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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Topic started by: tewilso on Sunday 27 February 11 13:03 GMT (UK)
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I am attempting to verify a connection between my 6th-grandfather removed, Joseph Howe (a friend of George Washington) who immigrated to Virginia. Joseph Howe purportedly was 2nd cousin to General George Augustus Howe, 3nd Viscount, General William Howe, 5rd Viscount Howe and Admiral Richard Howe, 4th Viscount. On this side of the pond, family history has it that he was the son of one James Howe, who was born in 1704 and buried at Binsted on April 6, 1728, near his mother Ruperta Howe, buried at Binsted in July 27th, 1741.
Any information would be most appreciated!
Thomas
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You do not give a birthplace, birthyear or emigration date for Joseph Howe.
What parish records did you find relating to what you believe to be 'your' Joseph Howe?
Pauline
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The following Buriels are recorded at Binstead
17 Oct 1701-Rachel HOWE
29 Sept 1709-The Hon: General (no name given) HOW
15 Apr 1721-Emanuel HOW
06 Apr 1728-James HOWE
27 Jul 1741-Mrs Ruperta HOWE
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Hi Tewilso
you left the chatterbox Before I could say You joseph Howe is on a tree on Ancestry as the Son Of James Howe and Daily With James parents Mother Ruberta Hughes born 1667 Cumberland
Daughter of
Rupert ( Prine of the Rhine) Wittelsbach Born 1619 bohemia Czech Republic
And
Margaret Hughes Norn 1630 England
There is a lot more and also Pictures of Rupert Margagret and Emanuel Howe
Nadine
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Prince Of Rhine Sorry mis typed lol
Nadine
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Dear all,
Thank you very much. However, I do have the information that Nadine and Kimbrey kindly supplied. However, there are no documented source for a link between Joseph and James listed on Ancestry. The Binsted burials are documented apparently at Binsted's Church of the Holy Cross.
There seems to be an oral history that Joseph was born in 1727 in England (do not know where) to James Howe. Joseph Howe, in search of adventure in the New World, immigrated to Massachusetts in 1749 or there about to be with his 2nd-cousin General George Augustus Howe, 3rd Viscount Howe, who was subsequently killed at the Battle of Ticonderoga in 1758. Supposedly Joseph then migrated south to Virginia, and made the acquaintance of George Washington during an early survey of western Virginia (this is documented in the US Library of Congress records). I wonder if there might be any British Army records showing Joseph Howe as under General Howe's command?
James Howe's sister (Joseph's aunt), Sophia Arabella Howe, died early from a broken heart that was documented in the Letters to and from Henrietta, the Countess of Suffolk. I suspect that Joseph was in need of some fresh air from society scandals (his grandmother mother Ruperta was also the illegitimate daugther of Prince Rupert of the Rhine). Supposedly he made two voyages to Massachusetts before staying permanently and marrying one Eleanor Dunbar, whom he met on board and who originated from Scotland. In fact, one Howe family is descended from Henry Carey, illegitimate son of Henry VIII and Mary Boleyn.
Thomas
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I might add that the current Earl Howe, wishes me to keep him informed of any significant progress. Nice man.
Thomas
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The tree has Joseph as Born 1727 Effingham Surrey Leatherhead Might Help
Nadine
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there are no documented source for a link between Joseph and James listed on Ancestry.
I would be looking for some evidence in primary sources if at all possible.
None of the sources that I can find for the Baronets Howe indicate that James had a son. Did he leave a will? Is Joseph mentioned in any other wills? Apart from family hearsay or stories, do you have any evidence of the connection between James and Joseph?
The 1709 burial in Binsted is for Emanuel How(e).
Nell
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Dear Nell,
Thank you for your expert advice. Ruperta Howe did not leave a will according to another online expert who informed me that the detailed pedigree of the Howe descendants of Prince Rupert is given by Frederick Arthur Crisp, The Visitation of England and Wales: Notes, , volume 13 (1919). Apparently, Crisp's own copy is be found in the Family History Library at 942 D23hn or on Microfilm 824,461.
On another note, I did uncover some documents pertaining to the Howe's in that time period on file at the University of Nottingham (being in the States, I won't be able to personally consult them this year). The document is entitled: Papers of the Smith-Bromley Family of East Stoke, Nottinghamshire 1305-1876. Reference GB 19 Sm. Of particular interest to me is the addendum contained therein entitled: Account of the relations and estates of Mary Howe, Sm 306 c1744.
Mary Howe was the 1st cousin of James Howe, whose common grandmother was Ruperta Howe. Sm 306 may therefore hold some fascinating clues to the death of James Howe, and perhaps may mention his son, Joseph, if James had issue.
There are a number of other Sm's available in the Papers of Smith-Bromley that refer to payments to Ruperta Howe (in her last year of life 1740-1741), as well as a number entitled: "Howe vs. Bromley".
Would you happen to know how I might obtain the above document/s if my email to the U-Nott library is ignored?
Best wishes,
Thomas Wilson
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Correction - the common grandfather of Mary Howe and James Howe was John Grubham Howe of Langar.
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According to the information about this particular set of papers on the A2A site,
Photocopies and photographic copies can be supplied for educational use and private study purposes only depending on the condition of the documents.
We'll have to hope that they are in good condition. Details of the service provided, the submission form (necessary to complete!) and costs can be found via this page:
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/reprographics/introduction.aspx
Frustrating - I can find the later generations of the Howes and references to Rupert , but the middle part is distinctly vague. :(
Nell
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Thanks for the link! I've contacted them and will be excited to learn their response.
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I've deduced that the Mary Howe in question, was the daughter of William Howe, brother of James Howe. Mary Howe would have been nearly the same age as her 1st cousin, my sought-after Joseph Howe. So this implies the "Relations and Estate of Mary Howe" referred to earlier, would have a higher probability of listing her only living 1st cousin. Mary Howe married on 18th August 1747 Sir George Smith Bt, later Bromley.
In addition, there is another compendium that refers to settling the estate of Ruperta Howe (Mary and Joseph Howe's grandmother) shortly after her death in 1741: "Particulars of the Forest of Alice Holt, Woolmer co. S'ton, and houses and lodges thereto belonging held from the Crown under a Grant to E.S. Howe Sm 1113 1742".
If Joseph Howe was indeed who we believe he is, he undoubtedly will be listed in Sm 1113. I am awaiting word from the U-Nottingham Library.
Thomas
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Some good news ... the above-mentioned documents at U-Nottingham from the Papers of the Smith-Bromley Family, were available for photocopying and are being sent to me.
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"The Papers of the Smith-Bromley Family" GB 19 SM (U-Nottingham) contained an addendum "Miss Howe's Case" SM1112. In the latter, it is stated that both James and Emanuel Howe died without issue. I kept up the search however; I was surprised to have found in the "Will of John How, Gentleman of Woodford (and of St. Bartholomew by the Exchange) (1747)" from the National Archives (Canterbury). Remarkably, in the first paragraph, he disinherits his eldest son, Joseph How, for excessive spending. His other sons John and Robert, witnessed the will, but Joseph did not. I have found the baptismal records of the the three sons - St. Bartholomew by the Exchange. Joseph was born 14 May, 1704. According to family lore in the States, our Joseph Howe immigrated to Boston imn 1747 - the same year that Joseph Howe was disinherited!
