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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: whiteKat on Monday 21 February 11 05:36 GMT (UK)
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I am searching for information on arrival in Australia of my 2nd Great Grandfather Richard Harvey who was born in St Just-in-Penwith Cornwall in 1832; and of the arrival in Australia of my 2nd Great Grandmother Margaret Canning born in Dundonald Ayrshire Scotland in 1835 – as per the marriage record.
They were married in Victoria on the 4th May 1954. The marriage record identifies that both of them were formally form Adelaide. They appeared to live in Ballarat as records identify my Great Grandmother being born in Ballarat. They both died in Ballarat – Richard in August 1879 and Margaret in September 1911.
I have searched many sources for information on their departure from the UK and their arrival in Australia but have had no success. Any information or clues to further pursuing my quest would be greatly appreciated. Information as to their movement from South Australia to Victoria would be also greatly received.
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Hi there,
Do you have a copy of the death registration cert for either Richard or Margaret .... It should indicate how long each one was "in the colonies", perhaps noting how long in each colony as you mention that on their marriage cert of 1854, it notes they were both formerly of Adelaide ( ;) they may have both travelled there from any of the other colonies).
There's a Richard Harvey, aged 19 arriving 26 Jun 1850 on the Bussorah Merchant ex Plymouth.
http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide050/PROVguide050.jsp
Cheers, JM
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You are seeking records during the period of the gold rush. Many people who settled in Vic arrived via South Australia, including my gg grandmother. She was unable to find a passage to Melbourne. Of course the reverse happened as well. My OH's gggrandfather and family arrived Victoria and journeyed to SA where they settled. Many Cornish miners emigrated to SA and the lure of gold in Victoria caused a great many to travel to Victoria, especially to the areas around Ballarat and Bendigo.
Have you searched the shipping records listed in Austalian Resources - South Australia at the top of the board. I can find a couple of Richard HARVEY's arriving SA but they emigrated with wives. One who was single was a butcher from Devon. Nothing that appears to be your man.
Are their parents noted on the marriage certificate? Edward is noted as Richard's father on his death reg and only father simply as CANNING on Margaret's.
Were any parents witnesses?
What was Richard's occupation?
Where were they married?
The headings of the columns on a marriage certificate for the period are usually
Residence and then Present and Usual. I haven't seen a marriage cert with former address. I would suggest they had arrived in Vic not long before they were married otherwise their usual addresses would have been in Victoria.
According to Margaret's death registration she was born c1833 but you have said she was born 1835 according to the marriage certificate. Info on death certs is not reliable. Should would have needed consent to marry. Who gave consent? Perhaps we may be able to find a parent arriving in SA ie if they emigrated.
All their twelve children were born at Ballarat.
Their death certificates should note the time in Australia and each state should be listed individually ie if the informant had the knowledge.
Cheers :)
Cando
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Hi Whitekat,
Although I cannot offer much on the arrival details, I wondered if you have the burial information form BALLARAT CEMETERY.
They both died in Ballarat – Richard in August 1879 and Margaret in September 1911. WHITEKAT
HARVEY Richard. Aged 47. Miner. Date 27/8/1879.Old Cemetery E1. 1.20, Of Darling Street, Ballarat.
HARVEY Magaret. Aged 78.Widow. Date 23/9/1911. Location as above. Of 161 Humfray Street Ballarat.
In the same grave-
HARVEY ,John 8/9/1866. 5 weeks
HARVEY,Albert 5/5/1879. 8 months
HARVEY Eliza Jane. 6/6/1921 Wife
HARVEY . Mary. 13/4/1870. 4 months
Sue
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HARVEY Richard.
Hospital record 23 Sep 1874
Place Adair Street. Born Cornwall 39 years Married Miner
In Colony 21 years Religion Wesleyan
Ballarat Hospital Admissions Register 1856-1913.
Name of Recommender - John Little
HARVEY Richard
Hospital record 27 Jan 1875
Place Adair Street. Born Cornwall 41 years Married Miner
In Colony 22 years Religion Wesleyan
Ballarat Hospital Admissions Register 1856-1913.
Name of Recommender - S Wrigley
HARVEY Richard
Hospital record
16 Oct 1878
Place Windemere Street Born Cornwall 45 years Married Miner
In Colony 25 years Religion Cof E
How long in colony
Ballarat Hospital Admissions Register 1856-1913.
Name of Recommender - Dr Usher
HARVEY Richard
Hospital record 28 Jul 1879
Windermere Street Born Cornwall 47 years Married Miner
In Colony 27 years Religion C of E
Ballarat Hospital Admissions Register 1856-1913.
Name of Recommender - J McCafferty
Cando
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Windemere Street and Darling Street intersect. Perhaps they lived on the cnr.
Cando
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Poor bloke had a rough trot with his health it seems :(
Sue
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I am absolutely overwhelmed by the response to my quest on Richard Harvey and Margaret Canning. Thank you majm, cando and sparrett - I am now given areas for further research. Currently i am digesting all the information you each have given me. I do know that Richard Harvey died in Ballarat Hospital from stomach cancer as per his death record. It does look as if he had an admission the year prior to 1879 - it must not have been an easy death. His death was 27th August 1879. And yes he was a tin miner in Cornwall.
I am delighted that the admission documentation identifies the number of years in the Colony - that being 27 years meaning he arrived in Australia in 1852. That gives more information in searching for his actual arrival. I do think the first two entries for admission belong to another Richard Harvey - do you agree? Is there any way in gaining more information from the hospital in regard to records kept or are the admission details the only data available?
The information on Richard and Margaret's graves is amazing. I now know where to find them. I do thank each of you.
Thanks
whiteKat
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Ballarat Hospital Admissions Register 1856-1913 is as it is described....a register only. I would suggest that this register is the only information available.
