RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: amfraser72 on Saturday 05 March 11 19:56 GMT (UK)
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Looking for families, pictures from the village.
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Interesting site here with images, photos and history www.abandonedcommunities.co.uk/bothwellhaugh.html
Also here www.scottishmining.co.uk/12.html - just click on the sub headings linked on the left hand side under Bothwellhaugh for additional information.
Monica :)
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Here is another helpful site:
http://www.iwitness.btinternet.co.uk/bothwellhaugh/index.htm
Also, if you add some family surnames to your post here, folks may be able to help further with your request.
There is a memorial cairn situated in Strathclyde Park near where the village stood, and I think there is still an annual gathering there around the first Saturday in June, often followed, I believe, by a dance in the evening.
A picture of the cairn:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/713548
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Hi Scottmum
The family name is Fraser.
I am aware of the Bothwellhaugh reunions and 5 of us do try and get to them as often as possible. About 4 generations of our family lived in the village.
Alison
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An interesting short film (10 mins) on you tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3CWTi63EsM
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Bothwellhaugh School perhaps sometime between 1908 1918.
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Bothwellhaugh School perhaps sometime between 1908 1918.
erm, did you mean to ask or offer something, andrew, regarding the school between these dates?
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Still having problems attaching photos, sorry about the size. I will try again later.
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Ah, so the photo hadn't posted first time. Great that it has now.
Was it passed down to you from an ancestor?
As with other local pictures from that timescale, I wonder if perhaps the children with the large white collars were Lithuanian.
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Reduced the photo down to fit better screen size better, Andrew :)
Monica
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The photograph was my grans. I always presumed she was in it (why did nobody ask when she was alive?) If she is not in it either one or both her sisters are. I can't spot my gran although one of the girls does have a resemblance to her sister.
As you know there where a lot of Lithuanians in the Bellshill area so perhaps some of the children are.
I have another photo of my great grandparents and neigbours on the stair at Roman Place however it kept saying session timed out when I was trying to upload it. I will try again over the weekend.
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Andrew, there have a few technical hitches when people have been trying to load photos/images on to posts in the last couple of days. These are being worked on, as part of the major updates on the system that have been going on in the background. Try again another time :)
Monica
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The photograph was my grans. I always presumed she was in it (why did nobody ask when she was alive?).
Unfortunately, many folks with an interest in family history find wonderful photos handed down the generations but with no names recorded in writing and sadly, all too often, eventually those who knew the oral history of the photos, are either no longer able to recollect it due to issues with their memory in old age, or have passed on without younger generations asking.
I have another photo of my great grandparents and neigbours on the stair at Roman Place
I am sure folks will enjoy seeing this too, as photos always lend themselves to giving a 'feel' for an area they too may have ancestors connected with. Perhaps you could also add the family surname/s from your line/s who lived there, in case anyone else happens along who also had ancestors at Roman Place in particular and may recognise the neighbours.
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I would love to see the photo..... my grandfather was living in 14 roman place in 1930. his name was William hindman and was living with a relation named janet hindman at the time
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Hurrah I got it to upload!
This I believe is 40 Roman Place the home of my great grandparents John and Elizabeth Chambers (nee Cochrane) I believe John's half sister Jean Pentland (nee McClelland) is also in the picture. Do not know who any of the others are. My gran was a few years older than her two sisters perhaps she is the one in the background and her sisters on the stair (perhaps not?) John came over from Armagh sometime before 1901 as he is on the 1901 census living with the McDonald family at 12 Park Place. Elizabeth died young and John remarried (Eleanor Blair) who also died young (TB) John lived at Roman Place up until the early 1960's so would have known your family Heather as well as the original posters.
As an aside I have a William Hyndman connected to my family however I do not think he will be connected to your William Hindman, mine is from Coatbridge via Tyrone.
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Hurray indeed ;D What a great photo, Andrew!
Monica
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hi Andrew, great pic,.......my hyndmans/ hindmans, originate from Ireland but not sure where. they also ended up in Coatbridge, I am currently still researching them. my lot are,
William Hyndman 1844-1909, 2 wives, Margaret frame muir hogg and janet ferguson.
david hindman 1879, married Helen munro.
William hindman 1906, married ellen Cullen
anything familiar ???
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Yes, Lithuanian children often wore shirts with large collars.
My "Lithuanian" family lived in Bellshill and Bothwellhaugh from about 1902 to 1941. The family name was Sugzda (with marriages to the McKay, Wallace and McCaskill families). Eventually, they mostly moved off to New Jersey or Queensland.
