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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: lullaby on Wednesday 09 February 11 16:59 GMT (UK)
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I have a longstanding problem researching this line of my family as my ggg grandfather, Mark John Dyer, was (according to the 1851 census) born in Tortola, BVI, West Indies c 1800. At that time there were no established churches on the island. I've done some searching through the colonial records at the National Archives and have found a couple of clues but nothing to positively link them to my ancestor.
In the second half of the 18th century, a Mark Dyer was resident on the island for a while and he also had links to Alphington, Devon. He died in London in 1832 and seems to have had only one child, Henry Moreton Dyer, who also died in London in 1841. This earlier Mark Dyer was apparently a senior civil servant whereas my family were carpenters (coachmakers) which bothers me. However, it is possible that his son, Henry, fell out with his father - he isn't mentioned in his will.
I wonder whether there is anyone out there who might know anything of these Devonshire Dyers?
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The Morning Chronicle, Saturday March 13, 1802
MARRIED
Thursday, at Kensington Church, Mark Dyer, Esq, late of the island of Tortola, to Mrs Hamer, widow of the late Joseph Hamer, Esq, of Demarary
Jackson's Oxford Journal, Saturday April 4, 1812
DIED
In Manchester Street, Mrs Mary Dyer, wife of Mark Dyer, Esq, of Alphington, Devonshire
Question - did Mark Dyer, Tortola, marry a Mrs MARY Hamer?
Trewman's Exeter Flying Post or Plymouth and Cornish Advertiser, Thursday March 17, 1814
Alphington near Exeter
To be sold at auction, ..... the premises Ivy Cottage, situate jn the Parish of Alphington, .... (the residence of Mark Dyer, Esq, who is about leaving the country).... Advertisement Mar 9th, 1814
Then found mention of a Mark Dyer, Dawlish several times until Mark Dyer, Esq, Alphington reappears contributing 3 guineas to the Ireland Distress Fund
regards
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Trewman's Exeter Flying Post or Plymouth & Cornish Advertiser, Thursday October 25, 1832
DIED
Oct 15th, in the 83rd year of his age, Mark Dyer, Esq late of Alphington, and formerly of the island of Tortola
regards
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Is this the Henry Moreton Dyer you refer to "died 1841", possible son of Mark Dyer?
Bristol Mercury, Saturday May 29th, 1841
DIED - In London, age 66, Henry Moreton Dyer, Esq
The Derby Mercury, Wednesday May 26th, 1841
Death of a Mr Henry Moreton Dyer- Police Magistrate
This much esteemed gentleman, who for many years has been the chief magistrate at Marlborough Street Police Office, breathed his last about 5 o'clock on Monday Morning, at his residence Devonshire House, Wimpole Street.
regards
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Many thanks for these gems of information. Yes, the other Mark Dyer did marry Mary Hamer (his second wife, I believe) and presumably Henry was a son by his previous marriage. I wonder whether Mark was returning to the West Indies when he sold his cottage - but on the other hand the expression 'leaving the country' can also mean moving residence to a city.
Kind regards
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good morning i' m french you can translate this message with google because my english is not very good
je fais des recherches généalogiques sur ma famille une branche m' a amené à henri charles moreton dyer né en 1805 et mort en 1841 son père est mark dyer et sa mère anne moreton je recherche des informations sur ce mark dyer si quelqu' un peut m' aider moi je peux vous dire que h.c moreton a eu une fille emma qui s' est mariée en france avec aimé duniagou et je suis une de ses descendantes si vous voulez me demander un renseignement ça serait avec plaisir merci
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excusez moi de l' erreur henri charles moreton dyer était le fils de henri moreton willis dyer mort en 1841 qui était le fils de mark je débute
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I have some knowledge of this family and will contact you again next week as I shall be on vacation for the next few days.
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thank you
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Bonjour!
I have some information about this Dyer family covering three generations.
Mark Dyer (1749 to 1832). Married Anne Moreton in 1774. One son - Henry Moreton Dyer born in 1776. Lived for some time in the West Indies where Mark Dyer was on the council for the Virgin Islands (Tortola).
Henry Moreton Dyer (1776 to 1841). Lived for a time at Nassau where he was a Judge of the Vice Admiralty Court of the Bahamas Islands. Living in London in 1822 at Devonshire House, Wimpole Street and he retired about 1837 as a pensioner of the Legal Service.
I do not know the name of his wife but his son, Henry Charles Moreton Dyer was born in 1803. In 1827 he was appointed to the Commission of Peace for Middlesex and Westminster (London) as a police magistrate. He married Catherine Elizabeth Knatchbull (fourth daughter of the Dowager Lady Knatchbull) in 1828. They had four children - Henrietta Elizabeth, Gertrude Forbes, Emma Fleetwood (your ancestor?) and Reginald Malmesbury.
