RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: angelahutch on Wednesday 09 February 11 10:43 GMT (UK)
-
I am looking for any information regarding a Henry Francis born 1804 Wexford, Ireland.
He came over to England with his sons, but no wife he is classed as a widower
sons where, Charles, Thomas, Solomon, Isaac and Henry all born in Queens County, Ireland.
Any information regarding Henry snr would be much appreciated.
-
Since Henry's birth is well before the start of Full Civil records in Ireland (1864), so you would need to check what parish records might be available. To do this you would need to know the family religion and where in Co. Wexford his family lived - i.e. parish or townland.
Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Shane
-
Hi Angela
Am also researching the Francis line from Henry (though for me he is a very recent find!!).
Just found out about the Tinker connections which I think is answering a few questions for me. Am also in touch with one or two others researching this line.
Kind regards
Jutta
-
Hi,
Thomas Francis born 1780
Children:
Thomas Francis 1797 married Rosanne Scott (stayed in Ireland)
Henry Francis 1804 wife died then he came to England with sons.
Jane Francis born 1808 married Isaac Stewart came to England
Alice Francis born 1811 married Henry Smith. Came to England
-
Hi Angela
Up until last week - I had virtually nothing. Was contacted by Jeff Johnson who lead me to Denise. I am waiting for a reply from a Steven Francis (?) who also has a tree on Ancestry. Have seen a Robert on different boards but not made contact.
Denise has been great with the info she has provided, up till that point I got as far as the marriage between Charles Francis and Margaret Ann Smith, in Sunderland in 1896. They had two sons, Charles and James William. I have a sneaking suspicion there was a third called Thomas and think his name changed to Leake after Margaret's marraige to Thomas Leake (he was 13 years old on the 1911 census in Edinburgh).
Charles Francis died in 1918 as a war pensioner at the age of 24 - he married Margaret McIntyre in 1916. James William (Willy) was my grandfather and died in 1960 at the age of 65. He married yet another Margaret and they went on to have Margaret, James, Eileen, Catherine, Charles, Thomas and John. Thomas is my dad.
With such an abundance of James', Charles' and Thomas', then there is the Isaacs, Henry's and Solomon's, it is so easy to get muddled. Doesn't help when there is a 10 year difference between records!!
I look forward to hearing from you again
Jutta
-
Hi angelahutch,
You wrote, "Thomas Francis 1797 married Rosanne Scott (stayed in Ireland). That isn't all together correct. First, I'd like to clear up Miss Scott's first name. It was Rosanna not Rosanne. At least that is the way it is spelled on her tombstone. One of her granddaughters was named after her (my great grandmother). She also spelled her name as Rosanna.
Thomas Francis was born in Kilmuckridge, Wexford, Ireland. He worked as a farmer and died during the Irish Potato Famine.
After her husband Thomas died, the family seriously considered moving to the new world. Records show that two voyages were made. The first was made by two of her sons, John and George. They sailed from Wexford, Ireland on August 15, 1844. George was about 17 while John's age is still unknown. On September 17, 1844, the brothers finally arrived in Alton, Illinois.
Sometime between September 1844 and April 1845, the brothers made the trip back to Ireland to bring the rest of the family to America.
On April 6, 1845, Rosanna along with her six children; John, Charles, George, William, Elizabeth and Margaret, set sail on "the Old Messenger" for the new world. It took six weeks for their sailing ship to reach Quebec, Canada. They still had to travel by way of lakes, river and canal to reach Alton on June 20, 1845. From Alton it was a short team ride to Gillespie, Illinois. In the 1840s the family would have found the land around Gillespie like untilled prairie land.
About a year later, Rosanna (Scott) Francis died. She is buried in the Gillespie City Cemetery in Gillespie, Illinois.
According to Charles Francis, Rosanna's son, the Irish and Scottish history of his family goes something like this:
"He (Charles Francis) was born in County Wexford on the 2d of February, 1823 and come of Scotch-Irish ancestry of the Protestant faith. His family was prominently connected with the religious troubles of that country. His father, Thomas Francis and his grandfather, Charles Francis, were both natives of County Wexford. The latter lived on a farm which had been purchased by his father, a Scotch emigrant, who had fled into Ireland at the time of the religious persecution when under the reign of Queen Anne, the Protestants were so terribly treated. Thomas Francis also succeeded to the old homestead and there spent the remainder of his life, dying at middle age. He married Miss Rosanna Scott who was also born and reared in County Wexford, where her parents, George and Rosanna Scott, passed their entire lives. Their ancestry had also sought refuge in Ireland from persecution for their opposition to the Catholics. Their places were burned, their homes pilfered. After the death of Thomas Francis, his widow with her four sons and two daughters, took passage on the sailing vessel, the "Old Messenger," and after six weeks landed at Quebec, Canada, continuing their journey by lakes, canal and river to Alton and on by team until they arrived in Gillespie. About a year later the mother died. She was a high-minded, noble woman, who with a loving fidelity cared for her children."
