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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: carrumba on Saturday 29 January 11 12:50 GMT (UK)
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Hello.
Am doing voluntary research on a family tree for work colleague and her mother never knew where her middle name of Sydserff came from- it's quite distinctive!
Have not been able to find out a huge amount the name as such so far but have traced her mothers family through South Leith on Scotlands People to an Alexander Sydserff born in Whittinghame, East Lothian in 1787 (son of Alexander Sydserff and Margaret Dickson). He married a Frances Logan and they had 4 sons and two daughters.
Anyway, if anyone knows anything about the Sydserff family of Whittingham, East Lothian and where they came from I would be most appreciative.
Cheers.
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Hi Carrumba
It is a fairly rare name isn't! Only 187 entries showing for the surname on IGI, and mostly in East Lothian. I found this http://195.153.34.9/catalogue/person.aspx?code=NA22519&st=1& which provides some info on the surname of Sydserff. The reference there to Ruchlaw, I found a reference to a Ruchlaw House, a grade two listed building, on line which is in Whittingham.
Whether this line connects to your family that you are researching, I don't know. Other general info here: www.scottish-places.info/families/familyfirst373.html
Monica
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Hey there Monica- good to hear from you again :-)
I have taken to researching other people's family trees at work whilst I poke at the far reaches of my own tree to stop me getting bored. It's amazing how happy it makes people :-)
So, Sydserff. Yup.. a very funny one and thanks for the link to the article. I thin I had read that in some form copy and pasted somewhere and it is so annoyingly and tantalisingly close to what I am looking for! I am trying to see if i can find who the 4 sons and 4 daughters of Martha Sydserf and Francis Buchan are to try and find a link to my Alexander Sydserff as Francis Buchan assumed the name Sydserff on marriage.
So close... and yet so far!
Thanks for the help! :-)
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There are seven submitted entries showing on IGI, all in Ruchlaw, for the children of Frances Buchan and Martha Sydserff - with the double barrell name of Buchan-Sydserff.
To do a parent search on IGI (in case you haven't done one before), go to the IGI search screen. Simply put in father and mother's full names (in this case I put in Frances Buchan and Martha only) and then British Isles and search, up come the seven entries. Normally you would add a mother's maiden name for Scottish births but with the additions to mother Matha's name, I left it blank!
Monica
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Hmmm. Between 1700 and 1787 i can find only one other Alexander Sydserff born on the IGI in 1747 in Garvald, East Lothian. Possibly the Alexander I am looking for who married Margaret Dickson.
When I look at their son, Alexander Sydserff (born 1787) i notice he was actually born in Whittingehame but his first child by Frances Logan ( Katherine Sydserff - 1814) was born in Garvald. All other children born in Whittingehame.
I am geographically challenged at the best of times - are Garvald and Whittinghame close by?
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Aha! Thanks Monica, i'll have a look
:)
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Answered my own question on Garvald!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garvald,_East_Lothian
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A good parish map for East Lothian www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-lothians.htm
The only IGI birth I can find for children to Alexander Sydserff and Margaret Dickson was also in Garvald, a girl called Catherine - Chr. on 12 Sept 1779 Garvald. Likely more entries on SP than are showing on IGI given you have found Alexander's entry which doesn't show on IGI.
Monica
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Alexander's is on the IGI:
Alexander Sydserf & Margaret Dickson
Alexander Sydserf, Male, Whittengehame, East Lothian, Scotland
birth date: 15 Mar 1787
I can find the birth entry on SP but not his marriage.
Hmmm... I can feel myself getting to saturation stage and needing to step away before my brain crumples under the weight of Sydserff's!
Thanks for the Parish map. Much appreciated. This might be the point where I just pass on everything I have found and let my colleague take the strain of finding anything else. hehehe. Though I must admit, it would be hard to put down such an unusual name search ;-)
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Ahh, that entry comes from the Vital Records database of LDS which doesn't show on the standard database for IGI.
When your head stops hurting or for the friend you are doing this for, you might want to check on the new pilot LDS database http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start ....six pages of Sydseffs in East Lothian, including some of the entries we have been discussing.
Monica
Added: Correction - 13 pages of entries!
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Thanks Monica, I'll check that out later.
As far as SP is concerned. I can find Alexander (son of Alexander and Margaret) birth but cannot find his marriage to Frances Logan.