HCMD and his wife were recorded numerous times in the newspapers as being present at the Court of Queen Victoria so they were obviously mixing with high society and I suspect living above their income. Following a major scandal in 1841 the family fled to France in 1842 and bankruptcy hearings were started.
Gertrude married Adolph Belloc and lived in the USA. Reginald married Emma Riley of Brighton, Sussex, England.
You possibly know all of this but if not I can give you more details.
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bonjour merci pour vos informations je n' avais pas tout et ce n' est pas toujours facile pour moi de comprendre tous les documents en anglais, en effet emma fleetwood est mon arriere arriere grand mère maternelle c' est ma mère qui a commencé son arbre généalogique et je l' aide
j'ai trouvé l' ascendance des moreton et des knatchbull mais pas les parents de mark dier si vous les connaissez merci de penser à moi et quel est le lien qui vous lie à mark dier ? sommes nous cousin très éloigné ?
la femme d' henri moreton dier est rebecca phipps mais je n' en sais pas plus sur elle pour l' instant
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To save anyone from the perils of online translators, if I can just lend a hand?
Hello, thank you for that information, I didn't have all of it and it is not always easy for me to understand all the documents in English.
Emma Fleetwood is in fact my maternal great-great-grandmother.
My mother has started her family tree, and I'm helping her.
I have found the ancestors of the Moretons and the Knatchbulls, but not the parents of Mark Dyer, if you know them.
Thank you for thinking of me, and what is your own connection with Mark Dyer? Are we very distant cousins?
Henry Moreton Dyer's wife was Rebecca Phipps but I don't know anything more about her at this point.
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thank you for your help i 'm not sure you can undestand me if i write in english but i try a little bit and without translater .
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Thanks Janey - your help is greatly appreciated. My French is very basic!
In reply to Phicar - I have tried to find out more about the early background of Mark Dyer but without success. My interest in him was due to my great great great grandfather, Mark John Dyer, having been born on Tortola, Virgin Islands in about 1800 and I have been unable to trace his parents. At the time I believe your Mark Dyer was also still living on the island. There was a very small European community resident in those days and it seemed to be too great a coincidence to ignore. However, following the death in London of Mark Dyer, his son Henry Moreton Dyer claimed to be his only child.
We do have a family legend relating to the parentage of my ancestor, Mark John Dyer. If you know of anything within your family I should really be interested to know.
Regards Lesley
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Very welcome - I'll get notice of replies so I don't mind coming back and translating for you, phicar, if you prefer to write in French. (C’est plûtot la manque de majuscules et de ponctuation, et d'espaces, qui cause des difficultés, juste comme en anglais, mais surtout pour les lecteurs et lectrices non natifs/ves! Les jeunes et leur texting ...)
I love a good ancestral mystery, complete with family legends - I'm descended from a Viscount, if you believe them! Oh, and I have an 18th century link to Alphington. ;) So in case it helps for others reading (and just so I can follow the story more easily myself), I'll give you phicar's earlier message as well -- phicar, if I have failed to follow the thread correctly, just let me know. (Et aussi si tu as besoin d'une traduction vers le français.)
I am researching the history of my family, and a branch has led me to Henry Charles Moreton Dyer, born 1805 and died 1841.
His father was Mark Dyer and his mother was Anne Moreton.
corrected in next message:
Henry Charles Moreton Dyer was the son of Henry Moreton Willis Dyer who died in 1841, who was the son of Mark. (I'm a beginner.)
I'm looking for information about this Mark Dyer, if anyone can help me.
What I can tell you is that HC Moreton had a daughter Emma who married in France, to Aimé Duniagou, and I am one of her descendants.
If there is anything you would like to ask me I would be pleased to help.
Thanks!
So phicar has the link to the first Mark Dyer, and lullaby is looking for hers, if such there be ...
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bonjour,thanks for your answer
si j' ai bien compris et je ne suis pas certaine , votre ancètre est une autre personne appelée Mark John dyer qui vivait
au meme endroit .Dans mes recherches j' ai un mark john dyer marié à mary ann webb entre 1754 et 1921 avec comme enfant william francis , john frederik et suzanna charlotte . Je ne sais pas si cela correspond , c' était sur le site ancestry mais je ne suis pas abonnée alors je n' ai pas accès aux actes en totalité .
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for lullaby ;)
phicar says:
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If I understand correctly, and I'm not sure, your ancestor is another person called Mark John Dyer who lived in the same place.
In my research, I have a Mark John Dyer married to Mary Ann Webb between 1754 and 1921, with children William Francis, John Frederik and Suzanna Charlotte.
I don't know whether that fits. It was on the Ancestry site, but I don't subscribe so I don't have access to the full records.
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This may be what you're looking at:
Mark John Dyer married Mary Ann Webb, 17 Nov 1828, Shoreditch, London
Ah, I see, that is from London, England, Marriages and Banns, *1754-1921*.
