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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Buckinghamshire => Topic started by: Violet May on Tuesday 15 February 11 12:05 GMT (UK)
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For a long time I have been researching the BROWN family from CHENIES. Father was Daniel, Mother Ann?. They had six children including DANIEL 1825 and Rosetta 1826. I have found out about DANIEL jnr and his family also father DANIEL who was a retired victualler then he lived in the Alms Houses as a widower from 1841. After 1861 I cannot find him. He MUST have died but I cannot find his record. I have purchased several death certificates in his name but not hit the button yet? WHERE could he have gone? I know he was a brother to Elizabeth who married a BEESON. Rosetta was my husband's gg grandmother who disappeared when living in London after giving birth to a son(our Ggrandfather} illegitimately in 1847. If anyone has ANY connection to these people it would make my day. Thanks
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Hi There is a tree on ancestry which has this family , it shows Rosetta as arriving st john new brunswick 1847 aged 22 , this might explain her disappearance. it also shows daniel & ann gates had 7 children. matilda b 1813 marianne b 1815 caroline 1817 eliza 1817 mary ann 1817 daniel 1823 -1912 rosetta 1825 birth sourse from census may explain 3 births same year.
hope this is some help.
regards alan
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Hi ...
The Rosetta who lands at St John Is too old to be yours...
looking at the original manifest it has......
Rosetta Brown female aged 50 wife
travelling with
Eliza J Brown female 20 spinster
John Brown male 25 labourer
Mary Brown female 23 wife.
Tazzie
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Thanks Alan I belong Ancestry but have been unable to find Rosetta on a Tree, however I will look again. Also I sort of knew about the one landing in New Brunswick but cannot get further information. However I feel she may have gone to Canada. See you soon :)
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Hi Alimag. Had another look for the tree with Rosetta Brown. I own two trees on Ancestry One Hancock/Brown and Hockney. This may be where you saw it.
I do not have any proof that she was the one who went to Canada! Regards
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Hello,
I spent much time in Bucks Record Office in the 1990s searching for Brown and Austin records from the PRs. I probably have some of the info you need, including record of Daniel Brown senior's death in 1864. If you are still interested, you can contact me direct on aeddickinson.t21@btinternet.com
I can then just list all the christening dates etc. I can do a straight e-mail, but am not into "clever stuff" with diagrams etc. Thursday at the earliest.
I am a direct descendant of Thomas Pope Dickinson of "London" and Matilda Brown from Chenies who married at Holborn St Sepulchre in February 1830.
With kind regards,
George Dickinson,
Doncaster.
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Hi George
A warm welcome to RootsChat, unfortunately Violet May has not been back to Roots since 2011 but as you have done a lot of research on the Brown's in Chenies I wonder if you have gathered any info on my 3rd Grt Grandfather Henry Brown. Although Henry was born in Kings Langley in 1791 he moved with his wife Sophia nee Marriott to Chenies sometime between 1816 & 1817. Sophia died in 1818 along with her new born son Henry, have you by any chance picked up any records for a John Brown born to Henry & Sophia in Chenies c1817. Henry then married Mary Crutch in 1820 but I don't know if they had any children. Mary died in 1844 in Chenies after which Henry leaves Bucks to live with his daughter in Surrey.
No problem if you don't have any info as it's probably a long shot but I thought I would ask any way. :)
Don't worry if you find your e-mail vanishes from your post as it's RootsChat policy to not show mail addys in case of spamming. ;)
Regards
Maddie
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Good evening Maddie,
Since yours is a simple question, I can make a simple answer. As is normal (essential) in family history research, I first worked backwards and then sideways. This went from Matilda Brown (Christened 1813, dd 1895), then back to her father, Daniel Brown (Christened 1784 - dd 1864) who married Ann Gates in London in 1812. Daniel's father was William Brown, who married Sarah Austin in Chenies in 1778. I have children in Chenies from both these marriages. I also followed a number of "blind alleys" with Brown families while searching and figuring out which were "my" line. These included a couple of bits that look relevant to you.
First, from the 1992 IGI I have a note that Henry Browne married Sophia Marriott in Rickmansworth, 14/8/1811.
Then in Chenies Parish Register christenings, page 9, entry 70, I have 1818, Aug 2, Henry son of Henry & Sophia Brown of Chenies, paper maker. Nothing else noted for Henry right up to 1854.