The only Birth of an Alexander Sydserff on SP before 1787 that could realistically be the Alexander I am looking for is the Alexander Sydserff born in 1747 in Garvald to James Sydserff and Agnes Guillis.
I'll keep poking about a bit more before I highlight this one as a possible.
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Probably the most famous Sydserf of them all was Bishop Thomas Sydserf in the 17th century -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sydserf
Harry
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Had a look in the East Lothian MI books for the name ... :)
Whittinghame
35 Here lyes John & Margrat WOLFES chn [children] to Alexr WOLFE & Mart. SIDESERF. John d. March 1743 aged 9 years, Margt d. April 1748 aged 17 years.
91 Here lyeth the corps of Archd SYDSERFF weaver in P--hol d. 10th April 1728 aged 72 years, wife? ---- FARMER, also of [3] of their children. William SYDSERFF erected this stone. [Ed: per IGI - Archibald SYDSERFF and Margaret FERMAR married Stenton June 1689.)
169 BUCHAN-SYDSERFF of Ruchlaw Burial Ground. (Ed: see Foster, Baronetage 1882 under BUCHAN-HEPBURN - Francis BUCHAN-SYDSERFF of Ruchlaw was 6s [sixth son?] of John BUCHAN of Letham and he changed his name when he married Matilda [sic] heiress of John SYDSERFF of Ruchlaw, their son John of Ruchlaw d. 1839 (wife Marguerite OLIVIER, of St. Anne's Alderney, 1st son of Thomas of Ruchlaw JP b. 1822 (married 1847 Marguerite Higgins MOWBRAY, of Hartwood, Midlothian (son John b. 1848 etc,); see Stenton inscriptions 51-53; Edinburgh Testaments 1514-1800 index (SRS) list 10 x testaments of SYDSERFFS of Ruchlaw (1532-1782)
Stenton
51 mural. Thomas Buchan SYDSERFF of Ruchlaw 26th January 1822 - 25th January 1905, wife Margaret Higgins MOWBRAY 9th September 1826 - 18th November 1896, 3d [third daughter?] Eleanor 12th September 1854 - 29th November 1919
52 celtic cross. John BUCHAN-SYDSERFF younger of Ruchlaw d. 23rd March 1901 aged 52 years; son Archibald Thomas d. December 1899 aged 6 months, wife Charlotte Anne d. 1st March 1947 aged 90 years, daughter Rosetta Margaret 12th May 1954 aged 59 years, daughter Norah Kathleen died 21st December 1984 aged 87 years (wife of Nugent GLOUCHER), also Marie Buchan SYDSERFF died 23rd July 1992 aged 87 years (Ed: see stained glass windows inside the church.)
53 mural. Thomas & Margaret H. Buchan SYDSERFF of Ruchlaw, youngest son Archibald Seymour, 11th May 1865 - 1st January 1879
Tranent
257 Imo [In Memory Of] Janet Marion BUCHAN SYDSERFF died 5th March 1847 aged 48 years, husband H. Francis CADELL Esq. Cockenzie 27th April 1779 - 27th April 1843, also children Charles, William, George, Marion, John, Annie. (Ed: from M'Neil (1883), Tranent, p. 6; Franks (1842), Evidence of Children in Collieries; DNB.)
Prestonpans West
69 large. John FOWLER brewer Prestonpans 9th July 1756 - 13th July 1839. Robert HISLOP born 7th June 1789 died 16th January 1872, wife Ann Buchan SYDSERFF 19th May 1801 - 31st March 187, children; Francis 26th August 1826 - 12th March 1860, Robert 25th March 1831 - 3rd July 1870, also Phemie, George, Charlie, d. infancy John Fowler HISLOP 18th October 1823 - 6th August 1894
Quite a family! :)
hume
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As far as SP is concerned. I can find Alexander (son of Alexander and Margaret) birth but cannot find his marriage to Frances Logan.
It can be found under Frances LOGAN/Alexander SIDSERF, 1810, Morham.
hume :)
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Hume> Many many thanks for all the information! Much appreciated! Hopefully I'll be able to tie my friends family into one of these entries eventually.
Have looked back at the info I have after a bit of a break and my sticking point is as follows:-
I have The birth entry on IGI for Alexander Sydserff, 15 Mar 1787 (Baptised 25 Mar 1787) in Whittingehame, East Lothian. Parents are Alexander Sydserff and Margaret Dickson. I can also find the entries for the births on the IGI of their children, namely:
Katherine (1814)
Alexander (1816)
Helen (1818)
Peter (1820)
Francis (1822)
John (1823)
The problem is I can find no marriage entry on IGI or Scotlands People. The closes I can find is a Patrick Sydserff to a Magreat Dixson in 1727.
