public messages first).

I don’t really know who Uncle Gordon could be (maybe a family friend ??) Unfortunately both my Father (another Arthur) and myself are only children, so no help there.
I often wondered how my Grandfather received his good education, as I believed him to be an orphan. It is possible that his Grandfather - William Hast Westhorp - had something to do with this, as he would have been still living then.

Yes, a scan of Arthur E.W. and Alices marriage certificate would be very welcome. If you are interested, I could send copies of the photo of the ‘three brothers’. Two other cabinet photographs taken in the Poplar area of London could possibly be of Arthur Edwin and Alice. Everything fits but its difficult to say for sure.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Valda on Sunday 30 January 11 17:23 GMT (UK)
Hi

St John Poplar 17th October 1889
Arthur Dilks and Robert Stanley Westhorp parents Arthur Edwin and Alice Lucy, 12 Galbraith Street, father's occupation - deceased
Arthur's surname spelt with 2 ps.

1891 census RG12 329 folio 59
107 Grudy? Street Poplar
Alice Westhorp 34 Head Widow Machinist Dover Kent
Arthur D Westhorp 6 Son Bromley by Bow
Robert S Westhorp 3 Son West Ham

1881 census RG11 507 folio 1?2
61 Evans Street Poplar
Alice L. Westhorpe 24 Wife Married of an Engineer Dover Kent
Alice W. Westhorpe Daughter 5 months Poplar Middlesex

Births Dec 1880   WESTHORPE  Alice Winifred    Poplar  1c 695
Deaths Mar 1884  Westhorp  Alice Winifred  3  Poplar  1c 459

There is a tree on Ancestry which gives William Hast Westhorp born West Ham 1886 as the son of William Hast Westhorp 1845-1891 and his wife Louisa Catherine Westhorp (marriage 1878 Epping). The other William Haste Westhorp birth registration is in 1883 in Worcester registration district. On the 1891 census he is the son of William Haste Westhorp a widower and tobacconist aged 30 born Liverpool Lancashire. On the 1891 census the family including a younger son and widowed mother are in Spotland Rochdale Lancashire.

A free search of the 1911 census shows Alice Lucy Westhorpe living in the West Ham area. That census may show how many children Alice had had. A search on the 1911 census cannot be requested on Rootschat because of copyright reasons.


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Sunday 30 January 11 22:00 GMT (UK)
Wow Valda thanks so much.  This is excellent information.  We didn't know about the daughter Alice W at all so that's very exciting.

I'm very confused by all the William Hast Westhorps.  We have three so far WH Snr born 1796 to Nathaniel W and Elizabeth Hast.  His son (according to the 1871 census) WH Jnr born 1822 and now WH (3rd) born 1886.  The date and place of his birth fit well with Arthur and Alice's string of children, but the info from the tree on Ancestry confuses things - as does his mother.  I have a Louisa Catherine W as well, but as the child of Theophilus who was William Hast Snr's brother.  I wish they hadn't all used the same names all the time!

We have found a photo (last night) of "Uncle Will" in uniform dated 1917 and we have photos of an Uncle Gordon taken here in Australia in 1930.  Back to the search for me, obviously.

Once again thanks so much for your assistance.  It's amazingly helpful.

PS Sorry if this gets posted twice... computer confusion!
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Sunday 30 January 11 22:03 GMT (UK)
Hi pjrcw - a scan of the photo of the brothers would be very interesting indeed.  We could likewise send scans of "Uncle Will" and "Uncle Gordon" (who do look a bit similar despite differences in age).  Perhaps this would best be done through PMs once you're able to send them.  Look forward to hearing form you.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: geniecolgan on Sunday 30 January 11 23:57 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I don't know if this is relevant but there's a Fred'k Gordon Westhrop b.1907, Tallangatta, Victoria. Father, Erns't Jno Westhorp; Mother, Alice Mary Rapsey.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Monday 31 January 11 00:03 GMT (UK)
Hi - thanks for that.  I don't think he's the right one but the Gordon does point backwards to potential fathers.  I found a death notice for Fedrick (sic) Gordon in NSW as well in 1968.  Haven't traced back through the parents yet as I'm yet to identify that Gordon actually is a child of Arthur and Alice.  Will work on it tho - thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Valda on Monday 31 January 11 08:15 GMT (UK)
Hi

