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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: HarrysGirl2 on Sunday 13 February 11 21:39 GMT (UK)
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Hi my grandfather was in the Liverpool Kings Regiment during WW1. No photo has survived of my grandfather but I have found his service card. This tells me he was in France, with details below. Can anyone help with this. It would be a long shot. But I'm wondering if anyone has any photos of this regiment ?
I don't know what my grandfather looked like as he died in 1924 from a heart condition, which was accelerated after being gassed in the trenches. But I might be able to see a resemblance in him to one of his 5 young children he left behind.
William H. Welsby
Date of entry 1-5-1915.
Liverpool R Pte. 10912
Lab Corps. Pte. 410298
Next to Victory- Under Roll it says: LC/101 B148. Page 15010 (Edited)
Next to British - 'do' Page 'do'
Under Medals it says: Star. 15. LC/ 8c Page W/100/3
Theatre of War: (1) France
Under Remarks: Class Z. 9-4-19.
Thank you
HG2
Moderator comment: Image removed. Only small portions of the image may be posted for help with handwriting.
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Hi
Have you tried local papers? Many showed photo's of men killed in action - often in batches.
There are some Liverpool ones on the Gale 19C Newspapers site available free with library card sign in on your own computer in manmy areas.
Best wishes
Emms :)
PS I'll try and have a look when I come in.
Also, have ypou tried regimental magazines? Good luck!
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The King's Liverpool Regiment had nearly 50 battalions in WW1 but fortunately not all of them served in France & Flanders.
His date of arrival overseas may be a clue, if he was part of a unit, but he may have been part of a draft of reinforcements.
The nearest arrival date I can find for a unit is the 1/8th (Irish) Battalion of the King's who arrived in Boulogne on 3 May 1915. They were Territorials, but not all were Irish!
Someone with knowledge of numbering may be able to offer more.
The medal index card you quote shows the date of his entry into the war zone: 1st May, then his number in the King's Regiment, and later in the Labour Corps. This transfer often meant that a soldier had become unfit for front-line duties in the infantry from wounds or sickness. His rank was Private in both.
He was entitled to the usual three campaign medals - Victory [not Victoria], 1915 Star and British War Medal. If you have them the name, rank and number should be stamped in the rim. The other mumbo-jumbo is a reference to the Medal Rolls which are held at the National Archives at Kew. Sometime they will show more details, including a battalion number, but not always. They are not available online.
Class Z was the part of the Army Reserve to which he was allocated when demobilised.
Official photos of individual soldiers are very rare, and private ones are usually found among family papers, taken when about to leave for the front. Sometimes they appeared in local papers, especially in the earlier part of the war.
The 19th century newspapers online mostly go only to 1900, so not much help here.
A
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The King's Liverpool Regiment had nearly 50 battalions in WW1 but fortunately not all of them served in France & Flanders.
His date of arrival overseas may be a clue, if he was part of a unit, but he may have been part of a draft of reinforcements.
The nearest arrival date I can find for a unit is the 1/8th (Irish) Battalion of the King's who arrived in Boulogne on 3 May 1915. They were Territorials, but not all were Irish!
Someone with knowledge of numbering may be able to offer more.
The medal index card you quote shows the date of his entry into the war zone: 1st May, then his number in the King's Regiment, and later in the Labour Corps. This transfer often meant that a soldier had become unfit for front-line duties in the infantry from wounds or sickness. His rank was Private in both.
He was entitled to the usual three campaign medals - Victory [not Victoria], 1915 Star and British War Medal. If you have them the name, rank and number should be stamped in the rim. The other mumbo-jumbo is a reference to the Medal Rolls which are held at the National Archives at Kew. Sometime they will show more details, including a battalion number, but not always. They are not available online.
Class Z was the part of the Army Reserve to which he was allocated when demobilised.
Official photos of individual soldiers are very rare, and private ones are usually found among family papers, taken when about to leave for the front. Sometimes they appeared in local papers, especially in the earlier part of the war.
The 19th century newspapers online mostly go only to 1900, so not much help here.
A
Thank you, I really appreciate this information. Would it be worth getting his medals for more information ?
I would love to find a photo of him... only his handwriting has survived. I also have his handwriting on a card, which was from the wreath or his 4 year-old daughter who died in a few years before the 1st WW began. So I don't want to leave a stone unturned.
