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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: bgoodman on Friday 04 February 11 20:29 GMT (UK)
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I have just found George Goodman's burial place in Rickmansworth 1888 age 39. Sadly a patch of lawn only. Surprised that twenty eight years later in 1916 another burial, followed by another in 1925 and the last one in 1942, all unrelated, all unmarked. It was a public assisted burial on non consecrated ground. Finding his birth registration is another matter not necessary to prove before issuing a death or burial cert so it appears.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Sadly - there were may public burials in those days and even later. My own paternal granparents and great grandparents are all buried in such graves.
George was born approx 1849/50 in Ricksmansworth according to the 1881 census but there is no birth registration and it would not have been necessary to prove his age when his death was registered.
Failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1874/75 so many births prior to then went unregistered
Are you trying to find his parents?
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Hi
Trying to find a link ............
Back-burner ....................... This could be him in 1861 in The (White) Bear, Rickmansworth
(aka Batchworth / Frogmore)
1861 RG9 835 90 1 , Rickmansorth, District 6d, page 1
Eliza Treadaway 43 Widow Inn Keeper Cranford Middlesex
Rebecca Francis 36 Sister Barmaid Cranford Middlesex
Sarah Collett 18 Servant Harefield Middlesex
William Simpson 33 Boarder Aylesbury
George Goodman 15 LodgerAgLab Rickmansworth
Thomas Andrew 23 LodgerAgLab Rickmansworth
The (White) Bear is on the canal, so a possibility could be that he is the child of bargees.
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1851?
HO107 1714 486 8, Rickmansworth, District 1e, page 8
(Batchworth)
James Goodman Head Blacksmith 49 Rickmansworth
Sarah Goodman Wife 46 Great Gaddesden
Mary Goodman Dau 22 Rickmansworth
John Goodman Son 14 Rickmansworth
Thomas Goodman Son 12 Rickmansworth
Henry Goodman Son 10 Rickmansworth
George Goodman Son 7 Rickmansworth
Ann Goodman Dau 3 Berkhampstead
Guess what links the 3 areas mentioned? Yup, canal.
Lots of Goodman registered Berko & Hemel Hempstead
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FreeBMD .......
Mar 1844 Watford 6 653 Goodman George
Also lists elder siblings including
Dec 1839 Newport Pagnell 6 364 Goodman Mary Ann
AND a possible NEWPORTPAGNELL marriage
Dec 1837 NP 6 645 Goodman James / Covington Sarah
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Ray
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Thank you for your reply Carole & Ray. I have looked at both those census entries and unfortunately it appears that the George listed there would be too old for my George. The only birth that seems to tie in with his death re census month etc is a George born in Wargrave 1848 with a father James. Unfortunately on 1881 census he said born in Ricky therefore wanted to be more certain.
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Hi
How do you know that the GG in 1888 is the one that you are looking for?
Would you like to post the census references where you have found him?
We may then be able to get a better picture.
If the person registering his death did not actually know him then his age may be an estimate by them. Who did register the death?
What are the actual burial details.
Cheers
Ray
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Thanks for your efforts. I know for sure that this is the correct George as it mentions him in connection to his wife in his daughter's burial info. I am waiting to get burial info from HALS re his daughter's grave no. George died in March, Margaret his daughter died in May and another daughter, cared for by a grandmother, died in Ireland in September all in the same year 1888. Sad time for his wife who I found later had returned to Ireland. He married in Clonmel Ireland 1875. It said on his marriage cert that he was a soldier and that his father's name was James. I have tried doing hours of research at Kew for his military history and also paid two researchers to try but without the regiment it has proved impossible. He was living in Batchworth in 1879 when his daughter Mary was born. He had several children in Rickmansworth after that. In the 1881 census he is at Bury farm Batchworth said he was age 31! although it appears crossed. He actually died at Bury farm 1n 1888. He was an ag labourer/cowman. Person in attendence is Elizabeth Winfield. I have tried looking for rent rolls, marriage bans baptisms adult confirmation etc. His wife was Irish Catholic not sure if he was originally.
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Hiya
What was his wife's maiden name?
Ray
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His wife was Mary McCarthy and their daughter in the 1881 census was Mary K. Her name is Mary Katherine Goodman. Their son George, Hubert, my grand father, daughters Theresa and Margaret born afterwards.
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I have found a site about the 34th foot (cumberland) just by chance
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I discovered that my great grand father had enlisted in the army on the 10th of May 1871 at Westminister. His age was 22 years born in Rickmansworth. I guess his year of birth would be 1848 or 1849. He died at age 39 in 1888 that I do know including where he is buried. I have not known his reg before and this is the second mention that he was born in Rickmansworth. However there is no national or otherwise registration of his birth. I have tried e-mailing the person who owns the site about the 34th foot although the e-mail address does not appear to be valid. I wonder if anyone knows what the number 1951 before Private Goodman George means. Also if anyone could please point me in the right direction from here.
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I discovered that my great grand father had enlisted in the army on the 10th of May 1871 at Westminister. His age was 22 years born in Rickmansworth. I guess his year of birth would be 1848 or 1849. He died at age 39 in 1888 that I do know including where he is buried. I have not known his reg before and this is the second mention that he was born in Rickmansworth. However there is no national or otherwise registration of his birth. I have tried e-mailing the person who owns the site about the 34th foot although the e-mail address does not appear to be valid. I wonder if anyone knows what the number 1951 before Private Goodman George means. Also if anyone could please point me in the right direction from here.
I was unable to find my own way with searching regiment details on the national archives site although I am very pleased to say that the site owner did some research for me with positive results. He managed to get me the pay muster details of my great grandfather including his whereabouts from 1871 to 1877. George Goodman appears to have done the minimum time in the army. His enlistment details which were very few and did not really give me much in the way of new info. I was hoping for religion and next akin which would have helped me to eliminate some goodman families. Still unable to find any registered birth at rickmansworth. Sadly there does not appear to be any more info available from the military side as apparently the records for persons who did not receive a pension were burned. Nice to have had a little breakthrough
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Not sure that I am writing on this site properly therefore please excuse my poor computer skills. I have recently obtained the DNA result from my 84 year old father's swabs. He is the grandson of George Goodman from Rickmansworth. I was somewhat disappointed as I expected the results to be more informative relating directly to my family. However I am now part of the Goodman project and there is the option of paying for more checks. Hopefully more people will partake in this form of research increasing the chances of finding matches. Also I was advised to try a site called Lost Cousins which again works on this principle the more people offer information the better.
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Hi
George Goodman
Birth Date: abt 1842
Christening Date: 11 Nov 1842
Christening Place: Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England
Father's Name: John Goodman
Mother's Name: Ann
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Thank you Ray for your effort. I know that my dad's grandfather George listed his father's name as James on his marriage cert. The birth year makes the person that you mentioned too old. I know that there was a James Goodman, who was a Blacksmith, with a son George also living in Rickmansworth. However, that George was born in 1844 also. My George is almost certain to be born between 1848/50 by his death cert, the 1881 census and his age at enlistment into the army. I know that there was a lodger George aged 15 years at The Bear pub in Rickmansworth in 1861 which would make that George born about 1846. I realize people were not always truthful about their age inaddition to human error and guess work. Well Ray thank you again and for now the search goes on.
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Hi
I was drawn to your Goodman post as I also have Rickmansworth Goodman's albeit by marriage, although I don't think there is any link as mine originate in Chesham Bucks.
Just a thought, have you considered looking at the children of James & Sarah Goodman in 1851 who are living in Batchworth, I realise you have been put off their son George because of his birth date being 1844 but he does seem to be the most likely candidate for your George & ages are only as good as the people who gave them, as I have found with my research. :o
As you know this George is living at the Bear public house in 1861, his father James is in Watford Union Workhouse & his mother has died. The daughter of James & Sarah, Louisa, marries John Thackham 24 Dec 1859 in Ricky & they can be found in Batchworth on the census. The thing that has struck me is that most of the children from this family can be found living in the area of Batchworth & Harefield in 1881 along with your returning George & wife Mary.
All seems to much of a coincidence to ignore completely.
Best of luck with your research.
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie for your comments. I agree about the coincidence I searched the blacksmith James Goodman and his family right back through the parish records etc. Unfortunatley he does not appear to be my George's father. There is a birth cert at watford registry office for that George born in 1844 which does tie in exactly with the census. There were other Goodman families around the batchworth area also at that time. Maybe there is a connection re cousins or something who knows.
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Please has anyone any information on a house 58 Queen's Road, Watford in 1891. George Joseph Goodman son of George Goodman, my great grandfather, was also born in Rickmansworth July,1881. Not sure if it is him in Watford in the 1891 Census (RG12/118) at 58 Queens Road living as a Boarder. He would have been only 9, as his birthday was after the census date, although in the census his age may have been rounded up to 10. The household head, Catherine Sullivan, is a Milliner which I believe is a hat maker. I have looked at 58 Queens Road and it appears to be a large house now if the numbering is still applicable. In 1891 there were several young boys, two as young as 3, living there and from all different birth places. I spoke to Hertford Archives and they were unaware of any places for example related to the workhouse. The genealogist site has transcribed the road incorrectly as Luccouse Road. Ancestry has transcribed his name as Dooman. I did look at the census myself and I know the area well therefore I recognised the errors. Presumably he was living there following the death of his father in 1888. His mother Mary Goodman (nee McCarthy) may have already returned to Ireland as she was there in latter years for certain. In 1891 there is another family living in their previous home, bury farm cottage in Batchworth, Rickmansworth. My grand father Hubert Goodman (his brother) believed George to be still living in the London area when Hubert mentioned George on army papers. I know my grand father in later years tried putting advertisements etc in newspapers but he was unable to find out what happened to his brother. I know all the other children in their family were dead by 1911.
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Sadly time has run out for me re informing my dad of the details of his grandfather's family. John Goodman my dad died on the 7th of Feb 2012 in Ireland. He was aged 85 years, the last person in his family. However I will still keep searching for information re George Joseph Goodman, his grandfather who was buried in Chorleywood Road Cemetery Rickmansworth in 1888.
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My condolences to you for the sad loss of your dad. I'm so sorry you haven't been able to discover his forbears as yet but hopefully one day they will come to light.
Kind regards
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie you are very kind. I went to the family history event in London today and spoke about the dna test that I had done, on my dad's behalf, last year. I upgraded one of the 12 marker matches of another surname to check with my dad's 37 markers. Hopefully something will come out of it. The researcher said that my forebears (re dna) come out of north europe mainly scotland and england. Apparently my dad's dna didn't appear to match with any of the other Goodmans that they had. Well the search goes on.
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With some help I now know a little more about 58 Queens Road Watford. This is where I believe George Goodman son of George, my great grand father, was living in 1891. His mother, who was a widow by then, may have returned to Ireland.
In 1887 Sisters of The Third Order of St Dominic, at Harrow on the hill, bought a a site in Queens Road Watford Herts. They built a convent and orphanage. 58 Queens Road became St Vincent's Boys Home and 64 Queen's Road, Westgate House, became St Vincent's Convent. In 1892 the Dominican sisters sold their site in Queens Road and purchased a site in the newly developed Percy Road Watford adjacent to the Holy Rood Catholic Church. In 1893 the new premises housed both the convent and their girls school and was then enlarged by the building of a St. Catherine's House for Boys. The girls school appeared to be private. Quite separately, a Board School was started for Catholic children with entirely lay staff, with the parish priest as the Reverend Manager.
George's mother was a Catholic therefore on the 1891 census at 58 Queens Road this does look like George. I hope this information may assist someone else as I had previously looked at info re St Catherine's House for boys and had not associated it with 58 Queen's Road as the areas are not exactly close to each other.
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Hi
For background ............
64 Queens Road is the (old) Hammonds shop
58 Queens Road looks like the "wine/beer" (+pizza?) shop
(Use Google Streetview?)
The distance between the Percy Road site and 58-64QR is around 200-250 yards
Much(most?) of the properties between have been replaced.
Assuming, that is, the road has not been re-numbered.
R
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Hi
Have you considered the Goodman family in Flaunden?
George is "Correct Age"
Registered Hemel Hempstead
Flaunden is quite close to Rickmansworth.
Maybe George got used to saying the "nearest town" as the place of his birth.
R
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My ggrand father George Goodman served as a British soldier in Clonmel, Ireland as I have previously mentioned. Recently the soldiers barracks in Clonmel, Kickham Barracks, has ceased to be. It served for 350 years making Clonmel a well known garrison town. Apparently there was a very touching soldiers marching out ceremony through the town. I mention the above as I know that there has been some interest in Kickham Barracks from rootschat members in the distant past.
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Sorry Ray I have just seen your comments and thank you. I realize that I am not too good at using rootschat correctly. I also looked at the off licence re 58 Queens road and agree if the numbering is still correct it is one and the same. It is interesting to know the whereabouts of the 64 Queens Road. I do know that shop and have passed it many times. The George at Queens road is the son of my ggrand father who was George also. I have got the birth cert for that George in 1881 Rickmansworth. The problem there is where he went after Queens road.
With reference to my ggrand father born 1848 approx, I did think about the Flaunden connection at one stage although if I remember correctly the age difference was too great for the George born in Flaunden. George senior mentioned that he was born in Rickmansworth twice. In 1871 when enlisting in the army, papers now destroyed, and in the 1881 census. His enlistment age of 22 years eight months and his death age of 39 years all seem to point to 1848. However my problem is no birth registered.
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I too have been looking for information on the Convent Of St Vincent, Percy Road, Hertford and have just come across your enquiry. I found a reference to it on Images of England and also through The Church of the Holyrood Watford. I hope this might be of help to you.
I am new to Rootschat, so have only just seen your posting from March.
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Thank you A. Hunter for your reply and welcome to roots chat. Yes I have seen similar reference re holy rood etc. Difficulty now is trying to find any records of possible baptism details. I wrote recently to the catholic library in London and in the past and again recently to various churches. Barnet was suggested as a parish whereby records may be stored. I wrote in 1999 to the priest at the time and it appears records are not kept there. I may try again as the present parish priest may now have more information.
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It took forever to get the results and access to the upgrade of Mr Paul Fullwood's DNA. I had hoped by upgrading the Fullwood DNA to 37 marker it may show further matches with my late dad's (37 marker) DNA test, John Goodman. They had matched at the basic 12 marker. Unfortunately there were no further matches. Now I am hoping to find another Goodman willing to be swabbed and try that way around. I have identified one individual although his ancestors came from Devon not Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire. It may be useful for elimination purposes. Desperate times.
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hi im a goodman with a great great great great grandfather James Goodman whos son is George Goodman who was married to a sarah (he was born 1862 Batchworth Heath ) ... they had a son of joseph Goodman married to Jane ...they had a daughter dorothy / Ethel & Lillian and a son william who is my grandfather (Jane remarried to nash and had 3 more children )....you say in your post your father died this year ? (sorry to hear that ).... i have only just seen this site with your threads as i am also trying to find out who us goodmans are ... I think i could be part of the goodman family you talk of ? :)
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Forgot to add my great grandfather joseph goodman lived in Bourne End Lane...Bourne End Herts with his wife jane (trowles ) . (between hemel hempstead and berkhamstead )
sorry could i please ask your parents name and your fathers parents name ? im just trying to make heads/tails to my references as well ... many thanks :)
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Hi, thank you for your comments re my dad. I know that a James Goodman, blacksmith, married Sarah Hansted on 2nd of December 1826. They later had many children including a son George born in 1844. Unfortunately this George was not my ancestor as he would have been too old. There are quite a lot of records available for James and Sarah. Not sure also of my paternal ancestor's religion whereas the blacksmith Goodman family appear to be Church of England.
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Thank you 1783Caz for your second post re the link. My ancestor died in 1888 and although his son, also called George Joseph, was believed to be alive in 1916 he was not located later by his brother Hubert, my grandfather. I therefore do not know when he died or whether he had any children to carry on the name in England. As a result it is difficult to see if there is any link with other local Goodman families. My grandfather Hubert had moved to Ireland at a young age. It appears George Joseph who was then fatherless was left behind in the home for boys.
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hi sorry you have to be delicate as im new to this site lol ... i have been looking at a family tree ive been given access to and have on it in order a james goodman born approx 1802 and married to a sarah (surname unknown or marraige date ) ...he had a son james goodman (rickmansworth ) married to louisa ...who then had a son george (batchworth heath ) married sarah jeffs ... and then had a son Joseph who was born 1887 in rickmansworth and died 11th august 1917 ...looking through past posts i see there was slight confusion over towns ...yrs ago hemel hempstead was sometimes owned by other districts such as st.albans and watford so it can easily be confused sometimes .... :)
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Hi 1783caz
[Welcome to Rootschat]
You say that you see "slight confusion over towns"?
Do you want to expand on what is confusing you and we'll see if we can help?
Regards
Ray
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hi ray ...thanks ...in earlier posts it mentioned possibility about this persons ancestor refering to his nearest town to as hemel ...it may be revelent or may not be but i found out a little while ago that hemel was once owned by st albans district and also watford .not sure when though. :)
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hi there ...ive been doing a bit of digging today to find out what i could ... one of our oldest goodmans whos still alive at 98yrs ...her grandfather was george joseph goodman who had 2 sons (a) joseph Goodman (her father ) and another (b) George Goodman ....so this lady had an uncle george and a grandfather george goodman .
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The family of Benjamin Goodman and Olive Geary appear to fit with your information as they had thirteen children. All of their children were born in Flaunden Hertfordshire. I have received a family tree from another researcher re this Flaunden family and she confirmed also that we are not related. Joseph, one of the children born 1840 and George born 1853 would not be within my ancestor's age range. Benjamin and Olive's first born was William born 1838 married in 1864 to a Margaret Turner they had children James born 1867 Jane born 1870 Ambrose 1873 and Mary 1875. Jane was a grandmother to the lady researcher that contacted me.
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okey dokey i shall have a look anyway thanks :)
but my joseph isnt 1840 but 1887 -1917 born in rickmansworth like the rest and come to live in bourne end with his wife ...i have most my family tree names just trying to get the dates for the new ones that have been added recently ... they were all born in rickmansworth not flaunden and that information is from relatives and not from me having to looking it up ....but i will have a look though as you never know whats round the corner :)
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I guess Caz that the 98 year old lady would have been born in 1914. My late father's grandfather was George Joseph born approx 1848 and he gave his father's name as James on his marriage cert. Still, it would be interesting to know from the 1841 census onwards where this lady's most recent ancestors were. Even more interesting would be to swab a male member of her Goodman relatives. I spoke to a volunteer researcher in Feb at the London event and she was married to a Goodman. She mentioned that she has discovered that Goodman is not the original family name. I know that there was a Russian Goodman naturalized in 1871, records available at Hertford Archives. Luckily I found an army enlistment for my ancestor at Westminster in 1871 otherwise I may have considered that possibility having not found any registered birth record at Rickmansworth. If all that isn't confusing enough eh. Good luck with your research and you never know we may connect somewhere with the elusive Goodmans.
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Sorry if I misunderstood you Caz and you are very lucky to have someone in your family to pass information like that on. I know that the 1840 Flaunden Joseph had a son Joseph born 1865 and a son George born 1867. I was thinking if the son 1865 had children himself etc. Of course the places may still not be quite right even if they did move out of Flaunden.
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This ladys grandfather george also has a father called james ...Shes my dads late fathers sister and shes one of the only ones left to know anything of her familys real past ....if there are any questions you would like to know anything i can relay them back to her ...
A swab will also prob be fine ...
I heard alsorts about goodmans also being jewish name ...but nothings realy set until you find it though ...it mustve been extremely confusing for you having not had much to go on to start with :( ... lucky ive had relatives to inform me through a lot of my tree ...also with my grandfather on the war memorial by his old house and enlisted with the army from ypres memorial ... we are a very big family and been in these areas proberbly longer than most lol. ..but yeh the elusive goodmans we are lol :)
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sorry just seen your other post ...no your correct flaunden wont fit ... we dont have 2 josephs in line ...we have james whos father to george and hes father to another george .junior george wouldve been 20 or 30 i reckon during 1st world war . ( i dont have a date for him yet )
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hi,
can you put on the dates for your James goodman, george goodman(senior) and any information about the young George.
Also where abouts in Rickmansworth did they live. If you dont mind asking your 98yr old relative, does she know if any of the Goodmans were married to an Irish woman .
You never know you may just be related to rootchatter b.goodman.
Look forward to seeing your reply.
jackie
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hi ...i have tried asking for more info on my side but no replies yet ...will be taking a trip to rickmansworth parish to get a look at proper records soon and will let you know the outcome .
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Hi 1783Caz, I hope that you have managed to get some Parish info at Rickmansworth. Watford also has Rickmansworth Parish records on film. You mentioned that your family have been in the area for generations. Another family that have also had generations living in Rickmansworth appear to be the Gristwood family. I know that there was a Goodman Gristwood marriage, not related to me as far as I know although may have some connection with you. I know also that there is quite a lot of military history with the Goodman families from Rickmansworth. You may find even more about your family from that aspect also. With the DNA it would have to be a male Goodman as I am going down that line as it is more accurate. I received the swabs for the gentleman who is willing to be swabbed and have sent them on to him to do the honers. I will have to take a break from that for now as it is so expensive £100+ and I am usually not so reckless just desperate at this stage. I also received a reply from the Catholic Archives in London and it appears that it would be a minefield to know where my ancestors had their children baptized. Not sure if you feel OK about answering this, please decline if you want to. Were all your ancestors Church of England opposed to protestant and/or any other religion. I know some religions used Joseph more than others as a male first or second name. Does your living relative know of any mixed faith marriages from further back. I am not sure what religion my ggrandfather was baptized into before marriage. He may or may not have been a catholic.
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hi there ...ive not had a chance to get to Rickmansworth as of yet but if i can view it at watford then that be better for me thanks for info :) ... Funny you should mention the Gristwood family as im at present looking into them as theres a very big possibility its our Georges mother (currently speaking to one of the gristwood relatives) ....i am suspicious of all these Goodmans being in Rickmansworth all at the same time .Im thinking they are all related in some way or another ...cousins /neices/nephews the lot ...i happened to look at a few other family trees that have same marrraiges etc and to find there will possibly be an older sister Elizebeth for my George of which could help me? ...but one of the family trees im looking at is very likely its loads of aunts /uncles etc .... Does your George have a middle name ? im am keeping my eyes peeled on my research and keep coming back to check on here for your info incase your George comes up like a cousin or something ...I dont know of any faith/religion my family wouldve had ... could you please advice of a good online site that you found quite helpful ? thanks :)
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Hi
If this is any good to you, James Goodman son of James & Sarah nee Hansted married Louisa Gristwood at Northwood Holy Trinity Dec 7th 1861. Their fathers were James Goodman Blacksmith & Joseph Gristwood laborer.
In 1861 Louisa was living with her Uncle Edward, James Goodman was also staying there as was 1 year old Elizabeth Gristwood.
James & Louisa's children were,
George Henry Christened 16th Nov 1862 Northwood Holy Trinity
Ellen christened 27th Mar 1864 Northwood Holy Trinity
Arthur christened 4th June 1865 Northwood Holy trinity
Alice christened 31st Mar 1867 Northwood Holy Trinity
Emma christened 28th Mar 1869 Harefield St Mary
Rosina born 1871, can't find a christening
William christened 8th Mar 1874 Northwood Holy Trinity
Albert christened 8th July 1877 Northwood Holy Trinity.
I think George was possibly the father of your Joseph caz, they lived in Croxley Green in 1901. Does that sound correct.
Hope this helps.
Maddie
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Thank you 1783caz for your reply. I agree with Maddie that the blacksmith does appear to have some connection with your family. Bless him he did end up in the work house WGH. Some other Goodman family members also ended up there. Whereas Issac (maybe Jewish branch)+ Goodman ended up in Leavesden described as a lunatic. I think also Louisa Goodman had a child out of wedlock. Sorry just remembering what I looked up in the past although haven't got dates etc. I think it was in the 1871 census. Watford Library has those all on film. You asked what I found helpful re sites to search. I found familysearch.org the mormom site useful. The 1881 census is good as a search on that site as it clearly shows the groups of Goodman families in Rickmansworth. I know an Edward Goodman also named Ted married into a gypsey family and someone on rootschat is searching that family already. I know also that there is a connection with the Goodman family from Water Eaton and the Wargrave Goodman family. James Goodman, who was a gentleman, from Wargrave left a will giving something to his grandson. I remember reading a connection with the Emerton family. Equally there is also some connection there with Newport Pagnell. A member of Rootschat mentioned previously that a lot of the Goodman families lived near a town that has a canal. My ggrandfather's middle name was Joseph and in fact he had his church marriage recorded as Joseph although the government register had George. He said that his father's name was James. His son was also called George Joseph. My grandfather called his son, my uncle, George Joseph too. My brother called his eldest son George.
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Not sure if I mentioned this before but my great grandfather George Goodman had an Elizabeth Winfield in attendance when he died in 1888 in Rickmansworth at Bury farm. I tried looking up the 1881 census for Elizabeth Winfield from the Rickmansworth and Watford areas. I got an Elizabeth age 10 living at 6, Birches Yard, Watford. She would be approx 17years in 1888. Another Elizabeth Winfield living in Rickmansworth who was aged 48 married to a Gasworks Laborer. I was wondering if the older Elizabeth married a Goodman and she may have been a member of George's family. Does anyone know of a Goodman Winfield marriage. With the younger Elizabeth I vaguely remember that there was a yard in Watford with some connection to Goodman. If anyone also knows whether an Elizabeth Winfield worked on Bury farm or perhaps for Lord Ebury in some capacity.
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1783Caz this may be of interest to you. It concerns soldiers who died in the great war from the Naval and Military Press. There was a Joseph Goodman born in Rickmansworth who enlisted at Watford, residence in Rickmansworth. He enlisted in the Ist Garrison Battalion of the Bedfordshire Regiment. He died in India on 30/11/18. Rank A/CPL, Number 8074. Not sure if he was a relative of yours. Also in 1808 there is an article in the Watford Observer (online) written by James Inwood about a William Goodman who died following an attempt at poaching in Rickmansworth. I noticed that you mentioned a William in your family. Sometimes first names are repeated as in my family. Not sure if there is any connection to your family.
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Hi there ...i remember you mentioned Elizabeth Winfield i tried looking for her as well last week but found the same as you ... i cant believe how much lack of info there is on your george ...the mind boggles lol ...
I remember someone who got a few things wrong on our tree and had our George married to an isobella Dolamon (who was born Divapore ,India ) im not sure how this happened but might be worth checking her out .
Lol i saw that article on william goodman some time ago ...poaching other people fish and getting in a brawl about it lol ... at the time i didnt know much but now i have seen my Goodman family tree by relatives ive recently found and it prob is one of ours ( tut tut tut ) lol ... our tree is absolutley huge as many grandparents had about 12 kids and so on ...loads of same names ...theres a George on the tree born 1844
Do you know if your George had any brothers /sisters ?
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Hi
Unfortunately I can't find any connection between Elizabeth Winfield, wife of William, living in Mill End, to your Goodman's, or any Goodman's come to that. :-\
Elizabeth Winfield was a Hawkins before she married in 1852, no connection there either, William & Elizabeth are still in Mill End in 1891. There's no mention of her being a "nurse" on the census but I wonder if she could have been someone who sat with dying patients.
The younger Elizabeth you found in Watford doesn't appear to marry & is with her widowed mother in 1901, still in Watford.
Funnily enough the Joseph Goodman who died in India that you mention was one of mine, actually my Uncle's Uncle, they lived in Talbot Road.
To many Goodman's in Ricky.......... ;)
If I find anything to help you out I shall be back.
Maddie
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Hi
For notes pile . . . . .
I was just about to say
"Dolamon - keep in mind Dolamore/Dollimore (various spellings) quite a common surname around SWHerts"
Marriage 1891 Sep Watford 3a 819
Dolamon/Dolamore Isabella / Goodman George Henry
"A member of Rootschat mentioned previously that a lot of the Goodman families lived near a town that has a canal."
Yup, Me and it was Rickmansworth ;D
Ray
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Thanks 1783Caz re your comments. You mentioned an 1844 George. I know that there is a birth cert for George Goodman on freeBMD under Watford 1844. There is probably a copy at Watford registry office also for George who I am almost certain is the son of James the Blacksmith. Sometimes applying for a cert knowing only one parent's name is enough. I obtained most of my certs at Watford and on looking at the certs they then specified the sub-districts and hamlets such as batchworth, rickmansworth etc.
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Once again thank you Maddie. I noticed in some of the census that there were some Goodman family members at Mill End. If I recall correctly some were named James, Joseph etc and I must admit I did wonder about any connection there with my Goodman family. I found a religious census return for 1851 "The one holy Catholic and apostle Church" at Mill End Rickmansworth. I wrote to the Catholic family History expert Michael Gandy who surprised me by saying that this place of worship would not have been Roman Catholic. He thought it was probably protestant in origin. With the name Henry Goodman I noticed in one of the Rickmansworth directories and also the census that there was a baker called Henry Goodman. He may have appeared in later census. Not sure if he is connected to you in any way.
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Hi there ...yes you were correct George 1844 is the son of James blacksmith ....
Do you know the mothers names of your senior George ? Just incase i stumble upon anything ...
I was reading something other day about an orphanage that moved down from London due to typhus outbreak in 1871 ...it relocated in watford and renamed itself "London Orphan School" it then evacuated and moved again to surrey by WW2...not sure if its of any help ?
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My memory is not good at the best of times. Sorry about that Ray. Besides a possibility of a canal connection I was also wondering about a brewery connection. I noticed that the younger Elizabeth Winfield had a father who was a master brewer. Thinking of the George who lodged at the bear in 1861 who may or may not be my relative. There was a James Goodman in Wargrave who appeared to own a pub also. He was the one who had the son George 1848 who I wondered about. He left a will which is with the National Archives and it appeared he died in 1848. I also read that Goodman and Slater were mentioned re the brewery connection at Rickmansworth. Although it was mentioned that on reflection this could have been written in error. Just little snippets of information that got me thinking.
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Thank you for that. With George senior the only info that I do have is that his father was called James and that info came from his marriage cert. I have no idea if he had any brothers or sisters or even what his mother's name was. I just know that he said twice that he was born in Ricky in 1871 at enlistment and in the 1881 census. I have come across that London Orphanage information before and it is now an impressive residential place in orphanage road Watford. There was another place in Rickmansworth although I am unable to recall exactly where at present.A member of the founder's family has posted information on the internet about it. I can see that you are indeed working hard covering a lot of ground at present. Do you know if you had any relatives in Devon re the person's family who has agreed to be DNA tested.
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I read that about Salters and Goodman brewers ....very interesting read (esp where the landlord instructs loads of beer left outside each day for the locals after he dies )lol ...
Have you tried to use the name "Godman " as i found one of mine in the census with that instead of "Goodman" and apparently it was a form of this name ...might be worth a try .
The george lodging at The Bear ...i thought could be James blacksmiths son ? ...as in 1860 James blacksmith has lost his wife Sarah and by 1861 hes been admitted to the workhouse .Sadly Ann the youngest at 13 ends up in lodgings in uxbridge and i can only find a teenage George at the bear .
Your deffo right i have been working flat out on all this ...its all so interesting .
Im not sure about Devon but i do know from recent contact with other Goodmans on my tree theres some in Cornwall and a recent one in Somerset ...although it could be quite possible as the furthest goodman i have who is the Blacksmiths father Thomas Goodman born 1771 was from Rushall Wiltshire originaly (not far from Devon )...i dont know who his parents are or any siblings or anything ...so im not sure if he created all this in Rickmansworth by himself or wether he was accompanied by his family too ? lol.
It is one of the next things i need to find out as i think its game over for me if i dont .
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Hi
Some "odd" snippets . . . . .
Orphanage = Reeds
http://www.mpritchard.com/reeds.php
and . . . . . (1880)
"In the neighbourhood of Rickmansworth are several Hamlets. At BATCHWORTH, to the south, are extensive Paper mills. At FROGMORE HOUSE, in this Hamlet, an Orphan Home for fifty poor girls, was established by Mr. Joseph Stephenson, and is supported by voluntary contributions."
"Beer left outside pub" = Coach & Horses (Rickmansworth)
http://www.thecoachandhorses.info/history.htm
(Wonderful pub!)
Also says "Salter&Woodman" not Goodman ?!?!
The church between Rickmansworth and Croxley Green
was a maltings before the church frontage was added
http://www.rickmansworthcatholicchurch.org/churchhistory.htm
1820 The Brewhouse at the Gorrells, west of Bury Lane, closed.
1889 Foundation stone laid for Salters High Street brewery
... and of course Uxbridge is on the canal :P
Ray
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Yes that is it Ray, Frogmore house, thank you. I was just pondering on that name today but you saved me the job of looking it up again. Although I can recall that I didn't find any Goodman on the list of names. However I feel that it is good to discuss the existence of these places as it may be helpful to someone in their research. Re the barrel of ale, I saw a victorian display at the Watford Museum some years ago and read a beautiful sad poem re the problem with alcohol and the poorer families. When later reading about the free ale in Rickmansworth it made me wonder if it didn't add to the problem in Rickmansworth in particular. I also read that the brewery had to stop as the gesture was eventually abused by the public and became a problem for the town. Now that you mentioned the name associated with Slater should be Woodman any connection with the Wargrave Goodman and Rickmansworth's pubs, such as the bear and brewery seems unlikely.
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Hi 1783Caz thanks for looking out for stuff for me. I remember reading in Watford Reference Library some years ago about Goodman- Watford /Rickmansworth militia history. I have a feeling that further up your tree there may be an Abraham also. Thomas was mentioned and a reference made to son and father, not sure which was which though. It was quite far back as some of the spelling was old English style. Trouble is I got rid of a lot of my notes when I eventually found George senior's regiment. When I first started looking at my history Watford kept the very old local books in a locked cabinet which you were not permitted to photocopy. Although in latter years they had to deposit them with Hertford Archives. Quite a lot of stuff has now been transcribed I believe.
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ah bless you thanks for info :0
i realy do hope you find your george ...ive yet to fill in all the branches of kids on my grandparents tree ....ive recently found out my william joseph was infact a joseph william he swapped his name round ( crafty little so n so lol ) and his younger brother was a joseph but died soon after birth ..so the parents may of named my william after his dead brother and he swapped it about ....i deffo know now there was a thomas father to george 1844 ...and james 1832 =george henry = joseph= joseph + jospeh william .
i think it will be about 2 weeks time till i start looking at other people off my proper line ...it depends on what info i get back from wiltshire ...but im keeping your notes just incase ..... to see how long youve been doing this for and me 1 month and ive now got loads ..its quite heart wrenching with all the work you have put into it to not have many leads ....very interesting case ...im not going to make it to watford today ...postpone till next week ...( shattered from whipsnade zoo yest lol ) but i will deffo look out for your george and enquire when i eventualy attend ....we have to find him .!!! :)
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Hi
The Henry William Goodman baker was my Uncles first ancestor to live in Ricky, on the Goodman side. :) Henry W was born 1832 in Chesham Bois, he married 1859, in Latimer then moved to Ricky were the kids were born., William c1860, Henry c1862, Frederick c1864, Sarah c1865, Alfred c1867 & Catherine c1871.
I've been looking at the 1841 census & it would appear that most if not all the Goodman's born Ricky are part of Thomas & Zylpha's line. :-\ There were other Goodman's in Ricky prior to 1800, they are listed in the Militia book but none of their descendants seem to have stayed in Ricky for the census although I haven't looked at Watford or surrounding villages.
In case it's of interest, they were, Daniel lived Batchworth, George lived Ricky Town, 2 John's, one a Bricklayer & one a labourer, lived Batcher & Town & Thomas lived Chorleywood & Croxley a servant.
1783caz, hope you enjoyed Whipsnade, haven't been there for years...... ;D
Maddie
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Thanks for your replies Maddie and Caz. I found a list somewhere of non conformist Goodman folk. I think this excludes Roman Catholic. Elizabeth Jemima Goodman, Harriet Goodman and Alice Goodman all County Middlesex. These could be Baptists, Quakers Methodists and latterly Mormons. I know that way back in the East Riding of Yorkshire there were a lot of Goodman folk. Goodmanham was the main centre of pagan worship in the north of England. On WicklowNews.net there is an article whereby a John Goodman takes part in an archeological dig for what appears to be a pagan cross. He is a historian and is on the war memorial committee. No relation of mine as far as I know. This may be of some interest to someone though.
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Hi
Just for notes
1881 same road (Woodcock Hill) as the pub GG(18) was boarding . . . . .
Henry Goodman, 44, b Batchworth
Lucy, 49, b Batchworth
Wm G, 15(13?), b Woodcock Hill
Wm Goodman, 23, b Wendover
Sarah, 25, b Amersham,
Mary A, b Bourne End,
Eliz, 9mo, b Rickmansworth
Ray
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Hi Ray thanks for that. You never know something may connect up at some point. On census RG12/1121 Schedule Number 30 Woodcock Hill,there is a Susannah Goodman, head, age 59 apparently born in Rickmansworth. Elizabeth ?Bristow, lodger. Also a daughter not sure if ?Annie L is Susannah's daughter or Elizabeth's daughter.
In the Irish census 1901 there is a John Winchester head who is a Presbyterian born in ?Scotland and among others living there is Lizzie Goodman Age 36 his niece, who is a Roman Catholic born in Co Cork. Surprisingly Susan Goodman who is his niece too and also born in Co.Cork but she is a Presbyterian. Not sure at present what part of Ireland the census is from as the details were cut to make the census copy smaller.
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Hi Maddie I remember reading in one of the local papers, 1870s-1880s approx, about Lord Ebury taking cattle from Watford back to Rickmansworth. Apparently a cow became crazy and a Frederick Goodman helped to contain the animal. That was the first time I came across a Frederick. Not sure if that Frederick Goodman is any relation to your ancestor.
It is surprising how many Goodman people were living in Ireland around the 1800s. I was surprised to discover that quite a few were actually born there too. Of course this makes it harder for people to trace them due to the Irish poor record keeping. Some of the Christian names that you have mentioned appear to ring a vague bell. In the English census 1891 there is a George Goodman born 1889 in Clonmel Ireland. Noticed this, as Clonmel is where my ancestors lived post Rickmansworth and some are still living there. The head, his father's name is Samuel, there is a Catherine Edward and Jane residence Falmouth Cornwall. There is apparently an Archibold Goodman buried in St Mary's Protestant/Church of Ireland, Church in Clonmel, I think he may be connected with that family.
The guy who has agreed to be DNA swabbed is from Devon, as close as I could get to Cornwall and that part of England. He is not interested in doing his own family history although his people have lived in Devon for many years. Again some of his ancestor's names appear similar to yours. Henry Ernest b.1921 this guy's father and William Henry his grand father b. approx 1890s.
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Hi 1783Caz I should have mentioned that I did have a rest from doing family history for some years as I got so stuck having had a good start initially. Of course family history lay always at the back of my mind and when I met another Rootschat member she got me started again. Not sure whether I should forgive her or praise her. However, when I restarted again I managed to get a bit further as internet etc made things easier The buzz of discovering something is as you know well worth the effort. So I mustn't let you feel too sorry for me. I am very pleased for you and look forward to your further discoveries.