Je crois que oui, phicar -- son Mark Dyer ést né ~1800 en Tortola.
lullaby, that is your Mark marying Webb?
In the 1851 census:
Mark John Dyer, coach manufacturer, born c1800 Tortola West Indies, wife Mary Ann, living in Clerkenwell, Middlesex, with children
Susannah 21
Henry 17
William 14
Sarah 4
and married son-in-law William D Hill, 22, retired coach maker -- born in Trinidad West Indies (so Susannah, who is shown as married, was really Susannah Hill)
They seem quite prosperous, lullaby - perhaps not mere carpenters in that generation!
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Bonjour -
Yes, that Mark John Dyer from Ancestry is my ancestor - I am descended from his son William Francis. I have not been able to confirm a direct link between this Dyer family and your Mark Dyer apart from the Tortola connection.
I have a copy of a codicil to your Mark Dyer's will and he mentions his niece Mary Dyer. He therefore must have had a brother but his name is not given. It seems that this brother and his wife died leaving their daughter Mary an orphan who was looked after by her uncle Mark Dyer.
Lesley
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Janey - yes, but their fortunes seem to have changed about mid century. My Mark was initially working for John Felton in Islington whom I think is related to William Felton who had a book entitled 'A treatise on carriages: comprehending coaches, chariots, phaetons' published in 1794 (according to Google!). John Felton's son, Henry, was a witness at Mark John's wedding in 1827. Daughter Susannah and her daughters appear to have been abandoned by her husband from Trinidad - I suspect he returned there. Sadly she ended up in an asylum.
I do not know when Mark John Dyer left the West Indies for London but I have wondered whether - if there is a family link to the other Mark Dyer - that association helped him gain an apprenticeship with the Feltons.
My great great grandfather William Francis became a piano maker and seems to have been reasonably successful in business.
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So the time line of births goes approximately
Mark Dyer 1750 (died 1832)
Henry Moreton Dyer 1775 (died 1841)
Mark John Dyer 1800
So Mark John Dyer 1800 could (theoretically) be
- a son of Mark Dyer 1750
- a son of Henry Moreton Dyer 1775
- a son of a different son of Mark Dyer 1750
- a son or grandson of a brother of Mark Dyer 1750
(or none of the above, of course!)
Henry Moreton Dyer claimed to be the only son of Mark Dyer 1750 when Mark Dyer 1750 died in 1832 -- he could have been the only surviving son (and Mark John Dyer 1750 could have been the son of a deceased son of Mark Dyer 1750)?
It seems Mark Dyer 1750 had a brother who had daughter Mary Dyer.
Mary's father could have been younger than Mark Dyer 1750, and also had son Mark John Dyer 1800. Mark Dyer 1750 would have made provision for her in his will because he had taken her in as a daughter -- whereas by 1832, Mark John Dyer 1800 was married and independent. Possibilities ...
If he made a bequest to Mary Dyer without appointing trustees or such, she must have been an adult? As a daughter of his brother, she would most likely have been middle-aged.
Where in London did Mark Dyer die in 1832? Presumably he left any real estate to son Henry, but perhaps Mary was in the same vicinity and we could look for her in 1841/51 or for her death that way.
That looks like a big question -- who was the brother of Mark Dyer 1750??
Do you suppose the long line of Dyers in Barbados is connected? (My sister will be in Barbados in December for a week; if she had a clue about any of this, I'd make her do lookups!) At FamilySearch, search for any Dyer event in West Indies 1600-1850, say. It seems to start with Roger, Thomas and Francis having children baptised 1648-1670, and some marriages around the same time.
Oops, crossed in the post. I've been trying for a few years to help someone find a coach painter and/or artist ancestor who was apparently in Canada in the early 1800s -- we cannot figure out who the modern-day person's grandfather born c1860 was, even, but he has in his possession some unsigned early 19th century watercolours of military sites in Ontario, copies of which are now in the possession of historical authorities here in Canada I put him in touch with, who are thrilled with them. Maybe they're all related. ;)
I myself appear to be descended from Hills of Devon/Cornwall (in fact, the Alphington connection) and am in the middle of having DNA testing done to try to prove or disprove that theory (the paper trail I discovered is solid, but the tall paternity tales remain). Maybe your dastardly William Hill (I swear, the name second only to James Hill for common-as-dirt in Devon, and I have a William son of James ...) was one of mine!
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Hi Janey -
Seeing the situation in black and white rather than in my mind seems to make the problem even more unsurmountable! I confess I have rather reached the stage of declaring a permanent brickwall. However, you have no idea how grateful I am to have someone look at the facts with a fresh eye.