1891 census RG12 739 folio 6
Seal? Cottage 179 Black Street Deal Kent
Wm H Westhorp 46 Head Married Ship master Poplar London
Louis C Westhorp 49 Wife Married Poplar London
William H Westhorp 5 Son Poplar London
1 visitor and two servants

Births Jun 1886   Westhorp  William Hast     W. Ham  4a 80

1901 census RG13 886 folio 15
Seaford College Sutton cum Seaford, Sussex
William H Westhorp 15 Boarder  Deal, Kent

Seaford College

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaford_College

Marriages Dec 1878     
WESTHORP  Louisa Catherine     Epping  4a 199   
WESTHORP  William Hast     Epping  4a 199

Births Mar 1845   
WESTHORP  William Hart     Poplar  2 347

On the 1851 census this William was with his mother Elizabeth aged 28 whose husband was a master in Trinity (barge) and a younger brother both born Bromley (by Bow). A William Haste Westhrop the son of William Haste Westhrop married Elizabeth Sweeting in 1844 in Bethnal Green. He was a fireman and his father was a cook.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: pjrcw on Monday 31 January 11 13:13 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much Valda for all the infomation, its a great help especially about the college. :)
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Valda on Monday 31 January 11 23:58 GMT (UK)
Hi

Full details of what I mentioned in my last post.

11th February 1844 St John, Bethnal Green
William Haste Westhorp Full Age Bachelor Fireman 2 Elizabeth Place William Haste Westhorp Cook
Elizabeth Sweeting Full Age Spinster 16 Wells Street Thomas Sweeting Gent
Both signed
Witneses Thomas and Henry Sweeting

1851 census HO107 1556 folio 439
7 Susannah Shreet Poplar
Elizabeth Westhorp 28 Married Husband in Trinity Barge Bethnal Green Middlesex
William Westhorp 6 Son Bromley Middlesex
Samuel E Westhorp 1 Son Bromley Middlesex

1861 census RG9 466 folio 59
Jones Cottages Erith Kent
Elizabeth Westhorp 38 Head Married Shoreditch Middlesex
Elizabeth Westhorp 14 Daughter Folkestone Kent
Samuel Westhorp 11 Son Poplar Middlesex
Joseph Westhorp 9 Son Poplar Middlesex
Arthur Westhorp 6 Son Poplar Middlesex
Hannah Westhorp 3 Daughter Poplar Middlesex
Florence Westhorp 1 Daughter Erith Kent
Catherine Sweeting? 22 Married East Indies

Husband an engineer on the Goliath in 1861

1871 census RG10 574 folio 169
Oakum Factory Falcon Works Ellismere Street Bromley by Bow Middlesex
William H Westhorp 49 Head Married Manager Patent Machine Pickled Oakum Harwich Essex
Elizabeth Westhorp 48 Wife Married Bethanl Green Middlesex
Henry Westhorp 21 Son Son Weigher at Oakum Factory Bromley Middlesex
Elizabeth Westhorp 24 Daughter Domestic Servant Folkestone Kent
Joseph Westhorp 19 Son Engine Fitter at works Poplar Middlesex
Arthur Westhorp 16 Son Engine Fitter at works Poplar Middlesex
Hannah Westhorp 14 Daughter Poplar Middlesex
Florence Westhorp 12 Daughter Poplar Middlesex
Walter Westhorp 9 Son Erith Kent
Horace Westhorp 7 Son Bromley Middlesex
Ada Westhorp 4 Daughter Bromley Middlesex

Other than the 1851 and 1891 censuses it is hard to spot William Hast Westhorp born 1845, the father of William Hast Westhorp born 1886, on censuses - not surprising if he was a merchant seaman. By 1901 his wife was a widow.

1901 census RG13 1637 folio 147
Nu?ton Palmerston Road Buckhurst Hill Essex
Louisa Cath Westhorp 60 Head Widow Polar London
plus 1 visitor and a servant

Deaths Jun 1891   Westhorp  William Ha_t  46  Eastry  2a 629

He died at Seagirt Cottage Deal and left a will with an estate valued at  nearly £1,500
Louisa Catherine his widow died in 1909 and also left a will.