I wouldn't base the correct year of arrival on an entry in a hospital register. In 1878 it was 25 years and in 1879 it was 27 ::) You mentioned Richard's 1854 marriage certificate stated formerly Adelaide....however I suggest that his usual residence was Adelaide as I have never seen a formerly of address on a marriage cert In Victoria in this era ...but perhaps it did happen on this occasion.
It is helpful for us if all the certificate details are given.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks Cando for information on the Hospital Registers being Registers only. I suppose one always hopes for more!
I also take on board that documents don't always relate correct dates but a range for possible arrival dates can be determined I believe from the information given.
On the differences between the four entries for hospital admissions - could not the first two entries be a different Richard Harvey to the second two admissions since the ages are different; the religions are different, and the street residences are different? Or am I trying to read too much into the information?
In regard to the word 'formally' on Richard and Margaret's marriage record - the word was actually mine - my mistake. I have further reviewed the document and what is stated under the heading of 'Residence' for 'Present' - is 'Bendigo Street', and for 'Usual' - is 'Adelaide'. The same applies to both. There is no 'formally' at all.
Thanks
whiteKat
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Hi whiteKat
There are a large number of HARVEY's who died and were buried in the BALLARAT area, including about 4 RICHARD's
I am able to see the last addresses, but not all entries are detailed. some just say BALLARAT or Hospital,
Many Harvey's lived in Windemere Street and in most cases a street number is not given. The BDM indexes would need further searching to work out the connections. if any, between them.
However, of those sharing the grave with RICHARD and MARGARET
MARY HARVEY who died in 1870 aged 4 months lived in ADAIR Street and
ALBERT HARVEY who died in 1879 aged 8 months lived in WINDEMERE Street.
Both these were the children of RICHARD and MARGARET.
The other 2 interred are non-specific in address.
It therefore would seem both addresses applied to RICHARD and MARGARET
The only HARVEY listed in DARLING Street- no street number- (apart from the RICHARD himself-above) is ALBERT VICTOR HARVEY who died in 1893 aged 21 .
His parents were William and Sarah Ann Wells.
I am not sure if this is of much help in sorting out the Hospital record.
Sue
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Thank you sparrett and cando again,
The whole story seems a little confusing yet I am beginning to find threads that make sense. The Cemetery details are a great help - I wasn’t aware that you could obtain them. Thank you immensely for finding these for me. And having street names identified helps greatly as well.
It would appear then that the four hospital entries could relate to my Richard after all, as his children lived in both Adair and Windemere Street. It seems that he lived in Adair Street at least up to the mid seventies then moved somewhere thereafter to Windemere Street. Darling Street however poses more questions since a Harvey of different parentage lived there. Windemere Street does intersect with Darling Street so perhaps, as was suggested earlier, there could be a connection or the residence is one and the same.
Eliza Jane also poses questions especially being buried in the same grave. My Great Grandmother was Eliza Ann born of Margaret and Richard in 1855 and moved to Sydney when she married my Great Grandfather George Albert Beyer. She died in Sydney in 1935. I have found no other Eliza being born to Margaret and Richard yet there is a MARY JANE Harvey born to them in 1876 (Source the Australian Birth Index). She would have been 45 years in 1921 at the time of death of the ELIZA JANE Harvey interred in the same grave. Could there be confusion with the name and the marriage status? Any ideas where I could search further?
Thank you
whiteKat
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This is the death registration for ELIZA
HARVEY Eliza Jane
Father Sior Willie
Mother Elizth GAVIN
Death Place: BALLT
Age 45
Year 1921
Reg 4208
Sue
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Her marriage-----
HARVEY Jas
To WILLEY Eliza Jane
Birth Place BALLARAT WEST
Year 1893
Reg. 4809
Was James a son of RICHARD?
Sue
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Death
HARVEY Eliza Jane
Father Sior Willie Mother Elizabeth GAVIN
At Ballarat 45 years 1921 Reg#4208
Birth
WILLEY Eliza Jane
Father Josiah William Willey Mother Eliza Mccracken Gavin
At Stawell 1876 Ref#11255
Marriage
HARVEY James born Ballarat West
WILLEY Eliza Jane born Stawell
1893 Reg#4809
Only birth I can see on the indexes.
HARVEY Ruby Eliza
Father James Mother Eliza Jane WILLEY
At Ballarat 1894 Reg#17467
Cheers
Cando
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Eliza's parents married in 1874 and her father was born in Cornwall.
Cheers
Cassie
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JAMES HARVEY, the son is buried at BALLARAT OLD CEMETERY.
Aged 66
24/1/1938.
Location NBD 68
He shares the location with
LESLIE BARNES
aged 49
24/1/1941
Sue
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Australian Electoral Rolls
1903
HARVEY Eliza 122˝ Talbot Street, Ballarat HD
HARVEY James 122˝ Talbot Street, Ballarat Miner
1914
HARVEY Eliza Jane 708 Talbot Street, Ballarat HD [Perhaps there was an error in transcribing the house number from the enrolment card.]
HARVEY James 708 Talbot Street, Ballarat Miner
1920
HARVEY Eliza Jane 706 Talbot Street, Ballarat Nurse
HARVEY Ruby Eliza 706 Talbot Street, Ballarat HD
There is a will for Eliza on PROV but it has not been digitised
http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=54
Cheers :)
Cando
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This is the marriage for RUBY ELIZA to the man who shares JAMES HARVEY's (her father) burial place.
;D
HARVEY Ruby Eliza
To BARNES Leslie
Year: 1919
Reg. 1737
Sue
ADDING
Her death
BARNES Ruby Eliza
Father Harvey James
Mother Eliza
Place BALL
Age 86
Year 1983
Reg 15564
Sue
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Hello again sperrett and cando,
Thank you for the last lot of information. The Eliza Jane Harvey question now seems to be put to rest as Richard did have a son James born in 1871 the date fitting well with Eliza Jane’s age – not that that is necessarily significant. So Eliza Jane could well have been buried with her parents-in-law for whatever reason – her husband James living till 1938.
