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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Merionethshire => Wales => Merionethshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: bonehunter on Tuesday 01 February 11 21:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Dont know if I am on the right board ??? ???
Could someone do a lookup for my gtgt grandfathers baptism as I am trying to find his parents.
He was
Robert Davies b 11jun1833 it says LLangollen on the census.
Any help would be appreciated
Thx ;D ;D
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Hi :)
Most of the Llangollen requests are on the Denbighshire board. However, no problem as we all look at neighbouring boards. Llangollen was in the Corwen Union and Registration District which was in Merionethshire.
I've checked the parish records for a baptism but there isn't one in Llangollen around that time. It maybe that he was either baptised in another parish or maybe his parents were non-conformist :-\
JL
The spell checker has offered me Debauchery rather than Denbighshire. I've not noticed this before :-X :-X :-X ;D ;D ;D
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Hi again
I've just looked in the non-conformist records that I have (by no means complete) and I don't see him :-\
What is the earliest census that you have him on and where was he?
JL
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hi Jl
I have him ??? ??? on the 1841 Gweddelwern aged 9 but i am not convinced as it says his father was Thomas Davies aged 60 and Jane davies age 35
thank you for taking the time to look :D :D
lorrae
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Hi lorrae
Is this him in 1881:
Nant y Ffrith
RG11/3567/6 8
Davies
Robert, 48, miller (corn) b. Denbighs, Llangollen
Arabella, 47, b. Salop, Shrewsbury
Richard, 25, coal miner, b. Salop, Pen-y-berth (?)
Robert, 18, labourer, b. Flints, Rhyd-y-mewyn
Edward, 15, learning to be a coal miner, b. -do-
Arabella, 14, b. -do-
Elizabeth, 7, b. Flints, Ffrith
Do you have any information on his marriage? This would give you his father's name and occupation.
This could be their marriage (only one showing for a Robert Davies and an Arabella on Freebmd)
June 1870, Holywell, 11b 501
Robert Davies and Arabella Ffoulkes are on the same page
If this is them, then the earlier children could be from an earlier partnership of one or both of them
JL
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Hi JL
That is my Robert Davies and I have his marriage cert he married Bella Griffiths.
On the cert it says Thomas Davies was his father and he was a miller which corresponds with Robert being a miller in later life.
I was trying to find out if the Thomas and Jane on the 1841 census was Robert Davies parents, and their marriage ;D ;D
Thank you for all your time and help
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Hi Lorrae and JL,
You may have this already, but it could be useful to post it into the thread for others' reference. Seems to validate the 1881 entry found by JL; but there are also some interesting mismatches in the data. The marriage was evidently pre-1870.
1861 Census -- Parish of St John the Baptist, Chester
RG9/2626 fo.57r p.7
DAVIES
Robert, Head, Mar, 28, Corn Miller, b. Merionethshire
Arabella, Wife, Mar, 27, -- , b. Flintshire Mold
Richard, Son, -- , 5, Scholar, b. [ditto]
Martha J, Daur, -- , 7, [ditto], b. [ditto]
Isaac, Brother, Un, 21, Corn Miller, b. Merionethshire
(Children in age order shown.)
Rol
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Hi Rol
Thanks. Lorrae mentioned that Arabella was Bella Griffiths. Marriage:
Dec q 1853. Holywell, 11b 491
Robert Davies and Bella Griffiths are on the same page.
JL
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Looks good. :)
Rol
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The nearest that I can come to a possible father in 1851 in the area is this one. I'm not convinced though and Robert is not there ~
Glasfryn, Hafod Maidd, Gwyddelwern
HO107/2509/51/13
Davies
Thomas, 43, Miller, b. Bryneglwys, Denbs
Sarah, 39, b. Halkin
Thomas, 11, b. Llandegla
John, 8, b. Mold
Margaret, 7, b. -do-
Elizabeth, 5, b. -do-
Price, 3, b. -do-
Liza Hannah, visitor, unm, 48, b. Bryneglwys
JL
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::)
I've just noticed the Isaac described as brother on your 1861 - this would thus confirm the 1841 find - HO107/1428/15/11/15 with Thomas and Jane as parents.
JL
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Mmm. I couldn't see anything much in 1851 either, though only had a quick look.
I do share your doubts about that one, JL. The Gwyddelwern name attracts; but I think it is just the sub-RD. Looks to me like the entry for Hafod y Maidd Mill near the hamlet of Glasfryn -- west of Cerrigydrudion, rather than in the par. of Gwyddelwern. :(
Ref. Isaac -- yes, I used him as the searching proxy and found the 1861 entry via him.
Got to go and do other things now, unfortunately.
R
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Just adding this ~
In 1871, they're already in Frith
RG10/3738/12/18
All down as b. Flintshire except daughter Martha Jane (note the Jane) down as born Llangollen. Robert now born Ruthin, Flintshire! Younger children and Arabella b. Mold
JL
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1891
Leeswood Mill, Mold
RG12/4610/76/14
Davies
Robert, 56, Miller, b. Ruthin
Isabella, 55, b. Mold
Robert N, grdson, 14, Waggoner, b. Hope
JL
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:D
1901
Alun Bank, Pontblyddyn, Mold
RG13/5213/65/1&2
Davies
Robert, 70, retired miller, b. Gwyddelwern
Isabella, 69, b. Pantymwyn, Flints
Robert Thos, grdson, 16, farm labourer, b. Leeswood
plus two boarders
Unfortunately my Gwyddelwern records don't go that far :-\
JL
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Here are Jane and Isaac in 1851 - not yet found Robert
Gerraint, Bache, Llangollen
HO107/2509/458/9
Davies
Jane, widow, 49, b. Llandderfel, Merionethshire
Isaac, 12, b. Llangollen
Mary, 6, b. -do-
JL
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You've made great strides, JL. Good to have found the widow and Isaac at Llangollen in 1851. :)
I have been taking a closer look at the topography. Llwyn mill is not marked on Streetmap's version of the metric 2½" map, but everything becomes clear on the Old Maps site (http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html). Easiest way in is to enter the co-ordinates 307960 350260 on their home page. The schematic guide-map to which those refs lead marks the place as Felin Llwyn (i.e. a cymrically-correct version of the form used in the 1841 census entry). If one then loads either of the two 25" (1:2,500) maps on offer from the 1870s, the place comes up flying its older, unabbreviated colours: Llwyn y Brain Mill.