S T U M P E D
Got some time off work this afternoon so going to continue to poke away at the edges and bits of info to see what falls out!
<<EDIT>>
Through the IGI the only two possibilities for Alexander's (the one that married Margaret Dickson) parents would be Alexander Sidserff born 18 Jan 1747 in Garvald, East Lothian or a Garrett Alexander Sydserff born in Edinburgh 19 Sep 1746.
Given the location in East Lothian the first would be the favourite option but I am reluctant to definitely pin this Sydserff line to that entry until I can resolve Alexander Sydserff and Margaret Dickson's marriage. Had a quick peek at English marriage entries but to no avail...
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Hi carrumba,
Like yourself, I'm finding it difficult to find any trace of Alexander and Margaret's marriage. It's not uncommon though not to find these records; sometimes never recorded in the first place or lost over the years. I have however found a full [hopefully ;D] list of children for them;
1. Catharine Sydserf, bapt. 12th September 1779 Garvald (parents Alexander Sydserff and Margaret Dickson)
2. James Sydeserff, bapt. 10th December 1780 (born 23rd November) Yester (parents Alexander Sydeserff and Margaret Dickson, residence Sheriffside)
3. Agnes Sydney [sic], bapt. 24th December 1782 (born 14th December) Whittingham (parents Alexander Sydney [sic] and Margaret Dickson)
4. John Sydserff, bapt. 27th March 1785 (born 12th March) Whittingham (parents John [sic] Sydserff and Margaret Dickson)
5. Alexander Sydserff, bapt. 25th March 1787 (born 15th March) Whittingham (parents Alexander Sydserff and Margaret Dickson)
From the names used for their children, I think this is a possibility for Margaret's birth;
Margaret Dickson, bapt. 21st April 1751 Garvald (parents John Dickson and Katherin [sic] Henderson, residence, Walden; witnesses William Sanderson & Archibald Dickson) - a twin with Shusan [sic], who was born first.
Can you give us details of the birth you found for Alexander? Naming would suggest parents could or should be James and Agnes.
hume :)
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Hmmm... well... can i ask why you would say the parents names should/could be James or Agnes? Why not Catherine? I am intrigued to learn more!
I am also quite impressed as the possible entry I had for Alexander's birth is as follows:-
Garvald, East Lothian
Alexander Sydserff born 18 Jan 1747
Parents: James Sydserff & Agnes Guillis (Gillies?)
The East Lothian connection seems to be right. Let me know what you think! On IGI by the way.
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Hi carrumba,
My guess was from using Scottish naming patterns. They are (generally) as follows;
1st son named after father's father (James)
2nd son named after mother's father (John)
3rd son named after father (Alexander)
1st daughter named after mother's mother (Catharine)
2nd daughter named after father's mother (Agnes)
3rd daughter named after mother (? would have been Margaret)
-- above from ScotlandsPeople (http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?561)
While not always rigidly stuck to, it can be a great clue for giving the names of maternal and paternal grandparents, etc.
I didn't see that entry on the IGI, but I now see it's only included in the newest section of the site. That does reaffirm my thoughts that I'm missing entries by using the "old ways". ;D It does look a likely match for Alexander given the above.
http://www.freereg.org.uk/ is very good for looking at East Lothian OPRs. Not the original images, I'm afraid, but transcriptions. The 1747 entry is there (although transcribed as Lydserff). It gives baptism date of 10th Janaury 1747? with parents James Lydserff and Agnes Guillis, of Baro. Witnesses were William and John Kemp, also of Baro.
Now the interesting thing will be to find a marriage between James and Agnes!
hume
PS. Baro is likely the parish of Bara which united with Garvald in 1702.
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Heya Hume,
Thanks for that piece on naming traditions... useful bit of info and I cannot believe I didn't see it before! Makes sense.
With that in mind, I think Alexander's parents are most likely to be James Sydserff and Agnes Guillis. Unfortunately, I cannot track down anything on the site you recommended, IGI or Scotlands People for a marriage. The IGI does have them listed as parents at Alexander's birth (1747 baptised 18 Jan, Garvald) but is all I have been able to find so far. I'll keep poking about today though in between tidying the kitchen and trying to keep the 4 year old daughter in check!