Mark Dyer (the other) died in Kensington, London. However he seems to have had very little left to bequeath. He expresses his regret that he is unable from want of pecuniary means to enjoy the gratification of bequeathing a legacy to his beloved niece, Mary, but she is to be furnished with a mourning ring in token of rememberance. Obviously Henry Moreton Dyer's wealth was self-made and by virtue of his wife's family. I have searched for Mary Dyer in the past but it is unfortunately such a common name!
There is in addition another snake in the grass in Tortola at much the same time and that is Mark Dyer French who died there in 1838. His mother could of course have been the other Mark Dyer's relative. However that just complicates the situation even further.
In my research I have perhaps placed too much emphasis on the continuation of forenames down the family line which seems to have been so prevalent at the time. The IGI has a record of a Mark Dyer who was baptised in 1804 on St Vincent. He was the son of Samuel Dyer and Celia Albert. It is entirely possible - as there was no church on the Virgin Islands at the time - that it (the baptism) was delayed and I understand there was a fair amount of movement between the islands due to both political and economical reasons. This pair had several other children baptised between 1811 and 1824. There is however no recognition of either a Samuel or a Celia within Mark John Dyer's own family.
Also, the slave registers on Ancestry for Tortola record a John Dyer owning slaves between 1818 and 1834. He seems to have had at least three children - Henry Dyer, Mary and Sarah. These forenames are reflected in Mark John's family (his first son was named Henry Mark).
Many thanks, but I don't know of any connection with Barbados. There was a William Dyer on Trinidad at the time of the slave registers and I have wondered whether he is connected and it was through this connection that the 'dastardly' William Hill joined Mark John in London!
Unfortunately female children seem to have dominated the line and I have so far been unable to find a straight male link for DNA purposes. My father's mother was a Dyer.
I am grateful for your suggestions. There are some more newspapers now on line which I must search through
Regards Lesley
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bonjour
j' ai trouvé des informations sur "digital library of caribbean caribbeana volume 6 pages 78 et 79 " sur mon mark dyer mais votre hypothèse sur le frère d' henri willis moreton est intéressante surtout que mark dyer a eu une première femme appelé mary morte en 1811 avant la mère d' henri moreton . Mais pour l' instant je n' ai rien de mieux .
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and for lullaby:
Hello
I have found some information at "digital library of caribbean caribbeana volume 6 pages 78 et 79" about my Mark Dyer but your hypothesis about the brother of Henry Willis Moreton is interesting, particularly since Mark Dyer had a first wife named Mary Morte in 1811 before Henry Moreton's mother. But that is all I have at the moment.
(JC adds: that's a little confusing, since Mark Dyer was born 1750 and died 1832, and son Henry Moreton Willis Dyer was born in 1775 and died in 1841 -- Mark Dyer's first marriage would not have been in 1811 -- ?)
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Bonjour
According to my research, your Mark Dyer married Anne Moreton at St George's Church, Hanover Square, London about 25 August 1774 - she was the mother presumably of Henry Moreton Dyer. She seems to have died, possibly in the West Indies, and he then married Mary Hamer (this wasn't her maiden/birth surname - she was a widow) in 1802 at St Mary Abbotts, Kensington, London. This marriage failed and they separated. I have a copy of her will - she died in 1812. This must be Mary Morte. Her first husband was Joseph Hamer.
I doubt that she is the mother of my Mark John Dyer as she makes no mention of him in her will and I think your Mark Dyer had left Tortola by then. There is a newspaper article which mentions that Mark Dyer arrived at Falmouth in December 1801 on the vessel Lord Charles Spencer from Tortola.
I didn't know that Caribbeana had been digitalised. Is there mention of any other Dyers on Tortola in it?
Lesley
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bonjour je n' avais pas les dates alors je pensais que marie hamer était la première femme
sur caribbeana il ya un arbre généalogique
Margaret... = John Dyer of st Anthony's ,Montserrat = Marie...
with Margaret Matthiew Dyer 1724 (baptims)
Michael Dyer 1725
Joseph Dyer 1728
Mark Dyer ? ensign in Lucas' Regt died 1742 in La Guayra
with Marie Henri Dyer born 1742-1788 a daughter elisabeth
Margaret Dyer 1745
Mark Dyer 1749-1832 = ann arabelle morton(moreton ) 1774 his son Henri Morton Willis Dyer 1775-1841 =Rebecca Phipps died 1830
=Mary =Joseph Hamer of Demerara
i have just find it ... for the moment
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Caribbeana - interesting:
http://www.dloc.com/UF00075409/00003
There's a search function -- 13 results for Dyer, including the index showing references to Ann Arabella, Henry, Henry Moreton, John and Mark and the pages they appear on.
There's a codicil to a will, dated 1795, witnessed by Geo. Dyer of Tortola (p. 362). He might be an interesting person - in the right place and time to be the father of Mark John Dyer 1800, or at least the generation of his father perhaps.