That locates the building close to the south bank of the River Clwyd (county/parish boundary), and so on the extreme north-eastern tip of both the parish of Gwyddelwern and the county of Merioneth -- its mill race being fed from a weir just by Bryn Saith Marchog Bridge.
The implication for FH research purposes is that it would be well worth someone with the necessary access checking out the PRs for Derwen -- that church, although in the next county, being just over the river and up the hill, and so a fair bit more convenient than the parish church at Gwyddelwern. I know the people at Meyarth -- a house slightly upstream of Llwyn Mill -- had phases when they used Derwen. Another possibility, always assuming the Llwyn family were church rather than chapel goers, could be Llanelidan (also closer than Gwyddelwern).
Rol
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You've made great strides, JL.
???
Thank you , Miss
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You've made great strides, JL.
???
...
;D ;D ;D
OK, sorry, it's so easy to cause unintentional schoolroom upset -- I have to admit that I did forget to attach your ☆ ☆ ☆ ;)
...
Thank you , Miss
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Only great strides with investigations in this thread mind . . . I am sure there is no risk of my making anyone in the class over-confident; but perhaps best to make that original limitation even clearer. ;)
Sir ;)
P.S. Hope you reckon the boy dun (a bit) good too, even if so far he has only scraped one ☆ and then been caught in an offside trap during Games . . .
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Lorrae, as I hope you will agree, taken together the various census entries do seem to confirm the implications of the 1841 entry at Gwyddelwern about which you knew before your opening post -- i.e., it does look highly likely that your Robert Davies was the son of Thomas the miller. Sorry that neither JL (Reply 14) nor I have access to the PRs you wanted checked for his baptism to provide definitive evidence; fingers crossed that someone else will step forward to help with that. (Incidentally, I did mean to ask before what the source was for the 11 June 1833 DoB you mentioned at the outset -- perhaps a family bible?)
Aside from your original lookup request for that baptism, I take it that so far you have not pursued Thomas the miller much -- though of course you may have a fair bit more about him than you needed to post for the purpose of the baptism hunt. On the double assumption that you would like to push further back and have yet to do so, a key requirement will obviously be to discover an approximate date of birth for him that is rather more precise than the five year span implied by his 1841 census entry.
Thanks to JL's discovery that Thomas's wife was a widow in 1851 (Reply 15), we now know that we shall not be able to obtain a more accurate age for him via the censuses. So the next best tactic -- in the absence of help from someone with access to the later burial registers or local MIs -- would seem to be to go hunting for his civil death cert. If you decide to follow that route, you may find the following potentially useful, provided that he died at or near his old home.
Thomas Davies
Possible death entries in Gwyddelwern sub-district of Corwen RD, 1841-51
Local registration references per N Wales BMD:
1842
ELWERN/01/98
ELWERN/02/7
1847
ELWERN/02/92
1849
ELWERN/03/32
1851
ELWERN/03/65
ELWERN/03/78
The relevant registers are now in the custody of the Registrar of BMDs at Ruthin (http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/en-gb/DNAP-74ZLST). As you probably know, local registrars are usually very helpful in identifying the correct entries. If you give the registry at Ruthin a ring and explain that you want the cert. for a Gwyddelwern miller called Thomas Davies who died aged 60-75 and cite the above six possible refs for checking, there is a good chance you will obtain the death cert. without needing to make multiple applications.
Rol
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Hi Rol
For starters may I thank you and JL for all the work looking at records for me it is really really appreciated. :D :D :D
The source I have for Robert is unfortunately not a family bible but from L.D.S.
I havent really explored Thomas as I wasnt really sure he was mine but from all the info I think I can safely say he is Roberts father.
I am going to follow your advice of aquiring a death cert for him and thank you for the reference numbers.
I am also going to see if I can get a birth cert for Roberts brother Isaac as maybe that will also confirm the parents.
Once again much appreciation for what you both have done :) :) :)
Lorrae
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... The source I have for Robert is unfortunately not a family bible but from L.D.S. ...
Ah, OK -- thanks, Lorrae.
Good thought to get a cert. for Isaac -- the parents obligingly waited until the start of civil registration to have him and then picked a nice distinctive name! As you've doubtless already seen, this seems to be his ref. on NW BMD:
1838 -- ELWERN/01/16
So Thomas and Jane seem not to have been among the slackers who did not bother to register births in those early years.
Glad to have been able to help; but it was JL who did the heavy lifting -- she is a real magician with those census databases. :)
Do let us know what comes up on the certs. when they arrive.
Rol
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Hi Rol
This is not the first time I have thought of getting birth cert for Isaac I did send for the one that you have given the reference for quite a while ago, but it was the wrong another one for the collection haha :) :) :)
So I will look on NW BMD to see if i can find him.
Will let you know how I get on with cert for Thomas
A great big thanks for the heavy lifting JL :) :)
Lorrae
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Hi again Lorrae,
Oh dear, you must have been irritated by that one -- and it looked quite a reasonable bet. :( (Been there, done that . . . )
Maybe they were "slackers" after all? If not, perhaps alternative and longer shots you are considering are
1839 -- Llanelidan (v. close; next sub-RD east): ELIDAN/01/26
or
1840 -- Bala (includes Llandderfel, mother's place of birth; but going-home-to-mum's is more of a first confinement thing; and the date is obviously on the late side): BALB/01/E456
Another puzzle to join the throng . . .
R
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Hi its me again
When you say
1840 ---Bala (includes Llandderfel, mothers place of birth ) whose mother were you refering to.
Hope I am not driving you mad ::) ::)
Lorrae
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R
Ignore that last post just realised it was where Jane was born.
Think my heads overheating now ;D ;D ;D
lorrae
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... Think my heads overheating now ;D
;D ;D
It all gets me like that quite often too. :) Anyway, I ought probably to have made the point more clearly.
R
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Hi you two - Ms heavy lifter here ;D
Could one of you summarise what is needed, please, as I might be able to twist someone's arm/ask nicely for some post-1812 lookups.
JL
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Hi JL :)
That sounds enticing! Excellent if you can deploy some local help with this. But I should probably cede paramountcy on what lookups are wanted to Lorrae, as original poster. Plus I am now feeling a bit agnostic on the best next step (beyond ascertaining Thomas's age-at-death in the period 1841-51) -- in the light of Lorrae describing her "11 June 1833" for Robert Davies's birth/baptism as LDS-sourced.
