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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: maxitup1966 on Wednesday 02 February 11 15:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone
One month into compiling my family tree and I've hit an obstacle, actually two ... both my great-grandfathers on my fathers side !!
One of them is John Thomas Richardson who was born about 1881 in Hastings Old Town (I think) and was a fisherman. I can't seem to find him nor any parents/siblings on the 1901 census ??
I know he married in Rye on 18 September 1904 to Emma Bowra ... and that's it ??
Tracing my other great-grandfather is very confusing !!
I know that Frederick George Pepper was born in Hastings Old Town in October 1885 and married Eliza Jane Martin in July 1908. His name is clearly written on my grandfathers birth certificate dated 1911.
On my grandfathers marriage certificate it says his father is George Henry Pepper ... what ???
I can't find anything for him either so do I have 5 great-grandfathers ... haha !!
I'm told that two great-grandfathers are buried at Hastings Cemetery so I just need to find out where exactly.
Any help is greatly appreciated or simply point me in a better direction cos it feels like I'm heading into a force 9 gale at the moment !!
Cheers Dave
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First - JT Richardson - have you got his fathers name and occupation from his marraige cert?
And also his age and place of birth from 1911 census?
With these details there is a better chance of finding the right person in earlier censuses before his marriage.
Of course he may have been out fisihing in 1901 .......
re FG Pepper - I'll have a look on 1891 census to see if he can be spotted ...
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Cant see him quickly.
But his birth is on FreeBMD:
Oct/Nov/Dec 1885
Hastings 2b 29
Frederick George Pepper
his birth cert would give both parents names which might help
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Could this be him in 1901
RG 13/864/37/29
4 Oxford Terrace Hastings
James Barnes head 38 carter for coal dealer Brede Sussex
Fanny Barnes wife 47 Battle
Joseph Pepper step son 20 Fisherman Hastings
Charles Pepper step son 17 " "
George Pepper step son 15 errand boy for flower selller Hastings
Fanny Pepper step dau 12 Hastings
Willie Larkin step son 8 Hastings
Nellie Larkin step dau 5 Hastings
Jan
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Brilliant find, Jan
The family (incl Frederick ) are under Larkin in 1891
RG12 759 63 6
so Fanny must have been married 3x
first Pepper, then Larkin, then Barnes
George Larkin 41 boat builder bn Hastings
Fanny 37 bn BAttle
mary 17
James 12
Joseph 10
Charles 7
Frederick 5
Francis 2
Stephen 3 mths children all bn Hasitngs
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Could this be him in 1901
RG 13/864/37/29
4 Oxford Terrace Hastings
James Barnes head 38 carter for coal dealer Brede Sussex
Fanny Barnes wife 47 Battle
Joseph Pepper step son 20 Fisherman Hastings
Charles Pepper step son 17 " "
George Pepper step son 15 errand boy for flower selller Hastings
Fanny Pepper step dau 12 Hastings
Willie Larkin step son 8 Hastings
Nellie Larkin step dau 5 Hastings
Jan
I've just been looking at this info, wondering if George is in fact Frederick George or George Henry.
I think its the same Joseph Pepper that was killed in the Swan Inn on Sunday 23 May 1943 by a bomb dropped by the German Luftwaffe ... not that it's any help to my search !
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Age 15 in 1901 - has to be Frederick George
See also 1891 above (called Frederick then)
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Was she not born Fanny Pepper in about 1853 ???
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Now here is a turn up for the books - I am wondering if there ever WAS a dad called George Henry Pepper, or if he was made up for teh marriage cert!
1881
RG11 1023 64 53
3 Wellingon Ct Hastings
Fanny Pepper 27 unm bn battle
Mary J 7
James 2
Joseph 6 weeks
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Marriage
Jan/Feb/Mar 1889
Hastings 2b 58
Fanny Pepper / George Larkings
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Marriage Oct/Nov/Dec 1899
Hastings
2b 105
Fanny Larkings / James Barnes
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Why would that be ???
I know Frederick George was born Oct 1885, married in July 1908, is on my grandfathers birth certificate of 1911 ... then disappears ... lol
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So does that mean 6 children before she married George Larkin? :o :o :o
Maxitup, don't forget the vicar etc only put what they were told on the register, so if your grandfather thought his father's name was George Henry, that's what he would have put. It does look as if Frederick was known as George at least in 1901.
Jan
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So does that mean 6 children before she married George Larkin? :o :o :o
Looks very much like it ....