You wrote that, "Thomas Francis born 1780"... "Children: Thomas Francis 1797 married Rosanne Scott (stayed in Ireland)." Did you see a will or some estate papers that established the relationship between that Thomas Francis who was born in 1780, or any other reliable document that established the father to son relationship? Please advise. If there are such papers, I would like to obtain a copy of them. Otherwise, I'd have to take Charles Francis' word since he would have personal knowledge of his grandfather.
-
Hi
Well now you have got me quite confused, you see Henry Francis born 1804 is from my line his son Isaac Francis was my great grandfather, and apparently they came over to England about 1851 but could of been earlier as I think they came over about 1841 to Scotland as sister Alice is married their
Henry had sisters Jane Francis and Alice Francis.
According to Henry Francis marriage to Ann Crawford in 1862 he states Thomas as his father, but then again he could of been Charles Thomas Francis and like some just used the middle name, it's just that someone made the connection and I thought it was correct.
I don't really know but I am in touch with someone researching the Thomas and Rosanna line, will alter my tree and put the record straight for Rosanna
She sent me a tree well sort of a one which her mother had done it does state Charles Francis born 2 Feb 1823 Co. Wexford, Ireland. On hers states that he married a Nancy Pauline don't know it's the way she's put it born 16 May 1820 Cleveland,Cuyahaga Ohio again don't know if this is correct
But does have Rosanna Elizabeth Francis married to a Emmett Thomas Rice then they have a child called Frances Elizabeth Rice who marries Leon Alfred Hubbard then next comes they have a daughter called Leona M. Hubbard who marries a Everett C. Fisher then I think they have a daughter called Donna Lynn
The tree she sent to me goes all over the place back over from Donna and her parents, and their parents etc. even got them back to where they are killed by Indians etc, probably crossing the praire.
I am in the middle of sending for some certificates so will send for Henry Francis born 1804 died 1864 marriage cert for 1862 to see who he states as father that will then answer both of our questions.
-
Angelahutch,
Leona M. Hubbard was my mother's first cousin. Nancy Pauline's full name was Nancy Pauline Temple. Born May 16, 1820 in Cleveland, , Ohio. She died June 24, 1887, in Gillespie, Macoupin, Illinois. She is buried in the Gillespie City Cemetery.
Rosanna Elizabeth Francis and Emmett Thomas Rice did have a child named Francis Elizabeth Rice. Rosanna Elizabeth Francis and Emmett Thomas Rice had six children in all including, in order of birth; Pauline Christiann Rice b. December 10, 1880, Stewart Parnell Rice b. November 18, 1882, Mary Ethel Rice b. July 18, 1885, May Clare Rice b. November 03, 1890, Francis Elizabeth Rice b. September 01, 1893, Charles Emmett Hugh Rice b. July 05, 1898.
Charles Francis and Nancy Pauline Temple had 3 children not one. Besides Rosanna Elizabeth Francis, they had a son named Richard D. Francis b. November 27, 1858, and one child I never found the name of.
Do you live in Great Britain?
I've never known a relative that actually lived outside U.S.
-
Hi,
Well I originally came from the North of England but now live in Spain, but my research has taken me from Ireland to all over England, America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand.
It is my father's side that is the Francis surname.
Well I have been asking various members and Henry Francis born 1804 his father was called Thomas Francis and Henry was born in Wexford, Ireland. Now according to Henry's marriage cert his father was a blacksmith, but I have heard from another that they where originally farmers who did blacksmith work on their animals as did most Irish people.
So maybe your Thomas father is Charles and Charles had a brother called Thomas but we can go on with theory's unless we can actually find a marriage for your Thomas Francis and Rosanna to see who the father was then it's all guess work or theory. Maybe Charles was the name but maybe it could be Charles Thomas.
The names Charles, Henry, Thomas, Solomon, and Isaac appear profoundly down the different branches of the tree.
All I do know is there is a connection to Scotland as Henry's sister Alice married a Henry Smith Gretna Green, and Jane Francis married a Isaac Stewart from Scotland, and they where married in Scotland.
So your theory that there was links to Scotland seem to confirm as Henry Smith husband of Alice Francis was born in Ireland and Isaac Stewart husband of Jane Francis was born in Dundee in Scotland, but Isaac Stewart's father William came from Ireland
When they came over from Ireland they would of had no money to speak of therefore they where reduced to hawking, tin making etc. Then they became known here as Irish Travelers. Henry, Jane and Alice where travelers and so where their offspring.