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is it lord Elbury or Edbury or Ebury ? i keep seeing different names ...im slightly confused as one of our Goodmans "Elizabeth (born 1859 ) was a lady in waiting to Lady Elbury or Edbury or Ebury of moor park ...whilst her husband Thomas was a gardener for them ...
I also got told by someone the other week when i mentioned this George Goodman thread that they said it could be quite difficult to find records in ireland as a lot of them got burnt in the uprising ...
Have you managed to trace junior georges sisters ? Mary Katherine ?
Would it be possible that she removed her 1st name and used a "C" instead of a "K" for Catherine ?
Goodman Catherine 14 Watford 3a 386
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Hiya
Ebury.
Moor Park, a very beautiful house.
I'll try later to post a pic of the ceiling, stunning.
"Some" Irish records burnt? - I believe so.
Is this a death reg? if so, year?
Goodman Catherine 14 Watford 3a 386
(Answered it myself - 1894 Q1)
? 1891 RG12 1118 109 page5
(mis-transcribed as Godman?)
Catholic Girls School 64 Queens Road Watford
Catherine Goodman 10 Ireland
Birth Reg?
1879 Q3 Goodman Mary Katherine Watford 3a 447
Ray
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Yes I did try tracing junior George's sister Mary although I didn't look at Catherine from Watford. Mary K was born 1879 as I obtained that birth cert. Ancestry.com has her birth year rounded up as it may have also done with her father George Goodman, 1850 instead of 1848. I suppose as their mother was also called Mary she may have used her child's second name Katherine (Catherine). I did try looking at children's homes around Watford for the name Mary. I thought as the mother put one boy, junior George, into a home she may have put Mary k into a girls home also. However Mary could have died in Ireland and that would have been another matter as you know with the destroyed records. My cousin tried searching in Ireland but hasn't come up with anything. Luckily we found a little memorial card in my parents house for Teresa Gertrude, who is interred in the Rock of Cashel in 1888. She died with her grandmother Margaret McCarthy. Lets hope May K didn't die that same year also as Mary Goodman nee McCarthy lost her husband and another daughter Margaret Phillis that same year. As I mentioned before Margaret Phillis is buried at Chorleywood Road Cemetery Rickmansworth, in another plot although there is a Mr Fox buried there now.
The history of the (Grosvenor) Lord Ebury's family is very interesting and Rickmansworth's Museum had quite a lot about it at one stage. The last chap connected with the Moor Park family sold up to the Lever Brothers and went to live in Japan. I thought I saw a George Goodman living or working there not sure which census that was. I know that Lord Ebury supported protestantism and I know that some Goodman families were also non-conformist that is why I wondered about religious groups. He may or may not have been more sympathetic to mixed faith marriages etc. Mary and George could have kept Mary's R/C faith or both their beliefs secret. He use to ensure that his staff attended church at Northwood, where he is now buried. The Bury and its grounds were purchased by Lord Ebury in approx 1873/1874 and I presume that also included Bury Farm Cottage. I then presume he was my great grand father's employer/landlord as he was living there at the birth of his first child Mary K in 1879. Trying to get manorial records from the Grosvenor estate is another matter.
Wow re your Elizabeth working directly with the Ebury family it is great family history story to have. The family were apparently very supportive with the London children during the war and they invited children to the estate.
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Hi
For your notes . . . . .
If you search 1911 for
Albert Goodman 33 bRickmansworth
(living hillingdon West)
you get a very helpful list (un-indexed coz crossed out) confirming the make-up of a (Rickmansworth) Goodman family.
Ray
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Hi Ray i think that goodman family thats on that one is my Great Grandfathers children and his wife who is widowed ... i dont know why their names have been entered on that form ...maybe it was a mistake ...it appears Louisa gristwood herself filled it out herself ...perhaps she wasnt quite with it or knew what she was doing . :)
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Hi
. . . . . and it is a nice way to confirm your research.
R
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Yes Ray, Mary Katherine 1879 Watford is the correct birth. On the actual birth cert it confirms born Batchworth Rickmansworth etc. I could understand transcribing one detail incorrectly re St Catherine's but several seem a bit doubtful. Such as first name, surname, the place of birth etc. On the other hand it does seem a coincidence to have another R/C Goodman around an area whereby there were supposed to be few R/C.
1783Caz it is amazing just how many ancestors you have managed to find keep up the good work. If you keep going you may find that you are from a Goodman Pedigree such as Goodman of Blaston and Easton. William of Easton was descended from Goodmans of Cheshire. These chaps have the coat of arms with an eagle displayed with two heads. The family were the owners of the manor of Blaston and Bradley. I think one of the descendents Richard ended up in Melbourne displaying the coat of arms on buildings etc. Another Pedigree not to be sniffed at appear to be Goodman of Northampton.
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Hi BGoodman ...thanks for the info ...would be great to get there and find outmore in the goodman line if pedigree but unfortunatley im now stuck on Thomas Goodman who married Zilpah ...Ive found he come to Rickmansworth from Wiltshire ....looking at a history on a wiltshire website it reads how some rich person bought all the land and flattened the lot .Leaving everyone homeless and jobless ...this is how he may of ended up in Rickmansworth ..but i cant see if he come with other family members or by himself or why he chose Rickmanswrth ? Someone mentioned Goodmans in Rickmansworth pre 1800s maybe they might be related as to why he moved to that location ? I dont know where to look ? at a brick wall now lol
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Hi 1783Caz I tried looking at The National Archives site and put in Thomas Goodman 1600-1800 and lots of Goodman wills came up. There is a mention of different areas also. Have you tried looking for stuff that way. There was a Thomas and several others. I also saw a Francis Goodman although I seldom see that first name. I wondered about the name Francis as it was my grand father Hubert's second name. It seemed a strange name for the time as he was born in 1883. If you have already got back as far as Zelpah you have indeed covered some distance. Don't be disheartened although I know it is awful to feel stuck. Keep up the good work.
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Hi thanks for the info ...i have spent all afternoon looking into where thomas come from (Rushall wiltshire ) on a marraige form it read "russell" perhaps it was mispelt as theres nowhere in wiltshire called russell but couldve been rushsal as well...I read it was in the parish of Pewsey at the time ...Theres loads of goodmans in the somerset/swindon areas in 1700s all related i think ...but its wether mine connect to them ...i think i will have to try and get thomas birth certificate when i find out where to obtain it from in order to get his parents name ...might also be worth my while cancelling with ancestry and joining national archives instead ...everyone seems to get better results from there :)
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Hi 1783Caz I probably discovered what you already know re Thomas born 1766 in Wiltshire. Thomas died in West Hyde Rickmansworth on 2nd Nov 1851 he was 85. Buried on 6th Nov 1851. I didn't come across the name of the place that you were looking for. I read an article about Ramsbury and Holy Cross Church which was medieval. Would the Wiltshire and Swindon History Centre not be able to help you. I noticed in their archives that there was a Stephen Goodman who had Administration Bond stuff in 1780s and to me it appeared to be his will. In that will it may mention other people. It also mentions dean and Salisbury. I guess that was the bishop of Salisbury. I read somewhere about Sir Stephen Arthur Goodman Major-General. He may have been related to that family re his social standing etc.
There is some history with Goodman members and high positions within the church. As early as 1548 John Goodman was Dean of Wells. 1617 Re Bishop of Hereford, Godfrey Goodman who was bishop of Gloucester was elected but declined the appointment. Goodman 1624 Bishops of Gloucester. Godfrey Goodman, dean of Rochester; his see was sequestrated in 1640, and he died a papist in 1640. The see was vacant for five years. He was a nephew of Gabriel dean of Westminster. Gabriel, among other things founded a Grammer School, Ruthin etc. Not sure if that is a place. Christopher Goodman puritan devine (protestant) was forbidden to preach and deprived of the benefice of Alford for non conformity. He was visited on his deathbed at Chester by Archbishop Ussher.
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hi there ...thanks for more info ...im engrossed with the wills part that you mentioned ...hunting hunting hunting ...
i went over to the lovely watford museum today to try and find our James Goodman who i assumed died in the workhouse ...they only have the survivng records of births /deaths in there and couldnt find him sigh ....but what they did tell me was very interesting ...when people died in there they were buried at Watford cemetery across the road...with only a wooden plaque that wouldve deteriorated over time being as no family to pay for a headstone ...what the people in the workhouse did was etch their names into the bricks in the old courtyard of the administration building ...i managed to get there today and although getting strange looks from people looking at brickwork ...i did see some of the remaining names etched into the brick and by chance found a Gristwood & took photo just incase ... not a totaly wasted journey as i found it quite amazing to see these names ...you get a right feel for it when seen ...long live shrodells :)
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Yes, 1783Caz I am aware of those etchings and took some photos some years ago. Like you I was completely fascinated by the whole workhouse thing. There was an old oak tree which was over a hundred years old in that courtyard. It has fairly recently died and was taken away. The inmates use to exercise around it and I was quite sad to see it go. Amazing you managed to find a Gristwood among those etchings. The Hertford Archives should have some details of burials even if there is no longer anything to mark the site. I looked up the Rickmansworth union burial board and found my great grand father George Goodman and his daughter. I expect Watford union has its own burial board although I believe that they came under the same umbrella. I asked once if the workhouse deaths would also come under this board and I was told that they would. Even if you ring up Hertford local history/studies section they will let you know what they do have. I have recently read a book from the popular midwife series called Shadows of the Workhouse. This was interesting as it gives some insight into how the workhouse operated as it remained unchanged in its practise for many years. I wonder also as your ancestors may have moved into another area from Wiltshire would there be settlement information/paperwork at Hertford.
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i have to say you realy do know your stuff ...i shall contact the ones youve mentioned ... :)
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Hi 1783Caz I only wish I did know a bit more but thank you for your comment. I mentioned those other Goodman guys such as Gabriel and Godfrey as later on when you discover more about the watford union workhouse there may or may not be some connection there. I thought I read somewhere that a Godfrey Goodman was invited to be the chaplin at the workhouse. Not sure if that Godfrey guy was an ancestor of those two also. It seems a coincidence to have the same name and also the same leaning towards religion. When I looked up the parish records on the national archives I put in a search as follows. I put "rickmansworth parish records" 1653-1974. When I put the inverted commas around the search term I seemed to get somewhere. The result was Hertfordshire Archives DP85. I clicked on that, then on incumbent then on service of the church. At the bottom of that section block I got register of burials (off.Acc546) D85/1/50 1886-1925. I then got help to order the details on line as I had the death cert by then. You may want different years etc. There are other stuff there that may be useful to you also.
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I decided to take the bull by the horns and order that 1894 death cert for Catherine Goodman, Watford. It may or may not be the daughter of George Goodman my ggrandfather. Although I know that his daughter's name was Mary Katherine born July 1879 at Batchworth, Rickmansworth, not Ireland. I am however hoping that the address on the cert confirms some connection with St Catherine's R/C school at 60 Queen's Road Watford. What with George junior staying at the boys home perhaps Mary K also got put into a R/C home/school. Of course it is probable that there could be a R/C Catherine Goodman from Ireland staying there and Mary K may not have been placed there at all. At least with George Junior at 58 Queen's road it actually stated born in Rickmansworth which made it more probable.
It may be helpful for some rootschat folk to know that not only has the Registration office moved from Clarendon Road Watford but you are also now unable to obtain archive certs on site. I obtained a form from Watford Registry office based near to the Town Hall and sent it to Hatfield with a cheque. There are other options to order it online or by phone and credit card. The DNA of my kind male Goodman volunteer has now reached USA, lets hope it bears some fruit.
1783 Caz it appears likely that James Goodman born approx 1801 who married in 1826 and who died aged 78, Watford 3a 265 (Freebmd) are one and the same. He was in the workhouse in 1871 as you probably know. At Hafield Archives he may come under Watford or even Rickmansworth Union Burial Board as he came from Rickmansworth. When I had the burial info for George Senior I then contacted Rickmansworth Council re the cemetrey plot info and they were extremely helpful. I expect you would get similar help from Watford.
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Hi
Good luck with the cert you have ordered for Catherine, it does look as if it could be your George's sister. Just had another look at the 1891 census & 64 Queens Road is the Catholic School were Catherine is staying. It does appear that 58 Queens Road was the boys school & 64 the girls.
I noticed that there is a Harrington boy born Africa with George at 58 & a Harrington girl born Africa with Catherine at 64, they must be brother & sister. !!
Maddie
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Thank you for that Maddie and sorry but I did get my numbers mixed up re Queen's road. It is good of you to check that info out for me as I would not have noticed the African children's similar surnames etc. Also I meant to say Hertford not Hatfield re archives.
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hi,
I am glad i just read your last message as i was planning to go to the registry office to get some certificates, i had no idea that it had been moved. I hope you do have some success with katherines certificate. I wonder if his wife had returned to Ireland with just hubert for a reason, and do you know when they actually went, was it after George had died?
Regards
Jackie
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Hi
I'm happy to help with any info that might be useful for you, only wish I could do more. ;)
Jackie, that's a good question re when Mary & Hubert returned to Ireland, I was going to ask that myself. I found them both very easily on the Irish 1911 but had no luck on the 1901, either Ireland or UK.
Maddie
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Thank you Jackie and Maddie and I must say I am quite touched by your kindness in trying to help me. Unfortunately I am not aware of when Mary Goodman (nee McCarthy) went back to Ireland. It appears that Hubert, my grand father, started his army career at approx aged 18 in 1901. In his list of campaigns it states home August 1901-1902 then he appears to have gone to South Africa. Not sure if home meant in England or in Ireland. Under next akin it lists mother at Dillon Street Clonmel and elder brother George in London. Although underneath it also mentions wife's details. The writing re details of next akin looks similar which may suggest these details were written in retrospect. Hubert didn't marry until 1911, after the 1911 census. In the Ireland 1901 Census the only Goodman family that appeared for Clonmel were living with a John Winchester at Mitchell Street Clonmel. He was a hotel Proprietor from Scotland, a Presbyterian. Strangely, re religious beliefs, he had two Goodman nieces living with him a Lizzie and a Susan one a Presbyterian and one a R/C. Both girls born in Cork City. Not sure if those census details were correct or not. I did search for George junior in London in either 1901 or 1911 and found one with his 1881 birth year working as a hotel porter, born in Ireland, not Rickmansworth! In 1923 June there was a George Goodman aged 42, (my chap would be 41years, birthday July), on the Caronia Ship Port Liverpool England. He appeared to be working on the ship and he was there again in July. I also tried, without success, looking up the 1901 census for Cashel Co Tipperary as I wondered if Margaret McCarthy, mother of Mary Goodman was still in William street where she was with her grandchild Theresa Gertrude when she died there in 1888. I am amazed to see how many Goodman names were in Ireland, mainly the north, in the 1901 census 364 of them if I am interpreting it correctly.
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hi there thanks for the more info on my goodmans ...i will look into it more this week as been bit busy to do anything lately ...Your George certainly got out and about ...i hope the certificate you have ordered is the one and gives a new lead :)
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I don't suppose this is of any relevance but thought I would post it as it might help if you could find the missing George Jnr........
In the unassisted passenger list for Victoria Australia is a George Goodman aged 31 in 1912, he sailed on the Irishman from Liverpool to Melbourne.
If you do a Google search for the SS Irishman there's some interesting info, apparently the 1912 sailing was quarantined in Melbourne because of an outbreak of measles. Might be worth a posting on the Oz board, someone might have more info. He probably isn't your George but no harm in trying to find out.
Did Hubert join the militia in England or Ireland. ???
Maddie
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hi just out of interest how did your kind male goodman DNA thing reach USA ? just curious as one of our goodmans moved there during ww2 ...prob not same but still curious how you got to it ? so interesting :)
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Thanks Maddie and Caz for your comments. Re my grand father's Hubert's regiment he was in the Leinster Regiment 100 foot and I have all his records for that. It is written on his attestation papers, in answer to whether he was in the army before, the word "only" the Royal Irish 41, no dates unfortunately. Looked that up and it appears to be Victorian Forts Artillery. The 41 appears to be department or company. The Coast Brigade 1891 was reorganized and disbanded eventually. The Victorian forts were to be manned by the Garrison Artillery supplemented by volunteer artillery. Re the number 41 found little info for later years leading up to 1900s. Fort Grange 1890 May No 34,41 Batteries Southern division GA R.A (A.l). Saw a photo of Fort Grange in Portsmouth which was interesting as it appears quite intact. Did a beta search on National Archives for Hubert Goodman and really just got the information that I already had re his medals etc. Not sure where he enlisted for the Royal Irish as he didn't seem to refer to it as being in the army as such. Maybe he was a volunteer or a cadet. He would have been about 18years in 1901. I will look again about that George that you mentioned Maddie and have a think. With the DNA I got the chap in England to swab but the swabs go to the USA because that is where the company is based. Familytreedna.
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I have posted on Tipperary Ireland forum re my grand father Hubert Goodman, son of George Goodman (senior). I received a reply re using the 1901 Irish Census. Putting for example the letter G for the surname and H for the first name and the age 18years, this gave me quite a lot of census detail on military barracks etc. It also gives the religion of the person. Having found a G with a H of an 18 year old male, who was C/E, I was further able to discount that as I know Hubert and his mother were R/C. This info may be of use to someone trying to research in Ireland.
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In one of the Dictionary's of National Biography I found another interesting Goodman, although unrelated to my research on George Goodman. Goodman, Cardell of Cardonnell (1649?-1699), adventurer; B.A. St John's College, Cambridge, 1670: page of the back stairs to Charles 11; afterwards an actor, winning his success as Julius Caesar and Alexander; pardoned by James 11 for a highway Robbery; paramour of the Duchess of Cleveland, but fined for an attempt to poison her children; expert at ombre; bribed by friends of Fenwick not to turn evidence against him, 1697; died in France. What ordinary lives us other Goodman people live eh!
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Hi 1783 Caz did you see Keith's ancestors on google search there is a mention near the end of the page re Thomas and Zilpah. The heading is Keith's Ancestors. It may or may not be of interest to you as it may be info you that you already know.
www.keru.co.uk/FH/Keith's%20Ancestors/at01/at01_003.htm
Occupation: Labourer, Sawyer. ... 60 Thomas GOODMAN. ... Thomas died in West Hyde, Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England on 2 Nov 1851, he was 85.
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hi there ...yes thanks .... ive seen keiths ancestors and already have that info and zilpahs parents ...ive been sent some militia papers with goodmans on it pre 1800 that im just looking at and theres a Thomas on it from 1780 ...and previous to that theres John (1769 ),George (1778) and a Daniel (1778) . (im not sure what this list means as ive never heard/seen of it before and not sure what it points out ? )
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Hi 1783 Caz on the National Archives the person beta search will no longer exist in September. If you do want to chase up any of those names on their site it is better to do it as soon as you can.
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Hi both
Caz, those Goodman's you have from the militia list are the ones I mentioned in a previous post. The Militia List itself is a compilation of men who were of the age to be called up for service should any conflict suddenly arise & more men were needed. Individual Parishes drew up these lists from about 1757 until about 1800.
I wouldn't think many of them ever joined the Militia but they are a good reference to the families living in the parishes prior to any census.
Maddie
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Hi thanks to you Ray, Caz and Maddie re BMI details of ?Mary Katherine (Catherine) daughter of George Goodman. I sent for and now received the death cert that Ray first mentioned. I am 95% sure that it is the correct cert. It stated that father George Goodman farm laborer (deceased). That is correct as her father died in 1888. It gave the address as St Vincents Convent Percy Road Watford and she was aged 14 years, (1879). I believe the original girls home had moved from Queen's Road by then. She died from Cerebral Meningitis on 16th of Feb 1894, poor lass. Strange that her mother was not mentioned at all. There was a Martha (?Wilkes) present. A million thanks to you all for your kind support.
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Hi
I am pleased that you have found Catherine but saddened by yet another loss of your Goodman family. Perhaps her mothers details just weren't mentioned on the death cert but may have been recorded at the school.
I have been trying to find Martha Wilkes on the census but can't spot her, was it definitely Wilkes. !!
If only you could find where George Jnr went.............
Maddie
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;D
I'm having doubts now about Catherine in the 1891 "home".
Something doesn't add up for me (sorry)
Born Catherine 1879 Ireland ?
Mind you, the building has a wonderful entrance.
Must try to find a map with the road layout prior to it being built.
Ray
(ignore me I'm thinking out aloud)
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Thank you Ray and Maddie for your replies. Re the Martha present at Catherine's death, it is very difficult to make out the writing therefore I am not sure at all that it is Wilkes. I will try and get some other opinions on what the surname might be. I know what you mean Ray re uncertainties and I also feel that I can not be 100% sure although there is a strong possibility, especially with the deceased father named George. Also bearing in mind that it was fairly unusual to have a R/C Goodman in the area. It is also the second time as George (junior) Goodman was found in the boys R/C school also. When Hubert enlisted in the army he gave his mother as his first next akin and said that he also had an elder brother George in London. I did wonder if the George who worked as a porter in Paddington, in the 1901 census, was George (junior), although it also stated that he was born in Ireland in 1881. It was known in my family that my grand father Hubert tried putting a notice in a newspaper in an attempt to find George later on. I have also never managed to discover which newspaper he put that notice in.
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Hi everyone,
I have just looked at Hertfordshire names online site, i put in catherine goodman and it came up with there is an obituary in the local paper for feb.1894. I wondered if anyone is going over to hertford archives this week if they could actually look at the newspaper article as it may contain fresh information. There is also an obituary for a george goodman aged 8 months that died in 1883 from Rickmansworth. again that could have something, especially as to whom placed the article, did ag labs have money to spend on placing death notices.
I look forward to another update. Caz have you got any further with your Goodmans?
Bye for now
jackie
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Well done Jackie on finding that obit for Catherine, if no one is going to HALS it can be ordered on line, cost is £6 for a copy. Interesting to find who did place it in the paper, I don't think any of my ag labs could afford an obit. ;)
There is also a George Goodman in the 1911 living in Friern Barnet who looks interesting. The 1911 is free on Ancestry at the moment, only have to register as a guest........ :)
Can you post the part of the cert that has Martha's name on it, if it's a local name I might recognize it. !!!!!
Maddie
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Morning!
If "Martha Wilkes" was a matron/nurse/teacher then she may have been "transient" and not there at the census before/after the death.
There is a Martha Wilkes 39 Schoolmistress in Hampstead 1901 1 Mutrix Rd
A house full of Schoolmistresses.
Ray
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Hi
Others from HALS maybe worth looking at in case of "hidden" facts . . . . .
(HALS search Goodman 1850-1910)
Watford Petty Sessions : Drunk and disorderly (George Goodman)
Hertfordshire Mercury page 3 10/09/1881
Death notice of Frederick Goodman. Died 18th August aged 29
Watford Leader page 8 22/08/1893 (Croxley Green / Frederick Goodman)
Deaths : Death notice of Priscilla Ann Goodman. Died 2nd April aged 37
Watford Leader page 8 10/04/1894
Watford Petty Sessions : Breaking windows at girl's school
Watford Leader page 8 05/06/1894
Obituary of Charles Goodman : Died 20 September 1894
Hertfordshire Mercury page 8 29/09/1894
The one I liked tho . . . .
Watford Petty Sessions : Riding Asleep (Wm Goodman)
Watford Leader page 8 11/12/1894
Ray
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If any one is visiting Watford, according to Chris on Herts Genealogy Watford Library has the Watford Leader 1893 to 1897 on microfiche.
At times I wish I was still local........ ;)
Ray, I noticed that Martha Wilkes in Hampstead, she does look like a probable.!
Maddie
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hi there ,just reading through and hope this catherine is the right one on certificate ...
Not had a chance lately to do anymore goodman stuff being the school hols ...
i have got a book some where wih something on the girls school will try and sort it out and see what info is on it .
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I am away at present and the Internet is a bit patchy here. A big thank u to you all for your efforts. Looking forward to chasing up on some of your info when I return.
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just bagged a good bargain ..the book of watford and ordnance survey map of rickmansworth back in 1800s ... i noticed before that you mentioned elsewhere that your grandfathers place would be submerged under water ...im not so sure as the place thats now the lake thingy was an old gravel pit ? im trying to find eastbury cottages that no longer exists...theis book is wonderful :)
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Bury farm cottage is numbered in a map which is where the gravel pit/lake is at present. I was wondering if the person present at Catherine's death could have been another boarder. In the earlier census i remember seeing a similar ? french name beginning with w. I guess the R/C sisters could have paid for the obituary as I haven't found any for the others..
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Bury Farm Cottage?
Would you remind us (I mean me >:( ) of the info surrounding ?
The area is "surrounded" by flooded gravel pits.
R
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Acquadrome in Ricky, I would guess bury lake as there are several there. I read info on the sale of moor park. There was a discription of the inside of the cottage, maybe 1923, still away therefore haven't got the info to hand. A librarian in Watford many years ago told me that the cottage was where the gravel pit and now part of the lakes are.
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Hi, arrived back on Monday and ordered that obituary for Catherine Goodman on Monday pm. Well done jtas on finding it for me. Should have relooked at Maddie's comment before ordering it though as it is estimated to take 10 days to process. Hadn't twigged that I could have viewed and probably copied The Watford Leader at Watford Library for half the cost. Speaking of cost I received the result of the DNA, which the Goodman gentleman from Devon (originally) was kind enough to contribute. His DNA just like my belated father's DNA did not match any other Goodman names. His DNA appears to match a lot more different surname people on the basic 12 markers. I guess the company can only match with what they have received from others. I realized from experience that it doesn't pay to try and upgrade another person's surname either. For now I am giving up on DNA, I will wait until and if a high marker Goodman match comes up and then I will reconsider.
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Hi
Sorry to hear you had no luck with the DNA. I'm also away just now but am looking forward to hearing what you discover from the Obit for Catherine. 10 days seems an awful long time, fingers crossed it will be worth the wait. :)
Maddie
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hi sorry to hear about the DNA results ...such a shame :(
just popped in for a quick question ...was there a mention of a school teacher that wasnt from rickmansworth /watford area ? was she with George senior when he died ?
i tried looking back in the thread but cant find it ...
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Thank you for your comments and your efforts. Yes it is a pity about the DNA although it makes me wonder why my dad had only two 12 marker matches and the other (Devon) Goodman chap had pages of matches. Although it is true that for him there were no Goodman matches either. There was also no matches above the basic 12 marker test. It might be worth me reconsidering a Jewish or Russian connection. I know that in 1871 there is a George Goodman naturalized in the Archives although that is unlikely to be him. My ggrandfather joined the army 10th May 1871, where he said he was born in Rickmansworth. With his father's name as James it is also unlikely for him to be the son of another nationality. To answer your question 1783Caz, when George Senior my ggrandfather died there was an Elizabeth Winfield in attendance. I know that in the 1881 census there were two ladies in the Watford and Rickmansworth areas one a younger person and another 48 year old lady. There is no occupation as such listed.
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Trying to attach a copy of Mary Katherine's (Catherine) death cert. Doing just the part that displays the person in attendance. The first attempt failed perhaps because the image may have been too big. Please bear with me as I haven't tried doing this before.
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Hi (Caz)
To get the positions of Killingdown and Parrotts Farms
Streetmap.co.uk search for "Dugdales" (only 1 real answer)
You will see Killingdown just north and Parrotts (now Close) just south.
R
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Hi
Just a note to add to the pile
Elizabeth Winfield 23
1891 in Watford Union Workhouse/Infirmary
then following is listed 4 children
John Joseph 7
Benjamin George 5
Mary Ann 3
Henry Thomas 1
If GG ended up there then she may have befriended/known him?
Possible Marriage?
1886 Dec Berkhampstead 3a 791
Elizabeth NOAH / George Winfield
Ray
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Hi
With regard to the Martha on Catherine's death cert, I would say it does look to be Wilkes. She may well have been a teacher at the time, possibly the Obit may shed some light on her.
Maddie
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Hi maddie,
hope you are well, i think you are right that the surname is probably Wilkes, and there is that Martha wilkes on the 1891 census as a teacher in Hampsted. Hopefully, bgoodman will receive the obituary very soon and it contains a new lead. I have been looking at the Elizabeth Winfield, she certainly seemed to have had a hard life, on the 1901 census she is back in the work house, now a widow with her daughter mary aged 13, henry aged 11 and another son, william aged 8. I dont know where her husband George was in 1891 and two of her sons john joseph and benjamin are not with her in 1901. If she was the Elizabeth Noah who married a George Winfield in 1886, she may have only known George Goodman for a short while because he died in 1888.
Look forward to hearing any further information
Bye for now
jackie
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Hi Jackie
I'm good thanks, hope all is well with you. Yes, not much doubt that it is Martha Wilkes.
I've also just been looking at the Elizabeth Winfield that Ray found but I don't think she is the one that married George in 1886, these two seem to be together in Berko on the 1891. From Family Search the children with her in 1891 had a father Thomas but I'm still looking for him. :) Will let you know if I find any more just in case she could have been the Elizabeth who was with George Goodman at his death. :-\
Maddie
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hi,
I have found an Elizabeth phoebie Rivett born 1862 in watford and was married in 1882 to a thomas winfield. Her father was Benjamin Rivett From the way the children are named, i think she is more likely to be the Elizabeth we are looking for. On the 1901 census her age is 40years old, so that fits in with the correct birth date. I still havent found Thomas, they must have been reunited as the last child was only 8 years old in 1901.
Bye for now
Jackie.
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Hi
I agree with you Jackie, Elizabeth Phoebe Rivett does look like the correct wife for Thomas Winfield. Thomas is in lodgings at 193 High Street Watford on the 1891, indexed as T Winfield, he dies in 1893 which accounts for Elizabeth being a widow on the 1901. I haven't yet been able to track Elizabeth after 1901. ???
However, I have discovered that Elizabeth nee Rivett has a connection to the Gristwood family in Ricky......... As we know James Goodman, son of James & Ann, married Louisa Gristwood & all the Gristwood's in Ricky are related.
Elizabeth P Rivett's parents were Benjamin & Maria nee Batchelor, they married in 1862. Maria Batchelor was the daughter of Thomas & Jane nee Gristwood. Thomas & Jane married 6 March 1842 in Ricky, 2 months before Maria was christened. Jane died in 1850 & I'm not sure what happened to Thomas but their 3 children, Maria, Elizabeth & Mary Ann are with their Grandmother Ann Batchelor in 1851 in Mill End. Indexed as Bakhlor on Anc.
So, Jane Gristwood was Elizabeth Winfield nee Rivetts grandmother.
If this was the Elizabeth Winfield present at George Goodman's death is it possible that the Gristwood connection is relevant. :-\
Added, I can't figure out who Thomas Therd?? is on the 1881 living with the Rivett's in Watford. ??? Any ideas........
Maddie
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Wow you folks blow my mind making such connections etc and it is very good of you to put the effort in. I had another look at George's death cert it states- under when and where died- 18th March 1888 Bury Farm Rickmansworth. Therefore he may have died on the actual farm rather than in the cottage. It is also the first time that his occupation is written as Cowman opposed to Labourer, General Labourer or Agricultural Labourer. I imagined that the Elizabeth Winfield may have worked on the farm perhaps witnessing the event, if it was a sudden occurrence, although Fibroid Phthisis may have bothered him for some time. A younger Elizabeth could use words such as Cowman although that may have been all he was capable of doing near the end of his life. It also states in attendance which on the other hand may suggest an older person, rather than just saying present at death. This wording may or may not be significant. The death was registered on the day after and I wonder by whom.
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Hi
Don't know if all this is getting us any where but we are trying..... :)
Unfortunately it still is all conjecture on whom the Elizabeth Winfield was at George's death but at least with this one there is a connection to Ricky & Batchworth. Dare I say, also to the other Goodman's in Batchworth. :-\
Trouble with our death certs, they don't have enough info on them, do they. George died of TB so was probably ill for a while which could be why Elizabeth was in attendance nursing him. Did she not register the death then............
Pity there wasn't a yearly census to have helped us keep track of these folks. ;D
Maddie
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Martha Wilkes . . . . .
Column 7 on the DC where it says Martha Wilkes.
I thought/assumed it said where Ms Goodman lived.
It's not, it is where Martha lived!?
It says so "on the tin".
Or doesn't it?
Ray
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Hi Ray
Yes, the death cert does say where Martha lived so George's death cert should state where the informant lived............... ???
Maddie
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Yes you are so right Maddie and Ray re the address of Elizabeth on the death cert. Thank you for that and it makes me realize how something like that can be easily missed. That's my excuse anyhow. It therefore more or less confirms that the Elizabeth or a member of her family must have worked on the farm. She may or may not be related to the 39 year old dead (senior) George. In the 1881 census I found an Elizabeth who was 10 years old, born in Watford, living at 6, Birches Yard, Watford. She would be about 17 years in 1888. Her mother was a charwomen named Hannah, and her father was William G Winifred, a Brewers labourer. Interesting to know what Hannah's maiden name was. The other older Elizabeth Winfield that I wondered about was born in Rickmansworth and doesn't appear to be employed, occupation- labourer's wife. Her husband was a labourer in the gasworks. The address is ?Rickmansworth. I found these on the 1881 census with Findmypast. I haven't looked at the original census myself. Thank you also Ray for the info that you previously listed re the wrong doings of the Goodmans. The asleep while driving issue made me chuckle. I marvel at how you manage to obtain such details as anything I have come across was just by chance. Hopefully some of those Goodman people will at least be related to one of us Hertfordshire Goodmans. Sad to note how some of those Winfield people ended their days also.
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Is the address in column 7 on George's death cert Bury Farm as well as where he died. Is there no informants name on it. ??
Maddie
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Yes maddie, I hadn't noticed that before, I am not doing very well am I. Under column 7 it lists Signature, description and residence of informant. Written there is Elizabeth Winfield in attendance Bury Farm Rickmansworth. Presume George still lived in the actual cottage as column 1 just states when and where died, which is written Bury Farm, Rickmansworth.
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Ummmm, so, as we first thought, Elizabeth Winfield is looking after George & it does seem to be at the farm.
Derrrr, still doesn't help with which actual Elizabeth it really is. :-\
More thinking needed.......
Maddie :)
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Sorry ray just recently read your am message re posting other columns of Catherine's death cert. Hope it works trying to post it for ages.
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Hi
I wonder.
As families tended to stay in areas . . . . . Dr Cox.
There is a more (very) recent instance of Dr Cox.
(I'll research quietly)
R
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Hi
An aside. . . . .
1881 Geo + Mary + Mary K
The uninhabited dwelling next door, "Frogmore Villa" ,was opposite The (White) Bear (Batchworth)
junction (now) Harefield Road
So that confirms then census round started at The Bear and ended almost same spot (1 dwelling "past")
R
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Re George (junior) brother of my Grand father Hubert. On Hubert's army attestation papers 1901/2 he listed George as his second next akin.
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OOPS hadn't finished trying to attach a copy of the next akin details. Not sure what the -5 next to London means. Also whether that is a person's initials next to it or is it their rank or is it the regiment that George may have been in. There was a thought in my family that George (Junior) may have been in the army also.
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Hi
No not "5", the top of the 5 is the bottom of the "l" from "Clonmel"?
Mary Ann with "?" amended by me = "Husband"
R
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hi all,
next of kin for Hubert was mary mccarthy of 5 dillon street clonmel, George elder brother and then mary anne with husband.
When did Hubert get married, have you got his marriage certificate , bgoodman?
jackie
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Hi
I have just discovered Hubert's Pension record on Anc, indexed as Herbert born Herefordshire...... Hey ho. ;)
Some info that might help, he attested into the Leinster Regiment 24 Aug 1901 at Clonmel aged 18. At this time he was already in the 4 Royal Irish so presumably Mum Mary & Hubert must have returned to Ireland before 1901.
He served in South Africa & Mauritius then joined the British Expedition Force in 1914, served in France until 1917.
In answer to your question Jackie, Hubert married Mary Ann Steffernan 8th Oct 1911 in Clonmel. That's probably why her name is added at the bottom of "next of kin".
Hope you have all this info bgoodman, if not let me know.
Maddie
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wow great work !!! how exciting its getting lol
hi there being as louisa gristwood is my great grandmother ...i thought id seen elizabeth winfields name ...im sure its on papers sent to me via a distant cousin that ive not yet looked at properly...this cousin is more connected to the gristwood side and has done loads ...i see if i can dig the bundle out and find out anything ... :)
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Well done Maddie, I really do not know how you do it. Amazing how you managed to discover that name written as Herbert instead of Hubert. I didn't have that part of Hubert's info although I have all the rest of it. His wife was Mary Ann Heffernan and bless her she was not a pretty woman. She was, however, extremely well liked, described also as a saint. I did try and follow up some info on the Royal Irish also although I didn't find anything very significant. I wondered about the connection to Goodman Gristwood and Winfield with 1783Caz in mind. Maybe 1783Caz will be proven right re her previous comment that the Batchworth Goodmans may all be related.
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Hi
Sorry I got Mary Ann's name wrong, the writing is a little hard to read. ;D Was it just the marriage info you don't have or any other info, such as where Hubert served, with the dates & his conduct sheet.
I had forgotten Louisa Gristwood was caz's line, will be interesting to see if there is any more info on Elizabeth Winfield.
I'm pretty sure that all the Batchworth Goodmans are related. :D
caz, any idea on how Jane & Louisa Gristwood are connected :)
Maddie
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im confused who im trying to find out on lol ... whos jane ? ....Blimey im looking at gristwood stuff now and gristwoods married gristwoods !!! looks to me like all the gristwoods out watford now are prob all the same gristwoods now lol.
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Hi
You're confused? 147 replies on this thread.
Maddie n I were only saying earlier that we could do with a proper summary of what is now known/accepted.
Howabout it Caz/BG?
Ray
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Hi
Good fun this "int it". :) Jane Gristwood was the daughter of Thomas & Lucy, christened 14 Apr 1822 Ricky. It actually says Thomas & Mary on Family Search but her name is Lucy on the census, other children also born to the same couple.
Jane was the grandmother of Elizabeth Winfield nee Rivett.
Maddie
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Sorry Maddie I re looked at my grand dad Hubert's stuff and there is a mention of him being called Herbert instead of Hubert. My brother paid for a researcher to discover all of my grand dad's info some time ago and he did refer to Herbert. At that stage I had already got the conduct sheet and attestation paper at Kew as I use to research Hubert at Kew myself. Didn't realize though that Hubert was listed under the wrong county also. No wonder the researcher referred to having difficulty at first. Thank you for the offer re info although I am now content with what I have on his time with the leinster reg.