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It looks as if they are calling themselves George and Jane in 1911, so perhaps he didn't use the name Frederick. There is another son born in 1909, you could always get that certificate to double check.
Jan
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Just to clarify ...
Fanny Pepper born about 1854 in Battle to Stephen & Anne with 2 older sisters.
At some point she moves to Hastings and has 4 children and is unmarried.
She marries George Larkings in 1889 and has 2 children.
She marries again (Blimey !!!) in 1899 to James Barnes.
Her son George is actually Frederick George who is my great-grandfather ... i think ???
He marries in 1908 to Eliza Jane Martin.
They assume the identities of George & Mildred ... sorry George & Jane for god know why !!!
Their first child is born in 1908 (so that's a close call) called George Leonard Pepper
Is that roughly right ... lol :)
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Thats about it - but I think Fanny has 6 children before her first marriage ......
Mary, James, Joseph, Charles, Frederick George (sometimes k/a George) and Francis (sometimes k/a Fanny)
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Hi
I`ll try again,must have had senior momnent & pressed wrong button
George William Pepper,Baptised St Clements,19 Mar 1878,son of Fanny a single woman :o
Are you aware of the book by Steven Peak ?200 years of Hastings Fishing Community.Loads of Pepper`s & a Few Richardson`s mentioned in it
Kind Regards
omega
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Is there anyway of knowing who fathered the 6 Pepper kids ... lol ???
I see Fanny lived alone with Mary J, James and newborn Joseph in the 1881 census ... perhaps he was at sea, is that a possible answer ?
They obviously never married yet they had 3 more children and I can't find her in the 1891 census ???
Horrible to say but is it possible she was a prostitute ??? The fishing quarter of Hastings known as the Old Town was not the nicest of places in Victorian times ... lots of rough fishermen, lots of ale houses and lots of 'female entertainment' ... oh dear who am I :)
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Looks like Omega has found a 7th illegit child of Fanny's
Birth
Jul/Aug/Sep 1877
George William L Pepper
Hastings
Death
Ap/May/Jun 1878
George William L Pepper age 0
Hastings
Perhaps she had this one christened if he was a sickly baby, just in case.
maxitup - you will only be able to find the father of the children if Fanny left any written evidence of who it / they was / were.
So only if he /they is/are named on a birth cert, or a chr record, or a bastardy bond. Otherwise (and most likely) there will be no way of knowing.
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Hate to say this, but you could be looking for 7 different fathers. ::) ::)
Jan
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Hate to say this, but you could be looking for 7 different fathers. ::) ::)
Jan
Oh nooooooooo ... :o Blimey what's my real surname :'(
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Hi Dave
Husbands Greatgrandfather was a Fisherman from Hastings Old Town.
He lived with a woman has husband & wife.I could`nt find a marriage,payed Hastings Register Office £25 for a search,nothing.
After 5 years & lot of money spent i have finally had the Brick Wall knock down .Said Wife had changed her name but before dying must have told the kids her proper name & that was the name her Death was registered in,all proved with certs.They had 12 kids.They still had`nt married under her proper name.Why she did this we will never know.
I should`nt think to harshly of Fanny,life was very tough.
omega
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Your descended from Frederick George?
Apart from one census when he was recorded as Larkin, then he consistantly uses Pepper - his birth, his marriage, and then his descendents.
So, Pepper it is - no issues there. Just when you go back from Fanny there will just be the Pepper line to follow.
Nothing unusual.
When I first started family History many many many years ago, a person who had been doing it forever told me that eventually you are bound to find illegitimacy (usually find that very soon), someone in prison, and a suicide.
And often it is quite hard to see these things in your family, albeit a long time ago.
Yes, 30 or more years or research later I have indeed found lots of illegitimacy, and found a prisoner and a suicide (sadly the same person)
You have just found your first illegitimacy - and wow you have started with large dose!
Dont take it to heart. We will never know the full story of our ancestors. The facts we find out never tell the human story completely.
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I can't find her in the 1891 census
Liz found her - see reply 4, married to George Larkin
Jan
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Doing Husband direct male line i hit a brick wall with his Grandfather.Greatgranmother told lies when she registered him, gave him a fictitous Father,all proved with certs .Our surname should`nt be what it is.
I`ve yet to find a line with no Baseborns in it,including mine .