Their son William Hast Westhorp who was killed in the First World War would be a cousin to Robert Samuel and Arthur Dilks.


Alice and her son Robert on the 1901 census

1901 census RG13 1564 folio 146
4 Romford Road West Ham Essex
Edmund B Mitchell 24 Head Single Solicitor's Articled clerk Havant Hampshire
Alice L Winthrop 39 Servant Widow Housekeeper Dover Kent
Robert S Winthrop 13 Son Stationer's clerk West Ham

Deaths Mar 1914 Westhorp  Alice L  57  Wigan  8c 96

If this is her she's in Lancashire?

On a free search of the 1911 census Alice was still in West Ham.


Arthur Dilks Westhrop joined the navy

Registers of Seaman's services
Name  Westhorp, Arthur Dilks
Official Number:  208291
Place of Birth:  Bromley-by-Bow, London
Date 09 August 1884
Catalogue reference ADM 188/363 
Dept Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies
Series Admiralty: Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
Piece 208001-208500


Other than their sister Alice Winifred who died young there is no evidence (from censuses) that there were any other siblings or any that survived and there isn't much space between the marriage in 1880 and Arthur Edwin's death in 1889 (and 9 months after) for many more children.
Marriage March quarter 1880 Mile End
Birth Alice Winifred 1880 December quarter Poplar
Birth Arthur Dilks  Sept quarter 1884 Poplar
Birth Robert Stanley March quarter 1888 West Ham
Death Arthur Edwin March quarter 1889 West Ham


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: pjrcw on Tuesday 01 February 11 20:26 GMT (UK)
Hello Mrsearch

The document I found is a British army WW1 medal rolls index cards 1914-1920 (regarding a Victory medal) and is from Ancestry.uk archives. This document was sent to my grandfather Arthur Dilks Westhorp, when William Hast died and it also says “Brother” on the address.  Please note that my Grandfather ran the police station in Harefield, (a small village) when he was younger and that is why the address on the document says police station .
My daughter reminds me that we also have a book called “Barrack-room ballads” by Rudyard Kipling( from Methuen’s colonial library) 1905, with  his name written inside, (W. Hast Westhorp) it also says “Naval police” under his name. At least we think it says Naval, but is this him? It is certainly one family member.

I have attached a picture of the three brothers. The one on the left is my Grandfather but I am not certain of the others.

Regards PJRCW
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: geniecolgan on Tuesday 01 February 11 22:37 GMT (UK)
Hi MrSearch,

do you have Robert Stanley's British Army WWI Pension Records?
There are 14 images for him on Ancestry. Indexed as Robert Westhorf !
RE Sapper 59546, trade was Mech Draughtsman.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Tuesday 01 February 11 22:41 GMT (UK)
Hi pjrcw

Thanks so much for the photo.  Here's our photo of 'Will' - to me he looks very similar to the one in the middle of your photo.  So now I am even more confused.  I thought Valda's information very clear (for which many thanks Valda!) and the connection to WHW as a cousin made sense.  The thing that is difficult is that I can't immediately put my hands on a young photo of Robert Stanley, so can't compare to the other one in this photo.  Do you have any idea of the date of this at all?  The photo below is dated 5 November 1917, which must have been just before he died presumably.  The inscription reads "Yours aye, Will and the date".  Still confused I have to admit.   Hope this helps you
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Wednesday 02 February 11 02:35 GMT (UK)
Hi Valda
Thanks once again for so much detailed information - it makes a big difference.  We currently have the eldest William Hast you mention in your post as the son of a mariner (1841 census) rather than the son of a cook and we have him either involved in shipping or managing a patent machine (related to the oakum business) in the 1871 census and no sign of him being a fireman.  We also have the younger William as father to Henry born in 1950(ish) (from the 1871 census) and haven't yet found him as father to Samuel (in around the same year who shows up as the child of Elizabeth in your information from the 1851 and 1861 census').  All the siblings are correct however.  I can't remember if we have anything on a marriage between William and Elizabeth that has different parent options so will go searching for that today.  This gets more interesting the more I get into it.  Thanks again for pointing us to new info and a broader range of places to look. 
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Wednesday 02 February 11 02:36 GMT (UK)
Thanks geniecolgan - those photos are going to help with comparisons to others we have around the place!  Its still a mystery this one...
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Valda on Wednesday 02 February 11 11:09 GMT (UK)
Hi