Henry Brown and Mary Crutch both of Chenies married by Banns on 25 May 1820 (Phillimore has 21/5/1820). Both made a mark. Witnesses: Abraham Brown, Lucy Brown, William Beeson (Clerk).
I guess you already have this information, so I'm sorry that my records are of no help to you.
Just one possible place to look is Flaunden, Herts, because there seem to have been links to Chenies from time to time.
Kind regards,
George Dickinson.
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Hi George
Many thanks for your reply & I am very grateful for the extra info that I didn't have. :) For instance I didn't have the exact date of baby Henry's christening which must have been just before his death along with his mother. Yes, I do have the date of Henry & Sophia's marriage in Rickmansworth & also what I thought was the correct date for Henry & Mary's marriage being the 21st of May so again thank you for the actual date of 25th. I also didn't have the witnesses to Henry & Mary's marriage, Abraham & Lucy Brown, they are very welcome as Abraham is not a name I have come across before but it might help me to find were Henry's father Richard Brown was born as up to now he is alluding me. :) As he was also a paper maker there is a chance that he originates from Bucks & could well be connected to your Brown's but as it's such a common name, who knows. ::)
I think perhaps John Brown may well have been born in Rickmansworth just before the family moved as his 2 elder sisters were born there & for some reason there are no christening records for the first 3 children.
Once again thank you it is much appreciated.
Regards
Maddie
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Thank you Maddie,
Glad to have been of a little help. Just another thought. From my records, I am sure that when I went right through the Chenies Register from 1812 onwards (ie new pre-printed book of 8 entries per page, new national standard), looking for the children of Daniel Brown and Ann, I noted every other christening for Brown (because I have a list of others besides yours). This indicates to me that your people had no children christened in Chenies before Henry.
I also have a list of Brown burials in the Chenies register, 1813 to 1912. The following look to be of possible interest to you -
Page 5, entry 38, 1817 July 27, Sophia of Chenies, age 24.
Page 5, entry 39, 1817 August 19, Henry of Rickmansworth, age 2 months (parents not stated).
However, I think this Henry may be a "decoy", because your Henry was not christened until 2 Aug 1818. The register entry for that event must be correct at 1818 (ie not my copying error) because
Page 7 (last) entry 56 was 20/4/1817
Page 9 entry 70 (for Henry) was 2/8/1818
Page 10 entry 74 was 25/11/1818
Page 10 entry 77 was 14/3/1819
I have no christenings recorded on page 8 (entries 57 to 64).
An August 1817 christening would have been on page 8,
or, at the latest, early on page 9 (starting at entry 65).
Thus the Rickmansworth Henry cannot be yours, because he had died before the christening date.
I have not trawled the internet for the Chenies Registers, and I could have missed an important item. In the 1990s they were on film or fiche and, after a few hours winding them through, you can become somewhat dazed!
It's time for bed before I become dazed in 2014!
Kind regards,
George D.
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Good morning Maddie,
I have just checked what records are available for parishes in Bucks and Herts (because they might help both you and me). It would appear that the only parish data currently searchable on the internet is from the Mormon indexes in Utah, derived from the Bishops' Transcripts (eg the IGI). This means that for these counties, to obtain more detailed or confirmatory information, it is necessary to visit the Bucks Archives at Aylesbury as I did in the 1990s, or the Herts Archives at Hertford, which I have also used. Alternatively it is possible to ask county archives for a particular item, if possible based on their published or searchable indexes, and they will make a search for a fee. Last week I asked Hertford by e-mail for two items at £5 + VAT = £6 each, from their on-line indexes, which they sent me by e-mail very quickly. A good service. I hope this may help.
With kind regards,
George D.
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Hi George
Thank you once again. It is unfortunate that very little is on line for Bucks records although as you say the IGI does cover some of Chenies & my apologies for giving you wrong info as I did actually have baby Henry's christening details & burial from the IGI but not the added info of the confirmation for his parents & the fact that his father was a Paper Maker. :-[
Now I am a little confused, which doesn't take much, :) as we have conflicting dates. IGI states Henry christened 2nd August 1818 & death/burial 19th August 1818, his christening matches with your own dates but his burial is a year later than your 1817 one although the mention of Rickmansworth does sound correct as that is where the family had moved from.