So your not alone Dave :)
omega
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Fanny,baptised at Battle,2 Jan 1853 daughter of Stephen & Ann
omega
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you may be able to find the father if there was written evidence who was providing for their upkeep, how could fanny go out to work with 6/7 children in tow?
what was her occupation on the census some people did put the more daring prostitute but others covered it up with dressmaker for example if you found a dressmaker with a lot of illegitimate children and a bunch of dressmakers together at that you can be pretty certain but not sure that she was in fact a lady of he night.
sometimes the enumerator would make his own notes
sometimes when the children were christened the vicar / curate would put a note in the margin who the reputed father was.
on the marriage certs you have who were the witnesses these sometimes turn out to be relations.
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In 1881 Fanny said she was a laundress.
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I'm just updating my ancestry.co.uk tree with these latest names so I'd just like to say thanks lizdb, groom, omega and toni ;D
I'll stop there cos I'm crap at speeches and I'm bound to blub ;)
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Sorry to drag you all back and ask more favours, but is there any info on John Thomas Richardson, my other great grandfather ???
He was born about 1881 in Hastings I think.
Again I don't know any brothers/sisters or parents.
He married on the 18 Sept 1904 to Emma Bowra.
They had 8 children that I know of between 1908-1922, my grandmother being one of them.
Thanks Dave :D
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Hi Dave
I could only find on the census a John Richardson born 1876,Hastings
1881,living 53,All Saints St,Hasings
John 31 Fisher Hawker
Susan 35,Wife
John 5
1891,living same address
Both John`s Fish Hawkers
You may need to shake your Piggy Bank & get some Certs :)working back from your Grandmother
omega
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Scrub that John born 1876,his middle name was Stanley
omega
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From my grandmothers birth certificate I would only see her parents names which I know anyway ???
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Have you got his marriage cert? That would hopefully give his father's name and occupation (unless of course he was illegitimate and it is left blank!)
May have other clues (eg if he or Emma had been married before) and their addresses at time of marriage.
Where did the 1881 birth year and place come from? Have you found he and Emma and the eldest children on 1911 census to see when/where he said he was born then?
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I haven't got the marriage cert for John Thomas & Emma.
I only know from ancestry that it was 18 Sept 1904.
I can't remember where I plucked 1881 from ... brain overload I guess ... lol
So would my best route be to purchase their marriage certificate, and if so where from please :)
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1911 census ??? I thought 1901 was the latest :o
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Certificate can be ordered online from www.gro.gov.uk, using the reference number from the marriage index that you can view on Ancesttry or on FreeBMD.
Yes 1911 census available - it is on FindMyPast (a subscription site) or on its own 1911 census site, where you can buy credits to look at entries
http://www.1911census.co.uk
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I see the marriage is under Thomas Richardson - not John
Jul/Aug/Sep 1904
Rye
ref 2b 4
Thomas Richardson / Emma Bowra on the same page
Are you sure this is the right one? Granny's birth cert would confirm.
And you really do need to find the family on 1911, to see how old John/Thomas was and where he was born.
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The info on the 1911 is the same as maxitup has re POB and length of marriage.
I can't see a John Thomas Richardson born Hastings 1881 or a Thomas Richardson in the 1891or 1901. There is a Tom Richardson in the 1901 but his POB is Eastbourne.
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I think I have found his death on ancestry as John T Richardson ... http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=onsdeath93&h=23935733&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t23306143_p1373515172_kpidz0q3d1373515172z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgPLz0q3dpid
I said "I think" cos when I just asked my Dad he said "Yeah it sounds about right" ;)
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That age fits with a birth in 1881. I wonder why we cant find him in the 1891 and 1901 censuses. ???
This could be his birth, the certificate would give parents' names
John Richardson
September quarter 1881
Hastings 2b 21
Jan
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Wonder if this could be him -age and POB fit and the fact father is Thomas
RG 12/1639/124/2
Parkstone, Poole, Dorset
Thomas Richardson 36 coachman, dom servant Great Bardfield Essex
Jane Richardson 41 Helions Bumpstead Essex
JOHN RICHARDSON 9 HASTINGS SUSSEX
Walker W Richardson 7 St Leonards Sussex
Herbert C Richardson 6 St Leonards
Jan
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1881 RG 11/1022/44/38
St Anns Cott, Hastings
Thomas Richardson 26 Coachman dom serv Great Bardfield
Jane Richardson 31 Burnstead Essex
Thos W Richardson 1 Hastings
Looks as if baby Thomas may have died.
