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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: santel on Sunday 30 January 11 09:34 GMT (UK)
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From the 1881 UK census I have that John Telford of Liverpool was born in Westmeath, Ireland in 1836.
I also have from Famine Relief Papers, Nat Archives, a Captain William Telford who was appointed inspecting officer over all Co Westmeath, with a brother John Telford who seems to have been a landlord (from Becoming Irlandes by Edmundo Murray) 1845-47. Also that Capt William Telford was formerly from Clara, Kings Co.
In the Edinburgh Gazette, War Office records 1846 - 53rd, Capt William Telford from half pay 1st Dragoons to be paymaster, vice Rich B Low, who retires half pay as Capt.
I would appreciate anything which can clarify or add to this information - I cannot connect the Capt and John his brother to my ancestor in Liverpool.
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Might be difficult but there are perhaps a few things you could try.
Do you have a marriage in England for your John Telford? if so, his father's name and occupation should be listed.
What's John's occupation in England? does it seem to 'fit' wth Captain William, etc. that you've found in Irish records? see from 1881 census John is listed as a labourer,
Have you found your John Telford in any other English census records? Son William is 18 in 1881 and born Liverpool so the family should be in 1871 census at least.
Any idea when John Telford died?
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John's wife (Mary)Ann was born in Queens Co, Ireland - I can find no record of their marriage.
There is possibly a daughter older than William (Mary Ann raised a grandchild, John Henry Coleman b 1887, Liverpool) Their marriage was possibly abt 1860.
Can't find them in the 1871 census, but John died before 1891 - possibly W Derby 1886.
There is an enclave of Telfords at Kirkdale - Mary(Ann) and children are among them in the 1891 & 1901 census'
I have nothing to connect the Capt William and his brothrer John with our John except they are the only Telfords I can find in Westmeath. One of them could be his father - long shot.
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Telford is not an uncommon surname in Westmeath. If you search IGI (www.familysearch.org) for 'Telford' in Westmeath there are quite a few entries.
What worries me are the differences in occupations/status of John Telford and the other's you've mentioned.
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Yes, I guess if John's father was an inspecting officer for famine relief or landlord, it is unlikely his son would end up in the docks of Liverpool as a labourer- not impossible, but unlikely.
I did find a Johannes Telford and Maria Rourke marriage in 1858 in Co Westmeath - Ann used the names Mary and Mary A in England - is it likely they Anglicised these names?
I may just have to be content with the fact John and Ann were born in Ireland unless more information comes to light in the future.
There is a lot of GRO information yet to come out of Liverpool.
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Church records would have been written with Latin versions of Christian names so it wasn't a matter of Anglicising their names but merely John in church records as Johannes and Mary/Mary A. as Maria.
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True? Then there is a good chance this is them !!
I have a number of European ancestors - Johannes/Johann and Johanna are very German/Dutch - is that from the Latin also?
Would that make them RC - they named their 1st son William which I was told in another thread is a very definite indication of Protestantism. Or did the Protestants write in Latin then also? I love history, but never got into the church side of it !!
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I've never seen a non-Catholic church register that used Latin forms. Here's a short list of Latin names-
http://www.british-genealogy.com/parish-registers/registers-latin-names.html
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Thank you, very interesting - it puts Johannes and Maria within our reach - I will try to find that marriage for more information.
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I think you may find that your John TELFORD could be the son Richard TELFORD (1801-1888) and his wife Mary WHITAKER (1798-1866) of Tara, Offaly. This couple had a son Richard (1838-1923) who was born in Westmeath in 1838. Richard TELFORD's (1801-1888) father was John TELFORD (1756-1831) of Sallybrook, Clara, Offaly.
Captain (later Major) William TELFORD (1795-1873) of Derrycooley, Offaly and later Rathmines, Dublin and his brother John TELFORD (1802-1856) of Ballyboughlin, Offaly were two of nine children born to William TEFORD (1770-1837) and Eliza FINN (1765-1854) of Greenville, Clara, Offaly. This John TELFORD (1802-1856) did have a son John Gardener TELFORD (1842-2/12/1918) who died at West Derby, Lancs however it is my understanding that John G. TELFORD was born at Ballyboughlin and living in Toronto, Canada in 1881. He was certainly there in Dec 1880. His wife Eliza Jane BLUE died at Pine Bluff, Arkansas, USA in 1888.