The Smith/Stewart/Lee/Boswell/Francis families all intermarried between each other. You may of heard of the Boswell's as famous Gypsy's therefore it came to the fact that our family of Francis married into the Gypsy/Irish Traveler community in Easington Lane, Co. Durham.
Henry Francis had a son called Henry who had a son called Henry who had a son called Isaac. Now Isaac Francis married Rose Alice Lee (fortune teller) known in the north of england as Gypsy Rose Lee.
I have a copy of them in their caravan although it is black and white.
Jane Francis who married Isaac Stewart traveled greatly around England but always had a base in Co. Durham, as did Alice and Henry.
-
Hi Rg
Can I introduce myself as another member of the UK Francis Clan!!
Like Angela I also trace back (with the help of Angela and a few others) to Henry Francis 1804. He is my g-g-g-grandfather. He had 5 sons
Charles b. 1822 (my g-g-grandfather)
Thomas b. 1828
Solomon b.1831
Isaac b. 1839
Henry b. 1841
Charles 1822, married Catherine Maguire in 1849 and they went on to have 7 children
Henry b 1849
Thomas b.1851
Charles b. 1856 (my g-grandfather)
Isaac b. 1859
John b. 1862
Isabella b. 1865
James b.1868
Charles 1856 married Margaret Anne Smith (not traveller Smiths) in 1896, sneaking suspicion this may have been his second marriage. They went on to have 3 sons
Charles b. 1893
James William b. 1895 (my grandfather)
Thomas b. 1898
Margaret went on to marry a second time to Thomas Leake in 1904 and was listed as a widow on the marriage certificate. She then moved to Edinburgh with her son Thomas whose name was changed to Leake and went on to have 4 children with Thomas Leake senior.
Charles 1893 died in Edinburgh in 1918 aged 24, he was listed as a war pensioner and cause of death was chest/lung related so I surmise it was the trench warfare that did for him.
Thomas 1898 died in 1916 in Egypt in the military campaign there.
James William 1895 married Margaret Murphy in 1919, they went on to have 7 children
Margaret 1920 -1948
James 1922-1994
Aileen 1928-2006
Catherine1930-2007
Charles 1932 - to date
Thomas 1937- 1995 (my father)
John 1938-1939
If you find any of this useful please let me know. I am finding the info you have posted facinating
Kind regards
Jutta
-
Jutta,
Thank you very much for your information. Charles Francis isn't nearly as unusual a name as I thought it was. I'm such a slow typist, I sometimes wish I could talk with people over the phone about their ancestry. Sometimes it seems like it would be much easier.
After 50 years of researching my family, what a surprise it is to know that there are at least two others that are researching what seems to be the same family. I guess the first thing I need to do is make sure we are writing about the same Francis family. You and Angelahutch have added so much to the pot.
Angelahutch is writing about Irish Travellers. I don't even know what Irish Travellers are. You mentioned a Gypsy Rose Lee. The only Gypsy Rose Lee I know was in burlesque in America. A movie was actually made about her life. Is an Irish Traveller what Europeans refer to as a traveling burlesque performer?
Let me review my Francis family notes and what you have written in your emails.
One question that's popping into my mind is, how many Francis families were living in Wexford, Ireland in the 1840's? It would certainly make a difference if their were a hundred or one. Sometimes when I look at census records here in the United States, I feel many questions are answered when there is only one family living in an area with my family's surname. That has occurred over and over again, especially when I'm searching a family that lived in the mid-1800s.
If Angelahutch reads this post, I want to thank her for letting me know where she lives. In return, I'll just say, "I live in Kentucky in the USA."
Please keep in touch.
-
Well all I can say is that when researching my other part of my family tree that I thought the same thing that maybe more than one with the same name but found out that they where all connected in such a small community, so the Francis family from Wexford most certainly would be connected.
All I do know is that my Henry Francis's father Thomas was still alive when his son got married in 1862.
Angela
-
With regards to Thomas Francis born about 1780 in Wexford Ireland was his wife roseanna Scott, as I am getting a bit confused am I right in saying that he stayed in Ireland and Henry, Jane and Alice came over here, and was roseanna their mother or someone else. Did Roseanna leave them.
Very confusing. By the way Thomas Francis is my 5th great grandfather.
-
okay Thomas Francis that married Rosanna Scott, Henry Francis, Alice Francis and Jane Francis where all siblings. I have Henry Francis second marriage cert and it states that his father was Thomas Francis.