Jan
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He did :'( :'( :'(
BIRTH
Thomas William Richardson
Dec quarter 1879
Hastings 2b 19
DEATH
Thomas William Richardson
age 1
Sept quarter 1881
Hastings 2b 11
So it looks as if John was given the second name in memory of his brother.
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I've just ordered the 1904 marriage certificate so hopefully that can shed some light :D
When I started this family digging I was under the impression my family were part of the Hastings Old Town fishing community for the past 300-400 years ... oh to be shot down in flames !!
Great Grandmother Bowras parents come from Sevenoaks.
Great Grandfather Richardsons parents look like they come from Essex.
Great Grandmother Peppers parents come from Battle.
I don't know who one Great Grandfather was !
... and Great Grandmother Martins parents came from Iden !!!
I feel like a gypsy ... lol 8)
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Hopefully the marriage cert will make it clearer.
If Dad was Thomas, a coachamn, then grooms find will be confirmed (though he must have moved back to Sussex from Dorset at some time)
Do post the details on here when you have got the cert.
Meanwhile we will keep looking in 1901.
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1901
RG13 1043 25 2
Bournemouth, Hampshire
John Richardson 19 boarder Stationers Assistant bn Hastings Sussex
This looks like the one that 'groom' found in 1891
PArents Thomas and Jane, and brothers Walter and Herbert have moved back to Essex RG13 1631 24 8.
But is doesnt really look lioke your fisherman who marries in Rye in 1904 ....shame
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Oh bother ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D
Jan
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John Thomas Richardson appears in the 1911 in Hastings, so where is he hiding before that?
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Well, who knows! The marriage cert will help us decide if that one is still in the running or not.
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Is he a fisherman in 1911?
Born Hastings?
Any more clues?
Ah modified to add - thanks for pm .
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OK - just to while away the time whilst we are waiting for the marriage cert, how about a different approach?
There is no birth reg for a John Thomas Richardson around that time. So lets wonder if he was born and brought up iniitially with a different surname.
There are births in 1880/81 in Hastings for:
JT Clark, JT O'Callaghan, TJ Swann, JT Wakeford (dies 1885) and JT Duly (dies 1885).
So, I am going to see if I can rule out Clark, Ocallaghan and Swann....
modified to add - OK , silly idea, I cant find any of them!!!
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Going by marriage,Emma Bowra & Thomas Richardson married Rye district.
Possibly ?
1901
Living Winding Street,Hastings
Jane Richardson ,married,head,52
TOM aged 20 born Eastbourne,Fisherman
William 17,born Hastings,Fisherman
RG13 865 55 24
omega
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OOOOh
that might just be the vital thing
I believe he is at Winding Street in 1911
so that could well be him!
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Unless the one I found went back to Hastings when his parents returned to Essex, got fed up with working as a stationers assistant, met the love of his life and became a fisherman. ;D ;D ;D
That's a possibility omega. I saw that earlier but wasn't sure as he always says his POB was Hastings. That fits with marrying as Thomas.
Jan
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Oh dear
1891
RG12 824 56 15
Purley Lodge truant School, Patcham
Thomas Richardson age 10 bn Eastbourne, inmate
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Mum Jane (42) brother William (6) and another sister Maggie (7) are at RG12 760 63 31 , as boarders in the house of a James Jennings.
Jane listed as married but no sign of a Mr R.
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And future Dad in law being a Boatman on 1891 & Waterman on 1901
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March 1881
RICHARDSON Thomas Eastbourne 2b 73
So where is the name John Thomas Richardson coming from?
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Seemed to add the John after 1904 marriage and before 1911 census!
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We need to find Mr Richardson`s christian name.
IF he was a Fisherman could be at Sea.
OH had Fisherman from Hastings.i have been lucky to to find them Docked UP for the night as far away as Cornwall on the census 8)
omega
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If Thomas was born Eastbourne 1881 March quarter, he should be in the 1881 census which was taken 3rd April.
However, the only Thomas Richardson born 1881 Eastbourne in the census has father Samuel 27 a bricklayer born Pevensey, mother Elizabeth 24 born Plymouth and siblings Emily 3 and George 2 born Eastbourne.
RG 11/1039/86/57
Jan
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so that must be the one the birth reg relates too.....
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so that must be the one the birth reg relates too.....
And isn't the one in Winding St in 1901. ::) ::)
There isn't a John or John Thomas born Eastbourne between 1880 and 1882, no Thomas born Hastings and only the John I found before born in Hastings between those dates. A real mystery.