I imagine the cook, firemen roles are on board, or connected to ships in some way. It seems to be the correct marriage as Elizabeth Westhorp nee Sweeting has a visitor staying with her called Catherine Sweeting on the 1861 census and besides the man marrying and his father were called William Hast Westhrop. There is a limit to how many William Hast Westhorps, the sons of William Hast Westhorp are around in the same place at the same time to be able to marry in 1844 in the East End of London.

I'm wondering whether the Samuel Westhorp of the 1851 and 1861 censuses was actually

Births Sep 1849   WESTHORP  Henry Edward     Poplar  2 314

who is the same age on the 1871 census. Both images on the 1851 and 1861 censuses are clearly written as Samuel, in the case of the 1851 census Samuel E. The 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses are consistent with ages and places of birth to show it is the same family.

The three cousins Alfred Dilks, Robert Stanley and William Hast may have been very close. All three certainly lost their fathers at a very early age. However William Hast Westhorp seems to have been in a different financial position to his two cousins from the wills of his parents and was educated in a private boarding school, Seaford College in Sussex.



Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Wednesday 02 February 11 12:47 GMT (UK)
Thanks Valda.  That certainly all makes sense.  Once again thanks for providing so much detail - its helpful!
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Wednesday 02 February 11 12:50 GMT (UK)
Hi again pjrcw
I have to amend the date on the photo of William Hast Westhorp I attached earlier - further investigation shows it to read 5.4.17 we think - which puts it just 23 days before his death according to the military record.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Friday 04 February 11 12:17 GMT (UK)
Hi Geniecolgan

My brother is now a subscriber to Ancestry but he can't find the images of Robert Stanley Westhorf that you identified for us.  Is it, by any chance, easy to describe what he should do to get to see them?  Thanks for your help (in advance).  Being all newbies is a bit difficult sometimes.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: geniecolgan on Friday 04 February 11 15:10 GMT (UK)
Hi mrsearch,
I haven't looked at all the images but I should tell you they are not photographs of Robert Stanley. They are images of Army forms relating to his Pension.

On Ancestry;
Click on the SEARCH tab, then make sure you are using the new search (top right).
Enter the following:-
Name; Robert Westhorf
Event; Military
Collection Priority; UK and Irish
Restrict to; Historical records

He is the first one on the list. British Army WWI Pension Records.
When you go to look at the image it brings up the first of 11 that they have for him.
Once the image is up you can go to the following images by clicking the forward arrow (top right).

Give this a try and let's know how you get on.

Regards,
genie  :)


 
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Friday 04 February 11 23:23 GMT (UK)
Thanks very much for the help.  I'll pass it on and see how it goes!
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Saturday 05 February 11 04:30 GMT (UK)
I'm sorry to be a pain, but I'm interested in a little bit more help.  We have found Alice W in the 1911 census (she's home alone) but the census form identifies that she had four children, three of whom are still living.  No names etc included.  Is there any form of record that anyone knows about that lists the whole family of a person?  Other than census records... we haven't managed to find a single census record that would give her four children.  So far we know about Alice W (1880 -1884), Arthur Dilks (1884) and Robert Stanley (1888).  We don't get any other children at any of her residences in any census... So, I'm hoping there's some other type of record. 
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Valda on Saturday 05 February 11 11:27 GMT (UK)
Hi


There are censuses, civil registration and parish registers.


The 1911 census with the other family information about another brother William (nothing showing on censuses) leaves you with the possibility perhaps that a son may have been 'given up'?


Wiliam Hast Westhorp's birth wasn't in Poplar like the other three children, but Louisa Catherine was getting on by 1886 - she would have been about 45.