Out of habit I tend not to think of the IGI &c as much use for most of N Wales, because of that ancient row the LDS had with the Church in Wales -- though I occasionally hear tell of scanning progress in more recent times, since they reached a truce. (Not sure when the results of that are going to be released. Perhaps already started.)
Anyway, as you may already have seen, the old IGI brings up no useful hits for Robert 1831-3 in Merion., but four candidates in Denbighs. On looking at the one (?)cited by Lorrae, I more than ha' me doots: a Wesleyan baptism at Ruthin, with mother's maiden name showing as Philips.
But . . . there is another bapt., on 30 June 1832, for parents listed as Thomas Davies and Jane, at "Derwen by Corwen"; batch is C090161. That did catch my eye, bearing in mind last para of my Reply 16. Do you remember how to discover (from the Hugh Wallis site, the LDS Salt Lake Library catalogue, or otherwise) the full batch source description? Unfortunately a search for others with the same parents turns up little else there; but of course people did swap preferred christening venues quite often in that period. The place is oddly labelled; still, pro tem. I am guessing that the entry comes from the Anglican BTs rather than one of the nonconformist chapels.
Struck me as at least worth checking further. What think you?
R
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Hi Rol
I recall the refusal of the Church in Wales to allow the Church of LDS access to the records. The agreement finally reached was for them to film the BTs. The online records are particularly sparce in the areas that I'm interested in and, because of this, I have hardly used them. Thank goodness for the Clwyd transcripts! Also, of course, one can order the BT films via the local LDS FH Centres. The new pilot site does look promising. However, we are also faced with a high percentage of non-conformity (and a vast number of missing records in this category). I'm stymied in both Llansilin and the SE Merionethshire parishes because of this :(
I'm not sure what info you require about batches but you can either go to Hugh Wallis
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0br1/
or check the listing here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0br0/
JL
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Hi JL and Rol
I think now I maybe totally confused. ::) ::)
I did see the record for THOMAS DAVIES AND JANE PHILLIPS on LDS so assumed that they were Roberts parents as I couldnt find anything else. It would be great to find a marriage but think that might be askin for a miracle haha
I find it confusing as on the censuse Robert born different places
I have sent for Thomases death cert by so hopefully that will shed a bit of light on my tree :D :D.
Thank you both ;D ;D
Lorrae
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Hi both,
JL, many thanks for that info. I was being slow-witted and had forgotten that one could jump directly to the full description of the batch's source in the FHL catalogue simply by clicking on the Source Call No. (right beside the batch no. at the foot of the individual search result page). Your second link duly took me to that same place, and enabled me to cross-check it against the IGI result page for Robert Davies (Derwen 30.06.1832). Which did fortunately confirm my assumption that the entry was extracted from Derwen BTs, via the old filming work done in the early 1950s. Quite why someone decided to entitle the IGI batch derived from that film differently, as "Derwen by Corwen", remains obscure; but it becomes a non-issue now the batch's link to the Derwen BT film is clearly established.
I wish I could fill you in better about the new LDS filming project on Welsh PRs. All I know is what a chap told me two years ago, last time I managed to get to Ruthin RO. He had a hi-end digital filming rig set up in the old main reading room and was filming the original of a PR. He told me he was doing it p.p. the LDS and that peace had broken out between them and the C in W, on the basis that individual parish incumbents retained a veto-of-conscience, but (subject to that) the default position of the RCB in Cardiff was now broadly permissive. I have not sought to find corroboration of that from elsewhere -- so it could easily be wide of the mark. But I wait in hopes of hearing about a press launch! (And, as I wrote above, that could already have happened for all I know.)
So, back to the substance (from Lorrae's standpoint):
Hi JL :)
...
IGI brings up no useful hits for Robert 1831-3 in Merion., but four candidates in Denbighs. On looking at the one cited by Lorrae, I more than ha' me doots: a Wesleyan baptism at Ruthin, with mother's maiden name showing as Philips.
But . . . there is another bapt., on 30 June 1832, for parents listed as Thomas Davies and Jane, at "Derwen by Corwen"; batch is C090161. That did catch my eye, bearing in mind last para of my Reply 16. ... Unfortunately a search for others with the same parents turns up little else there; but of course people did swap preferred christening venues quite often in that period. ...
... What think you?
Lorrae, I do apologise if I have sown any confusion!
Ref.
I did see the record for THOMAS DAVIES AND JANE PHILLIPS on LDS so assumed that they were Roberts parents as I couldnt find anything else. ...
As you correctly concluded, for my part -- and it will be interesting to hear whether JL thinks any different -- I was sceptical about that IGI entry being the right one, once I realised it must be the one you meant. Against it already was the fact that it appeared in the register of a chapel at Ruthin (though that was certainly not decisive, given the size of early Wesleyan circuits). Then the implied 1841 census age for this child would be seven rather than the actual nine (one year off usually seems OK to me -- but with a child I get a bit more doubtful when the gap rises to two years). There seem to be none of the other known Davies siblings in the batch. And Philips is a rare-ish name in the Llandderfel area.
As both JL and I have commented, IGI coverage in N. Wales is generally very thin (because of the filming restrictions deriving from theological objections to what was perceived as "baptising the dead"), so the absence of any other IGI options carries little probative value.
None of which means that the Ruthin entry is the wrong one, just that my bet would be against it without more evidence. And, as you know, for now my eye has been caught by the possibility at Derwen. Plus who knows what Gwyddelwern PR or the other non-conformist registers may hold inside their covers.
Ref.
I find it confusing as on the censuse Robert born different places
Yes, he was certainly pretty erratic about what he told the enumerators. But my guess all along was Gwyddelwern, and as JL noted in bold print, he did revert to that in old age (1901).
Ref.
I have sent for Thomases death cert by so hopefully that will shed a bit of light on my tree.
Hope you were able to obtain a decent steer from the registrar at Ruthin about the right entry for Thomas (curious to know how much info he/she vouchsafed over the phone about the chosen entry). :)
Rol
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Hi Rol and JL
Rol, I sent for the death cert for Thomas Davies by letter as I work all day and didnt have access to a phone.
I gave them all the reference numbers that Rol gave me and today I recieve a cert. This is the only one out of the ref numbers that corresponded to the ages I gave them. It reads
Thomas Davies found dead on the 9th January 1847 at Melin y Wig in the parish of Gweddelwern
aged 67 occ Labourer. cause of death Interference to cold.
I think that this is my Thomas all though his occ from Miller to Labourer is a bit confusing.