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I'm just looking through an 1895 edition of Pike's Hastings & St.Leonards Directory and see if I can spot any Richardsons in any of the Old Town roads, lanes and passages.
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There's a Joseph Richardson at 23 Tackleway, Hastings
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Apparently we have 'Richardsons Cottages' just off All Saints Street.
George Richardson is at No.2 and Richardson & Sons Mineral Works is at No.4 :o
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I've found a John Thomas Richardson ???
born about 1874 in Buxted, Sussex.
son of William & Ann
brother of ...
William
James
Sarah
Mary Ann
George
Alfred
Living ...
Maresfield 1871
Isfield 1881
Isfield 1891
Isfield 1901
Am I close or way off the mark ???
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There's no real way of telling and it's very easy to go down the wrong path just because the names are the same. If I were you I'd wait until you get the certificate you sent for, post the details on here and we'll have another go. The dates of that one and POB are wrong if that was the correct one in 1911.
Jan
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I never was one for having patience ;D
I'll try another person in my tree till the certificate arrives 8)
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*Newsflash*
While I'm waiting for the marriage certificate to arrive I've carried on digging ... as blokes do :o
I've found George Richardson (b.1846 Hastings) married to Jane McDermott (b.1849 Hastings)
I think I found they were married about 1865 ish.
They had 4 children that I can see ?
Patience (b.1867)
... now there's a strange 14 year age gap where normally they'd squeeze 10 more kids in ???
Thomas (b.1881 and a candidate for my g g grandfather)
William (b. 1882)
Maggie (b.1884)
I'm not sure who her father is ???
In the 1851 census as a 4 year old sh's living with her 2 uncles (David & John McDermott) and her grandparents (Martin & Jane McDermott)
Is her father and mother dead ???
I think this is my family line as my cousin's mum remembers hearing the name McDermott mentioned by my grandmother over 60 years ago as a family name !!!
Either a lucky guess or my genealogy is vastly improving !! ;)
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Hi There ;D
Something for the backburner,J I C
From the Hastings PRs
James Macdermott,baptised 14 Feb 1823 ,at St Clements son of Martin & Jane (Holy Trinity)Dad a Tailor
Jane ,baptised 15 Mar 1825.
Thats all on the Fiche
Marriage from SMI
13 Feb 1813 at Bexhill,Martin McMermott & Jane George (b)
omega
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Hi
In the 1851 census as a 4 year old she's living with her 2 uncles (David & John McDermott) and her grandparents (Martin & Jane McDermott)
You don't know that, all you know is that she was there on census night 1851. Remember, the census is only a snap shot of who was actually in the house on that night - she may have just been having a sleep over with her grandparents. ;D ;D ;D
Jan
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Like that Jan
omega ;D ;D ;D
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Hi again
Jane Mcdermott,baptised 10 Oct 1852,at St Mary in the Castle
Daughter of John & Jane from Wellington Mews
omega
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Hi
In the 1851 census as a 4 year old she's living with her 2 uncles (David & John McDermott) and her grandparents (Martin & Jane McDermott)
You don't know that, all you know is that she was there on census night 1851. Remember, the census is only a snap shot of who was actually in the house on that night - she may have just been having a sleep over with her grandparents. ;D ;D ;D
Jan
Having said that, you could be right as she is still with her grandmother Jane in 1861 ;D ;D ;D ;D
RG 9/560/92/48
However I cant see either of their deaths in Freebmd between 1847 and 1851. Although if she was baptised in 1852, I presume they were alive then. ??? ???
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Oh god it's like swimming in treacle ::)
Her grandparents (Jane George & Martin McDermott) had 4 children ...
Ann, John, Rachel & David
We can rule out Ann & Rachel unless they had them out of wedlock.
David is too young !
I've got John married to Charlotte Chapman with 3 children ...
Sarah (b.1854)
Ruth (b.1858)
James (b.1860)
Assuming you're right Jane's mother is either Charlotte or John's first wife died ???
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Oh god it's like swimming in treacle
Welcome to the world of genealogy. (http://bestsmileys.com/frustrated/4.gif)
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James Macdermott,baptised 14 Feb 1823 ,at St Clements son of Martin & Jane (Holy Trinity)Dad a Tailor
Jane ,baptised 15 Mar 1825
So is that Jane George baptised in 15 March 1825 as a 32 year old ???
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NO,thats 2 differant Jane`s
Jane NO2 could be Jane NO1`s niece ;D
omega
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Got my first 12 month imprisonment ... attempt to ravish ? I guess that's now classed as attempted rape ???