The only other result for dyer + tortola is in a section that seems to deal with arms on bookplates.
Montserrat
576. "Henry Dyer" Wreath and ribbon arm
Arms, -- Or, a chief indented Sable
Crest, -- Out of a coronet a goat's head
Chief Judge of M., matriculated from St Mary Hall, Oxf, 1759, aged 17, as son of John Dyer of M., Esq., and died 1788. His father, who was also Chief Judge, died 1781. Mark Dyer (of Tortola) is the same plate with name altered.
So these would be Henry Dyer 1742 and Mark Dyer 1749, as in the family tree that phicar reproduced above.
And it looks like the family was in Montserrat and it was Mark 1749 who relocated to Tortola.
Unfortunately, the bookplate listings skip from Tobago to Trinidad, with nothing for Tortola specifically.
A search at FamilySearch for Dyer born in Montserrat turns up a number of people born in the late 1800s, in the US censuses. Thanks to the obsession with race, they are all identified as Black.
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This is really fascinating and I need some time to absorb it all - thank you both.
If I understand correctly, John Dyer from Monserrat had two wives, the second (Marie) being the mother of phicar's Mark Dyer.
Now, to further complicate the situation, I wonder whether Mark's older sister Margaret was the mother of Mark Dyer French (having married a Mr French, of course) who is also very prominent on Tortola in the late 18th/early 19th century. Amongst his daughters were a Maria and a Margaret. He died on the island in 1838.
I must go back through all my notes as I initially researched this about two years ago.
On file at the National Archives in Kew is an early census taken on Tortola in 1717, I think without checking, which records a John Dyer with a wife and child from England. Montserrat and the Virgin Islands as we now know them were under the same administration so it is quite possible that this John moved across to Monteserrat. Unfortunately the census does not record the names of his wife and child.
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Switching subjects just for a minute:
page 119
Montserrat
1812 Mary Dyer 273 Oxford
Now to figure out what that listing is ...
List of Wills proved in the PCC from 1800 to 1812 inclusive.
So no, not the niece of Mark Dyer 1749 as I was wondering. Ah, Mary Hamer Dyer his wife died in 1812 so that is the will you referred to earlier.
page 105
(Parish Registers of St Kitts, starts on p. 100)
Dyer, Henry, Chief Judge of Montst, died 13 Jany. 1788
The one referred to earlier, brother of Mark Dyer 1749.
The John Dyer with the wife and child in 1717 is quite possibly the one who baptised children with wife Margaret in Montserrat starting in 1724, although that does leave a bit of a gap (hmm, which might be explained if that was just when he relocated to Montserrat, and doesn't include children born on Tortola, hypothetically).
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Hi Janey - I really appreciate your continued interest in this subject. I have not yet had a chance to look at Caribbeana in detail but will try this evening or tomorrow. I also need to write down the timelines to see how everything fits in.
My initial reaction is that the niece Mary was perhaps the daughter of Henry Dyer who died in 1788 as the dates fit. I suppose it is possible that the publication omitted her baptism.
I also agree about the 1717 - 1724 gap.
Kind regards
Lesley
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Yes, I think I was missing the obvious -- Mary was the daughter of Henry who died in 1788.
Remember that the publication just covers a few years. (I assume there was more than one Caribbeana published?)
I just love a mystery, and especially one with Devon connections, as that seems to be the epicentre of my own mystery, so any chance to poke around there and I never know what I might come up with. ;)
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bonjour,
After many researchs and wrong way, i just find a list of migrant to Montserrat from England in 1678 with Anthony,John and Hugh Dyer .I suppose they was brother( i am not sure) but it was not write where in England they came from.This is in keeping with the family tree of caribbeana but not hugh dyer . I have been watching this but not found informations .
I read a lot of papers was destroyed during the war with french and after by the volcan.
I think further informations can be find in books . With google book i find some interesting books but only in England 's libraries nothing in france .
I will still looking for new informations .
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Bonjour phicar
Thank you for the message. Your English is good. Yes, Anthony Dyer and John Dyer may have been brothers. Perhaps Hugh Dyer did not stay in the Caribbean but moved on to America.
I think my ancestor, Mark John Dyer, may have been a grandson of Henry Dyer who died in 1788, age 46. According to the will of your ancestor, Mark Dyer (1749 to 1832), Henry had a daughter called Mary so it is possible he also had a son.
If you come across Mark Dyer French in your research who was also on Tortola in the early 1800s, I think he may be a son of Margaret, the sister of Mark and Henry. She may have married a brother of Elizabeth French, the second wife of Henry Dyer.
Anthony and John Dyer seem to have been in the army. It might be possible to find which regiment they were in. Our National Archives in south London could still have some records.