To recap, for me I am still on the same line George Goodman supposedly born in Rickmansworth estimated to be 1848. Should Mary Katherine (Catherine) be one and the same I will know where all the children of Mary Goodman nee McCarthy died with the exception of George (junior). It would be good to identify some sisters brothers cousins etc for George (Senior) in Rickmansworth or another area, therefore looking at possible links. Was it by chance Winfield was with George. Caz1783'S Goodman family has a connection with Gristwood who in turn has a connection to Winfield. To know the religion of George (senior) before marriage would be a help also. His family may have come to Rickmansworth from another area. I wrote to the Catholic Archives as I wondered about a baptism for George (senior) in Old hall Green. This did not prove fruitful at all and I have recently written again re any records on the schools/homes for his children. I found a reference some time ago under the heading Old Hall Green and Southend Missions 51 (Hertfordshire and Hampshire) Catholic Ancestor vol 5 no 2/June 1994. I re looked at this reference when Ray mentioned Hampshire. Going off the subject a bit, I read, in Tracing your family Tree 1997, that a Rickmansworth man in his 91st year got baptised in St Mary the Virgin in 1818. His mother was a dissenter therefore he was not christened when young. Just a few years out then, I pity the person looking for that one.
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Hi there ...i been on the 1881 census and read "mary " under thomas gristwood ... they had a 3yr old lodger with them ? ... im still going through all our gristwoods ...cant find winfield on the papers i got sent but i have seen it before ?...and cant think where ? what i have found is there was 2 gristwood families in the area at the time as Louisa Gristwood (my grt grandmother ) her parents were both Gristwoods before marraige .... i am currently adding them all to see if jane pops up .
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oh i got ya maddie ...it says on the 1841 /51 census ...lucy .. heaven knows what i was seeing ? lol
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Hi caz
That's them on the 1841 & 51, although I am wrong in saying Lucy was Jane's mum, I've just checked back on my burial index & family search to discover that Thomas married Mary Axtell in 1809, their kids were Lydia 1813, Martha 1815, Charlotte 1817, Henry 1820 & Jane 1822. Mary dies in May 1826 & is buried 14 May in St Marys. Thomas then marries Lucy Holliman 15 July 1827 in Ricky.
Maddie
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take with a pinch of salt but
im actualy looking at someone elses tree and they have a thomas gristwood born 1787 ..mother "Martha Hawes"(1755) (they have martha down as a 1st wife to our William gristwood (1762 ) )
Martha HAWES – Kids with william Gristwood
Prudence Gristwood 1783 –
Charlotte Gristwood 1785 –
Thomas Gristwood 1787 –
John Gristwood 1790 –
Molly Gristwood 1794 –
Samuel Gristwood 1797 –
1841 census has Thomas Gristwood 54yrs (1787 ) with a wife Lucy 58yrs(1783) and Son Henry 20yrs and daughter Jane 18yrs (abt 1823 ) .... obv the martha will need checking out properly as if it is correct then it would possibly mean they are a half blood to mine...but tis late and i now have to retire for the day :o
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just seen your message maddie ...so that must be the right lucy i have above ?
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do we know who eliza/ elizabeth winfield married ? as where i am looking theres a pic of a woman with same name born in watford in 1861.
Also i knew i had seen her name ...and ive found it ...its on a very distant relatives tree this one was born in berkhamstead in 1877 and still resides there in 1891.
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Hi, just to go back to the James Goodman, the blacksmith, again. His son George born 1844 age 7 years in the 1851 census. Has anyone managed to find a death for him. I also remember thinking that it was a bit strange that James and Sarah seemed to have all their children baptized at St Mary's Ricky, although their son George appears to be baptized elsewhere. I think I noticed that on familysearch.org.
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Hi there ...George Goodman 1844 is a bit of a mystery man ....ive even checked 5 ancestors who have him on their tree and they have no death or even any kids for him either ? i cant even find where they had him baptized . Theres a George in watford who died in jul-Aug-Sep 1855 ?
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Hi all
Caz, Elizabeth Winfield was married, she was Elizabeth Rivett & married Thomas Winfield in 1882. In both the 91 & 01 census she is in Watford Workhouse.
With regard to George Goodman, son of James & Sarah, he wasn't the only son who's baptism doesn't show on Family Search, James & Sarah also had Thomas & Henry, who aren't there either. It's possible they were never baptised for one reason or another. I do agree that George is a mystery & also noticed that other trees don't have any info on him.
I know you have your doubts bg because of the age discrepency but I do feel that he is your George. I can't find any other George born Ricky to a father James that fits & we have tried every thing to find him. :-\
As to your George's religion at death, do you happen to know if the part of Chorleywood cemetery that he was buried in was set aside for non C of E burials. My own Great Grandparents & Grandparents are buried there albeit in the 1900's.
There is a description of Hubert on his army record, I wonder if he resembles any of caz's relations. Don't have it to hand at the mo but it's worth considering.............
I'll check it out just now.
Maddie
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hi everyone,
Caz is it possible for you to post the picture of the women born in 1861 for us to see.
Bgoodman would you also put a copy of George death certificate on, so we can see if there is any further clues you havent spotted. Also is there any news on the obituary?
I am beginning to wonder if our Elizabeth (nee Rivett) is a relation of George, I did spotted that when thomas winfield was in lodgings in 1891 there is a George Goodman from Hemel and a Rivett man at the same place.
Maddie, on ancestry can you access people`s trees, it would be interesting to see if anyone has this Elizabeth and Thomas winfield and any other branches.
I also feel that George 1844 is our man, as the country folk didnt really keep a good record of when they were born and often change the location of their birth with each census.
Keep up the good work everyone, i am sure we will eventually crack the nut and knock down the brick wall.
Bye for now
Jackie
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Hi Jackie
Thank you for endorsing my feelings on George Goodman. :)
I saw the George Goodman with Thomas Winfield on the 1891, did a bit of digging & I think he is actually a GODMAN from Hemel, very confusing, however, I didn't spot the Rivett chap but he has to be a relative of Elizabeth's surely. Not had time to work out how yet.
Yes I can access trees & there are a couple for Rivett & more for Winfield, sadly none have any more info than what we already know.
Caz, Hubert was 5ft 3 & a quarter, fair complexion, blue eyes & fair to brown hair, recognise anything..........
Maddie
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hi there ...thanks for the info maddie ( i went right past her with thomas lol ) i had my teeth in it for several hours last night on ancestry to find elizabeth as im a member ...but jackie is right you can access some peoples trees that are unlocked ...(mine is private but i dont mind sending an invite if need be or any reason .) That is where i saw a picture of a Elizabeth winfield ...it isnt the one as she was married to a man with the name frog.... (shame as it was a very good read ) :(
"coak /davies" she comes off our gristwoods and is on there .
There were 3 gristwood marraiges in our tree ... but i cant find a link ...
what i was realy trying to find which child from Jane Gristwood had Elizebeth to try that avenue?
Theres a Gristwood Tree in there but its locked and i tried to contact the member to ask if they knew but they also have their settings so as they cant be contacted .grrrrrrr lol. :o
Maddie huberts description i dont know what to say lol ...i know a lot of goodman relatives ive met lately ( ive never known anyone and im now in contact with my dads cousins etc ) i know they all have the brown /black hair sometimes blue or brown eyes ...but then im fair ...the height is about right for most of us ... i have got a copy of a photo i was sent of a goodman back in about 1900 ... it all realy depends what parent they take after most ...lol ....its a difficult one . ;)
.....we WILL do this lol ;)
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Maddie I would love to have the Blacksmith James as my Great great grand father and part of me holds out a tiny strand of hope still. However, with both the enlistment details and the death details matching so well it is difficult to hold on to such a hope. Just to remind you George enlisted in the 34th foot (Cumberland) Regiment on 10th May at Westminster aged 22 years and 8 months. The eight months I must admit was a ditto. It states born in Rickmansworth, 5ft 4ins height. Other than that there is no further personal details of his that has actually survived. I have his record re where he went during his army career and when he was discharged from the army in 1877, without a pension. His death age 39 matches perfectly also, if he were born later in the year 1848. The 1881 census on the other hand does not match exactly whereas it does confirm born in Rickmansworth. The burial place in Rickmansworth, Chorleywood Road Cemetery, for George and his daughter Margaret Phyllis are in separate places of unconsecrated ground. Not sure if it was because it was a government funded (burial board) type of burial, or whether even George (senior) was also not considered worthy. This may be because he was not C/E in the first place or because he may have converted to catholic or even the very fact that he married a catholic. I suppose it could also be that he was just from the poorer classes therefore didn't warrant a consecrated burial ground. I had a look again at familysearch.org and I must say they have tried to simplify searching. The George that I was looking at was christened in Elstley Cambridge with father James and Sarah mother. The 1844 George would have been too old I can see that now, even if they did wait a few years before christening the child. Well putting that George aside does anyone know what happened to the George born in Wargrave in 1848 father James (who I believe died later in 1848 leaving a will), and mother Elizabeth nee Withers.
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Hi
George was very precise with his age on enlistment then, sorry, I'm not sure I understand how the 8 months was a ditto, what was written above. ???
If he was 22 years & 8 months in 1871, (incidentally he should be in the 1871 census but I'm blowed if I can find him) then he should have been born Sept/Oct 1848 so registered in either Sept or Dec qtr. There are 3, one in Poplar, one in Billesdon Leic & one in Ampthill Beds.
At least we know that the males of the family were not very tall. :)
I'm afraid I can't find the George born in Wargrave on the census with a mother Elizabeth, although I did see his birth on Free BMD, have you found him in any census that could give me a clue.
Fingers crossed that obit for Catherine might mention other family names to help us because we sure need it. ::)
Maddie
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b.goodman has what holds me is the war enlistment in westminster ...its shame im not a time lord as my great grandmother comes from limerick ......
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i said this question yonks ago ? but not matter ...
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Hi, had another look at the 1871 army info of George number 1953. On the heading of the enlistment re age it does state years and months. I will try and post it for you to see. I believe that there is some connection with the Water Eaton, Bucks George and the Wargrave James, who was described in his will of 1848 as a gentleman. I did see on one of the census that there is also a connection with the Emerton family. I believe James did leave something in his will to, I think his nephew George aged 2. I believe there was a mention of books or something. I will look again at my notes. fourth time trying to post the attachment so hopefully it will not be too big this time.
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10th May at Westminster 1871
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Crikey, there was a lot of them aged so many years & 8 months. :o
Well, he is definate about Ricky & being a laborer, can you give me any more info on the Water Eaton George & I'll try to follow him through.
Maddie
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Checked out the Water Eaton George born c1848, 1871 he is living with his grandmother Elizabeth Emmerton right next door to his parents Thomas & Ann nee Emmerton (who married Newport Pagnell 1846) & other siblings.
He marries Emma Allen 1873 Newport P & shows in Water Eaton through all census till 1911. We can knock him of the possibles. :)
Maddie
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Thanks for checking that out for me Maddie. With the age for enlistment I noticed after the eight it starts with six mths. Before that there is just one 4mths. That sub district Fenny Stratford seems to have lots of Goodman people. John Goodman lived at no. 35, Sarah at 33, Joseph lived at 22,23 and Mary at 24. I did consider that Water Eaton guy before and other Goodmans between 1848-1850 but for one reason or another they seem to cancel out. I guess I am just going back over old ground. The Wargrave guy was the most likely until I found George's enlistment details re the probable birthday month and further reference to born in Ricky. Secondly, when I also found that the Wargrave James would have been of a higher class to my George. Then of course with the will linking Emerton that cancelled that out. James was married to Elizabeth Withers from Whistley, which doesn't appear to exist any more. I did write to and e-mail a lady once who is living in New Zealand re the Withers side. That was when I believed that I had a connection there. I noticed that there is also a will for a Francis Goodman, Farmer of Berkhamstead, Herts, 1849. Haven't seen any census reference to Berkhamstead before.
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Hi bgoodman,
With regards to George`s army records what information do you have besides that he served in conmel and that is where he got married.
I am going to have some more free time for the computer over the next week so i will do some digging around, if caz could put somemore in depth information on her Goodmans it may help with the break through we need to give your George his right branch on the family tree.
see you soon
jackie
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Hi
I'm happy to check out any ref for you if it will help to confirm who George was. :)
There are 2 Goodman's in Berko from the 1841, Francis aged 55 Farmer not born in county wife Sabrina aged 50 born in county. In 1851 Sabrina is living in Warwickshire.
Joseph aged 41 Carpenter born in county with wife Elizabeth aged 47 born in county. Children Ann 20, Elizabeth 16, William 14, Emma 7, Joseph 5 & John 3.
No sign of a George.........
Maddie
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hi maddie/caz/bgoodman
I have just been looking back over our everything, please caz could you verify the exact dates of your 98year old relative`s ancestors uncle george and uncle joseph and her grandfather george joseph. Could it be possible that this is actually bgoodman`s missing george joseph, that was in the boy`s home. It would fit in nicely if george joseph born 1881, married around 1897 and then his son had our lady around 1914. I know that i am probably clutching at straws but what a eureka moment it would be if it all did fit together like that.
hope to have a reply soon,
Jackie
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Thank you Jtas and Maddie I do appreciate your effort. On the birth cert of George Joseph (junior) 1881, it is actually typed rather than written. Instead of just saying father George it actually says George Joseph. I feel that also that the use of the second name especially may be significant. I recall that there were some George Joseph people in Hemel and London if my dodgy memory serves me right.I believe a George Joseph was sent to either Australia or New Zealand although he would have been younger than my George (junior). Other than the church using Joseph for George (senior) I haven't seen that name used for him before. The actual civil entry did say George and Hubert on his marriage cert gave his father's name as George. I will look again at the army stuff Jtas although there isn't very much in it. I think he just went to various counties in Ireland.
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Hi
With regard to a George Joseph Goodman birth there are none any where registered on Free BMD between 1843 & 1850, let alone Herts.
As you have a typed copy of George's (junior) birth cert there is a possibility that who ever did the copy made an error with the fathers name. It isn't unheard of to have mistakes on certs unfortunately. Although I can't imagine why George would be named Joseph on his marriage to Mary McCarthy. ??? What a great shame there was no occupation for James, the father of George on that marriage record. :(
Have you still not received that Obit from HALS. :(
Maddie
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Afternoon ..... Jackie the info given with regards to my 98yr old relative was incorrect ... dont take any notice of it ....i asked someone to find out for me and they gave me that info back from her ... ( i think its her age /memory thing as she os the only one left rom our joseph ) i checked it all out and my goodmans go upwards as ....
(1887 )Joesph
(1863 )George
(1838) James
(1801 )James
(1760)Thomas.
Theres nothing more i know about my Goodmans to anyone on here lol ..
If i means anything about using diff names on records ..i found my actual 1st grandfather did this ...he was born Joseph william ( named after a child who dditn survive a year earlier ) he changed his name to william joseph and he used the name william on marraige and was also used when he died .
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Hi caz
Bit spooky this, I have now realised that your George Goodman born c1863 was a very close neighbour to my own Grt Grandparents in Croxley Green. They all lived in New Road 1901 & 1911, in fact my Grt Grandfather died at 123 New Road in 1921, opposite side of the road to 122. :) I'm sure they were all known to one another. Incidentally I see your George was lodging with the Thackhams in Mill Square 1891, in case you would like to find this on a map it is now called Dickinsons Square & has been for many years.
Maddie
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lol funny enough maddie Ray recently told me where the Mill square was other week after i was racking my brains over it lol ....George Was lodging with the Thackhams as his sister "Ellen" married David Thackham ...looks lke his sister put him and his young family up for a while .
But yeh my grandfather George lived at 122 New rd ...( i read that New rd wasnt actualy a new rd as such it was one of the oldest rds .)
ive got an old picture somewhere i found in a book with loads of kids playing outside in the street BY 122/123 ...i do Wonder who them childen are ? lol .
wasnt no 123 made in to a shop of some sort ?
They wouldve all known each other ...back in the day before tv etc when places had community spirit and liked to socialise lol .
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Hi
Currently 132-146 is "The Co-op", 141 is James Estate Agents
So 122/123 are nearer The Green.
I Don't think 122 was ever a shop, Nor 123?
125 is Divers shop, previously hairdresser
127 prev a clockmaker/repairer?
(I'm also filling out the Coleman connections who were also almost next door)
Ray
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I will chase up that obituary tomorrow Monday if it doesn't arrive as It is taking ages. I saw that info before on the census re the Tackham connection. I also remember seeing Goodmans in Croxley green. I believe in one of the census there was a lady in a nicely named cottage.
I asked my brother to send me the photos of Mary Goodman (nee McCarthy) and Hubert. I will try and put them on although they will have to be quite small. Hubert is the fairer one perched on a stool with his friend. In the last photo he appears to be older and appears to have stripes on his sleeve suggestive of a Sargent. I must say the innocence is gone and he appears to have a hardened appearance. The photo of Mary with the writing at the bottom states the name of the photographer and James Street Harrogate.
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Several attempts later..
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Hi
I wonder what Mary was doing in Harrogate to have her photo taken there. !!!
I would imagine that the pic of Hubert sporting the Sargent stripes would have been taken after August 1914 when he was promoted & before 1919 when he left the regiment.
Still no sign of that obit then. :-\
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie for your concern, you really are kind. I just had a postal delivery and alas no obituary. I have now e-mailed the herts department as I ordered the obituary on the 10th of Sept, therefore it has been more than 10 days. Hopefully I will get it fairly soon now. I know that the photos are not very clear on Rootschat although I did notice that Mary appeared more casual in the first photo. The second one with her uniform on appears quite smart in comparison. I wondered about the Harrogate as well as far as I know there are no dates etc on the back of it. Not sure if she ever actually worked on Bury farm, seemed to be giving birth a lot of the time. When her daughter Teresa Gertrude died in Cashel in 1888 it was noted that Teresa was with her grandmother Margaret Carty (McCarthy) and it stated that Teresa was the daughter of a housekeeper. In the Irish later census it says private midwife. Not sure if my cousin in Ireland have managed to unearth any records of her training, if indeed she did actually train at all. I know that when she first got ill she was living with my grand father and his wife. Mary apparently got visits from some posh folks. My grand mother mentioned to my mother that these were previous customers re the midwifery.
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hi everyone,
it may be worth doing a bit of digging around with the photographer`s name, so that we can get a rough idea of when mary was in harrogate. His name looks like Waller Davey, of 12 jerome street Harrogate. I will look on findmypast later.
Bye for now
jackie
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sorry everyone, i mistranscribed the address, it is 10 james street harrogate. I have had a look for Waller Davey but nothing that fits has been found yet, i now wonder if in fact it is the other way around, Davey Waller, i will have another look later on.
Bye for now
Jackie
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walter davey the photographer was in business from about 1886 to 1900s according to another thread on roots chat :)
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Thanks for that Jtas. I dropped into Watford Library just now although I didn't have my details with me. The librarian informed me that another person had been looking for The Watford Leader and she was informed that the librarian had never heard of the paper. I did persist a little and she eventually managed to locate it. However, having searched the 1894 version I did not manage to locate it myself although I was too boggle eyed to try again. It is not exactly in order and the machine isn't the easiest to use, for me at any rate. I may have a look another day, with the details, if my order doesn't arrive. I did notice that Catherine's herts on line info states death notice not obituary as such. Having looked at some death notices in the Leader it just states the person's name, age and death date. I just hope I get a little more than that through the post, especially having waited so long.
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Thank you also 1783Caz. Totally unrelated, I read a book recently by Jennie Walters called Swallowcliffe & hall, house of secrets. There were interesting quotes in there from Casell's household Guide c.1880s. It brought Mary Goodman's (nee McCarthy) grief to mind, "It sometimes happens among the poorer classes that the female relatives attend the funeral; but this custom is by no means to be recommended, since in these cases it but too frequently happens that, being unable to restrain emotions, they interrupt and destroy the solemnity of the sermon with their sobs and even by fainting". What strange beliefs our betters had.
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Hi another huge thank you to Jtas who has informed me that Mary Goodman did do her training with The Rotunda Hospital, Dublin Ireland.Her address is 23 Dillon Street Clonmel. Her number was 11354. She started 1894 and enrolled (?registered) in 1905. Well I am pleased to see that she really was a midwife and not just a wet nurse trying to put on airs and graces. I will e-mail my brother who in turn will hopefully pass this info on to my cousin, who is already trying to research the training aspect. If I do manage to get hold of a copy of her records it may give more information even if it is just on her side of the family. Especially with the expected sparseness of the death notice I need something to float my boat.
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Well done Jackie, that is a great find. :D So, I wonder where Mary was in the 1901 Irish census. ??? Now we know that she wasn't in Ricky/Watford when Catherine died, if Catherine hopefully turns out to be her daughter. :-\
The death notice for Catherine does say it's in the Obit section. Fingers crossed there is more info. Can't say I'm very impressed with HALS service. :(
Maddie
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Hi, maybe you should have crossed more fingers Maddie as I have now managed to obtain the info from Watford Library. It is indeed just a death notice of all those who have died recently (in Feb1894). It just states the name, age, date and where the person died. Interestingly the day before there was another death at St Vincent's of an Emma Reid age 30 years. One of you rootschat people did say that as it was meningitis there may have been other deaths, which may now have been the case. With that photographer my brother informs me that the address in Harrogate may have been the business address and he believes some of those guys had shops in Ireland as well.
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Oh rats, :'( we don't have much luck finding that missing link to George, do we.
It does sound as if there was an outbreak of meningitis in 1894, how sad.
There's a few bits about Walter Davey photographer on the net, I saw mention of him starting out in Brighton.
If you are interested I found an ebook on the net, it's a history of Rotunda Hospital Dublin.
http://archive.org/details/bookofrotundahos00kirk
Where to go from here. ???
Maddie
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1888 Burials
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Entry number 2704 Arthur William Goodman infant son of Arthur and Emma Goodman 8 mths 4th march 1888, Place of burial L.10, No. of grave 26a in consecrated ground. Place of death Rickmansworth. From what parish removed Rickmansworth.
Entry Number 2707 Mary Louisa Goodman daughter of Arthur and Emma Goodman aged 3yrs death occurred in Rickmansworth 11th of March 1888. Place of burial L.10, 27a in consecrated ground. My ggrand father appears to be the only Goodman on that page in unconsecrated ground. Lots of Goodman deaths in March 1888. George's daughter Margaret Phyllis is buried later 30th of May also1888, unconsecrated ground also. The other child died later Teresa Gertrude, in Ireland, sept 1888. Not sure if the former Goodmans Arthur and Emma are related to any Goodman rootschat people.
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Hi
That's sad, those two little children belong to caz's Arthur & Emily nee White. Arthur born c1863 was the son of James.
They have moved to Bushey by 1891.
Added, sorry, got that wrong, Mary Louisa was the daughter of Arthur & his first wife Harriet Miles who died in 1885, he married secondly Emily in 1886 & they had Arthur William.
Maddie
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Hi there ...yes your right maddie thats my arthur goodman ...i think he was a ladies man ....married 3 times and one was a kate gristwood as well ...
im sure there was an outbeak of meningitus ...i think one of ours died of it as well around same time ... i have seen it somewhere about an outbreak but cant remember where (my poor head is crammed of useless info lately lol ) i know there was a death in frogmore lane i think it was ...on my family around the mid to late 1880s might of also been the meningitus .
Strangley enough i found the martha hawes and gristwoods i mentioned other day are mine as well lol
do we know what year george junior was born ? i have found a george married without kids living near ricky ...not sure who he is yet .
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Hi 1783Caz I guess the consecrated and unconsecrated ground separates our Goodman families. That is why I was trying to establish what religion George (senior) was before his marriage to Mary McCarthy. I was informed that it was unlikely in 1848 for there to be Catholic families around the Hertfordshire area. Therefore if George was born a catholic I would have to consider George and his family coming into this area from an area where there were Goodman Catholics, or perhaps another dissident religion. It really is amazing how far that you have got although you must feel swamped with the amount of information that you are unearthing. The giant puzzle will hopefully all fit together for you eventually. George Junior was born 1881, all the children were born Bury farm Batchworth, Rickmansworth..
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Hi bgoodman
Can you confirm who is w j h hardy on the death information page that you posted earlier.
How do you know that George was buried in the unconsecrated section, maybe there was no money to pay for his funeral and he had to have a pauper grave
Look forward to your reply
Jackie
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Hi
I have just been reading about the unconsecrated ground in Chorleywood cemetery & it was there for any non C of E burials including non religious ones. It was also quite common for the officiating minister to actually consecrate the burial plot at the time if appropriate.
The Father of the R C church in Ricky was Henry Hardy, from 1886 until 1904. I can't find any Henry or otherwise on the census at all. ???
As Mary & the children were all of the Catholic faith I would imagine that George would have had to take the faith to allow him to marry Mary, not necessarily that he was born a Catholic & as you say, before 1886 Catholicism was unheard of in Ricky. He does seem pretty sure that that was where he was born. :-\
Maddie
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Thank you all for your input. I did wonder if there was an adult confirmation etc when George and Mary got married in 1875 in Clonmel. George was a soldier then and according to Michael Gandy, the Catholic priests were not strict at that time re folk having to convert in order to marry. I am not convinced that such a record doesn't exist but it is trying to find how to go about searching for it, especially in Ireland. I didn't realize that that person Hardy would have any significance. I hadn't thought to look him up before. I guess my next quest is trying to find the burial register where Mary Katherine (Catherine) is buried as the little notes for example daughter of Mary Goodman etc may be what I need to confirm that she is my girl.
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Hi, I have rang Hertford Local Studies and they have just informed that there has been a flood therefore the burial registers Watford/Rickmansworth are not available at present. They suggested that I contact the Local Historical Society, which I have now done by e-mail. Hopefully I will get some information even if it is a push in the right direction as to where to start looking for Catherine's burial. I know that George (senior) and his daughter were buried by Rickmansworth Union Burial Board as they died in, and were from the parish of Rickmansworth. However, Mary Katherine (Catherine) actually died in Watford therefore may not come under Rickmansworth Union in 1894.
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Hi, re W. H. J Hardy I noticed that when Margaret Phillis died at the end of May the ceremony was performed by a W. J. Harding. Not sure if the second entry is a mistake as Maddie found the first guy which does appear to make sense.
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Hi all, the information that I read on Rev. Henry Hardy was that he was a secular priest who founded the catholic mission 1886. That the corrugated Iron Chapel, built by Hardy, was in Rickmansworth high street until it was demolished when new premises and land were purchased from the Salter Brewery Company. Just out of interest does anyone know where in the high street the corrugated iron chapel would have been.
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Salters Brewery had the malting house next door to some cottages near fortune common ...it was later converted into the presbytery behind the catholic church. i think that church was "our lady help of christian catholic church" ... in park rd ....opened in 1909....im reading from one of my books that when this church was enlarged in 1935 incl 2 classrooms which meant that St Monicas school could move out of its corrugated Iron Hut ... would st monicas school be the old church ?
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Morning!
Somewhere I have a pic of the maltings before they "stuck the church" on the front.
The following pic shows the (possibly new) church with the photographer standing the other side of the railway bridge (you can see the arch framing the church).
The photographer is standing across the road from the brewery.
The 1896 map shows that area very well, but no obvious tin hut.
The Methodist(Wesleyan) Chapel was 50-100 yards behind the photographer
(same side as brewery)
The Baptist Chapel 100-150 yards behind "him" on "this" side of the High Street
http://www.rickmansworthcatholicchurch.org/churchhistory.htm
There were a number of those tin huts built for worship around that time.
The obvious remaining one (to me) is the one opposite The Clarendon (Arms) at Chandlers Cross
http://goo.gl/maps/09XwE
Ray
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there was also a barn used at the rear of coach and horses owned by salters ....was registered as a meeting place for te baptist community...and that i think was just across rd from he church ray mentioned "Wesleyan chapel"...of which ad originaly housed a smaller chapel and a coachbuilding but destroyed in fire in 1855
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Thank you for your replies. I expect the corrugated chapel in the high street was before all this re the involvement with the brewery land. It probably wasn't very significant in itself, especially as Ray mentioned that these worship places were common at one time. I just wondered if the space where it was could be seen as an obvious landmark now as Rickmansworth high street doesn't appear to have altered much over the years. Hopefully it will remain as quaint as it is now. What with your maps and books 1783caz I can see that you are still as keen as ever, keep up the good work as I strongly believe James the blacksmith's memory should live on.
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james the blacksmith should deffo live on ....i agree,,, Thing that gets me about him i havent seen many blacksmiths in ricky on the census ...only him ?
but anyhow im sure theres a book in the library on churches in ricky i tink i may of seen this iron chapel in there ...i will see if i can find it when i go in this week :)
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Away at present but thank u for that
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Hi all, I have written again to the archives at Westminster re whether Father Hardy, who it seems performed the burial ceremony on George Goodman 1888, had any records kept as he appeared to be a secular priest. I gather that meant they had no fixed place/parish. Apparently he acted as rector until 1904 at Rickmansworth parish, having firstly built the corrugated iron chapel in the high street. I was hoping that if there may have been some god parents mentioned re George senior's family. On the other hand I wondered also whether Mary Goodman (nee McCarthy) had the children baptized in Cashel where her mother lived. Thinking that the family would not have had the cash to come over for the occasion. Especially as it appears from the rate book records that Mary was paying for her mother to live in William street Cashel. It probably was convenient for Mary, working in England as the mother appeared to care for at least one of the children. The one who died interned in the rook of Cashel 1888. My cousin looked into any baptisms at Cashel in the past, so my brother informs me, but to no avail. Not sure if she also looked at nearby places, may be worth another look. Although my real interest lies with the elusive George Goodman re his birth place, his past prior to 1871 and his Rickmansworth family. However, Mary does seem to be somewhat of a character also. Having seen the rule book for midwives, she must have been made of tough stuff and must have been quite thrifty too. To have embarked on such a training having lost so many of her family members and presumably leaving young George in a boys home in England. Also my grandfather Hubert, if she did initially take him with her to Ireland, he would have been quite young. Sad though if she used some of that strength of character to persuade George (senior) to take on her religion at marriage as it may have alienated him from his supposedly Rickmansworth family. Which in turn would make it even more difficult for me to find out who they were.
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Ellen Goodman is she a relative of anyone?
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Hi
I believe the Ellen Goodman is part of my Uncles tree, I have one born 1805 & as her address is Talbot Road, the same as other Goodman's in this family, it's looking pretty likely. Unfortunately I haven't researched all of the Goodman's, only my Uncles direct line.
Still pointing to the fact that there were only the 2 Goodman families in Ricky....... ;)
Maddie
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Thank you for your reply Maddie. I am pleased that there probably is a connection I thought there may be to either you or 1783Caz. It was ten shillings to actually enrol, according to the published rules book 1903, under the Midwife act of 1902. There was also a fee for the exams and a fifteen shilling fee if you failed entry to the roll the first time round. Not sure how much it initially cost for the training. There is some jargon with the act although there are quite sensible rules also. Ireland would have been under English rule at Mary's time of enrolment and previously when she started her training. It does seem like a very high standard of training as it would be the same throughout the British isles at that time.
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Hi again.
Thank you for the info on the training, interesting. Having checked again on my tree Ellen would have been my Uncles Aunt. Unfortunately now there is no one left to ask for more info. My Aunt & Uncle had a son in 1940 but tragically my cousin was killed when the Vulcan bomber he was in blew up over Cottesmore RAF base back in 1968.!!
Maddie
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hi there i have an ellen but shes born 1864 so wouldnt be her ...Maddie this Goodman family of yours i was looking through newpaper stuff last night etc and saw stuff on a goodman family in ricky and also talbot rd was mentioned ...a lot of it was on William born around early 1800s ...My goodmans lived in talbot rd as well ...but it was called "redpale rd " before .
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Hi
The earliest of my Uncles Goodman's in Ricky is Henry William born 1835 in Chesham Bois Bucks but the William you found in the newspaper could be Thomas & Zylpha's son born 1804 in Ricky. Was the article interesting.. :)
Maddie
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they wernt mine my william wouldve been to young ... i shall take more note of names etc when i look through again ..was just passing some time seeing what interesting stuff to read lol
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Hi, I have just received an e-mail back re Fr Hardy from the Westminster Archives. I wondered if he had kept any records re his "catholic administrations" in Rickmansworth. Unfortunately the only records that they had was a biography of Fr Hardy. That was of course a disappointment as I am now thinking where to next. I haven't heard anything back from Rickmansworth Historical Society yet, re burial info (transcriptions) for 1894 Catherine. I will have to contact HALS again as they suggested that I tried that route as their records were unavailable at the time, due to flooding. It depends on whether Mary Katherine (Catherine) would have been considered under Rickmansworth Parish or changed to Watford Parish, having moved to Watford. Probably moved following the death of her father in 1888 as I would imagine the family would have lost the right to stay at Bury Farm Cottage.
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Hi, while browsing I noticed that there were some Goodman marriages and banns at Ware St Mary, Hertfordshire. When I looked up the info about that church in particular it appeared to have some catholic connection. There was Esther Goodman of Ware marriage to George Spooner of Ware 1849. There was also Mary Ann Goodman of Ware who married William James Templeman of Hertford 1855. Joanna Goodman Charvill of Ware who married Charles Clark 1863. I e-mailed the church re any connection to my ancestors baptisms etc and received a reply today. Basically there are no such records stored by the church although the lady mentioned contacting HALS. Aw well worth a try I guess.
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Hi
I wouldn't have thought that your George & Mary would have gone to Ware to get their children baptised. I've been having another look & can't find them any where, through my own research I'm pretty sure that the IGI has an extremely good coveridge of the Ricky/Watford area but thinking about it, if they were baptised as Catholics perhaps they could have gone North London way. It would have been quite feasible to have traveled up Batcher Hill towards Hendon.
I wonder if it would be worth trying Westminster Archives as I believe they may hold some Catholic records. Although from what I can gather reading on the net, the Catholic churches still hold their own records. :-\
Maddie
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Hi
Hendon via batchworth Hill? via Watford, Edgware.
Aren't Harefield, Uxbridge, Ruislip . . . . . canal route more obvious?
There'a a handful of Goddman families around Heronsgate from various place.
R
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Hi Ray
I did put Hendon, didn't I. ;D A senior moment & it was late, I actually meant Hatch End. ::)
Not necessarily by canal, it was the main road, the toll gate was at the top of Batcher Hill.
I just thought that could be where R/C churches might have been in the area. If there were any, that is. :-\
Maddie
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Thank you both for your comments. I feel as though I have come to the end of the road with Westminster Archives at present. I have sent many e-mails and I have hazard guesses re areas where my Goodman ancestors may have baptized their children etc. Of course without any information at all it has proved impossible for the Archivist to help although he did try initially. I will try looking up some of those towns that you have suggested re where R/C churches may have been from 1879 onwards as that was the birth of George Goodman's first born.
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The priest at Westminster e-mailed me info re Hardy and being desperate I just latched on to Ware etc.
Hardy, Henry 1840-1918
Born: August 1840
Educated: Oxford
Anglican ministry: in Nottingham and Vauxhall
Received into the Church: 1876
Seminary: St Edmund’s, Ware as a ‘parlour boarder’ (1876-78)
Ordained: 25 July 1878
Appointments: Fr Hardy specialised in founding parishes and, as soon as a mission was established, he would move to another pioneer area. At ordination he asked Manning to be sent to the obscurest part of the diocese – he thus began at the temporary chapel, Harrow-on-the Hill (1878-91), during which time he bought the site for the church at Roxborough Park and opened a small church at Rickmansworth; he then settled at Rickmansworth (1891-), where he built the church and began saying Mass in a room at Boxmoor; then he transferred to Boxmoor (), where he built the church and founded the ‘villeggiatura’ house there for the Sisters of the Assumption, Kensington. He continued to serve Rickmansworth until it was handed over to Assumptionists, driving there in a pony-chaise. Next he served Berkhamstead, which he had started from Boxmoor, living in a tiny cottage next to the Boxmoor Convent. His final foundation was Tring, where he built a church and house.
Died: 23 January 1918, Tring. His final Mass was said there on the last Sunday of January 1918, where he had to be supported by two soldiers. He was then taken to his kitchen, where he lay for a few days and received the Last Rites from Fr Hacket of Berkhamstead. He was buried in Bedford.
Notes: Tablet obit., 2 February 1918, pp163-64. ‘Thus, single-handedly and depending mainly upon his own resources, most carefully husbanded, and by living in unusual simplicity and abnegation, he exercised an apostolate in western Hertfordshire in which he has diffused the beauty of the Catholic faith’
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Hi
Looks like Harrow & Roxborough Park could be a starting point as they are on the old turnpike road from Ricky to Harrow, if any records survive. :-\
Fr Hardy got about a bit in West Herts, didn't he. :)
Maddie
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Hi
1901 RG13 1326 51 p13
42 StJohnsRoad, Boxmoor, (Hemel Hempstead) [then 9 Anchor Lane]
Henry J Hardy 50 Camden Priest (Roman Catholic Church)
Lily A Pratt 26 Domestic Housekeeper HeathnReachBeds
Alice E Moore 21 Housekeeper Vauxhall
1891 RG12 1039 97 p30
College Road, Harrow
Henry J Hardy 50 StPancras Catholic Priest
1881 RG11 1359 26 p46
St Thomas House Roxborough Road Harrow
Henry James Hardy 40 StPancras Roman Catholic Priest
1840 St Pancras Dec 1 239 Henry James Hardy
1841 HO107 681 2 50 p29
Camden Street
John Hardy 30 Master in University School
Georgeana Hasey (Hardy?) 25
Vesus Hardy 2 (Vesey Malden Hardy b 1839 St Pancras Mar 1 242?)
Henry Hardy 10mo
+pupils
1851 HO107 1498 326 p35
John T V Hardy Head 42 Dublin ? Beb? Classical Tutor in Uni College School
Georgiana Hardy Wife 40 St Pancras,
Vesey M Hardy Son 12 St Pancras,
Henry T Hardy Son 10 St Pancras,
Anne Hardy Dau 8 St Pancras,
George H Hardy Dau 5 St Pancras,
Alicia C Hardy Dau 3 St Pancras,
Irene Hardy Dau 1 Westminster
1861
Langley Station School, Abbots Langley
John T V Hardy Head 50 Ireland BA Lon Schoolmaster
Georgiana A Hardy Wife 50 London
Henry Jas Hardy Son 20 London “AA xxxx”? + Underg. Uni Lon
Ann Hardy Daughter 18 London
Geo Hardy Son 15 London
Alicia Hardy Daughter 12 London
Irene Hardy Daughter 10 London
Wm Pitt Boarder 13 Lindley Yorkshire
Alfd Riley Boarder 12 Huddersfield Yorkshire
1871 RG10 670 86 p4
139, Upper Kensington Lane
Charlotte Green 41 Head, Lodging House Keeper Clevedon Somerset
Eliza White 18 Niece Bruton Somerset
Charles W Dredge 13 Nephew Westminster
Philip W Sauger 19 Boarder Lambeth
Ernest E Dugmore 28 Head, Curate of StPeters Vauxhall Bayswater
Henry J Hardy 30 Head, Curate of StPeters Vauxhall London Middlesex
Ray
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Hi
Well done Ray, you found Fr Hardy in 1881 & 1891. :)
I wonder if Mary asked for Fr Hardy to bury George & daughters because he also baptised them all. :-\
This sounds like it could be the same church, Our Lady of St Thomas & Canterbury, 22 Roxborough Park, Harrow on the Hill.
Is it possible they could still have records. ???
Maddie
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Hi
Yup, this opens up quite a few possibilities.