Now my interest lies with trying ti find Margaret Canning's arrival in Australia. It would seem Richard arrived sometime between 1852 - 1854. I would love to find documentation to support it! I will keep going nonetheless.
Thanks
whiteKat
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Hi sparrett and cando,
When I last replied I hadn't seen your last responses. Your information is amazing I am learning so much about this family - of Richard and James his wife and daughter. I am so grateful - it all helps in putting the picture together.
Thanks
whiteKat
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This is a remote possibility, but worthy of consideration perhaps.
An item in a document describing CORNISH people on the early BALLARAT fields. Names a RICHARD HARVEY
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bz9/
Page 240
It has factors of place, origin, year, age etc. together with the name JOHN( seen in others of your RICHARD's family)May be of significance.
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BARNES, Ruby Eliza.
Interment
Aged 86
Date 12/7/1983.
Widow.
Of QEGC
Location Lawn G. 33R17BRA678? -1A1M
I think QEGC may relate to the QUEEN ELIZABETH ?? CENTRE which offers, among other services, a palliative care section.
Sue
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Hi
I am so excited at the site you identified ‘The Cornish Overseas’. The Richard Harvey spoken about in the article could well be a possibility as to being my Richard.
And what made the article more exciting is that I could really identify with the places mentioned in the article as my husband and I have just returned from a trip to England during which we visited Cornwall. I was on the ancestry hunt for Richard at the time and visited Truro Records Office where I obtained information on his birth and that of his parents. We travelled down the west coast of Cornwall visited St Just where Richard was born and many other Cornish towns. We were fortunate enough in having opportunity to go down the Geevor tin mine - not operative as a mine now but open to visitors on guided tours. Most interesting and such a hard life they had. Reading the article life in Ballarat did not seem much better at times.
Thanks again
Kate
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Re: Richard HARVEY and Margaret CANNING – arrival in Australia
Hi whiteKat, I have just joined RootsChat.com. I came across your chat regarding Eliza Ann Harvey whom I have been chasing after as Beyers not Beyer. I extracted the name from the birth certificate for Mary Jane Harvey because she signed as informant for the birth details.
Richard and Margaret Harvey are my Great Great Grandparents.
I have gathered almost all the BDM’s for the birth families of Richard and Margaret and their son John and Elizabeth Ellen Harvey (nee Wates). They are my direct line from Richard and Margaret. I refer to my John as John2 in order to distinguish him from his brother John who was born/died in 1866, one year before he was born.
Richard’s parents were Edward Millett Harvey and Mary Rowe. I believe they came to South Australia via Plymouth on the Duchess of Northumberland departing London 30 July 1847 and arrived Port Adelaide 29 October 1847. The captain was Benjamin Freeman.
Edward’s name was recorded in the ships’ log as Edwaid Misset Harvey instead of Edward Millett. It would appear that the loops in the LL’s were written too low so they were interpreted as SS’s. The reference to google is:
BOUND FOR SOUTH AUSTRALIA - DUCHESS OF NORTHUMBERLAND 1847 by Diane Cummings
file:///D|/...f Northumberland/BOUND FOR SOUTH AUSTRALIA - DUCHESS OF NORTHUMBERLAND 1847 by Diane Cummings.htm[18/03/2011 9:34:50 PM]
Both
The last UK information I have for Edward Harvey and his family is in the 1841 UK Census the details were provided by FreeCEN Home Page
PIECE: H07/144/8 PLACE: Penwith Cornwall Emuneration District 2
CIVIL PARISH: St.Just Ecclesiastical Parish FOLIO:17 PAGE 14
ADDRESS: Callartha
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born
HARVEY Edward M 30 Miner Tin Cornwall
HARVEY Mary F 35 Cornwall
HARVEY Richard M 9 Cornwall
HILL John M 75 Miner Copper Cornwall
ROWE John M 70 Mason Cornwall
South Australian Deaths - 1836 to 1850 - Barry Leadbeater of Family History South Australia records the death of Edward Millet Harvey as aged 43 on 12 October 1849 at Kapunda, South Australia. I since have purchased a copy of the said death certificate but it does not show where he was buried. I have this problem on the back burner.
Copyright©1996-2011 B Leadbeater, Australia
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/births-marriages-deaths/deaths.html
I was able to purchase a marriage certificate from the Birth, Deaths and Marriages Registration Office Adelaide for the widow of Edward, Mary Harvey to a William Sansum. However I cannot locate where either Mary or William Sansum finally ended up. I will continue searching for all 3 graves.
1. I am also currently looking for anything on Margaret Canning. What was her true age, and is there a birth/baptismal certificate available? How did she come into Australia? Who was with her? I have been exploring Canning Families that came into Australia hoping that will provide something concrete.
2. I am also looking for what happened to Mary Jane Harvey? Where did she end up? There is no recorded Victorian death certificate in that name or anything close to it. I spent a lot of time trying to find her. My father mentioned to me once that Eliza was supposedly fond of Mary Jane so I suppose it is possible that she may have asked her to move to Sydney to be with her once their mother died (22 Sep 1911), then their sister Margaret, Mrs Patten (21 Nov 1917) and sister in law Eliza Jane Harvey (3 June 1921) all died.
I refer you to an article that I came across which includes a Richard Harvey, Miner, Kapunda, South Australia. Just Google in the following details. It is from a TROVE Digitised newspaper, South Australian Register dated Thursday 7 March 1850
Article: DECLARATION OF CONFIDENCE IN MR JOHN STEPHENS
trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/38447147 - Cached
Regards,
AUSSIEROSS1
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Hi AUSSIEROSS1
This appears to be the only William SANSUM who was at Kapunda.
