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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Martin Harmer on Wednesday 23 February 11 02:55 GMT (UK)
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Looking for the ancesters of Henry Kempson (B.1817 Ruddington, Nottingham) as well as any info relating to possible remarriage and any children he may have had after his wife died in 1848.
Henry came to South Australia in 1840. first wife was Elizabeth Parker. He moved to Victoria about 1852 after his wife died and nobody knows what happened to him or were he ended up.
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Not sure which wife you mean whose death preceeded his move to VIC.
This marriage was in VICTORIA
KEMPSON Henry
To YUILLE Ellen
Year: 1856
Reg 2721
Perhaps this is ELLEN's death
KEMPSON Ellen
Father UNKNOWN
Mother UNKNOWN
Age 22
Birth Place LOND
Year 1864
Reg 5605
Sue
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It could be, according to my notes they married in 1856.
Regards.
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First wife (Catherine) died in 1848 giving birth to twins.
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There was a Henry Charles KEMPSON, died in Victoria in 1899 (aged 73/74) whose parents are named as Henry Charles KEMPSON and Sophia BINGLEY. According to the newspaper he was a civil engineer and surveyor. FamilySearch has this KEMPSON/BINGLEY marriage taking place in Birmingham, Warwickshire in 1825. Their son Henry Charles was baptised in 1826 at Birmingham. The notices for the death of his son and wife confirm that he married Henrietta Shurlock LUCKHAM (Victoria 1854). Stated "formerly of Birmingham" but it is not clear whether this refers to Henry or his wife.
Is this just a coincidence with names or have you got two Henrys mixed up? I can't see a marriage to Sophia BINGLEY in Victoria after 1856.
I can see a Henry KEMPSON baptised 1816 at Leake, Nottingham, son of Thomas and Charlotte - is this the one? Do you know when/where your Henry died?
Debra :)
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I just checked the newspapers for a notice regarding the death of ELLEN in case there had been a mistake on the death index about her age.
However, the death notice confirms 22 years as her age at death so I wonder if one or other of the index findings is not your ELLEN.
If she had been married to HENRY in 1856, she would have been only 14 at marriage to be 22 in 1864.
Of course very young brides were not uncommon in those days....... :-\
Sue
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The 1903 electoral roll for Victoria has a Charles Henry (ironmoulder) and Ellen KEMPSON living at 209 Abbottsford Street, Hotham. No way of knowing what the relationship was though.
Debra :)
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This death of a young man gives us the possible "maiden" name for his mother ELLEN while the father is CHARLES HENRY KEMPSON
Perhaps they are the couple on the Electoral Roll
KEMPSON Clive Norman
Kempson Chas Hy
Mother: Ellen PEELER
Age 20
Place Melb E
Year 1915
Reg. 6074
Sue
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As far as I know Henry Kempson snr was born abt 1817, and I do know of Thomas and Charlotte, they had three children
1 boy named Henry (B. abt 1817) and two girls of which only one name is known (Charlotte).
This does seem to be the right family.
Extra info; Thomas Kempson was the local register of births in Ruddington, the family was well known in the area.
Thomas & Charlotte married 03/08/1802
Henry & Catherine married 09/03/1842.
I have info on Henry's two son's Henry and Frederick.
He left S.A. in abt 1852 on board a ship named the William Hill and headed for the goldfields of Castlemaine, thats where we lose him. Apparently there were quiet a few Kempsons in Victoria at the time so trying to find our Henry is proving to be a problem.
Would love to find the ancesters of Thomas and Charlotte as well.
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If you think that your Henry is the one who married Ellen YUILL then you really need to get a copy of the marriage cert to confirm and it should give place of birth and parents. I assume you are having difficulty finding a death for him, but a lot of deaths went unregistered during that period especially if he was on the goldfields.
This is reasonably confusing.
Marriage Bonds from the Nottinghamshire Archdeaconry Archives
Document Reference: AN/MB/232/11
Event: Marriage bond
Place of Event: Sneinton, Nottingham
Date of Event: 13 Jan 1836
Name: KEMPSON, Henry (of Ruddington, Nottinghamshire)
Role: Groom
Age: 21
Status: Bachelor
Literacy: Signed
Maiden Name: WINFIELD, Jane (of Sneinton, Nottinghamshire)
Role: Bride
Age: 21
Status: Spinster
Henry and Jane had a son Thomas Winfield KEMPSON whose birth was registered in 1838. Henry is not with Jane on any census from 1841, and on all censuses until 1891 she lists herself as "married". Normally I would be looking for a transportee, but cannot see anyone who looks likely. If this is your Henry then he would have to have been a bigamist to come to Australia with a wife.
Henry & Catherine married 09/03/1842 I can't see a marriage for him in 1842 - was this in SA?
A bit on father Thomas:
The Leicester Chronicle: or, Commercial and Agricultural Advertiser (Leicester, England), Saturday, November 24, 1838; Issue 1462.
Deaths
On Thursday, Mr KEMPSON, farmer and grazier of Ruddington, Nottinghamshire
Death Reg:
December Quarter 1838
KEMPSON, Thomas
Basford
Vol 15
Page 394
Document Reference: AN/MB/198/105
Event: Marriage bond, Kingston-on-Soar
Place of Event: Kingston-on-Soar
Date of Event: 3 Jun 1802
Name: KEMPSON, Thomas, (grazier of East Leake, Nottinghamshire)
Role: Groom
Age: 23
Occupation: Grazier
Status: Bachelor
Literacy: Signed
Maiden Name: STOKES, Charlotte (of Kingston, Nottinghamshire)
Role: Bride
Henry also had a brother William http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c06/ The "born at the latter place in 1895" should read 1805.
Debra :)
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Henry Kempson married Elizabeth Parker 09/03/1842 in South Aust.
sorry for the mix up with names, working on to many trees at once.