My mother was born at 2 Store Place, Bothwellhaugh (just above the pool room); my g-grandparents both died at Park Place (near the footbridge) – my g-grandmum in 1930, and g-grandpa in 1941.
The family came to Lanarkshire shortly after the birth of my grandmother in 1901. They had lived in Lauckaimis, a tiny hamlet right on the border with modern Kaliningrad.
Karl Craig
Brisbane, Australia
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Karl your gran may be in that photo then, unless they went up to the RC school in Bothwell. I think it is from around the 1910 - 1915 period. You may be interested to know there is a Bothwellhaugh Public Facebook page with some great photos on it.
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Thanks for that Facebook tip, Andrew. I've signed up and hope to post there shortly.
Any clues to the names of children in that photo? Family names would be: Sugzda, Simanavicius, Zinkewicius (or variations thereof), Wallace, and McCaskill. Most Lithuanians in Bellshill/Bothwellhaugh were RC, but I have never heard that any of my family were particularly religious. Indeed, the 3 marriages I have in the 1920s for the children of Jonas and "Sarah" were all done by declaration, and not in church.
I know that the cousins (children of "Annie" and Jonas Zinkevicius) were specifically banned from being brought up as Catholics by their dad when he left to join the Red Army under the terms of the Anglo-Russian Military Convention of 1917. Their dad died of Typhus while serving in the Ukraine in 1921, but the mother never returned to the church. Their children were all born at 2 Store Place (above the billiard hall) between 1911 and 1915. My mother was born at that address in 1929, but went to school in Polmadie.
I'd love to hear from anyone who may have had contact with those families or places.
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There are a number of members on here with an interest in Lithuanian families from the Lanarkshire area, so you may find some of the posts of interest. Unfortunately I do not have the names of any of the children in the photograph. Sadly I am unable to even identify my own family. I can not see any Lithuanian families on the 1901 Census extract on the Scottish Mining Website so I am guessing they came to Bothwellhaugh a little later.
Your post is interesting to me as it validates some stuff which I have read regarding the Lithuanian community in Lanarkshire in that period. It is still a sensitive issue so I will tread lightly.
You probably know all of this but I will recap anyway. Ethnic Lithuanians where part of the Russian empire and saw a rise in their nationalist movement in the second half of the 19th century. Persecution by Tsarist Russia led to many Lithuanians leaving their homeland heading for America, only getting as far as the UK and Lanarkshire in particular. Lanarkshire was a hotbed of Lithuanian activism with one of the leaders of the nationalist movement exiled in Bellshill. There where at least two Lithuanian language newspapers in the area. In Bellshill (Mossend) Holy Cross church conducted services in Lithuanian and as in their homeland the church encouraged nationalist sentiments. There is still a Lithuanian club just down from Holy Family church in Mossend.
As was the case with Irish immigrants, Lithuanians came into conflict with their non catholic neighbours due to the issue of industrial relations. This period saw a rise in Trade Unionism as Scottish workers fought for better pay and conditions. Employers would take on non unionised workers from Ireland, and Eastern Europe who due to the Roman Catholic churches ban on Trade Union membership and perhaps through economic desperation, where willing to strike break, willing to work for lower pay, and ignore safety concerns.
1905 saw the first Russian Revolution and a radicalisation of the peasantry throughout the Russian empire, no less than in Lithuania. A new wave of Lithuanians arriving in Scotland where well versed in the writing of Karl Marx and the ideology of socialism. These new Lithuanian immigrants encouraged their countrymen to unionise and stand with their fellow workers for improvements to their working conditions. This led to a schism within the Lithuanian community with some staying very loyal to the church (especially the women) and those who where attracted to the ideal of socialism and even an atheist outlook. It looks like your family took the later view. This was brought to a head as you mention with the 1917 Anglo Russian Agreement where Russian nationals in Britain where to be conscripted to the Russian army. Lanarkshire Priests encouraged their congregations to take out British citizenship, to avoid conscription. Many Lithuanians chose to join the Red Army. They where badly let down by the British government however as their families where not supported by the state and it was left to the Trade Union and Socialist movements to support those left behind. This was further worsened after the war when the British government denied many of them from returning to Scotland due to a real fear that Britain was on the cusp of its own workers revolution. The thought of war hardened communists returning to “Red Clydeside” was something the British government could not contemplate and their fears materialised with the outbreak of rioting on Black Friday 1919 with the need for the army to deployed on the streets of Glasgow to quell the unrest.
Sorry if this is a bit political for Rootschat but I find the context of how our ancestors where living to be an important part of our family history.