[Listed in the Biographical Index SA that is known to have some errors]
SANSOM William b: Ramsay HUN ENG d: 17.5.1877 bd: Ballarat VIC
par: Joseph and Hannah nee BALL
arr: 1846 HOOGHLY
dep: VIC 1850s
occ: Miner
res: Kapunda rel: C/E
m: Sarah GERRISON 16.4.1832 Ramsay HUN ENG
ch: Eliza (1843-1922), John (1847-1925)
DEATH in VIC
William SANSUM
Father: Joseph
Mother: Hannah UNKNOWN
Age: 57
Birth Place: ENGLAND
Event: D
Year: 1877
Reg Number: 3795
I did not find a death for his 1st wife in SA.
TROVE has articles concerning William SANSUM in legal matters, and one mentions a Mary with the surname SAMPSON.
I wonder if this lady was connected?
DEATH in VIC
Mary SAMPSON
Father: Rowe Richard
Mother: Mary UNKNOWN
Age: 52
Birth Place: CORN
Event: D
Year: 1857
Reg Number: 1160
This looks like a marriage for William in VIC.
William SANSUM
Birth Place: HUNTINGDONSHIRE
Spouse: Harriot Emma PEASNELL
Event: M
Year: 1873
Reg Number: 3661
Essie
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Hello AUSSIEROSS I and Essie,
I am really excited at seeing your post. Richard and Mary Harvey are my GG grandparents as well. I am out this morning but will talk more later when home.
whiteKat
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Hello again AUSSIERSS1,
It is nice knowing that other people are searching for the same ancestors - the more heads the better one hopes.
I have had a great deal of trouble trying to find Richard Harvey's arrival in Australia. It never occurred to me that he may have come with his parents. I suppose that is a real possibility. I do hope that the arrival on the Duchess of Northumberland is correct.
A few things concern me however with the 1847 date of arrival:
1. Firstly in the records from the Hospital on his various admissions as talked about above - questions are asked as to length of stay in the Colony and even though the number of years differ in the records none appear to correlate with an 1847 arrival!
2. In 1847 Richard would have been 15. In those times would they have classified a 15 year old as a child as documented on the passenger list for the Duchess of Northumberland? I suppose if he was with his parents that would be so.
3. The name of Edward 'Millet' Harvey worries me a little. Where does the name 'Millet' come from - I can't see it mentioned anywhere else in regard to Edward? Is it a family name?
4. Also on the passenger list there is no mention of Edward's wife's name - can we be sure that it is the right Edward? I am wondering if you have verification of this being the Harveys we hope them to be? I don't want to sound pessimistic but would love to have some verification - I really want it to be them.
As to Margaret Canning I have come up to brick wall really. I can't find much about her anywhere. My mother was of the belief that she came from Ayrshire in Scotland and the marriage entry for Richard and Margaret certainly confirms this. The record says she comes from Dundonald Ayrshire but on 1841 and 1851 census cannot find anything to support this. Richard and Margaret's marriage record claim her parents to be William and Ann.
The only entry for a Margaret Canning in the 1841 census is that of a family with William as father and an Agnes as mother in Kirkkudbrightshire. I suppose an 'Agnes' could well be called 'Ann'. The dates appear correct for Margaret's birth. I know there was a William Canning in Australia at that time as he was a witness to their marriage. I am assuming this to be brother since an addit has been entered on the side of the record stating that the father had given consent - she was 19 years old at marriage and obviously the father was not present. I also have information as to her death.
And yes Eliza Ann Harvey married George Albert Beyer in 1876 and my grandmother Adelaide Beyer was born in 1883 in Ballarat - their third and last child. It was some time after that that they moved to Sydney - to date I don't know when I am still working on that. In the family talk i have never heard mention of Eliza's sister Mary Jane - so can't help you there whether she came to NSW or not!
Oh and by the way the John Rowe in the Census I think is Mary's father but have no idea who John Hill maybe.
Well that was a bit of a spiel and hopefully of some help. It would be good to hear more from you about the family if you wish.
Regards
Kate
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Hi Essie and Kate,
This is really exciting with all this activity regarding my ancestors.
I regret that I will not be able to respond to all your postings tonight but I will do my best for tomorrow, Melbourne time.
Regards,
Ross.
:D :D
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Hi Kate and AUSSIEROSS1
These CANNINGs were assisted immigrants to SA in 1851.
http://143.216.32.39/archivessrsa/t1tbmain.asp?MainURL=t1tbdui.asp&FunctionName=$SASABKWDSCH
Official assisted passenger list, 1851
Canning Mary 51/12 (wonder if this was meant to be Marg?)
Canning William 51/12 (2) (= father and son)
51/12 = twelfth ship in 1851 namely the Oregon
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/oregon1851.htm
Canning William aged 39 Miner from Ayr
Canning William aged 14 Miner from Ayr
Canning Mary 19 Servant Ayr (age is a close match?)
TROVE
South Australian Register <Monday 3 November 1851>
Passengers from the ship Oregon in this report included only a Tom CANNING. But also a Mary and Wm CUMMING – wonder if someone confused the surname with CANNING???
Two W CANNINGs ventured to Melbourne
South Australian Register Wednesday 31 March 1852
CLEARED OUT. , Tuesday, March 30— The barque Margaret Brock, 245 tons, McMeckun, master, for Melbourne/ Passengers— Mrs. Bayer, Mr. and Mrs. Jeffery, Mr. and Mrs. Rowe, in the cabin;
W. Fenwick, B. and R. Harry, W. C. Canning, W. Canning, . . . . .
Is this their return to Adelaide?
