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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: RRYFS on Saturday 05 February 11 20:25 GMT (UK)
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My Pole tree has been thrown into confusion by contact from a GR member who has info at variance to that which has been passed to me. It is probably as a result of there being several Charles & Elizabeth Poles. Could someone (perhaps Mike?) seek out mother's maiden name for John Pole - born 24 August 1829, and baptised 13 September 1829 in Belgrave. I would be very grateful and will probably then seek further answers!
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Greeting’s Again. …RRVFS.
Oh NO..... not the dreaded Pole / Poll(s) / Poole(s)… of Belgrave. !!!!
There’s thousands of um…… :o
Quick....... The PROZAC !!! …….
Leave it with me I’ll see what I can come up with
So you can compare my findings with the other persons……..
MIKE……..
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Hi Mike - thanks. My gran was Mary Ann Pole from a long line of FWKs, but she married well and the picture of her in her fur coat sticks in my mind. I have lots of info passed from others which takes our direct line back before 1600 - they were from Birstall. Ironically, when my grandpa built a house at the front of his yard in Loughborough Road, Belgrave, he got so fed up with people coming round on business when he wasn't working that he gave it to my uncle and built the same house two miles up the road in Birstall - so Mary Ann took the family back to Birstall, for a while! A trawl through the Phillimores for Belgrave is a long list of familiar names - Poles, Hubbards, Berridges, Lumleys, Picks. I have tried to build a database of Poles from Belgrave and then work outwards - but it is so complicated that it gets confusing. This latest question is not in my direct line but has exposed gaps in the census record and thrown doubts into my mind.
Richard
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Greeting’s Again. …Richard.
Just had a whiz around my Discs…….
How’s this grab you ? …….. ;)
St: James the Great. Parish Church.
BIRSTALL.
1829.
Charles Pole. ~ Elizabeth EAMES.
No actual date found. …..Yet
But it was by Banns .
Now……. I see that an Elizabeth Eames married At the same Church.
William YATES…1803 21st May also by Banns
Yates....... is one of your names……..
I’ve helped you with before ……
MIKE……..
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Hi Mike
Thanks - yes I have that, the date was 9th June. I need to prove that John was their son as a first step to answering my new contact. The records I have give him as an only child, but I can't definitely find Charles and Elizabeth in any census. If we can prove John's mother's name, then I have a further question to check out possible relationships.
You are right about Yates - I think that one may have been one of mine, as I am descended from George (b.1800) but not sure before that, though his father was Richard.
regards
Richard
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Greeting’s Again. ..Richard.
Thanks for the date….
By this I assume you have either the Marriage Certificate
Or have seen the details from the Registers ?
Re :~ prove of the surname of John’s Mother. …
This might be difficult to prove……
seeing that we can not call for his birth certificate ( Pre 1837 )
Plus no sign of this family group on a Census to see what Charles occupation was
Which we could match up to occupation given when John was Baptised.
Frustrating……..Have you thought of a Will ?
If Charles made a will stating “ My only Son John.”………
MIKE. ………
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Hi Mike
The dates came down to me from others, but I confirmed the date of marriage from Phillimores. They could be on the 1841 census at Payne's Close, Belgrave (HO107 592 10/9 13), but in that case there are 3 younger sisters. The date for Charles is also well out for what I have on a handwritten tree which we believe was produced in the 1980's from visits to the record office. It has Charles (b.1794) and the correct date of marriage, but goes no further. There is a tree which belongs to a guy who I was told is a History Professor at Melbourne University, which has Charles at 1794, gives Elizabeth as b.1811 (which matches the 1841 details above) and does include the younger sisters. My current problem arose as the GR contact is descended from Thomas (bp. 24.4.1835 at St Georges). There are a whole raft of apparent siblings bp. at St George's and I think they are all on the 1841 at Stamford Street, St Margaret (HO107 604 2/16 25). He thinks the parents are Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames. The 1841 originals are incredibly faint and I can't make out any more detail than the transcript provides. Now I think these must be two separate families, but I need to establish which Charles and Elizabeth is which, and whose tree is hence incorrect (if not both). I don't have St George's marriages (I have looked on St Mary's and St Margaret's in the IGI batches, but can't find another Charles and Elizabeth, whose first children appear to be twins (b.1826)). (Oh enough brackets to make an equation!).