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Hi gang :D
The marriage certificate has eventually arrived ;D
He seems to quite often drop his christian name of John Thomas, preferring simply Thomas.
No addresses which is a shame :(
Very puzzling as to why they should get married in Brede Church ??
It says they are residents of Brede ??
I don't suppose I would gain anything by going to Brede Church ??
His father George Richardson appears to have died before his sons marriage.
If I've found the right one, I think its the last quarter of 1901 although I can't find him in the 1891 or the 1901 census. Jane was lodging with James Jennings in 1891 ???
This now ties up with Jane McDermott being George's wife and Thomas's mother so that's a plus :D
The only siblings I can find for Thomas are William & Maggie, which for Victorian times is unusual unless some died.
Soooooo many more unanswered questions :'( ::)
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Here's the certificate
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if they were living in brede then it would make sense to marry in the parish church there
who are the witnesses Ann maria duly and JOhn gallop?
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Just seems a bit strange that a fisherman would be living in Brede and not on the coast. ??? ???
What was the occupation of the George that you found earlier?
*Newsflash*
While I'm waiting for the marriage certificate to arrive I've carried on digging ... as blokes do :o
I've found George Richardson (b.1846 Hastings) married to Jane McDermott (b.1849 Hastings)
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A George Richardson died Dec quarter 1901 aged 56 (so born abt 1845) Hastings 2b 17.
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Have you seen the 1851 census HO107/1635/455/33 ? Hastings
George Richardson 36
Patience Richardson 39
Elizabeth Richardson 11
Deborah Richardson 9
GEORGE RICHARDSON 4
John Richardson 1
This could be Thomas's father in 1851. It is the fact that his mother was called Patience as I believe the one you found called his daughter Patience.
Jan
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I've just been looking up Patience Richardson and it seems she was Christened twice !
Once in 1866 when she was born and once in 1876 I think when she was 9 ?
The second one has the added 'E' middle name letter but the mother and father are the same.
I can't view the original so I assume its an ancestry.co.uk mistake ???
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Certainly looks like the same one. The second one says:
Patience Elizabeth Richardson
birth: 7th August 1866
christened: 26th January 1876
age at christening 9
father: George
mother: Jane
Perhaps she wasn't expected to live at birth and was christened quickly as the first christening was on the 12th August 1866.
It does say collection All Saints under both, so I wonder if that was the church? If so it might be worth trying to find out where the records are and looking at the originals. Both are extracted records from the IGI FamilySearch.
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As a complete newcomer to this :-[ AND being a bloke ;) where would I find out about Church Christening records or who would I ask ... the Vicar or a Policeman ::) lol
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I've just subscribed to the free 14 day trial from findmypast :D
Not the best start ... I can't even find Patience in the 1871 census ... oh god :'(
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Try this
RG 10/ 1028/32/15
George Richardson 25 Fish seller Hastings
Jane Richardson 24 Hastings
Patience Richardson 4 Hastings
59 All Saints St Hastings
Be careful, there was another Patience Elizabeth Richardson in Hastings but born 1870.
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From a Burial Date disc i have.
Patience Richardson,11 Months,26 Jan 1872,All Saints :(
omega
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I wonder if that is the Patience Elizabeth Richardson born January quarter 1871 and christened 12th April 1871, daughter of John and Susan Richardson?
There is another death of a Patience E Richardson in 1941 aged 71 (so born abt 1867) in Hastings -2b 30. This could be yours if she didn't marry.
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As a complete newcomer to this :-[ AND being a bloke ;) where would I find out about Church Christening records or who would I ask ... the Vicar or a Policeman ::) lol
Parish records are held at the Local Record Office. Great Places to visit, a must for any Family Historian.
For Hastings it will be at Lewes (East Sussex Record Office) I believe.
see http://www.eastsussex.gov.uk/leisureandtourism/localandfamilyhistory/esro/default.htm
For West Sussex it is at Chichester.
see http://www.westsussex.gov.uk/leisure/explore_west_sussex/record_office_and_archives.aspx
Your profile doesnt say where you are, so I dont know if it is practical for you to make a visit.
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I'm in Fairlight Liz, so Lewes would be fine and dandy thank you ;D
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How strange to have two Patience Richardsons in the same town and only a few years difference ::)
The one that I believe is mine has no middle name or letter just plain ole' Patience Richardson:-\
I have her as born on 7 August and baptised on 12 August 1866 and as a 4 year old in the 1871 census ... then nothing for the 1881, 1891 and 1901 ... where was she as a 14, 24 and 34 year old ???