South Australian Register <Thursday 16 December 1852>
ARRIVED. Wednesday, December 15— The brig Lord Montgomery, 140 tons, W. Francis, master, from Melbourne . . . . . . . McKinnon, Canning 2, Brown, Itching, Obroy, Hanningham, Omrood, Woods 2,
Also in TROVE
LIST OF UNCLAIMED LETTERS.—JUNE 30, 1854.
South Australian Register < Saturday 15 July 1854>
Article ... Campbell, Angus Campbell, Johu Campbell, Margaret Canning,
UNCLAIMED LETTERS, AUG. 31, 1854
South Australian Register <Tuesday 12 September 1854>
Article ... Cameron, Evan Cameron, J. M. Campbell, Nicol Campbell, Miss Margaret Canning, Mary Canny,
Letters unclaimed because Margaret was by then in Melbourne.
Essie
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:D ;) :D
Hi Essie and Kate,
That information about the Canning family looks rather interesting in particular the unclaimed letters.
I will see if it ties in with what I have on this possible ‘Canning’.
Victorian Index Detailed Result for William Canning Registration Year:1890, Registration Number:14635
William (Senior) Canning – Died Ballarat 2 Nov 1890 age 84 years, born Antrim in Ireland about 1806 and he was married at age 24 years in Ayr Scotland (about 1830) to Ann Greenlees (I think, or it could be Greenless). This is good because on Margaret’s marriage certificate it refers to her saying that her parents were Wm & Ann. It appears that Ann may have died, or the parents split up before he came to Australia as she is not mentioned again. The death certificate says that he spent 39 years in Victoria.
William (Junior) provided the names and ages of his siblings for the death certificate. Wm (Junior) became a stockbroker so I believe that the ages would be fairly accurate. They were:-
Daniel was 58 years in 1890, (so about 19 years in 1851)
Mary was 56 years in 1890, (so about 17 years in 1851)
Margaret was 54 years in 1890, (so about 15 years in 1851 and 18 in 1854 for her marriage).
William was 52 years in 1890, (so about 13 years in 1851 and 16 in 1854 for the marriage).
Ann, the sister was deceased.
I believe therefore that the ‘William’ who signed the marriage certificate was indeed Margaret’s father because a child would not be acceptable as a witness nor on William Juniors word that the father said he approved of the marriage. It is possible that a letter of approval could have been presented for the occasion but I believe it also would not have been acceptable. Ann the mother was not present so an Elizabeth Mullins signed as a witness. William Canning (Senior) is buried with his son and family in the Family plot in the Ballarat Cemetery at Area CCN Section 13 Location 1.
Source for the above certificates was: online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action... - Cached
Thanks again Essie for your work.
Regards, Ross.
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Hi Ross and Essie,
So much information to digest. I can't tell you how happy I am at your sharing of all this information on the Cannings. Your work Ross and Essie is amazing. It seemed I had hit a brick wall with the Cannings but both of you have opened the gate - thank you so very much.
It had crossed my mind that the Cannings could have come from Ireland but I had nothing to support this thought. And it does make sense if times had been tough in Ireland - to cross the water to Ayreshire. One question though is why didn't they appear on a census - ops I think I am now answering that myself - they could have come to Scotland in the interim years between 1841 and before the census of 1851 and then set sail for Australia in 1851!
Also just a quick question on the marriage record - would the minister have written that the father had given permission if he was a witness to and present at the marriage of Richard and Margaret?
In regard to the death certificate of William the senior and the naming of all his children - those other than William and Margaret - were they still in Scotland? I will have to try and obtain a copy of William's death certificate. I now have so many ancestors to visit in the Ballarat cemetery - I am sure it would be quite moving.
It is also exciting (sorry about the frequent use of the word 'exciting' - but it seems to well explain my feelings) having others researching and sharing the same ancestors. It is obvious of course as the Harveys had quite a number of children!
All the information presented seems to fit so very well - do either of you have confirmation as these being the Cannings of our concern - to being our true ancestors? Any family stories handed down? I only wish I had asked my grandmother more questions as to her origins!
Kind regards
Kate
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:D :D
Hi Essie & Kate
Thank you for your postings responding to me, I’m still going through them. According to Richard’s death certificate he died aged 47 years on 26 Aug 1879 that would mean he was born-baptised about 1832, in particular 13 Feb 1832 in St Just in Penwith. I am not overly concerned about the 6 months i.e. 47.5 years old.
1. Also his death certificate says further that he spent 27 years in Victoria.
2. The marriage certificate for Richard & Margaret was dated 4 May 1854, and says Richard was aged 22 years old which is consistent with his
birth-baptismal year of 1832.
3. According to the 1841 census Richard was 9 years which is consistent with an 1832 birth/baptism. I believe that Richard would have been classified as a child in the ship’s log. I extracted the abbreviated quotation below by typing into Google: 1847 uk a boy aged 15 be called a child?
A BRIEF HISTORY OF CHILDREN By Tim Lambert. Children in the 19th Century ………… In the early 19th century parliament passed laws to curtail child labour. However they all proved to be unenforceable. The first effective law was passed in 1833. It was effective because for the first time factory inspectors were appointed to make sure the law was being obeyed. The new law banned children under 9 from working in textile factories. It said that children aged 9 to 13 must not work for more than 12 hours a day or 48 hours a week. Children aged 13 to 18 must not work for more than 69 hours a week. Furthermore nobody under 18 was allowed to work at night (from 8.30 pm to 5.30 am). Children aged 9 to 13 were to be given 2 hours education a day.
4. Edward Millet Harvey was the father of our Richard Harvey. His father and mother were Samuel and Catherine Harvey.
The following details were extracted from: Source:
https://www.familysearch.org
Edward Millett Harvey
16 Feb 1806St. Just-in-Penwith, Cornwall, England
father's name: Samuel Harvey
mother's name: Catherine Harvey
If you Google ‘Millett of Penpol and Marazion’ you will find that in 1699 Martin Millett of the Millett Family bought Bosavern House in St.Just, Penwith, Cornwall. The Harvey & Millett families were believed to be ‘friendly’ with each other. It was not a Harvey family name. At stages through time some of them lived at Boasavern. I also know that things are not true until proven true.