I was just wondering if mother's maiden name might just appear in the original register. I have also not been able to find Charles and Elizabeth on censuses, despite having dates of death in 1884 and 1881 respectively. Just went to check again and found in 1881 the Charles and Elizabeth who have John in 1841 (but Charles shown as b. Nottingham) at 3 Claremont Street, Belgrave. More confusion! If that is true, they are unlikely to be part of "my" Pole family at all!
That will then leave me looking again for Charles Pole (b.1794 Belgrave), son of Charles Pole and Elizabeth Oswin who were married in Belgrave 6th Jan 1783.
Complicated or what? Any assistance gratefully received!
best wishes
Richard
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Greeting’s Again. …Richard. ……
I have had a good look at those Census returns via my digital scanned
Files on Discs of the 1841 Census
which are crystal clear. ....... 8)
not faded as Anc*
I strongly believe the Charles & Elizabeth at Belgrave are your line to follow
The reasons are as follows :~
Payne’s Close Belgrave.
Charles is a Frame Work Knitter.
Wife’s Christian name is Elizabeth.
John born 1829 is within this household.
By the way there is a Claremont Street within Belgrave just off Checkets Road.
The other Charles in Leicester details.
Charles was a Carpenter.
His Wife’s Christian name is ELIZA. Not born within Leicestershire.
NO John within the household.
Armed with this information on the occupations for both Charles
I will now look at the baptism 1829 at Belgrave for John
Hoping that the Occupation is given on the register
held at the Records Office .
A lot of the Registers for St: Georges Parish Church. Leicester
were lost in the great fire of 1911. which destroyed most of the church
MIKE. ….
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Hi Mike - Thanks again. My unclear census returns are on FindMyPast! I know Claremont Street - my gran was a regular at Claremont Street Methodist all her life until she moved to Worcestershire to live next door to us. My grandfather's building business was in Checketts Road in about 1912. I think I am clearer about which family is on my tree, and which is on this other guy's. Trouble is, I now think the one on my tree shouldn't be! I've checked all the censuses for Charles and Elizabeth - very confusing. Free BMD has the right deaths in 1884 and 1881, but Charles' age is wrong (and it still looks like he was born in Nottingham). I'll be grateful for any further info - esp if you can find a St George's marriage or a mother's maiden name somewhere - or a Belgrave birth for Charles Pole in 1794!
Cheers
Richard
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Greeting’s Again. …Richard. ……
Who’s this grab you ?
St: Peter’s Parish Church.
Belgrave.
ANNO DOMINI :~ 1794.
Charles. Son of Charles & Elizabeth POOL.
Baptised ….3rd. August.
MIKE. ….
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Greeting’s again. …Richard.
Following a trip to the Records Office today………
St: James the Great Parish Church.
Birstall.
Marriage Registers …Read thus:~ . …….
1829.
Entry No’. 52.
Charles Pole. Of the Parish of Belgrave. Bachelor.
Elizabeth Eames. Of this Parish. Spinster.
Were Married in this Church
This Ninth Day of June.
One Thousand Eight Hundred and Twenty Nine.
By Banns
By me :~ Richard Stephens Vicar.
Both made their Marks :~
Charles. ….X
Elizabeth. …+
In the Presence of :~
John Billington.
Fanny Sibson.
St: Peter’s Parish Church.
Belgrave.
Baptism Registers read thus :~
1829.
Entry No’. 473.
13th. September.
John. Born 24th. August.
Son of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Abode. …..Belgrave.
Charles’s Occupation …Frame Work Knitter.
Edward Bowman. Chaplain to the Asylum for Female Orphans Lambeth. London.
Officiating Minster.
I think you’ll have to agree this proves
that John is the Son of Elizabeth née Eames. From Birstall.
who’s husband is your Charles from Belgrave.
Therefore the other Charles & Elizabeth in Leicester are another couple.
Challenge the other contact to prove his Elizabeth is Elizabeth Eames……..
I’ll be prepared to supply photo prove of all the above should you require.
I had a look at an old map of Belgrave held at the Records Office
Payne’s Close was just off Checketts Road
1st on right from Melton Road
now named Paynes Street.
Not far from Clermont Street. ….
MIKE. …..
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Hi Mike
Thanks very much for all your efforts. Its really brilliant of you to go searching round the records office on behalf of complete strangers.