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Hello , I may be of help, I am a descendant of Joseph HAMER of Demerara, I have read a few of your posts am not sure if you can help me. I am new to this rootschat thing and dont know how to post my interests. Anyway I have been trying to establish Mary Hamer's Maiden/birth name . You did mention a possible Birth name ie MORTE for our Mary Hamer / Dyer. I have a copy of Joseph Hamer's Will. I also know that Joseph had connections to Montserrat. He lived in Gosport Hampshire at one time. I have Joseph & Mary's children's names.
Can you get back to me and clarify this mystery.
Thanks so much
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hello rpegmat and welcome to Rootschat.
I have a copy of the will of Mary Dyer/Hamer - signed in 1811 and proved in 1812. I know she married Mark Dyer in March 1802 but they had separated by the time she wrote her will. Presumably they lived in Alphington, Devon during the period of their marriage. At the time of her death she was in London.
She mentions the names of her children - which I understand you already know - but I notice that her first son is called William Attwick Hamer and her third son is Richard Greathead Hamer. I therefore think it is quite possible that her maiden name might have been Attwick (first choice as this was their first son) or alternatively Greathead.
She mentions her late mother in the will but sadly does not record her name.
Unfortunately I am unable to help you apart from this suggestion.
Lesley
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Bonjour
According to my research, your Mark Dyer married Anne Moreton at St George's Church, Hanover Square, London about 25 August 1774 - she was the mother presumably of Henry Moreton Dyer. She seems to have died, possibly in the West Indies, and he then married Mary Hamer (this wasn't her maiden/birth surname - she was a widow) in 1802 at St Mary Abbotts, Kensington, London. This marriage failed and they separated. I have a copy of her will - she died in 1812. This must be Mary Morte. Her first husband was Joseph Hamer.
I doubt that she is the mother of my Mark John Dyer as she makes no mention of him in her will and I think your Mark Dyer had left Tortola by then. There is a newspaper article which mentions that Mark Dyer arrived at Falmouth in December 1801 on the vessel Lord Charles Spencer from Tortola.
I didn't know that Caribbeana had been digitalised. Is there mention of any other Dyers on Tortola in it?
Lesley
according to the above earlier post. My Mary Hamer is nee Morte? . I have searched for Attwick & Greatheed as an alternative maiden name but have not found anything in years of searching. I have documentation that says Mark Dyer was from Tortola and married Mary Hamer . So why do you think her name was not Morte? Are you the original enquirer about Mary Dyer?
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Hi, rpegmat
I've edited because I may have got the wrong end of things -- in any event, it's phicar who mentioned "Morte" so that's where the question needs to go. I had read it as a typo for Moreton, but that seems to have been me being confused.
If you read back through, I think I and the others have compiled all the mentions of Dyers in that volume of Caribbeana, and also information about Dyers of Tortola known to lullaby to exist.
The easy way to read a longish thread like this is to click the "Print" button in the upper right -- that will open a new tab where you can read the stripped-down messages all in order on one page. If you do a "find" for Tortola on the page then, for instance, you'll see all references to it in the thread.
Hope that helps!
(And keep in mind that it's just as likely that Attwick and/or Greathead was a surname from one of Mr Hamer's female ancestors.)
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Here we are, the initial reference -- my translation of phicar's post:
I have found some information at "digital library of caribbean caribbeana volume 6 pages 78 et 79" about my Mark Dyer but your hypothesis about the brother of Henry Willis Moreton is interesting, particularly since Mark Dyer had a first wife named Mary Morte in 1811 before Henry Moreton's mother. But that is all I have at the moment.
(JC adds: that's a little confusing, since Mark Dyer was born 1750 and died 1832, and son Henry Moreton Willis Dyer was born in 1775 and died in 1841 -- Mark Dyer's first marriage would not have been in 1811 -- ?)
Mary, née ?, first married name Hamer, second married name Dyer, died in 1811.
Aaargh --
... mark dyer a eu une première femme appelé mary morte en 1811 ...
-- it was phicar's lack of capitalization and punctuation that let me astray.
It doesn't say "first wife Mary Morte in 1811".
It says "first wife Mary, deceased in 1811".
My apologies!!! I had read a string of names consisting of given name + surname and taken "femme appelé mary morte" to mean she was "Mary Morte", when it meant "Mary, deceased".
Thus endeth this quagmire. No Mary Morte, just a reminder of the importance of proper translations ... and of punctuation.
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Hi rpegmat -
My line of research is with the male branch of the Dyers in the West Indies so Mary Dyer only popped up in relation to that. The second son I think is called Henry Percy Hamer. Have you tried Percy as a maiden surname for Mary Hamer?
Janey, I should also have realised that Morte should read deceased! My French stretches that far.
Merry Christmas
Lesley
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Hello, i am very sorry for my ponctuation ,you have right "morte " is "died"in french .But i have write in my note Mary Budgen but i am not remember where i find it.Try this name .
merry chrismas to everyone :)
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CHRISTMAS SORRY ,keying error !!!