On another point I purchased birth certificates for your grandmother and her sisters, and birth & death certificate for your great grandfather. I also purchased the marriage & death certificate for Eliza Ann Beyer. I had difficulty getting it until you told me the exact year. The reason for this was it had been recorded as Eliza Ann Harvy.
Source for the above mentioned certificates was online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action... - Cached
Regards,
Ross.
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Hello Ross,
What an absolute wealth of information - again thank you so much for sharing it all with us especially explaining the 'Millet' and 'what age is a child' components. The poor children of that era - labouring so hard and so long - unimaginable to us!
It is after midnight and I need more time to digest the spread sheet. What a lot of effort you have put in - thank you. I will look more closely tomorrow.
Regards
Kate
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:( :(
Hi Essie and Kate,
Regarding the spreadsheet I posted yesterday I made a typing error in the heading.
It should have read conflicting places, rather than conflicting dates. Sorry about that.
The references between 1854-1861 with Dundonald in Scotland and then Dundonald being in Ayrshire Scotland were definitely not correct.
I believe that Kilbarney should read Kilbirnie. I guess the writer merely wrote the name as it sounded when spoken.
I am looking into trying to find out where she was born/baptised using those places provided by the informants. It makes it just a little bit more difficult.
I must log off now. I hope to be back later in the evening. Thanks again for all your efforts.
Regards,
Ross.
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Hello Ross,
I am a little confused! With the spreadsheet are you referring to where all Margaret's and Richard's children were born? Or am I interpreting the spreadsheet incorrectly? I understand the dates when the children were born but what are the ages in the column referring to? I do apologise for appearing so dumb - I am really very interested in your determining but feel I am missing something. And Kilbirnie - you mention the informants!Which informants are you referring to?
Thanks so much
Kate
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:'( :'(
Hi Kate and Essie,
You are not dumb. Never think that. I posted the spreadsheet when I was rather tired, and it is my fault that I did not inform you and Essie the purpose for which it was created.
I created the spreadsheet to identify all occasions where Margaret Canning’s birth place was mentioned, i.e. the date of the certificate, the type of the certificate, the person who the certificate was for, the surname used for Margaret on that certificate, (the estimated age Margaret would have been at the time of that certificate using her marriage certificate age of 19) and where her place of birth was, and who the person was who provided the information for the certificate.
It highlighted variations of what her age of was, and particularly no real consistency in her place of birth. I created this to be a tool to provide me with assurance, or otherwise, to assist me to find accurately where and when she was born, and to ultimately know her true age when she died.
Regards,
Ross.
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:) ;)
Hi Kate,
I received today the death certificates for George and Eliza.
Do you know where their cremated remains are buried?
Is it in the Independant Section of the Rookwood Cemetery because I contacted all other separate sections of the cemetery today and they were not registered as being located there.
Thanks & Regards,
Ross.
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Hi Ross
Thanks for your explanation. Yes, yes, yes - I can see it clearly now Margaret's age when the events occurred and the record of her birth place on the documents. The places differ considerably - they are close but do have some distance between them.
As yet Ross I haven't obtained all the pertinent certificates relating to the Harveys and offspring - but am in the process of doing so. And unfortunately I don't know where George and Eliza's cremated remains are but my husband and I can do more research in that area. In the near future we plan to visit Rookwood - I wish I could be of more help.
Regards
Kate
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:) ;)
Hi Essie and Kate,
I have been looking through Reply #25 that you posted.
At the moment I haven’t been able to obtain anything further on the only William Sansum who was at Kapunda. But I will keep looking.
The William Sansum with father Joseph and mother Hannah I already had a death certificate. This person is not My William Sansum.
I am interested in Mary Sampson with father Richard Rowe Age 52 because it was a Richard Rowe who provided his residence for My William Samsun and Mary Harvey (nee Rowe ) to be married in at Helston near Kapunda 28 Mar 1853. The father of My Mary was William Rowe.
I am also interested in William Sansum married in Victoria 1873. I may be able to obtain prior marriage details from his marriage certificate such as when and where his previous wife died, that is if there was a first wife.
This is all good stuff Essie you have done really well, thank you for your assistance it is most appreciated.
Regards,
Ross.
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:-[ :-[
Hi Essie and Kate,
I refer you to my Reply #34 that I posted.
Well I have some egg on my face. In it I said the following:
The references between 1854-1861 with Dundonald in Scotland and then Dundonald
being in Ayrshire Scotland were definitely not correct.
Well that was wrong, completely wrong. The reason is I came across the following
reference/source: http://uk.epodunk.com/profiles/scotland/dundonald/3001682
I have shortened the web page and placed important parts below:
Dundonald is in South Ayrshire, Scotland.
It is in the historic county of Ayrshire.
(For more information about the ancient counties of the UK,
see the historic counties page and the place types page.)
Historic sites and museums: Dundonald Castle
Sections below provide additional information and links about Dundonald
travel and tourism, maps, recreation, government and transportation.
Dundonald Web sites
South Ayrshire Council
Cemeteries
Scotland cemeteries - message board
Communities
Communities near Dundonald
Events
ePodunk festival listings
Family history & family records
Ayrshire message board
Birth, marriage and death records - nationwide
BritishIslesGenWeb
British phone books 1880-1984
Census records
Genuki - Scotland
Genuki page for Ayrshire
GenWeb page for South Ayrshire
Family Records Centre
General Register Office - UK
Immigration records
Military records
Parish & probate record search
Probate record guide
Wills - Search National Archives
This means in future, in relation to UK Geography
to keep my big mouth shut.
Regards,
Ross.