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Have you found the rest of the family in the later censuses? She may well have been a servant living elsewhere by 1881 and married by 1891.
Do you actually know that she survived childhood?
Jan
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Do you actually know that she survived childhood?
Jan
Jan ... I'm at the point in my ancestry search where my family roots have grown from the small flowering fuchsia of January into the Giant Sequoia of February :o
The computer is now in the vegetable compartment of the fridge to add extra cooling :-\
I go to work with matchsticks as a permanent fixture to aid my eyelids ;)
I even go to bed with a notepad in case I wake with an inspirational idea :P
... did she survive childhood ... ooh can I ask the audience ;D hehe
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the 1971 census shows 2 Patience Richardsons b. Hastings your one d/o George & Jane and Patience E aged 7 months d/o John & Susan
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there is a death in 1872 of a baby Patience Richardson in Hastings
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Pateince E didnt marry she died in 1941 (Aged 74) in Hastings
well i think she did the age actually ties in with your Pateince but the age is given byt he informant and they may not have known exactly how old she was
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here is something to confuse you ;D
Patience Richardson
Female
Christening Date: 12 Aug 1866
Place: Hastings, Sussex, England
Father's George Richardson
Mother's Jane
: Patience Elizabeth Richardson
Birth Date: 7 Aug 1866
Christening Date: 26 Jan 1876
Place: Hastings, Sussex, England
Age at Christening: 9
Father's George Richardson
Mother's: Jane
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I wonder if that is the Patience Elizabeth Richardson born January quarter 1871 and christened 12th April 1871, daughter of John and Susan Richardson?
There is another death of a Patience E Richardson in 1941 aged 71 (so born abt 1867) in Hastings -2b 30. This could be yours if she didn't marry.
Hi Toni
Thats what I thought earlier but I can't find her in any of the censuses after 1871 can you?
We found those christenings earlier - I wonder if she was christened soon after birth as she wasn't expected to live?
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Hi Groom - i am looking and positing as i come across anything :)
Patience Elizabeth Richardson
Christening Date: 12 Apr 1871
Place: Hastings, Sussex, England
Father's John Richardson
Mother's: Susan
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Patience Elizabeth Richardson
Christening Date: 12 Apr 1871
Think that is the one who died the same year. Complicated family this one. ;D ;D
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yes that would make sense Groom
i have foudn John & Susan in 1881 and they only had a son John with them
RG11; 1022; 28; 5
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yes that would make sense Groom
i have foudn John & Susan in 1881 and they only had a son John with them
RG11; 1022; 28; 5
ditto 1891
RG12; 759; 22; 5
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So we are left with Patience, daughter of George and Jane, who looks like the right one. Just need to find her and the family in the censuses.
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if she was Patience Elizabeth I have found an Elizabeth Richardson in 1881 a servant here
RG11; 1040; 7;: 9;
Trying to rule out that she is not an Elizabeth in 1871
I tried a different way and looked for Richardson b. Hastings 1868 +/- 2 years exact matches only on the UK census
1871 shows 7
Allice [sic]
Anna
Patience
Robert
Charles
Ellen
Patience E
1881 also shows 7
Elizabeth
Anna
Hester A
Robert
Charles J
Ellen
Ellen
1891 again shows 7
Annie
Robert
Charles James
Charlotte
Ellen
Alfred
George
But the 1901 shows 12 some of whom I expect married a Richardson
Sarah A
Annie
Elizabeth
Jessie
Robert
William
Matilda
Charles
Charlotte
Charlotte
Ellen
Edward
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I wonder if she was calling herself Elizabeth in 1881?
Elizabeth Richardson aged 15 Domestic Servant born Hastings.
In the house of John F Mockett and family at 95 Sea Side Eastbourne.
RG 11/1040/7/9
Same idea, toni. Ii couldn't find any called Patience either. However there is no Elizabeth after 1881 either. ??? ??? ???
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This isn't making any sense. ??? ???
We know that a Patience Elizabeth Richardson died in Hastings in 1941, so where is she between 1871 and then? She doesn't appear on any census, not even the last one.
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I wonder if she was married in 1891 although her death shouldn’t be registered as Patience E Richardson
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Groom she doesn’t appear to travel anywhere either
Could she be in an asylum / institution although she should still be enumerated? Maybe under her initials.