[and all 1-handed! I had a hand op Thursday evening!)
What shall we do next?
R
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Hey, hope your hand recovers soon. :)
(What shall we do next?) :D
No idea, any suggestions. ;)
Maddie
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Hi, thank you both very much and I hope the arm is better soon Ray. I will chase up any Harrow and Roxborough R/C churches next, by sending an e-mail if it is possible. Failing that I will have to get myself up to HALS and if there is no joy there maybe go in person to Westminster. It may be possible to search specific registers myself at Westminster. I feel that I have already asked too much of the archives to e-mail them further. Yes I wondered also if they did use the same priest re the baptisms and burials, as afterall there would have been a shortage of priests in the Hertfordshire area.
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Our Lady of St Thomas & Canterbury, Roxborough Park, has a web site with an e-mail addy..... here's hoping they can help. :)
Maddie
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Hi all
You certainly have been busy, bgoodman where do you find your information!!! Have you had any further developments on your Mary Goodman (macarthy) midwifery career. Has there been any further information on the photographer, it may be worthy sending a copy into one of these genealogy magazines to see if they can give you an approx date of when it was taken. Quick point about George senior`s date of birth, i recently was looking at my great great grandfather Joseph farmer, in the 1911 census his birth date was 1855, in another 1856 and in another 1857, the correct one being 1856. So you can see they probably were never sure the year they were born.
Look forward to reading the next instalments, keep up the good work fellow rootschatters.
jackie
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Thank you Jtas and Maddie for your replies. I have just e-mailed the above church. Re info I just got a vague idea and the real work was done by Ray and Maddie who seem to bounce things off each other which in turn helps to make things clearer. You may well be right Jtas re the different ages with George. If only I had both his parents names I could accept or reject the 1844 George's date of birth. Although the army stuff does seem pretty precise, with the 22 years and 8 months, which also matches with his 39 years at death. However, it is also strange that 1783Caz is unable to find her George (for sure) after the 1851 census when he was 7 years old. I am hoping my cousin can try and get more personnel info from The Rotunda although I got the impression that they were only able to provide general stuff. I know that she started 1894 and actually enrolled as a Midwife in 1902. She must have started the same year that Mary Katherine (Catherine) her daughter supposedly died. Need to find that burial also to confirm that this was definitely her child.
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Hi
Don't really know why Ray & I seem to gel, unless it's because we have near enough 63 years of experience between us in the Ricky area. ;D
I have been looking again at the ages & info for the guys who are on the Attestation list with George. Strangely, I can only pick up Ebenezer Ralph on the census & Free BMD have him as Relph born Mar qtr 1853, doesn't that make him 17 in 1871 not 18 years & 8 months. :-\ The other names are a mystery which makes me suspicious about the info.
There is a complete list of Depot Rolls for the 34th Foot Cumberland from 1838 to 1873 on the net & George appears to be the only one that enlisted at Westminster on May 10th 1871. (Yes, I've been through the lot ;))
Don't suppose any of this helps but I'm trying. :)
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie I really do appreciate your efforts. I agree that this age thing re the army is a bit too precise. Also generally there does appear to have been quite a few mistakes in the civil recording at the time. All this makes life very difficult indeed.
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hi there ...i cant help much with this info lately as its a bit to out my depths lol ...but if you need to know anyting regarding boxmoor church in st john rd i would be happy to pop across there as its right near me ... :)
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Hi
Gel? Can only be the sense of humour, natural charm, quick-wittedness, "born" personality, and VERY modest. ;D
Then there is me. Stubborn, OCD, terse, unedoocatted and illiterut.
I'm going to "tidy up" what I found about RevFr HJH.
I noticed that he (poss) wasn't educated at Oxford but at his father's London.
Also, poss connection? Railway.
HarrowOnHill to Rickmansworth is direct.
Harrow/Wealdstone to HemelH/Boxmoor.
Harrow to Ruislip/Uxbridge
ps Don't forget that most people could not read/write let alone work out to the month how old they were.
Ray
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Morning all
Ray, ;D 8).
Yes, you are right, the railway could figure in here & as has been said before ages were a thing of mystery way back then. I certainly have a few of my ancestors who had no idea how old they were. :)
Caz,
That's a thought re the Boxmoor church, could come in handy.
One day we might find George.......... ::)
Maddie
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Hi Maddie i had to check that midwife record with the Ellen Goodman just to clarify its not one of mine ...and its not ...but what i have found is that she lived in Talbot road with her husband Henry Goodman and kids ... (so she married into the family ) ...His father was Henry W Goodman (1833) was born in Chesham ... and step mother Priscilla A.Puddephatt (1856) and born in Chesham ... He was a baker in 1881 and they had a servant named Mary Pratt ....Henrys W goodmans father is William Goodman
Priscillas father is William Puddephatt...I think Henry junior married twice and his first wife is Sarah ...
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Hi Caz
Yes, you are right, that is the correct family but I think the midwife Ellen was the daughter of Henry & Ellen as she was 31 in 1934. :) Born 1904 in Ricky.
Henry married Ellen Gibbs in 1883 & they were my Uncles Grandparents.
Henry's father was Henry William, he married Sarah Beckley in 1859 in Latimer Bucks, she died in 1875 & he then married Priscilla A Puddephatt in 1876 Newington Surrey.
Confusing, all these Goodman's in Ricky "aint it". ;)
Maddie
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. . . . . not Gibbs? Another blacksmith?!
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Hi Maddie,
I have just been looking at the 1851 census for james goodman the blacksmith, his next door neighbours are the Beckley family who were the rellies of my mum`s aunt and uncle that married two Beckley`s from the same family. At this rate we will soon find that we are all related one way or another. I wonder if your Sarah Beckley was connected to this branch.
I also noticed on the 1851 that there were a few Gristwood families living near to James goodman, and it was Elizabeth Winfield (nee Gristwood) that reported George `s death, if she had grown up with him she would have had a vague idea of his date of birth and that could explain why she was there when he died.
bye for now
Jackie
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Hi
No Ray, as far as I know this Gibbs wasn't a blacksmith. :)
Jackie, my Sarah Beckley was born in Chesham but it's always possible they could be the same family connected further back. There are loads of Gristwood's in Ricky & there is a possibility that the Elizabeth Winfield was formally Elizabeth Gristwood, can't find any proof though.
Ricky had always been populated by the same families for years, I can remember my Mum & Dad often mentioning names back in the 50's that I keep coming across in my research. :D
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
Sorry about my wrong info earlier on regarding elizabeth winfield, i have just looked back and seen that she was a rivett. i am not well today and not thinking straight.
Regards
jackie
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Hi Jackie
Hope you feel better soon. You're right though, we did find a connection some where way back for the Winfield & Gristwood's, can't just remember what though without going back through all the posts. ;D
Maddie
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Maddie yes thats right she is the daughter also named Ellen ... :)
Gristwoods are huge ...i looked back on my Gristwoods other week and noticed that our Louisa Gristwood who married our James junior goodman ...Both her parents were born Gristwoods from 2 diff gristwood families ... ... so i know im connected to 2 of them now lol ....
Jackie ,thats what i said a long time ago about us all being related one way or another lol ...i await the day when i stumble across something that tells me im related to maddies lot lol
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Hi, what a whirl of info that was. I did see another Goodman, occupation blacksmith, on one of the censuses but that was in another county. I wish I could remember where I saw this. It may not mean anything although occupations did tend to run in families. However, it was a different first name, peter or something similar, therefore it didn't seem to belong to Rickmansworth James's own children. If my cousin can get info re date of birth for Mary Goodman and any other personal info, that means such info would also be available for Ellen. I went to Watford library today and asked about burial registers on microfilm. Apparently Rickmansworth library have now sent their microfilms to Watford. Unfortunately the burials for Rickmansworth only go up to 1885. I then looked at Watford, as I am not sure under which parish Catherine would be buried, having died in Watford. On their microfilm under the year 1894 there is very few names and most are just lists of surnames with no other info. Lots of blank pages etc., not a very complete list at all. I rang HALS and the person I spoke with mentioned that the Rickmansworth burial register for that period is on microfilm, she seemed a bit unsure about the flood info re the actual registers. I have tried ordering the info on line hoping that the burial info is under Rickmansworth registers. Bearing in mind also that I didn't even have exact burial date or place, therefore fingers crossed.
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While waiting for HALS to get back to me I am once again researching "all things Goodman".
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This letter, if it posted OK, is a sample by John Wilson Manuscripts Limited. The writing at the side of this sample is as follows." HELPS, Sir Arthur (1813-1865). Privy Councillor.
Autograph Letter signed to G J Goodman, 2 pages 8vo, Council Office, 4th May 1874 (embossed Council Office stamp excised with the loss of a few words). Making an appointment to see Goodman, but warning that he has little time for questions not connected to his work." It states that this image is the first page only. The G J initial if it is George Joseph could relate to my Ggrandfather. However, I would imagine it is more likely to be Godfrey Goodman as I am sure Helps wouldn't give people like my George the time of day. Incidentally, and totally unrelated, I found Godfrey Goodman of Bishops Stortford married Francis Adelaide Marriott of bath on 30th of June 1861. Apparently it was in the Gentleman's magazine. I suspect he was the Godfrey who was at one time invited to be the Chaplain at Watford Workhouse.
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Hi all, horror oh horror, it appears that Ray's reservations about Catherine may be right. HALS so far are not able to find her. They have found a Priscella and other Goodman persons but no Catherine so far. I guess the born in Ireland, the name Catherine, instead of Mary Katherine, was significant after all. However, until and if I find where they put this Catherine I will never be 100% sure. Also not sure if the fact that she had meningitis, died under the care of the school and was the second person to die within two days delayed the burial at all. I couldn't give HALS AN exact burial date whereas with my other two burials I did have that exact info and therefore they were able to locate the burial info no problem. Did they do post postmortem's for suspicious deaths and would hers be considered a suspicious death?.
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Hi
Sorry, are you saying that HALS can't find Catherine's burial details. ??
We know she died so she must be buried somewhere. ???
I would have thought that as she died in Watford she would be buried in Vicarage Road cemetery but I might be totally wrong. I don't think the Roman Catholic church in Watford was established at the time of her death. Unless of course the R/C School used a specific cemetery. :-\ Do you have a record of all the Goodman burials in Chorleywood Road to be able to eliminate that one.??
I can't see meningitis being treated as suspicious, poor little soul would probably have been ill for a while before dying.
Did you have any luck with the R/C church in Harrow at all. ??
Maddie
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Thank you for your reply Maddie. Yes you are right the R/C church was established later. However, I expected Catherine, if she was my Mary Katherine, to be buried in the same Chorleywood cemetery as her father and her younger sister. They were buried in 1888 in different months of the year and in separate places, both in unconsecrated ground. Probably both buried by that R/C priest Fr Hardy. Although they did actually die in their own parish also, unlike this young lass who died in Watford. HALS was only looking at Rickmanworth as far as I know although I may have to check with them re Watford also. I had a reply from Harrow saying that their church was not established until later re any baptisms. I think I may have already e-mailed them before also. I received a reply from Ware church also saying, no available records kept. I think with the churches and Westminister archives I keep coming up against a brick wall. I am getting confused as to who I have already e-mailed at this stage, although I am sure that I have e-mailed the most likely ones so far.
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Hi Bgoodman
I think Maddie may be right in suggesting looking at Vicarage Road cementry, it is quite a large grave yard and i think you can find out from either watford council or the library who is buried there. Also what about St Mary`s church yard in the town centre, again the library may have the records.
I am sure that this is your catherine, you could check to see how many deceased george Goodman`s there was around that time.
Did you get any further with the photographer and dating the pictures of Mary Goodman. Do you think she was a midwife while she was with George or did she train when she returned to Ireland. She must have been well off to be able to train and keep paying the rent on the house in clonmel.
I look forward to hearing from you,
bye for now
jackie
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Hi
Jackie, that's a good point re how many George Goodman's had died prior to 1894 in the Watford Registration district & there is only the one, George who died in 1888. :o
There is an e-mail contact on the Watford Borough Council web site for North Watford Cemetery which now covers Vicarage Road & I believe they have all burials recorded, so probably worth trying them direct & not going through HALS.
It isn't looking good as far as finding any baptisms for the children is concerned & nothing has come to light to help in confirming the parentage of George if he isn't the son of James the blacksmith. :-\
Maddie
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what was the parents name on the birth certificate for george born at bury farm cottage ? ... i dont know why but i have a feeling this george could connected to the daniel goodman i keep seeing ... but nothing to make the connection ...just seems this george is a mystery man and daniel goodman seems to be as well ....mystery goodmans .
Maddie ...is joseph goodman on the croxley war memorial who died in india ww1 yours ?
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Hi caz
I didn't know there was a Joseph Goodman on the Croxley memorial, ??? my Joseph was the son of Henry & Ellen of Talbot Road. He was in the Beds Regiment & died 30/11/1918. Buried at Bareilly Cemetery & is on the Madras War Memorial India.
I do have an Uncle & a Great Uncle on the Croxley memorial though. There are two Goodman's on there but I don't know who they are.
The George born at Bury farm was the son of George & Mary Goodman. Is that the one you mean. Haven't come across a Daniel, only in the Militia lists. ???
Maddie
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ah ok think im getting things muddled ...seen so much past few days and so many trees i think my brains going into overdrive again ...
Maddie do you have a joseph goodman born 1854 in watford ... his mother is sarah goodman ...but he was living with his aunt Elizabeth Robinson /nee goodman with her husband Abel Robinson in bedfordshire .1861 onwards ?
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Hi caz
No sorry, that Joseph Goodman isn't part of my lot, according to a tree on anc he was born in Watford workhouse to a John & Sarah Goodman. Can't check Family Search at the mo as it's down for maintenance.
Maddie
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Hi
Just to remind you . . . . .
The chaps on the memorial
GOODMAN John Victor
Rifleman C/575, 16th Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps. Killed in action 2nd January 1916 in France & Flanders. Born Amersham, enlisted Watford, resident Croxley Green. No known grave. Commemorated on LOOS MEMORIAL, Pas de Calais, France. Panel 101 and 102
GOODMAN W
No further information currently (2009)
Full list
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Hertfordshire/CroxleyGreen.html
Ray
Maddie, Could WG be JVG's elder brother? R
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. . . . AND . . . .
a blacksmith next door but 1 to JVG
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Hi all and thank you for your replies which I was very pleased to get. You are a busy lot indeed. I rang HALS again today as it seems the info on the site doesn't quite match with what they actually have under DP/1/50 1886-1925 for Rickmansworth. Catherine's death of 1894 should come under that year range. Therefore I am now getting conflicting info re whether Catherine is at the cemetery or not. The person that spoke with me did eventually acknowledge that this was not my error. She did say that they are very short staffed and would get back to me but didn't know whether it would be today or tomorrow. I explained to them that I had already looked at the microfilm at Watford re burials and it seems that their info is the very same as Waford Library. Unfortunately not very complete records. Which having checked that out by looking, with great difficulty, on their site I must agree. Under the website for the Watford Parish Archives DP11/1/25 1890-1892 Vol 1. there is the following info " Most of the volume unused. Pencil entries of year surname only continue until 1894. Note from 1892 the register of burials was kept by the clerk of the burial board". I searched again and found Parish Council info under CP124/1/1 although this relates to Dec 1894-April 1898. Catherine died in Feb 1894 before this. Even if I were to go down the Watford route this would be difficult. Not sure if I mentioned before that there was a Catherine Goodman on the 1891 census born in Ireland aged 9 years at the time, which would be the same age as this Catherine. She was resident at Falmouth Cornwall. Her father was Samuel, lucky for me. Strangely enough her brother George was born in Clonmel in 1889. Not sure if they were from a military family also as Clonmel was a garrison town with lots of regiments and their families residing there at one time or another. Lucky for me the brother would also be too young otherwise things could get very complicated. I had a feeling that that family were not Catholic as I think their relative was Archibald buried in the Church of Ireland, St Mary's Clonmel. I did also e-mail the manager of Watford Vicerage Road Cemetery re Catherine not sure if she will just send me back to HALS.
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Hi
Ray, the thought also struck me that W Goodman could be JV's brother. no way of knowing for sure though. As John V Goodman was in the 16th bt KRRC I have a feeling he would most likely have been part of the Church Lads Brigade, working for John Dickinsons & would have joined up with my Grt Uncle Jack They both lived in New Road.
Bg, hopefully the manager of Vicarage Road will be able to help without referring you back to HALS. :)
Maddie
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morning ..im sure i saw a W goodman in the military records on ancestry other night that could fit that incomplete W Goodman on the memorial ...i have a look now and see if i can find it again .
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i think could be the missing W on the war memorial ...
Name: William Goodman
Birth Place: Croxley, Herts
Death Date: 16 Oct 1916
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: Watford, Herts
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Norfolk Regiment
Battalion: 7th Battalion
Number: 12214
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre
Comments: M.M.
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Glad to see that you are all keeping up the good work. Sorry to put a spanner in the works re my stuff. I received this prompt reply amazing!
"Thank you for your enquiry, these are the details I have found from my records:
Catherine Goodman aged 14 years, Daughter of George Goodman (deceased) formerly of Rickmansworth, a farm labourer and Catherine his wife. Died Convent of Saint Vincent, Percy Road, Watford. Interred 19th February 1894 in grave number 215 K-Dedicated in Vicarage Road Cemetery.
The grave is an old 'Paupers/common' grave and therefore would not have a memorial marker on it.
Please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information."
I am beginning to wonder about everything now. It seems that there were more Catholic families in Rickmansworth than I first thought. This family may have been related to my ancestors.
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wow excellent !!! :) .....so wife is named catherine here ...
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Hi
I'm very impressed with Vicarage Road & that rapid responce, makes a very refreshing change.
I am absolutely certain that it is your Catherine despite the fact that they have the wrong name for her mother. Was she possibly Mary Katherine too. Your George was the only farm lab in Ricky at that relevant time.
It's possible that whom ever gave the information for the burial was mistaken with the names. It doesn't appear that Mary herself was still in England as she can't be found on the 1891 census. :-\
Please don't disregard this burial info, mistakes were made in many records.!!
Maddie
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Hi everyone
Just a thought regarding Catherine, if Mary had left George before he had died, he may have got himself another woman, or Elizabeth that reported his death may have not known Mary,and it may have been her that had the two children put into the care of the nuns. Or Mary was known as Catherine.
There must be some sort of admission and discharge books for these two children homes, they could hold the clue as to why the two children were put into the care of the nuns.
bye for now
Jackie
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Hi
I do agree with you Jackie with regard to why George & Catherine were in the care of the nuns but I think bg has tried to discover this info before, without success, or did I dream that. :)
There has been a fair bit of name changes in this family me thinks, George was Joseph on his marriage....... :o
Maddie
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it could be possible that mary his wife as a catherine ...as i stated before about mary k the daughter could be mary catherine rather than Katherine ...as i think ray said many people didnt know how to count or spell properly in them days ...so some things could be a bit out ...but this news is excellent ...although i dont think is connected to my goodmans i keep following it cos its so interesting ....i love a challenge as well so love to try and help ...i know b goodman said before not to feel sorry but to think i had everything there all for my research mapped out and you lot all dived in and knew straight away and pointed me there and easy for me to catch onto ...this has been a very big task for b goodman and a very long task as well .thats why im still here as i want to help ...im finding it hard with the brick walls bgoodmans had to face ...and im excited something new has come up...keep up the good work b goodman !!! youve got all us behind you :)
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Hi caz
Hang on in there because I feel it's quite significant that you can't find your George born 1844 to James the Blacksmith & we have this other George floating around Batchworth, who states twice on record that he was born Ricky, albeit of a slightly different age. :-\
One day the true facts will emerge. :)
Maddie
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maddie i know ...id love to be a relative after all this weve been looking into lol ... ive even shoeboxed some i found but think i might turn it some where else or be not significant .....i found a little george born in about 1881 he was born in ricky but lived his life from about 7yrs in another town well away from watford ... cant remeber if there was another son called george that was meant to if exisisted ith b goodman ? The birth date prob wouldnt of fitted anyhow ... just checking .
my brain is getting scrambled with all this i should write it all dow nbut been working from memory ... :(
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Thank you all so much it is so good to have your support and the fat lady hasn't sang yet! To recap;George (Joseph) Goodman Born: *? 1848 Rickmansworth
Died: 1888 Batchworth Rickmansworth
1871 George enlisted in the 34th foot (Cumberland) regiment on 10th of May at Westminster aged 22 years and 8 months. It states born in Rickmansworth, 5TH 4ins.
1875 He married Mary McCarthy R/C in Clonmel Ireland. He spent most of his army career in Ireland. His name is written as Joseph on the chapel entry, his father James.
1877 George was discharged from the army, however he was not due a pension therefore his records were destroyed.
1879 His first child Mary Katherine was born at Batchworth Rickmansworth. He was a general labourer.
1881 Census he was living at Bury Farm Cottage with his wife and daughter as an agricultural labourer again it states born in Rickmansworth.
1881 July his son George Joseph was born father’s name also given as George Joseph living at Batchworth Rickmansworth.
1883 His second son Hubert (my grandfather) was born living at Bury Farm Rickmansworth.
1884 Second daughter Theresa Gertrude was born living at Bury farm Rickmansworth
1884 No. 30 William Street Cashel Ireland Mary Carty (?McCarthy/Goodman) started paying rates. Mary (nee McCarthy) mother was named Margaret.
1886 A third daughter Margaret Phillis was born living at Bury farm Rickmansworth
1888 On March 18th George died of Fibroid Phthisis with Elizabeth Winfield in attendance at Bury Farm Rickmansworth. He was aged 39 years. Buried at Chorleywood Road Cemetery Rickmansworth.
1888 May 25TH Margaret Phillis died with convulsions aged 2 years at Batchworth when her mother Mary was present. Margaret Phillis is buried in the same cemetery, in another grave, also buried by Rickmansworth Union Burial Board.
1888 September 19th Theresa Gertrude died from Arthritis aged 4 years in Cashel No 30 Williams Street with her grandmother Margaret Carthy (McCarthy) present. She is interned in the Rock of Cashel. Theresa described as the daughter of a housekeeper.
1891 Census ?George (Junior) is living at 58 Queens Road Watford in St Vincent’s R/C home for boys.
1891 Census ?Mary Katherine (Catherine) is living at 64 Queen’s Road Watford at an R/C School.
1894 Death 16th Feb ?Mary Katherine (Catherine) died at St Vincent’s Convent Percy Road Watford. Buried at Vicarage Road Cemetery Watford.
1894 March 14th Mary Goodman (nee McCarthy) took an exam at The Rotunda Hospital Dublin for Midwifery. She enrolled on the register in 1904.
1901 Hubert her son enlisted at Clonmel for the Leinster Regiment.
1905 Rate book showing Mary Goodman living at 23 Dillon Street Clonmel.
1911 Census Mary is listed as a Private Midwife and her son Hubert is working as a Barman. He was in the army reserves at this time.
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hi everyone
Wow bgoodman what a posting, it is good to see it all in order, what was interesting to see was that Mary was absent for George`s death but was back in Rickmansworth soon after when her Daughter died. The big question is why did she take Hubert to Ireland and yet left the other two behind. Maybe financial she couldnt afford to take them all and as he would have been the youngest , that why he went with her. Have you tried looking at passenger lists (if they exist) from Liverpool or Holyhead in wales, to see when and how many times she went back and forth to Ireland and also who travelled with her.
Keep up the good work.
Jackie
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how aweful she lost all 3 daughters and her husband in a short space of time ... i think there was only 2 boys left then ? George and Hubert and Hubert in Ireland .... would mary be McCarty ? or is she deffo McCarthy ?
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Thank you both for your replies. I see what you mean jtas about Mary not being present for George's death while being present for her daughter's in May. She doesn't appear to be present either for her other daughter who died later in Sept, in Ireland, of that year. I find it hard to take in myself that Mary lost three of her immediate family in the year 1888. I did try looking generally at passenger lists before but didn't really come up with anything much. I must admit I wasn't sure what passenger ferry and what route to look up.
With Mary's off spring I did find a George Goodman on The Caronia, in June 24th 1923 (?junior). This person was born in 1881 aged 42 years. Liverpool England port to New York. I did discount it as my George (junior) would be only be 41 years as his birthday was not until the 4th July. It didn't give info as to where he was born. He was there again doing that crossing in July and August. I think he may have been working on the ship as a hairdresser. Unrelated, (but sometimes occupations are repeated in families), my dear departed dad was a barber and his sister trained to be a midwife at the rotunda but she dropped out. Mary Goodman (McCarthy) may not have been alive then. She is supposed to have died in the county home (mainly for poor people) in 1933.
Re her maiden name her family may have put the Mc in front of the name I am not sure about that. Equally the person writing down the name may have used the easier pronunciation. I believe that was common when Irish folk had to pronounce names that were not strictly of Irish origin. For instance my Dodgson ancestors, in Ireland on one census were referred to as Dobson! In the past when some of my older relatives from the countryside were alive I have actually heard them refer to that family as Dobson.
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Hi all
Had a day of visitors yesterday so missed these last posts. :o
Many thanks from me too for the time line bg, it does throw up some questions. ???
How & why did Mary start to pay rates in 1884 at 30 Windmill Street. Would she have had to be in Ireland at the time. !! I wonder if she had taken a newly born Theresa G back there to live with her mother.!!
It is a pity there aren't any passenger lists between UK & Ireland, at least, I don't think there were any kept. I'm wondering if Mary returned to Ireland in 1888 after George & daughter Margaret died, but why would she leave George & Catherine behind in Watford. :-\
Going back to look at it all again. :'(
Maddie
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i tried looking for passenger lists last night but kept getting everything coming from the USA to liverpool or southampton ...not sure if it stopped in ireland on its way ?....
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Hi 1783Caz and Maddie and thank you for your comments. I also got the same info as you re the passenger routes and I got the impression that they did stop in Ireland. Not sure about the 1923 Caronia that I mentioned previously though, as it may have been more like a cruise ship opposed to a ferry. I did find a much earlier Liverpool England Queenstown Ireland 10Th July 1871. George Goodman aged 22 years, (? George senior) Ship Algeria. Haven't kept exact reference although got the impression there wasn't any detailed info available about that George. My George (senior) already joined the army in May 1871 aged 22 years. Not sure if the military traveled back and forth on those ships also.
With the rate book for No. 30 William Street Cashew I wondered if it was actually Mary or Margaret again could be a mix up of names. Also I guess it was not unusual for family members (daughters and sons) to support their parents even though the off spring were married themselves. Maybe Mary paid the rates as her mother may not have had any other financial support and in turn the mother helped her with children. Perhaps Margaret the mother died herself by the time Mary returned to Ireland and therefore could not work and look after all the children. She seemed to take the Rotunda exam quite soon after the death of her child, if that is indeed her child (Catherine). She would of course have had to apply in advance to sit for that exam, (before disaster struck once again), I would imagine. I just hope my cousin can keep trying to unearth more records re Mary's application for the exam and any other personal info.
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Hi, once again while waiting for that miracle I am now looking at Goodman generally. Also, I am wondering again about the possibility of George (senior) being illegitimate. On the other hand if James, his father, did exist he could have been deceased early in George's life, detail which wouldn't have to be apparent on George's marriage cert in 1875. My grandfather Hubert referred to his father as being George on his marriage cert even though Hubert didn't have a father since he was about 7 years of age. Therefore, I wonder re the census how many woman as either head of household or living within a household, or indeed remarried, in the Rickmansworth area have a son George with them from 1851 onwards. Also, was there a death of a James who could be George's father from 1848 onwards. With that George b.1848 in Wargrave, Wokingham it appears he did have a father James who died later in 1848. Wargrave George's mother was Elizabeth!. That one will always niggle me. Looking at general settlement info I found an Elizabeth who appears to have come into the area alas from St Albans. Although with the little info displayed about the settlement it doesn't say where her son was born or his name. Does anyone claim ownership of this ancestor by the way?
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The date 1808 is far too early for my 1848 George unfortunately. I found this info re the Wargrave family and I will post it as it may tie in with some rootschat Goodman ancestors. Unsure about the reference of this info, I just probably put WITHERS in a search engine. James and Elizabeth are at the bottom of the sheet. I have their son's birth cert although didn't go as far as trying to find the marriage cert. However there is a lady in New Zealand who probably has even more info re this family. Had to retype the info as too big to post direct.
Berkshire Contents
1614-1950 Berkshire burial index
1618-1834 IGI marriages of WITHERS in Berks page 4
1640 in Chieveley, Berks., 1773 in Lambourn/Great Shefford page 4
1675 Little Coxwell page 8
1682-1778 Welford, 1808 Lambourn page 9
c1693 East Garston "
1694-1702 Hatford, Berks
1721-1812 Great Coxwell, Berkshire "
1750-1800 PCC (Probate court of Canterbury?)
c1750 Frances WITHERS d1759 m c1750 at East Garston John MAB ?
1763 Inkpen, Berks.
1781 Inkpen, Berks.
1791 Enborne page 9
1797-present Thatcham, Berkshire (6 to Australia in 1823) page 10
1825 John WITHERS, late of Greenham, near Newbury, Berks page 15
1841 census m LOVELESS "
1851 census "
1863-75 Newbury page 16
1865-1941 Reading "
1881 census: c1819Windsor,c1840Newbury,c1858Bucklebury,c1868Reading "
1800s Elizabeth WITHERS (Whistley Berks) m 1800s James Goodman page 17
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hi this may of already been seen ....
Theres a boy George Goodman ( or down as George Dooman ) in 1891 census hes living with other children ...im not sure if its the school as theres a girl called "catherine sullivan " whos 12yrs old (born:Grcenwich) and classed as the head ! ....
As he was originaly down as George Dooman i wonder if the person who had his name corrected on ancestry (margaret robinson ) knows anything on him ?
there as another little boy George Goodman i found other day who spent a brief time in Rickmansworth ...the family only stayed for about 4yrs and moved to Camden .But i think they were from Bedfordshire .
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Hi Caz
I have just checked the 1891 census and catherine sullivan is 42years old and is the head mistress of the boys school/home. It would be interesting to contact Margaret Robinson as she could have that vital clue we are hunting for. I dont have access to ancestry but i know that maddie does,or if you do perhaps you could contact her and see if there is any new information that be had.
Regards
jackie
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Hi all
As we know the George "Dooman" on anc is bg's George I'll be happy to contact the person who has corrected the census unless caz wants to, just let me know. I did check to see if the lady in question has a tree on anc but I can't find one.
The problem with looking at all Goodman's is I fear, going to confuse rather than help. Unfortunately it is a very common name, as I just happened to have confirmation of only this weekend. ::) I've been helping my cousin's wife to track her Grandmother & guess what, her name was Jane Goodman...... :'( I almost cried, at least I know they are no connection to the Ricky Goodman's as the family are all from the Hackney area. :)
We do have a James Goodman dying in 1878, presumably in Watford Workhouse as that's where he was in 1871 but he is James the Blacksmith. :-\
Maddie
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morning ...i left margaret robinson a message last night ...and shes got back to me ....
"Sorry Carol, I think I was looking for other Goodmans, and corrected the mistake because I saw it - can't bear to see mistakes left! "
shame ...
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Thanks caz, I had a feeling that would be the case.
Funny thing, I found a George Goodman working for the LNWR last night but it was late so need to do more investigation on him.
Will report back if I find anything. :)
Maddie
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Thank you folks, you are all really kind and I do appreciate your efforts in trying to help me. What a bummer that Ms Robinson didn't have some mind blowing info to offer. It was worth a try though and thank you for that 1783Caz. I see what you mean Maddie re other Goodman families, amazing about your cousin. On the 1911 Irish Census, Mary Goodman and my grand father Hubert, there is some scribbling out re the number of children born alive although I came to the conclusion that there was five. I, as you know, eventually found all their birth certs. However, I wonder if Mary had a child born dead/ premature also. I found a Watford reg birth entry for a Margaret born 1881 Dec 3a and a death cert for a Margaret Goodman Dec 1881 3a 270. Mary had George (junior) on 4th of July 1881. I suppose it is possible for her to get pregnant and miscarry a child prematurely.
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hi bgoodman ...it wasnt unusual for families in them days to try to have kids soon after a death of a child ...it was the thing as you know to have kids as soon as ...( or in my josephs case married within a year of 1st child prob to poor ) its actualy very possible to get preg as soon as youve had a child infact a women is very at her peek after having a child to get pregnant again as to what she is normaly ...( a) it happened to me after i lost my 1st stillborn ...(b) theres only 1yrs diff to me and my brother just about ...esp if a childs born earlier than expected ... :)
i to had a cousin ask me 4 months ago if her husbands goodmans are connected to ours ...totaly bent my head lol .
ive already opened a group on facebook on goodmans of watford ...anyone can join if they have a goodman in watford ,,the idea is we might find stuff that google etc doesnt give us ...the more the merrier.. im also opening a watford group of pics ive found ..i already run one for hemel ...called hemel hempstead ago ...its nearly due to open ....once thats up and going i will be starting opening watfords by end of next week ...lots of pics to view and everything will be cut into folders of diff parts ie: croxley green ,sarratt,watford town centre ,rickmansworth ...the lot will be in their on folders to view ...
All us different Goodmans pulling together makes me chuckle lol
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That is a great idea 1783Caz I will look into the Goodman site. I must also try that birth cert re Margaret Goodman, even though it may not give me much more info. If the birth proves to me my ancestor I will be able to go for the death cert. At least it is something to chew on for now.
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lets just hope it brings good news ...i might be going to london archives this month if things go well and works quiet ...if all goes well then i shall try and look for some bits for you whilst im there .fingers crossed.
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Thank you 1783Caz that is really kind of you. Maybe one day we will find our elusive George, yours and mine, even if they are not one and the same.
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if you dont mind me asking ...roughly how much does the DNA test cost to do ? i was thinking if its not to high then we might be able to do one with one of my male goodmans...if it is then cant see it happening esp this side of xmas ...
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Hi 1783Caz, no I don't mind you asking at all. It was about £105.00 with the 37 marker test and that was apparently slightly cheaper as there is a project going for Goodman. It would depend on the exchange rate with the dollar etc. If you can get a male Goodman to have the DNA test done I would consider forking out again also. It is with familytreedna an American company.
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oh thats not to bad ... was thinking it was going to be treble that phew! ....
getting a male to do the test isnt a problem ...does it matter which male ? as my brother is in direct line with the goodman males or we have an older cousin who comes from a female goodman ...does it make a difference who i was to use ?
Whats this project going for goodman ?
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Yes, it does make a difference it would definitely have to be from the direct male line. I think the project is about a Goodman person having a sort of clearing house site, as he appears to be trying to locate his family. I know that there has been a larger project by a National Genealogical group who did a world wide DNA test of different people. I would have to read it up again to recall the details exactly, although that last project is mentioned on the familytreedna.com site.
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I have sent off a copy of Mary goodman's photo to 'who do you think you are' magazine. It was the one of her in her uniform. Hopefully the editor may be able to enlighten me as to whether it was her housekeeper or midwife's uniform. Thanks for that suggestion jtas. Sorry also that you have had some disappointing news with one of your leads of late.
I haven't received anything back re the death cert for that Margaret who died in 1881. Although it does seem a bit of a long shot, given that Mary had just given birth on the 4th of July to young George.
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Hi bgoodman
Did you include the information about the photographer as that would give a lead as to what era it may have been taken. As i said to you i did find an obituary for him when i googled his name. I couldnt find any reference to him having any studios in Ireland.
Have you tried looking for a will for Mary , she does seem to be well off, training as a midwife must have cost money and then she probabley earnt a reasonable wage as a private midwife. I doubt if George senior ever had any money to be able to pay for her to become a midwife.
regards
Jackie
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did i give dates of photographer ? think i did ....i looked into it ...bg goodman how do we go about this DNA thing ? im going to ask my brother he is a freemason ( Is that what they are called from not entering census records ?) but my dad has other sons and there is also him too so 4 more for direct male line of blacksmith .....
the cousin i said about volunteered was one of my joseph goodman 1st grandchild ...but we can get it done from direct line ...ive not had much contact but i know they will be helpful in this sort of thing ...its funny co i only live a few blocks away ...just like maddies family with my goodmans ....im sure they were cousins somewhere along the line ....i dont like to throw this off line but i foudn a george goodman lodging somewhere just outside watford in about 1911 or later and he didnt know where he was born? i might of saved it but have to sort my ancesstry account out was debating to deactivate and move to national archives
bgoodman i will always look for you as its my concern now if ure one of us ...and DNA is the question
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Hi Jtas and 1783 Caz thank you for your replies. Oh stupid me, I didn't think to mention the photographer although I did mention when Mary McCarthy did her training etc.
With the DNA Caz I can send off for it when I have your male relative's name, the one who is a direct line from the blacksmith. When the swabs arrive I would then need either his address or your address to send the swabs to you or him or you could pick them up from me. With the other guy I had swabbed I sent him the envelopes etc to send the swabs on when he had done it. They do not need any further info about the person. They have my address my e-mail and my credit card details etc and I get the results by e-mail which I will then pass on to you also. With the guy I swabbed he was from Devon originally and I think Maddie said before that she may have ancestors from that neck of the woods. His father was a Henry Ernest born 1921 and his grandfather was a William Henry born approx 1890s.
I may have a gift for Maddie also as I received the death cert of Margaret, which unfortunately for me is not my ancestor. She is the daughter of Henry William Goodman, a Baker, Rickmansworth who was present at her death. Bless her she only lived 11 days. It doesn't say anything about the mother. She died on the 23rd of December 1881 from convulsions, premature birth. The Devon guy above seems to have the names Henry William also in his line. That is all the info I have on him as he is not interested in family history as such although said his family have lived in Devon for years.
My next disappointment was the Rotunda Hospital who stated that they had a look and they really have no further records on Mary Goodman.
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Hi all
Just to say I'm not at home at the mo so can't contribute with any F/H as I'm not on my own computer. :)
Will be watching with anticipation with regard to the DNA tests..........
Many thanks for the "gift" bg. ;) She was one of my Uncles family. Will check it all out when I get home.
Maddie
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hi b goodman just to let you know im still here ...just waiting on replies from my 2 possible volunteers ..ones my dad who id much prefer as hes more senior to the blacksmith line ...the other is my brother ... waiting for straight anwers ...being a im not in direct contact with my dad im waiting on a relative to answer if comes to i will just knock and ask myself ...just to cut the crap lol ......ive found from doing all this tree that there people out there with loads of info that can help so much but getting this info doesnt seem as much to them as it does to me .....ive seen families on ancestry with my direct line photos but wont share with me ...i have nothing .i have only been in contact with my dad past few yrs so i realy havent known anything or seen anyone ....hard work lol
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Thank you 1783Caz, don't worry too much on my behalf with your male relatives, you are doing your best and after all that is all you can do. I find it amazing that there are folk out there with photos etc connected with your ancestors and who are not willing to share with you. Also I realize, although it seems strange to me, that there are folk who are not interested in finding out about their families at all. Some folk even get an inheritance from distance relatives, in places such as Australia and still have no desire to seek out connections or history. As you know, here we are instead desperate to put the pieces of our ancestry together. When I think of James the blacksmith I imagine he would have been quite an important figure in a hamlet, such as Batchworth, Rickmansworth and possibly surrounding areas. Before the onset of the railway, when the horse and carriage were the main form of transport, I would imagine there was great need for skilled blacksmiths. Sad to think he ended his days in the workhouse having seemed to do such a vital job at the time.