The burial for Sophia on July 27 aged 24 must be correct for my Sophia but was it 1817 or 1818. :-\ I'm guessing if baby Henry was 2 months old when he died in 1818 then Sophia must have also died in 1818. I hope I haven't completely confused you as much as I have completely confused myself. ;D
I have used Hertford Archives for Absent Votes lists before & yes their service was very good, I also use FindMyPast which has quite a good coverage of Hertfordshire records albeit they do still have quite a few records missing. Must admit the Family Search (LDS) site has always been good for Herts records even if they are only transcribed. ;)
Regards
Maddie
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Good morning Maddie,
I am not surprised you are a bit confused! Things don't quite seem to add up. However, I have re-checked the dates I gave you with the notes from my visits to Aylesbury and they agree. The sequence appears to be as follows.
1817 July 27 Burial of Sophia, age 24
1817 Aug 19 Burial of Henry, Rickmansworth, 2 months.
The above two are successive entries.
1818 Aug 2 Christening of Henry.
So, either the Henry of 1817 is not the one you are looking for, as I first suggested, or my 1817 dates are wrong, both of them, being successive entries, and should be 1818. If 1818 is correct, then everything fits.
Since a visit to Aylesbury would not be very practicable, I will send an e-mail to Bucks and ask them whether they can check the year of those two burials.
With kind regards,
George D.
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Hello Maddie - e-mail sent and auto-acknowledged, answer may take 10 days - Regards, George D.
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Hi George
That is very kind of you to go to the trouble for me, please don't incur any expenditure on my behalf.
If Bucks RO aren't able to give you an answer then I can always request a search from Bucks FHS at some time.
Regards
Maddie
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:DearTom I have been missing for a long time due to circumstances, now we are into another set which will obviously be coped with. But if you are right you will have the answer to my dreams. And a Christmas gift too. I have never found the date of Daniel Brown senior's death and you say it was 1864, do you know where it occurred? I have bought several death certificates but everyone was the wrong person, wrong occupation, wrong child witness etc etc. You know I really am looking for his daughter Rosetta born 1825 who was my husband's great great grandmother, she disappeared after giving birth to our great grandfather who was put into the care of the Foundling Hospital in 1847. She had son Edward Warr Brown. When he went into the care of the Foundling Hospital his name was changed to William Hancock. That is why we are called Hancock. I would love to hear more about your ancestor from the Brown family. If you feel like telling me more please do so. Regards and thanks for the info Beth and John Hancock
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Good evening Violet May,
I'm sure you won't mind if I enjoy "putting you out of your misery". So here goes:
Chenies Parish Register, Burials, 1812 onwards, page 55, entry 436:
1864, December 30, Daniel Brown, of London, 84 years, by Coroner's order for burial.
Death Certificate, 1865, Reg District: Kensington, Sub-district Kensington Town.
No 267 (in register)
When and where died: 1864 December, No 7 Kensington Park Terrace, North Kensington
Name and surname: Daniel Brown
Sex: Male
Age: 84 years
Occupation: Milkman & Labourer
Cause of death: Rupture of the heart P M
Signature, description and residence of informant:
Information received from Jas Bird, Coroner for Middlesex, Inquest held 29th December 1864
When registered: Thirtyfirst March 1865
Signature of registrar: C R Banner(?) Registrar
Everything fits together, so it is "98% plus" certain that these two are the same person.
The only oddity is the occupation (at that age in those days, and after being in an almshouse for many years), and the age seems to be some 4 years too high, being, from the censuses for Chenies:
1841, HO 107/46/10, Folio 5, page 4, age 55 (but rounded down)
1851, HO 107/1717/4, Folio 468, page 9, entry 37, age 67
1861, RG9/848/4, Folio 8, page 9,entry 54, age 77
So he should be 80 in 1864, not 84.
We must also ask why, after being in an almshouse in Chenies for many years, he should appear in London.
What I have not yet checked (because I have only just thought about it) is who was living at the Kensington address in 1861.
Another little question is whether he was living alone in 1864, so that nobody knew the date on which he had died - which of course is the reason for the inquest.
A bit more to search for is the coroner's record (which rarely survived) and possibly a newspaper report of the inquest (first find which newspaper).
There is a marriage record, No 853, in St Leonard, Shoreditch, on 4/6/1812, of Daniel Brown, bachelor and Ann Gates, spinster, both in that parish, and both signed. Witnesses: William Gates x his mark, and Elizabeth Austin signed. There are two entirely separate register records of this marriage, but both have identical information, but one seems to be a (manuscript) copy of the other (the original).
You will recognise the Austin name in Chenies, so it is fairly certain we have the right Daniel Brown.