The rest of my full family tree and it's big I have it on ancestry.
Alice Francis married Henry Smith
Jane Francis married Isaac Stewart
Thomas Francis married Rosanna Scott
Henry's first wife we think is Ellen and his second wife Ann Crawford (nee Chambers) both where widows at time of the marriage
-
Hiya angela yes I have seen your tree on ancestry. I was just getting confused when I saw the post and was finding it very difficult to follow. Hope you are well.
Fiona
-
Seen your tree through searching records and going on public member trees and going through that way my tree also on ancestry is getting really big and getting so confusing with francis marrying stewarts all the time there is so many issacs that it gets really confusing especially as every day I seem to find another ancestor.
-
yeah i'm okay how are you doing with your own tree is it getting bigger.
angela
-
Yes it is thankyou but coming to a stop again on the Stewart side.
-
If you need any help let me know I think you have my email address
-
Thankyou. :)
-
I've also been doing my husbands family tree which is big as well from Scotland and adding some stuff on my mother's side so doing different trees but they are all on one tree.
angela
-
I know the feeling been doing my partners family tree as well and his big everyday new bits keep getting added on. Also been researching from my dads side of tree and just starting to make a break through of records I have waited months for. Still also been trying to find out a bit more about Martha Stewart who was Wilson and found some more Wilsons and wondering if they were related as well. As it seems the Francis/Stewart side they have married into each other quite a lot. It makes it more difficult because of the Issacs, and Marthas in the family. Good luck with your tree.
-
Do you want access to my tree on ancestry if so let me know. are you using the same user name on ancestry.
-
Yes please thank you you. No its fionawalker81. Thank you once again.
-
okay just sent the invitation you have to accept it to get access to my tree.
Angela
-
Greeting from Index, Washington State,
This is my first post regarding the Frances / Stewart Connection. My grandfather was Frederick Stewart born Easington Lane, Co. Durham 1897. His father was William who married Elizabeth Stubbs. William was a son of Thomas ( tin master) born in Newcastle, who was the son of Isaac Stewart born Dundee Scotland (traveler) who married Jane Francis born Wexford Co. Ireland.
I believe Isaac's father was Alexander Stuart.
My grandfather came to New York US in the late 1920's . He was a Civil Engineer. One of his sisters married and moved to Vancouver BC Canada. To my knowledge his other sisters ( he was the only male- running from a pregnant girlfriend who had twins ) all stayed in England. I have been to Sunderland England several times to meet with my aunty and several cousins. I would very much like to learn of my ancestors. Jane Francis b. 1808 daughter of Thomas Francis b. 1780. Any information would be very appreciated ! Kai
-
Ref: Henry Smith who marries Alice Francis. Henry is listed as a `tinner`on census. (1841) He has a son called Isaac (with others)..and I`m a descendant of that side of the family, where Isaac Smith (my father b.1916) his father was Isaac Smith(died 1916 ww1 b.12.12.1890) and his father was Isaac Smith son of Henry, he married Sarah Herron from Spennymoor. Got loads of info on the Smith side of the family. Henry`s son Thomas Smith ended up as a pub landlord in Easington and Durham. Henry came from Little Town, Limerick. His wife came from Wexford.
-
It's great to see so many people researching this family.My gggg grandparents are Alice Francis and Henry Smith,I'm descended from their daughter Harriet Smith who married William Moore.I've been enjoying finding out snippets of information about this family.
-
It's great to see so many people researching this family.My gggg grandparents are Alice Francis and Henry Smith,I'm descended from their daughter Harriet Smith who married William Moore.I've been enjoying finding out snippets of information about this family.
I'm descended from Harriet's younger brother Isaac (born +/- 1852; Easington Lane, Durham); described variously as blacksmith/tinner, he married Sarah Ellen Herron in Shadforth, 1878). Would love to contact my distant cousins and share info!
-
It's good to hear from you Mary.I've looked at my notes and see that Isaac and Sarah had lots of children,which one are you descended from?Do you live in the north east?I live in Scotland but was born in Murton which is close to Easington Lane.
-
Yeeks, I'm still trying to work out how this site operates! Apologies if I'm posting anything in the wrong places!
Yep, Isaac Smith and Sarah nee Herron had a bunch of kids. I'm descended from Cecilia Winifred who died in 1972, when I was nearly ten years old; I have fond memories of her teaching me to knit "gypsy-style" with the left needle tucked under the left oxter. One day she gave me a plastic comb and told me Auntie Gwen was trying to poison her with Domestos, but I think we can disregard a certain amount of doitiness.