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Ok ;D
Arrival
KEMPSON Henry arrived in SA 1840-02-06 on ship Rajasthan from London 1839-10-27
[Source:7,12]
Death
KEMPSON Elizabeth died on 1848-07-09
aged 31,
buried at Adelaide West Terrace Cemetery.
Is this in line with your findings Martin?
Sue
ADDING
Death of the possible son of JANE and HENRY (above)
Deaths Jun 1898
Kempson, Thomas Winfield
age 59
At Basford vol 7b pg 145
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As far as I know Henry Kempson snr was born abt 1817, and I do know of Thomas and Charlotte, they had three children
1 boy named Henry (B. abt 1817) and two girls of which only one name is known (Charlotte). MARTIN
KEMPSON -
Female Christening: 02 AUG 1807
East Leake, Nottingham, England
CHARLOTTE KEMPSON -
Female Christening: 28 JUL 1811
East Leake, Nottingham, England
HENRY KEMPSON -
Male Christening: 29 MAR 1816
East Leake, Nottingham, England
Parents THOMAS KEMPSON and CHARLOTTE
Sue
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I hope you will not mind my asking, but what is the source of your information that HENRY came to Victoria and married again?
You mention a shipping record regarding him coming to Vic. Does it mention his sons too and give anybody’s age at all?
To date, I am not able, to connect him to any events in Victoria conclusively.
There was possibly a different HENRY KEMPSON who arrived in Victoria from a British port
KEMPSON HENRY
Age26
Date JUL1852
Ship MOUNT STUART ELPHINSTONE
B 003 004
And it may have been this man who married ELLEN YUILLE. Alternatively, you mention the 2 sons of HENRY named HENRY and FREDERICK, but we do not have their birthdates. Could it have been the son Henry who married ELLEN.?
A 10 weeks old child named ROBERT KEMPSON died the same year as ELLEN
KEMPSON Robert
Mother Ellen KEMPSON
Father Not listed
Yr 1864
Reg. 7440
Frederick KEMPSON, the son of your HENRY is sighted in Victoria married to, and having children with, BESSIE JANE DIXON.
Her death and burial and many other details are available
FRED died in WA as you may already know.
KEMPSON FREDERICK
Age 58
Father UNKNOWN
mother UNKNOWN
birthplace MT LOFTY SA
Reg 2183
yr.1905
WA deaths
Also there
KEMPSON CHARLES BINGLEY
age 28
Father HENRY CHARLES
Mother UNK HENRIETTA
birthplace BAIRNSDALE VIC
Reg1901
Yr1897
A newspaper notice tells
...."KEMPSON Charles Bingley, At the Colonial Hospital, Perth, on
the 26th, youngest son of H. C. Kempson, C.E., Kerang, Victoria."...
Perhaps the two burials are uncle and nephew. H enry C harles being the other son (you have named as Henry) of HENRY snr.
Sue
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Charles Bingley KEMPSON is the son of Henry Charles and Henrietta who I detailed earlier. I won't say they weren't related to Martin's Henry because I don't have a clue, but they were from different counties in England.
There was a Henry Charles KEMPSON, died in Victoria in 1899 (aged 73/74) whose parents are named as Henry Charles KEMPSON and Sophia BINGLEY. According to the newspaper he was a civil engineer and surveyor. FamilySearch has this KEMPSON/BINGLEY marriage taking place in Birmingham, Warwickshire in 1825. Their son Henry Charles was baptised in 1826 at Birmingham. The notices for the death of his son and wife confirm that he married Henrietta Shurlock LUCKHAM (Victoria 1854). Stated "formerly of Birmingham" but it is not clear whether this refers to Henry or his wife.
There were more KEMPSONs in SA and Victoria than you can shake a stick at (and I think they were all named Henry ;D).
Debra :)
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Ah well,
So far the only strong link we have been able to make for HENRY to VICTORIA is the activities in VIC of FREDERICK whom Martin says is the son of ELIZABETH and HENRY KEMPSON and, indeed, FREDERICK did name his first child, to include his mother's maiden name
KEMPSON Frederick Parker
Father Frederick
Mother Bessie Jane DIXON
Place LODD
Year 1871
Reg 22037
Martin, has the information we have provided been of any assistance? ;D
Sue
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A little, I aready know about Frederick and his older brother Henry jnr.
Sadly what became of thier father is still a mystery.
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I aready know about Frederick and his older brother Henry jnr.MARTIN
That's interesting.
What can you tell us about HENRY jnr.
We have not been able to discover much to confirm his presence in Victoria
Sue
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Henry jnr spent his time in S. Aust.
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:) :)
That would explain it then
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PROV Wills has digitised wills for
Henry Charles KEMPSON, civil engineer, of Kerang Vic, d 4 Oct 1899; and his wife:
Henrietta Shurlock KEMPSON of Kerang, d 30 June, 1906
He leaves all to his wife. Her will mentions her children:
Augustus Henry KEMPSON, accountant, of Kerang
Harriet Lucy MAXWELL, widow, of Kerang
Amy Laura ROGERS-DAVIDSON, married woman, of Kerang
Henrietta Sophia KEMPSON, spinster, of Kerang
There are also wills for the eldest son Augustus, accountant, d 1925 of Malvern, and daughter Henrietta d 1919 of Armadale.
http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=54
Judith
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You say you are looking for ancestors as well as relatives in Aus. You haven 't had much re his family in the UK to date.
I can give you some census info, which does not show him, but is I am sure of his family.
1841 Colby Gate Lane Ruddington
Charlotte KEMPSON
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Hi, the only info I can see is;
1841 Colby Gate Lane Ruddington
Charlotte KEMPSON
Not knowing this Charlotte's age could be either Henry snr's mother (b.abt.1769) or sister. (b. ?? )
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Does this help?