Four of William TELFORD's (1795-1873) children migrated to Victoria, Australia in the 1850s. One of his sons, Charles TELFORD died at Derrycooley on 29/3/1860. William died at Rathmines, Dublin whilst living with his youngest sister Mrs Sally Elizabeth FLETCHER (1804-1878). Sally's husband was Dublin barrister, Wellesley Pole FLETCHER (1797-1869).
The TELFORDs arrived in Ireland around 1715 from Skipton, Yorkshire. John (1756-1831) and William TELFORD (1770-1837) were great grandsons of Michael TELFORD from Skipton.
Regards,
Self
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Thanks so much for that information. I'm sure our Telfords are connected there somewhere, but I don't think Richard is our John's (1836-?1886) father. On his marriage cert our John's father is named James Tedford. James is possibly a brother to Richard.
Our John named his first son William John, his 2nd Thomas and his 3rd James.
The birth of his first child, Mary Jane Telford, was registered in USA in 1861. There is a reference to her birth in the Channel Islands - possibly on board ship. The family returned to Lancashire by 1863 when William John was born. They returned to USA in 1883, probably to visit relatives, and had with them Fanny Telford aged 7 who was the daughter of William and Mary Telford of Kirkdale, Lancashire where they also lived, possibly daughter of John's brother.
Santel
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Sally Elizabeth Telford m Wellesley Pole Fletcher. W P Fletcher was my g.g.grandfather Wm Fletcher's brother. Sally and her brother, Maj Wm Telford are buried in the Fletcher family vault in Mount Jerome Cemetery Dublin.
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see plots 14712 to 14714
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/photos/tombstones/1headstones/mt-jerome99.txt
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Many thanks.
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Hello tom fletcher, I note you are a descendant of Wellesley pole fletcher 1798-1869 and his wife Sally Elizabeth Telford 1804-78 I am a ggg grandson of William Telford 1797-1873 who was Wellesley's brother in law, who was buried in the same mount hero me cemetery grave.
Recently, so I believed, I located all the great grandchildren of William and Sally and their seven siblings.
It was my understanding that Wellesley and Sally had four children;
A. Stephen 1829-1856 who married Emily olive Elizabeth Whitley 1829-1857 and had no children.
B. Elizabeth 1830-1840.
C. Mary 1832-1860- up married
D. William pole fletcher 1836-1916 who married Ellen Blanche Daniel-tyssen 1851-1920.
I understand William & Ellen had four children;
A. Gwendoline Blanche 1883-1977 who married Henry Haines collet 1873-1952.
B. guy Wellesley pole fletcher 1886-1942 who married eda Elizabeth farmer 1884-1970 who had two daughters.
C. Kathleen Mary 1888-1959 who married Walter Harold finding Allen 1887-1969.
D. John Mornington Bruce fletcher 1892-1966 who was unmarried.
As a result, my question is where does your surname fit into the information below?
I value any assistance you can provide,
Regards,
Self
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More information on how my family is connected:
My g.g.grandfather, William Fletcher was Wellesley Pole Fletcher's brother.
My Fletcher line from William is
Deputy Commissary General William Fletcher/Hannah Hone;
William Hone Fletcher/Margaret Smith;
Thomas Charles Fletcher/Mabel Louisa Lamb;
Cuthbert Thomas Fletcher/Edith Mary Fletcher;
Thomas Cuthbert Fletcher (Me).
William Fletcher served in the Commissary Department of the British Army. He was posted to Hobart Town Van Diemens Land (Tasmania) Australia. He also had another brother, Thomas who served under Wellington in the Peninsular War against Napoleon. This fellow was posted to Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and attained the rank of Lt Colonel.