I believe have found the brother's will, John How, Gentleman of Romford 1775. In it, the brother Robert witnesses the will of his brother John, but not Joseph. The John How of Woodford, I believe is the son of John How, Gentleman of Somerset-Earnley, the grand-nephew of Sir George Howe, 2nd Baronet. I surmise that Robert How could also be the grandfather of Edward James Gambier Howe (Howes of Chart Place). I would very much like to obtain the pedigree of these Howes, to verify my hypotheses. I have requested the
"Papers of the Gambier Howe Family" from Kent County Archives, in hopes of finding mention of Joseph. Thank you.
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Are there any more information for Joseph How (Howe).
I am attempting to verify a connection between my 6th-grandfather removed, Joseph Howe (a friend of George Washington) who immigrated to Virginia. Joseph Howe purportedly was 2nd cousin to General George Augustus Howe, 3nd Viscount, General William Howe, 5rd Viscount Howe and Admiral Richard Howe, 4th Viscount. On this side of the pond, family history has it that he was the son of one James Howe, who was born in 1704 and buried at Binsted on April 6, 1728, near his mother Ruperta Howe, buried at Binsted in July 27th, 1741.
Any information would be most appreciated!
Thomas
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Thank you. Well, I've recently obtained the services of a Ms. Potter, a UK genealogist specializing in Somerset and Wiltshire families to pursue two possibilities.
In addition to the Joseph Howe, son of John Howe of Woodford, Essex, who was disinherited in 1747, I have also read on the British history website (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=115493) concerning the owners of several manors in Netheravon in Wiltshire, included St. Amand’s Manor, owned by the 1st-3rd Baronet Howe of Compton (Sir John, Richard, and Richard Howe) from whom ownership passed to Richard's cousin, John Howe, 1st Lord Chedworth. There is mentioned another manor, called Netheravon at Haxton, that was owned by a Joseph Howe and his wife Elizabeth; they sold this manor to the Duke of Beaufort in 1739. If this Joseph Howe was related to the Baronet Howe of Compton, and either he or a possible son immigrated to the colonies, that would close the loop of the claimed connection. The timeline and claimed ancestry fit. Also, my Joseph Howe's first two children were named Joseph and Elizabeth (the same as his parents if I am correct about the lineage). I cannot find a will for a Joseph Howe at the Prerogative Court of Canterbury. Also, I've not been able to find a will for Robert Howe of Pyrgo Park (sibling of the disinherited Joseph Howe) nor have I received a reply to a letter sent to a descendent of Henry Gambier Howe of the White House in Suffolk (Robert's descendent), who was last listed at that address in 1984. My brother and I will visit the gravesite of Joseph Howe in Sunnyside, VA this summer - our 6th grandfather. Best, Tom
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Thank you for your respones. I would ask that you please keep me posted as what you find out. I am also hoping that you and your brother have a nice trip to Va. Joseph is also my 6th grandfather.
God Bless
Nell
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Here is a link detailing the Howe-Carey-Tudor lineage, it shows John Grubham Howe to be directly decended from Henry VIII. http://knol.google.com/k/descendants-of-king-henry-viii-of-england#
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Thank you for the web site, but my question is, are there any records for James and for Joseph, also for James death and marriage, if there was one and for Joseph birth, any records at all for James ???
God Bless
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I am guessing but no one has any proof that Joseph Howe is the son of James Howe.
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I'm afraid there is no evidence ... see my earlier note about Smith-Bromley papers from U-Nottingham - James Howe died without issue. I also failed to obtain the will of Robert Howe, brother of an English Joseph Howe (born in 1704) who was disinherited by his father John Howe in his will. It's been a few months for me now however since I've investigated further.
Thank you.
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I remain intrigued by the fact that the date and location of James Howe's burial (provided by Little Nell in "Binsted Burials' on RootsChat on June 30 2005 - that James Howe was buried at Binsted in 6 April 1728) was not noted by Crisp or anywhere so far as I can tell (it's been a few months now since I've reviewed my notes however). Does anyone know where the Binsted burial document listing James Howe might be obtained? Also, would anyone suggest the best sources to search for a marriage and any subsequent issue of James Howe??
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Some addional information. I have not contact them as of yet.
::)Dear Ms Jackson
Thank you for your enquiry dated 9th June 2011.
Because the events in question (birth, marriage and death of James How) occurred prior to the introduction of civil registration (in 1837) the best place to research is the International Genealogical Index (at www.familysearch.com).
If you enter the details you know with regard to James How(e), a list of possible matches will be provided. The amount of detail provided varies, but usually provides you with the date of the event, and the location.
I hope you are able to find some useful information on the IGI. Good luck with your project.
Kind regards.
Yours sincerely,
Michelle Goodman
Archives and Local Studies Assistant
City of Westminster Archives Centre
archives@westminster.gov.uk
www.westminster.gov.uk/archives
10 St Ann's Street, London SW1P 2DE
020-7641 5180
020-7641 5179
A wide range of local and family history materials are offered for sale through our Local History Shop, including books and pamphlets, maps, postcards, notelets and greeting cards: www.westminster.gov.uk/libraries/archives/publications.cfm
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Thank you. The Binsted parish registers are available from the Title Parish registers
for Binstead, near Alton, 1653-1904
Authors Church of England. Parish Church of Binstead (near Alton, Hampshire) (Main Author)
Notes Microfilm of original records in the Hampshire County Record Office, Winchester.
~~~~~~~~
Hampshire Record Office no.: IM67/PR8
Subjects England, Hampshire, Binstead (near Alton) - Church records
Format Manuscript (On Film)
Language English
Publication Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1982
Winchester, England : Hampshire Record Office, 1992
Physical on 2 microfilm reels and 3 microfiche ; 35 mm.
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Yes, I verified the burial dates (along with an memorial inscription) at Binsted for Rachel, Emanual, James (April 1728), Gen. Emanual Scrope Howe, and Ruperta Howe from the Hampshire County Archives (paid research). I then inquired if there were any records of a marriage for James Howe (between 1720-1728) or any births to James Howe (1720-1730) and the answer I received was NO. I was considering the very unlikely possibility that there may have been a son of James Howe, my American (VA) Joseph Howe as claimed elsewhere on the Internet.
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I am likewise trying to find a connection between James Howe and Joseph Howe. I am new to this so I'm not sure w/ whom I am posting. However, any information is appreciated, from any source. The web is a plethora of conflicting information. On geni-web it shows James married to Rebecca Dailey. It further shows Joseph's middle name a William. How fun if I am finding distant relations! I am also curious if access was allowed to the cemetery at Sunnyside. I would love to be included in this thread if anyone is still checking it. Thank you. Nancy
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Nancy,
The internet claims that James Howe had issue with Joseph is false. All documented sources say that Howe died without issue. I posted earlier about a niece of James Howe, the daugther of his brother William Howe, was listed as the sole survivor of the family of Lt. Gen. Emanuel Scrope and Ruperta Howe, in an addendum to the will of Emanuel Howe that was posted 1747 - in addition, I mentioned that the family papers related to Mary Howe, in an earlier post, also explictily indicate that James Howe died without issue. These can be ordered from the U-Nottingham library. Also, I have obtained the wills (Pregoative Court of Cantbury) of James Howe's uncle, another Emanuel Scrope Howe, and all of his children and wife's wills as well, and it is clear that there was no Joseph Howe linked to them. I hope this is not disappointing, but facts are facts. There is a possibility that J. Howe of VA may be a Joseph Howe, son of John Howe. This English J. Howe was born in 1704 however and was probably too old to have been the American Joseph Howe.