1841 Census HO/107/863/11
Living at Colby Gate Lane, Ruddington
KEMPSON Charlotte 50 years Farmer Born county
KEMPSON Charlotte 22 years Born county
WALKER Hannah 26 years Female servant Born county
WOOLEDGE Maria 20 years Female servant Not born county
HARKISON William 18 years Male servant Born county
STOKES John 55 years Independent Born county
STOKES Mary 18 years Not born county
1841 rule on age applied ie 10-14=10, 15-19=15, 20-24=20, 40-44=40 etc
Cheers
Cando
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Just to further help avoid duplicating information
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=528623.new
Cheers, JM
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Not duplicating JM...searching in the UK...
Cheers
Cando
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Hi
Henry had one son in England , two in Adelaide that lived,family oral history has it that Elizabeth died having twins that also died.He married Ellen, then another in the south island of New Zealand, where he died at the turn of the century. If you are intersted I can provide some details.I also have some information on Henry's father Thomas.
Regards
Sevendays
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Welcome to RChat, Sevendays...
If you post twice more you will be able to exchange Private Messages (PMs).... You could post two replies on this thread :)
I am not a Kempson descendant, but like several other RChatters, I have tried to help Martin re KEMPSON on several threads. Henry has been "elusive".
You mention another marriage for him and in NZ and some info about his father, Thomas... Perhaps you can give some details BUT please don't mention any living names though as that's a NO NO here at RChat.
Here is a link to one thread ... perhaps you have a copy of Henry's m.c. to Ellen .... I feel sure that Martin would be appreciative of details from that... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529148.msg3842988.html#msg3842988
Cheers, JM
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Hi sevendays,
I would be most interested in any info you have on Henry Kempson snr and his parents.
We do know he left SA and went to Vic. but did not know he ended up in NZ.
Regards Martin
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Hi there,
I note that in March 1860 a Helen KEMPSON aged 40 was a passenger out of Victoria and into Otago/Auckland on the ship Gil Blas. I know that “Helen” and “Ellen” as names that are frequently “interchangeable”
The Argus of 16 March 1860 has the Gil Blas as a brig of 172 tons, the voyage to Auckland, with the captain as J BUTT
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5678982
Of the outward passenger lists that have survived, some are indexed at this link: http://210.8.122.120/indexes/index_search_results.asp
A question of Martin if I may .... Have you obtained a copy Henry Kempson’s marriage to Ellen Yuille, and if so, what details are on it please ?
The NZ marriage would most likely be 19 July 1875, Henry Kempson to Eliza Winter HARVEY. I have not noticed a death for Henry's second wife Ellen/Helen .... A printout of that 1875 marriage should show if Henry was a widower.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Again
I sure Henry wanted to be elusive as he was still married to Jane Winfield back in Nottingham who died in 1891
Henry died 24Th July 1907 Timaru New Zealand.
Henry married Eliza Winter Harvey 1875 Moeraki New Zealand
Henry had married Ellen Yuille in 1856 who died around 1865 and Elizabeth Parker married 1842 and died in 1847.
The only two Australasian children were Elizabeth's Henry and Frederick. Both Henry jn and frederick had large families.
I will send some details on Thomas next time.
Regards
Sevendays
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Hi there,
So Henry married, in the following order :
Jane Winfield
Elizabeth Parker
Ellen Yuille (this would be likely her second marriage)
Eliza Winter Harvey
:) Am I speculating that that his marriages to Elizabeth, Ellen and Eliza were all bigamous... or do you have further information to show that Henry had formally sought to end any of those marriages...
:) Do you have any documents to confirm this is all for the same Henry Kempson ... perhaps marriage certificates :)
Cheers, JM
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First I've heard of Jane Winfield ?
If sevendays is interested I can send her info on Henry snr
I'm very interested in hearing more !
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First I've heard of Jane Winfield ?
If sevendays is interested I can send her info on Henry snr
I'm very interested in hearing more !
Hi Martin,
:) Sorry, but Jane Winfield / Kempson is noted several times on your KEMPSON thread at this link ..... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529148.0.html and http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529147.0.html
:) I am interested in learning of the information on the marriage certificate for Henry Kempson and Ellen Yuille...
Cheers, JM
EDIT TO NOTE I had duplicated the thread posts, and have now corrected that
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Hi there,
A lass named Jane Winfield, daughter of Thomas and Sarah Winfield was baptised at Ruddington, Nottingham, on 16 April 1811. This information should be reliable as it is based on extracted parish records, transcribed by volunteers, diligently transcribing all the parish records from that parish
A lad named Henry Kempson, son of Thomas and Charlotte Kempson was baptised at East Leake, Nottingham, on 29 March 1816. This information should also be reliable, as it too is the work of volunteer transcribers.
In late 1838 or early 1839, a birth for Thomas Winfield KEMPSON at Ruddington, Nottingham ought to have been registered with the civil authorities. A copy of thatbirth certificate ought to show that his parents were Henry and Jane Kempson I say apparently because I do not have a copy of the civil registration for that birth, but I encourage the descendants to contact each other to see who has a copy, or to search for the reference number and follow it up with a purchase of that certificate. I had found the index of the baptism for Thomas Winfield Kempson, with parents as Henry and Jane Kempson, baptised 03 Dec 1838 at Ruddington, Nottingham. Again I note that the baptismal records should be reliable as they are the work of volunteer transcribers. I put that baptismal information on one of Martin’s threads earlier this year.
On census day 1841, Jane Kempson aged 26, and Thos W Kempson aged 2 and John Winfield aged 6 are at the same address as each other, but there is no Henry Kempson at that address. I transcribed that census information for Martin on the thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529148.0.html at reply # 8, with the sightings on the census for 1851, 1861, 1871, etc and I followed up with further information about Thomas Winfield Kempson who if I recall correctly followed his maternal grandfather’s work as the registrar of births, deaths, marriages .
1 Is it likely that the marriage of Henry Kempson and Jane Winfield occurred around the time that civil registrations were being introduced in England?