Sorry to keep taking up your time! I don't really have a problem with the other family - they apparently departed for London in the 1850s. My problem is that all this has highlighted significant inconsistencies. We have Charles Pole, son of Charles and Elizabeth, bp 3 August 1794. We have a marriage in 1829 between Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames. I have found a record in Birstall for Elizabeth Eames (bp. 18 Feb 1810). We then have John (b. 24 August 1829). The records I have show John married to Martha which matches census entries and leads directly to their daughter Beatrice who was the grandmother of the source of much of my tree.
Now, on the 1841 census, there is a family with Charles and Elizabeth, John and sisters. Elizabeth has year of birth of 1811 and born Leicestershire. Charles has year of birth of 1811, and where born apparently blank. There is no sign of them in 1851 and 1861, but by 1871 in Birstall Street, St Margaret (RG10 3277 30 16) there is Charles (1811) born Nottinghamshire, Elizabeth (1810) born Leicestershire together with a son William (1845) born Leicestershire. Then in 1881 we have Charles and Elizabeth at 3 Claremont Street, Charles still born Nottinghamshire, and free BMD gives deaths for Charles and Elizabeth which match the ages from the census, and the dates of death from my tree.
My problem is very simple - if Charles was born 1811 in Nottinghamshire, he is not the son of Charles and Elizabeth who you found in 1794, and is very unlikely to be part of "my" Pole family, and which one married Elizabeth Eames is questionable. Not really sure what I can do now to prove anything, and I don't feel able to go back to the originator of the information in my tree to suggest that her family record is possibly wrong. It probably cuts her line off from a family which is traced back to before 1600!
Any suggestions?
Richard
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Hi Mike
After composing all that, an idea arrived - send for a certificate for one of John's siblings. The only one possible from the 1841 census is "Ellen" - 1839. No sign on freeBMD but the IGI has a Helena (b.24 May 1839, bp.16 June 1839) daughter of Charles and Elizabeth, so I think I'll apply for her's, and see what that says.
Richard
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Greeting’s Again. …Richard.
Your Quote. “ There is no sign of them in 1851 and 1861, but by 1871 in Birstall Street,
Unquote. ........
Try these for your missing years…….
1851. Census returns HO107 / 2140 / 134 / Page. 17.
Castle Donnington.
Church Lane.
Charles Pole. Head Mar. 40. Policeman. b Nottingham.
Elizabeth Wife. Dress maker…. b Birstall.
Sarah. Dau. 19. Seamstress….. b Belgrave.
Emma. Dau. 15. Seamstress. …b Birstall.
Eleanor. Dau. 11. Seamstress... b Belgrave.
Charles. Son. 8. Scholar………… b Belgrave.
William. Son. 6. Scholar………… b Enderby.
1861. Census returns. RG 9. / 2299 / 36 / Page. 23.
Leicestershire.
Somerby.
Charles Pole. Head Mar. 50. Police Officer. b Nottingham.
Elizabeth. Wife. 51. Dress maker. b Birstall.
Baptisms found :~
St: Peter’s Belgrave.
1829.
John. born 24th August. Son of Charles & Elizabeth Pole,
Bapt. 13th. September.
1832.
Sarah born 23rd. February. Daughter of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 18th. March.
1836. St James Parish Church. Birstall.
Emma. Dau. of Charles & Elizabeth Pole. Bapt. 17th. April.
1839. St: Peter’s Belgrave.
Helena. Born 24th. May. Daughter of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 16th. June.
1842.
Charles. Born 10th. May. Son of Charles & Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 29th. May.
1850.
William. Born 28th. February. 1844.
Mother Elizabeth Pole.
Bapt. 27th. January. 1850.
I believe John Pole ( b c 1829) Married a Martha Brown of Rothley
MIKE. …..
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Hi Mike
Thanks again - that was a good find - which registration district does Castle Donnington come under? Just as an aside, my dad and my elder brother, who is also no longer with us, saw the Mercedes and Auto Unions race at Donnington Park before the war!
The big issue with this family is the age for Charles and the b.Nottingham bit. Charles, who married Elizabeth Eames was (as you recorded above) born in Belgrave in 1794. His father, Charles Pole, was also born in Belgrave, and his mother, Elizabeth Oswin was from Sileby.
I have sent for the birth certificate of Helena (or Eleanor, or Ellen) b. 1839, so in March I may have more idea. The tree which I have acquired, inherited, occasionally researched, has good details of John Pole and Martha's family as my original source is the granddaughter of their daughter, Beatrice.
Thanks again for your help. I will post any further findings here.
Richard
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Hi Richard....