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I should apologize for making you repeat yourself. I had previously read this thread and then on a lark last night decided to see if I could get a response. Upon a re-read, I see that you go back 6 generations to Joseph. If I am not being too forward, are you descended from Eliza (Lily) Tyler and Henry Harrison Wilson? Also, did you go to Sunnyside? Were you allowed access? I also saw that med Nell was a descendant. It's just fun to find others, with whom I would never have had an opportunity to correspond, with a common heritage.
And no, I am not disappointed. I liken this to a mystery novel. I generally don't put one down easily until completion. I'm impatient. I have always heard that the relationship to the crown was an illegitimate one and I'm still hung up on reading that Joseph was the "son of James" though I'm not certain now where I read it. (Gov. Tyler perhaps) I'm pondering if this indeed could be the case; if the birth was not in Hampshire County plus, who was Rebecca? Someone had to get her name somewhere. James died in 1728 and I show Joseph being born either in 1720 or 1729. Whichever, this would not preclude James. I also suspect that an illegitimate birth would be whispered, but not written. Your thoughts?
I also have a copy of a typed statement, signed by R.D. Howe, which gives the story of Joseph being the brother of George Augustus Howe and the top of the statement says "As taken from Westminster Abbey". Curious.
My initial search led me to "if legends are true" which showed him born in Effingham, Surrey. However, that familysearch.org leads to a Joseph in CN. There is confusion in this link but it does mention the Baronet of Compton.
I also used it for a specific birth year of 1729 which led to: Joseph How, christened 4-7-1729 in the Parish of Shrimpling, Suffolk County. This Joseph's parents being Joseph and Elizabeth.
The information on geni.com shows Joseph being born in Warwickshire. It gives the names of who added the information and who it is managed by (whatever that means) and I will see if I can get a response as to where this information came from and any substantiating evidence.
I'm sure I have added very little, if anything, in this pursuit and I apologize for my lack of brevity. I welcome further correspondence from you. I would just like to be able to give Joseph a family prior to his arrival in the states. Best Regards, Nancy
P.S. I'd also like to clean up the other threads if the mystery is solved.
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Nancy,
Please see my earlier posting about a Netheravon manor sold by a Joseph and Elizabeth Howe in early 1700's - Google this and you'll pick it up on the British history URL. Coincidentally, John Howe, Lord Chedworth of the Compton Howe's also owned properties there as you will read. I also found the Shipping birth but didn't pursue as I recall. This would be interesting connection if verified.
Thomas
PS I haven't yet visited Sunnyside. My ancspestorvwas Joseph's youngest daughter, Rebecca Howe who married a Daye.
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I am new to this thread, but very intrigued. I am descended from Joseph Howe (c. 1727-1794) and Elenora Dunbar (c. 1730-1790) of Sunnyside through Ann "Polly" Howe and her husband Robert Paris. I, too, have looked at the conflicting information on the internet connecting Joseph to the Howe and Scrope families of England. Contributors to this thread seem to be well-researched. While it seems clear there is nothing definitive, what is your "best guess" as to the English connections of Joseph, if any?
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Thank you for the continuing interest. In my opinion, unless James Howe, the son of Lt. Gen. Emanuel Scrope Howe and Ruberta Hughes, had issue that was never recorded, nor acknowledged by the 1741 addendum to the will of his father (and also addressed in the Smith-Bromley family papers as noted above), then I believe there is no evidence that he was in any way related to the Viscount Howe and the Baronet Howe family. I have obtained also all of the wills of the Viscount Howe (brother to Lt. Gen. Emanuel Scrope Howe) family (again see above) and there is no mention of a Joseph Howe anywhere. Now, he may be a Joseph Howe, the son of an English John Howe (disowned in ~1737 in his father John's will that I obtained from the Prerogative Court of Canterbury website), who was born in 1704, but that would make this Joseph probably far too old to be our man. Another avenue for investigation is one Joseph and Elizabeth Howe, who sold a manor in Netheravon to a member of the peerage (above) ~1737 (see above). Our man's first two children were also named Joseph and Elizabeth.
Question for you: Do you know if a daughter of your ancestor, Mr. Paris (Pearis? spelling) and your Ann Polly Howe, was named Ruperta?? That would be a VERY intriguing clue if it can be verified (vis-a-vis James Howe issue). I've seen Ruberta listed as such online at the Bergen County, NJ Historical site, but I believe it is just an error.
Good hunting!
Thomas
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The Ruperta Howe (normally named Ann (Polly)) who purportedly married a Mr. Pearis: See this link
http://www.njgsbc.org/files/familyfiles/p1623.htm#i51218
Again, I believe it to be incorrect claim and that Ann Howe was actually her name, as MDIndiana states.
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More detail of The Warwickshire link is given in the book "Americans of Gentle Birth" on p. 258 that summarizes the geneology of the Howe surname in early America .... "John Howe of Marlborough MA, who was the son of John Howe of Hodinhull, Warwickshire, Eng., connected with the family of Lord Charles Howe, Earl of Lancaster. John Howe of Hodinhull was in Sudbury MA in 1639, and was the first white man to settle in Marlborough."
Not the same family as the Baronet Howe's of Compton.
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I will preface this with - I am a blonde. The more I read, the more muddled I become.
I have also neglected to write down my cites. I fear many of you might find me to be more of a drag than a help, but I appreciate your patience and please endure with me, if you can stand it.
In "Listen to the Mockingbird" there is no mention of a Ruperta, only Ann. It goes on to say she had a son, Robert Howe Pearis, who was in the Kentucky legislature (Allen County) in 1828-1830 and 1840. I add this in case there are any loose ends on descendants and the off chance there could have been a Ruperta later. One of Joseph's granddaughters was named Rutha.
Since the family is fond of utilizing the same names over each generation, I like where you are going on the John and Elizabeth connection. However, I am confused by Netheravon and Netheravon at Haxton. I seem to keep missing Haxton in my read and Netheravon keeps leading back to the same family, as previously stated. In other words, what am I missing? Alternatively, is this all that has been found on John and Elizabeth thus far?
Along the same lines of family names: James doesn't appear to be one but Rebecca was used. (I haven't completely dismissed the illegitimacy theory, until better evidence comes to light).
By virtue of a cursory read (somewhere on the internet) the Howe genealogy book published, if I recall, in 1929 stated that there was no direct link between Joseph and the others in the U.S. which I would suspect to be true since he came over on his own. My point, I suppose, is we need to keep plugging away at England. Best regards and thanks. Nancy
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I am in contact with a descendent of James Howe's twin sister, Henrietta. There is a chance an autosomal DNA analysis between the descendent and I might help to establish a family relationship - assuming that Joseph was indeed the son of James. I'm certainly no expert, and given that this is going back at least 7-generations, unsure if we both wish to invest in the testing, and he may not be so inclined to participate, even if I pay for it, given that he has no direct interest. Comments?