2. Is it likely that the father of Thomas Winfield Kempson left Jane before the 1841 census and came to Australia.
3. Is it likely that this same Henry Kempson then married in South Australia to Elizabeth Parker .... a copy of the marriage certificate may help resolved that apparent dilemma.
4. Is it likely that this same Henry Kempson then moved from South Australia to Victoria and married the widow, Ellen Yuille, a copy of that marriage certificate should help resolve that apparent dilemma
5. Is it likely that this same Henry Kempson went to NZ without Ellen?
6. Is it likely that this same Henry Kempson married in NZ to Eliza Winter Harvey ... a copy of either the ITM or the printout of the marriage certificate should help resolve that apparent dilemma also ...
7.Is it likely that the this same Henry Kempson is the chap who (OOPS, MISTOOKEN alert see Replies # 46 & 47 on this thread !)......edit to adjust to INSERT "whose son , Thomas Winfield KEMPSON" was baptised at Ruddington in 1838 .... if so he would have been approaching 90 (not 70 as originally typed, but 90) years of age when he died in NZ... I have not found that death on the NZ BDM online index, but I note that sevendays has it as 24th July 1907 at Timaru... A copy of his death certificate should help in that instance too.
My one main theme in my own family history researching is always that for any information to be relied on, the information should be checked against official records. It is not sensible to rely on any submitted record unless it has been checked against information that can be shown to have been independently collected by persons not associated with the family. So for instance information available online from the UK census images is more reliable than information based on reading a book written by someone who has relied on a family member’s recollections. Information about a persons date of birth as found on a birth certificate would be more reliable than information on a school record, or as remembered by a family member even of the same generation, and later generations are only relying on their own memory perhaps of conversations overheard in their childhood.
I apologise again for this long post. BUT finally, who is Henry snr that Martin mentions ....
Cheers, JM
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Seems to be the wrong Henry as he came to south Australia in 1840 !
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Hi Martin,
Seems to be the wrong Henry as he came to south Australia in 1840 !
Your Henry who came to South Australia in 1840 could well be the chap who fathered Thomas Winfield Kempson in 1838... Afterall, Jane Kempson nee Winfield is without a husband on all those census entries transcribed by several RChatters.
Cheers, JM
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From images of electoral rolls for Timaru, Canterbury, New Zealand
1905/6
Eliza Winter KEMPSON, Barnard St, married
Henry KEMPSON, Barnard St, gentleman
1896
Eliza Winter KEMPSON, Timaru, domestic duties, residential
Henry KEMPSON, gentleman, residential
I have carefully checked my transcriptions of those two rolls.
Cheers, JM
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And,
Death of Jane KEMPSON, at age 80 was registered in the Basford district of Nottinghamshire in the second quarter of 1891. The GRO reference for that death certificate would be Vol 7b 158.
1891 - 80 = 1811 thus it is possible that Jane was baptised Jane Winfield 16 April 1811 as mentioned in my reply # 34. Of course, that particular death certificate ought to be obtained to check, verify, validate, confirm etc. I wonder if her son Thomas Winfield Kempson was the informant and/or the registrar.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
That links back to the " Welcome to FreeBMD. FreeBMD is an ongoing project, the aim of which is to transcribe the Civil Registration index of births, marriages and deaths for England and Wales, and to provide free Internet access to the transcribed records. It is a part of the FreeUKGEN family, which also includes FreeCEN (Census data) and FreeREG (Parish Registers). ...."
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps a m.c. for 1838 that may be of interest (ie just after civil registrations were introduced, and the newly appointed registrars were learning the ropes)
Registered at Nottingham in the second quarter of 1838, Ann Winfield to Henry .... GRO Vol 15, pg 811 ..... I note that several of my mid 19th Century forebears used Jane and Ann as interchangeable given names... A copy of that m.c. could perhaps be of interest ....
Cheers, JM
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Well JM,
You have offered a very thorough set of research postings for all invovled.
Do hope Sevendays is back later to help swing the thoughts one way or the other re his own research!
Can't help feeling there has been a serious mis-step somewhere in both Sevenday's and Martin's records for life events of HENRY.
A decent certification somewhere along the line of important events would be persuasive ;)
Sue
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Thanks,
I have one further supporting clue for both Martin and Sevendays. As they seem to be descendants of Henry Kempson, I would hope their interest would extend to sort out the mis-steps with some certificates. After all, family history is meant to be historical fact and not factoid. (Factoid .... as in repeating something often enough so that people tend to believe it must be based on fact, when it is simply a half-truth or a mis-understood overheard piece of backyard gossip shared orally with gestures and similar contributions. Factoid .... another way of saying "Urban Myth" or "Imaginitis"...
As far as I can see, after reading back through several of Martin’s threads, it seems to me (and to others in our household) that Thomas Winfield Kempson who was baptised 3 December 1838 in Nottinghamshire, England as the son of Henry and Jane KEMPSON could well be the son of the Henry Kempson who arrived in South Australia on the vessel Rajasthan. That ship did not depart London until 27 October 1839, nearly 11 months AFTER the baptism of that child. That child stayed with Jane, Jane doesn't seem to have any further children, and this chap is traceable right through the UK census, his marriage, and his adult life....
Edit to add Thomas Winfield KEMPSON's civil birth registration is indexed on the Free site linked earlier, and is GRO ref Vol 15, page 423, for the Basford district Nottinghamshire. Registered in the final quarter of 1838. And,
Someone else looking for information about Henry Kempson ex the Rajasthan, citing the marriage to Jane Winfield, giving details of that marriage as St. Stephen's Church, Sneiton, Nottingham 13 Jan 1836 ...that person was looking back in March 2009, .... and there's a reply too, with additional information http://genforum.genealogy.com/kempson/messages/110.html
perhaps those later marriages were not lawful.... or perhaps Henry and Jane had formally ended their marriage...
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Yes Henry was an interesting guy it took me some years to dig out.