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Hello Essie and Ross,
Again thank you for all your very detailed information. And no egg on your face at all. You are doing an amazing job - it takes a bit of to-ing and fro-ing to get to where you want to be and I am just so grateful for all this discussion concerning the Harveys and Rowes. Please never keep your mouth shut - nothing was amiss. All posts make us asses and reassess what we know - nothing wrong with that.
I consider myself very fortunate in having someone with the same interests. I have learnt so much - particularly with the Cannings. I have been rereading all this information and I have a few questions. However I have a few things on my plate today so will talk later.
Just wanted to let you know my interests continue. Also want to discuss some death and injuries in the mines on information I have found.
Regards
Kate
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:) ;) :D
Hi Kate & Essie,
I have prepared another spreadsheet.
The spreadsheet is designed to be a one page presentation for the Birth Family of Richard Harvey and Margaret Canning. I only included Eliza Jane Harvey in it because she was interred in the family plot.
I have sufficient information to prepare another spreadsheet that would include the grandchildren of Richard and Margaret but I want to focus on moving back in generations of birth families. I just want to identify how far back I can go then include the birth family grandchildren afterwards. Therefore if something happens to me, some family member in the future will be in a good position to complete my work
.
Whenever I have the time I am also entering the full details I have obtained, i.e. the father, mother, children etc into a data base called Family Tree Maker. I really don’t know how I ever found the time to go to work.
I had difficulty with posting the original size of the spreadsheet so I had to remove the Residences of the people listed on the sheet because of a lack of space.
I hope the spreadsheet is helpful.
Regards,
Ross.
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Hi All
Just reading through all the info on this thread. Ross has put a new post on the Ayrshire Board/Scotland this morning. With what I have now read here, I think you might now have some info relating to Margaret and her family to work from. This is basically what I found:
There is a family in Dundonald in 1841 who might fit. Spellings as always for this period are fluid and variable! You are likely to find any form of spelling for the surname around Cannon/Canning/Cunning etc.:
Wm Cannon 35 b. Ireland
Ann Cannon 35 b. Ireland
Janet Cannon 8
Mary Cannon 7
Margt Cannon 6
Wm Cannon 4
Ann Cannon 1
Address: Shewalton Collery, Dundonald
And for 1851 - all the children born in Dundonald:
Willm Cannon 42, miner b. Ireland (likely widowed? can't tell from the transcript)
Mary Cannon 18, tenter
Margt Cannon 17, Hand Loom Weaver Cotton
Wm Cannon 14
Ann Cannon 11
Address: Schoolwynd, Kilbirnie, Ayrshire
A possible reference to sister Janet (who shows with the family in 1841) marrying an Andrew Ireland and leaving for Australia in March 1854 on the 'Forest Monarch'. Her parents are given on her death reg in 1903 in Ballarat, Victoria, as William Canning and Elizabeth Ann Greenleigh.
Sad news is there are no birth or christening entries that I can find for the family in the Old Parish Registers which is a pity. There are always gaps in the registers for lots of reasons. It also cost money to make these registrations and many families didn't. I don't think it would have applied in this case (Ross, you mentioned that Margaret's marriage in 1854 was in a Presbyterian church?) but the also worth bearing in mind when searching Scottish OPRs that these were in the main for the established Church of Scotland, ie presbyterian and not other denominations.
To help with parishes in the county of Ayrshire and counties in Scotland in general, these maps are always useful:
www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-ayr.htm
www.scotlandsfamily.com/county-map.htm
Monica :)
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I am going to add the Scottish post here. Jonn may have found some Roman Catholic baptisms for the children of William and Elizabeth Ann.... www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,564475.0.html
Never say never in this type of research ::) ;D
Monica
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Looks this one belongs to the family also:
Death:
BRODIE Annie age 44yrs d. 1884 BALLARAT #167
Father: Canning Wm
Mother: Ann GREENLESS
Marriage:
BRODIE George m. CANNING Ann 1860 #1689
There are also a large number of children born to them which repeat the family given names.
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The IRELAND/CANNING & BRODIE/CANNING families are also buried at Ballarat cemetery:
http://ballaratcemeteries.com.au/php/search.php
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Merlin, there is a daughter Ann showing on the 1841/51 Scottish censuses. Born c.1840 so death year and age would fit for her.
Monica :)
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This is an update to the birth family of Richard and Margaret which was posted on page 5 of topic Richard Harvey and Margaret Canning - arrival in Australia.
I have been chasing the birth certificate for Edward Harvey who died on 17 August 1897 aged 39 years and is buried at Ballarat Cemetery Area F1 Section 11 Location 3R2. The answer is plain and simple. Yes of course he was born but registered under the name Richard born 9 November 1858 but Registered 1859 no. 2314. For some reason the parents chose to change it and use the name Edward, or the informant for the registration i.e. his mother made a mistake. But no matter what it should have been the result is the registered birth certificate says Richard and registered death certificate says Edward.
Also there is insufficient time for 2 confinements and the family didn’t inform the death of a ‘Richard’ on any BDM registered certificates.
The birth certificate for Joseph Harvey dated 9 May 1863 Registered 1863 no. 6130 mentions Edward as being 3 years, so they were using the name Edward then.
I only have one family member’s death certificate to locate now to complete the spreadsheet and that is the death certificate for Mary Jane Harvey born 16 October 1876 Registered 1878 no.13693. It has been difficult to find because she may have married, and/or moved interstate and eventually died making it more difficult but I will not be deterred, I WILL find it.
Regards to all, AUSSIEROSS1.
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Hi Merlin, Thank you for your contribution towards the cause to find the birth family of Margaret Canning. It is very much appreciated. ;D
You know I have been on this quest for over 2 years and I just knew that this William Canning, who died 2 Nov 1890 aged 84 was the father of my Margaret.
But I didn’t know how to prove it.