HG2
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Oh dear, I made a mess of this thread as I duplicated it & now half my messages & replies have gone. Sorry folks, it's my fault not the mods. I'll put the postcard back, so people know what this thread is about & I apologise if other members replies have been lost.
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/Bimboalbum/sc0060269d-1.jpg)
(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/Bimboalbum/sc005fea66-1.jpg)
To recap, in brief, what I'm after is a long shot, but no photograph of my grandfather has survived, only his handwriting on this Christmas card from France in 1915. So, I'm hoping somebody just might have a photo of the 4th Battalion King's Regiment. Or I might find an old newspaper photo. He was not killed in action, he was gassed in the trenches & died in January 1924 age 44. Cause of death was: "Myocardial degeneration accelerated from being gassed in the late war"
Really appreciate the help & advice on this thread, thank you
HG2
PS. I have no idea what my grandfather looked like, but I'm hoping to identify him, by a resemblance to one of his children who grew up in the old court slums of Comus St, in Liverpool
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Hi
Have you tried local papers? Many showed photo's of men killed in action - often in batches.
There are some Liverpool ones on the Gale 19C Newspapers site available free with library card sign in on your own computer in manmy areas.
Best wishes
Emms :)
PS I'll try and have a look when I come in.
Also, have ypou tried regimental magazines? Good luck!
There is plenty of info for soldiers killed in action, but nothing on the soldiers who were just wounded or not wounded. I'l look at this Gale website - thanks for this Emms
HG2
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Ah, now we have the battalion, we can say that they went to France in 1915, arriving at Le Havre on 6 March, so your g/father must have followed after the main battalion's crossing. They were part of Sirhind Brigade in the Lahore Division, [mostly Indian Army] based at Robecq until 10 Nov 1915 when they joined 137 brigade in 46th Division. In December 1915 thhey were part of 2nd Division, and in Feb 1916 33rd Division. At the Armistice they were at Sassegnies in France, but at some stage his progress will have been interrupted by the transfer to the Labour Corps.
This site will give you some idea of the structure of the army: division, brigade and battalion:
http://www.1914-1918.net/
The Christmas card is a great example and you must treasure it.
A
A
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Ah, now we have the battalion, we can say that they went to France in 1915, arriving at Le Havre on 6 March, so your g/father must have followed after the main battalion's crossing. They were part of Sirhind Brigade in the Lahore Division, [mostly Indian Army] based at Robecq until 10 Nov 1915 when they joined 137 brigade in 46th Division. In December 1915 thhey were part of 2nd Division, and in Feb 1916 33rd Division. At the Armistice they were at Sassegnies in France, but at some stage his progress will have been interrupted by the transfer to the Labour Corps.
This site will give you some idea of the structure of the army: division, brigade and battalion:
http://www.1914-1918.net/
The Christmas card is a great example and you must treasure it.
A
A
Oh... thank you so much for this. Yes, the Christmas card is treasured.
PS. He could have been transferred to the labour corps after he was gassed, maybe he was still fit to serve, but the effects of the gas caused undetected problems that later effected his heart & killed him.
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Sorry can't help with any photos but my grt grandfather (John Gilleeney) also served in the Kings Liverpool Regiment (4th Extra Reserve) and has a similar number to your grandfather (11882). He was also injured and transferred to the Labour Corps and again has a similar number (413665). He served in the Labour Corps until given an Honourable Discharge on the 6th March 1919.
I would imagine that your grandfather would have served in the Boer War prior to WW1 and that was why he was in the Extra Reserve regiment.
Regards, Phil
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The most likely is that there is a photo of him in the local newspaper. If you can get to Liverpool Record Office on a Tuesday afternoon there is a help desk run by members of the Liverpool & S W Lancashire FHS (Liverpool group). One of the ladies there is very very knowledgeable about who appears in the papers at the time.
On Sat 24 March 2012 the Kings are having a day at the new Liverpool Museum of Life. They may have information. The lady mentioned above will, I believe, be there.
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Are you located in Liverpool ? If so check out Bill Tagg in Cheapside . He has a friend who specialises in the Kings Regt WW1.