Hopefully I am a bit further on than I was with the exceptional help from you and JL ;D ;D which is very much appreciated :) :) :)
Lorrae
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I've just found another Thomas Davies of the same age in Gwyddelwern on the 1841. This one is an ag. lab:
HO107/1428/15/11/13
So it could well be the one whose death cert you have.
Who was the informant on the cert?
JL
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Jumping the gun,I was.
He's still there on the 1851 so the death cert could be correct!
I'm puzzled by the miller to labourer though
JL
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Hello Lorrae
What does the death certificate for Thomas DAVIES in 1847 say about who reported the death?
In 1851 there is this entry Mill, Bodorlas, Merioneth
HO107/2509/241/7
Magdalen PRICE, head, widow, age 46, Miller born Llanfor Me
Hugh PRICE, 15, miller's son, born Corwen
Grace PRICE, 18, miller's dau, born Corwen
Robert PRICE, 9, miller's son, born Corwen
Robert DAVIES, 20, occ Miller, servant, born Gwyddelwern
John ROBERTS, 15, Mill carrier, servant, born Corwen
Richard WYNNE, 13, Mill carrier, servant, Llansanffraid
David DAVIES, 23 occ Miller, visitor, born Gwyddelwern
Ref the baptism of Robert DAVIES June 1833 at the Mill Wesleyan Chapel Ruthin indicates that he was the son of Thomas DAVIES but Thomas is identified as a Shoemaker on the Blackwell Index CD from the Clwyd FHS.
Heather
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Well done, Heather -- that is fantastic new info! :) It seems to account pretty securely for the two boys who have until now been AWOL in 1851. And it is great to have that clarification from the Blackwell Index about the Wesleyan baptism at Ruthin. (Makes me that much keener for a lookup in the Derwen PR/BTs.)
I feel tolerably confident that the 1847 death cert. relates to the right Thomas. It does match the age of 60 shown for him in the 1841 census entry. Seeing him there next to a wife with the age "35" originally left me with the usual assumption that their ages had been rounded down in accordance with the normal 1841 rules. But when one goes back to look at that census page more closely it becomes apparent that the enumerator was one of those heroes who mostly ignored the rules and entered people's actual ages. (Good man! ;)) Funnily enough though, Jane's "35" does indeed seem to have been rounded down from the true 39, to judge by her entry as a widow in 1851 (Reply 15).
The occupation "labourer" sets one theory-building. One scenario that I quite like for now, in the absence of anything more attractive, is the possibility that the mill was temporarily de-commissioned during the latter part of Thomas Davies's period as tenant -- conceivably due to pressure of competition or the need to renew machinery and equipment at a cost that the owner decided he could not immediately afford/justify. We know that Thomas was labelled as a miller in 1841. Yet his apparent successor in occupation at "Llwyn Melyn" (William Davies b. Gwyddelwern ca. 1806-07) was described in 1851 as "Farm Labourer", pretty much like Thomas himself on his death certificate. By 1861 "Melyn Llwyn" was occupied once more by a tenant described as "Miller" (Humphrey Humphreys b. Derwen 1829-30), and that remained the case in 1871 (Edward Davies b. Derwen ca. 1831-32 [a DoB which presumably disbars him from being Thomas's son Edward, b.1835-36 per the 1841 census?]).
I am rather intrigued by the possible relevance of this little item in the N. Wales Chronicle of Tuesday, 19 January 1847:
RUTHIN.-- A pensioner, named Thomas Davies, met his death last week, under the following circumstances. It appeared that he had been at Ruthin, to receive his pension, and afterwards proceeded to Efnuchtyd [sic -- recte Efenechtyd] to see a relative, and started from thence for Clawdd Newydd. By some mischance he missed his way, and was found next day quite dead in a ditch.
If this was the TD whom we are pursuing, at least four follow-on questions arise:
1. Was there an inquest and does any useful record of it survive?
2. Was there a report in one of the other papers describing the incident with other details but failing to name the dead man? (No time to look at the moment.)
3. There must be a fair chance, at this date, that "pensioner" meant Chelsea or Greenwich Hospital out-pensioner. Has anyone access to the relevant sources (FindMyPast)? If we hit lucky there, whole new prospects would open up. Worth a shot (so to speak), anyway.
4. Who were his "relatives" at Efenechtyd?
May be a complete red herring, but . . .
Rol
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Hi Again
I'm still not convinced of this death and I'd like to see who the informant was before accepting it:
Who was the informant on the cert?
I'd also be interested in the age shown on the death cert. This might help with an identification of a baptism record.
The Chelsea pensioner details should be in the Nat Archives series which is available to check online. I found a few of my ancestors that way. Unfortunately, Thomas Davies is not all that rare a name and from the 6 pages that came up for me, there are a few b. Denbighshire. Lorrae will have to look through the promising ones and see if any look likely:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=3
Not sure about the link.
Link doesn't work - I think they might be cookie related - I searched the catalogue from 1790-1850 for a Thomas Davies in WO97
Added - see below - I've found two possibles
I'm still trying to puzzle out the occupation given for Jane Davies on the 1851.
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=370538.0;id=215939;image)
The index has it as 'Nitting' but I'm not convinced .
Also, maybe we should try to find a marriage for Thomas and Jane? The death cert, itself won't give us much of a clue to his parentage, whereas the marriage might have something - a witness maybe.
The inquest info is usually non-extant, in my experience and all you get is from newspaper reports. I do have access to the old newspapers but am busy for most of the day. I'll try later on to see if there's anything else..
Maybe search Efenechtyd on the 1841/1851 to see if a poss relative can be identified. Added - there are a few possibles
Goodness, Rol, my posts are starting to get as long as yours ;D
JL
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I've just checked my Blackwell. The Robert Davies that Heather checked up on was b. 11 June 1833, so the age looks a bit out, although mother is Jane. . The address is Clwyd Street, which implies that they lived Ruthin..
The 1835 and 1844 Trade Directories list a Thomas Davies, Clwyd Street (boot and shoe maker) so I think we can reject this baptism.
For info : there;'s also a Thomas Davies, butcher, in Mwrog Street(Prior Street in 1844) and a Thos. Davies, earthenware dealer, in Clwyd Street in 1844
I don't have the full North Wales Trade Directories (which can be purchased from Clwyd FHS) and I'm not fond of the online site - http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/
It might be worth checking in those.
JL
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Hi Again
Just an update on the Chelsea pensioners listings.