Hopefully things will become clearer once you get the birth certificate.
I looked for a birth for you in Nottinghamshire for Charles - there are 89 Pole christenings; only one Charles & that was for a Charles Robert Pole, 1828.
One thing I did notice..... and may be a red herring....
The marriage that Mike has given you for Charles Pole & Elizabeth Eames, has one of the witnesses as John Billington and on the 12th July 1824 at Nottingham St Mary there is a marriage for a Thomas Billington to a Sarah Pole.
I have been lurking in the Newspaper's again!.... even they show some discrepancies to the information you have....with the couple both dying in 1884, the newspaper and FreeBMD having her as Eliza.
Have you seen the Will listed on Ancestry for Charles & Eliza 1884? on the entry for Charles it says proved at Leicester by John Pole of 317, Humberstone Rd, Leicester in said county, the son one of the executors.....
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The Leicester Chronicle: or, Commercial and Agricultural Advertiser (Leicester) Saturday, June 15, 1844
Deaths
On Sunday, aged 46, Eliza, wife of Mr Charles Pole, Carpenter, Friar Lane.
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Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester), Saturday, May 24, 1884
Deaths
Pole - On the 20th ult, ELIZA, wife of Charles Pole, 51 Claremont Street, Belgrave, aged 68.
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Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester), Saturday, October 25, 1884
Deaths
Pole - On the 13th inst, at his residence, 51, Claremont Street, Belgrave, Mr Charles Pole, superannuated officer of the County Police, aged 74.
===
Kind Regards
Sheila.
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Hi Sheila
Thanks, that's brilliant - I have not really found my way into wills or newspapers so most of that is new. I don't do Ancestry, so don't pick some of those things up.
The Eliza in 1844 is obviously the wife of the other Charles, whose ancestor's message to me on GR started this all off.
Your obituary for Charles just goes to reinforce my doubts since Charles who is definitely in my tree was born in 1794, and the obit of (PC) Charles matches all the census records with a birth date of 1810.
There is definitely an Elizabeth Pole death in Barrow on Soar in 1881 on free BMD (age 71). The 1884 one was 87, and I think I can trace her in my tree. As Mike will tell you, there were oodles of Poles!
I hope the certificate should tell me if the wife of (PC) Charles was Elizabeth Eames. If she was, then I don't think they belong in my tree as Charles (b.1794) was definitely born in Belgrave, and will leave me wondering whether to tell someone else (whose tree is much bigger than mine) that she probably has a fairly large error in her direct line!
Thanks again for the help
Richard
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Hi Sheila
Sudden brainwave, so I looked at marriages on freeBMD. Sept quarter 1882, Barrow on Soar, Charles Pole on the same page as Eliza Holmes!
Richard
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Hi Richard....
I was just going to tell you exactly that!
It will only be by picking things apart that will sort this out.
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Hi Sheila
Still trying to take it all in - I messed up first reply, as I was looking at 1885 Elizabeth, who was 87. If you put Elizabeth in freeBMD it doesn't find Eliza, but if you put Eliza, it does find Elizabeth.
Charles Pole (b.1794) had a sister Sarah (b.1793).
Richard
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It will be interesting to see what the certificate comes up with.....if it is Charles born 1794 then that would have made him 35 if he married in 1829.....if it was the Charles born abt 1810/11 then he would have only been about 19.
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Greeting’s. Again . ….Richard ..
Not sure if you already have this ?
St: Mary the Virgin & St: John the Baptist Church. Rothley.
1850.Entry No’. 149. 2nd December.
John Pole. 21. Bachelor. Frame Work Knitter.
Abode ….Rothley.
Father Charles Pole…Policeman.
Martha Brown. 21. Spinster. Rothley.
Father :~ George Brown. Labourer.
Married in this Church by Banns by Wm. Arians. Vicar.
John signed by his signature.
Martha by her Mark. X.
Wit’s :~
John Sleath or Heath. …not too sure
Eliza Scholfield.
I’ll be scanning those two pages from the family Bible of
William Pole
Presented to him 13th. July 1845.
by the teachers of the General Baptist
Sabbath School Belgrave.
I hope to send it to your E-mail some time over this weekend
MIKE. …..
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Hi Mike
Brilliant again, thanks. I had the wedding, but not the father's occupation, so that proves that the John we were looking at is the family in the census.
I think the William who received the bible was my GG Grandfather's half brother. My GGF was also William, so why they used the name again 20 years later, I have no idea, unless the oldest four didn't approve of their stepmother.