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And I truly hang my head in shame. More than anything, I think it was all the "Moretons" that threw me off the straight and narrow there.
Budgen seems to be very much a Kent and Sussex name in the early-mid 1700s (searching at familysearch).
There is one instance at FS of given name Budgen surname Hamer: Harriett Budgen Hamer married in Tonbridge in 1836. Her husband's name was a little exotic: Andre Racine Brand. Yes; they had children in France .. and how interesting -- one of them was named Henry Percy Brand:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQN5-GB3
(with her name given as Harriet Budgen, but it's impossible to tell whether that means Budgen was her birth surname or a second given name).
The births in France are recorded in the England and Wales Non-Conformist Record Indexes. At FS, just search for given name Andre Racine and surname Bra* and it will find them all (there are a couple of instances with his surname transcribed as Braud and Bradna).
The surname Hamer seems to be concentrated in Lancashire. Lots of Harriet Budgens were born in Kent; Hamer could have been a first married name in her case ... but the Henry Percy is more than a little interesting.
Was Harriet a daughter of Joseph Hamer and Mary? I actually think it is more likely that a daughter would carry her mother's birth surname while sons had surnames from the father's lines. But Harriett had children as late as 1846. She might be a child of Henry Percy Hamer?
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Hello
i find where i saw Budgen
http://mathewfamilytree.com/custom.html
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And there we have what I "discovered" ;)
Henry Percy Hamer c1787 d before 1836 Captain of Demerara
Children
Henry Percy Hamer
Harriet Budgen eldest daughter.
Harriet Budgen Hamer married 1836 Andre Racine Braud of Paris (French Protestant Pastour) residing Fontainebleau
What the site doesn't give is a source for Budgen as Mary's name.
If that was the source of the name, Henry Percy Hamer, son of Joseph and Mary, gave his daughter Harriett his mother's surname as her middle name.
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hi rpegmat -
Lousy weather this pm so done some idle googling. I guess you will have looked into this but here goes anyway.
There is a website dedicated to Henry Cort covering something of certain Attwick & Burges families. John Attwick lived during the 18th century in Gosport (which is relevant to you) and by his second wife, Mary Beverley, he had a daughter called Mary. Her life isn't followed through on the site but this, of course, doesn't necessarily mean she didn't survive childhood and marry. Perhaps she disappeared. Perhaps she wasn't of especial interest to the family historian.
There appears to be a link to the site administrator if you haven't already covered this ground.
I suspect you might live in Australia - if so it's a shame you aren't able to pass on some of your sunshine.
Merry Christmas
Lesley
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Bonjour everyone
I am on holidays in Montserrat and spent the afternoon in a boat with the 3x great grandson (if my calculations are correct) of Henry Dyer (1742-1788). He showed me a family tree from Henry up to the present. Dyer is not on his direct male line so Y-DNA testing would not be applicable but autosomal DNA testing might indicate a match (4th cousin or thereabouts ... 50% chance of detection). He may also know of a direct male line Dyer that might agree to testing. Either test could help confirm a connection between your branch and his and would support the current hypothesis suggested by the documentary research.
If this is of any interest to anyone please email me directly as I return to London on Wednesday and would need to contact him beforehand!!
Hope this finds you all well.
Regards
Maurice
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This is a relatively new link ... http://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/person/view/1234
And this is one you have probably seen already ... http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search.aspx?query=Dyer&rf=pubid:881
Cheers
Maurice
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this prob wont, be helpful at all but, sourced from st andrews church in plymouth, a henry dyer married my x10 great aunt joan hodge in 1561. if that means anything to u let me no
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Hello and thanks for your interest.
Regretfully I have so far been unable to take my Dyer family back beyond 1800 and the birth in the West Indies. It is quite possible that they originated in Devon.
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my user name has changed from rpegmat to Rhonda Mathew,,, any new finds regarding Hamer ,Budgen,Dyer connections? All I know is Mark Dyer married Mary Hamer after her 1st husband died ie: Joseph Hamer.
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".... any new finds...."
The death of Anne Louisa Moreton, aged 91, Nassau, New Providence was reported in several newspapers in April 1811.
It describes her as the "... widow of the late Hon. Major Charles Moreton (youngest son of Matthew, first Lord Ducie) and maternal grandmother Henry Moreton Dyer, Esq, Judge of the Vice Admiralty Court of the Bahama Islands"
www.thepeerage.com/p25551.htm#i255507
Tab down to Charles Moreton
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Hi Rhonda -
I recall your main interest was the Hamer line which I haven't really researched as she was only briefly with Mark Dyer (they had a legal separation I think) and there were no children. There is plenty of information in Caribbeana relating to the Dyers in the Leeward Islands which I have extracted but will probably never know whether or not they are the same family as mine. Unfortunately my only known direct male line back to my ggg grandfather (who was born in the West Indies) died in Australia in 2006. There are still Dyers (of mixed race) on Montserrat and I am saving my pennies!! I really need to visit the BVI, Montserrat and Nevis in case there is something tucked away in what remains of their archives.