PS There were two manors described in my earlier Britishhistory link to a Joseph and Elizabeth Howe at Netheravon. The one sold by them, and another owned by John? Howe (Baron Chedworth) if I recall, One might consider hiring a local English geneologist of that area to investigate any connection.
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Concerning Joseph & James Howe has there been a autosomal DNA done to see if there is a connection? This is just a thought , but I know about the families and they were VERY sensitive with religion changes so what if this would be a reason to disown Joseph and exclude him. There has been many accounts of connections to the Howe Emanuel Scrope Howe, Maria Sophia Charlotte Von Kielmannsegge family and the Lt. Gen. Emanuel Scrope Howe, Lady Ruperta Hughes Wittelsbach family that I do not feel it coincidental.
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Thank you for continuing the thread. There's been no interest since last year on this topic at RootsChat. Please reference or document your claim about the Howe's religious sensitivities. If you've none to state, then it's only hearsay. No DNA done with Henrietta Howe's (twin of James Howe) descendent yet.
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Hi, I'd like to revive this thread...I, like you tewilso, am descended from Joseph Howes daughter Rebecca Howe Day. On Ancestry.com I've always seen the link between Emanuel Scrope and Ruperta and wondered if it could be documented. Thankfully I found this thread and people who took the time to prove it one way. I was wondering now if you've any luck with DNA testing or has any new information come to light? I'm new to digging into the Howe family.
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No, I've not pursued DNA testing with a descendent of Henrietta Howe as its not feasible on scientific grounds.
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I also descend from Rebecca Howe, and have been trying for a long time to make the connection from her line "across the pond". So far I can't do it, and it sounds as though it remains murky business. I can at least let you know that I've been to Sunnyside in Virginia and it is not open to the public. Very overgrown, inaccessible. I took several photos from the road, if anyone is interested in them.
Am planning a long-awaited trip to England this fall and sure wish I knew where to find her ancestors!
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Dear Melcart,
Did you have any success in determining the lineage of Joseph Howe during your visit to England?
Thomas
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Hi there,
No, I did not end up researching the Howes on that trip last fall, as I decided to focus on my Jamestowne ancestor who was from Lancashire. BUT I loved England so very much that I know I will be returning again. Thanks for reminding me about this, you’ve gotten my curiosity up again. Have you found anything new??? Boy, how I’d love to make that connection from Joseph Howe to the Howes ‘across the pond’!
Posted on behalf of Mel, who sent the message to me in error.
To reply to the topic Mel you need to scroll down to the bottom and click on the reply button via RootsChat ;)
Sarah
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No, I've not kept up the search. Please stay in touch though from time to time. I think it very unlikely that there is a connection based upon my research several years ago.
Best of luck!
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Also, see the following link that concludes there is no relation between the Joseph Howe's and the Viscount Howes.
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.talk.royalty/2008-01/msg00159.html
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Status update: DNA testing (performed 01/15/18) has established a statistically significant autosomal DNA match (40 cM) between a 7th grandson of Henrietta Howe (sister of James Howe) and me (a 6th grandson of Joseph Howe). Two other USA descendants of Joseph who have participated in my study, also show matches at this level. The 7th grandson of Henrietta Howe and I are 9th cousins. 8th cousins typically have no more than 16 cM.
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Dear Nell and all other descendants of Joseph Howe of Pulaski County VA died 1790,
Please upload your AncestryDNA (or other autosomal vendor) raw data files to GEDMatch and let me know the kit numbers. I have found small triangulated segments between American descendants of Joseph Howe and a descendant of Henrietta Howe in England. The 7th Earl Howe will soon join my study. The more verifiable descendants of Joseph who can be tested at GEDMatch against the English Howe descendants and triangulate will bolster our level of confidence.Thank you.
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@tewilson
My GEDMatch kit number is T219965
I would be interested in what you can obtain from this.
--emma
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Please use mine from GEDmatch if it helps... Would love to know any results: A245291
Matt
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I have been looking for a James Howe for some time without any luck and just came across this thread - we think our James was born about 1764 no clue where or who are parents or siblings
He first appears in 1791 marrying Phillippa Duppa Hancorn and in 1797 he is executor of his father-in-law will - Baldwin Duppa and James is listed as a 'gentleman' ................. Alison
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Good evening,
This a new experience for me. I am a bit confused by your most recent post. Am I to understand that you have matched a proven individual from the Henrietta Howe line? This is very important for me, as well as for my family, as I was recently diagnosed with Porphyria. The type of Porphyria is the same as Prince William (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_William,_Duke_of_Gloucester) who was diagnosed with it in his lifetime.
If indeed, you matched the Howe associated with lineage that goes back to Mary Queen of Scots and the German Houses associated with King George and Prince William, then an explanation regarding my illness may come into view. My hematologist and the geneticist say that I was a carrier, as was my mother, until an insult to my body activated the condition. I now cannot be in the sun or fluorescent light. They also told me the condition can be dormant for generations. In my case, it was a chemical that triggered its appearance. My reaction to the increased porphyrins is characterized by blisters on my skin that appear after sun exposure. My skin also burns from sun exposure. I have neurological involvement as well and if I do not get to a hospital when I am suffering an attack, there are grave consequences. Everything from an inability to ambulate to loss of sight and respiratory arrest. If all goes well, these conditions do pass after infusions but unfortunately some can linger for weeks to months. The insult to my body left me chronically porphyric. If there are others on this board who have a similar condition, I would like to know of them.
I do not have any other line that would explain where Porphyria might come down to me. My mother is a direct descendant of Joseph Howe of Virginia through Ann,his daughter, who married Robert Alexander Paris/Parris/Pearis and they settled in Shelby County, Kentucky. I have urged so many of my cousins to have their DNA done and many of us are participating in Gedmatch. We would like to participate in your Gedmatch exercise but do not feel comfortable posting our results publicly.
So glad you got someone in the Howe family in England to cooperate. For me, it can help to answer a health mystery that I had assumed could have come through the Howe line, but when I read your post tonight indicating you had matched a descendant of Henrietta, I feel we have made great progress.
Hoping to hear from you soon,
Shay McNeal
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Hi Shay,
I have sent a message to tewilso to let them know of your reply, hopefully they will reply soon.
Regards
Sarah
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Good evening,
This a new experience for me. I am a bit confused by your most recent post. Am I to understand that you have matched a proven individual from the Henrietta Howe line? This is very important for me, as well as for my family, as I was recently diagnosed with Porphyria. The type of Porphyria is the same as Prince William (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_William,_Duke_of_Gloucester) who was diagnosed with it in his lifetime.
If indeed, you matched the Howe associated with lineage that goes back to Mary Queen of Scots and the German Houses associated with King George and Prince William, then an explanation regarding my illness may come into view. My hematologist and the geneticist say that I was a carrier, as was my mother, until an insult to my body activated the condition. I now cannot be in the sun or fluorescent light. They also told me the condition can be dormant for generations. In my case, it was a chemical that triggered its appearance. My reaction to the increased porphyrins is characterized by blisters on my skin that appear after sun exposure. My skin also burns from sun exposure. I have neurological involvement as well and if I do not get to a hospital when I am suffering an attack, there are grave consequences. Everything from an inability to ambulate to loss of sight and respiratory arrest. If all goes well, these conditions do pass after infusions but unfortunately some can linger for weeks to months. The insult to my body left me chronically porphyric. If there are others on this board who have a similar condition, I would like to know of them.