Now waiting in great anticipation!
Thanks again
Richard
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Scans winging their way to your " in box " as I type this .....
MIKE. ...
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Hi Mike
Thanks a lot for that - not the William I thought it was, though I have got details of that family (though not all of them). Not sure where they fit, so I shall try a little more exploration - William's mother was Elizabeth, b. 1808ish in Lubenham. A link will turn up, as all Poles are related in the end!
Richard
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Greeting’s Again. ….Richard……
Going on Williams Bapt. Year with a Mother of an Elizabeth .
Then a Marriage worthy of Note ? :~
1829.
St: Peter’s Parish Church. Belgrave.
Robert Pole. ~ Elizabeth GOUDE.
13th. October.
By Banns.
MIKE. …..
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Hi Mike - yes I think it is them, I have them on the 1841 and 1851 at Mill Hill, and Post Office, Belgrave respectively. By 1861, I assume Robert has died, as Elizabeth is living with William at Leicester Road, Belgrave with children, William, Selina Jane (the give away) and Frederick (aged 4M), but no wife.
On reflection, there is a Robert living at Mill Hill in 1861 (with Richard Pole as lodger - he is direct line to Yvonne who I met on RC), so perhaps Elizabeth is with William to look after the children. If they are connected to Richard, then they definitely fit into my tree somewhere, as Yvonne and I have worked out where our lines come together (In the mid 1700s!).
When I have a minute I will try to find William's marriage, which may lead to a reason why there was no wife in 1861.
Thanks again
Richard
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Hi Mike
William Pole married Annie Smalley on 12th December 1854. Looking at the bible, the second entry is now obviously Annie. She has reappeared by the 1871 census, with them now living in Checketts Close. Can't find her in 1861 with a cursory look, but its probably more important to find out where they fit. Now to pursue Robert through my records.
Richard
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Greeting’s again. …Richard.
Re Second entry ……Annie Pole b 21st. Feb 1831.:~
St: Mary’s Parish Church. LUBENHAM.
Annie. Daughter of John & Jane SMALLEY
Bapt. 13th. June.
And the third entry in the Bible …
John Smalley Pole. b. 29th.June 1855. .
Interesting entry for 1861 census returns for Anne Pole.
RG. 9. / 2281 / 110 / Page. 35. Leicester Road Belgrave.
Anne Pole. Servant. Mar. 30. Wet Nurse. b Lubenham. Leicestershire.
Within the household of John Chester Army Major Half pay.
On Page 34.
MIKE. ……
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Oh Mike that's brilliant again - I couldn't find her in 1861 as FindMyPast has her transcribed as Ann Dole - occupation "Webster"! That is obviously why her mother-in-law was looking after her 4 month old. I guess that was a useful way of supplementing the family income after weaning her own.
I continued with Robert b.1801 last night, son of Robert and Dorothy. Haven't found a marriage for Robert and Dorothy, but their eldest son (Edward b.1798 - later to be Parish Clerk and Postmaster of Belgrave) was born in Mountsorrel, although Robert and younger siblings were all Belgrave. A good candidate to be their father is Robert b.1769, son of Charles Pole and Ann Nickerson who feature in all our trees.
Thanks again
Richard
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Hi Richard, in one of your letters you mentioned Yvonne, is that yvonne hall/Rainford as she is linked to me {5th cousin}as well vie pole, Ann Smith 1838, one of our 4x great grandparents are the same.
How do you link and with who?
I have a lot of Poles on my tree and have help Yvoone out as well when she had her poles muddled I thought is was bad enough with my name of Smith but Pole seems to be hard as well
Bye for now
Ann {in Somerset}
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Hi Ann
Yvonne and I are both descended from Charles Pole (b.1739)/ Ann Nickerson (b.1738ish). Yvonne is descended from their son Thomas (b.?1767) and I am in the line from William (b.1758). If you are connected through Ann Smith, you are probably also related to me through the Lumleys, as Martha Lumley was married to Cornelius Smith (b.1813) and my gran's grandmother was Sarah Lumley (b.1812). I'm sure Yvonne will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we met through Rootschat, when I tried to assist her with a Pole question when she was just beginning. I'm sure you saw Mike's comment about the Poles - there's millions of 'em. My gran was one of 12, of whom 11 lived to adulthood, but I have only met one descendant of her siblings - my mother rarely talked about her Pole cousins, and I never met any, or realised there were so many!