Thanks for all your help so far... is a fascinating search!
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Had a look at the Dickson side and found the entries you mentioned for Margaret and Shusan (sic) Dickson born as twins 21 Apr 1751. Parents were John Dickson and Catherine(Katherin) Henderson of Garvald, East Lothian.
Also found:-
Archibald Dickson 27 Mar 1737- Yester
James Dickson 29 Jul 1739 - Garvald
Robert Dickson 26 Dec 1742 - Garvald
John Dickson 3 May 1745 - Garvald
Isabell Dickson 30 Oct 1748 - Garvald
Shusan Dickson 21 Apr 1751 - Garvald
Margaret Dickson 21 Apr 1751 - Garvald
Robert Dickson 4 May 1756- Yester
20 years of having kids... ouch.
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Aha!
SP website has a birth for James Sydserf born 20/4/1690 in Prestonkirk, E Lothian.
Parents: Archibald Sydserf & Margaret Farmer
Mind you, on IGI i also have:
James Sydeserfe born in Haddington in 1695 to James Sydeserfe and Catherine Sutie
Only results found for a James Sydserf so far. Will keep looking though.
Still no luck on James Sydserf and Agnes Guillis marriage certificate though. I am beginning to think marriage entries for that area have been lost or, like you say, just weren't properly recorded.
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I have most of the sydserff family tree from Alexander and Margaret Dickson onwards.
Some of their children settled in Leith the remainder stayed in East Lothian and were mainly farm workers. My mother was descended from the East Lothian branch.
I believe there is information that has been compiled by someone else researching the Sydserffs at the family history center in Haddington library although I haven't seen it myself.
Children of Alexander and Margaret were: Margaret 1812, Cathrerine 1814, Alexander 1816, Helen 1818, Peter 1820, Francis 1822 and John 1823.
Margaret, Catherine and Alexander all settled in Leith. Helen, Peter and John remained in East Lothian and the last entry I have been able to find for Francis was in London.
Would be happy to share the info I have - not sure how much detail you want.
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Sasha97>
Fantastic! Any info that you have would be most welcome and i can pass it on. The person I am researching for is descended through Alexander and Leith. From what you have said so far, it looks like I have got everything right so far... which is a relief! Always good to get independent confirmation of your findings.
Anything you could share would be most appreciated. Message me and I'l pass on my email :-)
Interesting to know there may be more info in Haddington Library. Excellent!
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Great new Carrumba!
Welcome to RootsChat Sacha :)
Sacha needs to post at least 2/3 times before the Private Message service (PMs) is activated though. A couple of more posts here on the main forum, Sacha, and you should then be able to exchange personal emails via the PM system.
Monica
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Hope these attatched files work.
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All the information I have re the Sydserffs have been obtained from the records on scotlands people site, or the IGI plus some family records so should be reasonably accurate.
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will be interesting to look at so I can check what I have so far. After my initial excitement I looked at the tree I had created so far and the D.O.B's you'd quoted were in the early 1800's whereas the births I had were mid 1700's. Also...couple of childrens names were different. Could be that I was looking a generation back so I look forward to seeing your trees. :-) My work too has been gathered from IGI and SP as haven't found anyone else with a Sydserff tree so far! Heheheh. ;D
**EDIT**
Phew! Yes, I mis-read your earlier post and was looking at the wrong generation! Hooray! Thank you so much! There are dates of death, occupations etc that I hadn't found so far. Much appreciated. I am in the process of trying to take the line back further - i'll let you know of anything that I can nail down as definite. I possibly have the parents of Alexander (born 1787) but would like to check a few other bits and pieces out before I commit to it.
Interesting that you have Alexander dying in Prestonkirk as that is the possible location i have for the birth of his father. Interesting... :D
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The local paper, East Lothian Courier, could be a place to check the archives. I thought I had the news-cutting but can't lay my hands on it - back in the 1980s or may even be the 1990s there was a front page article as the property was being sold and it contained quite a bit of information on the Sydserffs and Buchans. Sorry I can't be more definite about dates.
Gillian
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I have just read the posts relating to Sydserfs in East Lothian and have a John Sydserf who married Isabella Herkes in my family tree. He was born 9/9/1827 and his parents were Alexander Sydserf and Francis Logan whose name continues down through the family for some time. I have nothing before their marriage on him but do have their children on downwards.