Now with the contributions received by people like your good self I would say that whiteKat & AUSSIEROSS1 are very close to achieving our objective. 8)
MonicaL did indicate in an earlier posting we may not be able obtain registered documents to prove our theories. We shall see ;) :)
Regards AUSSIEROSS1.
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Hello to all,
I have been away but I am home now and have just read all the recent posts. You people - monical, MERLIN and AUSSIROSS 1 - are absolutely amazing with your input and effort, and the interest you show in other people's ancestral searches. I can't thank you enough.
I have yet to digest all of the information and put it all in perspective but it does appear that we are closing in on these elusive ancestors with some positive outcomes. I have some homework to do but in the meantime I needed to post my thanks to all for all your generosity.
Regards
Kate
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MonicaL did indicate in an earlier posting we may not be able obtain registered documents to prove our theories. We shall see ;) :)
;D Ah, Ross, that was before Jonn's (from the Ayrshire Board) great find on the Roman Catholic Pre 1855 registers here www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Monica
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Hello All. ;D ;DP
Please be advised that Margaret Cannon was born on 04/04/1835 to William Cannon and Anne Greenlees,
and later baptised at Irvine on 13/06/1835 in St.Margaret's Ayr. ;) :)
I'm having trouble getting her siblings but I will try again tomorrow. :(
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Ross, less is sometimes more for searches on SP where spellings are rigid without the use of a wildcard.
Try searching for C*N*N* surname (no first names). Then William (father) and mother Ann*. For Ann*'s surname search as GREENL*.
You should get 8 entries. I think there are some pairs there, such as two entries for Margaret's details. All 8 entries seem to show at St Margaret's, Ayr.
Monica
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Hello all,
On the subject of Margaret's surname I recently found a very basic handwritten family tree written by my mother many years back and on that she had Margaret's surname as 'Cannon'.
Margaret Canning/Cannon was my mother's Great Grandmother and so in family storytelling the name 'Cannon' must have been spoken of with some confidence in this name. This is just a little thing but could possibly be taken as further substantiation of the surname varying between Cannon and Canning.
I am really thrilled with all the findings and discussion leading to hopefully pinpointing our true ancestors.
Regards
Kate
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My name is Sharon Watson Richard and Margaret were also my GG parents. I live in Ballarat and can help with any enquires you may have re the area. I have visted the Ballarat Cemetery the graves are hard to locate and some are unmarked. I am on Ancestry.com Clurey family tree. In relation to William Sansum there is one buried in Ballarat cemetery died 8/5/1877. Also buried near him are unnamed twins. have you any photos . There is one on Ancestry a wedding photo of Joseph Harvey and Elizabeth Morris my grandparents married in 1926 Newtown NSW Could Mary Jane have come to Ballarat / Newtown ????
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if you come to Ballarat please let me know great to make contact
miss 616
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How wonderful of you to make contact. I am absolutely delighted. I wanted to reply immediately but will need to revise again before I reply in more detail. And so kind for your offer of help should I visit Ballarat. I will talk again soon.
Regards
Kate
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nice to hear from you I will continue my reserch here
I too need to take all this information in talk soon
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Death
HARVEY Eliza Jane
Father Sior Willie Mother Elizabeth GAVIN
At Ballarat 45 years 1921 Reg#4208
Birth
WILLEY Eliza Jane
Father Josiah William Willey Mother Eliza Mccracken Gavin
At Stawell 1876 Ref#11255
Marriage
HARVEY James born Ballarat West
WILLEY Eliza Jane born Stawell
1893 Reg#4809
Only birth I can see on the indexes.
HARVEY Ruby Eliza
Father James Mother Eliza Jane WILLEY
At Ballarat 1894 Reg#17467
Cheers
Cando
Ruby Eliza Harvey is my Grandmother, which makes Eliza Jane Harvey (nee Willey) my great Grandmother...
I found this recently ....
WILLEY.- Killed in action on 19th July, 1916 (previously reported missing). Josiah Willey, loving husband of Mary and father of Mary, Josiah, Eileen, and Kathleen; only son of the late Josiah Willey, of Stawell, and Mrs Merry, of Ballarat and brother of Mrs J. Harvey and uncle of Ruby; aged 28 years.
Note: he was actually 38 not 28
War service: Egypt, Western Front
Taken on strength, 59th Bn, Ferry Post, 24 May 1916.
Embarked Alexandria to join the British Expeditionary Force, 18 June 1916; disembarked Marseilles, France, 29 June 1916.
Posted missing, 19 July 1916.
Court of Enquiry, held in the field, 29 August 1917, pronounced fate as 'Killed in Action, 19 July 1916'.
Handwritten note on Form B103: 'Presumed Buried in No Man's Land approx 5J90 43 to 5K02.5.1 Sheet Hazebrouck 5A'.
Statement, Red Cross File No 2950410, 3238 Sergeant E.A.O. BAKER, C Company, 59th Bn (patient, Woodcote Park Hospital, England), 12 October 1916: 'Willey was hanging, badly wounded, on barbed wire in a creek at Armentieres, up to his waist in water. Informant was being carried down wounded and saw this. He got out of his stretcher so as to enable the bearers to go to Wiley's assistance ... Informant does not know what happened after that.'
He died on the worst day in Australia's history - In WW1 on The Western Front at the Battle of Fromelles (19th of July 1916), Australia experienced its worst day in history (not just military history). A total of 5,533 casualties (with 2,000 dead) in one night. The catch cry of the battle was "Don't forget me cobber" due to the fact that so many soldiers were left wounded in no man's land. For the 3 days and nights after the battle, men risked their lives to go into no man's land to save 300 of their wounded mates.
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Welcome to RootsChat Marslauncher
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/721963/WILLEY,%20JOSIAH
Josiah WILLEY http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/721963/WILLEY,%20JOSIAH
JM