RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: snikwahrm on Saturday 05 March 11 23:16 GMT (UK)
-
My grandfather, Henry Octavius Atkinson, born Harrogate, Yorkshire England, sailed to New York from Liverpool 11 June 1914; he married my grandmother in Sherbrooke, Ontario on 10 December 1917 & a daughter was born in Montreal in 1918. My grandmother, born in Kent, England, returned there with her child, shortly before the birth of my mother in 1919. Henry was an engineer & was said to be building a bridge in Montreal when the couple met, which bore a plaque recording his name. He worked for his family firm in Harrogate, which made metal structures & it is believed that he was engaged on their behalf in Canada. When he died in 1943, as he had no next of kin in Montreal, a court hearing was held to settle his affairs & my grandmother in England was sent a copy of the hearing.
I have documentation of all the above, but would love to learn where he was & what he was doing for the 24 years between 1919 & 1943. Can anyone give me any pointers, how to do this please?
Any help would be so appreciated
Margaret
-
Hi,
Here is some information about bridges in Montreal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_to_the_Island_of_Montreal
Maybe you can see which one he worked on.
You can check the Lovell's directories too
http://bibnum2.bnquebec.ca/bna/lovell/index.html
Click on Serie Principale, then it is in English.
RK :)
-
Many thanks for those links - a quick look revealed a bridge built 1919 & the name of the company which built it. That company was also in the Lovells directory. It is the type of bridge the family firm built, so perhaps that was the one & maybe he was working for that firm!
The only thing which bothers me is that it was a good way from Montreal itself, I think & from Sherbrooke. They met when were both staying in the same hotel (I know not where in Quebec) & married in the Irish church at Sherbrooke. Neither had Irish connections. Do you think they married there because it was the nearest church to Montreal, where English was spoken?
Some time ago, I did contact the office in Montreal which deals with the records of defunct companies. There was a company set up in Canada by my grandfather's firm, called Atkinson building company & I had hoped to learn if he was involved in it, as you can with the London based Companies House. However although I explained the reason for my interest, they seemed to believe I was interested in any remaining assets of the firm & referred me to some kind of federal finance office. Perhaps it was the language barrier.
Any ideas how to pursue the bridge 1919 for information about a plaque bearing his name?
-
On the “Your Folks” genealogy web site I found a marriage listed between Henry Atkinson and Rose Eleanor Florence Allen on December 12, 1917 in Saint Peter’s Anglican Church in Sherbrooke, Quebec.
Can you give the name of the Bridge in question?
-
Thank you for your interest - yes that is my grandparents' marriage. I found an original image on Ancestry but it simply said The Church of Ireland, Sherbrooke & it looks like 10 December to me. I can add St Peter's Anglican Church to my notes, thank you. Does anyone know if it is still in Sherbrooke?
The info about the bridge in Montreal, with the plaque came via my aunt from her mother, but all that was said was it bore his name. All that is known about her time away from England is that she was in Pennsylvania, New York & Montreal. She only spoke about inconsequential aspects of her time there, not being a person to look back. She was there with her parents as her father was working there on behalf of the British government.
If only I could identify that bridge, I might learn more about the 'missing' years of the life of Henry Octavius Atkinson from Harrogate, Yorkshire, England.
-
St. Peter’s Church is still standing In Sherbrooke.
http://quebec.anglican.org/Front%20page/Parishes%20congregations/St%20Francis%20Deanery/Sherbrooke.htm
I went on the Library and Archives Canada web site and checked the 1911 census. I found an Allen family living in Sherbrooke Quebec in the West Ward, listed on lines 43 to 46 on the following pdf.
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002087984.pdf
I would think that the bridges he was working on at the time they met (before Dec. 1917) would be in the Sherbrooke area of Quebec’s Eastern Townships.
-
Thank you so much for the website link for the church - I had searched in vain, finding only reference to the St Peter's Church hall. It's good now to have a picture of the church, thanks to your input.
Sadly I do not think this Allen family is connected to mine. My maternal great grandfather was with the Royal Navy (I have obtained his service records) until shortly before travelling from Liverpool to New York in January 1915, with others working for Woolwich Arsenal, (then Kent, now South London) occupation shown as Examiner; their passages were paid by the British government. His destination was Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. His wife & my grandmother, his daughter followed in June 1915. Great grandfather & his wife returned to England in December 1918, so I assume his work was complete. Does anyone know if there was an army or armaments base, during WW1 in Sherbrooke, to explain his presence there?