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Andrew, you have expressed the times very well in your post, and there is little I could add. The issues were, as you say, sensitive, and my family was deeply affected, and divided, by the politics of the time. I still live with the pain of my mother’s split with her parents, but history is what it is and we must examine the past without partisanship or emotion.
Yes, the Lanarkshire mining communities were hotbeds of radical socialism and communism at that time, and with war looming and revolutions in Russia, the miners of Bellshill and Bothwellhaugh were living in electrifying times. My Lithuanian family seem to have arrived in Scotland to avoid conscription in the Tsar’s Russian army, but the 1905 and 1917 Russian revolutions would undoubtedly have added gunpowder to Lithuanian national ambitions. The Lithuanian migrants to Lanarkshire were certainly not welcomed by the mining unions at the time, as you say, and even Keir Hardie railed against them. These Lithuanians were technically “Russian Poles”, and that is how my family are registered in the 1911 census.
My grandmother married George Brown McKay, one of the foundation members of the Communist Party in Scotland. He was one of only six British Communists to be invited to Moscow in 1955 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the 1905 revolution. I still have a ‘Soviet-style’ paper weight he sent to me (in Australia, I was 6) as a souvenir. George died in Romania in 1974 while on a holiday paid for by the Communist Party – his will left almost everything, including a house, to the Party. Although I have little empathy for my grandfather’s politics, I have a curious ‘pride’ (well, grudging respect, anyway) in his achievements as a poor, working-class man who lived his life by his convictions.
Andrew has summed up the Lithuanian experience in Lanarkshire very well, but for those looking for a more detailed story, you could do worse than read Murdoch Rodgers’ 1985 article entitled “The Lithuanians” at the History Today website:
http://www.historytoday.com/murdoch-rodgers/lithuanians
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Hi Karl Craig, I notice you mention in one of your posts the family name Simanavicius. This was my grandmothers surname the family lived for a few years in Hamilton (then went back to Lithuania - my great grandparents died over there & my grandmother & her brothers returned to Scotland as young adults eventually settling in Midlothian Edinburgh) I have just found out today that one of my mothers cousins was born in Bellshill whcih means that they may have lived there at some point (trying to fill in some blanks). Am curious to find out if my great grandfather possibly had other relatives that didnt return to Lithuania. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I also have an old photograph somewhere with 2 young men on it and a name & Bellshill address on the back (I will need to look it out to see if you recognise the name)
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Hi Phil,
My great-grandmother was Petronėlė Melnikaitytė and she married twice: first to Pranciškus Simanavičius, and second to my great grandfather Jonas Šugžda. She married Pranciškus on 28 Sep 1886 at Vladislavov (now called Kudirkos Naumiestis). They had three children: Juozapas (1887), Silvestras (1888) and Ona (1891, later called Annie).
The two boys both died very young, and Pranciškus must have died before May 1890 as Petronėlė married Jonas Šugžda on 8 Sep 1890 at Vladislavov. Petronėlė and Jonas had 5 children in Lithuania, and Annie (Ona) was brought up in their household at the Sakalupis Estate near Lauckaimis. Two more boys died young, and then the family—Jonas, Petronėlė, Annie, Juozas (Joe, 1894), Bronislovas (Barney, 1898) and young Petronėlė (my grandmother, later called Sarah, b. 1901)—all left for Scotland around 1902.
The family settled in Bellshill, but in 1911 moved to the nearby pit village of Bothwellhaugh. The couple had two more boys in Scotland: John and Alex. All the boys (Joe, Barney, John and Alex) migrated to New Jersey in the early 1920s, although John Šugžda eventually returned to Bellshill where he lived for the rest of his life.
Annie and my grandmother stayed in Scotland. Annie married twice: first to Jonas Zinkevičius in 1911, and later to Vincas Dubickas in 1938. Jonas returned to Lithuania in 1917 under the terms of the Anglo-Russian Military Convention, and died (probably in a prison camp at Kharkov, Ukraine) in December 1921.
Now, I had always wondered if any of Pranciškus Simanavičius's family had left Vladislavov and moved to Bellshill with the Šugžda family and others. If so, they would be connected to Annie, and I'm in contact with many of Annie's descendants, some of whom live in the USA, and others near me in Brisbane, Australia.
Does any of that help with your research? I have a family history blog where you will find quite a bit of information about my Lithuanian family:
www.craig-galt.info
Although some of my articles have not yet been finished on that site, you should find sufficient to give you a good idea of my family. I'd be delighted to hear if you have any information that might tie in with my Simanavičius connections.