I do not have any other line that would explain where Porphyria might come down to me. My mother is a direct descendant of Joseph Howe of Virginia through Ann,his daughter, who married Robert Alexander Paris/Parris/Pearis and they settled in Shelby County, Kentucky. I have urged so many of my cousins to have their DNA done and many of us are participating in Gedmatch. We would like to participate in your Gedmatch exercise but do not feel comfortable posting our results publicly.
So glad you got someone in the Howe family in England to cooperate. For me, it can help to answer a health mystery that I had assumed could have come through the Howe line, but when I read your post tonight indicating you had matched a descendant of Henrietta, I feel we have made great progress.
Hoping to hear from you soon,
Shay McNeal
Dear Shay and previous respondents,
Thank you for your replies. Shay - I am sorry about your malady. I will provide more details later. I will also forward your message to Julian T-W, the descendant whom I had mentioned.
Yes, certainly Ann Howe Pearis is described in “Listen to the Mockingbird” by DD Howe (1968). I am finding more evidence of the paternity of our ancestor Joseph Howe - by having found a triangulated group consisting of Julian, a descendant of Henrietta Howe (b1704) and 3-4 American Howe’s who descend through his daughter Rebecca Howe Day, possibly Eleanor Howe Cornelius, and another unacknowledged daughter (listed as daughter of a neighbor of Joseph, James Hoge and Agnes Crawford).
Stay - do you have a GEDMatch kit number? It would also help if you could join MyHeritage. Others- I will use your GEDMatch numbers supplied and reply soon.
Kind regards,
Thomas
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Status update: DNA testing (performed 01/15/18) has established a statistically significant autosomal DNA match (40 cM) between a 7th grandson of Henrietta Howe (sister of James Howe) and me (a 6th grandson of Joseph Howe). Two other USA descendants of Joseph who have participated in my study, also show matches at this level. The 7th grandson of Henrietta Howe and I are 9th cousins. 8th cousins typically have no more than 16 cM.
Greetings, you wrote and indicated of a potential match. Since I am a 6th great-granddaughter of Joseph Howe, I would like additional details when you have them so that I can understand the information you preliminarily provided. Please drop me another note with additional details when available. This is very exciting not just for me, but for the group - to start to compile matches. Thanks for everything!
--emma
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I hope to compile my findings but am very busy at the moment. My best data originated from having uploaded, with permission, the English descendant’s DNA file to MyHeritage. From there, I’ve found some promising (need some more clarity yet on the tree details) matches between him and 3 perhaps 4, American Howe descendants, and 2, perhaps 3 (thresholds for a MyHeritagematch may be too demanding compared to GEDMatch) triangulate in the same Chr 13 segment.
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For those on this string - please perform a: (1) one-to-one match at GEDMatch with Julian at A096107, or (2) at MyHeritage with user “P J T-W”.
and post your results to this forum. It will be very helpful. There is a group who triangulate on MH but more time is necessary to confirm pedigree.
Thomas
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Curious any update on this thread?
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As of July 30, 2019 status:
Previous triangulated finds on MyHeritage, between two Americans and Julian T-W, a descendant of Henrietta Howe, were inconclusive, and it seems there was no Howe link at all, unless perhaps Joseph fathered a Barbara Elizabeth Hoge, who is listed on many sites as the daughter of James Hoge, Sr.
However, using Ancestry (downloaded all matches for both Julian and Dana K (below) and then culled the ones in common and who also had sizable trees), I’ve found two verified descendants of Joseph Howe, both through his daughter Elizabeth, and James Mayo Hoge, Jr., who match at 7 cM and 12 cM, respectively, with Julian, and who also match Dana K. The one who matches at 12cM, also matches to Dana K at 14 cM. Dana K, daughter of author of Listen to the Mockingbird) is my 4C2R and descends from Daniel Howe (son of Joseph). In addition I’ve found another American who, to her surprise, very likely descends from John William Howe (son of Joseph) and who also matches Julian at 10 cM.
There are also a number of known descendants of Joseph who match at 5 cM with Julian. Most DNA genealogists however, will dismiss matching levels at 5 cM and below as being “in the noise” (false positive match and/or beyond a 500-year time frame of a common ancestor) although pergolas in the future, a method to determine a quantitative estimate at 8th cousin level may appear.
Finally, I’ve found no matches on MyHeritage with descendants of Joseph, and the 7th Earl Howe, although there may be 1-2 possibilities. The Earl Howe descends from Joseph’s more distant 2nd cousins (4-5 Viscount Howe’s), unlike Julian T-W, who descends from Joseph’s aunt Henrietta Howe
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The supposed descendant of Henrietta Howe, with whom I have long searched for DNA match with my American Joseph Howe cousins, informs me that it now seems he does not in fact descend from Henrietta Howe. I have also not uncovered any matches between my American Howe cousins and the current 7th Earl Howe on MyHeritage.
Thomas
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Current status as of October 23, 2019:
Since Julian T-W has discovered he does not descend from Henrietta Howe (b1704) (although he states he may yet have another English Howe ancestor), and since there are two documented descendants of Joseph Howe who have matched him on Ancestry, as well as with Dana K, a 4th g-gdaughter of Joseph Howe at levels of 7-10 cM (largest segment size), one might conclude that two, 7-10 cM matches (although not triangulation) are not convincing enough to establish a most recent common ancestor at the level of an 8th cousin.
Nevertheless, I have recently found a documented descendent of Joseph Howe who matches the current Earl Howe on MyHeritage at a level of 7.8 cM segment (22 cM total), a Mary D. This is encouraging as the Earl definitively descends from Richard Howe, the 5th Viscount Howe. I will attempt to convince the Earl to also join Ancestry and allow me to manage his site there (as he has done for me on MH). which has a larger database, in order to gather more matches. A triangulation find would be very more likely of a MRCA.
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My dad (94yrs) has completed a DNA kit on Ancestry - can those results be used for this group regarding the Howe family - if so, what do I need to do with the information - his 3rd great grandfather is a James Howe but we haven't confirmed date and location of birth or his parents ............ Alison
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Hello Alison,
I can test your father at Ancestry against Dana Howe K if I know his Ancestry username for matching purposes. If he could have a kit done by MyHeritage then I could test against both Dana and the Earl.
Thomas
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On MyHeritage, I’ve found two descendants of 2nd Viscount Howe. Documented trees are available. You may wish to test at MH with these names for matches, and report your results here:
A “Jane Dubsky” in Australia, descends from Thomas Howe, and “Marion Headrick” from Canada, descends from his brother, Gen. William Howe. These are both sons of the 2nd Viscount Emanuel Scrope Howe, governor of Barbados. Joseph may have been their undocumented brother.
I’ve not had any luck myself among select American Howe cousins.
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I have now found evidence of a family link of Joseph Howe to the English Viscount Howe family.