I have been unable to find Henry Octavius Atkinson in census in Sherbrooke or Montreal. Is there any other way to establish his presence there between 1919 & 1943? The court hearing was in Montreal when he died, so I assume that is where he remained in the intervening years.
-
Canada's latest census release was the 1911.
Debbie
-
Ah, Debbie, much as I suspected. But is it possible to trace people otherwise? e.g. in England, we complete an annual voting register, so 'poll' lists are available.
-
Canada is much less open about information. This link explains the voting registers here
http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=reg/des&document=index&lang=e
Not sure if this is "your" Henry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c5e/
Newspapers, city directories, cemeteries are sources used to trace forward. Records available vary from area to area in Canada. I got the above article using this site so perhaps if you expand and vary your queries you might find something more
http://news.google.ca/archivesearch/advanced_search?ned=ca&hl=en
The only other thing available would be the 1940 registration as detailed in this link
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy/022-911.007-e.html
Debbie
-
If your grandparents were living in the Montreal area, why would they travel all the way to Sherbrooke (about 50 miles) to get married? There are many Anglican churches in and around the Montreal area.
This may be a red herring, but is it possible that the Allen family listed on the 1911 census in Sherbrooke are related to your grandmother? An uncle and cousins? If so it could explain the location of the marriage.
-
That's where local knowledge is so invaluable. When I first found the marriage record, I wondered if difficulty in finding an Anglican church in the French part of Canada was the reason they went to Sherbrooke. Now, I am thinking they were based in Sherbrooke, which is why I raised whether there was some kind of munitions/army base there during WW1 where my great grandfather Allen was working. Also the bridge my grandfather Henry O Atkinson was working on was likely to have been in Sherbrooke.
I did wonder if the Allen family in Sherbrooke in 1911 were related, but I have researched this family extensively & cannot see a likely candidate. However, a generation or two back, the family was on the Isle of Wight & I have no knowledge of that extended family. All I do know, from a chance remark made by my grandmother, was that they were in touch with family members on the I.O.W. at least until the 1950s. As a small child, I spent a holiday there with my grandparents in a boarding house & she said the proprietor was her cousin. Sadly as the oldest family member now, there is no way I can learn more from relatives. A familiar comment from a family history buff!
-
Thank you for all those links, my favourites list is growing, lol. You have certainly given me plenty to chew on, Please can you tell me if he would he have been entitled to vote if he was not naturalised? Was residency sufficient? According to the copy of the court hearing to settle his affairs, he died in Montreal, so it maybe that he lived there for most of the missing years 1919 - 1943.
He was a structural engineer, so it is possible the 1927 newspaper article refers to him. But he left little money, so if he made money in Canada he spent it!
Canada is much less open about information. This link explains the voting registers here
http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=reg/des&document=index&lang=e
Not sure if this is "your" Henry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c5e/
Newspapers, city directories, cemeteries are sources used to trace forward. Records available vary from area to area in Canada. I got the above article using this site so perhaps if you expand and vary your queries you might find something more
http://news.google.ca/archivesearch/advanced_search?ned=ca&hl=en
The only other thing available would be the 1940 registration as detailed in this link
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy/022-911.007-e.html
Debbie
-
Canada was part of the Commonwealth and as such we were British subjects. When he came to Canada he had rights as a British subject and did not have to be naturalized.
Debbie
-
Hello!
I am a Sherbrookoise with franco-irish roots so I can offer some more details that may be of interest or even helpful! ;D Quebec's Eastern Townships were first settled by the United Empire Loyalists, so it was English country at first.
St Peter's and its wee cemetery are both still intact. Funny, I never heard it referred to as the Irish Church; I just assumed anyone who spoke english wound up using it.
Sherbrooke has a 'town' attached to it, to its west known as Lennoxville, where the anglophones tended to make their homes. It is home to the prestigious institution Bishop's University-which houses the ETRC The Eastern Townships Resource Centre - with a special focus on the English-speaking community.
www.etrc.ca
On there you will find many, many links that can help you. The staff are fantastic too. There is also the eastern townships heritage webmagazine that always has wonderful picures including bridges! www.townshipsheritage.com
(Be sure to visit Marilyn Simmons' genealogy website.)