Cecilia Winifred Smith appears on the 1891 census as a young child (born circa 1883 in Shadforth) and on the 1901 census as a 17-yr-old servant to the Crofts of Durham. I remember the family row when she died in 1972, because one of her daughters produced a birth certificate showing her d.o.b. was 14 July 1882 and we all thought she was only 88! Schtumpf - well, we all tell a few fibs now and again, don't we?
There is somewhat of a gap between Cecilia Winifred's appearance as a servant in Durham in 1901 and her reappearance in 1907 in Leeds, when she married Joseph Johnson. If you accept family legend, Cecilia Winifred (my mother's mother's mother) was at this point engaged to Sam (my father's father's father). But then she dumped Sam and married Joseph instead because Joseph was a groom and coachman and had big piles of horses! Way to turn a girl's head!
I'm actually wondering if she acquired a criminal record - she wouldn't have been the first servant to do a runner! I must investigate this a bit more! I'd also be interested if anyone has information on where this name "Cecilia Winifred" suddenly comes from; it's not a family name but there was another little girl in the same village (Shadforth, Durham) called Cecilia Winifred Thubron (aka Thuborn, Thurbon, Thornber, etc) born the year before my Cecilia Winifred. Interesting, but I can't find a connection.
As to Me, Myself, I - well, I was born and raised in Yorkshire, but I'm now actually living in County Meath, Ireland. No matter how much a gypsy is settled, there's always some kind of pull to be somewhere else!
-
from " Houses of Wexford" (by kind permission of David Rowe and Eithne Scallan)
===================
Francis family of Rathjarney is mentioned and by marriage to the Hantons of Ballywitch;
Names mentioned are;
Claude
Claude Dermot Le Bert
May
Jake
Katherine
Thomas
==================
-
Yeeks, I'm still trying to work out how this site operates! Apologies if I'm posting anything in the wrong places!
Yep, Isaac Smith and Sarah nee Herron had a bunch of kids. I'm descended from Cecilia Winifred who died in 1972, when I was nearly ten years old; I have fond memories of her teaching me to knit "gypsy-style" with the left needle tucked under the left oxter. One day she gave me a plastic comb and told me Auntie Gwen was trying to poison her with Domestos, but I think we can disregard a certain amount of doitiness.
Cecilia Winifred Smith appears on the 1891 census as a young child (born circa 1883 in Shadforth) and on the 1901 census as a 17-yr-old servant to the Crofts of Durham. I remember the family row when she died in 1972, because one of her daughters produced a birth certificate showing her d.o.b. was 14 July 1882 and we all thought she was only 88! Schtumpf - well, we all tell a few fibs now and again, don't we?
There is somewhat of a gap between Cecilia Winifred's appearance as a servant in Durham in 1901 and her reappearance in 1907 in Leeds, when she married Joseph Johnson. If you accept family legend, Cecilia Winifred (my mother's mother's mother) was at this point engaged to Sam (my father's father's father). But then she dumped Sam and married Joseph instead because Joseph was a groom and coachman and had big piles of horses! Way to turn a girl's head!
I'm actually wondering if she acquired a criminal record - she wouldn't have been the first servant to do a runner! I must investigate this a bit more! I'd also be interested if anyone has information on where this name "Cecilia Winifred" suddenly comes from; it's not a family name but there was another little girl in the same village (Shadforth, Durham) called Cecilia Winifred Thubron (aka Thuborn, Thurbon, Thornber, etc) born the year before my Cecilia Winifred. Interesting, but I can't find a connection.
As to Me, Myself, I - well, I was born and raised in Yorkshire, but I'm now actually living in County Meath, Ireland. No matter how much a gypsy is settled, there's always some kind of pull to be somewhere else!
Hi. I`m a descendant of Isaac and Sarah. I also researched Cecilia Winifred. Now Isaac, was the father of my grandfather called Isaac, he died 24th Sept 1916 in Great War. My father was called Isaac Smith (died1977..he was 3 months old when his father died). In the 1911 census (Sarah had died ) leaving Isaac head of house,he was living with his sister Louise 26yrs,Alice Francis 24yrs,Harriet 18yrs,Edith 14yrs, and a neice called Edith Alice Wilkinson aged 2yrs. Living Leamside,West Rainton. West Rainton where I was brought up. It`s a mystery to us why the Smith family seems to have been forgotten from 1916 - as my father, or his mother never talked about that side of the family, so it`s great to read there is someone from that side of the family on here. Interesting with the Yorkshire connection,as Edith Smith may have married an Arthur Holt 1911 in North Brierley,Yorks. and Edith Alice(the neice mentioned above) the only one I can find was born in N.Brierley, despite the census saying Durham/Leamside. Love to talk more ....