There are just two possibles that I can see:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bt2/
and
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bt3/
I've not so far checked for variations of Thomas
JL
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Agree with those thoughts, JL. Wonder what odds you would give on the man-in-a-ditch story being about the death cert. fellow. Anyway, some lines of enquiry to be pursued. Hope Lorrae will find useful informant info on the cert. -- that would firm up the ID considerably.
... I'd also be interested in the age shown on the death cert. ...
We have "67", per Lorrae's Reply 32. :)
Goodness, Rol, my posts are starting to get as long as yours ;D
;D ;D You're just trying to bestir my competitive instincts, JL! Afraid I have to be away from the computer for the rest of the day, but meanwhile I shall put up a good door-stopper as an earnest of my desire to raise my game and graze the 5,500 character limit.
Here are a couple of references that support the notion that those living at Llwyn y Brain (and Bryn Saith Marchog more generally), although strictly speaking parishioners of Gwyddelwern, often felt more closely connected with the church and parish of Derwen. Both sources have the additional merit of providing some intriguing "local colour" -- describing folk traditions and stories that verge on the "gothick".
First, there is Edward Edwards (1783-1868), who lived at Llwyn y Brain and so was a near neighbour to Llwyn Mill. He was an ancestor of Hafina Clwyd Coppack's, and her research has identified him as a well-known local purveyor of folk remedies and magic spells, who came to be known as yr Hen Ddewin -- the Old Wizard of Llwyn y Brain. He was buried at Derwen church and was married to an Ann Dafis (Davies) of of Ty Ucha, Derwen. See sub-paras 13 and 14 in this RootsWeb post (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/clwyd/2005-03/1110501071).
Second, Owen's Old Stone Crosses of the Vale of Clwyd (1886) tells us about a certain devotee of a local custom that featured skulls and dead sheep, who was returning "down the road from Derwen to Melin-y-Llwyn" and chanced upon a spectre carrying "a large tree" -- which it portered onwards to the bridge and hurled into the river (viz. just by the inlet to the mill race). The author forebears to speculate on the purpose of this manoeuvre -- e.g. whether back then the use of spectral millrace-blocking was a notorious anti-competitive practice often deployed against each other by rival Clwydian millers. ;)
MAY EVE AND MAY DAY CUSTOMS.
May Eve was, within the memory of the living, a busy night, for during the small hours after midnight young men were actively employed in letting the fair sex know the extent of their affection for them. If a young lady had jilted or discountenanced a suitor, then he had his revenge by fixing Penglogau, or skull bones, or dead sheep, to the house door of the lady who had rejected his advances; on the other hand the accepted happy swain dressed his sweetheart's door with flowers. Very anxiously did the fair await the dawn of morning, and happy were they if on opening the door they were greeted by a lover's nosegay, but very dejected and irate were they if dangling bones or a man of straw met their eye. This custom was common in most parts of North Wales.
Young men engaged in the uncongenial work of hanging skull bones at young ladies' doors were occasionally punished for their ungallant action by qualms of conscience, and their over-wrought imaginations conjured up phantoms which greatly disturbed their minds, and terribly frightened them.
It is by such a supposition as the preceding that the following tale, told me by the Rev. John Williams, is to be accounted for. Mr. Williams states that he knew a respectable yeoman who told him that he and a companion were once going down the road from Derwen to Melin-y-Llwyn, having been out on May Eve fixing Penglogau at Derwen, when the yeoman observed a man descending the hill before them, carrying on his shoulder a large tree in full foliage, which he threw over the bridge with a great splash into the river Clwyd. His companion did not see the apparition, which immediately vanished; but he heard the splash. But this was not to be wondered at, for it is said that only those born under certain planets can see spirits, whilst noises which they make are audible to ordinary mortals.
Quoted from pp.192-93 of:
Old Stone Crosses
of the
Vale of Clwyd and Neighbouring Parishes,
Together with some account of the
Ancient Manners and Customs and Legendary Lore
connected with the parishes.
(The book can be read online via the Internet Archive site here (http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924028087108).)
Rol
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Missed the age at death of Thomas - it got buried :-X
I've read through a few of the newspapers around the dates of death and, so far, only the entry that you found seems relevant. It does look possible. I'll look at more later but reading newspaper s on screen, even with Gale's largest print option, does for ones eyes. I'm not sure that I can read the book ref as well :'( I think real books are so much nicer and don't strain the eyes.
I'd forgot about Hafina's pobl pieces. I'll dig out my Hel Achau journals and browse the competition's site.
I think the best thing now is for Lorrae to try to obtain a birth cert for Isaac and/or Mary (aged 2 and 1, resp. on the 1841). Isaac should be easier and you have already found some possible refs. We could then , at least, know Jane's maiden name.
I've found a possible for David, b.c. 1828 at Haffotty Fawr, married to Ellen/Elleanor Lloyd (RG9/4308/7/8 in 1861)and son in law to a John Lloyd. He remains there as farmer in later censuse. I'm not sure of this but it's a maybe.
Incidentally, in addition to one of my Jones lines originating in Gwyddelwern, my Burgess maiden great x3 aunts had their final farm at Craig Lelo
JL
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Hi JL, Rol ,Heather
Well I wonder if that Thomas that was found in a ditch was mine. :'( :'(
THe death cert states that he was found dead , his age on the cert is 67 yrs and he died of Intolerance to cold, the informant on the cert was F Williams CORONER , Denbigh the death was registered on the 29th March 1847.
Lorrae
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I think we need to look at the online newspapers around the March date, Lorrae.
Back in a while - get the tissues handy :'(
JL
Added - if my eyes go, that nice Rol might look when he's back :)
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Probably like others, and 'course being very nice ;), I have now had a supplementary rummage in the 19th c. newspaper database for info about Thomas Davies's death, extending the search onwards to mid-April 1847; but the net came up empty.
It strikes me as highly unlikely that the inquest would have been deferred until March, absent very unusual/suspicious circumstances. And if such circumstances had existed, we can be reasonably confident that they would have attracted the press's attention back to the matter. So my best guess is that the inquest happened pretty promptly in the usual way, and the report on 19 January reflected the evidence already given before the coroner. If that hypothesis is correct, it remains odd that the Chronicle failed to mention the source for its brief para. And it is also odd that the registration of the death was so long deferred -- was the coroner just too busy with his private practice to keep up-to-date with his county paperwork?