Jtas mentioned looking for a will for Mary Goodman. I looked at the Irish Archives site and did not find any will for Mary. Although I saw that there were some Goodman women who made wills these were mostly from Northern Ireland. I wouldn't imagine that in the end Mary had any money left. She lived with my grand dad and his wife when she firstly became unwell. Apparently she was visited by some of her ex well to do clients, from the time that she was a private midwife. Eventually she ended up in a place that was basically a poor person's nursing home. It seems there was little security in those times money could easily disappear if your circumstances changed. At least in this present time, with the welfare state, we have some security should we become destitute.
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Jtas has looked up some stuff recently re my grandfather Sargent Hubert Goodman and I know that even he didn't leave a will. I remember my aunt having to write several letters on my my own dad's behalf re taking over the mortgage etc. My parents house was an ex service man's house, one of those built for the first world war soldiers. I think some people, in those times, believed that writing a will may tempt fate. I will be away for some time now and may not get to use the internet very much if at all.
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Hi all, still away although family history never far from my mind. Saw some goodman names on survivor lists at pear habour!
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Us Goodman are everywhere you look lol ....
ive been looking up my great grandmother jane trowles family who married joseph goodman past few days ...Blimey they go all the way back to 1690 in berkhamstead ...and guess whos name popped up when looking at relatives neighbours earlier ? Elizabeth Winfield ....is she the one who was with George when he died ?
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.... and .....
today I was looking up a Benning in Uxbridge and there was a WmG next door!
:o
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Oh Ray, don't bring in Benning's, I have some married to my family members...... ;D
caz, who was the Elizabeth Winfield you came across, might be worth a little further investigation. ???
Maddie
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ive been ttacing my grandmother jane trowes family ...(heaven knows why ive not paid much attention to her as she has loads of history for me and on my door step ) looking through her direct line i found we are a family with surname holliday in berko from at least 1690 ...posible links with the street name too .
whilst trying to find this link with the holliday family who had a well known shop in holliday street in berko.... i found another family tree on ancestry with my hollidays on it .
its called Jones - Winfield _ Branches and Roots
there is 3 elizabeth winfields on there ...of different ages ...
my brains taken so much in today im trying to work out where winfields connect to my hollidays .
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Hi caz
I see the Elizabeth/Lizzie Winfield's on the tree. The elder one in Mill End we did have a look at but there didn't seem to be any connection to the Goodman family, don't know about her daughter though, perhaps she knew George through her soon to be husband William Wilson. ???
Good luck with your Holliday research. :D
Maddie
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According to ancestry there were one or two Elizabeth around Ricky. That was the name alright with George when he died but of course which one.
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Hi all, hope this goes...
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Trying to post the chapel cert, would really like some help researching witnesses as I have not managed to get anywhere with them.
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I also had another quick look at Kevin Asplin's military site just to check if Michael Power enlisted in the 34th foot, Cumberland Reg, around the 10th of May 1871, when George enlisted at Westminster, but with no success. I noticed that both parties getting married are described under age as Full. I presume that means adult. If George was ?39 when he died in 1888 and Mary was ?23 in the 1881 census I expect that would be approx 9yrs difference. Mary would have been approx 17years at marriage.
On both chapel and registration entries Joseph is written although there appears to be a difference with the months, 12th of August or Sept 1875 at St Peter and Paul's R/C chapel, Clonmel, Co Tipperary Ireland. When my grandfather Hubert got married he named his father as George, not Joseph. On all Mary and George's children's birth registration entries George (father) is given as the first name. Grasping at straws again although as I mentioned any help with those witnesses would be gratefully received.
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Hi
Wonder why George was Joseph on his marriage cert. :-\ Could it have been an error by whom ever wrote the actual cert, if George himself couldn't read or write he wouldn't have known that it was wrong. Just a thought. Wish he had mentioned what his fathers occupation was. :) I presume one of the registrations was copied from the other. I'm not up on R/C marriages. :)
There are a lot of Michael Power's on the census, all born Ireland but it's pretty impossible to know if any of them are the correct one especially if this particular one never left Ireland. Same goes for Bridget unfortunately.
Have you been able to progress any further with the DNA. ?
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie for your reply. Excuse some of my previous posts as when I am away I find it difficult to post. Not just for access but also trying to use tiny phone screens. I must admit that am not great with technology at the best of times. Yes I see what you mean about the witnesses. I appreciate you trying to find them. Although I am also glad that you confirmed the difficulty in trying to research them. Sometimes I wonder if there is something I am not doing etc and it is good to receive the feedback.
The decision re DNA is really in the hands of 1783 Caz and her family at present, although I am still willing to pay for it should they agree.
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Hi
Wow, you use a phone for the internet, that's still beyond me, so well done. ;D ;D
That's very generous of you to be wiling to pay for another DNA test. Just shows how determined you are to find George's ancestry. If he turns out NOT to be the son of James the blacksmith & part of caz's Goodman's then goodness knows who he is, as we seem to have exhausted every other avenue. :(
Maddie
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Hi, thank u Maddie for your kind comment, although I must own up that I don't actually own the phone myself. I have left a comment on Co Tipperary forum re McCarthy because another rootschatter was looking for a Clonmel McCarthy. My brother doesn't think that there is a connection although it was worth a try. My brother also told me that he hopes to get some more info on Hubert, my grandfather, from the Clonmel Chronicle which untill now neither of us knew the chronicle existed.
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Hi all, my brother went to view the microfilm of the Clonmel Chronicle in Thurles, Ireland, today. He was very disappointed to find that the Library was closed for staff training. He wants to try again after Christmas. Although he hasn't actually said what the contents are I know that it is about Hubert Goodman, my grand father. I am not pestering him re the contents just yet as part of me hopes it may throw some light on George's family, rather than just about Hubert. I can live in hope a bit longer then. I guess.
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happy new year everyone ! :D
I have some good news ...word has got out round my family im doing the family tree and everyone wants a slice of it lol ...we spoke about B Goodman and DNA and my brother wants to do it ...hes the 6th generation in the direct male line of James the Blacksmith ..
ive been super busy visiting long lost relatives getting pics ..even got one of our Joseph Goodman who didnt return from ww1 and his wife in victorian clothing and her 2nd husband working on the old watercress beds ...ive even uncovered one that is thought to be our geoge goodman (born 1863)...
The Clonmel chronicle sounds intersting ...fingers crossed on this one ....
Has Georges birth certificate ever been ordered ?
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Happy New Year to everyone on this thread from me too. ;D
That's fantastic news caz & good on your Bruv. :)
Hopefully 2013 will be the year that BG finally discovers who her ancestors were, or maybe even weren't. ::)
Best wishes.
Maddie
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Happy new year to everyone and may 2013 be a good one for all us family history buffs.
sadly i lost my own dad on boxing day, i shall start again researching his family.
Caz is there any chance you can put the pictures of your James Goodman andthe other rellies on rootschats, it would be nice to see what they looked like.
Regards
jackie
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Hi and a Happy New year to you all also. Thank you very much 1783caz I am so delighted re the DNA news. I know that it hasn't been easy for you to get everyone on board. Also I am pleased that you are making such progress with James and your own family. James was once again on my mind recently when I saw the midwife program on TV when they referred to the lives of those in the workhouse. The other day I visited George (great grandfather) who died aged 39, buried at Chorleywood Road cemetery. I gave him a taking to about his elusiveness re his birth year, only joking. Thank you Maddie also for your support through all this. When you are ready 1783caz please let me know the full name of your brother and where to send the swabs etc. Once I have the full name I can order them. You may have to send me a private message as Rootschat is strict on confidential stuff like that. I only ordered the birth cert for the George Goodman born to James from Wargrave as the 1844 George didn't seem likely at the time. I ordered it to check out if the father was James, even though I knew Wargrave as the place of birth was probably wrong. I hope that we all have better luck in 2013 with our dear ancestors.
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Jtas now that you have announced your sad news I can mention that I was thinking of you just now also but didn't like to break confidentiality. Use this time out to be good to you. I wish you better luck in 2013 with your immediate family. Good luck also on Rootschat with their families, (your ancestors), when you feel ready to restart the search.
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Jackie
I am so sorry to hear your sad news & at this time of year. Although I lost my dear Dad back in 1975 I still miss him.
All the best.
Maddie
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Morning ....
Sorry to hear your sad news Jackie ...
I will upload pics to rootschat once i find out how to or where on here as im not too clever with navigating this site .... although the pics are only a couple and not of James Goodman but a possible George Goodman born 1863 and one of his sister Elizabeth ...
BGoodman will inbox you address ... :)
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Thank you 1783Caz. I am very pleased that you have managed to get this far, well done to you. I did receive your message in my inbox although I will need the first name of your brother also. When you can, please let me know that in my inbox again. Hopefully that will be OK with you and your brother as I am not sure the company would do the test with just an initial. Other than that no other info about your brother will be given to familytreedna. They will send the swabs to me and I will forward them to your brother. He has to sign a small slip of paper and state where his paternal and maternal ancestors came from ie England. I will also include a paid envelope so that he can then post them on to America. It can take weeks for the swabs to arrive. All the results come through an e-mail which can be viewed and printed as required. Really looking forward to getting the process started.
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1783Caz I managed to order the swabs without the first name the initial seemed to work OK therefore no need to worry about that. Fingers crossed and all that now. When I receive any info from them during the process I will let you know.
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hi there ...
where you mentioned my brother has to state where his paternal and maternal ancestors came from ie England ...would that be our furthest back Thomas Goodman ( the blacksmiths father ) born 1777 in Wiltshire ? and the maternal i take it will be my mums side ? of which originaly came from Limerick in Ireland to Marylebone in early 1900s ...or do i just get him to put Rickmansworth and London ?
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Thank you 1783Caz for your reply. I would put Ireland maternal and England paternal as he would have both mixtures in him. I think that info is just standard. In our case we are just looking at the male y chromosome at present. I suppose as in my cousin case he looked only at the mother's side as he didn't know who his mother's father was. My grandfather Hubert brought the child of his sister in law up. Lets hope we have none of that tricky business with our ancestors. My dad only found out that this child was not his real sister on her wedding day.
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Hi all, thank you 1783Caz for your most recent inbox message re your brother's name. Hopefully the company will be happy to continue with the initial as I already ordered. I did receive an e-mail confirmation of the order. Although it is good to have the first name just in case they ask for it at a later date. Thank you also for your humorous comment it did make me laugh. I am also looking forward to the arrival of those swabs.
My brother went to Thurles, Ireland today re info concerning my grandfather Hubert, born in Batchworth, Rickmansworth 1883, George Goodman senior's son. My brother firstly found info in a book that he bought, just by chance.
He viewed the microfiche of the Clonmel Chronicle, 1918. It appears to be a snippet from a letter that my grandfather wrote to his wife from a London Hospital. It states as follows...
Clonmel man wounded.- Mrs Goodman, St Mary's place, has received a letter from her husband, Sergt. Hubert Goodman, Leinster, Regiment, in which he states that his leg was amputated as a result of wounds sustained in the recent advance. He is at present undergoing medical treatment in a London Red Cross Hospital. Sargent Goodman who was in the reserve list before the outbreak of hostilities, has seen much service. He has been wounded twice on former occasions and was gassed at Armentieres. Prior to being called up he was a clerk in the employment of Messers Cleeve Bros, Clonmel.
We were aware that my Grandfather had his leg actually amputated in France but it appears that he was then brought back to the London Hospital to recover. He later returned to Ireland and that was the end of his army career. I already have a lot of info on my grandfather's army life although it would be interesting if they had mentioned what Red Cross Hospital in London. Presumably there was more than one. Perhaps records may state the whereabouts of his brother George Goodman (junior) re next akin in England. Not sure if he had lost contact with him at this stage or not.
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Hello all, pleased to say the DNA swabs arrived today. I posted them to 1783Caz's brother, who has kindly volunteered to do the honors. When he is done with them and the swabs have been sent off, there will be another bit of a wait. However, the results are sent by e-mail which at least cuts down on some of the wait. Fingers crossed for now.
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That is great news bg, ;D I shall cross everything in the hope that you get a good result.
All the very best.
Maddie
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Hi 1783Caz, did your brother manage to get the swabs done and sent off. I know that you mentioned that he had received them from me. If you know when he sent them I can try and ask about any delay familytreedna's end. Familytreedna usually notify me when they receive the swabs. From the last time I had swabs done I know that the process can take time although I had hoped that they would have actually received the swabs by now. I am also not 100% trusting of the post at present as my brother failed to get a card from me and likewise a work colleague.
Thank you Maddie for your supportive comment also. I was trying to give 1783Caz some space but the suspense got the better of me.
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Hiya ..the swabs have been sent back ... its just the waiting now ... i know what you mean about the suspense ...its doing me in .
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Thank you 1783Caz I have replied to your message box also. I am glad to hear that the swabs have been sent already. That was good of your brother to be so prompt. Sorry to stress but when you are eagerly waiting for something it sure does seem like a long time, doesn't it. If familytreedna fail to notify me soon, re the arrival of the swabs, I will send them a hysterical message.
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oh i know lol ...
hopefuly we might hear by friday ....how long does it usualy take ?
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Hi all, I am delighted to say that familytreedna have received the kit (swabs) today. I have just received an e-mail from them. They usually keep you up to date re the progress, before the actual result is complete. My fingers and even my toes are crossed for now.
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Wooohooo !!!! ;D
Blimey the pressure is on !!! im dying to know now .... ::)
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Oh Wow, the pressure is surely on now. ;D
Can hardly wait............ :D
Maddie
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Thanks folks, I am also constantly looking at my e-mails although I know the results can take a little while. My dear dad will be dead one year on the 7th of Feb. However, later on in 2012, my brother became a grand father to another Goodman boy. It really would be a very good time to find ancestors!
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the suspence is kilign me ....i could crush a grape !!! :o
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anyone heard anything?
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Hi, just checked my e-mails again and still no reply. I will check the actual site later as sometimes the company mention where they are at, in their process of checking.
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Hi all, I checked the familytreedna site and it appears that the basic 12 marker test will be available on the 6th of March. The 37 marker, which is the one that I purchased, is available on the 20th of March. I think that will be the date of the complete testing.
I was thinking of the George Goodman born 1844, James the Blacksmith's son, and the age difference with my George. My chap, according to his death, would be born approx 1848. It appeared that Mary McCarthy married when she was quite young and she may have met my ancestor sometime before marriage. If the 1844 George is one and the same it may be that the age difference would have had an influence on George not wishing to disclose his real age.
I know that my dear departed dad was conscious of the nine year age difference between my mother and himself. When they first met, according to my mother, my dad didn't tell her his real age for some time. She was only sixteen years and had to wait until she was twenty one before marriage. Of course full age on Mary McCarthy's (nee Goodman) marriage cert could have been 16 years as in 1875 it would have been OK to marry younger. Still, hopefully all will be revealed soon.
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Hi all, my brother managed to keep some letters from my (now departed) Aunt's house. She was the wife of George Goodman, George senior's grand son and my uncle. Unfortunately my uncle had no surviving children of his own, beyond the age of four years.
When my grand father Hubert was in Cork hospital in1954 his children, including my father, wrote him quite a few letters. My uncle appears to have taken those letters with him when he moved out of the family home. In one such letter my father refers to a gentleman calling to his place of work looking for relatives of Mary Goodman (nee McCarthy) from Cashel. Apparently this message came from America and the local constabulary were contacted. It appears from further letters that my grandfather was not able to reply in writing to their letters due to his condition.
What a bummer that was as it may have thrown more light on things. However it was interesting reading those letters as it gave some insight to how close the family were. I would never have thought my uncle who appeared such a joker would have any interest in family history as such. I wish I had racked his brains when he was alive.
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Hi
I wonder if the contact from America had anything to do with your Grandfather's missing brother George. Could he have died c1954 & whomever was trying to find relatives, especially as the police were involved. :-\
Perhaps a little more digging in the US round about that date might fetch up something.
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie for your reply. I will ask my brother what he thinks as he still has the letters. I was just reading them all at once one evening and I got the impression that it referred to Mary's McCarthy people. I know from what my father told me that my grandfather did try and find out what happened to his brother by posting his request in a newspaper. From what my dad led me to believe it was to no avail. Never thought at the time to ask which paper.
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Hi, today I went to the -Who do you think you are event in London. I noticed that there was a Wiltshire Family History Society stall. On their website www.wiltshirefhs.co.uk there are details of forth coming Family History days. One is in April at Swindon and the other is in June at Wilton. There are no admissions fees and according to their leaflets there will be quite a lot of information available on these days. I just thought 1783Caz may be interested as I know that you mentioned that was where your Rickmansworth Goodmans came from originally.
Now for my second piece of information, it may be time to get the grapes ready 1783Caz. Familytreedna are often unpredictable re the availability of their results etc. I got an e-mail to say that my dad's DNA had matched on the 12 marker test with another person. I was surprised as my dad had only matched with two others before and none of those were Goodman. My dad didn't even match with the Devon guy who had pages of matches (none Goodman) on the 12 marker test. Well 1783Caz, go ahead and crush just one grape for now because my dad does match with your brother at the 12 marker test. I realize that the 37 marker result will be the real identifier. However, at least there is hope now and I was overjoyed to see the first result matched.
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Hi there , thanks for the wiltshire info ...i didnt know there were events in London ...i must keep an eye out for the next one ...
Bit far for me to go to Swindon to an event though ...was thinking last month that i need to visit their history/archive place ... its just to far though .
Wow... the DNA 12 marker has matched !!! ...this is nail biting stuff now lol ...the suspence is killing me !!!!!
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I think we shall all be crushing more than just grapes if the 37 marker test result is also a match......... ;D
All fingers & toes are crossed for you both. ;)
Maddie
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Thank u Maddie for those kind comments and support.
My brother sent me an attachment with my father's letter to his dad, Hubert, who was in Shankil Hospital. My dad mentioned that he was asked if he knew of a Patrick Marks who married a McCarthy from Cashel. Apparently this inquiry initially came from America. My dad passed on my grandfather's address, (presumably Shankil Hospital, Co. Cork) to be given to the Cork police. My dad wrote that he hoped it was good news. It does look like it was concerning the McCarthy family in particular. Not sure if any McCarthy family remained in Cashel or whether there was any connection after Mary McCarthy married a Goodman.
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What a pity the letter was concerning your McCarthy family. Would have been good to have turned up a lead on your other George. :)
Maddie
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hiya ,
im anxious to know now !!! lol ...ive added familytreedna to my facebook ...
other day they put out a notice ...
Thank you for your patience as we work out the last kinks in the Family Finder build 36 to build 37 upgrade process. We have noted problems with some kits in the testing process. These kits will be re-run and added back into matching in the next week. Meanwhile, you may notice that some of your matches even in the immediate category are missing from your match list. If the data indicates they are accurate matches, they will reappear on your list once all the final adjustments have been made....i so hope it matches as it will put a long hard effort of searching into a new route ...and ive got loads ..it would be good to have a male off maddies side to DNA as well ...its to co-incidental all these Goodmans in one little area ( as it was once ) at the same time and hers lived in Talbot Road and mine in Redpale Road ( Redpale Road turned into Talbot Road) and both of ours living in New Road at same time ...being as we were cut off from our Ricky Goodmans after our Joseph moved to Hemel with his wife and shortly after died in WW1 ...i would love to know if theres any still out there but dont know how to go about it ?
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Hi
Unfortunately caz my interest in the Goodman's is only through my Mum's sister marrying into the family so I don't have any blood connection. As far as I can see it is just coincidence that the two families with the same name lived so close to each other. :)
I've checked my Uncles family back as far as I can & his Grt Grandfather was born in Chesham although I believe his father was born in Derbyshire.
There may well be some of your Goodman descendants still living in the area, trouble is it gets more difficult to find them after 1911. :)
Hopefully you have actually just found one............ ;D
Maddie
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Hi all, I agree Maddie that would indeed be good if there is a connection between my ancestors and my first love, James the Blacksmith, who was with me from the start of my research.
Thank you for that info 1783Caz, I have sent you a message to your in box. The familytreedna site seemed to mention rechecking with my other DNA tests also, not sure if it is something that they do automatically.
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Hi
I have been involved with my Baker/Taylor tree and have found that on thphie 19 June 1820 Daniel Taylor married a Sophia Goodman. One son was named in the 1851 Census as William Goodman Taylor aged 21. Do they appear in your tree anywhere. My address is colbak11athotmail.com
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Hi Colbak, thank you for your post and welcome. It is good to find another person with a Goodman connection. With my family tree I have not found any connection re other family names except for McCarthy. Although I would not be able to say for sure whether there is or isn't a connection. I am stuck re making any other progress re family members as I have not found a birth cert for my George. However, others reading this thread may have some connection with your Goodmans. The best of luck and maybe in the future our Goodmans may connect, who knows.
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Hi colbak
Is the marriage you speak of in St James Westminster. ? Can you give us a little more detail for the 1851 census if the family are together please as you don't say where your Sophia was born. The majority of the Goodman's featured on this thread are from Hertfordshire but if we can help with your line I'm sure we shall try. :)
Maddie
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Hi
Yes that is the one in Piccadily St James. Sophia was apparently born in Hatfield but lived in Leader St Chelsea with Daniel Taylor her spouse and children Daniel,Sarah,Sophia, William Goodman. Whether Goodman was her maiden name or she married and had a child hence William Goodman Taylor I don't know.
They would be my great great great grandparents.
Do you have her in your tree.
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Hi
Minor "alarm bells" as to interpretation.
1851 Daniel T wed to Sophia - William Goodman Taylor 21 Daniel Taylor 24
1841 Daniel T wed to Sophia - William Taylor 13 Daniel Taylor 15
William born after Daniel jnr and after "your" marriage 1820? ... and a Goodman?
Daniel jnr son of Daniel snr? Yes.
William son of Sophia? Yes.
Daniel father of William? Don't think so.
Sophia "A" marries a Goodman then Wm arrives then Goodman "leaves/dies/?"
and
Sophia "B" / Someone else, marries DanielT who has a similar story?
DanielT jnr born 1827 Wm Goodman born 1830?
So not DanielT snr marries Sophia Goodman C1820?
No.
Sophia A is Sophia B?
No.
Not for me.
Also looking at the "1800" marriage of Taylor Daniel v Sophia Goodman (that is how it is written)
Ray
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Hi
From the 1851 census I see Daniel Taylor, father, aged 69 born Kempton Hampshire, Sophia Taylor, mother, aged 56 born Hatfield Hertfordshire, Daniel Taylor, son, aged 24 born Chelsea & William Goodman Taylor, son, aged 21 born Chelsea.
The marriage for Daniel & Sophia is on Family Search.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKNZ-4PJ
I'm assuming William was given his mothers surname for his second name as there's no reason to suspect he was born out side of Daniel & Sophia's marriage. :-\
Unfortunately I can't see any records for Hatfield or near by on FS to find Sophia's parentage so it might be worth you contacting Herts Archives & Local Studies, (HALS)
As our Goodman's are in the Rickmansworth & Watford area of Herts I don't think there is likely to be a connection but you never can tell. :)
Maddie
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Hi Maddie
..... so why make the exception about naming one "supposedly later" child of their marriage?
R
... and the 1800 marriage?
:-}
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The discreprancy may be solved. In 1861 Sophia and William G are living as lodgers in College St(Now Elystan St) Chelsea and he is noted in the census as Sophia's Brother. Sophia and Dan had 2 daughters Sophia and Sarah christened in 1821 and 1824 in St Lukes Chelsea. They then had 2 sons Dan and William again christened in St Lukes in 1826 &29. They were still living in College St then.This William then turns up in 1861 aged 32 with his own family married to Anna. I think Dan snr must have died between 1851 & 1861 and Dan jnr moved away or died also-I've yet to discover which. William then turns up in 1871 with my great grandfather Frederick aged 5 and several other sprogs in tow.
After 1829 and up to 1851 Sophia was living with Dan snr in Leader St.(now Ixworth place) Chelsea.
Coincidentally I grew up in Chelsea in Sutton Trust buildings which is built in a triangle boardered by Cale St ,Elystan St and Ixworth Place. The streets where my grt grt grt grandparents lived
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Hi
Found Sophia & William G in 1861, I can't see where it says he is her brother....... :-\ They are both lodgers, he is aged 31 & unmarried, Sophia is aged 65 & a widow, look like mother & son to me. :)
Maddie
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Hi Colbak, have you tried looking on the London forum of rootschat as I noticed that there are some comments re Taylor families from Chelsea. There was a Sophie Goodman in Watford Union Workhouse in 1871, which I know is a later date than the period you are referring to. There were also some males named William Goodman in Rickmansworth. Do you know if your ancestors where ever in Hertfordshire.
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Hi B Goodman ....
thanks for your message i did see it but not had chance to reply as been so busy ...i havent even looked at family treedna ...is there any news yet ? im busting to know ? lol .... ;p
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Hi 1783Caz, it is indeed frustrating this wait. I received notification that the Y-DNA37 test, Y-DNA26-37 Markers is due now on the 29Th of March and a test Y-HAP-Backbone is due on the 22ND of April!. I emailed the company and asked why this backbone test was done as I hadn't had this with the previous DNA testing. Also mentioned about the new delay with the results.
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Thanks for the reply. Sophia was born in Hatfield in 1796 and married a Daniel Taylor. They lived in Chelsea having children Sarah Sophie Daniel and William Goodman Taylor. WGT is who I thought was my grt grt grandfather but I'm not so sure now as William G was living as a lodger in College St Chelsea with Sophia in 1861. My William was living in Lower George St Chelsea at the same time so must conclude that they are not the same person and that I dont have a Goodman in the family history. Its a shame cos I'd got quite attached to Sophia and Daniel snr.
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Oh dear colbak, well at least you have discovered your mistake & not to much harm done. :)
If you do find any Herts ancestors come back & I'm sure we will help you if we can. ;)
Good luck with your research.
Maddie
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Hi Maddie. Have you seen the 1861 census with Sophie and William G? Where it shows Sophie as a widow are you able to decipher the word underneath?
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Hi colbak
I am pretty sure the word under Widow for Sophia is Unmarried for William G, have a look at the rest of the page for comparison. He seems to be a messenger at the War Office.
Maddie
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Thanks for that input Maddie. I can. see that now. Sadly and conclusively he's not mine. Back to the drawing board for that side of the family. Will have to cut out quite a bit of the tree now. It just goes to prove that this geneology process is not easy when your parents have the names Baker and Taylor
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The best of luck colbak, I know how difficult it is with fairly common surnames but you never know something may turn up. Shame we didn't find another Goodman also.
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Sophia's maiden name was definitely Goodman and the son she had was Wiliam Goodman Tailor.
The marriage between her and Daniel took place on 19th June 1820. She was born in Hatfield so have you been able to fit her anywhere into your tree.Sadly she's no good to me any longer >:(
Cheers
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Hi colbak, thank you for that information. I am trying to establish a link through DNA with 1783caz. My tree hardly exists at present. It may be worth looking again if I can somehow move forward.
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hiya just had a nose at british postal service appointment books and seen a George J Goodman in 1922 in London ...26641/21= (minute number ..whatever that is ?)
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Thank you 1783caz for that information. I wonder what the initial j is. I have not heard of that postal book as a potential FH source of information before. It would be good to know also if any other roots chatters have got information from this source.
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hiya ...i never knew it existed until i read about it on some website ... i find it easier to get into it by googling postal appointed services and a known website has its records ...i wouldnt know how to find it otherwise ...makes me wonder what other stuff they have in there that isnt displayed ?
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Hi, thank you for my inbox message and for your last post. I had a look on google also for information. There is a mention of the book that you were referring to and also that you need a sub to look further with ancestry. Not sure if it is an extra sub that the person is referring to or whether the list is all the info that they actually have. Some posts from other researchers suggest looking at the post office archives concerning postal workers. Although the person mentions that the information they found related to the position within the service rather than personal details about the employee. Others suggest looking at the London Gazette archives. I know that sometimes an appointment with the postal services can be published in newspapers listing whether the person won the position by a competition or by appointment. I found info on newspapers concerning my mum's ancestors this way. I had a look today at the Gazette archives 1922 (online), although I only found a mention of other Goodman names. There was a G. G Goodman but I didn't find any George J. Goodman. I agree there must be lots of stuff out there but I suppose it remains to be put on computer, probably by volunteers.
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Hi all, I am delighted to say that there is a 37 marker match with 1783caz' brother. The backbone test is still not due until the 22nd of April. Apparently the backbone test tells of the paternal line's deeper history and traces back to ancient times. It determines which major branch of the YDNA test the paternal line belongs to.
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Hi again just to add a bit more re the significance of the 37 marker test.
37/37 a perfect match shows that a common ancestor is shared between 1783caz's brother and my father. I found it all a bit confusing at first although from what I have understood ...
There is a 50% chance that the most recent common ancestor lived no longer than 2 generations, (25-30 years per generation). Most recent generation of a male's paternal heritage.
90% chance that the most recent ancestor lived no longer than 5 generations.
95% chance no longer than 7 generations.
I know that you can do further marker tests although not sure which would be the most beneficial.
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Im lost for words lol ....
and a perfect match !!! ...i must admit i dont quite understand all percentage with the generation bit /years ??? not sure what thats indicating as such .... where abouts the common or most recent ancester is in my tree ?
strengthens my theory on the goodmans in ricky lol ....
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Congratulations to both of you, now can Caz confirm what information she actually has on George Goodman (senior) so you can work out what relationship there is between the two families. Has anyone found his baptism yet, i will keep looking on find my past.
Regards,
Jackie
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Thank you for your input Jtas and 1783caz. Thanks also Jtas for your offer to look up baptisms that is really appreciated. I have left you a message in your inbox. I wonder why the DNA is only 95% rather than 100%, re the 7 generations part. Is the 5% the margin of error and is it significant. The blacksmith James had quite a few children giving him grand children who married and so on. My dad was in his eighties when I did his DNA test. With the generation thing 1783caz and providing George is the 1844 George, who would have been his first cousins.
Also could the same family (the blacksmith) had two George Goodman births, one in 1844 and one in approx 1848 (not registered). On the other hand could George be the son of an older child of the blacksmith. Sorry to be pessimistic but I still cannot get my head around the precise age given at George's army entry which matched perfectly the age given at death. I know that the census with the bear pub and the 1881 census didn't match an 1844 birth or an 1848 birth. I realize also that our ancestors were not always sure of their exact ages etc but it seems a bit strange to lose 4 years. I would imagine it would be more usual to lie about being younger not older. Still, for all that I really am delighted that there is a link.
I mentioned before that George Joseph's (junior) birth cert had father's name as George Joseph also. I wonder, if it would be worth my getting George's 1844 birth cert just to establish if the middle name was added. However it may have been just a typed error on George Junior's birth cert after all. I take it you 1783caz or another member of your family haven't already got the birth cert of George 1844.
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Oh WOW, I am so pleased for you, I have to admit I don't understand all the jargon concerning the test but there doesn't seem to be any doubt that your George is the son of the blacksmith James ;D
I don't think you need worry about his age discrepancies as they seem to happen all the time in my family. :D
Still haven't found his baptism so may be he never was.
Good luck to you & caz, you can have lots of fun comparing ancestors now & if you want any help just shout, between myself & Jackie I'm sure we can help.... ;)
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie I was really pleased to see the 37 match come up too. I am beginning to see now that you are right, the age discrepancies may not be all that important after all. I have had experience, as you know, that even the printed certs can be wrong. Especially when you think of how I would have discredited the death of Catherine (Mary Katherine) as the cert had her mother's mother's name as Catherine instead of Mary etc. Luckily other factors existed to prove she had to be one and the same. That was of course all down to Jtas pressing on with that one. Equally, with my mother's ancestors there was a different spelling of a surname etc.
Not sure what further upgrade of the 37 test would prove. Whether also if it would be worth trying to test another Goodman branch from Rickmansworth. Should there be any direct lines living today of course. I know 1783caz mentioned this to you before re your Goodman connection and if I remember you said your connection was just by a member of your family marrying into Goodman.
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hiya , so i take it we think bgoodmans George seniors father or grandfather is the blacksmith ? ? i dont actualy have his birth certificate ...and i havent done any of my grandparents siblings lines as ive been having a break from it all ...but i will try this eve and get some done ...George 1844 though i remembered i looked and couldnt find anything on him ,he was a tough one ...seems he totaly dissapeared of the face of the earth ??? Blimey im like a dog with a bone now lol ....ive got to crack this ... might be worth finding out what other test if any will be of use ....Ive got a feeling Maddies Goodmans might be connected as its very odd they lived in Talbot Rd ,where mine lived in Redpale Road (redpale later become talbot ) and both of ours lived in New Road ...
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Hi all,
I recently done an online course looking at parish records and one of the things we looked at was mutiple baptisms. Many people were baptized as a job lot, even years after they had been born, i found an example in my own tree where online they had put the name of the first child only, so when i looked at the orignal record i found that three children had been baptized, of which two were twins. Therefore, i wonder if George was baptized at some point with his brothers/ sisters especially if his father was a journey blacksmith and they had been travelling around alot while they were small. I will have another look on findmy past.
Regards.
Jackie
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Hi
Sorry to say, I know my Goodman line has no connection to George etc & yes the connection to me is only through marriage so no blood line at all. :-\
If you need to run through the census again for all the Goodman families just shout & we can try to sort them out.
Maddie
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Hi all, that is very interesting Jtas re all the names not being listed. Well done to you for finding the time to do and complete the online course. It sounds as though it was worth it.
I remember reading some time ago that some of our ancestors had christenings done as a job lot. However, I expected all the names to appear for that year when an initial search was done. It goes to prove it is always better to look yourself at the original document.
1783caz that would be correct George senior is likely to be the 7 year old in the 1851 census with his father the blacksmith James. I did wonder if James, the blacksmith's son who was 10 in the 1841 census could possibly be the father of George senior. James junior would be 17 or 18 in 1848 which is the birth year I calculated from George senior's death age (39) in 1888. Of course that could have been cancelled out if it had only said father's occupation on George senior's marriage cert.
Do you know if the son James Goodman married a lady called Louisa and later had a son George himself. I can see a family in the 1881 census in Batchworth. Is that James 1783caz's ancestor. Also what is Louisa's maiden name. I couldn't find a marriage for those two. I did send off for 1844 George's birth but stipulated that it should have the full name George Joseph Goodman. I may later order it at just George although I was interested in cancelling out whether George senior was given both names at birth like his son. Especially with the marriage cert in the church stating name Joseph and the registered cert stating George as the first name.
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hi there , yes that all makes sense to me ...im still trying to get my brains round it all ...not had time to do the siblings lines as going away to cornwall for the week early tomorrow ...James junior had a son "George " who is my 2nd great grandfather born in Batchworth Heath in 1863 ( hes the man that bought me to this site lol ) .... i now have a picture of him and find it very uncanny how he looks like my 1st grandfather ... James married Louisa who was Louisa Gristwood by birth ...i have various certificates for my direct line ...inc their marraige certificate ...
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Hi caz
Purely out of interest did James & Louisa marry in Harefield, I know it says Uxbridge for the registration district on Free BMD. Where the witnesses to the marriage any one significant to the family.?
Have a brilliant holiday in Cornwall & hope it warms up a bit for you. :D
Maddie
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Hi 1783caz, do enjoy your break in Cornwall. Maddie asked some interesting questions re Louisa and James as the marriage cert may have information that could help to make further connections. When you do get some time it would be good to pick your brains some more.
Not sure if I have understood correctly re your grandfather and great grandfather etc.
There is your dad... My dad is John Goodman
There is your grandfather.. My grandfather is Hubert Goodman
There is your great grandfather George Goodman,Louisa's son. My great grandfather George Goodman
There is your great great grand father James Goodman *My great great is James Goodman
*There is your great great great grand father James Goodman (Blacksmith) (Blacksmith)
Therefore if I have understood this correctly your great grandfather George Goodman, Louisa and James son, would be a first cousin to my grandfather Hubert Goodman.
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Looking good to me, your Hubert & caz's George would have been cousins...... ;D
Maddie
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Thanks for confirming that Maddie and I got your reply in my inbox also. Therefore 1783caz's George, her great grandfather, had a son who is 1783caz's grandfather. I take it that 1783caz's grandfather is my father's first cousin. If only my dear dad was alive and well enough to receive this information. Also his departed brothers and sister, including my uncle George Joseph Goodman, who all died without knowing their relatives. However, I have a brother and cousins who are interested in finding out more which means a lot to me.
Years earlier I had reluctantly given up on James the blacksmith having firstly being trilled at discovering him and then not being able to make a pure connection to George. I mentioned before that Jtas was convinced that James the Blacksmith was the one and I am waiting for her to say told you so.
Having had to give up once on James I was reluctant to really believe in the possibility again. Therefore, initially when I found the result of the DNA information it was almost inconceivable, to be back again from where I first started.
The strange thing is my family didn't appear to know where in England my great grandfather came from. They were even a bit vague about my grandfather being born in England. The only reason I came to Watford, Hertfordshire was because a lady next door to my uncle George Goodman mentioned applying for work here. When questioned and questioned my family at first thought my great grand father came from Reading or somewhere that begins with R. Who would have thought Rickmansworth where my children went to school etc. My son even did a project on the gravel pits which are now the lakes. One of which is where Bury Farm Cottage once stood.
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evening ...
thankyou both ...
Right 1st thing is Maddies question about the marraige certificate ....Its says Parish Church in the parish of Northwood ...in the presence of Edward and Elinor Gristwood , if anyone wants to see it i can email it to you ? its quite possible they were wed in Harefield after all thats where they were known to be living in Scrubs Lane ...
My father is Colin Goodman
My grandfather is William Goodman (born Joseph Goodman but he changed his names round )
My x1 great grandfather is Joseph Goodman
My x2 great grandfather is george Goodman
My X3 great grandfather is James Goodman
My x4 great grandfather is James Goodman the blacksmith
so do we now know where BGoodmans George fits in ? my brain isnt working today lol ...
It is amazing the way some of us have done full circles on where our ancestors have lived ...my brother was going to buy the watercress beds in hemel a few years back and since i started this last year we found out my grandfather used to work on them ,we never knew anything about him or of his existance ...now we know weve still got some Goodmans in watford ..be interesting to find some more as someone must have pictures etc of the older goodmans ...
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marrraige certificate of louisa and james
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George goodman born 1863
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Good evening to you too. That picture is so amazing 1783caz thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you also for posting the marriage cert.
Just when I thought I had sorted re where we connected. I will have to look at it all again. I guess I am much older than you which may point to why you seem to have more generations than me. Besides the fact also that my dad was 85 when he died and I guess your male line had children younger. My dad was nine years older than my mother. I am sure we will get there eventually.