-
It's great to see so many people researching this family.My gggg grandparents are Alice Francis and Henry Smith,I'm descended from their daughter Harriet Smith who married William Moore.I've been enjoying finding out snippets of information about this family.
Hi. I`m from this line as well..on the Isaac Smith line. Harriet on the 1861 census was 16yrs, she had 3 brothers Henry(14..a tinner) Thomas(12yrs..who later becomes the licensee of The Pot and Glass, Crossgate Moor,Durham and Three Tuns, Easington Lane) and Isaac 9yrs(my relative). O the 1851 census there are more older children William(Billy) 17yrs(1857 worked at Murton Colliery, died 1884 in the Workhouse) Mary Ann 16yrs, Lucy or Laura (13yrs) Lizzy(Elizabeth 11yrs). Henry Smith on the 1851 census states he was born in Michaels Town,Limerick, yet on the 1861 census he was born `on the sea`. The only Henry Smith I can locate in Limerick, was born 3rd April 1807, his Mother Catherine Keith (father George and Mary Keith). Henry Smith`s father was called Isaac -the assumption being the name is then passed down through the family. Isaac Smith was born in Birr, Co.Offaly 3.11.1780. His father was Andrew Smith b.1760 and Mother Hannah. I believe Hannah died young, and Andrew re-married Rebecca. 1821 census Spinners Lane Birr, Andrew is 61yrs,Rebecca 42yrs(died 1847) and there`s Bridget who is 17yrs. Interesting....
-
"Michaels Town, Limerick"
I am wondering if this is actually Mitchelstown which is in Co Cork, very close to the Co. Limerick border.
-
"Michaels Town, Limerick"
I am wondering if this is actually Mitchelstown which is in Co Cork, very close to the Co. Limerick border.
Interesting...will follow this up. The census taker has written Michaels Town, two separate words, but in those days anything could be misconstrued...
-
Tithe Applotment Books of 1823-37. Shows Thomas Francis holding 20 acres? in 1833. and there is a William Francis holding 8 acres. In Ballyadam, Wexford.
-
Found a coroners report dated 1867 -Henry committed suicide by Hanging - Elemore Wood, Easington -Alice his wife stated he had tried to commit suicide 25 yrs previously and she managed to stop him. Henry and Alice are buried in St Laurence churchyard, Pittington.
-
Found a coroners report dated 1867 -Henry committed suicide by Hanging - Elemore Wood, Easington -Alice his wife stated he had tried to commit suicide 25 yrs previously and she managed to stop him. Henry and Alice are buried in St Laurence churchyard, Pittington.
Alice in 1871 census lives with son Isaac in Littletown, Durham. Isaac is there with her when she dies aged 65yrs in Shadforth. Isaac later dies in 1894 of Diabetis , resides in Pit Row, Sherburn (same street as brother Henry who did the register report) Sarah(Isaacs) wife is left with young children -she turns up in 1901 in West Rainton.
-
I am a descendant of Alice Francis and Henry Smith.
I have dna matches to descendants of Jane Francis 1807, henry Francis 1804, alice Francis 1811 and an Ann Francis 1806.
Does anyone else get a dna match to my mother , Marjorie. Gedmatch A296867 or ancestry
I would be particularly interested to see if those who know they are descendants of Rosanna Scott and went to america match as this might prove if this is 5he same Thomas.
-
Just an update. On Henry/Alice Smith. Found this concerning their daughter.
Durham County Advertiser , Durham 21 Feb 1851
Inquest was held on the same day, before the same coroner, at Easington Lane, on view of the body of Joanna Smith aged 9 years, daughter of Henry Smith, who on the preceding afternoon got between 2 coal waggons which were standing on the coal trunk at Easington Lane, and the man in charge of them having caused one of them to move, the deceased was jammed between the sole ends and received such injuries as resulted in her death the same night.
Verdict accidentally.
Also I took a visit up to the area where Henry committed suicide by hanging. Based on the coroners report, and help from locals ( one of whom worked the farm, and said every time he went passed a certain tree, he felt uneasy!!) - the last known place where Henry was seen by a young girl at 7am before he was found hanging from a tree - was a well. This well still exists.
-
Why doesn't someone say what Religion they were ??
R.C. registers are online, free! http://registers.nli.ie/
-
I have plotted a massive number of descendants down the line from Henry Smith and Alice Francis.
-
Hi. Which line are you descendant from? Which child of Alice/Henry? Incidentally, I have Alice`s death cert. died of dementia, in the presence of Isaac Smith(son)(who was my great grandfather). Isaac died 1894 of diabetes. His wife Sarah , had a child(1896) after he died, the death cert. does not name the father. Her name was Sarah E Smith, who later married a Thomas Barnes from Sedgefield in 1907. Sarah E - died 1927, possible died in childbirth as a child was born 1927 - Elizabeth Barnes.