Births Jun 1886   Westhorp  William Hast    W. Ham  4a 80

Births Dec 1840 Westhorp  Louisa Catherine    Stepney  2 421


29th October 1878 The Standard
Marriages
Westhorp- Westhorp
Oct 26th at Buckhurst-hill Congregational Church by the Rev W H Charlesworth assisted by the Rev H J Bevis of Ramsgate, William Hast Westhorp to Louisa Catherine, eldest daughter of T. Westhorp, Esq. of Loughton Essex.


1871 census RG10 16?8 folio 49
Holmehurst Manor Road Loughton Essex
Theopolis Westhorp 57 Head Married Ship owner & ship chandler patent oakum manufactory 164 men and 20 boys Harwich Essex
Rebecca Westhorp 56 Wife Married Poplar Middlesex
Louisa Westhorp 30 Daughter Poplar Middlesex
Alice Westhorp 16 Daughter Poplar Middlesex
Eliza Westhorp 77 Sister Unmarried Harwich Essex
plus 2 visitors and 3 servants


First World War army officers records are not online. This may be William's records at The National Archives

WO 339/66267 WESTHORP W [1914-1922]

William Hast Westhorp senior left a will as did his wife. Both wills could be sent for and of course there is the birth certificate which would settle it one way or the other.



Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Saturday 05 February 11 12:00 GMT (UK)
Thanks again Valda. You must have the most amazing super search engine running full time to get all this stuff.  We have in fact ordered William Hast's (1886) birth certificate, but we're with you on this - that he is in fact a cousin of Arthur D and Robert S and not the missing child.  Will just have to wait and see...  So we are left with the open mystery of another child!  Our only hint is a photo of 'uncle gordon' who (apart from his looks) could be anyone!  My brother is fascinated by how you found the Standard reference.  Is there an Archive on newspapers in England that is accessible on line?   I hope you are not spending too many hours on our behalf, although we greatly appreciate the assistance you are giving.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: pjrcw on Sunday 06 February 11 10:30 GMT (UK)
Hello All,

Regarding William hast Westhorp  1886-1917, although everyone keeps suggesting that he may have been a cousin he was definitely my Grandfathers Brother. I have proof of this as his war medal was sent to my  Grandfather ( Arthur Dilks) see document below:

It may be that William Hast was taken care of by other relatives from an early age, but they certainly keep in touch.

Maybe the fourth child was Alice Winifred Westhorp  1880-1884 who died at an early age as stated before.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Sunday 06 February 11 10:51 GMT (UK)
I've ordered William Hast 1886's birth certificate from the GRO and expect that it will arrive here in about a fortnight.  I'll post it up as soon as I get it.  If he is Alice's fourth child that will solve one mystery, but I think the census info is pretty strong.  So if he's not...  I'm trying to restrain my impatience!
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Valda on Sunday 06 February 11 14:19 GMT (UK)
Hi

William Hast Westhorp and his wife Louisa may have taken in one of the three surviving children to relieve the burden on Alice after her husband died and because they themselves were childless. The logical child would be the one named William Hast if that was the case. If the birth certificate proves he was Alice and Arthur's child it would be worth sending for copies of their two wills (see the guide on the Essex board to wills). William's schooling shows he was receiving the benefit of William and Louisa's more comfortable circumstances (William Hast left the equivalent of about £84,000 in today's money in his will in 1891). The other family members may also have benefitted.


You may be able to check whether Seaford College have William Hast in their records

http://www.seaford.org/alumni.php



Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Sunday 06 February 11 21:16 GMT (UK)
Thanks Valda - yes I've been in contact with the people currently running the Old Seafordians - still waiting for them to get back to me.  They were celebrating the 90th birthday of the author of their history book (the society is currently run by the author's daughter) so I'm expecting something of a delay!  The original feedback indicates that detailed lists of boarders etc may not be available so I've decided not to hold my breath.

It all hangs on the birth certificate - as usual!  Waiting, waiting, waiting... (not my strong point, but I think this process is going to help me improve it!   :))
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Thursday 24 February 11 02:16 GMT (UK)
Well I am very happy to say that the birth certificate for William Hast Westhorp (the 4th) has arrived and we finally know that everyone is right! 