Richard
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Hi Richard, Yes that's correct Ann Smith 1836-1916 married Richard Pole 1835-1907
Ann's Mother was Martha Lumley 1819-1903 father Cornelius Smith 1813
Cornelius 1813 father was John Smith 1780- 1854 mother Anne Derry 1779-1852 their daughter was Ann Smith 1816-1879 who married Charles Kinton 1818-1899
John's Mother Mary Harris 1761-1841 father John Smith 1761-1846 {my 4th great grandparents on my fathers side}
they had 4 sons and 3 daughters
John Smith 1761 father was Henry Smith 1730 mother Elizabeth 1734-1798 they had 8 sons and 3 daughters That's as far as I can go so far with Henry but have more on children.
John Smith 1780 his brother William Miles smith 1782 {we don't really know where the miles came from} married the 2 Derry sisters john married Anne Derry and William married Sarah Derry 1784-1849
Here is my direct line
Henry SMITH (1730 - )
is your 5th great grandfather
John SMITH (1761 - 1846)
Son of Henry
William Miles SMITH (1782 - )
Son of John
Henry SMITH (1817 - 1890)
Son of William Miles
Thomas Henry SMITH (1840 - 1902)
Son of Henry
Robert Graham SMITH (1863 - 1940)
Son of Thomas Henry
Robert Stuart SMITH (1893 - 1952)
Son of Robert Graham
Ann Caroline SMITH
Your William Pole1758-1811 who married Elizabeth Harris 1760-1836 where my 4th great grand aunt & uncle
Elizabeth's Father John Smith 1724-1808 wife Mary Hall 1720-1795 are my 5th great grandparents it was her sister Mary Harris 1761 who married John Smith 1761 and so on and so on
I have got to Thomas Pole 1840 and eliza black 1841 with 11 children but only one link with son Walter pole 1882 married Gertrude Alice Waldram who had son Walter Horace 1903 and daughter Minnie Gertrude 1905-1990 {my 5th cousin 1x removed} she married Philip Arthur Kenney 1901-1948 who had 2 daughters one Daughter {my 6th cousin} married a Marshall
Hope you understand all that
Will sign off now as I don't want to bore you to much LOL
Bye for now
Ann {in Somerset}
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Hi Ann
Thomas and Eliza actually had 12 children, but the youngest died in infancy. My gran was Mary Ann Pole (b.1875), Walter's sister. She married William Wright who was born in Hinckley Workhouse, and went on to found W.Wright & Son, who were Builders in Loughborough Road in Belgrave - the company went on to build wooden bodies for lorries, vans and cars (and electric vehicles), and later caravans and eventually when my cousins took over, fibreglass boats for inland waterways. Although the business ended in the 70s, the house that my grandfather built is still there (behind a used car sales), and the workshops are still in use, though access is now from the rear. A second identical house that he built in Birstall (when he got fed up with being bothered when he wasn't working) is also still there.
Richard
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I've finally got the certificate - it turns out it was ELEANOR Pole - her mother's maiden name is given as HAMES (but as she made her mark, she will not have been in a position to correct the registrar) and father's occupation as Framework Knitter. This answers one question - John's father was Charles Pole, born Nottingham c.1811, a FWK who subsequently became a policeman. His mother was Elizabeth Eames from Birstall who was also born c.1811, and there were at least 3 sisters and 2 brothers, all younger than John.
I started with one doubt about my Pole tree, but have ended up with another. It seems clear to me, that the Charles who married Elizabeth Eames cannot be the Charles (b.1794) in Belgrave, son of Charles Pole and Elizabeth Oswin. Before going back to those from whom that part of my tree originated, it would be good to try to trace Charles b.1794. Any suggestions, anyone? Perhaps someone with access to burial records in Belgrave could look for that possibility prior to 1841.
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Hello Richard..... :)
I was wondering if you had discovered who Charles the policeman was married to.....at least you have one of your questions answered ...... ::)
Burials - BELGRAVE ST PETER
CHARLES POLE - 31st Oct 1813 - aged 74
CHARLES POLE - 27th Jan 1833 - aged 38 ......... born abt 1795.....so it looks like this is your Charles?
Regards
Sheila.