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I came across the following in the Journals of John Marsh (1752-1828): He wrote in 1820: "Finding Mr Dyer was settled here [i.e. Dawlish, Devon] who formerly married Mrs Hamer, Edward & I called on him the next morning..." Would this be the Mark Dyer (1750-1832)? Do you have any further information on him? He obviously had settled in Dawlish by 1820.
iangj
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Yes, iangj, it would seem to be the same Mark Dyer. I have found a lot of information about him over the years whilst searching for the roots of my ggg grandfather.
Regards
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Thank you - do you know what he did, and what took him the West Indies?
I only have a peripheral interest, having come across the name I wondered how John Marsh knew him.
Ian
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He was born in the West Indies, 2nd or 3rd generation. It now seems more probable that the family's origins were Irish (not Devon).
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This may be totally unconnected, but did any of you DYER experts notice my request for information on Elizabeth DYER who married William BENNETT on 30 Sep 1747 in Stoke Damerel?
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Can you give a link to that request please, garlands?
(it wasn't in this thread)
Edit:
In your posts list at your profile, I see these two up top:
20 Oct 2017: William BENNETT & Elizabeth DYER c1725
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=780969.msg6353430#msg6353430
26 Sept 2017 (thread started): Exeter St Sidwell - Thomas RANDELL or BENNETT
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=779576.msg6352119#msg6352119
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Hi Janey,
It was the 20th October posting:-
William BENNETT & Elizabeth DYER c1725
George
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If anyone come across documents listing slaves in Henry Moreton Dyer plantations across the Caribbean (especially Montserrat) I would very much appreciate the links as I'm completely stuck on my husband's side of the tree...
As far as I know Henry Moreton Dyer's family had Irish roots but lived in Islington, London.
Margot
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Thanks to Janey's suggestion, I've now pushed back my DYER link to Richard DYER of South Hill, Cornwall, viz.:-
14 Oct 1716 Richard DYER of South Hill m Elizabeth EVANS of Pillaton in St Mellion
05 Apr 1718 Elizabeth dr of Richard DYER bap in South Hill
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Caribbeana
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00075409/0001
I checked for Dyer and it returned 11 hits. I haven't cross checked these hits for information already presented for this post.
Note - on one page I found the entry identified by the search key but checking the whole page I spotted a 2nd entry which hadn't been identified and indexed by the search
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Many references to Dyers of Montserrat (& few other West Indian islands) referenced and accessible / searchable here https://www.academia.edu/35429303/A_History_Research_Note_about_Montserrat_West_Indies
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Many references to Dyers of Montserrat (& few other West Indian islands) referenced and accessible / searchable here https://www.academia.edu/35429303/A_History_Research_Note_about_Montserrat_West_Indies
Thank you very much. I'm still trying to figure out my husband's first ancestors from Montserrat. Our oldest link is Arthur William/Gerard Dyer (born about 1880) who married Elizabeth Bramble. His ancestors must have been slaves on John Dyer's plantation in Montserrat.
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With reference to HowlerHow's message, I have been through the spreadsheet and identified several Dyer wills which I would love to view. However, I have so far been unable to contact the National Trust in Montserrat. I sent another request yesterday via a different route and may in desperation resort to a good old-fashioned letter!
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Lullaby,
Haven't checked what's been unearthed since my earliest posts but maybe this of some use.
FindMyPast has an entry (transcript only) of a Mark Dyer marrying an Ann Arabella Moreton, 1774, St George, Hanover Square. The Bath & Weekly Gazette, 1 Sep 1774, has the marriage of Mark Dyer, Esq, of the Temple to Miss Moreton of South Molton Street.
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Margot, I'll have a look at some 19th century Montserrat church records.
Lullaby, contact me through the Academia link, I'll take a look.
No promises, and we're in the middle of moving house so won't be soon.
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Thank you!!
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hanes teulu - I am truly grateful to you for all the leads you have passed on to me over the years.
Thank you.
HowlerHow - will do, thanks.
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You're welcome.
Spotted elsewhere that Ann Arabella Moreton was from St Kitts. Do you have that bit of info?
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Thanks for the further info - a couple of years ago (during the boredom of lockdown) I did quite a bit of research via Ancestry and findmypast on this side of the Montserrat Dyers' family and this information was included. I still haven't ascertained whether or not my BVI Dyers are linked to this family but have obviously kept all my notes. DNA hasn't helped so far as it is so distant and we seem to be a family of females!
Lesley