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hi there ,
yes you guessed right i am younger at 38yrs and my father being 64yrs...my 1st grandfather william (joseph) born 1913 didnt have children till later in life after he served in ww2 in 1948 .
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Hi all
What a lovely photo of your James caz & thank you for the marriage cert info, Northwood is not to far from Harefield so that makes sense & the witnesses were Louisa's family. :)
Have a great time in Cornwall, a lovely place with lovely people, my son in law is one of them.. ;D
Maddie
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good evening to you all,
What a lovely picture, does he look like any of you Goodman`s of todays generations? You also forgot to extend the tree by the next generation back, Thomas and Ziylphia Goodman the parents of james, the blacksmith. Somewhere in my notes i have the information of when they got married and maybe who their parents were. At least now you are back to the 1770`s or there abouts. This has been certainly an interesting thread that we have pursued at from all angles, bgoodman dont give up on finding out about the catholic homes that the two children were left in, you never know some new information could turn up like an admission and discharge book.
Bye for now
Jackie.
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Hi Jtas, good to hear from you and thank you for your support. Now if I can check this out again. Unsure if cousin etc is the correct terminology.
1783caz's brother Relates to My brother's grandson
M. Goodman. 5th cousin J. Goodman(baby)
Colin Goodman. 4th cousin George Goodman
Joseph (William) Goodman. 3rd cousin Hubert Goodman
Joseph Goodman. 2nd cousin John Goodman
George Goodman. 1st cousin Hubert Goodman
James Goodman Brother George Goodman
James Goodman. Parent James Goodman
Thomas Goodman. Grand father Thomas Goodman
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hi bgoodman
how many huberts do you have in the family? also why is caz brother related to the grandson and not directly to you? now the dna has proved that you are connected via your dad, then you have his dna as well so that would mean that caz and you are related.
Look forward to seeing you soon, i will send you an email with some other info i have.
Bye for now
Jackie
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Hi Jtas, thanks for your post. My brother Hubert is called after my grandfather Hubert. I tested the male YDNA as it remains almost the same down through the generations. I am therefore just looking at the male side to try and make it a bit easier to understand. I know what you mean though about the relationship with the female side, it exists also but not that true a test for DNA proving. Although as we know the result already now the relationship would be the same for 1783caz to the baby J. Goodman as it is with her brother 5th cousin. I am not even sure that i am working out that single male line correctly as yet. I feel as if i am desperately trying to make sense of it myself.Once that aspect is sorted maybe we can look at where everyone else including me and 1783caz relates to each other. If you or any other roots chatter wants to put it down a bit clearer I would be more than pleased.
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Hi
I have been trying to work out the relationship between yourself bg & caz, by using my own tree & the equivalent of my kin on the relationship calculator I think caz is your 3rd cousin once removed. I might be wrong but I tried. ;D
Maddie
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Hi, thank you for that Maddie. Saves me muddling through a chart i have discovered. There is a chart about kin referred to on Wikipedia. I haven't figured out yet how to use it though.
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Hi all, I have sent an enquiry form into Watford Museum to try and view any James Goodman workhouse records that they may have. I mentioned James Goodman as i know he was an inmate in the workhouse in 1871.
I have also sent an email to Vicarage Road Cemetery to see if they have a record of his burial. I noticed that there is a James Goodman who died March quarter 1878 in Watford aged 78.
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Hi all , wow im glad BGoodman you can make sense of the line as it frys my brains lol ....
Just a quick one for now as got to unpack ...
I went to Watfor Museum last year to check out my James in the workhouse ...they got the only records out that they have preserved and we couldnt find our James in it ...they advised to get his death certificate to see exactly where he died as thye havent got his death in the workhouse ...i didnt get certificate as this was at the time of everything going mad on my tree and having info overload lol ...
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Hi 1783Caz and welcome back. I hope that you enjoyed your break in Cornwall.
I wouldn't say that I make sense of everything just yet but I am working on it. Maddie has been a great help behind the scenes. I did confirm that the 1844 George is just George, not George Joseph. He is 100% James and Sarah Goodman's (nee Hansted) son. The registrar did ring me because I stipulated that the cert should state both christian names before considering to send it to me. He cancelled the order but said he would reissue it if I wanted it again.
I expect I may not do any better than you did with the museum. I vaguely remember, in other posts, you saying that you already went there. Now I am thinking that perhaps it would be better to order the death cert of James Goodman, aged 78, who died in Watford. This cert would give me his correct address. Also it may give an actual date to look up in newspapers. Mary Katherine (Catherine), my gran aunt was listed in a newspaper which Jtas found. The school information confirmed it was her. I was then able to use that info to look for the burial place.
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Hi B,goodman,
Just a quick thought, if george converted to being a catholic so he could marry mary , perhaps he had to take a catholic name hence that could be where Joseph comes in. It stands to reason that when he had his own son that the child was given the same name as was tradition in those times.
I hope you have some success with the death certificate, it will be interesting to see who reported the death, you never know it maybe george or mary, that would be a good one to connect them together.
Look forward to seeing you soon,
regards, Jackie.
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Hi, thank you Jtas for your post. I did wonder about Joseph instead of George. Apparently Joseph is not predominantly a catholic name. Especially not so in that era as folk generally seemed more religious than now. The middle name could have been given at C/E baptism, confirmation etc. My cousin was unable to locate any catholic adult confirmation/convert. 1783Caz has also got Joseph in her James (Junior) line. Having reference to George on the cert for James would be something alright but alas i feel unlikely. I will take a trip up to the reg office for a form re the death. Sending it off is the cheapest option.
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Hi all, I sent off for the death cert of James yesterday. James Goodman (the blacksmith) from Rickmansworth estimated birth 1801. I am almost sure that the 1878 Watford death is him. I had a look at the burials today at Watford Library. There is a James Goodman aged 78, Union House Watford (the abode), buried on Jan 4th 1878 ceremony by John Ricketts. Hopefully the death cert will mention his previous occupation as I believe there was another James around that time married to an Elizabeth. It doesn't say where 1878 James is buried but it is listed in the parish of Rickmansworth book. Perhaps he is in Chorleywood Road cemetery. I have just received a reply back from Watford Vicarage Road confirming that James was not buried there. No reply from the museum re any records. I may try Rickmansworth Cemetries via three rivers council again as they were very helpful for George. Admittedly, I had more info to point them to the right cemetery etc. Maybe worth a shot later.
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Uh oh , were on the chase again lol ....
I think my Goodman lot had a lot to do with All Saints Church in croxley green ? maybe that is where James is buried ?
Or could he of gone to harefield to die where his son James was living with Louisa Gristwood ?
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Thank you 1783caz for your reply. I am glad to say that the death cert arrived today but of course it doesn't throw any more light on where James may be buried. It is worth a shot 1783caz looking into your mentioned places. I guess Croxley district would come under three rivers also.
James actually died on the 31st of Dec 1877, Union Workhouse Watford, but he was registered and buried on the 4th of Jan 1878. Someone named Geo Mount ?Maiter or Master, Watford Union Workhouse is entered- Under Description of informant. He died of Bronchitis. He was aged 78 years. Under Rank or Profession Blacksmith is written. So far so good....
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Hi, trying to post details...
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Hi again I am not very good at this but here goes, the informant ..
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Hi
"my Goodman lot had a lot to do with All Saints Church" ?
Would you expand (& remind) ?
Ta
R
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Hi all
Pleased to hear you received James's death cert bg. I wonder if he was returned to Ricky for burial as it's in the Ricky book. There is no cemetery at All Saints, at least I never knew one. :P St Mary's was closed by then so he could well have been buried in Chorleywood Road. :-\
Keep up the good work.
Maddie
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Hi everyone, thank you for your posts. Good to see Ray back on board also.
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Sorry, me again, I was trying to post the witnesses of James Goodman and Sarah Hansted's marriage cert. Married on 2nd December 1826, parish of Rickmansworth, married by bans by Edward Hodgson, Vicar. It looks like both parties wrote their signature as an x. The first witness appears to have the most difficult name to decipher. Could it say Henry S Pearce, any suggestions? The other witness, the next name part is missing on my post unfortunately, (several attempts at posting). It should say Louisa Ann Wallington (?Bryant). Not even sure if these witnesses were even well known to the couple.
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Hi
;D ;D I haven't been anywhere, really. Still reading every word.
Louisa Ann Wallington Bryant 1810 - apparently dau of Richard Bryant 1765 and Martha Wallington 1777
Young witness? Traceable parents Rickmansworth.
[Some] Wallington and Pearce families lived ........................... Woodcock Hill [1841]
and a couple of dwellings away from James n Sarah in 1851
Henry Pearce maybe the one who m1828 Rebecca Gates.
Ray
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hiya , maybe im wrong on the all saints then ...im not to hot on the church things ...
Ive looked up Geo ( informant) on the death certificate and he was Geo mount the workhouse master ...
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Hi, firstly a big thank you to Ray for making all those connections. I didn't think of neighbors at all as being witnesses. I was only thinking of family members or the wider family. I suppose in the past it was more common for neighbors to be seen as close family friends.
I was once again getting boggle eyed at the library today. I noticed that the parents of James Goodman, Thomas and Zilpah (nee Harding) married on the 3rd of August 1795, had witnesses William Collier and another name which I couldn't read. I think the first name was William. Having received the maiden name of Zilpah from Maddie I was intent on finding the marriage and baptisms. I found baptisms for their children Sarah, Mary, James, William, Harriett and another Sarah.
I also found on another cert that a Thomas Wilson widower married Francis Harding 26th of May 1805, with one of the witnesses being Thomas Goodman, the other looked like Agnes ?Corbert. Not sure if there is any connections there but it does look a bit likely.
Well done 1783caz on confirming that Union Workhouse name, it is difficult sometimes to be sure of the handwriting. That hasn't changed over the years then. Thank goodness we can use a keyboard now.
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Hi Bgoodman,
The second witness is Willam Halsey and he is actually a witness at quite a few weddings that are recorded on the same two pages of the book. Probably he worked at the church, maybe a grave digger or the sexton or he was just a popular person that had to be invited to all the local weddings.
Did you also find that Thomas Goodman married again in 1833 to a Mary Pearsden.
Look forward to seeing you soon,
jackie.
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Thank you Jtas for that info re the witness. I wasn't aware when Zelpha had died. Also I hadn't realised that Thomas remarried. Did Mary and Thomas have any children together?
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Aha! (or not)
I don't know that this will help, but here goes........
"Rickmansworth" in 1841.
Horn Hill/Shire Lane/Rickmansworth Lane all "Maple Cross"("GoldenCross"?)
Isaac Halsey is running the Dumb Bell Inn and just up the road is St Paul's Church
( address now Rickmansworth Lane, Horn Hill, Chalfont St. Peter, SL9 0RG )
Pic here = http://www.chalfontstpeter-pc.gov.uk/religion.html
Isaac has a son William (too young?).
Jackie, would you confirm date / church / "conductor" of the WmHalsey witnessed marriage(s)?
Ta!
Ray
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hiya , its mary purserler thomas goodman married after zilphas death ...as far i i know they didnt have any kids together ...
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no more info to give ,but just wanted to say i finaly spent the day in rickmansworth yesterday and visited the three rivers museum ,not much in there to help me but saw 2 goodman names on a war thing and also 3 goodman names on the st marys church yard war memorial ... finished the day with a coke and gammon & chips in The White Bear pub ...George Goodman wasnt home on this occassion lol ... will be visiting again ...was hard to get my bearings on directions after so long of seeing everything in books ... but loved the area ... :)
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Hi all, thank you Ray for that post re the places in the 1841 census. It does help by making it seem more real when you can place the ancestors and their neighbours to a specific location.
1783caz that it so good to hear that you went to the White Bear in Rickmansworth, walking in the ancestors footsteps. I'm afraid poor George is more disposed with, (at Chorleywood rd cem), than indisposed. For some reason I thought you knew the area quite well. I must say I have never noticed that church yard memorial. I must take a look sometime.
I did find the marriage on microfilm for Thomas Goodman (widower) to a Mary ?Pursler (Spinster), on the 13th of October 1832 at St Mary's parish Watford. Witnessess Henry Brown and Daniel ?Pafre. Couldn't quite make that one out. How do we know that it is the same Thomas. I didn't see any mention of Rickmansworth.
Waiting for ancestry to check out 1783caz's tree, l was informed that an email would be sent out to me (twice) as I have forgotten my password. In the meantime I went on the site at Watford library. I was able to view some of the public trees. One of the trees, Taylor family, have information about Thomas. It would appear that Thomas may have been married to Mary from Shrewsbury 1787, the old dog, before marrying Zelpah. True to form he doesn't appear to leave much time before marrying Mary Pursler when Zelpah dies. This tree lists all Thomas and Zelpah's children as follows,
Sarah 1796
Mary 1799
James 1801 (The Blacksmith)
William 1804
Harriet 1806
Sarah 1809
John 1812
George Hales Slooper Goodman (1814-1873)
Maria 1816
Robert 1819- 1877
Henry 1822
and parents of Zelpah, James Harding and Elizabeth long.
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Hi all, I have looked at the 1841 census where Thomas Goodman, James's father, is living with Mary his wife in 1832. It actually says Mary was born in Shropshire, Shrewsbury. I estimate her birth date to be 1777. She may have moved to Watford where she married. Therefore it is a bit unlikely that Thomas had another Mary as a wife also from Shrewsbury in 1787, (with Zelpah sandwiched in between). Maybe not such an old dog after all, except that for an older guy he managed to find a nice young bride. This information re Mary 1787 marriage was listed on one of the public trees on ancestry. The census also confirms that Thomas was born in Rushall Wiltshire.
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yup ...thats correct ...same info as ive got ... :)
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1841 census does not give place of birth, only "Y" or "N".
For Thomas and Mary, in West Hyde, the census records just that they were "N" (not born in county - Herts)
In case you have not got this ...............
1861 Woodcock Hill Rickmansworth
John Thackham 25 "Day Labourer Ag" Rickmansworth
Lousia Thackham 26 Rickmansworth
William Goodman 4 "wife's son" Rickmansworth
Marriage Dec 1859 Watford 3a 457 Louisa Goodman / John Thackham
Birth Dec 1856 Watford 3a 278 William Goodman
Ray
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Good sunny morning :)
1851 census says Russell, Wiltshire, England ... ( can only be rushall )
ooh theres this ... Betty Goodman
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 24 Jan 1773
Christening Place: Laycock, Wiltshire, England
Father's Name: Thomas Goodman
Mother's Name: Sarah
and this ...Name: Thomas Goodman
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 11 Sep 1774
Christening Place: Laycock, Wiltshire, England
Father's Name: Thomas Goodman
Mother's Name: Sarah
i wonder if they are ours ?
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Hi, sorry Ray that was me getting ahead of myself. It would have been the 1851 census. I agree 1783caz, it would be interesting to find some connections with Rushall as I went through all the familysearch.org stuff and there appears to be several Thomas Goodmans in Wiltshire.
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Hi
Duh!
Same couple 1851 in West Hyde as 1841 West Hyde.
Same dwelling, same neighbour Godliman.
Ray
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i have got thomas goodman down as 2 diff birth dates ...1766 & 1777 ...these are the dates i found in the census records in the past ... i cant clarify right now which records exactly but i threw me hes got 2 diff dates ...but then they never knew how old they were most the time lol ...
Being as we know kids got names after their fathers quite a bit i do reckon a thomas in devizes could be one of ours its just a matter of knowing how to back it up ?
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Hi all, thank you Ray for your post. I hadn't noticed that the Godliman family were next door neighbors in both of the censuses. In fact when I first looked at the 1851 census I thought that there were two Thomas Goodmans. Ten years, for the Goodman family seems like a long time to be at the same address, given their previous record of moving around. Although I suppose it was not such a wide area. Mainly Ricky, Watford, and West Hyde. I wonder if both families liked each other, ha ha.
I found a document on, I think it is called Genku, re parish records for Wiltshire. Although I couldn't find much about Goodman or Pursler. I did find an Edward Goodman as a witness in 1770s scrolled down and lost the details. Very difficult to read the way it is laid out. From the earlier times it is even written in Latin.
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Hi to you all. Earlier, by inbox message, Maddie commented on Thomas and Zelpah's son George Hale Sloper Goodman who was born 1814. She wondered if Hale and Sloper were family names. Very good point Maddie. I have noticed that there is reference to a marriage between Sloper and Hale on Rootschat. It mentions Rushall Wiltshire also As Maddie said "food for thought". I left an inbox message with one of the Rootschatters. Should I not receive a reply I may put it on the thread. Right people collective thinking hats on when you get a mo.
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Well done you for finding that post re Sloper & Hale, it does at least prove that the names are local to Rushall, would be brilliant if the Chatter has come across any mention of the Goodman name whilst researching their own ancestors. I still can't find a baptism for any Goodman's at all in Rushall, very strange. :-\
Maddie
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very interesting stuff .... ive racked my brains out with finding connections with rushall or anywhere local to rushall ...i do remember looking into the "Hale Sloper" name and did find a hale sloper down that way ... and thought he ( george) may of been named after a family friend or something ... keep up the good work im relying on you lol ... ;)
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Hi all, I am having some brain drain at present. I have called in on Watford Museum the other day as I have not heard from them re my request to see James's workhouse records. I realize that 1783caz has already been down that road but I just thought it may be worth a go. This visit I gave them a copy of James's death cert as it clearly says Watford Union House death. The lady mentioned that they are very busy at present and that they did have my first request and would deal with it when they could.
I also had a reply from the rootschatter regarding Hale Sloper and unfortunately she is unable to see any connection with Goodman. Took another trip up to Watford Library and left a message with my email address on one of the public trees. This was the Sadler family tree and he refers to Hale and Sloper from Rushall. It appears on one part of the tree that Hale marries Sloper and one of the off spring also marries a Sloper. Not sure if that is usual for that family or whether it is a a religious thing. I noticed that there were a large Quaker community around Rushall, way back. Which in turn made me wonder if both, or one, of Thomas's parents were Quakers originally. Bearing that in mind it would seem strange though why Thomas and Zylpah started putting Hale Sloper on one of their children and it wasn't even their first born. See what I mean about brain drain.
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yup ,its confusing without proper records to look at ...there is a Wiltshire website somewhere that has a list of names people are researching and you can enrol to ...i shall try and find it as there maybe something on there that might be relevent .
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Hi all, thank you 1783caz for the Wiltshire info. I had a reply from Watford Museum. It maybe helpful for folks just to know what they actually keep. Not sure it would give any further information than what we already have.
"Unfortunately we only have four books of records for the workhouse - a register of births 1866-1933, two registers of deaths 1848-1858 and 1866-1911, and a punishment book 1914-1943. I have managed to locate James Goodman in the register of death from 1866-1911 which states;
Year Date Name Admitted From Buried
1878 December 31st Goodman, James Rickmansworth Rickmansworth"
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Hi everyone, with James death cert, the actual cert states death 1877, 31st December, although it was registered in 1878. A huge thanks must go out to Maddie who has given me a contact of another ancestor of Thomas/James Goodman. This ancestor has been busy working on the Goodman family history for years also. She has noted all of your help and support with my own George Goodman search. I agree, and would once again like to say how really grateful I am for all your continuous help with George and Co. Great to have another living ancestor within the fold. That is of course no disrespect to my dead ancestors as I have grown very fond of them all. I will be away from tomorrow for about ten days and I am not sure what, if any, access I will have to a computer.
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Hi all, I have received a reply from another lady who is also researching the same Thomas and James Goodman line. It does appear that we are all stuck in the same place. That is not knowing who Thomas from Rushall Wiltshire parents were. Thank you 1783caz for putting me in contact with her.
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Hi all, I rang Hertford Archives regarding James's death in 1877, registered 1878. Watford Museum had suggested that I may get more information there. It appears that the records that HALS keep on the workhouse are not very conclusive nor do the records display many details concerning individuals. No burial info available and no plan of the workhouse buildings and ground. I wondered about a graveyard. It is a bummer all round at the moment.
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Hi all, at present I have been mainly concentrating on Thomas and trying to find out who his parents were. However, I was thinking about George born 1844 and how he didn't ever seem to be associating with other members of his family. Even other relatives such as the Hardings, Thackham, Gristwoods etc.
I know that there was a George and Joseph Goodman together at the petty sessions in 1881, drunk and disorderly at Sarratt. From what I remember there were also two Goodman guys who were messing about when there was a religious service on, not sure of the year. Not sure also if these were the same two. I know for sure that the latter two were from another person's tree.
I am avoiding going to HALS although I believe the Hertfordshire Mercury is kept there and the article may throw more light on who the former guys were.
I must also get around to ordering George's birth cert, although I do know what info is already on it, but it will be good to have a def record and to share.
I was looking at George's mother's death cert of which I kindly received a copy from one of Caz's contacts. Sarah died 11th April 1869 at Batchworth, Rickmansworth, aged 55 years from a fever. It stated wife of James Goodman, who was present at the death. It described him as a Blacksmith, Journeyman. I hadn't noticed the Journeyman bit before anywhere. Jtas has recently asked me if James was a Journeyman or if he had his own forge. Well that clears that up then.
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wow ...i never noticed "journeyman " either ....what is a journeyman though ?
im currently trying to find "GEORGE " (1862/3... my 2x great grandfather) the blacksmiths sons buriel location ...records say he died in ricky ...a family memeber has told me they know someone who works at cemetary hill cemetary in hemel and said hes buried in the same plot as his family memeber ...hes given me the plot number ...but i cant understand this as my grandfather and siblings lost contact with their paternal Goodman side from ricky when their father Joseph (1887-1917) didnt return from ww1 ...and they were to young to remember them ...I was thinking where ever George was buried maybe his dad the blacksmith might be ? would i need to order death certificate to find this info ?
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Hi caz
From my old dictionary a Journeyman was a "workman who had fully learned his trade", presumably then James was a fully fledged Blacksmith.
Is the George you mention the one who lived in New Road Croxley. If so, I don't know if it's any help but my Grt Grandparents & Grandparents who lived in Croxley were all buried in Chorleywood Road cemetery Ricky.
Unfortunately a death cert doesn't have any burial info on so wont be any help.
Maddie
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Hi all, with reference to James and his trade. Would James have been a Mason or eligible to be a Mason?
I am not sure whether I have ever inquired at Chorleywood Road Cemetery about James's burial. If I haven't I will get onto that.
I have requested George born 1844 birth cert today.
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Hi
Do you mean "masonic lodge"?
Or "stone mason"?
Ray
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Hi Maddie ,yes it is the george who lived in new road i was seeking burial info on ...
would anyone know how i go about findng out about chorleywood cemetary burials ?
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Hi, thank you Ray, I do mean 'Masonic Lodge'. I didn't make that very clear did I. Not sure how the membership works. I thought it was for those who had an established trade or apprenticeship, especially in olden days.
With Chorleywood Road Cemetery I just wrote to Three Rivers council to start with as I had the date of death etc, that was for my George born 1844 and his daughter. Hertford may also help with the burial records to confirm a death. On line you may be able to order the information also with the National archives site.
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Hi to everyone, I have requested James, the Blacksmith, burial information from HALS. I mentioned that he was from Rickmansworth parish, therefore I would expect him to be buried at Chorleywood Road Cemetery. I guess that the burial would be financed by Ricky union burial board. I just hope that he was buried there as we know that he was not buried at Vicerage Road Cemetery.
Failing that path of exploration I will have to think again. Perhaps there was a mention about his death in a newspaper somewhere.
I may have to follow a complaints procedure to the chief executive of Watford General. I will demand to know what they did with my ancestor, only joking.
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lol ... i think you will have about another 500 hundred behind you demanding to know as well ;)
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Hi all, just to say that I can now let WGH off the hook as I have found my ancestor's burial place. I am pleased that James, the Blacksmith, finally did make it back to Rickmansworth when he died at 'The Workhouse' (WGH). It appears that he is buried at Chorleywood Road Cemetery also. I may have to confirm plot number later.
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:D
I'm so pleased you have found your James last resting place. Seems between us we have an awful lot of ancestors buried in Chorleywood Road. ;D
Maddie
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Hi
[ Just repeating part of a post on another thread - St Vincents ]
One of the links mentions RC chapels in Watford and a hand-drawn map of Watford C1870.
There is also a pic of Market St / Percy Road which is even more interesting
The church there was built 1889 (so George d1888 wouldn't have known that one)
http://www.holyroodrc.com/history/oldwatford.html
Enjoy
Ray
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Hi, you are right Maddie there does appear to be a lot of our Rickmansworth ancestors buried in Chorleywood Road Cemetery. I guess it is the older cemetery in Rickmansworth. Perhaps also, only those of means were buried with expensive headstones in the churchyard. Goodman and Gristwood burials seem to feature a lot in Chorleywood Rd Cem. On the same page as James there is an Ann Goodman who appears to be born in Rickmansworth long before Thomas Goodman, James the Blacksmith's father, moved there. There is also a Gristwood at the top of the page.
Thank you also for your comment Ray. That map of Watford and information is great. Funnily enough, I have been looking at old Watford in general. Watford Library had some good photos upstairs on display showing some of the old alleyways etc. I believe one of Thomas and Zylpah's children, Robert, lived in one of those old Watford houses. Amazing how Watford has expanded.
With George and the R/C connection. I am unable to find any evidence, other than his burial, that he converted to Catholicism. Apparently at the time the priests in Ireland were not too strict on whether a person converted to Catholicism, prior to marrying a Catholic. Even with the burial ceremony by priest Hardy, that may have been his wife's decision to contact her priest. I remember looking up information about a secular priest Hardy visiting the area for Catholics. I think there was some kind of tin hut before Holy Rood was built.
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Hi b
The map and the story show 2 RC chapels being in existence at the time holyrood was being built (1889)
A and B on that map.
R
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Hi, that is interesting re the two chapels. I know that there was the boys home, which you referred to, and a girls home which later appeared to become a college moving to Percy Road. I believe both started off at Queens Road, in different houses. I read somewhere that Watford R/C first worshipped in a small church, Paddock Road, New Bushey, (as it was then Called). It was served from Barnet. A mission was then opened in Water-lane. That old building still stands today, belonging to another denomination. I have walked past it several times. It seems to be a single storey building. A Mr S.T Holland then built the church at Market St. He was a convert from Anglican apparently. I had a look inside one of the church walls, some time back, and Father Hardy's name is on a wooden plaque as being one of the past priests. If it was the same Fr Hardy who buried George he may have stopped his roving ways and settled down to be a parish priest, instead of a secular one. I think the dates did appear to tally.
Ages ago I wrote to Michael Gandy who specialises in Catholic research in England. His quote..
"It sounds as though George Goodman is likely to have been of an ordinary Church of England (or perhaps Protestant nonconformist) family and only got involved with Roman Catholicism when he met Mary McCarthy. The rules about mixed marriages were not so strict then but if he converted then there will be a conditional baptism somewhere-probably in the parish registers of Clonmel shortly before marriage."
Unfortunately I was unable to locate any such documentation from Ireland therefore I presume the parish priest wasn't too bothered. I didn't have any luck with Westminster Archives either re George's children's baptisms in England therefore I laid that one to rest. Having found that other members of George's family have since been buried in consecrated ground I can now dismiss the protestant nonconformist idea also.
I have contacted Three Rivers Council today and hopefully will soon know exactly where James is buried in Chorleywood Road cemetery. I was informed that it will be just a patch of grass with no head stone. The grave was used after James by another unrelated person. It appears James, the Blacksmith, grave will be very similar to George, his son, sad really.
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Hi all, I have found a Goodman marriage to Hale on ancestry, although it may not have any relevance re George Hale Sloper Goodman. He was a son of Thomas and Zylpah, a brother to James (the Blacksmith). I know that there is a marriage between Hale and Sloper families, cousins getting married. There is some connection with at least one of these names to Wiltshire. Thomas claimed to be born in Rushall Wiltshire before he came to Rickmansworth.
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The details were Thomas Goodman married on April 4th, 1858, Northampton, England. It would be more relevant if it was years previously and perhaps displayed some connection to Wiltshire.
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Hi b
The text doesn't say that he was born there only that, at the time of marriage, he/they lived there.
Had a look in 1851 for him and the only Goodman i could see locally was a Henry Goodman (a tailor) and family.
Watford Observer tell me that Jackie's article is due online tomorrow (Thursday).
I'll post the link when it is online.
Ray
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Hi, yes you are right Ray. I had another look at that letter. Thanks for looking up the census for me. Aw well, the search goes on...
I hope to visit Wiltshire soon and I will try and go to the records office.
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Hi.
On the Northants marriage indexes it says.
Northampton All Saints
04-Apr 1858
Thomas GOODMAN otp, [Mare Fair], bachelor, of full age, shoemaker, father John, parchment pricker to
Grace Eliza HALL otp, [Mare Fair], spinster, of full age, father James, shoemaker
I will check further.
Sandy
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It seems other places has Grace's surname as HALE also.
I will if you want check against the original next week
unless someone can do it earlier.
Sandy
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Hi all
For interest 1 - WatfordObserver posted the article and photos.
http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/nostalgia/memories/10509643.Can_you_help_fill_gaps_in_Goodman_family_album_/
For interest 2 - Ran the plant stall yesterday at Croxley House (another lovely piece of history), spoke to members of the Gristwood family (willing to talk, Caz). Armed with those WatObs photos, had a close look at many 100's of local Croxley/Ricky residents trying to spot possibles. ;D
Ray
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Hi, thank you Sandy for your information. I am away at present therefore not always able to use the Internet. That would be great if you could check out the Hall/Hale details. Thank you also Ray, good of you to discuss the article with the Croxley folk. Hopefully it will trigger someone's memory.
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hahahaa nice one ray !!! ;D
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Hi all, got to visit Rushall in Wiltshire at last. Supposed to be the birth place of Thomas Goodman before he eventually settled in Rickmansworth. Unfortunately, despite searching the records at The Wiltshire and Swindon History Centre I didn't manage to find any birth/baptism at Rushall for Thomas. I was only able to view where he may or may not be baptised. Apparently the font at St Matthew's church is 12th century.
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Hi everyone, Maddie kindly sent me an attachment of Sarah Hansted's baptisim details. The baptism I understand took place in Rickmansworth parish church. Sarah was the wife of James Goodman, (the Blacksmith). Her surname is written as Anstead daughter of John and Mary of Great Gaddeson, which I believe is in Hertfordshire. She was baptised on the 28th of Feb 1808. Glad that the document referred to Great Gaddeson as that confirms her place of birth entry in the census.
The search goes on for Thomas though re his approx 1766 birth in Rushall Wilts.
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great stuff !!! yes thast right she was from great gaddesden also once known as great gaddesley ( right near where i live ..only a small village )...ive seen her down as anstead as well ...also dont forget goodman can be mistakenly down as goodwin and other variations ...i did look round the village churchyards last year to see if i could recognise any names but nothing ...
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Hi
Anstead/Hanstead/...sted
Just adding to the pile of notes . . . . .
William Miles / Elizabeth Hanstead
Rickmansworth 13 Oct 1827
Ray
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Hi, thank you Caz and Ray for your comments. Yes, the variations in the names does tend to make confirming family ties difficult. Does anyone know of any witnesses recorded for the marriage that Ray mentioned.
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sarah hanstead has a sister called jane ..their parents are william hanstead and mary childs ...
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william hanstead ive read on others trees is born 1780 in uxbridge ...mary childs was apparently born about 1782 in Aldenham, Hertfordshire...
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Hi
I may be wrong but I think this is Sarah Anstead's baptism in Little Gaddesden, parents John & Mary. ;)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JQTY-J46
There are other kids showing for John & Mary Anstee/Anstey in Gaddesden that I think could be siblings.
If I'm wrong, my apologies. :)
Maddie
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Hi all
Apologies, forgot to say "spotted on HALS"
I blame it on ................ I had all my hair shorn off for charity last weekend and the shock is making me going away for a week's trip to a brewery.
A N Y E X C U S E !
Raised £250+ for "Sobell Centre" and "Lister Hospital Kids"
Every one says it's knocked 20 years off me (Some wags also said 2 inches in height!)
I've worked out that if I have it done again at Xmas then I'll almost be in my mid-teens.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Good for you Ray, nothing like making oneself appear younger, wish I could but I don't think shaving my hair off would work.......... ;D
Maddie
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Hi, sorry I must have got my Gaddesdens muddled. Looked up the area it seems to have a very good community spirit. Not sure if Sarah or her family stayed there very long, following her birth.
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wow interesting find maddie ... i doubt you are wrong ...theres cant be any other sarah hansteads in the small village of great gaddesley ... :)
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theres two gaddesdens ...little gaddesden up one side of the hill and great gaddesden near ashridge the other side of the valley ... funny enough little gaddesden is bigger than great gaddesden i think ?...i dont think they did stay there that long before moving to watford ...
well done ray .... :)
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Hi, I and Caz have now received Thomas Goodman's death cert from one of Caz's line contacts. I am grateful to be included. Just like my George Thomas had a mystery lady in attendance.
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Hi all, still tinkering with Thomas Goodman's birth whereabouts in Wiltshire. Two brothers are kindly trying to assist me in my search. Recently I received a message, which was disappointing, in that they have not managed to locate a cira 1766 birth for Thomas Goodman. However, one of the brothers mentioned that he has one more place to look, 'Enford parishes registers'. This place is about seven miles south of Pewsey. I believe Rushall is in the vale of Pewsey. Fingers crossed please everyone.
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Hi bg
I have everything crossed for a successful outcome from your 2 brothers, or else Thomas is looking like he will remain an enigma. :'(
Maddie
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fingers crossed ;D
i have always had a big feeling that thomas was in pewsey ...lets hope they can find him ! im all thomas goodmaned out ...havent a clue where to look anymore ...ive been looking for him for over a year now ...
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Hi all, the brothers have not been lucky with finding Thomas Goodman, despite a lot of searching on their part. Very very disappointing indeed. However, Thomas Goodman will remain on their file and hopefully something may come up in the future. Apparently one of the brothers have recently found an ancestor that he had been searching for from 1980. Well that should make me feel better but..
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:( sigh ....
good work though bgoodman .... we will all just have to keep an eye on things being added all the time everywhere ...
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Hi all and thank you Caz for your last comment. I intend to visit Shrewsbury, Shropshire on Saturday. Besides looking at the sights I hopefully will be able to go to the records office to look up baptisms. As you probably are aware Thomas Goodman, grandfather to George Goodman and the rest, married Mary Pursler. Mary was his second wife. Although they appear not to have had any children. However she is of interest in that she appeared to be married to Thomas for some time. Lets hope I find some good luck this time.
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Hi all, nothing definite to report from my visit to Shrewsbury, Shropshire Archives. However, I was lucky to have the help of a very kind volunteer which saved me a lot of hassle in searching the records. She seemed to think Mary Pursler, second wife of Thomas Goodman was the Mary Purslow from Westbury Parish, mentioned below. Although we couldn't find anything definite.
Mary married Thomas in 1833, in Hertfordshire, as a spinster and he was a widower.
His first wife was Zylpah Harding. Zylpah was the mother of all of Thomas Goodman's children. James, father of George Goodman born 1844, was one of her many children.
Thomas doesn't appear to have had any children with Mary.
Mary Purslow 1787 Westbury parish, Shropshire, England. Baptised 20th of Jan, at Minsterley, which is approx 10 miles outside Shrewsbury.
Her father, Joseph Purslow 1755-1843, married Mary Price 24 th Dec 1782. This Mary is on ancestry also, very little info entered for that family tree. I will leave a message when I next visit the site.
Minsterley is a small hamlet, I did visit the area and had a look at the local church there. Generally there was nothing much to see in Minsterely and as there was a heavy downpour of rain I didn't hang about.
There was also a Mary Purslow birth 1787 Shropshire, although her spouse was William Thomas.
Not sure if she is the same Mary christened 5 th August 1787 Pontesbury, Shropshire. Her father Thomas Purslow, mother Anne.
Another Mary Purslow, Shropshire 17 th August 1788, Cardeston. Her father was John Purslow and her mother Sarah.
There was only one name, no date or year, of a Pursler (?Pursloe) wid, recorded as a burial in Shrewsbury, Shropshire. The (?Pursloe) was entered next to the scant entry. I suspect therefore that the spelling versus the pronunciation of the name, posed some problems at times.
In the Shropshire non conformist book there was a Mary Purslow R/C, no other info. Well folks it was worth a try. Shrewsbury has some good sights to see including a lovely castle.
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Hi, just searched The National Archives for Wiltshire wills. I was hoping to find some connection with the parental family of Thomas Goodman, before he moved moved to Ruckmansworth. I searched 1700-1900. I came across six Goodman wills as follows:
1776 Henry Goodman, gentleman of Easton, Wilts.
1790 John Goodman, gentleman of Rowde, Wilts.
1794 Joseph Goodman, servant to the Marquis of Landsdown, Wilts.
1823 Sophie Goodman, widow of Devizes, Wilts.
1827 John Goodman, Calne, Wilts.
1856 Rev Maurice Hiller Goodman, clerk of Wilcot, Wilts.
I suppose some could be eliminated such as the Rev as I know he just came to Wiltshire later. I expect the two gentlemen would be a class above. The servant, John from Calne and Sophie could be a possibility. Even if the connection was uncle, brothers or sister in law it would be something. I wish that I had found these before my trip to Wiltshire Archives. Still, I know that these wills can be ordered online but which one if any is the question.
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Hi to everyone, I have just searched through 5,864 Goodman headings on the National Archives site. We do appear to go way back. Besides the Goodman folk who were naturalised, from 1890s onwards, there were other Goodman people who used aliases. Some headings, unfortunately, do not state where in England the document refers to. I am not really any wiser but hopefully something in the future may trigger something. It is just a matter of following those ancestors around from one county to the next. I am not even considering countries at this stage.
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Hi everyone, I am away at present therefore I had to put my Goodman ancestors to bed for a while. Having said that I am visiting the Scandinavian countries supposedly where the Goodman name originated from. Goodman folk followed a Scandinavian man called Oscand Gudmund, excuse spelling as I haven't got my notes. The Goodman people firstly settled in Goodmanham. England. I read about the place and it is interesting in that it has a long history of pagan worship.
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Hi
Just thought I'd throw this one up
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=625265.0
James Bowler / Julia Holland
Witnesses at the marriage were William Goodman+wife
James father Charles married Jemima Gristwood
Ray
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lol Ray ....
your looking at Buckinghamshire as well now ! Other day was looking at my mothers side (waters ) that come from there and noticed loads of Goodmans out that way .... i was reading old baily crime reports last night and saw a james goodman 1716 from aylesbury buckinghamshire as well....i was thinking maybe were all concentrating to much on Rushall... there are a few thomas goodmans in middlesex that fit roughly 1760-65 ...one of them could be our Thomas ? ....One was born in 1760 and baptised in 1783 ...isnt middlesex close to ricky ? i think we have to keep our minds open to the fact he couldve always been close to Ricky and just ended up in Rushall for some little reason like farming trip or something lol .... .... ....i was thinking of perhaps researchign the slopers that lived in Rushall for a few centuries ...they wouldve been there at same time as ours ...one of their ancestors left a message in the guestbook on Rushalls website ...be great to contact him but no one seems to reply to mails on that site :(
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Hiya!