If anyone wanted to try and pursue the matter, there could be surviving records in the coroner's law firm's archive (at Ruthin RO?). There may also be some very basic bare facts (at least the date of the inquest) in the Assize records (TNA?); or maybe post-1830 that material went in with Quarter Sessions (Ruthin RO). There certainly would have been something of that sort before Wales came into the Assize system in 1830, because I know that Bryn Ellis of Clwyd FHS and the Montgom. FHS has done a lot of good work using the old Great Sessions rolls at the NLW to extract info from the coroners' expense claims, which always specified brief details about each inquest.
JL, those TNA catalogue refs to Chelsea pensioners look interesting. I think that when you tested the initial link (the one you diagnosed as defective) you might just have found that it would have worked second time round, i.e. if you had waited a couple of seconds and then re-clicked. I have no cookie-blocks in place, but still find that such PROCAT links often fail first time yet nearly always work on second click (first go gets halted at their search screen, second one drills right on down to the individual piece number).
Anyway, try this one too (WO97/522/156), as a test (workings shown):
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-3943457
I am quite keen on him, due to his being born at Derwen; but of course he could be entirely the wrong age. He was discharged aged 44, but I cannot deduce the year in which that occurred. Maybe you know how to tell?
The real solution would be to access his papers online via FindMyPast's much trumpeted WO97 collection. Their website now boldly states
The Chelsea Pensioners Record Series WO97 is now complete and includes 1,041,092 records. Look out for the WO96 Militia Records, coming soon ...
I am not a subscriber of theirs, but searching is free . . . and, of course, I can find neither hide nor hair of the WO97/522/156 man in FindMyPast's index. Plus no obvious way to call up his file using his TNA ref.; hope someone else knows how.
Rol
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Hi Rol
As I read the records, the age corresponds to the last year stated - well, it did with the three that I acquired. I had to pay £10 for each set of records a few years back.
This would imply that he was 44 in 1828 or so, so born circa 1784. However, looking at the full listings, the end date on FindMyPast seems to be just a terminator for the record series so ::) ::) ::)
The WO97 series are hidden in the British Army Service Records 1760-1913. I did a wide search but couldn't see our particular Thomas there. They do list birth place, Regiment and year of discharge where stated and no one came up who matched the Derwen, 35 Foot Thomas Davies.
I then looked at the Davies (variations) listed under Sussex Regiment (35th Foot). These included a James, Charles, George and William John but no Thomas
JL
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Rol
I've just realised that you must have read my unedited post as I did put a couple of links up that do work. I've posted this separately to maybe suggest that it's best to read the message posted here rather than via the e-mail link.
JL
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I've just tried one of my ancestors whose info I remember. He's not coming up on the FindMyPast series, so the early records do not appear to be complete.
JL
Added - another one has come up though - very strange!
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Found someone in 35th R of F. A different ref no. to yours. This one is WO97/522/174. I think it is the same one though as his service record corresponds:
Denbighshire Militia 1792-1799
4th Foot 1799 - 1802
Sussex Militia 1800-1802
35th Foot 1807 - 1815 (age 37 when attested)
He was a Cordwainer (maybe the shoemaker from Clwyd Street!) and 5ft 5 ins.
Parish of birth - Derwin in or near the town of Reathen
I'll check on the two that I found now :)
JL
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1.
Born - Ruthien
? 1st or 81st ? Foot 1801 -1802
34th Foot 1802 - 1815 or 17 (unclear) - 35 when discharged
Also a cordwainer. 5 ft 8 ins
2.
Born - Denbigh
4th Foot 1799 -1815 - 37 when discharged
A Taylor(sic) . 5 ft 8 3/4 ins
Somehow, I don't feel that any of these three match Lorrae's ancestor.
JL
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Hi JL (and all others still interested),
Excellent news that you have been in to look at the underlying file images from the FindMyPast digitisation project (assume you have a sub, o/wise a bit pricey to go exploring).
Two-part response:
1. DRY ANALYSIS (Warning: may induce coma ;))
I think, as you do, that the file numbered WO97/522/174 (abstracted in your Reply 48) very likely does relate to the same Derwen man who caught my eye (Reply 44, penultimate full para: WO97/522/156) -- otherwise the degree of coincidence involved would seem highly implausible. The related FindMyPast index listing for WO97/522/174 is presumably the one that shows the soldier's place of birth as "Reathen, Denbighshire", with "Derwin" being dropped for lack of space; while TNA's schedulers opted for the Derwin element instead, and also elected to normalise the spelling.
Some strange mismatches do come to light when one compares TNA's piece descriptions with the data that emerges from the FindMyPast open-access indexes. In the case of our WO97/522/174 example, the scene may well have been befogged by some mis-scheduling at TNA's end. If you go here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-3943475&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=WO97%2F522%2F174) (may require two clicks to penetrate the search screen), you will be surprised to see that TNA's listing ascribes the Derwin/Reathen piece no. WO97/522/174 to one William Dines, b. Linham, Kent, discharged to pension aged 42 (?in 1848) -- who also served in the 35th of Foot.
FindMyPast'S own index does have an entry for a William Dines (b. Kent 1806) who served with the 35th -- so if you have a moment to look, it would be interesting to know what piece no. is written on the linked images of his papers (and indeed whether those images do relate to Dines). Best theory for now is that the Dines of Linham and Davies of Derwin/Reathen folders were adjacent in the bundle for the 35th, and their numbers became reversed in TNA's index. But there may be more behind the mismatch than meets the eye. Could TD of Derwin/Reathen have had two surviving files, due to his period out of both the regulars and the militia between his (presumed) Peace of Amiens demobilisation in 1802 and his return to the colours in 1807?
As background I have belatedly gone back to remind myself of TNA's basic description of the WO 97 class. This bit is of particular relevance:
For the period 1760-1854 (WO 97/1-1271) a name index has been produced in a joint project by the Friends of The National Archives and the Army Museums Ogilby Trust. ... Each item record relates to an individual soldier and records their name, any alias names, their place and county of birth (as recorded in the document and thus often mispelt), their regiment(s) and their age on discharge. Covering dates given for these records give the soldier's year of enlistment to year of discharge unless otherwise stated.
So Bold Passage 1 tells us that the indexing was done by volunteers (better than many paid-for outsourcing projects -- but probably not as even in quality as most professional archivists' work). And Bold Passage 2 does explicitly confirm what we both originally thought, but I at least had begun seriously to doubt -- viz. that in TNA's index the later of the two "covering dates" should equate to the year of discharge to pension, and (as you wrote in Reply 45) the ages shown should also relate to that same year.