4 children from that marriage -John J Barnes died aged 2yrs b.1923,Wm G Barnes b.1925 married Margaret Unsworth -he died Norwich 1976. Edith M Barnes b. 1925. Married 1944 - Darby (Had one child b.1944 Barry James Darby) Elizabeth married Raymond Hackworth -no children.
-
My line mary Ann Smith 1835 married Robert johnson
Dau Johanna mar Joseph Irven Taylor
One of Joseph’s sons is my great grandfather, unsure which
So are you a descendant of Isaac Smith and Sarah Herron?
-
Hi. Yep. Isaac b.1852 was my grt grandfather. He married Sarah Ellen Herron 23rd March 1878. John Herron b.1831 was her father. Isaac (bro to Mary Ann) had a son called Isaac -who died in WW1 1916 -he never saw my father Isaac b 1916. Going back to Henry - Elemore Wood is where he hung himself. Alice died having had bronchitis for 10 days aged 65. on Boxing day 1878.
I had Mary Ann down as married in Dec 1852.
-
Ahhh.... Church of Ireland!
-
I have 344 dna matches on ancestry that interconnect with this family. Many descend from a group who left Durham and went to America in the mid 1850s. Some are still living the gypsy lifestyle.
Most connect through the Smith side and just a few through the Francis.
There are some of us in Australia and quite a few still in Britain.
-
I have Mary Ann Smith born about 1835 married 21 sep 1861 Kelloe to Robert Johnson, pitman
-
Hi.
You are correct. FreeBDM
Marriages Sep 1861 (>99%) Mary Ann Smith
Johnson Robert Easington 10a 366
Someone contacted me saying Henry Smith`s father was a William Smith, from outside of Dublin, however they have failed to come back to me about where they got this information. Shame.
-
Hi Ken
I have Henry’s father as William and that information probably came originally from me. It is speculative. Both Henry and William live near each other in Durham. I have Multipledna matches to descendants of both William and Henry. A shared dna match in America had a dna match to a Smith in London. I followed her tree back and arrived at William.
I also have dna matches that suggest that the Frances and Smith families were already connected before henry and Alice married.
Regards
Deb
-
Hi Deb.
The source told me about their link with DNA and an Aussie connection. What makes you think William IS Henry`s father? I have found no link which suggests William is anywhere near Henry. On one census Henry states he was born in Michaels Town, Limerick - this is probably Michaelstown, County Cork, which is on the border with Limerick. So I was bit dumfounded to read William was in Dublin area. Love to know the reasoning or evidence which suggests William is near Henry. Henry did have a son called William(Billy) b.1834. Not specifically traced him as found 2 William Smiths who died 1884 -Whilst in the Workhouse or 1857 -Murton Colliery (although no record of a death at the colliery at that date). I did visit the area of Henry`s suicide last year, and the well where he was last seen by a young girl at 7am is still there. Ps. Love Aussie land...Ken
-
Hi Ken
My subscription not current with ancestry so I am having a bit of trouble bringing up the information from the census.
I haveWilliam Smith in 1841 in hetton le hole and in 1851 in easington.
He had remarried late in life and had more children to a very young wife.
I have him as born Newry, Ireland but note that many of these travelling families vary their place of birth significantly on different census.
My mother has 554 dna matches to people who interconnect. They have the names Smith, Francis, Mullen, Wharton, Boswell among others in their families.
Some appear to be descendants of William Smith born 1790. He appears to have arrived in the north of England about the same time as Henry. On one census they live very near each other. Both have the same occupation.
Many of the interconnecting dna matches lead to Henry Smith and Alice Francis. Particularly a group that left Durham in the mid 1850 s and travelled across America. some of this group have only given up travelling within the last generation.
Have you a dna test I could check for a match against?
Regards
Deb
-
Hi Deb.
No DNA. Although the wifey might pay for one for my birthday!!! I can track easily back to Henry`s son Isaac b.1852. my grt,grt grandad. (He died 1894 Diabetis Mellitus with Henry his brother as informant)(and Isaac was present at Alice`s death 1878). I have the 1841 census, can`t see another Smith on the street in Hetton(Easington) and part of the 1851 census no show there either. Shall have to investigate further. Do you have the wedding certificate of Henry/Alice? Just a thought that William might show as a witness. Do you have the coroners report on Henry`s suicide (I have it)?