I threw it up (so to speak) because of the "Gristwood" link to "Goodman".
Funny thing is that "Bowler" is on my wife's side.
So would a "Bowler" - "Gristwood" mean that we are now "related"
;D
Ray
?Me= 'Erts[coz i'm here] Middx[coz I was] Bucks[marital Bowler/Tearle/Fuller]
West 'Am[paternal] Wilts/Hants[maternal "Rufus"]
S.Glam(the way I dress]
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Hi all, back in the UK again. Good work Caz and Ray. I found a list somewhere that had Jemima Goodman down as a Non Conformist. It didn't say which faith though. There were other Goodman names listed also. Oh how I wish I kept better notes and at the very least referenced the source of the info. I often overlook that with the women Goodman could be their married name. Wow that would be very interesting to find a connection with Ray's ancestors.
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ive seen jemima goodman a few times ...not a usual name .
just incase ...it may not mean anything but im sniffing round this one now .....
Avis Butchers husband "rev maurice hillier goodman " was born in 1753 ...he lived in OARE Wiltshire ...just next to Rushall ....he worked at a church in wilton as there wasnt one in Oare and also had something to do with one in london ...but he married Avis in her local church in Rushall ... ... ...... I dont think they wouldve had thomas as avis was born in 1760 ... .... ....but we have to keep maurices family and hers as suspects lol.
...Notes for Rushall : (A).....Reverend Maurice Hillier Goodman (born 1753 ) married Avis Butcher (born 1760 ) and bred and wed-(1779) in Rushall ...... .... ........Avis Butcher wouldve known our Thomas Goodman if he lived in rushall after his birth ........Maurice Goodman is the only record of a Goodman being in the small hamlet Rushall ... ..... ..... have to consider Thomas being a possible adoption ... .... (adoptions were informative things in 18th century and the child would be given to chosen people either family or friends in the same village/town ) ... .......................................... (B) ....William Sloper born 1775 in Rushall married Suzanna Hale in 1797 ....i reckon these were Thomases friends ...
William being born only a few years more than Thomas ,he couldve been very old friends with William Sloper ... = the name given to thomases son George HALE SLOPER Goodman ...(c) ....plan of action .....Scour the Sloper familys line in Rushall and the Hale familys line ,scour documents ,witnesses at deaths and all marraiges available ,....also Breakdown all the villagers families of Rushall at the time of Thomases birth and scour them as well ,including Avis Butchers family...Check to see if there was a book called "Hundred Rolls of Wiltshire/Rushall " check that for list of everyone in the area at the time ...
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Hi, good for you Caz, go get them girl. I had a look at my notes from my visit to Wiltshire Archives. The info I have re Maurice Goodman's marriage is as follows. "Goodman Maurice Hiller bach of St Benet Grace Church Street, London.
Butcher Avis, spin, 11th July 1779 Lic
John Butcher, Sarah Goodman."
I presume the Lic means license, which could suggest non conformist.
What is also interesting is that there was a Sloper John bach (the name bach again).
Plank Avis spin 31st May 1834
John Burden Ann Sloper.
I suppose as the name bach was written with a small b it may not have been a surname.
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Yes thats the place in London .... can never remember the name of it ..
I think Maurice remarried not long after Avis ?
his wife had some church or something built in his memory in Oare ...or was it Oare House ? ....what im thinking as well he wouldve travelled quite a bit from Thomases birth place to London quite a bit ...having family down wilts and reverend of a church in wilton and to do with London ...
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bach=bachelor
as in
spin=spinster
:)
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Oh gosh Ray I never thought of that. There were some bracketed letters after the names also which I took for the archives codes system. Ah well one less complication to worry about.
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;D hahahahahaaaaa thats funny !
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Hi, that's what desperation does to you, mangles your brain. While going back over the Ricky parish microfilms, I found a leaflet in Watford Library re courses at HALS, perhaps I need them more than most. Seriously though, there are some interesting ones mentioned. Shame that the majority of them have already taken place. Sept 30th there is a session on the Legal system and on the 21st of Oct there is a session on how to use maps for family and local history. The courses past were about stuff such as ancestors health records, schools, and crime. Course on how best to use the internet, old handwriting and even an introduction to essential Latin for FH. They do other stuff in insddition to these courses such as talks, worships etc. Most stuff is fee paying but they do tours and talks on how to use the catalogue s for free.
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Sorry for the spelling, sometimes phones are just not helpful. Rushing to eat dinner that will teach me.
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Hi..
Thomas Goodman would be my 4th Great Granddad. I have been drastically crawling through the web today. I have had confirmation from archive people that Thomas's baptism definitely isn't on the Rushall list. I have been thinking a little outside the box...If the census for 1841 is the same Thomas and it says he isn't of that parish...Well...around that time there were a lot of immigrations from Ireland and America...there is a Wiltshire in America. If you look closely at the actual 1851 census...the word Russell, doesn't actually look like it ends with an l...it looks like it could be a t or a b perhaps.
But I have also come across something else this morning on my travels of the world wide web...There was a yeoman with an estate in Wiltshire and the Yeoman's name was Joseph Russell. I have other relations who were actually born in Moor park because their family worked on the Moor Park estate...what says that Thomas wasn't actually born on the Russell estate? It says the community is Bramshaw...this was half in Wiltshire and half in Hampshire and later became just a part of Hampshire....
If they were farmers..it could be likely. There is also a story going around going back in time a bit here that agricultural labourers were up in arms about wages so many fled to new jobs in new areas.
I also found a tithing document on HALS for a Rickmansworth Thomas Goodman. My Granddad had property tithed with the job. Perhaps Thomas's birth info had to be given for a tithed property?
Happy hunting.
Gill
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Oh wow ! .... weve another Thomas Goodmans decendent :)
I was also closely examining the word Russel in the census other day and was thinking it doesnt look like RUSSELL /RUSHALL ....more like rustle ...there was a wave of immigration in 18th century of jewish in the south west as well ...i think we need to go back to basics on this and look closely at least obvious things ...Gill may i ask which line you descend from ? Thomas is my 5th great grandfather ....followed by the 2 jameses and george then to joseph .
please keep us upto date with your findings as we can all crack this one together :)
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Hi Gill
Welcome to the Goodman group and their merry band of helpers. ;D
"The Game Keeper's twins" - are there many twins in the family?
I would like some specifics in order that I don't spend time making assumptions and duplicatiing effort.
Would you confirm which names/census ref/year for the following ?
* Which Thomas 1841 Wiltshire? there are (at least) 6.
* "Yeoman with an estate . . . . Russel"
* Moor Park relations?
* "My Grandad had property tithed with the job" Do you mean grandfather or gtx4G?
One of my buddies, his gx?grandparents lived on the MoreParkMansion estate . . . . .
(still trying to prove links so will not complicate matters yet)
Cheers
Ray
Caz
What person/census ref were you looking at?
R
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hi ray , its the 1841 census with thomas in ricky ...when you check the actual census record itself it doesnt look like it reads "rushall" but something else ...
1841 census ....Thomas Goodman
Age: 70
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1771
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: Rickmansworth
Hundred: Cashio
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England
we did have relations work in moor park ...James Goodman cousin to my 1x great grandfather (joseph) ...watford observer .....im not aware of any others yet but would love to know more :)
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;D
It's 1851 ::) not 1841
According to wiki, there is only 1 place name in Wilts beginning "rus" 'tis Rushall. (0 in Hants)
Wiltshire accent heard in 'Erts?
and
it may be the only thing that HE remembers of his childhood.
Erm, I was born in 'Olloway. :o but never lived there, so I only remember 'Arrer.
Ray
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Hi guys,
Sorry to leave you so long...have had no internet because my connection is temperamental and have been cooking tea.
My line to Thomas is through my great Gran.
Here goes...brief info...
My maternal nan and Granddad were Sarah Lilian Turner and Edward Green who married in Watford 1934..I think, without checking lol!! My Granddad's dad was James Green who was a watercress farmer/labourer and his wife was Emma Goodman. Emma's parents were James Goodman and Louisa Gristwood and James parents were James Goodman and Sarah Hanstead, I do believe and then we come to Thomas Goodman and Zilpah...that's my line through the Goodmans...I do believe my Great Granddad on my Grandfather's side used to work with James Goodman in Moor Park. The Greens had a few generations at Moor Park, If I am correct. I have to check food...will be back with more info in a bit...
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Please supply confirmation of dates/refs?
[ When you are less hungry, that is ]
;D
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Thomas Smith worked with James Goodman at Moor park ... :)
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Please excuse my ignorance...Thomas Smith? And Ray, what refs would you like?
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https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Russell+Mill,+Wiltshire&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x4873d92985951949:0x6f904ba5154aac6d,Russell+Mill,+Russell+Mill+Ln,+Littleton+Panell,+Devizes+SN10+4ET&gl=uk&ei=VbU4UoCGHa6d7ga-yYGIBg&sqi=2&ved=0CH8QtgMwCg
Have a look at this..I am just researching the Littleton Farm.
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Hi Gill, amazing work, delighted that you have joined the thread. I know that there was a Thomas Goodman or two lurking around the Hertfordshire area, 1700s onwards. I believe at least one of them was a gent and had some property. There is a will in the National Archives for Thomas Goodman who was a gent, Hertfordshire. In a litigation case, it appears also that a John Goodman had a connection with the Bennett family (half brother). The following are just the headings mainly. I think you would have to pay to request further information on line however, I feel these Goodman families are not connected to our Thomas.
"Prerogative Court of Canterbury and related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers. Will of Thomas Goodman, Gentleman of Hatfield , Hertfordshire.
Collection: Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury
Date range: 19 March 1798 - 19 March 1798
Reference:PROB 11/1303/179
Subjects:Wills and probate"
"Short title: Bennett v Goodman. Document type: Bill and answer. Plaintiffs: Jeremiah Bennett, carrier (half ...
...Goodman. Document type: Bill and answer. Plaintiffs: Jeremiah Bennett, carrier (half brother of John Goodman, tanner deceased of Hertford, Hertfordshire). Defendants: Henry Goodman and John Smart, gent. Date of bill (or first document): 1726. The naming ...
Collection: Records created, acquired, and inherited by Chancery, and also of the Wardrobe, Royal Household, Exchequer and various commissions
Date range: 01 January 1726 - 31 December 1726
Reference:C 11/2227/7
Subjects:Litigation"
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http://archive.org/stream/registersofbisho00bish#page/274/mode/2up
There is a place called Savernake that comes up in the archives with a Thomas Goodman too...I don't think that he is the right one because dates are slightly out and family appear different. There is this link which you may be interested in seeing...There isn't a Thomas Goodman in this book, however there was a Dorchester Goodman. What is interesting is how may Sloper families there are and there is one particular entry which is Thomas s. of Silas and Mary Sloper. 15 March 1758. Over the page there is, it seems, a brother John.
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Hi Gill
Your reply (#509) mentions lots but no refs/years/dates
I replied (#511)
"Would you confirm which names/census ref/years for the following ?
* Which Thomas 1841 Wiltshire? there are (at least) 6.
* "Yeoman with an estate . . . . Russel"
* Moor Park relations?
* "My Grandad had property tithed with the job" Do you mean grandfather or gtx4G?"
Where you have found info may differ to where any one of us have found the info.
Different sources may enable any one of us to expand any lead.
The same may highlight assumptions/clarifications ( aka errors :) ) in/on any one of our research topics (and with respect, yours).
You will have snippets of info which may highlight/clarify other leads and vice versa.
Cheers!
Ray
Congratualtions, Brenda, your thread is 500+ replies .............................. :o
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I apologise Ray...I am very good at research but maybe still wet behind the ears at giving my findings...I think this is the information you require...
The 1841 census for Thomas Goodman
Piece 438
Book 21
Folio 45
Page 9
For Rickmansworth.
Thomas is living in the same building as Mary. It says on this census that Thomas is NOT from this parish...meaning he is not from Rickmansworth. I am wondering how we know that this Thomas Goodman on this 1841 census is the same Thomas Goodman who was married to Zilpah Harding?
It doesn't give any indication of children to bring us to that conclusion and age cannot verify this because they sometimes lied for census info anyway.
The 1851 Census for Thomas Goodman
Schedule 30
piece 1714
Folio 469
Page number 8
This census states that Thomas is from Russell, Wiltshire, but to my reckoning, when you zoom in...the word which is meant to say 'Russell' actually looks like something else.
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With regards to the findings of the yeoman....On the Wiltshire county council site...well here is the link to save any more confusion..
http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/heritage/wills_search.php?community_in=Bramshaw
You will see Joseph Russell in this list for copies of wills.
I can't remember everything I looked at but I am sure I found that Joseph Russell had his own
manor/estate. Perhaps Thomas meant the Russell estate belonging to Joseph Russell was where he was born? Especially if Thomas's parents worked there.
I have since found a Russell Mill lane in Wiltshire.
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With regards to my relatives living in Moor park...I had several generations there in the lodge. My Great Great Granddad James Green born 7 Nov 1840 and his father before him, Benjamin Green and his father before him, James Green born 22 July 1871 was born in Moor Park and worked there and he married his wife there Ann Webb who also lived there.
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With regards to the tithed house with job...I am referring to my Granddad Edward Green, born 25.12.1905 in Croxley Hall Cottages, Rickmansworth. My Granddad would have a house to live in which came with his job. Also, added bit of information...yes, my granddad Edward, was a twin.
Hope this helps.
Thank you all for making me feel most welcome.
God bless.
Gill.
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Hi Gill
Let's do the easy bit, first?
Re: 1841 What you are thinking of as "Not born in parish" is actually (the census column) "not born in County" ie (not even) born in Hertfordshire, often shortend to "nbic".
Ray
ps where are you, geographically?
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Me...right now this second...on my sofa. lol. Hampshire.
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In the book of marriages, Hertfordshire, on Thomas Goodman and Zilpah Harding's marriage info it says that Thomas Goodman bachelor is of this parish. Therefore the Thomas with Mary cannot be the same Thomas as the Thomas with Zilpah. Unless they were lying??
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Hi
Re marriage "of this parish" has nothing to do with where they were born (necessarily) but where they were living at the time of the marriage.
Re census "not born in county" has nothing to do with the detail of residence at time of marriage.
Ray
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http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/results.aspx?Page=1&ContainAllWords=family+collections&ContainAnyWord=Goodman&Repository=Bedfordshire+and+Luton+Archives+and+Record+Service&Catalog=The+Russell+Collection
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Thank you Ray for your comment re the thread. Gill you are correct in saying that you are good at research. You do manage to root out some interesting stuff on the national archives. I had a feeling that I wasn't getting all that was there re Goodman. Keep up the good work and thank you for sharing your findings.
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i think we need a goodman convention soon lol ...be great to see everyones tree lines put together on a huge display ! i wonder if we can find a few others ....if i can think which lines we need i could try and locate .
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A Goodman [& gofers] Convention eh?
I know of 2/3 places within a couple of hundred yards from where "newbie" Gill's ancestor lived, who would allow free use. I think that 2 have pc-connect projectors too.
I'll check them out anyway, I'll be there later [ ;D ] Yup both, yup both licensed [ ;D ;D ]
Where the Green family were (1911) may still be there.
Croxley Hall "Farm" definitely is and still owned by the "Same" family.
Next door to James/Emma in 1911 is "Hollow Tree" which is def still there.
I have a feeling as to where WestView/WestViewCottage might be/havebeen (although C100yards away)
Ray
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Thank you for the compliments guys. I have found this on family search this morning which could do with a bit of research.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N56D-SZG
Could be our Thomas.
I would love to get together sometime.
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Morning ....
the flaunden Goodmans ...B Goodman i think knows some on them during her previous research ... be worth another look though as we never know .... :)
i seem to notice a lot of Thomas Goodmans ive looked at over the country seem to have a mother called "Sarah" lol
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Hi, that meeting place sounds like a very good idea Ray. We could have a Herts rootschat forum conference. We may find our Herts ancestors are connected even if it is just as friends or acquaintances. Lets hope not by crime or indeed enemies.
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good ideas you lot ! :)
i dont mind if its through crime ...makes it a bit more interesting ...ive read quite a few of the prison hulk ships and although not nice at the time ...petty crimes ...i saw a young boy aged 7 put on one for stealing a sheepskin and sent to australia ...prob the freezing cold made him do it ...and winters were WINTERS back in our days so goodness knows what it was like then without our central heating etc ... interesting stuff but quite sad to read ....i wonder who that william goodman is for poaching fish/eels in the lake in Ricky ? ..he wrestled men and got away but left his jacket and thats how he was found ...but unfortunatley he died the next day ...prob hungry and a family to feed ....how times have moved on ...sometimes for the better .
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Hi, the Thomas Goodman on familysearch that Gill refers to has father's name Richard. Although we have a Robert as a child of Thomas there doesn't appear to have been a Richard. It would seem strange not to name at least one child Richard. Also with the place of birth being different from the census details about Thomas. Still, you never know everything is worth looking at as we are so stuck. I am trying to connect any families of Goodman people at present as it may eliminate some at the very least. I am going to try and be a bit more organized re my points of reference, in keeping with Ray's high standards. Only joking Ray and I do agree showing the source of information is the way forward.
Firstly, from my research previously I found a George born Jun quarter 1848, Wokingham, vol 6, 291, Free BMD.You may remember I purchased that cert thinking it was my George Goodman. George was actually born on 20th of May, Wargrave. Mother Elizabeth Withers from Whistley, father James Goodman. I visited Wargrave etc but Whistley which I believe is Whistley Green doesn't now exist. I later found a death for James Goodman who died March quarter 1848, vol 6, 260, Free BMD.
I then found a will for James Goodman, Feb 24th 1848 National Archives, Reference Prob11/2069/171. The heading was will of James Goodman, Gentleman of Wargrave, Berkshire Of course I immediately thought this is the father of the George born 1848. I guessed the mother gave birth to the baby following the father's death. However, looking at the birth cert of George it doesn't say father deceased. It may not have been a requirement, I suppose.
This is the bit where I get vague again, I thought for some reason that this James was connected to the Water Eaton Goodmans, who in turn may be connected to the Flaunden Goodman people. I recall ?James Goodman leaving some books to his two year old nephew, ? Flaunden. Previously National Archives gave a bit more heading detail with the likely info to be found in the will. Well that's the vague bit over with for now.
Found a George in the 1851 census, HO 1071723, it has 30 at the top of the page and 50 on the right hand side. George aged 3 years born Water Eaton Bucks, was in Newport Pagnall as a visitor to Thomas Emerton and family.
Then in the 1861 census RG 8 871 103 pg 27. There is a George Goodman age 13 years son of Thomas Goodman Newport Pagnall, (Fenny Stratford subdistrict). This George appears to have been born in Bletchley, Bucks.
Then in 1871 census RG 10 1417, 116 pg 25,26. There is a George Goodman aged 23 years born 1848, Water Eaton, he was a grandson of Elizabeth Emerton. Therefore I would say that there is a definite connection with Water Eaton Goodman and Newport Pagnall (Emerton) Goodman. I expect there will be a marriage for Emerton and Goodman somewhere. There are lots of Goodman folk living next door to each other in the Fenny Stratford subdistrict especially in the 1851 census. Unable to see a connection with Thomas and Zilpah although it wouldn't surprise me if there was a connection with Henry Goodman, the Baker. Maddie's uncle's line. I feel looking in more details at the National Archive list of wills should connect families further. I tried looking at ancestry wills in the library today but was unable to locate James from Wargrave. Well folks, the search goes on and on...
Caz, re the ells, we mentioned that chap on rootschat before and apparently he is one of Maddie's uncle's line.
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Some of the cruel treatment wasn’t always by the authorities either. Found this on National Archives.
“HO 47/20/6
Description: Report of William Mainwaring, Chairman of the Middlesex Quarter Sessions, on 1 individual petition (John Goodman, dealer in wood and coals) on behalf of Margaret Goodman, his wife, both of whom were convicted at the Middlesex Quarter Sessions, on 16 February 1796, for repeatedly assaulting and violently beating their nephew, also John Goodman, aged 13 years, who helped in their business. There is a covering letter from Mainwaring. Evidences from Rose Clark, next-door neighbour, Susannah Priest, Elizabeth Cooke, Martin Clark and 'Several other Witnesses'. Grounds for clemency: her husbandaks for the prisoner to be released during the second year of her sentence due to her good behaviour, remorse and his need for assistance in running his business. Initial sentence: John, 1 year in the house of correction; Margaret, 2 years in the house of correction (at Cold Bath Fields, Middlesex). Recommendation: none given (magistrates states that he sees no reason for a remission of the remainder of her sentence, although he cites the Governor of the House of Correction, Thomas Aris, who speaks in the prisoner's favour). Folios 28-33.
Date:
1797 May 10
Held by:
The National Archives, Kew”
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"I have a feeling as to where WestView/WestViewCottage might be/havebeen (although C100yards away)"
North Cottage and South Cottage were found in Yorke Road, Croxley Green, but no sign of West . . . .
Ray
. . . . . yet
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Hi everyone, I feel that I am in a familiar place, stuck. Yes, stuck again. I was thinking about the name Zilpah and and how I thought it was an unusual name for the times. Zilpah Harding, just to remind all, was the wife of Thomas Goodman. Thomas was the father of James Goodman, Blacksmith, from Rickmansworth. James was the father of George, and other children. George born 1844 and was my great grandfather. At present I am looking again at all Goodmans in the hope of finding any connection to other Goodman families.
Perhaps I was wrong about the name Zilpah being unusual, although I have found it spelt with a y etc on some documents. Zilpah Goodman (nee Harding) died in 1832. On Free BMD I found a Zilpah Goodman who died in 1856 Ampthill and another who died in 1857 Ampthill, June quarter, 3b 235. There were a couple who died the next two years in Bradford and one in Newport Pagnell. I noticed that there was a will on National Archives for a Zilpah Goodman widow of Ampthill, Bedfordshire 31st July 1857. It got me thinking perhaps one of those Zilpah ladies was named after Thomas's wife, although I am not able to find a a family connection. Incidentally,and probably not related but there was a James Goodman who died 1857, Ampthill, June quarter, also in 2b, 235. Does anyone out there know of any connection to the Thomas Goodman, who claimed to be born in Wiltshire, and the Ampthill Goodman folk???
The Zilpah who died in
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I found something unusual this morning on ancestry, where it gives you hints about the person you are searching...it gave a record of a baptism for Harriet Goodman who married Mr Kibbles..it said her mother was Mary Goodman.
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Hi, that is interesting as there is a public member tree on ancestry that mentions the marriage of Harriet and Thomas Kibbles. I was under the impression that Harriet born approx 1806, daughter to Thomas and Zilpah, was the same person who married Thomas Kibbles. Harriet was married in approx 1826 and died approx 1858. James Goodman was one of her witnesses. I wonder why her mother was down as Mary especially if it is the same Harriet. It looks too much of a coincidence to be another. I vaguely remember there an illegitimate Goodman daughter born around that time. Not sure whether that caused some mix up with the names. Ancestry has made mistakes before. I have alerted them to a mistake with George Joesph's (junior) surname which was down as Dooman. I remember thinking that the Goodman lady, who had the illegitimate daughter, may have been a sister to Thomas. I suppose if Thomas was born in Wilts this lady may have been also. Wishful thinking I'm sure.
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If this is the same Harriet, which appears to be so, apart from the mothers name, she was baptised about the age of ten. I will try and put info on here.
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England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906
about Harriett
Name:
Harriett
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
11 Aug 1816
Christening Place:
Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, England
Mother's Name:
Mary Goodman
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Hi all
Just to clarify & prevent to much confusion :) Harriett was baptised 10th August 1806 Rickmansworth, parents Thomas & Zylpha Goodman. Not sure who the Harriett with mother Mary is at the moment but hopefully she will come to light. ???
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie.
I wonder if she could be a cousin of Thomas who named her daughter Harriet too? There were so many families back then who named and re named the same names.
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Hi, thank you also from me Maddie for clarifying the details about Harriett. I found my notes, copied from Microfilm, re the illegitimate Goodman births in Rickmansworth. I found Mary Goodman illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth Goodman baptized in 1794, Feb 9th. The other one was in 1815, August 11th, Harriett illegitimate daughter of Mary Goodman. Thomas married Zylpah on 3rd of August 1795 aged 29 years. That would be one year after Mary Goodman was born to Elizabeth. I know that there were baptisms to a John and Elizabeth Goodman also around that time. However, if that Elizabeth was already Goodman that must have been her maiden name. I do not know the maiden name of Elizabeth who married John Goodman. It does suggest that there were Goodman families around Rickmansworth before Thomas (b.1766) and even before Goodman, (The Baker), family. The latter being the family of Maddie's uncle. I also do not know when Thomas came to Rickmansworth. If he came directly from Wiltshire or from another part of England.
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Hi folks, not in UK at present but pleased to say the search for Thomas is still going on. It appears that there were quite a few Goodman families in Hertfordshire, some may not have stayed long. Perhaps passing farm workers. Complicates things nicely though, especially when the first names were the same also.
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Hi, at present trying to find records for Thomas Goodman, grandfather of George Goodman, born 1844, who was the son of James Goodman (Blacksmith) Rickmansworth. Not having much luck at present. Thomas born in Wiltshire in approx 1766 may have joined the Wiltshire Militia. Although he equally could have joined another county, if he didn't actually grow up in Wiltshire. He must have done something with his years before his marriage, aged 29-30 years. I haven't found any evidence yet of him being imprisoned during this period also. 1795 was when he seemed to appear first in Rickmansworth. To recap he married Zylpah Harding 1795 in Rickmansworth and had several of his children baptised in St Mary's parish Rickmansworth. He did not appear to be in the army when he started his family, often described as a laborer.
While looking up stuff in the library today I found some evidence on ancestry of Goodman non conformity, in Hertfordshire and in the near by counties. Dates may suggest not directly related to my ancestors
Jermima Goodman baptised 8th of Nov 1812, Hemel Hempstead, Herts. RG4: Registers of Birth, Marriages and Deaths, Hertfordshire, Independent. Piece 2040; Hemel Hempstead, Box Lane Chapel (Independent), 1805-1820. The mother's name is not very clear Mary Godman or Mary Goodman. There was also later, a William Godman baptised 16th April 1815.
In Newport Pagnell, Bucks, there is a James Goodman baptised 26th of July 1813. Father was William Goodman, mother Susanna Goodman. Piece 253; Newport Pagnell, Great Meeting, (Independent) 1790-1822.
In Maulden Bedfordshire, there is a burial for a Richard Goodman 16th of Nov 1831, Piece 227; Maulden (Independent and Baptist 1730-1837.
In Cranfield Bedfordshire there is a burial for a William Goodman 10th of Jan who is a Baptist. Piece 220 Cranfield (Baptist) 1799-1837.
With the Wiltshire connection although again dates are not within the correct time frame to be applicable to my ancestors. There is, rather strangely, a Thomas Wright baptized 27th of August 1838. Father Robert Goodman, mother Sarah Goodman. Swindon, Wilts. Wesleyan, piece 2629: Swindon. 1838-1856. Maybe while baptizing in Wilthsire they just named their children with any old surname. Similar to Thomas's son George hale sloper Goodman, the hale sloper part which appears to have no connection that I can find. He was, however, born in Rickmansworth, sorry Wiltshire.
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Hi, in desperation I considered Goodman body snatching in Wiltshire but I am pleased to say I rejected that temptation. I have, however, emailed a local Wiltshire paper in the search for Goodman ancestors. I have offered to do a DNA test on any willing Wiltshire male Goodman people. Fingers crossed on that one for now.
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:) Ummmm, maybe body snatching would be taking it just a little to far. :o ;D
Good idea to try the local paper though, hope something comes of it.
Maddie
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In case useful / interesting . . . . . .
Bedfordshire forum
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=665541.0
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Hi, thank you Maddie for your comments. Thanks also to you Ray for that link. It was an interesting read. I remember on a census some time ago a person named Goodman Goodman. I thought perhaps it was a mistake at fist when I read it. Unfortunately I didn't keep any reference of the Census details at the time. I later read that the name Goodman could mean husbandsman ( a small scale farmer). Another definition of Goodman was the title used instead of Mr or Mister. It was used for men from a lower social rank. Goodwife was used, for the lower female social rank, instead of Mistress. It was sometimes shortened to Goody instead of Mrs, Miss or Ms. Even more confusing When you consider the practise of some manorial workers adopting the surname of their master. Therefore it is hardly surprising that other surnames appear side by side with the name Goodman. Then of course you have the people who used alias surnames to perhaps avoid taxes, or removal orders as they moved from one borough county to another.
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Hi, pleased to say that the Gazette & Herald (Wilts) have published my piece. Hopefully now some Wiltshire Goodman male will agree to part with his DNA. I have started putting some requests on ancestry also. Although most of the public trees for Wilts have also got Thomas born 1766, which wouldn't really advance my search. Next time I visit ancestry I will post messages on some more trees. Perhaps trees which have a Thomas, or a different first name, with a different birth year.
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Fair play to you !!! we are at our most points now ...i must salute you for your trying ...there is a salisbury jounal to try but i think that might be at kew ...was meant to go this year but ended up boating to much for the charity i help ......its on my mind all time ...maybe when winter sets in and things calm down more ...might do a trip there ...if we can all get a list written together that i can tick off when i go ...that would be a great help ....then i have somethoing ot aim for and work through ...i WILL DO IT ...I just need a list ............
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Hi Caz, thank you for your comment. Well done to you for doing charity work, boating. I had a look at Salisbury Wiltshire. It would be a nice place to visit as it has a nice medieval cathedral. However, I am unable to see where the nearby places would relate to Rushall, where Thomas was supposedly born. Near Salisbury is Warminster, Stonehenge, Amesbury, Andover, Basingstoke, Wilton, Winchester, Shaftesbury, Ringwood, Bournemouth, Romsey and Southampton. I know that there may have been Goodman folk at some of these places around the 1700s. Some of these places do ring a bell. Were you thinking of Wiltshire in general rather than looking at nearby places to Rushall. For those places I wouldn't even know where to start with a list at this stage. Maybe worth looking into further though.
When I looked up Shrewsbury Shropshire, where Thomas's second wife claimed to be born, there were even Goodman people there also, (around that time frame).
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Hi, I have emailed the Wiltshire FHS for help with Thomas Goodman born 1766, two links as was suggested by their secretary. I have also being busy leaving messages on ancestry public member trees. I haven't given up on Thomas, not that he deserves such loyality. He could have left some clues, at least, especially with regards to his baptism.
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Hello to all you Hertfordshire forum rootschatters. I have not being in the UK for some weeks, therefore, I have had to give my Goodman search a semi-rest for awhile. Having said that great effort continues behind the scenes by the other determined descendants of Thomas Goodman and Zilpah (nee Harding). I have had a reply from the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald from an interested reader who will hopefully send me some promised info re Wiltshire/Goodman. I have had two replies from messages that I left on ancestry. No offers to take a DNA test as yet. I have just emailed 'Keith's ancestors' a tree that I found years ago online & recently I was reminded of this person again. Hopefully he will reply as he mentioned Thomas Goodman born 1766, Wiltshire. He also mentions Zilpah Harding, Rickmansworth marriage etc. I haven't, personally, received a reply from the messages I left with the Wiltshire famy history society. Although one of the above 'determined descendants' did get some assistance with searches. Keep digging folks, we may strike gold yet.
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Hi rootschatters, busy time of year although I am happy to say that the Goodman band of merry workers are still hard at work. Still looking for confirmation of the birth place of Thomas Goodman born 1766, Wilts. The census is difficult to read although we have come to the conclusion that as there is no Russell in Wiltshire it is unlikely to be Russell. The most likely is Rushall. Please let me know what you think, I will try to upload an attachment.
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Sorry folks that came out much bigger than I expected. It is the second from the bottom. At present the search goes on for any people, surnames, connected to the Thomas Goodman family members. No volunteers as yet for DNA testing from Wiltshire. I was in contact recently with a family member from Australia, who informs me that she has met the family of 'Keith's ancestors'. Sadly, Keith is no longer of this world, although he leaves behind an excellent tree, which I found, by chance on the internet. However, Keith was stumped with the Thomas Goodman birth issue also. His line came from Robert Goodman, son of Thomas. Robert would be an uncle of my George Goodman born 1844.
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Hi to all you hard working rootschatters and Merry Christmas. Lets hope we all have better luck in 2014 with finding our ancestors. I am fortunate that I am living near to the area where my paternal ancestors came from. I am also near to the workhouse where a lot of them ended up. It makes me wonder what sort of Christmases that they experienced, bless them all.
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Hi
From the non-Goodman to the Goodman researchers = Happy New Year!
Ray
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A Very Happy New Year to all from me too. ;D
Maddie
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Hi, thank you Ray and Maddie for your greetings. I am at now concentrating on the children of Thomas Goodman. I believe that I have got as far as I can go, at present, with my ancestor George Goodman born 1844, grand son to Thomas Goodman and son of James Goodman. It is useful that James, born 1801 Rickmansworth, was a Blacksmith by trade as it makes it easier to cancel out other James Goodman people. Not so easy with his father Thomas who hasn't really got anything to make him stand out. Although, Thomas's wife's christian name is fairly unusual, Zilpah (nee Harding). Identifying children born to them was not too difficult as a result. Finding evidence of Thomas Goodman's birth place in Wiltshire is another matter entirely. Equally why he named one child, George Hale Sloper Goodman also remains a mystery.
Speaking of GHS Goodman. I believe that in the 1841 census George is living with his wife Ann Goodman, (nee Turner) in Batchworth Rickmansworth. HO 107/438/22. I noted that on the census, following Batchworth Wharf there is Batchworth Bridge. It appears that George and Ann are living at the latter. Sarah Gristwood, Thomas and George Gristwood are also living there. Not sure if they are next door to each other or in the same house. Also could the mention of the bridge mean that they were in a barge boat under the bridge and perhaps not in a house at all.
I know that in the present time there is a bridge marked with the name Batchworth, which is directly over the canal. I wonder if the buildings that remain, near to the bridge, would have been part of the Wharf. I think, presently, there is a museum housed there and a general information point.
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Hi everyone, I am not having a rest just in case you think that I am, hee hee. I got a family tree maker for Christmas and I am busy putting all sorts onto it. Hopefully it will go onto ancestry public member tree eventually. Busy getting myself in a right two and eight just now although it should all come together in the end. I am looking forward also to going to the London FH event again this year. Other than that I am still up against a brick wall with Thomas Goodman, grandfather of my George born 1844. Also I haven't found any further info on George (Junior) born 1881. There is some implication that he may have been in the army at the same time as my grand father Hubert. George (junior) was last at the boys home on the Watford 1891 census. He was later believed to be alive and living in London according to Hubert's army papers.
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Hi all, I have been finding some more information on the children of Thomas & Zylpah Goodman. With the kind help of Maddie I have found some more death dates. This is making the list on my Ancestry tree appear more conclusive and if I am honest making me feel less stuck. I was reading about past Wiltshire floods cira 1770s. No clues as to why Thomas said that he was born there though, abt 1766. He may have moved to Hertfordshire for many reasons, work, family and even the possibility of natural disasters, such as flooding. It must have been just as rough for our ancestors with flooding and probably little or no government aid. When I visited Wiltshire in the summer I walked a little way along the river bank. Seeing the area on T.V. now, it is hard to imagine that it is the same area. Aw well, back to the drawing board with Thomas.
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Grove Cottage Whippendell Road Watford. Does anyone know if it still exists. If it was a private property or part of an organization. It appeared to come after no. 287. I found a George Goodman living there in 1918. Just wondering if he was the son of my ancestor George Goodman.
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Hi all, sorry about my last post, rude of me not to even say Hi. I was a bit stressed out trying to get the attachment to fit. I lost all my last message and I did say Hi on that one. I attended the 'Who do you think you are' event again this year. I was a bit disappointed not to have got any further with my quest for Thomas Goodman born abt 1766, Wiltshire. He appears to have moved to Hertfordshire at some point in his life. I did visit the Wiltshire stall also but to no avail.
Re my last post I did wonder about George (junior) whether he continued living in Watford, after he left the boys home in Queens Road. He was in the boys home on the 1891 census. George was believed to be still alive around the 1900s, according to his brother Hubert's attestation papers. It did state elder brother living in London. As it was written in Ireland, London may have been used instead of Watford, as London would be more recognizable in Ireland.
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Hi
I've just run up there and back. [ Yeah ? :-) ]
287 (now) is almost the last terraced cottage coming out of Watford, on lhs, as you reach the 4(5) way junction at Queens Road. [ 289 then the hair salon then QueelsRd ].
The copy of the page is so bad that I cannot read the rest [ sorry! ]
Where did you find the page? Is it online?
Just wanted to see who lived around him.
Cheers!
{ an out-of-breath ]
Ray
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Hi all, thank you Ray for your reply and for the mini marathon, hee hee. It was good of you to look that info up for me. Sorry about the attachment, I will try and upload a clear copy. It was the 1918 electoral register, which I found at Watford Library while looking up stuff for someone else.
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Oh dear, I am not really good at the attachment KBs, am I. The page states, at the right hand side. Residence or property occupied and abode od non-resident occupier. The numbers, from top, starting with William Blanchard James are 247, Richard Robert, Dickinson 247, William Henry 265, Gibson, James Scott, 267 and 287 has, Hempsall, Richard Charles. George Goodman, Tamplin, Henry and Steer, Edward these seem to be grouped under Grove Cottage. The last name has "Arras", next to it.
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Happy Mother's Day to all you Rootschatters, sorry it is a late greeting. Maddie has recently helped me, once again, by finding a possible Rushall Goodman connection. Thomas Goodman, (grand father to my ancestor George), born abt 1766 claimed to be born in Wiltshire. On the census, it appeared to be written as place name Russell Wilts.
There was a public hanging of a John Goodman at Devices, Wiltshire in 1824, which was published in a local newspaper. "The execution of Edward Amor and John Goodman". John had frequented the Charlton Cat Pub/Inn around the time in question. He described returning there from Russel, (his home). This is possibly an old Wiltshire name for Rushall. Charlton is a neighbouring village of Rushall.
Although locating a Goodman family in the area in 1824 is a later date as Thomas was already in Rickmansworth by at least 1795. His marriage banns were first read on 19th July 1795 when he married Zylpah Harding. Still it does go to prove that there were at least one family in that specific area of Wiltshire. Just need another connection now, no pressure folks...
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Happy Easter to you all. George (junior) Goodman may have sent me an Easter gift also. I found an article that may very well refer to George, the son of George born 1844. Another member of James Goodman's family, Thomas Goodman, appears to have gone to New Zealand. In a will Thomas mentions his sister Elizabeth, his diseased brother George and his nephew George. I believe the nephew mentioned is my George (junior) Goodman. Thomas's father was James Goodman, the Blacksmith, from Rickmansworth. He was the son of Thomas and Zylpah Goodman. I have, with Maddie's kind help, ordered the death cert of Thomas from New Zealand. I will let you all know the outcome of that. Fingers crossed for now though.
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Hiya!
Did you really mean . . . . .