My supposition is that FindMyPast's indexers were rather too prone to claiming that the ages on the attestation and/or discharge forms were too hard to read, with the result that large numbers of soldiers are now shown with a "?" in the "Date of Birth" column; and, again as you observed in Reply 45, FindMyPast have not compensated for the resulting blanks by transferring across the "covering dates" for individual items that were used in TNA's own listing project -- merely showing the start-to-end-date range applicable to the whole record series.
As I mentioned yesterday, it is a great pity that there is no way to call up papers from FindMyPast's image files by using the master piece numbers allocated by TNA.
Anyway ........ where are we left for now? Next post.
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2. IMPLICATIONS
Thoughts on our current three candidate soldier-boys:
(a) TD born Derwin/Reathen -- WO97/522/174 (JL Reply 48)
As discussed in the foregoing post, we seem to be agreed that this must be the man who is listed as b. Derwen in TNA's catalogue with a different ref. I note that the attestation aged 37 relates to when he signed up again in 1807, after a period out of the army (and take it that no DoB info survives from his first attestation or his 1815 discharge papers).
Obviously that age of 37 gives us a rough DoB of 1770, a full decade too early for him to be the future miller. But because of that nice Derwen connection I do hate having to count him out completely; I suppose that my last graspable straw would be the chance that "37" was at some point misheard/miscopied for "27" -- which, of course, would land him right on the miller's estimated birth year.
The occupation "cordwainer" in 1807(?) is clearly less than ideal. But he would not be the first chap to change career after a long period away in the wars -- and Jane could always turn out to have been a miller's pretty daughter.*
(b) TD born Ruthien -- WO97/517/25 (JL Reply 49, Candidate 1)
Another cordwainer.
DoB implied by his age 37 at discharge:
-- if in 1815, 1777-78;
-- if in 1817, 1779-80.
So if discharged 1817, a good fit with the future miller.
You evidently feel the discharge date could go either way, per the image. Presumably the volunteer cataloguers for TNA's version were working from the originals, perhaps with benefit of UV light, so it is probably worth noting that they went for a "covering date" span ending in 1817.
(c) TD born Denbigh -- WO97/261/15 (JL Reply 49, Candidate 2)
A "taylor".
DoB implied by his age 37 at discharge: 1777-78.
Age and place a bit adrift -- but not really out of range.
So ................ None of them truly excludable, but no "clunk-click" fit emerges. If forced to bet, for now I am about 80% sold on the man-in-a-ditch being the right fellow -- died of exposure, inquest, matching name, area and date. Big coincidence if it is not him.
Assuming it is, I come out about 70% confident that the unqualified word pensioner in the paper was intended to mean Chelsea or Greenwich pensioner: what sensible rival meanings would be conveyed to a reader at that date? (Someone be devil's advocate!)
But between the three candidate soldiers, it is not easy at all. I would put it as most probably (a) or (b), with (b) ahead -- on the basis of age-match alone. But then there remains Greenwich . . .
To prove more, my first-thought next step would be pension payment records at TNA, especially to discover how long the pensions remained in payment. But not had time to go prowling on the website to see whether any suitable documents survive. Fingers crossed someone has alternative/better tactics to propose.
Rol
* Valentine's Day afterthought: And if the pair happen to have met in 1823 (which might not be much adrift from the reality), it would indeed have been the perfect life-imitates-art year in which to woo a schöne Müllerin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_sch%C3%B6ne_M%C3%BCllerin). :) The sad endings come a bit too close for comfort, although -- if strictly compared -- life in Gwyddelwern probably yielded some much happier times in the middle.
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Hi JL / Rol
Just thought I would update you as to where I am at present.
I went on North wales BMD site in search of Isaac Davies, Robert Davies's brother to try an ascertain parentage.I sent off a couple of forms to Ruthin Register Office and got a reply today.
The two I had sent for were no goers, but they kindly sent a form back stating there is a Thomas Davies and Jane Jones son Isaac born 1840 at Llanhaeadr yng Nghinmeirch, it also says that Thomas was a farmer and not a miller as stated on the 1841 census.They also said they could not find a Thomas Davies occ Miller.
What are the possibilities of this Thomas being mine who knows and then on the other hand am wondering whether to purchase the cert ??? ??? ???
I think I am starting to lose the plot now and am wondering if Thomas was a Farmer/Miller /Labourer and also did he fall a ditch or am I on a long slippery slope down the wrong road ::) ::) ::).
oh well hey ho off we go a searchin again ;D ;D
Lorrae
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Hmm. Bit of thought needed about that! Wonder if there is an obvious local marriage to be found . . . But I doubt it quite means "back to the drawing board".
Anyway, as you posted I was just about to dispatch the following updated info about "the Soldier's Tale", so here goes.
To prove more, my first-thought next step would be pension payment records at TNA, especially to discover how long the pensions remained in payment. But not had time to go prowling on the website to see whether any suitable documents survive. ...
Now had a quick look at TNA's basic online guide to soldiers' discharge and pension records (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-discharge-and-pension-records.htm).
Per Section 4.6: "Out-pensions: payment registers in the UK ...
Before 1842 pensions were paid by officials locally ... and no records seem to survive. In 1842 pensions staff officers were appointed, who made monthly returns to the War Office. They recorded who had moved into or out of the district, whose pensions had ceased, and who had died. If you know the place where an ex-soldier died (for example, from a death certificate) or was living (for example, from a census return), it may be well worthwhile using these registers. ... The registers, in WO 22, are arranged by payment district or country, and give the pensioner's name, regiment, rate of pension, date of admission to pension, rank and the district to which or from which he had moved. ... "
Alternatively, per Section 6, there are: "Regimental registers of admissions to pension ...
These registers (in WO 120) are in several series, covering c.1715-1857, with deaths noted up to 1877. There is a name index for 1806-1836 only ... "
The WO22 payment registers sound like a promising source, and not too difficult to search. Lucky that they began just in time to create returns for Ruthin in Jan/Feb 1847. But as they remain undigitised, checking them would require a special trip to Kew -- unless some kind person offers to piggyback a lookup onto an already-scheduled visit.
The WO120s could form a safety-net, but would require inspection of each candidate's own regimental volume for the year of his admission to pension.