William Hast Westhorp (4) was born on 11 March 1886 in West Ham and is the missing child of Alice Lucy Dilks and Arthur Edwin Westhorp which means he is Arthur Dilks and Robert Stanley's brother.  He was, therefore, apparently given up to William Hast (3) and his wife Louisa given the census records for him with them.  As noted in Valda's last post WHW (3) was quite wealthy, which may have been something to do with Louisa who was the eldest child of Theophilus Westhorp who had patents on oakum picking machines and ran/owned a factory (the Falcon Works Oakum Factory) in partnership with a Mr Wright.  Theo and family lived in a very large residence (still in existence) with a few domestic servants so Louisa and WHW (3) (who were cousins before they got married and who married quite late) may well have benefited.  Theo is known to have 'passed on' the factory to a William Hast Westhorp - in the docs I've seen this is described as his brother (who would have been too old) so I now suspect it may have been to his nephew/son-in-law.

Very excited now!!


Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: geniecolgan on Thursday 24 February 11 04:43 GMT (UK)
Hi mrsearch,

I'm very pleased the brothers are reunited.

Good news indeed  ;D
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Valda on Thursday 24 February 11 08:26 GMT (UK)
Hi


Theophilus Westhorp died 20th May 1885, will probated at the Principal Registry on 31st August. The two executors were Edward Sharman Morris and Edward Sawyer.

Several interesting wills but unfortunately they take much longer to obtain!


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: pjrcw on Thursday 24 February 11 16:05 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for the information Mrsearch and Valda, Its good to get this cleared up.

If you have not found it already, William Hast Westhorp Grave can be found at www.findagrave.com  under 2nd LT  W H Westhorp memorial # 56380310 which includes pictures etc.

Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Friday 25 February 11 03:17 GMT (UK)
A long time ago I promised a scan of the Arthur Edwin Westhorp and Alice Lucy Dilks marriage certificate.  Here it is...
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: pjrcw on Friday 25 February 11 17:44 GMT (UK)
As promised I have attached two pictures of Arthur Edwin Westhorp and Alice Lucy Westhorp (Dilks).

Although we cannot be 100% certain it is them, by process of elimination etc
we are pretty sure and the pictures were from the Poplar London area.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: mrsearch on Saturday 26 February 11 00:19 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much pjrcw - what a fabulous thing to have!  I hope you won't mind if we attach these to our family tree as possible photos of the forbears.  THe pictures go such a long way towards making what can be dry facts come alive so to speak.
Title: Re: Help Please - Arthur Edwin Westhorp - around 1855
Post by: Clif on Thursday 26 January 17 23:08 GMT (UK)
This thread has solved my Westhorp(e) queries as I was working on one Elizabeth Westhorpe who Married John Aldridge Kittridge 1873 Poplar RD. She was Born Abt 1847 Folkstone, Kent and from the info o nhere daughter of William Hast Westrope and Elizabeth Sweeting.

Births Jun 1848
KITTRIDGE  John Aldridge     Westminster  1 423

England and Wales Census, 1901
Name:   John A Kittridge
Event Place:   Bromley, London, Middlesex,
County:   London, Middlesex
Civil Parish:   Bromley
Ecclesiastical Parish:   Bromley St Michaels & All Angels
Sub-District:   Bromley
Registration District:   Poplar
Residence Note:   Teviot Street
Gender:   Male
Age:   53
Occupation:   Sawyer
Relationship to Head of Household:   Head
Birth Year (Estimated):   1848
Birthplace:   Westminster, London
Schedule Type:   226
Page Number:   30


Household   Role   Gender   Age   Birthplace
John A Kittridge   Head   M   53   Westminster, London
Elizabeth Kittridge   Wife   F   54   Folkestone, Kent
Gertrude A Kittridge   Daughter   F   24   Plaistow, Essex
William A Kittridge   Son   M   22   Bromley, London
Herbert G Kittridge   Son   M   20   Bromley, London
Edward J Kittridge   Son   M   18   Bromley, London
Ann E Kittridge   Daughter   F   16   Bromley, London
A