? "his diseased brother George"
or
? "his deceased brother George"
:D Ray
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Hi Ray, silly me, I did mean deceased. Although George did die of a type of TB therefore I suppose he was a bit diseased too, hee hee.
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Hi all
For any one who wants to follow this new chapter in the Goodman hunt take a look at this new thread on the NZ board.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=684607.0
Those chatters are absolutely brilliant. ;D
Maddie
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Hi, thank you Maddie that was kind of you to add the link. I haven't mastered how to put links on roots as yet.
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Hi all, I received my NZ printout of Thomas Goodman's death in 1907 in NZ.
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Hi, I didn't expect that attachment to work, phew pleased that it did. Perhaps George (junior) was playing with me after all. In the respect that there are some concerns with the cert details, as per usual in FH, much as I love the hobby. This Thomas appears to have come to NZ in abt 1867. Born in Essex is another concern. Still, I mustn't pin all my hopes on the cert as there has been at least two other references found of Thomas Goodman in New Zealand which does look promising. The search goes on at present.
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Hi, pleased to say that as George Junior was referred to as McCarthy it pretty much confirms a connection to the Thomas from Hillgrove NZ. Elizabeth Seabrook, George senior sister, appears to have moved from Hagden lane in a second paper article that was found.
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Hi all, Spades from Rootschat, NZ, kindly went to Wellington archives on my behalf re Thomas Goodman. Spades sent me a file today concerning the information available 1907/08 on Thomas Goodman's probate. It was in fact a life policy for £150.00, from what I can read. I suppose in 1907/08 that was a fair amount. Of course it doesn't give any further detail on the person or his relatives. I expect the newspapers gave as much information as was available. I am very grateful for the information as I would not have been able to view the probate myself.
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Hi [ All ]
Don't know if anyone has this (I'll record it anyway) . . . . .
Death notice of Frederick Goodman. Croxley Green Died 18th August aged 29
Watford Leader page 8 22/08/1893
Ray
Hope all are well?
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Like a 183 bus, none for hours then 2 come along at once . . . . .
Title: News after 14 months : Croxley man prisoner of Japs
West Herts Post & Watford Newsletter page 6 08/04/1943
Subject: Prisoners of war
Croxley Green
Lance Sgt Raymond Goodman
Portrait
Ray
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Hi Ray & everyone. Thank you for those Goodman posts Ray. 1783caz has found those also and some others. There appears to quite a lot of interest around the military side of FH at present, which has made it possible to find new entries on the internet lately. I know that the 100th WW1 anniversary has a lot to do with it. I was just thinking that Raymond is not one of the usual Christian names used by the Rickmansworth Goodmans. When I received a reply from the lady at the NZ museum she also mentioned names that I had not seen used much. I guess that there were different groups of Goodman people sometimes decided by religion. The below reply mentioned Clementine Goodman who was an old Presbyterian. I couldn't copy all the details to post as it was in box form. The death cert for Thomas confirmed what we knew that he was C/E.
"I have checked the Hampden Cemetery records and have found the following entry:
Row 1
Plot 159
William Wheeler died 30 May 1832 aged 74
Also
Thomas Goodman died 22 December 1907 aged 72
I checked the death notices from both the Oamaru Mail and the North Otago Times but found no entry for Thomas Goodman. However I did find the following entries:
GOODMAN – Clementina, died 24 May 1891 at Oamaru aged 76 years, mother of Mrs Thomas William, Oamaru and Mr R J Goodman, Wellington – Oamaru Mail
GOODMAN – On 25 May 1891 at St Kilda, Nen Street Mrs Clementine Goodman aged 76, mother of Mr R J Goodman, Post & Telegraph, Wellington – North Otago Times 25/5/1891"
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Hi all, I checked out the Watford Directory today to confirm if Elizabeth (Betsy) Seabrook, sister of George Goodman, was living at 52 Hagden Lane, Watford, Hertfordshire in 1913. It appears that she was living there until 1920. From 1921-1926 there is a J.Seabrook living there. I presume that is one of Elizabeth's children, John born 1892. The information also confirmed that 52 Hagden Lane was also know as Sherwood Villa. That in turn confirms that both the newspaper articles, with reference to Elizabeth's missing nephew George, were referring to the same address. After 1926 it appears that the No 52 doesn't exist. Just wondering if it was demolished in its then form and perhaps another building re-erected in later years.
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Hi
There is a terrace within which #52 currently exists.
In the stretch, on the lhs from Brightwell Road (#58 on corner) to the traffic lights.
I have a foto but sem to have mislaid your email address (Send me a pm with it in?)
It looks to me like it is "over 100 years old".
Ray
Coincidence? I was actually looking at a photograph (1965?) of 2x brothers of the same surname(family?) last evening at "The Guild of Sport".
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Hi Ray, that sounds very interesting. I have sent you a PM with my email address. Thank you for your offer of help.
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Hi all, I had a look yesterday at the Rose & Crown pub where Thomas Goodman lodged, with his brother John, before he went to NZ in 1873. These were brothers of my ancestor George Goodman born 1844. It is a lovely old pub, it is on the way to Harefield.
I also had a look at the house in Watford, where Elizabeth, (Betsy), lived from 1902 to 1920. She was the above lads sister, daughter of James Goodman, Blacksmith from Rickmansworth. I was surprised to see that it is just an ordinary terraced house. It must have been fashionable to name houses with such grand names. Sherwood Villa, also known as 52 Hagden Lane. Thank you Ray for pointing me in the right direction. it is a very long bending road and luckily the house is nearer the Vicarage Road section making it easier to locate.
I mentioned in another post that Elizabeth's son John was there until 1926, as per Peacock's Watford Directory. However, the librarian informs me that Kelly's directory is more accurate. John Seabrook only lived there until 1924. A new person, Mrs M. Buckoke appears to be living there from 1925 and for several years later. That confirmed to me that it was the same house as it stands today. Haven't found John after 1924 so far, although I have not really done much searching. I believe that he may have died in 1964 in Watford, aged 72, 4B, 376 FreeBMD.
I did look at Seabrooks in general and there appears to be quite a few living in Watford, right up until 1978, when the Kelly's directories seem to stop. Elizabeth had quite a few children who may also have settled in Watford.
I then tried 192.com and I found three of the 1978 addresses, still with Seabrook. However, I had hoped, (but in vain), to find one address in particular, as the person was there in 1925 and the family until 1978. The name was Fras G. in 1925 and changed to N.M. in 1978. Not sure what Fras stands for. Betsy's husband was George, therefore I was hoping to find a George or even a John. Not sure if these present Seabrooks will be related although I may write to them and see if anyone has any FH info.
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You were in Whippendell road whilst I was having my gastroscopy 200 yards away!
We could both have had a "cup of tea" in the Rose&Crown (I needed it) afterwards
Talking about Whippendell Road,
I used to be in an "act" named "The Whippendells"
then [they} brought out a copycat act named "The Chippendales".
Fantastic memories . . . . .
Still looking for "Eastbury Cottages" for young Caz.
Stanmaptsone pointed out a map I hadn't seen before.
Cheers!
Ray
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Hi Ray, thank you for your message. I was in Hagden Lane, near enough to Whippendell Road. Sorry to hear that you had to endure that gastroscope. We will have to put that cup of tea on hold for now. I hope everything turns out ok for you.
Maddie has, kindly, been turning out those Seabrook generations like wildfire for me. I will try and get my head around it all tomorrow. Having to work, especially long day shifts, can be so inconvenient sometimes, especially were FH is concerned, hee hee.
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Hi all, I have written to four Seabrook families in Watford by SAE and I have included my email address. I had to pick four from what came up with 192.com although I had no real reason to choose these otherwise. Two families appear to live close to each other. At least three of the four have been in those houses as a Seabrook for some years. Fingers crossed for now. Good luck Jtas with your Ward family. We are both working Maddie hard lately. I am very greatful for her input and skill.
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Hi folks, I received a reply from a Seabrook lady today who lives in Watford. My ancestor's sister Elizabeth (Betsy) Goodman married George Seabrook. Although it was good of the lady to reply she was unable to offer any information. She mentioned that she was named Seabrook by marriage only. She did not know of any earlier Seabrook history. I hadn't thought of that possibility. It was a shame that she didn't mention the name of her husband. It may have been useful to try and go backwards. Especially as Maddie has managed to, near enough, go up to present time with George and Elizabeth's descendants. Aw well, I will have to put my thinking cap back on again. In the meantime I await any further replies from the remaining three letters. This is my second time writing this I appear to have lost the first post. Does that happen to anyone else as I know it has happened to me before also.
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Hi, I had a convict staring me in the face and I nearly didn't see him. Luckily Maddie spotted him and pointed me in the right direction. It was John Goodman born abt 1811, son of Thomas and Zylpah (Sophie) Goodman. He was an uncle of my ancestor George Goodman (b.1844). He was transported to Tasmania (Australia) in 1836, aged 25, on the ship Eden, just before Christmas. He was tried earlier 07/04/1936. He was noted as being single. He was transported for Larceny. He had previous history of offences, stealing 2 bushels of potatoes, for stealing fowl and for poaching. He was discharged by parliament in 1847. He may have settled in Tasmania after his discharge date.
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An exciting find, makes family history so much more interesting, lets hope we can discover more about his life in Tasmania after being granted his freedom. :D
Maddie
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Hi, thank you Maddie. I just noticed that I put April 1936 instead of April 1836 for the tried date. From looking at a map of Australia, Tasmania seems to be quite a large Island. I wonder how many Goodman people were living there already when John was released.
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Hi, I am pleased with the efforts of the Australian rootschat in trying to find information on John Goodman, convict, uncle of George b.1844. It is very kind of them to take the trouble to search on my behalf. It would make life a lot easier if only there were fewer John Goodman convicts in Australia, around that time. However, it appears that John born abt 1811 is likely to have died in Australia. At present it is a matter of trying to confirm whether he married and had children. Maddie has managed to find some information, which the Australian rootschatters are looking at, at present. It is especially fortunate that they have access to the Australian archives and various other pieces of information.
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Hi all, John Goodman married Charlotte Winter on April 10th 1843 in Australia. Charlotte was Davis before she married William winter. Therefore she is named Charlotte Winter on the marriage cert. She had a daughter Mary Ann with William and a daughter Harriet with John. Harriet did go on to marry George Hayward. She died in 1907 aged 65yrs. There is some discrepancy with her age at marriage etc but isn't there always discrepancies where FH is concerned. John Charlotte and Mary Ann were all freed convicts. I wonder why Charlotte and John got married in an independent chapel as I believe his father Thomas had him baptized in Rickmansworth as C/E. Perhaps Charlotte was from an independent chapel. It is amazing how much has come to light with John since Maddie first spotted him as Thomas's son.
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What an interesting piece of FH John has turned out to be, makes a change from a totally elusive Thomas. :D :D
Just a thought but I wonder if the fact that Charlotte was Welsh could have any bearing on where they married, particularly as it was a Chapel. :-\
Maddie
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Hi, thank you Maddie for your reply. I wondered about Charlotte's nationality. I believe Charlotte and her daughter were transported from Bristol. I wondered if she spoke English as I read somewhere that some of the welsh convicts were only able to speak in their own welsh language. I have posted re the different religion on the Oz board. Also that John married in 1843. I understood his daughter, Harriet, was 65 when she died in 1907, I made her birth abt 1840. I know that her marriage to George Hayward made her age far too young also. However, Not unusual to have differing ages as I well know.
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Hi all, with Maddie's help, once again, I now have identified children for Harriet Hayward (nee Goodman). Her mother, Charlotte, didn't speak English apparently on arrival to Tasmania. Maddie thinks that was why she may have married John in an independent chapel. It appears that Harriet and Charlotte's other daughter married much older men. I am really pleased to have found another son of Thomas and Zylpah. Now I am struggling with William born abt 1804, in Rickmansworth Hertfordshire. He appears as elusive as Thomas his father. If anyone has a spare William Goodman born 1804 I would be grateful for the chance to check him out.
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Hi all, so the search for William born 1804, son of Thomas and Zylpah, has gone cold at present. While searching for Thomas' second wife, Mary's death, Maddie found a Mary Goodman who died in 1853. I searched the burial details at the library and it confirmed that this was not Mary Goodman (nee Pursler). Maddie realized that this Mary was in fact the daughter of James and Sarah. James was the father of my ancestor George born 1844. Therefore Mary is George's sister and she appears to have died unmarried at age 24yrs. I just ordered the death cert today although I am away for a week now. I hope to find the cert when I return. Lets hope it has some interesting detail in it. I was wondering why Mary was unmarried at 24 for instance. That would be old for the times, I guess. A big thank you to Maddie as once again I would have completely missed the connection.
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Hi all, I am pleased to say that the person present at Mary's death was Sarah Goodman which would have been her mother Sarah Goodman (nee Hansted/anstee). They lived at Woodcock Hill, Rickmansworth. The cert didn't mention a house number. Mary died from TB, just like my great grand father George, her brother.
I am now awaiting a death cert for her brother John Goodman. He was baptized 1836 at Rickmansworth, another son of James Goodman (the blacksmith). He married in Middlesex to a Elizabeth/Betsy Lavender. I believe he died in 1909, registered Uxbridge. I was reluctant to order the cert at first as the age is not correct. However, with the Goodman family's past record of not knowing their true ages, it is a likely to be John.
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Good morning all, I also have John Goodman's death cert. he was my ancestor George Goodman's brother. John died Feb 4 1909, Old Grays Cottages Harefield Road. Considering he was baptised in 1836 his age, on the cert, is totally out. On the cert he is listed as being 65 years. He was a general labourer. Unlike a lot of that family he didn't die from TB. He died from Aortic Valve Heart Disease, Heart Failure. His wife, Elizabeth Goodman was present at the death. She was nee Lavender, sometimes called Betsey/Betty. The search still goes on for his grandfather Thomas and his uncle William Goodman....
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Hi
Just in case you hadn't seen this thread (or the later post)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=67261.0
Ray
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Hi Ray, thank you for the thought and for posting that link. I did have a look at the thread and it does appear that many of the christian names are similar to my Goodman people. Having said that, in the past, I have not been able to connect the Bucks Goodman folk with mine. I did post a message, some time ago, to a roots chatter who mentioned having quite a lot of experience of Goodman research in Bucks. However, she replied that she didn't think that there was any connection to my ancestors.
I was just about to have a rest from FH, having met yet another Goodman brick wall. Thomas 1766, George (junior) 1881 and now William 1804. Then Maddie came up trumps yet again, she found me another piece of history. This time it was my grand father Hubert and his brother George, (as above). It was a document of Rickmansworth National School's admittance form 1887. Each day has an entry. On the 13th of June, Hubert and George Goodman are mentioned as having started at the school.
Their father George died a year later and it appears that his death split the family. I have posted on Canada roots again re George and possible Canadian military records. My family seem to think George was in the military also.
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Hi all, sadly my mother passed away recently. She married into the Goodman family. She lived in the same house as my Grandfather, Hubert Goodman, George Goodman's son. Mary Goodman, my great grand mother, (nee McCarthy), also lived in that house for a short time. My brother found a photo which appeared to be stuck to a canvas backing. Not sure if this was how the photo was originally. The photo was of a fairly young man and we are not aware of who this young man was. Around the young man there appeared to be charcoal sketched lines & squiggles. It reminded me of some of those charcoal street drawings you see abroad. Although the photo appeared too good to be a drawing. I wondered if perhaps it was taken out of a frame and the canvas backing just got stuck onto the photo. I tried to peel the canvas back to see if there was any writing on the back. However, I had to stop as it started to cause the photo to crumble. Could this be a photo of Mary Goodman's son George junior or could this be a photo of her husband.
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Hi all rootschatters, wishing you all a very Happy Christmas and the best of look searching your ancestors in 2015. George Goodman's army career has always been an uphill struggle for me with my research. Whereas his son, my grandfather Hubert's military info, was not too difficult to find at all. I have searched for so long for George's military info and even paid researchers, without success. I eventually found very limited army information concerning George Goodman myself. Recently, when sorting through my childhood home I discovered two pieces of information, one concerning George and one concerning his wife Mary. Bless my belated parents, although it has made me realize that, sometimes, there is more tucked away in family homes than even the owners realize.
When George was discharged from the Cumberland, 31st Regiment of foot, where he enlisted in 1871, he then joined the reserves, abt 1877/78. He appears to have another number 1882, for the Ist Battalion, 16th Regiment of foot. He was discharged from that service in 1883 at Bedford, confirming his place of residence Bury Farm, Rickmansworth, Herts. Apparently he had a mole on his left cheek. From the previous photo that I posted, it appears that the person did not have a mole on his left cheek. I guess then that person in the photo may have been one of George's sons, not George as a young man.
It also confirms that Mary Goodman (nee McCarthy), his wife, was a Midwife and a monthly nurse. Pleased to say that both of them were considered of good character.
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hi brenda,
I got a book for christmas thats called tracing your ancestors through family photographs. One of the examples is a boy with a flat cap on that is the same style as your man is wearing, They have dated the picture as being around 1902 - 5. So could yours be a picture of Hubert as a young man or as you say perhaps it is a picture of missing George. Can you bring it into work along with Georges army papers, it would be lovely to see the originals. You do need to think about preserving them as they would be 140years old,(army papers).
Regards,
jackie.
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Hi Jtas, thank you for your comments. I am pleased to see that you got some FH prezzies for Christmas. My brother has the original military document re George Goodman senior. Luckily he is also interested in FH therefore he will keep everything safely. He has had a copy done professionally for me, which I must say does look very authentic. Also he gave me a copy of Mary's Midwife reference. I hope all you Rootschatters had a good Christmas.
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Hi
It never fails to gobsmack me what you find when you are just browsing.
Just looking at some of the WelwynGC fotos re; an earlier query, and who should turn up?
Yup, a "George Goodman" . . . . .
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01emc/
[ He is also mentioned on the following page to that link ]
Ray
ps I remember WELGAR Shredded Wheat from wen I was young
but I didn't realise WELGAR = Welwyn Garden (City).
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Hi Ray, sorry for the late reply. Thank you for that link. That is an interesting article re George Goodman. I estimate that chap to be born abt 1898. My George junior was born 1881, shame as I would have been happy to have claimed that chap. It is good of you to keep my Goodman name in mind. I wasn't aware of that abbreviation for Welwyn Garden City either or that shredded wheat was made in that area.
I found some more photos when I visited Ireland again but they are unlikely to be related to my Goodman family. My father and his brothers and sisters were all born in the family home. I did ask my mom some time back if she knew who the people were but she did not. I use to take photos to Ireland to show my mom and dad when I first met my husband. I found one of my husband's aunt that only I would have known who she was. I also found a photo of a child and an older man. My cousin happened to be present, from England, and she was able to identify the person. My father's sister had taken a photo back to Ireland abt 1945, of her husband's father with his grandson. It goes to show that some photos may not have any direct relation to our ancestors at all. Just another thing to frustrate us FH people.
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Just wanted to say hi! My 5th Great Grandfather was Thomas Goodman, married to Zylpah. Our line comes down through his son James, then down to Elizabeth Ann...
Absolutely fascinating stuff! :)
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A very warm welcome to Roots tsukimoon from me & I'm sure I can say all on this thread. :D
Please shout if there is anything you need help with & I know the Goodman researchers will welcome any new blood. ;D
All the best
Maddie
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Hi tsukimoon, delighted to have you on roots, welcome welcome. Yes, as Maddie mentioned, if you do have any information at all it would be great to see it. I will have to have a look on my tree to see exactly where your line is. There are some Goodman trees on ancestry if you want to have a look at the information to date. I can send you a PM if you like re my own tree.
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Brilliant !!! ....weve got another one thats found us all ... slowly were all find our Goodman lot . :D
tsukimoon ...glad you found it all ...Thomas Goodman is also my 5x great grandfather then i come down from James his son to the next James ...
Weve got quite a few of different lines weve found over time ... If you are on facebook then by all means join the group ...."Goodmans of wiltshire and west herts genealogy " its where im putting all the stuff we find (other than ancestry for those who dont have it ) and a place all parts of the lines can keep/meet in one place ...
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Hi tsukimoon
Good to 'meet' you!
Thomas and Zylpha GOODMAN were my X4 great grandparents
I am descended from James 1801
his son James 1831
his son Arthur 1865
Arthur's daughter was my granny Mary Ann Emma GOODMAN 1892.
With other GOODMANS (Brenda, Maddie and Caz etc )we have been working together to try and find Thomas' parents. No luck yet- but not for want of trying. We are not giving up yet and it will be a day to celebrate when we finally track them down.
Kind regards
Sandra
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Hi all,
I was "walking around 1901 Batchworth" yesterday and, as occasionally happens, spotted a Goodman.
3 actually.
Henry Wm (or Wm H) "the baker, Frederick and Lily.
The interesting thing is that they were in a pub, The Queens Head (long gone from the bottom of Batchworth Hill).
Using Kevan's resources . . . . .
http://pubshistory.com/HertsPubs/Rickmansworth/QueensHead.shtml
The really interesting thing is not just that he (WHG) is there but that he is actually listed (1901C) as "b-in-law"
and the 2x children listed as nephew and niece (to Mr Pearce).
Looking back down the years (but up the list) the surnames of Nichols and Peachey are also "related"
Of course, you are all going to say = "Yeah know all that"
Hey ho, I enjoyed it anyway ;D
Ray
ps1
Birth Jun 1890 Watford 3a 571 Frederick William Goodman
Birth Dec 1891 Watford 3a 582 Lily Minnie R Goodman
Death Jun 1894 Watford 3a 297 Priscilla Ann Goodman ( 37y )
Marr Jun 1876 St. Saviour 1d 63
Henry William Goodman / Priscilla Ann Puddephatt
ps2
Welcome to the recent recruits, and for their benefit, I am not a Goodman, just a happy helper.
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Hi Ray
So as not to confuse any one who happens to look at this thread, ;D those Goodman's you have found are from my Uncle's family & sadly nothing to do with Thomas & Zylpha or their offspring on the thread. Just another incident of the same name but not the same family & in Ricky too. ;) :D
Maddie
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Hi, thank you Ray and Maddie for your comments re the Thomas and Zylpah Goodman family. I have noted that connection with Pearce and Goodman before. I wondered if Pearce is an Irish name as there does seem to be quite a few Goodman marriages with Irish folk, through the centuries. It is good to have information re Henry 'the baker' and family, as it helps to cancel out folk, if nothing else. Please keep digging, when you get a moment, as we may still manage to unearth a connection.
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Hi everyone, its not that I don't love you any more, but I have not had an unstuck moment to report for such a long time. The photo of the chap with the cap, the one that I found in my parents house, was not a Goodman, according to my cousin. He recognised a likeness with my grandmother's family. That was the Heffernan side, my dad's mother.
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Oh dear, enlarging that photo seems to have really distorted it. Thomas Heffernan was my dad's cousin, born abt 1917. That photo was his obituary picture and unfortunately he has his hand on his chin. However, the previous photo with the chap standing shows his full face and I believe that I can now see a Heffernan likeness. On the other hand, the Goodman men folk seem to have a long chin. When I look at my tree, and even some of the photos on Caz's tree, I can see that chin likeness. Therefore, I can now lose all hope of that chap, standing photo, being a Goodman.
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Hi all, I have been looking at Harriet Goodman daughter of Thomas Goodman. She would be a Gran Aunt to my ancestor George Goodman. She married into the Kibble/s family. Maddie has been working very hard on my behalf helping to research that line. She has even managed to find a bargee in the family. One of Harriet's descendant's Emily Kibbles, who married Edward Smith. Edward was a boatman, the captain of the boat Countess and working for John Dickinsons. Maddie found him on the 1911 census in Paddington. His wife and children were in Rickmansworth. He wasn't born in Rickmansworth though. He was born in Wednesbury Staffs. I am really grateful to Maddie for all her skilful research.
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Hi, slight correction to my former post. Harriet Kibble/s (nee Goodman) would have been a sister to James Goodman, (the blacksmith). Therefore, an aunt to my ancestor George Goodman, not a gran aunt. Kibble is not the easiest name to trace, as it was sometimes written as Hibble, Tibbles etc. Once again, well done to Maddie for unravelling the names and details.
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Hi All, I have not had any success with my Goodman family of late. Although my keen interest is just on a back burner for now. My ancestor's grand father, Thomas Goodman, was supposedly born in Wiltshire 1766, before settling in Rickmansworth. That was the birth place of his son James, who was a blacksmith. James was the father of my ancestor George Goodman 1844-1888. I wondered if Thomas came to Wiltshire, with his family from another country. Perhaps having a different religious belief, therefore making the absence of a baptism record likely.
I have often been informed that Goodman could be a Jewish name. I am aware that there were Goodman families in Ireland, but as far as I am aware they were Anglican. Also, I have not been able to connect my Rickmansworth ancestors to tany of those particular families. However, recently, I discovered a newspaper article that referred to a genealogist, Mr Rosenblatt, who had compiled an archive of Irish Jewry, spanning four centuries. He had presented copies of it to the Mayor of Dublin. Apparently, the WDYTYA team had made use of his research in the past.
Irish records are difficult enough to locate, in my experience, as most have been destroyed. I expect any likely Jewish records would be even more difficult to get hold of.
My ancestor George Goodman married in 1875, to Mary McCarthy, who was born in Co. Cork, Ireland. I have had little success with her history. However, there was a famous pipe player named James Goodman, who lived in Cork. He was described as Anglican but could speak the Irish language fluently. Coincidence, I guess, although I would still be interested in reading a list of those Jewish names, even if it was to eliminate any possible Irish Jewish connection.
In the meantime, while being totally stuck with my Goodman ancestors, I am looking at the Ambrosone surname and have posted on the Cornwall forum!
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I would like to wish all Roots Chatters a very Happy Christmas and good luck with all your research in 2016. Nothing happening with George Goodman research at present. I found a nice baby photo in my belated parents house, although the photographer seems to be from Limerick Ireland. George Goodman's son Hubert, (my Grand father), was born in that house. The photo may have belonged to his wife's family. At first I was surprised at how expensive the christening robe looked. Although I have since been informed that, in some photo studios, there was a trend whereby the babies were dressed by the photographer, especially for the photo shoot. Nice old fashioned robe though.
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Merry Xmas Brenda
( and everyone else )
Ray
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Hi, I hope that you all had a Happy Easter. A little information to recap, if I may, as it will hopefully make sense of my post. My ancestor George Goodman b.1844 Rickmansworth was son of James Goodman b.1801, (The Blacksmith). Thomas Goodman b. abt 1766 was supposedly born in Rushall Wiltshire. He later died 1851, in West Hyde, Rickmansworth. Thomas had several children, one of which was George Hale Sloper Goodman. This George would be my ancestor's uncle. A group of us, descendants from Thomas Goodman, have not been able to associate any connection with Thomas and Wiltshire. Also we have not been able to find a connection to Hale Sloper and Goodman. However, Caz, one of our group, has managed to find some reference to Sloper and Goodman as follows:
"First name(s) Jeffrey Last name Goodman Role Apprentice Indenture or registration year 1728 Indenture year 1728 Premium £10 .0s 0d Place - County - Apprentice's first name(s) Jeffrey Apprentice's last name Goodman
Apprentice's parent's first name(s) John Master's first name(s) Robert
Master's last name Sloper
Master's occupation Clothier
Master's place Devizes Master's county Wiltshire
The National Archives reference (IR 1 series) 49 f 34
Society of Genealogists volume 12 Society of Genealogists page 2244 Society of Genealogists number 82427 Record type Records Record set Britain, country apprentices 1710-1808 Category Education & work Subcategory Apprentices Collections from Great Britain"
Although it doesn't move us on any further, it does show some connection with the surnames and Wiltshire. Should anyone have any further to add I will be truly grateful.
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Happy New Year to all Goodman followers, from a non-Goodman! :) :) :) :)
Eternally Grateful ? That's a long time!
Last year, I was going to arrange to have a beer with Caz in my then local area Croxley Green. Did not happen. >:(
I then moved to Devon 8) :P
Guess what is reasonably close? W I L T S H I R E ! :)
Now have a new target . . . . . .
Anyone need any favours? :D
AND, I have a renewed interest in smilies! :o ::)
Ray
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Hi everybody, I hope that you are having a good Sunday. Thank you Ray for your reply and for your offer of help. It is very kind of you but I wouldn't know where to start digging, in Wiltshire, at this stage. Congrats on your move to Devon, all that fresh air, no wonder you feel like smiling. Shame though that you missed out on that drink with Caz. It would be lovely for us all, in the future, to have a Hertfordshire forum 'meet up'.
I went to the WDYTYA event in Birmingham with jtas. I tried the Wiltshire stall again and, although they have vast amounts of info, it is knowing where to start. I couldn't afford to buy all their discs and I know that Thomas Goodman hasn't got a baptismal record at Rushall. As previously a kindly local Vicar searched Rushall and some likely areas on my behalf. However, with this new information, that Caz found, re Robert Sloper master to apprentice Jeffrey Goodman, I have written, once again, to the Wiltshire FHS society for any help. Fingers crossed on that one.
I did manage to get a little information, at the Birmingham event, on Hubert Goodman b.1883 at Rickmansworth. He was my Grand father, son of George Goodman b.1844 Rickmansworth.
The lady from 'the forces stall' under the heading 'hospital admissions and discharges' found that, in 1916, 21st Dec, Hubert Goodman was on, what appeared to be a hospital train. He was admitted in Boulogne France and departed in Bethune. Admitted with Haemorrhoids, (Piles), of all things. Hopefully he managed to eat his Christmas dinner! Unfortunately, the forces lady, did not have any record of Hubert's later 1918 leg amputation, in France, and subsequent admission to a Red Cross Hospital in London. There appeared to be lots of Red Cross Hospitals in 1918, in London. Aw well, it was worth a shot and we had a nice day out.
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Hi all, I trust that you all you rootschatters had a nice summer. Nothing to report on George Goodman unfortunately. Although even on holidays my mind is never too far away from our ancestors, sad really, I know.
I was recently in North Cyprus and found myself looking around a small grave yard! It struck me how dilapidated the graves appeared to be, even though some were not that old. One, for instance, was 1972 and appeared to have Greek writing. Following a little research, I now know that there are no relatives living, in North Cyprus, to look after the graves. This situation arose when the Greeks fled North Cyprus in 1974, when the Turks invaded. I believe a similar situation exists in the south with the Turkish graves. They are either neglected or vandalized or both. However, I have read that a couple of guys, one Turkish and one Greek, are now running a business, although living in opposite parts of Cyprus. The Turkish gentleman attends to the Greek graves of relatives, who pay for his services, from southern Cyprus. The Greek gentleman does the same for Turkish relatives. They have expressed how it is important to strike now, while there are living relatives who remember these departed people. The future generation may feel that the relatives are too distant to do anything about the graves.
In a way my collective family have, in recent years, attended to a similar task. My grandfather, Hubert Goodman, son of George Goodman b.1844, has had his grave restored. Hubert died in the 1950s. My brother organized this and family members each paid an amount towards the restoration. My brother also felt that we needed to do this currently as future generations may not. It was nice to see my Grandfather's WW1 involvement acknowledged on the headstone also.
George Goodman's patch of grass, in Chorleywood Road cemetery, was a pauper's grave, therefore I have no right to do anything structurally to the ground. However, it does concern me, that if the road is widened, as we suspect it may be in the future, this spot will no longer exist.
My Italian in laws, as per their custom, are given the bones of their departed to move into another casket, should space be needed. Although it is easier to do as they tend to be buried above ground in the first place. All this got me thinking generally, as some of us now choose to be cremated, documentation for future generations will be vital. Either in paper form or computerized form, war and floods and fire permitting. Perhaps I have been watching too much T.V about valuable DNA findings in cold cases. Aw well, it is also the month of Halloween and I am hoping that my ghoulish thinking may be excused..
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Happy Christmas everyone good luck in 2017 with family research.
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Hi all, I am feeling quite virtuous at the moment. Having just walked 3 miles to, to the patch of grass, where my ancestor, George Goodman, is buried. Most likely a walk my ancestors also done. Although they probably had no choice but to do that walk daily, if not more frequently.
However, in the light of all that effort, on my part, you would think that my ancestors would deem fit, to provide me with a little more information, but alas no dice.
Just had a recent tip from Maddie, concerning FindMyPast, putting more records on their site. Subsequently, Maddie and Jtas have both been fortunate, in that they have made some recent discoveries using FindMyPast. Well done to them both. Oh, and remember, it is my turn next, ha, ha.
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Hi everyone, hopefully you have all had a nice Christmas and a good start to 2018.
My ancestor, George Goodman, son of the Blacksmith, James Goodman from Rickmansworth. He was one of several children. One brother, in particular, seemed to be a bit of a ‘bad Boy’. He was named Henry Goodman. He was the father of an illegitimate daughter, Eliza Sims. Eliza’s mother was Jemima Sims. There are records available for Henry, concerning his daughter, and his behaviour whilst serving in the army. Recently, I was contacted by a lady who’s ancestor was Jemima Sims. She was unaware of Eliza’s birth. Although we have no DNA connecting us, it was good to find another person viewing the Rickmansworth Goodman line.
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Evening all. I visited Watford Reference today, mainly searching for info for my son! However, I couldn't resist another look at Watford Local History section. My ancestor George Goodman b.1844 died on Bury Farm, Batchworth, Rickmansworth, in 1888. I found a picture of Bury Farm and a description of Bury Farm cottage, where he lived with his family. On his death cert his occupation is described as a cowman. Apparently the farm buildings included, 'a good cowhouse for twenty four'. Wouldn't want to think my ancestor was slacking or anything, ha ha. Poor man died of a TB related illness, probably inevitable working with cows.
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There was a cottage attached to Bury Farm House but alas no photo found.
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Do you know what happened to Eliza? I can't find her after 1871. I'm researching my extended tree and I was curious on her story.
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Hi, sorry to say no I don’t. Even Maddie, on rootschat, who is a wizz at finding ancestors, tried but was unable to find Eliza. There was a servent in, I think, camberwell London, who died 1870s but this did not pan out. Hope you have better luck. There are two others, that I know of, researching Eliza also. Probably find messages on my tree on ancestry. As far as I know they were also stuck.
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Hi, just searched The National Archives for Wiltshire wills. I was hoping to find some connection with the parental family of Thomas Goodman, before he moved moved to Ruckmansworth. I searched 1700-1900. I came across six Goodman wills as follows:
1776 Henry Goodman, gentleman of Easton, Wilts.
1790 John Goodman, gentleman of Rowde, Wilts.
1794 Joseph Goodman, servant to the Marquis of Landsdown, Wilts.
1823 Sophie Goodman, widow of Devizes, Wilts.
1827 John Goodman, Calne, Wilts.
1856 Rev Maurice Hiller Goodman, clerk of Wilcot, Wilts.
I suppose some could be eliminated such as the Rev as I know he just came to Wiltshire later. I expect the two gentlemen would be a class above. The servant, John from Calne and Sophie could be a possibility. Even if the connection was uncle, brothers or sister in law it would be something. I wish that I had found these before my trip to Wiltshire Archives. Still, I know that these wills can be ordered online but which one if any is the question.
I have transcribed some Goodman Wills from Wiltshire. I have traced my ancestry back to Henry Goodman who died in about 1692. His descendants can be seen here: http://www.historyandnews.co.uk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I5014&ged=webgreen4.GED
He was my 8x Great Grandfather. The Wills I have transcribed can be seen here: http://www.historyandnews.co.uk/index.php?topic=Goodman
The Rev Maurice Hiller Goodman was from Wiltshire. The Victoria County History of Wiltshire explains the Goodman's connection with Oare House in Wiltshire:
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol10/pp190-204
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Hi Antiqueone, thank you for your message. I am always delighted to hear from any Goodman researcher. It was very kind of you also to share those links. I may have already mentioned, on this thread, that I had my dad's DNA tested. It was some years ago; he has since died. There is a Goodman project on that, American company, DNA site.
I have confirmed the Rickmansworth Goodman connection with DNA and document evidence.
With my great great great grandfather, Thomas Goodman b.1766, I have not been able to confirm any connection to Wiltshire; despite having the census reference.
It did seem strange to me that my Goodman family, DNA, did not appear to match with any other Goodman families in ‘the Goodman project’. There were very few matches with any surnames. Although, I am aware that, at that time, most of the Goodman families tested were likely to be American citizens. However, as you are aware, some Goodman families, from England, emigrated to America and other places.
I later had the rickmansworth person’s, kindly donated, DNA tested.
Later another Goodman agreed to be tested. He, unlike my ancestors, appeared to have several DNA matches on the basic level; with different surnames but unfortunately not a match with my ancestors.
Then I discovered that a son of Thomas named his child George Hale Sloper Goodman. That offspring died without having children himself. Therefore, the name, having suddenly appeared, disappeared again.
I have contacted Hale Sloper family researchers but I am unable to establish a connection. There were Sloper families in Wiltshire and a Reverend Sloper in Hertfordshire at one stage. I believe that it was not unusual, at that time, for a child to be named after a godfather.
My not finding a Goodman Wiltshire connection could be because the line was broken somewhere, because of perhaps illegitimacy.
That is where I am stuck, sorry to say.
It sound like you have made great progress with your Goodman research. Good luck in the future.
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My Goodman links are rather ancient Ann Goodman married John Pearce in 1773 and she was my 5x Great Grandmother and I've managed to trace Goodmans back to my 8x Great Grandfather so I would very much doubt that my DNA would show any links to Goodmans. Luckily my Goodmans were farmers and they all left wills.
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Hi
From the 1851 census I see Daniel Taylor, father, aged 69 born Kempton Hampshire, Sophia Taylor, mother, aged 56 born Hatfield Hertfordshire, Daniel Taylor, son, aged 24 born Chelsea & William Goodman Taylor, son, aged 21 born Chelsea.
The marriage for Daniel & Sophia is on Family Search.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKNZ-4PJ
I'm assuming William was given his mothers surname for his second name as there's no reason to suspect he was born out side of Daniel & Sophia's marriage. :-\
Unfortunately I can't see any records for Hatfield or near by on FS to find Sophia's parentage so it might be worth you contacting Herts Archives & Local Studies, (HALS)
As our Goodman's are in the Rickmansworth & Watford area of Herts I don't think there is likely to be a connection but you never can tell. :)
Maddie
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I am tracing my Taylor family roots and found this thread - you were all very busy! I know the area well as I still have my mother and brother in that part of the UK. :)
My 3rd great grandmother was Sophia Goodman, born 1795 in Hatfield, Herts, married to Daniel Taylor. The census handwriting is a bit vague - could be Kimpton (somewhere near Watford) Herts, or Kempton, Hants.
Any help would be much appreciated! My tree is available on Ancestry if that helps anyone!
Thanks in advance
Val
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Hi Val, sorry but I am unable to offer any insight. I note that Maddie has replied to you; if there was any connection to my lot she would have found it! Good luck with your research.
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Happy Christmas to all Hertfordshire roots chatters. Hopefully we will all have some luck in our research in 2024.
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Happy Easter everyone. Thinking of how different our ancestors would have celebrated. Beautiful Easter bonnets for a start!