Martin wait till you get to see other issues that faced the earlier generations.
Back to Henry.
I will go looking for my shoe box where I have some certificates.
However from clear memory the most helpful one was the marriage certificate to Ellen Yuille. That showed he was a widower with Elizabeth dying in 1847/ 08 ( he could not remember the exact year) and his own parents being Thomas and Charlotte Kempson of Nottingham. It showed he had only one child, that more or less can be understood. First I guess he did not want to mention Thomas jnr to his new wife. Second, oral family history said Frederick had been fostered out to the schoolteacher in the goldfields ( Castlemaine Victoria where he grew up). I guess Henry wanted to keep the children count down. He could not escape Henry jnr. Henry jnr was with Henry on the goldfields before returning to Adelaide to live. Both Henrys signed a petition against the mining license tax.
There is an early Adelaide newspaper story about both Henry jnr and Frederick when they were year young being lost to the bush probably around 1848, being found and rescued by a local aboriginal tribe.
I get back when I find the shoe box.
Regards
Sevendays
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Hi Sevendays,
Definitely agree that this chap was an interesting guy...
From the m.c. for Henry to Ellen .... when it is convenient to you, would you please confirm what is recorded on that document .... I am anticipating that the certificate records responses from both the bride and the groom supplied to the clergy when the couple approached him with the view to marry. I have found that the Victorian marriage certificates are very informative, and the following list may be of help with your reply.
:) Its reference numbers
:) Where and when was the service
:) the denomination
:) if by licence or banns
:) The given and surnames of both the bride and the groom including any previous names
:) Whether they were bachelor/spinster/widower/widow (and the date of death of any former husband or wife)
:) the stated ages of the bride and the groom
:) The names and ages of children of each previous marriage (including any deceased)
:) The birthplaces, occupations, ages, of the bride and groom
:) The then present and the usual addresses of the bride and groom
:) The names of each parent of the bride and the groom, including the maiden names of their mothers
:) The occupations of each of the fathers of the bride and the groom
:) The names of the witnesses
:) Did any signed with their mark, if so, which ones... the bride, groom, any of their witnesses,
Also, Sevendays, from Henry's 1907 death cert in NZ, does it confirm any earlier marriage or give his parentage and / or his birth place .... I have not found that d.c. listed at the online NZ BDM
PS, now that you have reached 3 posts you should be able to send private messages to any other RChatter.
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Found one copy of original church record and.one certificate.
1- Church record from Congregational Church Adelaide signed by Thomas Quinton pastor dated Wednesday morning march 9Th 1842 "Henry Kempson and Elizabeth Parker after due notice were married "
2- Certificate registered by John Go minister Church of Scotland Pitfield dated 20Th July 1856
"Henry Kempson widower July 1847 or 1848 1 living child 2 dead birth place Nottinghamshire profession- stockkeeper - age 39 of Bonny Yallock - parents Thomas Kempson - farmer and Charlotte Stokes
Ellen Yuille widow 18th March 1854 - no children -maiden name Whittington birth place Liverpool England- age 37 of Bonny Yallock parents Henry Whittington capenter and Catherine Hughes"
So that confirms the direct link back to Nottingham and leaves the little problem of Jane and Thomas jnr back in Ruddington and why Henry left. As I understand Adelaidle being a non convict colony was a popular location for wealthy family to locate a son who had a problem. The Stokes were well established farmers in Kingston on Soar ( I have been to the the Stokes manor which is now Nottinghams University's dairy research school) and Thomas senior mother had been very well connected and his uncle John Kempson was a seriously wealthy London druggist and massive landholder in Herefordshire. However, I have now knowledge of the reason why he needed to do a runner from England.
Regards
Sevendays
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Sevendays I thankyou for that detailed info and I confirm that many wealthy familie despatched difficult situations to the colonies.
I presume there was no formal ending of his first marriage but that he chose to overlook it when he married in Sth Aust in 1842 for afterall eventhe common law conventions that may default to the seven years rule for colonial 'de facto divorces ' could not apply as Thomas Winfield Kempson was born late 1838
I presume you have found the book that Martin has found re the policeman from Nottinghamshire and Tee Tree Gully.
Certificates are great resources.
Cheers JM.....
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Hi JM
One little error in reply #34?
7. Is it likely that the this same Henry Kempson is the chap who was baptised at Ruddington in 1838 ....
All in all, I am convinced it was the same Henry with four wives, and he was not very truthful to say the least.
Essie
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Hi Essie,
Seems so, I will adjust ... it ought to read,
7. Is it likely that this same Henry Kempson is the chap whose SON, Thomas Winfield KEMPSON, was baptised at Ruddington in 1838
Many thanks,
PS, modified, hope it still reads OK
Cheers, JM
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The death of Ellen KEMPSON in Victoria in 1864 has also not been confirmed as being Henry's wife Ellen YUILLE. Both the indexes and newspaper notice give her age as 22. Another certificate which would be interesting to see.
Debra :)
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.....All in all, I am convinced it was the same Henry with four wives, and he was not very truthful to say the least.
Essie
Errrr ...... ;D ;D ;D Apparently he was a policeman for some of his life in Sth Australia ! The NZ electoral rolls have him as a "Gentleman" ....
I feel that Sevendays research is well documented, with many other certificates and other validating documentation. Hopefully Martin will have other certificates to offer Sevendays own obviously detailed research which has involved time and energy and travel across the globe.
I agree Debra, particularly as I can see that there's a possible KEMPSON female aged 40 (Helen v Ellen) outward to NZ in 1860 (ish)....
Cheers, JM
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All sounds promising and on the right track, look forward to viewing documents sevendays has even photo's if has any.
Even i have some info on the Kempson's maybe interested in.
Regards Martin
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The death of Ellen KEMPSON in Victoria in 1864 has also not been confirmed as being Henry's wife Ellen YUILLE. Both the indexes and newspaper notice give her age as 22. Another certificate which would be interesting to see.