As far as bridges go- your grandfather would have been kept busy in Sherbrooke alone, as there are two major rivers there - the St Francis and the Magog. (The latter was a source of hydroelectric power). There are three bridges: the King, Wolf and Dufferin Streets bridges. See pictures of all three at the ETRC site.
And your military hunch is on the money. We had the first bilingual regiment in the country in the Sherbrooke Hussars.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/sherh/qg-hq/historique-history-eng.aspx?action=view&id=1gm-ww1
(Be sure to read the story about 'the bomb'- I have been on it!)
That ought to keep you busy for a while, but feel free to pm me for local insights any time. Or if you need help.
Glad to blab about home-just grab a cuppa first!
Nathalie (Frirish)
-
Another tool I would not be without is a perpetual calendar. It can help sort dates out-like your 1917 wedding mystery.
December 1917
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
6 and 10 are often confused. So would they have been more likey to have married on a friday or tues according to their religion?
-
Last but not least, while before the time-frame you need, it may prove to have some clues down the road.
http://anengineersaspect.blogspot.com/2009/08/102nd-anniversary-of-quebec-bridge.html
It is a detailed treatment of the 1907 Quebec Bridge disaster in Montreal. Pictures included. I did notice that some of the workers employed on building the bridge were from Pennsylvania...Your grandfather's expertise may have been sought after in the rebuilding of this behemoth.
Nathalie
-
Thank you for your advice - I have a copy of the original registration. The date is handwritten words & whilst the writing is old fashioned, it looks far more like 'tenth' than twelfth, so I am inclined to think the 'your folks' transcription is wrong. However that transcription gave me St Peters, so I am grateful for that. With only Church of Ireland before from Ancestry, I could not identify the church.
Both parties were Church of England. It was something of a shotgun marriage,with the bride being 3 months + pregnant, so I imagine the day of the week was not material.
Another tool I would not be without is a perpetual calendar. It can help sort dates out-like your 1917 wedding mystery.
December 1917
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
6 and 10 are often confused. So would they have been more likey to have married on a friday or tues according to their religion?
-
Thanks Natalie, that looks useful.
Margaret
Last but not least, while before the time-frame you need, it may prove to have some clues down the road.
http://anengineersaspect.blogspot.com/2009/08/102nd-anniversary-of-quebec-bridge.html
It is a detailed treatment of the 1907 Quebec Bridge disaster in Montreal. Pictures included. I did notice that some of the workers employed on building the bridge were from Pennsylvania...Your grandfather's expertise may have been sought after in the rebuilding of this behemoth.
Nathalie
-
Thank you so very much Natalie for the insight you have given me about Sherbrooke. You have certainly kept me busy with the links. No luck so far in finding a bridge there built C1918, likely to be steel, if my grandfather was involved. Also can't find Marilyn Simmons genealogy site, can you guide me please?
I think my great grandfather Allen was involved in making, testing & evaluation of munitions, probably guns, so I have been looking for a research & development centre in or near Sherbrooke. This is the type of work he was doing in Woolwich Arsenal. At Woolwich, there were army bases on the same site as the arsenal, so it may be that he was working at the Sherbrooke Hussars base. Looking at your links, I discovered their motto was 'Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense' which reminded he had an embroidered picture with that motto in his home! Also the colours of the regiment are at St Peter's Church in Sherwood, so it must have been close to the church.
It is great to have made contact with a Sherbrookoise - I will try not to pester you too much, but please expect pms, lol. I notice I can attach an image so here is that marriage record. What do you think is the date?
Best Regards
Margaret
-
The date is is the tenth day of December AD nineteen hundred and seventeen.
-
Your great Grandfather could also have being in Canada to give technical advice to local industries, or as an inspector to make sure that British standards are met.
War industries and Commerce
“Large scale military industries developed in Canada following its entry into the First World War. Under the coordination of the Imperial Munitions Board, supplies from Canada flowed to Europe as industries, old and new, produced enormous quantities war material. By 1917, some 600 factories were employing at least 150,000 workers, out of a population of over seven million, making everything from uniforms to submarines. Ammunition was an especially important industry and nearly a third of all ammunition fired by Allied artillery during 1917 was Canadian made.”