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Hi Sheila
Looks like you've cracked it. Charles d.1813 looks like the father (I had 1811) and Charles d.1833 looks like the son b.1794. On that basis, he definitely wasn't married to Elizabeth Eames, who was having children long after 1833, so confirms she was married to the policeman, which the certificate shows anyway. Now how do you tell someone the direct link in their tree to ancestors born before 1600 is wrong?
Thanks again
Richard
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Hi all......
Am new to Rootschat - was just doing some idle Googling which brought me to this thread!
I too have been contacted by somebody (via ancestry this time) with a supposed POLE line right back to the 1600s but I'm also pretty sure she's mistaken. My research had somewhat stalled on the same question of which Charles & Eliza(beth) POLE is which, but the other person on Ancestry just took a guess and 'claimed' whoever fitted her purposes without finding reasonable proof. That's not the way I work!
'My' POLEs are the ones from the St Georges area of Leicester, who I am absolutely certain are linked to the Belgrave and Thurmaston POLEs but I haven't yet been able to establish exactly how and when, though the name Charles Scarborough POLE seems to be very relevant......
My family history research has been on somewhat the back burner lately, so I don't have all the info to hand, but as I remember it most of my lot were carpenters, builders or associated trades, but also significantly involved in music....whereas the Belgrave POLEs appeared to be mainly Framework Knitters. There was also another branch of POLEs in the Wharf Street/Belgrave Gate area (comes under St Margarets church rather than ST Georges) that appear to have been shopkeepers, but I'm unsure whether these are from my branch or the Belgrave branch!
Sadly, it also appears that all 3 branches were in the habit of using the same christian names generation after generation..........eg Charles, John, Henry, Francis/Frank, Arthur.....etc etc!
My g-g-grandfather was Francis Pole born c1831, son of Charles POLE (a carpenter) and Eliza(beth); however I can't be certain WHICH Charles the carpenter and Elizabeth since there are 2.........and there are also records of 2 Francis Poles being born around that time, but only one of them seems to have lived into adulthood. My Francis married Esther Ann STEVENSON, seems to have had a daughter (who I've not been able to keep track of), and then Francis & Esther moved to Oldbury near Birmingham where they had another 9 or 10 children - most of whom came back to Leicester as they hit their mid-teens. After Francis died, all of the family moved back to Leicester, but by then had somewhat spread out from the St Georges area.
Any suggestions gratefully received.........
Martyn
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Hi Martyn
Welcome to Rootschat - you will probably find it worthwhile making another couple of posts, as you need 3 to use the PM function, which is often useful.
I am very definitely a "Belgrave" Pole, but like you, I think they are interconnected, and certainly the Scarborough name derives from the marriage of John Pole and Rebecca Scarborough in 1702.
I assume your Francis is in Stamford Street in 1841, lodging with Bingleys in Brunston Gate in 1851, before appearing in Oldbury in 1861 - each time with a different spelling of Pole. Ironically, this thread was started by a contact from a descendant of Francis' brother, Thomas, who believed their parents were Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames. To my satisfaction, I have disproved this, but at the same time disproved the connection of Charles Pole and Elizabeth Eames with my tree. Yvonne, who I also met on here, kindly gave me a copy of a paper family tree produced in the 1980s by her uncle, who researched the details at the Records Office which takes us back to before 1600. I have produced a database of Poles from the IGI and Phillimores, which all seems to hang together and confirm the details.
The Poles certainly generate a lot of questions, often taking a while to answer - my latest is "Who was Thomas Pole, Coal Merchant at 27 Checketts Road in the 1908 Kellys. In 1891 there was another coal merchant there, and by 1916 my Grandfather, William Wright, Joiner was in occupation." As he was married to my gran, whose father was Thomas Pole b.1840, there appeared to be an easy answer - but "our" Thomas appears to have died in 1903 and was always an FWK!
Just another mystery to solve!
Richard
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Hi Richard
Yes, you have the correct Francis (variously shown as Pole, Pola, Pool, and Green!) - at least I think it is. Sadly I can't be absolutely certain due to a marked lack of information about Francis's early life. I need to cross-check the Stamford Street census listing against Charles's will, which I downloaded from the National Archives - but can't currently find my printout and transcription of! Bizarrely, that will was proved at the PCC and I don't understand why, as there was no mention of property other than in Leicester? I do remember that there was a youngest child named Francis mentioned, also sons Henry and John - yet there is no sign of them in that 1841 census listing. Hence my uncertainty!