The DNA company, MyHeritage, to which Earl Frederick Howe had uploaded his DNA test kit results, has just repaired their "Smart Match" search filter (it had never been functional, but I had no way of knowing this) for his site. As a result, for the first time, as site manager, I have found 15 DNA matches with him that include Joseph Howe descendants (Smart Match extracts from all DNA matches, those that must include family tree members in common). The Earl's default family tree is one that I created and uploaded based upon Joseph's pedigree and presumed English Howe ancestors.
Among the 15 DNA Smart Matches with him, there are numerous descendants of Joseph Howe’s daughters, i.e., (1) one descendant of Rebecca Howe Day, (2) one descendant of Ann Howe Paris/Pearis, (3) three descendants of Elizabeth Howe Hoge. I
In addition, I find one descendant of Prince Rupert that is consistent with the Earl's pedigree.
Now, it could be that the DNA Smart Matches result from other common ancestors of Earl Howe, but I think it unlikely. Among the 15 matches, there are, however, in my tree, some that don’t, to my knowledge, descend from Joseph.
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Details thus far:
I believe we now have strong evidence of a genetic link between Joseph Howe and the English Viscount Howe family. This week, MyHeritage technical support fixed an error in their “Smart Match” filter for DNA matches. Smart Matches finds all DNA matches that have matching family tree members. I used it for the first time with Frederick Howe’s MyHeritage site along with a family tree I created that includes many of Joseph’s descendants along with links to both 2nd Viscount Howe and James Howe.
Results: I have found 6 matches (out of 8205 overall DNA matches in MyHeritage to Frederick) between Frederick and descendants of each of Joseph Howe’s three daughters (why no sons??). My notes (I await replies from them).
Frederick has 8205 DNA matches, I found 15 such “Smart Matches” with at least 6 that seem to descend from Joseph Howe
(1) Wendy Moyle of Australia has a Moses Howe Hoge in her tree (p. 309 “Listen to the Mockingbird” (LTM), shows MHH was b1816, married Harriet Evans). Moses HH was 8th son of John Hoge (p. 308 LTM), John Hoge was 3rd son of Elizabeth Howe Hoge, daughter of Joseph Howe). Wendy Moyle matches Frederick Howe at 9.7 cM.
(2) James Holland matches Frederick at 9.2 cM. He lists in his tree Sarah Hoge, descendant of Elizabeth Howe Hoge. Sarah Hoge is #28 (Listen to the Mockingbird, p. 307) under #1 Elizabeth Howe Hoge, 8th daughter of #2 Joseph Hoge (2nd son of James Mayo Hoge and Elizabeth Howe. Sarah Hoge married J. R. Wheeler, Walker Co, GA.
(3) Steven Alan Bartlett matches Frederick at 11.4 cM and has a Nancy Stafford in his tree. Sarah Hoge, 6th child of JMHoge and EHHoge, b1780, d1842) married James Stafford (b1778, d1855, Carlisle, OH). Nancy Stafford was James Stafford’s mother.
(4) Matthew McMahon matches Frederick at 10.1 cM and descends from Ann “Polly” Howe Pearis, through her son Richard George Paris, b1789, NC, d1744, Clinton, IN).
(5) Sharon Lee Reynolds (manages by Bruce Maxwell) through William Sanford Day, son of Allen Taylor Day, b1796, p 288 LTM, son of Rebecca Howe and John Day. She matches Frederick Howe at 9 cM
(6) Kristen Chipley matches Frederick at 8.1 cM: She lists Hannah Alford in her tree. Hannah Alford (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Alford-397 ) was the grand-daughter of Eleanor Hoge and John Alford. Eleanor Hoge was the daughter of Elizabeth Howe and James Mayo Hoge. Elizabeth Howe was the daughter of Joseph Howe
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Hey guys! I've been following this page for some months now and wanted to touch base with a little update from the Rt. Hon. Earl Howe. But first, a little background. I also descend from Joseph Howe through his daughter Ann "Polly" Howe. My grandmother, from whom I get my descent from Joseph, and I have taken AncestryDNA tests and have many matches who are also descendants of Joseph. So if you want to compare results or see how much we match by, feel free to message me. Anyway, I had recently written to the current Earl Howe asking if there was any records on Joseph that he had knowledge of and also asked if Joseph could have been an undocumented brother or cousin of the 3rd, 4th and 5th Viscounts due to the new genetic results from MyHeritage. The current Lord Howe was very friendly as he responded to the question of Joseph being an undocumented brother by saying that he doesn't dismiss the idea out of hand. But he further informs me that there are problems with the possibility of Joseph being an undocumented brother. The first problem is that there is a complete absence of any documentary (or other) evidence that Joseph was born in England and that he was a son of the 2nd Viscount. He also informs me that the Howe family at that time was very close and that it doesn't seem likely that all records of Joseph being a member of that family would have disappeared or been expunged. The current Lord Howe also provided me with a list of the children of the 2nd Viscount and his wife, the 2nd Viscountess where there are six sons and four daughters (which the number of sons and daughters in this list are exact in many verified sources). The list is as follows: Scrope (born 1720- died 1728) Caroline (1722-1814) Charlotte (1723- 1787) George Augustus (1724-1758) Richard (1726-1799) John (born 17??-1731) William (1729-1814) Thomas (1731-1771) Juliana (1732-1803) Mary (1733/4-1819). Also, he sates that there is another problem regarding Joseph being a brother and born in 1720 (1720 is one alternative date many sources have Joesph being born in) before George Augustus (the eldest male child) because then the Viscount title would have gone straight to Joseph instead of George when their father died in 1735. The other issue that was brought up in the letter was that there are sources from Joseph's descendants and in the Book "The Family of Hoge" which state Joseph coming on one of his two trip to America around 1737 in which case Joseph would have been a child if he were born in the years after George Augustus, which also doesn't seem likely because if Joseph was born in the other alternative date in 1729 he still would have been a child around 1737. Also on that note, the "family tradition" sources and the book "The Family of Hoge" state that Joseph "ran away from home to join his brother who was an officer in the British Army" around the same time of his first trip, to which Lord Howe also states that George Augustus was not an officer until the 1750s. Furthermore, Lord Howe also states that a professor of genetics informed him that it is impossible to come to any "firm" conclusions because genes become diluted by 50% every generation. With all that being said, is it still possible that Joseph could have been a son of the 2nd Viscount or even a first or second cousin of the 3rd, 4th and 5th Viscounts? Because now I am very lost as to what Joseph's parentage could be due to the issues presented above and the contradictory matching DNA evidence between Joseph's descendants and the current Earl Howe's.
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Yes, there are major difficulties in concluding that Joseph Howe was a brother of the 3-5 Viscount Howe’s, as you say the Earl has noted. Perhaps the two matches that I’ve found stem from another line besides the Howe’s. Perhaps it is only by coincidence these two people match the Earl Howe, and also descend from Joseph Howe? There are the many generations involved, and also the possibility that the algorithm used by MyHeritage to identify the matches is faulty. The Earl Howe however will soon be joining Ancestry, and then we hope to see if there are other matches which might shed further light, pro or con, on the parentage of Joseph Howe.
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Thomas, I’m so sorry but for some reason it says “I’m not allowed to send personal messages.” But since you can, if you message me your email I can email you and we can continue communication that way.