Rol
ADDED:
This Sub-Series listing (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=Wales&txtfirstdate=&txtlastdate=&txtrestriction=WO22&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=41&image1.y=7&image1=GO) [access may require 2nd click] in TNA's catalogue indicates that the payment register needed is probably WO22/116, covering returns made from payment stations in "East Wales District" 1842-52 -- always assuming that Ruthin was not grouped under a district named after an English border town, e.g. Chester District (whose own register for the right period has the piece no. WO/22/19).
There is some interesting supplementary material about the WO22 class to be found in TNA's Your Archives (http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=WO_22) section, together with an incomplete list of districts and payment stations (unfortunately omitting Wales). It contains the excellent news that Greenwich Hospital also used the same network of districts and registers to pay naval pensions; so a search in WO22 would also cover the alternative contingency that Thomas Davies was actually an RN pensioner.
This Rootschat thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,132674.0.html) of Feb. 2006 provides an example of the really useful information that can be found in these records.
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... Ruthin Register Office ... kindly sent a form back stating there is a Thomas Davies and Jane Jones son Isaac born 1840 at Llanhaeadr yng Nghinmeirch, it also says that Thomas was a farmer and not a miller as stated on the 1841 census. ...
What are the possibilities of this Thomas being mine who knows and then on the other hand am wondering whether to purchase the cert ??? ??? ???
Having looked at things a bit further, I'd say "No, don't bother." :) I think it is just another of those coincidences sent to try us all.
Reason is that this other Isaac appears in his own 1841 census entry at Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch, in a household headed by Thomas Davies, 50, and Jane Davies, 35. They lived at a farm called Bryn y Gwynt Isaf in the township of Segroit. (See HO107/1402/12 fo.9r&v pp.10-11.) They are still there in 1851, though by then Jane was a widow and poor Isaac had been pushed out to work for the next-door neighbours.
All of which said, it is certainly disappointing that we are little further forward with the real Isaac's birth cert. (For the record, could you post the dates and refs. of the two blanks you drew?) Hope someone else gets inspired with a new thought about how to track down the missing entry. To me it really is beginning to look as though the parents may have been civil registration "slackers" after all. Which would of course make his baptism the only surviving trace of his arrival in the world, just as it would have been pre-1837.
Rol
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Scrolling back a bit . . .
I'm still trying to puzzle out the occupation given for Jane Davies on the 1851.
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=370538.0;id=215939;image)
The index has it as 'Nitting' but I'm not convinced . ...
I agree it does look a bit odd, but the enumerator appears to use the same way of forming his initial capital Ns elsewhere in the census book. See, e.g., Nephew on p.7 (three lines from bottom). It is pretty hard to work out a viable alternative reading. It does not look much like his H, as one can see from the many examples of the word Head (and of course "hitting" would make nonsense anyway).
If one taps "nitting" into Google there do seem to be many examples of the "K" of Knitting being dropped, whether through ignorance or as a space/time-saver.
So for now I would stick with "nitting" -- though only faute de mieux. Woollen stocking knitting was, of course, a big cottage industry in N. Wales for much of the 19th c.
Rol
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Hi Rol
Thanx for that, its very infuriating when you think you found someone and ends u a stone wall ::) ::).
The North Wales BMD refs are Denbighshire south (Ruthin) DNB/01/65 1840 and Elidan/01/26 1839 that one belongs to a Thomas Davies and a Elizabeth Morris.
I agree it dissapointing at not being able to find Isaac they certainly havent made it easy ;D ;D
Lorrae
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Thanks for putting up those N Wales BMD refs, Lorrae. Will help save anyone else from duplicating searches you have already made.
I am trespassing a little onto your request-prerogatives here; but pending a WO 22 lookup result -- and in response to this earlier kind offer from JL
Hi you two - Ms heavy lifter here ;D
Could one of you summarise what is needed, please, as I might be able to twist someone's arm/ask nicely for some post-1812 lookups.
-- I hope that you agree that it would offer a good chance of progress if someone with access to the microfilms (held at Ruthin, Hawarden and Aberystwyth) were able to check out Gwyddelwern and Derwen PRs for us, in the hope of finding the baptisms of Thomas and Jane Davies's children between the years 1825 and 1845 (and especially your Robert's ca. 1832).
* * *
I have had a spare library half-hour to dip into a couple of sources myself. No finds, but still best to record the results.
1. Meirionnydd Marriage Index 1813-37 -- fiches produced by Gwynedd FHS, listing marriages parish by parish:
Only had time to look at the sections for Gwyddelwern and Llandderfel. No pre-1830 marriages between a Thomas Davies and a bride forenamed Jane.
Of course the wedding could have occurred in another Merionethshire parish; but those two had seemed the most likely. So drawing a blank there perhaps strengthens the odds in favour of a Denbighshire wedding.
2. Derwen PR to 1812 (CFHS transcript):
Obviously too early for the children or marriage of Thomas Davies the future Llwyn y Brain miller. But I thought it worth checking the notion that the occupants of the mill might often have used Derwen church in preference to Gwyddelwern. Found these four examples in the period 1800-12 (reverse date order):
1811 BUR John Jones, Melin Llwyn y Brain, Gwyddelwern, 22 March
1810 BAPT Margt. da. John Jones & Eliz., Melin Llwyn, Gwyddelwern, 14 May
1809 BAPT Jane da. Hugh Edwards & Jane, Melin Llwyn y Brain, 22 July
1801 BUR Jane wife of John Humphreys, Melin Llwyn y Brain, 15 April
3. Baptism of Thomas Davies, 1780 ± 3 years:
No candidate events found in PRs for Derwen or Gwyddelwern (per CFHS transcripts).
Rol
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Hi all you helpful people out there.
I have a major dillema I have just discovered a big booboo in my research :'( :'(
I have my Gt Gt grandfather Robert Davies as marrying a Bella Griffiths at the Parish Church Mold Oct 16 1853. On the cert it states that Roberts father was Thomas Davies (miller) which means he is still alive as it doesnt state desceased . I have a death cert for Thomas dying 1847, I thought that Thomas was Roberts father as stated on the 1841 census, if that is so then the marriage cert I have is not for my Robert or the death cert I have is not for Roberts father ??? ??? ???
Furthermore aon going through my records I came across some communication I had had with someone researching Roberts son Richard and they had Thomas Davies (1841 census )as Roberts grandfather.
I am totally lost and confused after spending a long time trying to find Roberts parents.
Can anyone out there give me any guidance as to how to solve this problem
Thanx Lorrae