Best regards
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Hi, thank-you so much for your quick reply. Dont recognise the place names from my tree but will tell you a bit about my great grandparents incase you've came across any of the names, places etc. My great grandfather was Juozas Simanavicius born 1860 (son of Jan/Jonas Simanavicius & Kotryna Ratkeviciute) his siblings where: Andrius b.1845 Antanas b.1848 Ona b.1853 (married Vincas Dabulevicius) Mariana b.1854 Magdalena 1857 Apolonija b.1859 & Ieva b.1862-died 1864.
As far as I know, all where born in Plutiskes. One of my great uncles Kazimieras was also born in Plutiskes but brought to Scotland as a young child by my great grandmother Elzbieta (Januskaityte) to join Juozas. Juozas & Elza went on to have another 3 children all born in Hamilton - Juozas b. 1906 my grandmother Ona b.1908 & Petras b.1910. The whole family except Kazimieras went back to live in Lithuania shortly after Petras was born(not discovered exact place yet) & another daughter Marijona was born in 1912. My grandmother & her brothers came back to Scotland around 1926 (thats when their passports where issued by british consulate in Kaunas) however as Marijona was not born in Scotland & not a uk citizen, she remained in Lithuania & eventually lived in Azuolu Buda. I just recently found Marijonas marriage record & it states she was married in Skriaudziai church & was living at that time in Baltreliskiai village Veiveriai parish. It states she was born in Gudeliai so maybe thats where Juozas & Elza settled when they left Scotland (having problems getting it confirmed) Kazimieras (the oldest son who became Charles Smith) opened a bakery in Newtongrange Midlothian and when my grandmother & her other 2 brothers came back to Scotland they worked for Charles in his bakery. My grandmother married my grandfather Anton Marcinkewicz & they also lived in Newtongrange. I just got information that Juozas jnrs daughter was born in Bellshill (i've asked her son if he has any idea why but he doesnt know). The photograph I mentioned yesterday with a Bellshill address is of 2 smart young men & on the back written is: Albert Chigas, 1 Stanley Drive, Bellshill. Sorry for such a long message but something maybe familiar to you. Had a look at your family blog & it is fabulous.
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Hi Phil,
Plutiškės, Ąžuolų Būda, and Veiveriai are all places about 12 or 15 miles southwest of Kaunas. My family lived about 30 miles due west of Plutiškės right on the border of Lithuania and the Russian Exclave of Kaliningrad. At the time our families were going to Scotland, Kaliningrad was East Prussia.
You can see a map of pre-WW1 Lithuania on my blog-site at:
http://www.craig-galt.info/maps/lithuania-pre-ww1-map/
My guess is that your place names are just within the old province of Suvalki. It is possible that our Simanavičius people are related, but there's nothing connecting them from the names and places we have. Stanley Drive in Bellshill is about a kilometre north of where my family lived (1902–1911) in Glebe Street.
Many thanks for the information on your family. I'll keep them referenced in case one day something turns up that connects them to mine. You never know what might turn up!
Best wishes
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Yes places where in Suvalki (was in Lithuania in May as I found out exact churches cemeteries etc relating to family so wanted to visit). I live in Coatbridge which is just next to Bellshill. Thanks for your help & please do let me know if any connection ever comes to light
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I visited Lithuania in September last year (2016), and managed to see the farm (Sakalupis) and parish church (Vladislavov, now Kudirkos Naumiestis) where my family lived. It was a fantastic experience. As a boy, I never thought I'd ever know anything about my Lithuanian forbears, so it pays to keep trying! :)
Let's hope we can connect our Simanavičius families.
I did some searching in Scotland's People for my family names in the hope that brothers and cousins had also migrated to Scotland. Of course, spellings can vary enormously, and many changed their names to English ones (e.g. many in my 'Zinkevičius' family adopted the name 'Fletcher'). I think I did find ones that might have been 'Simanavičius', but discounted them at the time. Might look again.
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Hi There is a Page on Facebook & it is called Bothwellhaugh, it is free to join. Just click "Join" & ask to join group.
Harry.
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Just noticed a post on the Bothwellhaugh Facebook page which may be of interest to HeatherWalsh.
It is an extract from St. Brides parish magazine with notifications of marriages. One of the marriages is a David Hindman of 14 Roman Place marrying a Jane Anderson of 5 Haugh Place on the 9th July but does not state what year.
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Just noticed a post on the Bothwellhaugh Facebook page which may be of interest to HeatherWalsh.
It is an extract from St. Brides parish magazine with notifications of marriages. One of the marriages is a David Hindman of 14 Roman Place marrying a Jane Anderson of 5 Haugh Place on the 9th July but does not state what year.
From SP the year was 1948
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thank you