Also have you checked this http://www.ww1photos.com/OnlineSearch.html
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Have you tried googling the Kings L/pool Reg there are many sites with lots of info .Photo is of my Grandfather W E Boulter who went right through WW1 ,he stayed after the war ended in 1918 I think soldiers were payed £50 to help clear out any German soldiers that continued to fight ,he was wounded in 1919 and recieved an honourable discharge I have his medals but lost his certificate many years ago .He never talked about the war he brought me up as my parents had separated and my mother died when I was 10 yrs old .He died 1972 age 86
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Are you located in Liverpool ? If so check out Bill Tagg in Cheapside . He has a friend who specialises in the Kings Regt WW1.
Also have you checked this http://www.ww1photos.com/OnlineSearch.html
Yes, Wise 1... I am in Liverpool. Bill Tagg in Cheapside... how can I contact him ?
When you say Cheapside, do you mean the police station ? Is he in the police ?
HG2
PS... FOUND HIM - Cheers Oh Wise One ;)
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Have you tried googling the Kings L/pool Reg there are many sites with lots of info .Photo is of my Grandfather W E Boulter who went right through WW1 ,he stayed after the war ended in 1918 I think soldiers were payed £50 to help clear out any German soldiers that continued to fight ,he was wounded in 1919 and recieved an honourable discharge I have his medals but lost his certificate many years ago .He never talked about the war he brought me up as my parents had separated and my mother died when I was 10 yrs old .He died 1972 age 86
Yes, I think I've read everything available online about the Kings Reg, but my grandfather was not killed in action, so there's not much info on soldiers that were not liked in action. My grandfather died from the effects of gas, according to his DC, but he didn't die until Jan 1924.
Your story is heartwarming to read Clwyd. It's nice to have a photo, sadly, no photos have survived of my grandfather & nobody left alive who remembers him, so I'm trying to find as much as possible about him as he died 30 years before I was born.
HG2
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When this one resurfaced I checked my records and 10912 W H Welsby almost certainly enlisted in the Special Reserve - 3rd and 4th Battalions of the Liverpool - on the 3rd of September 1914. The records of 10916 Patrick Ambrose are on Ancestry, and that is the date of his enlistment
Ambrose left for France in March 1915 - two months before William - as he had 12 years previous experience as a Regular. They served together in the 4th Battalion, with Ambrose being awarded the DCM.
Ken
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When this one resurfaced I checked my records and 10912 W H Welsby almost certainly enlisted in the Special Reserve - 3rd and 4th Battalions of the Liverpool - on the 3rd of September 1914. The records of 10916 Patrick Ambrose are on Ancestry, and that is the date of his enlistment
Ambrose left for France in March 1915 - two months before William - as he had 12 years previous experience as a Regular. They served together in the 4th Battalion, with Ambrose being awarded the DCM.
Ken
Ken, you're an angel. Is there anyway I can use this information to get more details of my grandfather ?
I know this sounds impossible, but I'd love to find a photo of his battalion & hopefully I can recognise him from his description & maybe he looks like one of my family, who are now all dead apart from a couple of cousins. I've never seen him as no photos have survived of him & the one or two cousins still alive have never seen him either. So we have only his handwriting on his Christmas card & the brief description on his papers.
Does this sound impossible ? Any advice for photos of his battalion ?
HG2
PS. I suppose I could put a new thread on here asking for any photos of the 3rd and 4th battalions ?
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I am just curious
A E Welsby was my optician in Garston,Liverpool for years ..and a very good one ..is he related ?
allan
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I am just curious
A E Welsby was my optician in Garston,Liverpool for years ..and a very good one ..is he related ?
allan
Hi Garsonite how are you ? It's me Wallaby from FTF aka HarrysGirl2.
I was lucky enough to team up with another researcher who had gone back to the year 1573 with my maternal Welsby family. I don't know if there is any link to the optician in Garston that you've mentioned, though. I'm not familiar with that opticians, but I do remember an opticians in Renshaw Street, with the name Walsby not Welsby. Sorry
HG2
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Ha ha ...Wallaby ...you`re right ..it ws A E Walsby ...I am cracking up ...lol and they did have another shop in Renshaw St ...
allan
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Ha ha ...Wallaby ...you`re right ..it ws A E Walsby ...I am cracking up ...lol and they did have another shop in Renshaw St ...
allan
hahahahha... may I suggest that next time you pass that opticians you go in! LOL!