I think I probably need to have a good sort-out of the reams of printouts I seem to have ammassed - not quite start from scratch, but not far off. It doesn't help that the IGI is absolutely teeming with entries that I eventually realised where less than accurately researched......
Your mention of Yvonnes paper family tree from the 1980s reminds me of something my father mentioned. Apparently, when he was young, his Grandmother Violet Pole (nee GRADWELL) told him that her husband Arthur Thomas POLE had had his family tree/ancestry professionally researched at some point prior to his death in 1927. If only I knew what had happened to those papers! I doubt whether they still exist, sadly.
Yvonne has PM'd me but as you say, I can't reply yet. It might be interesting to compare my notes with that, though, so that I can discount some of the individuals in my rather long list of POLEs to follow up on.
Martyn
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Update and......ooooops!!!
Well....I've found the will mentioned above. It's dated 6th September 1827, and it was proved at London on 26th September 1836.
It's the will of Charles Scarborough POLE of Leicester, Carpenter. which is more or less as we'd expect.
It then says "I give and bequeath all and singular my household goods and Furniture debts And Personal Estate and Effects unto my dear wife Mary Pole"
which is one of the problems that I mentioned in my first post - Mary not Elizabeth! It also questions whether the family at Stamford Street in the 1841 census is the right one - unless the Charles Pole in 1841 is the son? It's the only Francis I've been able to find that fits MY Francis though.
Then there's something of a twist; Yvonne mentioned that the various Poles tended to stick pretty rigidly within their own trade circle, which would suggest that the executors would be likely to be from the building trade....but no - he appoints Richard Seddon (Lace Manufacturer) and John Toone (Collarmaker) as Executors and Trustees to deal with "All that My Messuage or Tenement with the Workshops Out
Buildings and appurtenances thereto belonging now in my own occupation situate and being in or near Halford Street in Leicester aforesaid and all other my real
Estate whatsoever and wheresoever "
to be held in trust for the benefit of His wife Mary until her death or remarriage and also for
"my child and children viz William, Charles, John, Jane, Henry, Ann, Eliza, Elizabeth, James and Francis or such of them as shall be living at my decease when and as they shall attain their age or respective ages of twenty one years equally to be divided between them"
So as you can see, the family COULD be the one at Stamford Street in 1841, but could quite possibly not be. Some names fit, but some don't.
Perhaps either your database Richard, or Yvonne 1980s history, may be able to shed a little light and point me in the right direction?
Martyn
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Hi Martyn
Not easy - one problem is that the Scarborough bit is sometimes transcribed, and sometimes not. I can see Henry (b. St Margarets 18.11.1808), and by deduction, John (b. 08.07.1804), Jane (b.05.09.1802) - all to Charles (Scarborough) and Mary. Charles Scarborough Pole and Eliz have Ann (b.28.01.1811) - is this Charles, the son of Charles and Mary, and named in the will, perhaps? Henry (and Susannah) then have a Charles Scarborough Pole (bp. 01.04.1840 at St Georges). Charles Scarbro Pole and Eliza then have Arthur Charles (bp. 13.07.1851 at St Georges).
Meanwhile, 3 of the Stamford Street children, Sarah, Francis and Thomas appear in the St Georges records. My other contact who claims descent from Thomas says the family went off to London soon after 1841 - as Francis appears as a lodger in 1851, perhaps that is possible. The family are in Marylebone, with Charles (still a carpenter) now married to Alice. Is this Charles, the son of Charles and Mary? All very confusing.
Incidentally, Mary Pole b.1786ish is living in St George St, St Margaret in 1841 with son, James. They are in company with a Wells family.
Can't find any more tonight - I might message my other contact to see what he knows tomorrow.
Richard
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Hi
I’m new here, but directly descended from the Belgrave Birstall Poles. Grandmother was Connie Pole whose brother was Walter. I have a photo of the 1880s Eliza Pole and would love to know more about the family tree. I live in Birstall, but grew up in Belgrave after the family lost all their money in a factory fire in the 1920s
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Hi Ajm3212
Welcome to Rootschat. If you've read all through this thread, its a wonder you're still here. I reread it before replying, and struggle to remember all the details, but it was good to remember "Mike from Leicester" who was so much help to so many of us on here, and sadly died some years ago. Walter (b.1881) in Belgrave was my Gran's younger brother, but I have no record of a Connie. My Gran's parents were Thomas Pole and Eliza Black. Its funny - I had not been on RC for years before yesterday, and then your post triggered an e-mail this morning!
Richard