I did look for just Patience b. 1868 +/- 2 years but nothing that’s positively her and there are some Patience Richardsons but not born the right year and plenty of Elizabeth’s as you can imagine!
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According to Freebmd there are only 3 marriages of a Patience Richardson between 1890 and 1906, none in Sussex. So doesn't look as if she married.
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ok so we think she didnt marry and that is her death in Hastings under the name Richardson and her middle name as Elizabeth so it is possible that is her on the 1881 & 1891 census but then what?
i think perhaps the death cert. might reveal some clues with the name of the informant and p.o.d
one other thought she could be with a married sister sibling as sister and enumarated under that surname
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Hi ... I'm back ;D
Searching for Patience Richardson to tie up some loose ends was sending me to an early grave :P
I decided to rest it and change tact completely and researched some of the Pepper family :D
Yep I've hit another gluey patch :o so I'm back on the Patience Richardson hunt ;)
Thanks very much Toni* for your searching, I have a very tangled web of family history :-\
Cheers Dave ;D
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I have only found this post last week and only the week before discovered the same information as the others regarding Fanny Pepper. Her eldest daughter Mary Jane Pepper was my husbands Great grandmother. I thought she had all the children by Larkin before marrying him never thought that they might have different fathers. Looks like we may be on the same trail.
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Hi Dave (maxitup1966)
I can't reply to your message as I have only done one post and it won't let me. Re the Pepper/Larkin relationship. My husband's G Grandmother was Mary Jane Pepper who was Fanny Pepper's oldest child (born 18/11/1873) as far as I can make out.
I have Fanny's marriage cert dated 02/02/1889 which gave her father's name as Stephen Pepper, George's father as James Larkings and is witnessed by Frederick Larkin and Emily Larkin (not sure who these are). I also have Mary Jane Pepper's marriage certificate which gives her father as George Larkings so I am not sure if this is because she is living with him (at 81 and half All Saints Street) or if he really was her father which I guess would also make all the other Pepper/Larking children his.
With this I think I have tracked George back to 1851 living at the above address and Fanny back to 1861 but as I have only just started to look at my husband's side of the family I am still working on it all. Please let me know if you need any information on the above or if you want copies of what I have found.
regards
Tina
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Hi Tina
I'm guessing that George was listed as Mary Jane father for the benefit of the marriage certificate. I suppose the only sure way to check is by sending off for a copy of her birth certificate and see who's named as the father. Was George married before ???
If you can scan and email me the certificates that would be great ... but if you haven't got access to a scanner don't worry :)
Are you using ancestry.co.uk for your tree ??
Cheers Dave
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Hi Dave spoke to you before about this through Jackie my cousin not sure if you remember. Anyway my mother told me emma who was married to John t Richardson that one of mums aunts told her emmas parents were Irish also John was known as just Tom also he's nickname was Crockser and he's brother was Bill Richardson .you probably know all this but my son has been researching the family tree.JT and Emma were my great grandparents also, apparently mum said Emma was always outside with her sleeves rolled up fighting him (must be the Irish blood)lol and he was a complete swine by all accounts.hope this helps if I find anything else will let you know. Emmas parents were Esther and Edgar bowra and had 5 children called Frederick W , Fanny, George A, Percy john and Emma.we think JT richardsons parents were george born 1815 and hanna born 1821 and they had 8 children named hanna,george b,mary t,william,ralph l,joseph,george s and john but it looks like hanna had 4 children before hooking up with george we think .her maiden name was barkas
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Hi Mandy
I have Emma born Hastings 1884.
Her mother Esther born Piltdown, Sussex 1857 and her father Edgar born Sevenoaks Kent 1858.
Edgars father William was also born in Sevenoaks in 1817 and Edgars mother Anne was from Chiddingstone Kent.
I'm guessing Emma's paternal family were from the Kent area certainly after the early 1800's?
Emma's maternal grandparents may have been Irish but I don't have a birth or marriage certificate so I don't know her maiden/family name?
I think Emma's eldest brother named Edgar after his father either died at birth or before his 1st birthday so Frederick became her eldest brother born 2 years before her in 1882. He died the year before we were born in 1964 so your mum would remember him!
As for John Thomas Richardson I have his parents as George Richardson born Hastings 1846 & Jane McDermott born Hastings 1847.
I think your George born 1815 and Hannah born 1821 is JT Richardsons grandparents as your George would have been a father at 66 LOL !!
I've sent you a private message with my contact details Mandy :-)