Debra
I would think that this certificate would have been a foundation stone in the research really as this marriage and her death were the first supposed Victorian events and, therefore, pivotal to further research.
We can only hope (as it seems you have not bought it), perhaps Sevendays has it as part of his own work and you will thus be able to view it, Martin.
look forward to viewing documents sevendays has MARTIN
Sue
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Of course I agree re that and any cert that could be one of the foundation stones....
Martin
Would you please let us all know what certificates you hold on this line ...this info would be especially helpful for advancing your reseachings through swapping validated info .........
Cheers JM
All sounds promising and on the right track, look forward to viewing documents sevendays has even photo's if has any.
Even i have some info on the Kempson's maybe interested in.
Regards Martin
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Hi
Martin I have not seen the book you mentioned and would be interested in any photo of Henry.
I have some photos of Frederick as well as a monument inside the belltower of Kingston on Soar Church listing the Stokes (and Thomas).
I am new to this so how do we get to see them ? Is there a method to scan and attach ?
Regards
Fred
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Hi there,
As I understand it, (and I could well be wrong), the book was written/published in the mid 1990's and it is in the genealogy's reference section of the Tee Tree Gully Library.
Here is a shrunken link that may help identify the (52 page) book .... (A Policeman's Lot is not a happy one : the Kempson's of Nottingham and Tea Tree Gully, by S M Barnett).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dwm/
Cheers, JM
edit to add this PS From the RChat Sth Australian Resources Board at this link are details about Sth Australian BDM records http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,280572.0.html
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Hi there,
The info below is drawn from an online INDEX, so it would need to be validated against the actual certificates, for validation and for additional information on those documents (occupations, witnesses, fuller addresses, signatures, and all the usual vital family history clues, including verifying that the actual indexed item exists, and the transcribed index details have been "interpreted" correctly)
Rosa Ellen Kempson married 13 October 1897 at the residence of Mr Kempson at Tea Tree Gully.
The marriage was registered at Highercombe, South Australia. Rosa married Frank Harmer, whose father was recorded as John Harmer. Rosa’s father was recorded as Henry Kempson. Ref Vol 193, Pg 161.
Rosa Ellen Kempson was born 20 August 1874 at Darley, Sth Australia. Her birth was registered at Adelaide, Sth Australia. Her parents were recorded as Henry Kempson and Catherine Jane Crowle. Ref Vol 140 Pg 205.
Catherine Jane Crowle married Henry Kempson 3 May 1865 at the residence of Mrs Crowle, Campbelltown, Sth Australia. Henry’s father was recorded as Henry Kempson and Catherine’s father was recorded as James Crowle.
The marriage was registered at Adelaide Sth Australia. Ref Vol 62 Pg 40.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Sevendays,
Perhaps these threads may help expand your research
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,528623.10.html (Crowle and Harmer mentioned)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,519267.0.html (Stokes and Kempson mentioned)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,522767.0.html (Stokes)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,524132.0.html (Henry Snr's first Australian marriage)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,528623.0.html (Ellen Yuille's marriage to Kempson)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529148.0.html (Jane Winfield and son Thomas W Kempson)
There may be other threads that I have missed, some of those may be linked within the above threads, and I presume Martin will have better knowledge.
Do you have the 1907 NZ death cert for Henry (husand of Eliza Winter Harvey) .... ?
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Thank you both.
This is very helpful
Regards
Sevendays
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Thanks for your Thank You Sevendays, it is much appreciated.
The search options here at RChat are usually very helpful, and those linked threads are full of references for so many BDM certificates. Of course where would anyone be without a close check and careful reading of each of those certificates which contain so much information of significance for family history seekers.
It is my opinion that wise selection of which certificate to obtain is the foundation stone for any quality research to advance. I feel sure that you would agree that there's some further pennies to be spent to expand the research further, and it is simply a matter of deciding which certificate will give the most "new" information to benefit your own line of research.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
The info below is drawn from an online INDEX, so it would need to be validated against the actual certificates, for validation and for additional information on those documents (occupations, witnesses, fuller addresses, signatures, and all the usual vital family history clues, including verifying that the actual indexed item exists, and the transcribed index details have been "interpreted" correctly)
Rosa Ellen Kempson married 13 October 1897 at the residence of Mr Kempson at Tea Tree Gully.
The marriage was registered at Highercombe, South Australia. Rosa married Frank Harmer, whose father was recorded as John Harmer. Rosa’s father was recorded as Henry Kempson. Ref Vol 193, Pg 161.
Rosa Ellen Kempson was born 20 August 1874 at Darley, Sth Australia. Her birth was registered at Adelaide, Sth Australia. Her parents were recorded as Henry Kempson and Catherine Jane Crowle. Ref Vol 140 Pg 205.
Catherine Jane Crowle married Henry Kempson 3 May 1865 at the residence of Mrs Crowle, Campbelltown, Sth Australia. Henry’s father was recorded as Henry Kempson and Catherine’s father was recorded as James Crowle.
The marriage was registered at Adelaide Sth Australia. Ref Vol 62 Pg 40.
Cheers, JM
Sorry to be a fusspot but if the information has been taken from a subscription based website it seems to me that the subscribers are not getting value for money.
South Australia adopted the English system of bdm registration and the certificates lack detail whereas the Eastern colonies [states] followed the more comprehensive system like that in Scotland. However the indexes give so much more information that other states but only the trade of the groom would be additional on the certificate. Have a read of the link below. The Registrations District boundaries changed over time and at one stage I think there were 22 districts which grew from the original two. The registration number is expressed as District/Book/Page.