I have done a lot of research on my Fletcher family and it seems, although I can't prove it, we are connected to the Wellesley/Wellington family in some way.
Maybe being connected to "The Iron Duke" assisted Wm and Thos in their various promotions. Would love to know whether there is a connection. However, it is rather difficult as I live in Australia. Still, the internet is a good substitute.
Cheers,
Tom
PS - Wellesley and Telford are also family second names.
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Hello Tom,
Unfortunately I don't know a lot about the FLETCHERs, my connection being with the TELFORDs. In other words you can probably help me more than I can help you? There is an Irish probate listing for a Thomas Henry FLETCHER who died on 26 June 1874 in San Francisco, USA and who named William Wellesley Pole FLETCHER as his executor. The listing suggests Thomas was a brother, however I can find no age, DOB or baptism which can support this and he may very well be a cousin.
Can you assist?
Regards,
Geoff
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Geoff,
This has certainly muddied the waters, so to speak. I would think he is a cousin. However, I will get back to you on this one.
Cheers,
Tom
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Geoff,
I have attached a printout from my Legacy FH File. This goes as far as my g.ggrandfather Wm Hone Fletcher. The information on George Fletcher and his family is scanty. However, you can see the predominance of the name, William in the family which was, at first, very confusing for me. I suggest that Thomas Henry Fletcher may be from The Judge Wm Fletcher family. I was able to work out Rev Stephens family from Lt Col Thos Will. When I obtained the will of his brother Wm (my g.g.grandfather) I thought all would be revealed but it only mentions his wife Hannah. Hannah's will likewise only refers to the Tasmanian (Australian) family.
Cheers,
Tom
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Tom,
I recently obtained an Irish marriage certificate for a Thomas Henry FLETCHER dated 7 July 1854. The certificate states this Thomas Henry FLETCHER, a merchant and widower from Newry, married a Grace Anne JOHNSTONE, the daughter of an Andrew JOHNSTONE. Thomas' father was a William FLETCHER an upholsterer. The couple were married in the parish of Donnybrook, Dublin.
I am unsure if this is the same Thomas Henry FLETCHER we have been talking about?
Regards,
Geoff
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Grace Anne Fletcher died 1909 formerly of Dalkey and Kati Kati,Auckland ,N Zealand administration to John McCombe,accountant
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014916/005014916_00443.pdf
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Well that answers that question, never assume. FLETCHER is a very common name and obviously there was more than one Thomas Henry FLETCHER from Ireland in the mid 1800s,
Regards,
Geoff
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They could still well be related. However, I just realized where I heard the name Thomas Henry Fletcher before - Another Fletcher family I know here in Australia originated from Warwickshire England although they know very little about their ancestry and they don't know how the Henry name got into the family.
To confuse matters even more, my g.g.grandparents bore a crest on their crockery. This crest - A talbot (large dog) with the motto - Dieu pour nous is reputedly that of the Gloucestershire, Warwickshire (England) and Saltoun (Scotland) Fletcher Families.
Family research is frustrating at times.
Cheers,
Tom
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Hello Tom,
I can't see how this Thomas Henry FLETCHER who died in San Francisco in 1874 couldn't be related to our William Wellesley Pole FLETCHER (1836-1918).
I can't find another person of that same age, who was living in Dublin, Ireland in 1874 and who had any connection to the Christian name of Wellesley? I know FLETCHER is a common surname, but Wellesley is very uncommon. The Irish probate listing also states he was the brother of Thomas Henry. I am aware that some of these families repeatedly used a maternal surname: the surname Telford is spread right across my family, but a name such as William Wellesley Pole FLETCHER, who was an adult and living in Dublin in 1874 is not so common.
Our William Pole FLETCHER was born in approximately 1836 and his known siblings were Stephen (born 1829), Elizabeth (born 1830) and Mary (born 1832). This leaves a four year gap between 1832 and when our William was born in 1836. Their mother Sally Elizabeth nee TELFORD (1804-1878) was still short of the end of her child bearing years in 1836, perhaps this Thomas Henry was born in 1838?
Regards,
Geoff