I also note that she is recorded as Ann, and so for all the christenings of their 9 (10?) children, sometimes Anne, but never Mary Ann (which has appeared on a record on the internet, without supporting evidence, and I am sure is pure guesswork, and very probably incorrect).
Of the children of Daniel and Ann, No 7 was christened, page 20, entry 160, 1825, April 17, Rosetta. Father recorded as Innkeeper. I have no other information for her, except that her name, and those of several sisters (also the Ann) were passed down to the children of the first daughter Matilda after she had married Thomas Pope Dickinson in 1830.
But I must stop, before we both get indigestion!
With kind regards,
George Dickinson.
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Good morning Violet May,
I've had a look at the 1861 census.
Kensington Park Terrace, RG9/14, Folio 69, page 5.
Entry 21, No 7 KPT: Boutcher and Rodgers, no apparent link to Daniel Brown. So presumably moved on sometime before late 1864.
But entry 19, No 6, has Eliza(?) Brown, Head, Unmarried, age 37
and Caroline Brown, sister, Unmarried, age 34
Occupation of both: governess
Place of birth, both: Middlesex, Marylebone
Just a Brown name coincidence I suggest, there being no apparent connection to the Browns of Chenies.
That eliminates another possible clue.
With Kind regards,
George D.
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Hello Maddie,
Bucks Archives have checked for me. The two burial dates are 1818, not 1817, so everything now fits.
The reason for my error is that the top of the page is dated 1817 in the "box", but part way down it changes to 1818. The researcher who checked for me says that it at first misled her, and she had to look again to see how it was set up.
So we can now sleep in peace!
Kind regards,
George D.
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Hi George :)
Thank you very much, that sounds like a mistake I have often made when looking at records, it's easy done. ;)
Just a comment, how very strange that your Daniel would be in Kensington when he died & suddenly working as a milkman after living so long in the Alms Houses in Chenies. A first look at the death cert you would immediately say that is not your man but with the burial record you have it does seem to fit. :o My first thought was, did he die on some ones doorstep delivering milk but that's just plain silly. ;D
Thanks again
Maddie
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Good evening Maddie,
Thanks. Just an aside: if the burials for which I recorded the wrong year were in my "direct line" instead of being part of a general "mopping up" the register operation, then I would probably spotted the inconsistency and sorted it out. But these records have lain in my file for something like 15 years, not looked at after my own family line had been established. Anyway, it's now corrected. So there we are.
Re Daniel Brown's death records, everything ties together except the milkman question. I surmise that he may have been seen by neighbours helping the local milkman on his round, or even doing the round on his own. When nobody had seen him for a day or two, or maybe more, then the neighbours became concerned, and maybe broke into the house to find him dead. This would be a circumstance that meant that the Death Certificate could not state the date of death. The certificate does say there was a post mortem (the P.M.), and it was necessary to have an inquest, so everything seems to have been in order.
I guess we must leave it at that (unless the coroner's report can be found).
Kind regards,
George D.
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Hello Tom Mat Sorry its been so long replying. I* am sending an email vial your private email address. Can you let me know if you receive it? Violet May.
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Hello Violet May,
No e-mail received at 13.10 hours 6 January 2015. Please check you have put both "d"s in my e-mail address: aedd....
Happy New Year,
George D.
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Have just received the death certificate for an Ann Brown. Date of death: 24 March 1840. Ann Brown. Female. 45 years. Lunatic Patient. Cause of death Pulmonary Consumption .Informant GP Button Surgeon in attendance County Lunatic Asylum NORWOOD. Registration District: Uxbridge Union. Sub District Hayes Middlesex. Bit disappointed really thought she was born earlier than 1795, if she was born then she would only have been about 17/18 years when she married Daniel. If this is her then the hospital may not have known her date of birth when admitted.???? Regards Violet May
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Hello Violet May,
Thank you for the death certificate details - not as helpful as we might have hoped, because no home address details and hence no opportunity to follow up that address in the 1841 census to check for relatives. The marriage certificate in 1812 does not give ages or mention parental consent, so we have no absolute certainty that we have the right Ann Brown.
Here is my reply to second of your separated messages -
"This pair of messages seems to be separate from the main forum.
"I received it the first time and did a very lengthy detailed reply, which presumably you have not received and I can no longer find. There seems to be something adrift with this system.
"I'll try to copy this onto the forum."
Success!
If you cannot find my reply, can you copy your long message (Control C) and then put it on this forum (Control V) and then I will re-type all the info from my previous message, to follow yours. Computers!!!!
Kind regards,
George D.