Nice to hear form you Garstonite ;-)
HG2
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Ah, now we have the battalion, we can say that they went to France in 1915, arriving at Le Havre on 6 March, so your g/father must have followed after the main battalion's crossing. They were part of Sirhind Brigade in the Lahore Division, [mostly Indian Army] based at Robecq until 10 Nov 1915 when they joined 137 brigade in 46th Division. In December 1915 thhey were part of 2nd Division, and in Feb 1916 33rd Division. At the Armistice they were at Sassegnies in France, but at some stage his progress will have been interrupted by the transfer to the Labour Corps.
This site will give you some idea of the structure of the army: division, brigade and battalion:
http://www.1914-1918.net/
The Christmas card is a great example and you must treasure it.
A
A
To update you...
From further research I have now discovered 2 more children that neither I, nor my few cousins, knew about. So my grandparents had 8 children in all, with only 4 of the 8 surviving.
This new information has revealed the possible reason why my grandfather, William Henry Welsby, followed after the main battalion crossing. According to his service card, he didn't arrive in France until the 1st May 1915. His battalion had arrived at Le Havre on 6 March 1915. The reason might be this... I have found a birth of a son on the 29th April 1915. Just 2 days before he arrived in France. Would my grandfather have been given permission to follow his battalion after the birth of his son ?
Isn't it fantastic how you can piece a persons life together nearly 90 years after they've died!
HG2
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HG2
The weekly return of men adding or being struck off the strength of the battalion showed Pte 10912 William Welsby as being taken to hospital on 17th April 1916 whilst serving with 4 KLR. He is also shown as being admitted to the Field Ambulance on the same date.
I can't immediately locate details of him coming back on strength.
The Battalion were in trenches at Auchy on that date.
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A few years ago there was an old book about the KLR in the Maritime Archives in the Maritime Museum at Albert Dock also a book of the daily diaries of the commanding officers of the KLR in France. I guess these books are now in the museum at the Pierhead where they have a permanent KLR exhibition which deserves looking at.
I found info about the 2nd/5th battalions in 1917 which was when my uncle William Baylis PAUL was wounded and died.
If you can find similar records for your battalion then I would think a gas attack would be mentioned.
I have a photo taken of about 20 soldiers doing bayonet drill in 1915 which includes my uncle. They are at a seaside place which I have not yet been able to identify although the photo was put on this site some years ago. The original is now held by the above museum but not on show.
Humphpaul
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There's a set of books available...The History of the King's Regiment (Liverpool) 1914-19. by Everard Wyrall...3 volumes,I have a set which I think I got from www.naval-military-press.com .They detail where the various battallions served.
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HG2
The weekly return of men adding or being struck off the strength of the battalion showed Pte 10912 William Welsby as being taken to hospital on 17th April 1916 whilst serving with 4 KLR. He is also shown as being admitted to the Field Ambulance on the same date.
I can't immediately locate details of him coming back on strength.
The Battalion were in trenches at Auchy on that date.
YES, that's him!!!! Where did you find this information ?
His number was first 10912, then changed to 410798. Would there be any further record or medical report of him anywhere ?
Thank you so much for finding this Stephen
HG2
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A few years ago there was an old book about the KLR in the Maritime Archives in the Maritime Museum at Albert Dock also a book of the daily diaries of the commanding officers of the KLR in France. I guess these books are now in the museum at the Pierhead where they have a permanent KLR exhibition which deserves looking at.
I found info about the 2nd/5th battalions in 1917 which was when my uncle William Baylis PAUL was wounded and died.
If you can find similar records for your battalion then I would think a gas attack would be mentioned.
I have a photo taken of about 20 soldiers doing bayonet drill in 1915 which includes my uncle. They are at a seaside place which I have not yet been able to identify although the photo was put on this site some years ago. The original is now held by the above museum but not on show.
Humphpaul
I will, thanks for this advice.
HG2
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Sorry can't help with any photos but my grt grandfather (John Gilleeney) also served in the Kings Liverpool Regiment (4th Extra Reserve) and has a similar number to your grandfather (11882). He was also injured and transferred to the Labour Corps and again has a similar number (413665). He served in the Labour Corps until given an Honourable Discharge on the 6th March 1919.
I would imagine that your grandfather would have served in the Boer War prior to WW1 and that was why he was in the Extra Reserve regiment.