Info on all South Australian Certificates
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,368744.0.html
From my resource -
HARMER Frank 32 years Status Single Father John HARMER
KEMPSON Rosa Ellen 23 years Status Single Father Henry KEMPSON
13 Oct 1897
At the residence of Mr Kempson Tea Tree Gully Hig 193/161
KEMPSON Henry 22 years Status Single Father Henry KEMPSON
CROWLE Catherine Jane 22 years Status Single Father James CROWLE
3 May 1865
At the residence of Mrs Crowle, Campbelltown Ade 62/40 [This marriage was registered twice in the district register with the other registration being Ade 62/84 - the 2nd registration has Henry's status as not recorded or not known]
Cando
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Do you have the 1907 NZ death cert for Henry (husand of Eliza Winter Harvey) .... ?
SEVENDAYS,
In reply #56 Jm asks you this.
Previously too I think there has been a question along the same lines.
Are you able, please, to answer.
Sue
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Just to confirm, I have not found the registration for Henry's 1907 death at the following link
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
And from earlier in this thread, at reply #30
......Henry died 24Th July 1907 Timaru New Zealand.......
Cheers, JM
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As I recall I found it after referral in the local NZ newspaper.
Regards
Sevendays
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that would explain it then
The Timaru Herald is online, but at present the digitised historical issues cover from 11 June 1864 - 31 December 1900
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
I understand that the digitisation process is an on-going one, so perhaps later this year the issues for 1901-1910 will be available online.
Cheers, JM
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Well,
advance apologies if I am missing a point here, but why is the death NOT indexed in the normal way that a death in that year would be?
Are you suggesting a misprint or such is concealing the index entry?
Sue
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Also wondering the same as Sue,
particularly as I have not found a re-marriage for Eliza Winter, nor her death recorded on that site.
Cheers, JM
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A NZ death for 85 y.o. Eliza Jane KEMPSON in 1910.
reg #1910/5662
The age would certainly 'fit'.
Essie
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Yes Essie and she is buried in the same cemetery as a Henry KEMPSON who was buried in 1906 Why isn't his death reg on the NZ bdm?
I am rushed at the mo, so will return and give the link to the burial info.
Cando
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Search here....photos included.
http://www.timaru.govt.nz/cemetery-database2.html
Cheers
Cando
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Well found Cando
PS
I have started a thread on the NZ board asking for help re Henry KEMPSON's NZ d.c.
Henry was aged 90 at his death in 1906 as per Cando's good work ....
Eliza was aged 85 at her death in 1910 as per Essie's good work ....
And along the way through many threads, there's all the usual RChatters, so many of us all helping the thread's original poster.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=540481.msg3941566
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;)
Hi All,
I have received some very kind advice via PM .... the following will have a familiar ring to several ;D It is possible that some of the quarterly returns are not online, (I suppose ....missed/not lodged/lost in the system etc) and thus an email to NZ BDM may be able to confirm if that applies for in this case... Also noted from the PM It would be sensible to include a copy of the newspaper cutting.
I will leave the thread on the NZ boards open over the weekend, (just) in case (of course) ;D
Sevendays, I know that several of us here on the Aussie Boards are aware that if a quarterly return has been missed, that there would be the local registration to fall back on, and it may well include the names of Henry's parents and also Henry's place of birth, and hopefully info about the earlier marriages. There's also the funeral director's records, and the church records for the burial .... And the newspaper cutting may well be found in a good family history library in NZ .... ;D
Many of the administrative procedures for NSW are similar to those in NZ, particularly in that pre WWI era.
Cheers, JM
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;D
Speculating of course but ....
Elizabeth Winter married James Harvey 1 January 1843 at Adelaide .... again from a commercial online index, so some details have not made that index, which shows Vol 1 and pg 28...
Cheers, JM
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Further speculations
1870 at age 45, a James Harvey died, registered in Victoria with reference 7479....
Cheers, JM
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Speculating of course but ....
Elizabeth Winter married James Harvey 1 January 1843 at Adelaide .... again from a commercial online index, so some details have not made that index, which shows Vol 1 and pg 28...
Cheers, JM
Not this Elizabeth HARVEY nee WINTER.
James HARVEY and Elizabeth had 10 children in SA by 1867, and were living at Meadows from 1860 onwards.
James HARVEY died at Meadows in 1895
Elizabeth HARVEY died at Meadows in 1915.
Essie
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Hello...
From the NZ BDM Deaths fiche:
Folio number 1906/1930 Henry KEMPSON
1906 = Year of death
1930 = Place of registration (in this case Timaru)
If you intend to purchase a copy of the death certificate it's best to order a "printout".
http://www.dia.govt.nz/Services-Births-Deaths-and-Marriages-Get-a-Death-Marriage-Civil-Union-or-Name-Change-Certificate?OpenDocument
Regards
Beg
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Hi All
Thanks Beg I feel sure that the print out partly confirms IF this is the elusive Henry ...... As always it is the primary records that need to be checked and as one of the many RChatters who have offered advice and looked up indexes I would like to think that some pennies will be saved up and then expended on some certificates for there are many mentions in the threads for those reference numbers on those certificates.
Cheers JM
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I feel sure that the print out partly confirms IF this is the elusive Henry ...... As always it is the primary records that need to be checked
Hello JM...
I've most likely got the wrong end of the stick :-) but you said you were "looking for a death certificate reference".
A printout is a photocopy of the death register entry. It contains all of the info used to complete the death certificate plus (sometimes) extra info not included on the death certifcate. To order it you just need the folio number i.e 1906/1930 and $20.
Isn't that what you were originally looking for or have I missed something.
Regards
Beg
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Sorry Beg,
You have NOT got the wrong end of the stick, my poor wordsmith skills is at fault. Of course, the NZ print out is the best option. I was using "certificates" and "primary records" in the broader sense, to cover the registrations of BDM events in Henry's life across England, and the various colonies in the British Empire.... The NZ print outs have always been my preferred choice for NZ's primary records.
I apologise for my poor wordsmith skills.