Source: http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/html/gl-ga/index-eng.asp?letter=W&page=1&t=
The Sherbrooke Hussars and Les Fusiliers de Sherbrooke are local milita units and as such would not have any connection to your Great Grandfather’s work.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/sherh/qg-hq/historique-history-eng.aspx?action=view&id=intro
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/35gbc/unites-units/fusdesher-eng.aspx
-
Last but not least, while before the time-frame you need, it may prove to have some clues down the road.
http://anengineersaspect.blogspot.com/2009/08/102nd-anniversary-of-quebec-bridge.html
It is a detailed treatment of the 1907 Quebec Bridge disaster in Montreal. Pictures included. I did notice that some of the workers employed on building the bridge were from Pennsylvania...Your grandfather's expertise may have been sought after in the rebuilding of this behemoth.
Nathalie
Just so you know, this happened near Quebec City, not Montreal. St-Romuald is just across the river from Quebec City :)
Interesting that New Liverpool is still called New Liverpool, despite the Quebec government's attempts to eradicate English place names :P
Cheers,
China
-
Thank you -that confirms what I made it.
The date is is the tenth day of December AD nineteen hundred and seventeen.
-
Thank you enormously for that information - that could well explain my great grandfather's occupation as 'Examiner' & why there were so many other examiners who travelled with him to New York. However, it does not tell me why he was in Sherbrooke. I think I must also explore his first location of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA & seek clues there.
Your great Grandfather could also have being in Canada to give technical advice to local industries, or as an inspector to make sure that British standards are met.
War industries and Commerce
“Large scale military industries developed in Canada following its entry into the First World War. Under the coordination of the Imperial Munitions Board, supplies from Canada flowed to Europe as industries, old and new, produced enormous quantities war material. By 1917, some 600 factories were employing at least 150,000 workers, out of a population of over seven million, making everything from uniforms to submarines. Ammunition was an especially important industry and nearly a third of all ammunition fired by Allied artillery during 1917 was Canadian made.”
Source: http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/html/gl-ga/index-eng.asp?letter=W&page=1&t=
The Sherbrooke Hussars and Les Fusiliers de Sherbrooke are local milita units and as such would not have any connection to your Great Grandfather’s work.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/sherh/qg-hq/historique-history-eng.aspx?action=view&id=intro
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/35gbc/unites-units/fusdesher-eng.aspx
-
Hi,
Bethlehem PA = STEEL!! They are known for this - makes sense he would go there! :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem_Steel
RK
-
OOOOOOOh, thank you for that Bethlehem link! When I looked for Bethlehem in the past, I found nothing significant, but following a link from Wikipedia..... 'WW1 made Bethlehem one of the biggest & most profitable companies in the world. Within 6 months of the first shots fired in August 1914, the company received more than $50 million in ordnance orders from Britain & France plus the largest order in Bethlehem's history - $135 million from the British navy for howitzers, naval landing craft, guns, shrapnel shells & most important, 20 submarines ....' & it continues '*10 submarines were assembled at a shipyard in Montreal owned by Canadian Vickers'. (*after October 1914). There were 2 large English Vickers works were close to Woolwich & were no doubt providing weapons for Woolwich Arsenal. These two factories were so large that many workers were recruited in the area & resulted in Vickers having a housing estate built in each location!
Maybe I am getting ahead of myself, but I feel this has revealed why my great grandfather went from Bethlehem to Montreal. Because I knew he was working on guns at Woolwich Arsenal in the 1920s, I thought that was why he was sent to the US & Canada, examining guns or shells. But he was a naval man & the mention of subs & Montreal make me inclined to think that was his concern. Now I need to establish where that shipyard was in Montreal. Perhaps in Sherbrooke?
And what of the steel element, I ask myself? Henry Atkinson arrived in New York in June 1914. Did he also go to Bethlehem before arriving in Montreal? His family firm back in England also made landing craft & bridges for the armed forces in WW1. When he died, the court hearing stated he had arrived in Montreal in 1916.
I definitely feel I now know more about their activities during WW1. Thank you for that invaluable clue!
Margaret
-
Thank you, I reckon you are spot on!
Thank you enormously for that information - that could well explain my great grandfather's occupation as 'Examiner' & why there were so many other examiners who travelled with him to New York. However, it does not tell me why he was in Sherbrooke. I think I must also explore his first location of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA & seek clues there.
Your great Grandfather could also have being in Canada to give technical advice to local industries, or as an inspector to make sure that British standards are met.