Regards, Phil
I have also found Militia Attestation records for my grandfather. His number then was, 3648. 4th Battalion. LKR. He enlisted on 8th July 1896. He was then 18years 4 months old. It gives his description as being 5 ft 5inches, 114 lbs. sandy hair, complexion fair, brown eyes.
EDIT: There is a note in red on these Attestation papers, which reads... "Lpool Reg 25/9/1896."
I got some advice from a member of the Great War Forum about this attestation record, which is... quote:
"William H never served in the Militia - I think he "Attested" (8/7/1896), but changed his mind and then enlisted as a "Regular" into the Kings Regt on the 25th September 1896, which I conclude from the red handwriting - these Militia Documents would then have become unused.
If he has joined as a regular into the Kings he would have automatically been renumbered, again a four figure number. His terms of service in 1896 would have been "7 & 5" - seven years with the Colours and five years with the Reserve. If this is correct then he would have been Discharged to Reserve and civilian life in 1903, at the end of the Boer War. If this is the case then his complete Discharge would have been 1908, with no further obligations.
At the outbreak of the War he was probably impelled to re-enlist, this would account for him being re-numbered with a five figure regular number, his old regular number now dufuct.
What you need to look at is the "Muster Rolls" for the Regular Kings battalions as my instincts and these documents are telling me he was a pre-war regular." Unquote.
Could he have served in the Boer War ?
Would there be any records of LKR soldiers of the Boer War ?
HG2
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Me too! I couldn't pass up the chance to mention my grandmother's first husband was Arthur Scragg 28022 of the King's Liverpool Regiment killed in France 1916. His direct grandson has his medals and the "penny". I have his picture. All other info is from the web.
Paul
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YES, that's him!!!! Where did you find this information ?
I can't answer that, but if you send me an email address, I'll send you the report with his name included
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If anyone sees this message, I have registered on RootsChat with the sole purpose of contacting Clwyd2 who posted about WE Boulter further down this page. Unfortunately I cannot PM him without making three posts first, but I have some very interesting information for him regarding his grandfather.
If anyone sees this post and can contact him, please tell him to reply to me.
Thanks
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My Granddad and Uncle were both in the 4th Btn Liverpool Kings Regt in WW1 they were both listed on the Liverpool Kings Regt Devereux Touchscreen Database in The Kings Regt Display area of the Museum of Liverpool Life at the Pier Head Liverpool.
You can access in remotely to see if a relative is listed on it.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/visit/galleries/soldiers/research/kingsreg/index.aspx
There are 10 Welsby's 5 with Initial W but only one WH 10912 presume yours.
But have to attend personally to key in your relative to see if more info held on the database. In My case the Administrator of the Database had details of all the Census records my Granddad had appeared on. His Occupation, Wife Children. MM Gazette award and Newspaper date that his Obituary appeared in during 1943 I was able to send them a Photo to add onto the database.
They had similar info on my Uncle but no photo.
You never know another relative may have supplied one of yours ?
There may also be Regt Photos on this site where people add personal stories if their Relatives :_
http://www.merseyside-at-war.org/?s=4th+btn
The 4th Btn was stationed at Seaforth Barracks Litherland, Bootle and there are several photos of this suite :- http://www.litherland-digital.co.uk/
There are also several Genies that have old Group Kings Regts soldier photos on request posted on this site :- http://www.bootlehistory.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=10
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If anyone sees this message, I have registered on RootsChat with the sole purpose of contacting Clwyd2 who posted about WE Boulter further down this page. Unfortunately I cannot PM him without making three posts first, but I have some very interesting information for him regarding his grandfather.
If anyone sees this post and can contact him, please tell him to reply to me.
Thanks
Hi JohnstonD I just read your post and wondered what info you have I hope it is the right
person as there is a W E Boulter mentioned in despatches but not sure if it is my Grandad.
Cheers clwyd2
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Thanks for responding Clwyd2.
I have an honourable discharge certificate for 1919 that might or might not be your grandfather's.
I think we need to PM.
This is my 3rd post so I will PM you
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Welcome to RootsChat.
We do have the option to scan and add documents to post ;) If you need any help with this please see the link below.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi,
You could try 9th Kings Liverpool on facebook. Even if he wasnt in the 9th, they may be able to give you some pointers with regard to photos.
Suzie