Shame about Henry`s daughter Joanna who got crushed by wagons (1851) just wonder if that was another reason apart from his Lyme disease that made him commit suicide. All interesting...Ken
-
1861 Durham (DUR) Hetton-le-Hole Hetton Le Hole Hetton Le Hole Easington Lane
Surname Forenames
SMITH William Head M M 70 Tinsmith IRL Newry
SMITH William Son U M 2 DUR Easington Lane
SMITH Moses Son U M 6m DUR Easington Lane
SMITH Margt Wife M F 21 DUR Porto Bello
Deb. Found William.
-
Hi Ken
I found Henry after doing the dna test. So many matches led back to Henry and so many matches to people in the gypsy camp at Scotlands lane. So many matches to people who were camped on the side of the road. Something was wrong with my well, researched family tree. Wrong grandfather for my mother as the dna showed.
I suspect Henry may have had bipolar disorder but would never be able to prove it. Family members have this.
I have quite a bit on Henry thanks to Jeff Johnston who posts on here.
Can you see my tree on ancestry? Look at the census page then go to pages either side to find William.
Regards
Deb
-
Hi Deb.
When I can afford to go on Ancestry I`ll have a look. I use Freecen (free) or FreeBDM (free), helpful, and my sister is on the case, she can afford Ancestry(lol).
If you look up:-
Sacramento Daily Union" October 20, 1868. The "Weaverville Journal" of October 17th. Further info on that Indian killing of Burke mentioned earlier on here.
All the best
Ken
-
Hi Ken
I had another look at my dna and the thrulines by ancestry.
People with trees who are descended from Henry Smith and Alice Francis who match my mother 14. There are then many more who match but do not have a tree.
People who descend from a John Smith born 1818 in England and is probably a brother to Henry matches 5. John dies in America.
If I go back a further generation from William 1790 using the dna I get possible brothers for William, Gilbert 1784 who turns up in England, John 1786-1863, Our William 1790-1870 and another I named Smith and added to my tree As I have no name but descendants.
-
Hi Deb.
You have put my theory into why H and A came across to England into disarray, I thought it was the potato famine, they came looking for work. Smith what a name to research!!! I`m from the Isaac line of Henry, in fact Isaac has been a name handed down all through even to my grandson. Isaac was present at Alice`s death, and she lived with him in her final years, she must have been a hardy lass.
Just waiting for my birthday present..then I might be on your list!!
K
-
Ken I have matches that cannot be accounted for if the Smith line was not travelling in England before Ireland.
-
Hi Deb.
Just a quicky, probably you have this info anyway. My sister sent the actual photo of marriage details from Gretna Green of Alice Francis and Henry Smith. Looks like 3rd of October 1832. No witnesses, and both just make their mark x. Both listed as from Houghton Le Spring. Hope all`s well down under, if you get chance have a listen to my mate Gary on 4ttt radio Townsville, he does a blues show and a Saturday evening show.
Ken
-
Thanks Ken
Yes I have that one. Thankyou
Deb
-
Elizabeth, Daughter of Rowena Francis(Scott) buried in Gillespie. Elizabeth was the wife of Burke who was shot by Indians on his farm. Looks like she led a long life.
Burke, Elizabeth F.
01 Dec 1831
14 Feb 1911
-
Hi. Which line are you descendant from? Which child of Alice/Henry? Incidentally, I have Alice`s death cert. died of dementia, in the presence of Isaac Smith(son)(who was my great grandfather). Isaac died 1894 of diabetes. His wife Sarah , had a child(1896) after he died, the death cert. does not name the father. Her name was Sarah E Smith, who later married a Thomas Barnes from Sedgefield in 1907. Sarah E - died 1927, possible died in childbirth as a child was born 1927 - Elizabeth Barnes.
4 children from that marriage -John J Barnes died aged 2yrs b.1923,Wm G Barnes b.1925 married Margaret Unsworth -he died Norwich 1976. Edith M Barnes b. 1925. Married 1944 - Darby (Had one child b.1944 Barry James Darby) Elizabeth married Raymond Hackworth -no children.
Correction to Sarah E Smith marriage to Barnes(incorrect) I now have the death certificate for Sarah E Smith, she died of Addisons disease in Sunderland at her daughters home Jane Wilkinson(Smith). So ignore the Barnes connection
-
I am a descendant of Mary Smith daughter of Henry Smith and Alice Francis.
-
Deb. Have a look on freebdm. May help you ref.the Johnson link. Ken
-
I rediscovered this thread a few days ago and wondered if anyone has found out any more information about the Francis,Smiths and other families talked about here.I have dozens of matches on Ancestry DNA .Looking forward to restarting the discussion again.