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codyl - welcome to RootsChat. The only reason you are not allowed to send personal messages is that you may not have made enough posts. If you answer this thread again then you should definitely be able to send a message. :)
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I'm wondering what the current status is for the DNA matches. I descend from Rebecca Howe Day. i had my DNA done through 23andme and might be able to upload it, if it would help. I am SO curious about whether we can link our Joseph to James Howe.
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Thank you.
Current status: Two verified descendants of a Joseph Howe match the Earl Howe on MyHeritage.
Here, I’ve used the SmartMatch filter (with a tree I’ve built that links many of Joseph’s progeny to Joseph, then up and over, and back down, to the Earl. I’ve artificially included Emanuel Scrope Howe, 2nd Viscount, as Joseph’s father. I will also soon, add in James Howe (1704, 1728) as an alternative father.
One person who matched the Earl descends from Joseph’s daughter Anne Howe Pearis/Paris, and one descends from his daughter, Elizabeth Howe Hoge. Possibly a 3rd, also from Anne Howe, pending tree verification (not so optimistic). A few other mildly promising ones have not responded to my messages.
The Earl Frederick Howe will also be on Ancestry soon as well. I hope to use Thru-Lines featur of Ancestry to advantage.
Regards,
Thomas
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The two discovered matches however do not triangulate with the Earl. This is not in the least surprising. I also descend from Rebecca Howe.
If you have a MyHeritage username, please let me know it. Ditto for Ancestry (I’m wilsont40 on it).
Thank you.
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Wonderful news:-)
My username for both is Melcart1. I'd love to find out how close we are related.
Now, when you say you have included Scrope Howe artificially, does that mean you are waiting for further confirmation?
And, because I am kind of dense about all this, do you have confidence now that our Joseph and James were related? It sounds like you do.
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Status update 10/2/2020:
The Earl Howe recently uploaded his DNA test to Ancestry and has allowed me to manage the site. I subsequently uploaded a family tree that I constructed (2076 members), that includes many of his relatives going back to Emanuel Scrope Howe, the 2nd Viscount Howe, his 5th great-grandfather. With the assumption that Joseph Howe might have been an unacknowledged son of ESH, I then linked Joseph as his son in the tree, and continued adding many of his descendants. The resulting ThruLines for the Earl yielded NO matches at all by selecting any of the ancestors of the Earl in-line to, and including ESH. (I have found three descendants of Joseph who do match the Earl Howe by using various surnames in the manual search field. They are Karen Madding Childs, Tracie Bell, and SuzyTuckerSealy.) On the other hand, if I use the same tree using the DNA of Dana Dunbar Howe (Joseph was only her 3-great grandfather), I find 13 ThruLine matches to descendants of Joseph Howe, if I click on ESH (her presumed 4th g-gfather), and over 80 matches if I clicked on Joseph Howe. The lack of any ThruLines for Earl Howe, except for 9 linked through his maternal great-grandfather, to me is therefore surprising. This leads me to conclude the Ancestry ThruLines evidence tends to disprove any link to Joseph Howe through ESH rather than to support it. I just don't know if the manually-found, non-ThruLine matches to the Earl Howe are significant. They may match through other lines. Recall, I had also found two (the others that I had thought may have been descendants of Joseph turned out not to be so) matches manually on MyHeritage to the Earl Howe; these were Barbara Jane Paris and Mary Elizabeth Dolack. On Ancestry, the Earl Howe's username is: Frederick Howe
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Thank you ever so much for the additional information. I, too, find it surprising and interesting. Since we both descend from Rebecca Howe, daughter of James Howe, who do you have for her paternal grandfather in your family tree? I trust your information.
Melissa
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I’ve re-read the reply, now some years old already, from nhh on this thread. The mention of a Joseph and Elizabeth How(e) as parents of a Joseph How(e) born in Shrimpling, Suffolk County in 1729
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“I should apologize for making you repeat yourself. I had previously read this thread and then on a lark last night decided to see if I could get a response. Upon a re-read, I see that you go back 6 generations to Joseph. If I am not being too forward, are you descended from Eliza (Lily) Tyler and Henry Harrison Wilson? Also, did you go to Sunnyside? Were you allowed access? I also saw that med Nell was a descendant. It's just fun to find others, with whom I would never have had an opportunity to correspond, with a common heritage.
And no, I am not disappointed. I liken this to a mystery novel. I generally don't put one down easily until completion. I'm impatient. I have always heard that the relationship to the crown was an illegitimate one and I'm still hung up on reading that Joseph was the "son of James" though I'm not certain now where I read it. (Gov. Tyler perhaps) I'm pondering if this indeed could be the case; if the birth was not in Hampshire County plus, who was Rebecca? Someone had to get her name somewhere. James died in 1728 and I show Joseph being born either in 1720 or 1729. Whichever, this would not preclude James. I also suspect that an illegitimate birth would be whispered, but not written. Your thoughts?
I also have a copy of a typed statement, signed by R.D. Howe, which gives the story of Joseph being the brother of George Augustus Howe and the top of the statement says "As taken from Westminster Abbey". Curious.
My initial search led me to "if legends are true" which showed him born in Effingham, Surrey. However, that familysearch.org leads to a Joseph in CN. There is confusion in this link but it does mention the Baronet of Compton.
I also used it for a specific birth year of 1729 which led to: Joseph How, christened 4-7-1729 in the Parish of Shrimpling, Suffolk County. This Joseph's parents being Joseph and Elizabeth.
The information on geni.com shows Joseph being born in Warwickshire. It gives the names of who added the information and who it is managed by (whatever that means) and I will see if I can get a response as to where this information came from and any substantiating evidence.
I'm sure I have added very little, if anything, in this pursuit and I apologize for my lack of brevity. I welcome further correspondence from you. I would just like to be able to give Joseph a family prior to his arrival in the states. Best Regards, Nancy
P.S. I'd also like to clean up the other threads if the mystery is solved.”
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I have requested from the British national archives, two documents pertaining to the conveyance of a manor from a Joseph and Elizabeth Howe, to Henry, the 3rd Duke of Beaufort, in 1739. Again, this manor was only a few miles or less from another owned by Wiltshire-based Baronet Howe line.
These were noted in ref. 134 in: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol11/pp165-181#fnn133
Dates: 1739
I’ll post the results here as soon as they arrive.
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Dear all,
Some interesting news regarding a Joseph Howe in the time period of 1739. An update. I have received a transcription (June 2021) of first item from reference 134 of BHO "Parishes: Netheravon", namely: WILTSHIRE: Feet of Fines for 12 Geo II Hil’ (reference: CP 25/2/1233/12GEOIIHIL). This document was from the British National Archives and describes the conveyance of the manor (Netheravon with Haxton) in 1739 from Joseph and Elizabeth Howe to the 3rd Duke of Beaufort:
According to the form of the statutes.
The first proclam[ation] was made the twelfth day of Feb[ruar]y in Hilary term in the twelfth year of the King. William Written.
The second proclam[ation] was made the second day of June in Easter term in the twelfth year of the King. William Written.
The third proclam[ation] was made the fifth day of July in Trinity term in the thirteenth year of the King. William Written.
The fourth proclam[ation] was made the tenth day of November in Mich[aelm]as term in the thirteenth year of the King. William Written.