If there had been any BDM events in this chap's life that were registered in NSW BDM then I would suggest for transcripts from licenced transcription agents. And of course, when the Victorian BDM events I and others have suggested downloading the images from the PROV. And of course where there are Nottinghamshire primary records, then the GRO references point towards those primary records.
So, yes Beg, I too have found that the printout would be the better option for that NZ d.c., for not only are those print outs usually more informative but also they are cheaper.
Thanks Beg, the fault is definitely at my end of the stick, for , I also used "partly confirms IF this is the elusive Henry" because it is my opinion that the 1875 marriage in NZ of Henry and Eliza Winter Harvey would also be a "must have" primary record, and hopefully a print out of that would contain useful information also.
Cheers, JM
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Hi all,
From Martin's OP of 23 Feb 2011:
" Looking for the ancesters of Henry Kempson (B.1817 Ruddington, Nottingham) as well as any info relating to possible remarriage and any children he may have had after his wife died in 1848.
Henry came to South Australia in 1840. first wife was Elizabeth Parker. He moved to Victoria about 1852 after his wife died and nobody knows what happened to him or were he ended up. "
Well, over the past several months, there has been great advances in Martin’s quest, with frequent suggestions from many RChatters, particularly towards obtaining the official certificates/transcripts/print outs for certifying/verifying/confirming/gaining additional clues/ of Henry’s life.
Without re-visiting all the threads that involve that searching, Here is my current scribbled conjectures, for without the primary records, this is all only conjecture. .
Hopefully, these conjectures help both Martin and Sevendays too. I have not included any indexed references, as that would be duplicating so much of the efforts of all the RChatters.
Again I stress that the chronological list below is of course only a very brief SPECULATIVE summary. Again, my CONJECTURES that any of these events MAY BE (and of course any of these may not be) significant dates in Henry’s life.
I know if these people were in my own tree, that I would be saving up my pennies to obtain those records, and that if there was any conflicting information on them, I would be asking for further help from RChatters :
:) 1816 Henry's baptism records his parents as Thomas and Charlotte Kempson. Further, those parish records may show there were other children for that couple, and that Charlotte’s nee name was Stokes.
:) 1836, marriage for Henry to Jane Winfield, and a child of that marriage was Thomas Winfield Kempson. This marriage pre-dates Henry coming to South Australia. At present, no formal ending of that marriage has come to light until the 1891 death of Jane in England.
:) 1842 marriage for Henry to Elizabeth Parker, in South Australia. Two boys survived their infancy, their names are recorded as Henry and Frederick. Elizabeth died in 1848.
:) 1856 Marriage for Henry to Ellen Yuille, she had also been married previously. This marriage was in Victoria. At present, no formal ending to that marriage has come to light.
:) 1875, Marriage for Henry to Eliza Winter Harvey. This marriage was in New Zealand.
:) 1906 Henry died in New Zealand.
:) 1910 Eliza Kempson died in New Zealand.
Fingers crossed that between Martin and Sevendays, most of these primary records are at hand already, or already on order, including now the 1906 d.c. printout.
Cheers, JM
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I apologise for my poor wordsmith skills.
Hello JM...
No apology needed as no offence was taken :-)
All the best
Beg
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Thanks to all for all the help, now for the task of collecting any extra certs, photo's ect and putting it all together.
I also look forward to further contact with sevendays.
regards Martin
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Hi Martin,
Thanks to all for all the help, now for the task of collecting any extra certs, photo's ect and putting it all together.
I also look forward to further contact with sevendays.
regards Martin
Thank you.
Martin,
It is simply so good to now know that you have already collected some of those certificates that so many RChatters have given references for.
Your task for collecting any extra certificates could be a lot easier if
:) you were to briefly list here at RChat the ones you currently have, and
:) the ones you are expecting to order directly from the various BDM offices (GRO, PROV, NZ etc).
In that way, not just sevendays, but anyone using any search engine either now or at some future time will hopefully come across your threads and recognise the many names mentioned by so many RChatters that you have so kindly thanked here today. You could well find other descendants are also researching on the same Henry Kempson, but are yet to find RChat. ;D
Cheers, JM
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I am the author of A Policemans lot is not a happy one, the story of the Kempsons of Nottingham, Darley and Tea Tree Gully. When I moved to TT Gully in 1979 I began a long search for information. Happy to share information where I have it.. Now living at (*), email (*)
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Welcome to Rootschat.
The person who started this thread was last active at RChat on 10 November 2011. However, there are other RChatters who have started threads about the same family and they have been posting quite recently.
Here’s some links to some threads that may help you make contact with those other RChatters:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,564459.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,563919.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,563532.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546766.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,516159.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529148.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,529147.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,519267.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,516358.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,517823.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,520412.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,519478.0.html
You will need to make three posts to be able to access all the functions provided at RChat, so the easiest way to achieve that is simply to reply twice more on this thread. Your reply can be as short as “Hello” or “Thanks” or similar.
Many Cheers,
JM (not a Kempson family researcher)
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Hi, I am interested in tracking down a copy of "A Policemans lot is not a happy one, the story of the Kempsons of Nottingham, Darley and Tea Tree Gully". I am related to Henry Kempson via Frederick; Robert Robertson married Minnie Kempson joining the Robertson/Kempson lines :)
I have really enjoyed discovering and reading through this thread as it has shown the family stories we had been told of the Kempson line to be based on myth & legend.
cheers :)
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Hi
My father is now two putts away from his 100 th birthday and the younger brother of Minnie.
He still regularly mentions to me about Minnie , Rita and their love of ball room dancing ,moving the dining room table to make room having friends over Minnie playing the piano.
Regards
Sevendays
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In my family tree I have my great Aunty "Catherine (nee Davy) marrying an "Augustus Kempson" of Nottingham (son of Henry Charles Kempson) in 1879.
Would this be relation to this group?
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Hi again Sevendays, if you are out there somewhere I would like to chat again about the Kempson's.
Regards MS