War industries and Commerce
“Large scale military industries developed in Canada following its entry into the First World War. Under the coordination of the Imperial Munitions Board, supplies from Canada flowed to Europe as industries, old and new, produced enormous quantities war material. By 1917, some 600 factories were employing at least 150,000 workers, out of a population of over seven million, making everything from uniforms to submarines. Ammunition was an especially important industry and nearly a third of all ammunition fired by Allied artillery during 1917 was Canadian made.”
Source: http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/html/gl-ga/index-eng.asp?letter=W&page=1&t=
The Sherbrooke Hussars and Les Fusiliers de Sherbrooke are local milita units and as such would not have any connection to your Great Grandfather’s work.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/sherh/qg-hq/historique-history-eng.aspx?action=view&id=intro
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/35gbc/unites-units/fusdesher-eng.aspx
-
shipyard was in Montreal. Perhaps in Sherbrooke?
Have you looked at a map? I don't think you're going to find many shipyards in Sherbrooke.
Don't think there are any left in Montreal either. But back then there was a big one run by the Dominion Bridge Company, as both ventures had to do with high-grade steel.
http://shipbuildinghistory.com/history/canada/united.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Bridge_Company
Cheers,
China
-
Here’s a link for Canadian Vickers:
http://shipbuildinghistory.com/history/canada/vickers.htm
-
The Dominion Bridge Company again - I really do feel we are getting closer to an answer! If they operated a shipyard & built a bridge in Sherbrooke, we maybe have the connection between my great grandfather's WW1 work & the bridge built by Henry Octavius Atkinson. My mother said she thought that G-grandfather Allen & Henry O were friends first, 'drinking companions after work'. But I could not see the connection between their work. & thought they simply met in the hotel they were both said to be staying in. There was only about 8 years age difference; Henry was about 20 years older than his bride.
Now I must explore your links, thank you.
shipyard was in Montreal. Perhaps in Sherbrooke?
Have you looked at a map? I don't think you're going to find many shipyards in Sherbrooke.
Don't think there are any left in Montreal either. But back then there was a big one run by the Dominion Bridge Company, as both ventures had to do with high-grade steel.
http://shipbuildinghistory.com/history/canada/united.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Bridge_Company
Cheers,
China
-
Just in case you missed my earlier post with the link for Canadian Vickers.
http://shipbuildinghistory.com/history/canada/vickers.htm
And here is a link for the H-class subs build by C-V.
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/hclaspht.htm
Note that it looks like United Shipyards were only active during the Second World War building Liberty ships.
-
Thank you very much indeed for those links: I am immensely grateful to all those who have responded to this thread. I have learned more from these exchanges about what both my grandfather & great grandfather were doing during WW1 in Quebec, than I learned in 5 years of searching elsewhere.
There are still outstanding questions, but I now have so many avenues to explore! Many thanks to you all.
-
Sadly I do not think this Allen family is connected to mine. My maternal great grandfather was with the Royal Navy (I have obtained his service records) until shortly before travelling from Liverpool to New York in January 1915, with others working for Woolwich Arsenal, (then Kent, now South London) occupation shown as Examiner; their passages were paid by the British government. His destination was Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. His wife & my grandmother, his daughter followed in June 1915. Great grandfather & his wife returned to England in December 1918, so I assume his work was complete. Does anyone know if there was an army or armaments base, during WW1 in Sherbrooke, to explain his presence there?
Hi. I was really interested to read the above. I believe my husband's grandfather Thomas was one of the "others" working for the Woolwich Arsenal who travelled to the USA in January 1915. I have been trying for years to find out why the British Govt would have paid to send much needed workers during WW1 to USA. Have tried Arsenal Historical Society with no joy - one day I may have to have an overnight stay in Kew and check the multitude of boxes that hold information on the Arsenal! My husband's grandmother and father travelled over almost a year later and met Thomas in Waterinbury, Conneticut so sounds like none of them stayed in South Bethlehem for long. I know the family stayed with othe relatives who had previously emeigrated to the USA in Lima, Ohio. They also went to New Jersey and Niagara and lived for some time in Buffalo where sadly Thomas died. His wife and young son then retuned to the UK in 1919. I do have some photos taken in USA that have other people not known to me - I will try to dig them out and post them at some point. Your's has been the only link to the other people who travelled over that I have ever found! The list of men can be found on Ellis Island website. Best wishes.