This is the oficial agreem[en]t made in the Court of our Sovereign Lord the King at Westm[inste]r on the
morrow of the purification of the blessed Mary in the twelfth year of the reign of George the
Second by the grace of God of Great Britain France & Ireland King Defender of the Faith, etc. Before
John Willes, Alex[ande]r Denton, John Fortescue and William Fortescue Justices of our Lord the King
& others then & there present Between Henry Duke of Beauford pl[ain]t[iff] and Joseph Howe & Elizabeth his
wife deforc[ien]ts of the manors of Netherhaven & Netherhaven with Hagglestone with the appurt[enances] and
of fourteen messuages two mills fourteen gardens fourteen orchards one thousand two hundred
acres of land one hundred & sixty acres of meadow one hundred & ten acres of pasture forty five acres of
wood three thousand five hundred acres of furze & heath forty shillings rent com[m]on of pasture
for all man[n]er of cattle & a view of frank pledge with the appurt[enance]s in the parish of Netherhaven &
Haggleston. Whereupon a plea of Coven[an]t was sum[m]oned between them in the same court that is
to say that the af[oresai]d Joseph Howe acknowledged the af[oresai]d manors tenem[ent]s Com[m]on of pasture
View of frank pledge with the appurt[enance]s to be the right of him the s[ai]d Duke as those which the s[ai]d Duke
hath of the gift of the afo[resai]d Joseph & Elizabeth and those they have received & quit claimed from them the
s[ai]d Joseph & Elizabeth & their heirs to the af[oresai]d Duke & his heirs for ever. And moreover the s[ai]d Joseph &
Elizabeth have granted for them & the heirs of the s[ai]d Elizabeth the af[oresai]d manors tenem[en]ts com[m]on
of pasture & View of frank pledge with the appurt[enance]s ag[ains]t them the s[ai]d Joseph & Elizabeth & the heirs of
the s[ai]d Elizabeth for ever. And for this acknowledgm[en]t to receive quit claim warr[ant]ys fine & agreem[en]t the
s[ai]d Duke hath given to the af[oresai]d Joseph & Elizabeth one thousand eight hundred pounds Sterling.
The above has been set out with the same lines as the original, for easy checking.
Letters in brackets are implied abbreviations.
This manor was located in the same village where another manor owned by Sir Richard Grobham, Baronet, Sir John Howe, Baronet, and later, his nephew and great-nephew, both Sir Richard Howe, Baronet. Hence, it may be that this Joseph Howe may have been the same or the father of Joseph Howe of colonial Virginia, as he would indeed have been a cousin to the Viscount Howe's of Nottingham.
Except from Parishes: Netheravon below:
From Sir John (d. 1559), the estate passed to his son Henry (d. 1594), and grandson John (d. 1639). (fn. 109) Sir John Brune sold in 1626 to Sir Richard Grobham (d. 1629). (fn. 110) Sir Richard's eventual heir was apparently his sister Joan, wife of John Howe of Bishop's Lydeard (Som.). (fn. 111) The property passed from Joan to her son Sir John Howe, Bt., grandson Sir Richard Howe, Bt. (d. 1703), and greatgrandson, another Sir Richard (d.s.p. 1730). (fn. 112) The estate then passed to Sir Richard's cousin John Howe (cr. Baron Chedworth 1741, d. 1742), and thereafter descended with the Chedworth title until the death of John, Lord Chedworth, in 1804. (fn. 113) It was offered for sale in 1807. (fn. 114) The lands were acquired by the Hicks Beach family in the following year and afterwards formed part of their Netheravon estate, (fn. 115) which then comprised c. 673 a. in Netheravon and c. 410 a. in Haxton. (fn. 116)
Thomas
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It turns out that Norfolk Records Office had a document "FEL 1017" shed more light upon the conveyance of a manor in Netheravon, Wiltshire sold by a Joseph Howe and his wife Elizabeth in 1738 to the 3rd Duke of Beaufort. The family origins of this Joseph Howe remain unknown however, we did learn the following - a report below from a Norwich-based genealogist who visited the NRO.
Perhaps we can learn more about this Joseph Howe from Middlesex records.
"Here is the information I found in FEL 1017 (see attached), This
indicates that the manor of Netherhavon previously belonged to the
grandfather of Joseph’s wife! She was the heir of Richard Kitson
gentleman of Wiltshire. Joseph is described as being of St Sepulchre’s
parish, Middlesex. It seems Joseph Howe and his wife were married at St
Sepulchre’s church in London on 7 October 1721 (from online indexes). I
am intrigued by the fact that Joseph’s profession was given as a
lapidary in 1721, but by 1739 he was a chocolate maker!"
The contents contained the following:
FEL1017
Cover title: Joseph Howes & ux[or] (wife) to The Duke of Beaufort - Deed of Bargain & Sale Dated 17th January 1738 Enrolled in the Warrants of Attorney Office
This Indenture made the 17th day of January in the 12th Year of the Reign
of our Sovereign Lord George the Second by the Grace of God of Great Britain
France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith and so forth and in the Year
of our Lord 1738 Between Joseph Howe of the Parish of St Sepulchers in the
County of Middlesex Chocolatemaker and Elizabeth his wife Grandaughter
and Heir at Law of Richard Kitson late of Ambresbury in the County of
Wilts Gentleman dec[eas]ed of the one part and the Most Noble Henry Duke of
Beaufort Marquise and Earl of Worsester Earl of Glamorgan Baron
Herbert of Raglan Chepstow and Gower of the other part Witnesseth that
for and in Consideracion of the Sum of £200 of Good and Lawful Money of
Great Britain to the said Joseph Howe and Elizabeth his wife in hand
at and before the Ensealing and Delivery of these presents well and
truly paid by the said Henry Duke fo Beaufort The Receipt whereof
the said Joseph Howe and Elizabeth his wife hereby acknowledge
accordingly They the said Joseph Howe and Elizabeth his wife Have
and each of them Hath Bargained and sold and by these presents
Do and each of them Doth Bargain and sell unto the said Henry
Duke of Beaufort his Heirs and Assigns All that the Mannor or
Reputed Mannor heretofore of Edward Duke Esquire and late of the said
Richard Kitson in Netherhaven in the said County of Wilts together
with all those messuages or Tenements Lands & Hereditaments whatsoever
with the appurtenances heretofore in the several Tenures or occupacions
of John Samwell Daniel Sutton alias Gill and William Tripp
and now or late in the several Tenures or occupacions of Robert
Ramsey Robert Taylor and William Atwood & every or either of them &c…….
and Also the several Quitt Rents Issuing due & payable &c. ……
all & singular houses outhouses buildings &c &c……
various yearly rents &c….
….To have & to hold the said mannor
or Reputed Mannor in Netherhaven Messuages Farms Lands
Rents Hereditaments & all & singular other the premisses
hereinbefore Bargained & sold or Mentioned or Intended
so to be and every part and parcell thereof with their and
every of their appurtenances unto the said Henry Duke of
Beaufort his Heirs & assigns To the Use and Behoofe
of the said Henry Duke of Beaufort his Heirs and
Assigns for ever and to and for no other Use Interest
purpose whatsoever. In Witness &c
[No signatures]