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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: pwh on Saturday 12 March 11 09:15 GMT (UK)
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My great great grandmother Nora ann Gates arrived on the Royal Dane at Keppel
Bay Queensland Australia 25/7/1865., Her obiturary states that her married sister
came on rhe same ship with her husband William Carr. The only problem is that
no one can find any record of a marriage between a Gates and william Carr in
english records. Can some one solve this mystery?
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hi found this marriage william carr -alice gates wed lancaster sep 1842 vol21 p229
trevor
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The marriage is too early to be a sister of Nora b.1847.
A thread on the GATES family.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,519965.0.html
Cando
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Hi pwh,
Obituaries are similar to death certificates in that the information supplied is only as reliable as the informant's knowledge, and information is sometimes confused over a long period of time like this. The best purchase that you could make is Ann's first marriage certificate. This would give you information on Edward GREEN from your other post and hopefully also give the first name of this sister as a witness perhaps. I notice that Ann was not married until just after her 21st birthday, and wonder if there was some objection to her marrying this fellow especially as her daughter was already 7 months old. I am not sure if an older sister would have the authority to refuse permission to marry, but perhaps her husband would in the absence of parents.
I have been trying to find Ann's two known married sisters Margaret and Clara on the 1871 census to ensure that they remained in England but have had no luck so far in identifying them.
It appears that the passenger list for the 1865 voyage of the Royal Dane has not survived, but it would be worth double checking with Queensland Archives.
Debra :)
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This would give you information on Edward GREEN from your other post DEBRA
I agree with DEBRA.
On your EDWARD GREEN thread the suggestion was made in REPLY #26 that you make this purchse in order to move forward in your searches.
Sue
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Dundee
A search of the Qld archives does not show a willam Carr arriving on the
Royal Dane, but there is a reference in the Rockhampton Morning Bulletin of
12/7/1936 under the heading Royal Dane List of a Bill Carr coming on that Ship
He went to Townsville in the1870s where he became head of the board of the
Townsville meatworks. I contacted the Central Qld Family History Assocation
for help. The secretary e-mailed me that they could not find any trace a Gates/
Green marriage. Then came the real surprise. Ann Sabina Gates , according
to her birth certificate was the daughter of a John Gates and an Ann Torkington.
More mysteries
Pwh
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Something is not quite right here. According to available information; freeBMD\census reports, there were 7 children born to Robert Gates and Bridget Bolin.
ALL the daughters appear to be accounted for and were married in the UK except for Ann who was married in Qld. The only daughter NOT accounted for is Mary Ann who in 1865 would have only been 8 years old. Unless there was another much older sister I can’t see how it is possible that she arrived with another [married] sister.
Clara m Alfred Jenkins Dec 1866 at age 25
Francis m Harriet Hawkins [widow] Jan 1879 age 36
Margaret m Joseph Keeling Feb 1865 at age 20
Ann Norah m Henry Hart Ed Green then Henry Hart at ages 21 & 23
Christopher died early ca 1872 at age 22
Mary Ann Gates unk
Robert Gates unk
I realize the obi says: -
“Ann North Gates, at the age of 18, arrived in Rockhampton with her married sister and the latter's husband (Mr. and Mrs. William Carr) by the Royal Dane”
BUT, aside from the obituary is there any other evidence to confirm that Ann arrive with the others?
I am starting to believe that someone’s memory was not quite right or the story got mixed up as it was passed down over the years.
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Just for interest from the1868 Queensland PO Directory there was a John Torkington, Blacksmith at St Lawrence which is about 100 km north of Rockhampton.
Regards
Gerry
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The secretary e-mailed me that they could not find any trace a Gates/
Green marriage. Then came the real surprise. Ann Sabina Gates , according
to her birth certificate was the daughter of a John Gates and an Ann Torkington.
More mysteries Pwh
Peter this was adressed in your other thread. May I respectfully suggest that you pour over the information that has been provided to you with a fine tooth comb to prevent any double up, both from your side as well as r\chatters who spend a lot of time searching for information in order to assist you. I know I have spent a good 2\3 hours this afternoon searching for infomation and trying to sort it all out :) Also it is etiquette to throw out the odd "thank you" now and again to all those that do assist in your research
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,518883.0.html.
There is an Ann Sabina Gates born 1868 ref C2349 to a John Gates and Ann Torkington. Appears to be a different family altogether.
[Would suggest thought that] John Gates and Ann Norah Gates are possibly related due to their child having the same name.
Regards
Jon
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I thought this would be her:
1868
C2781
page 5223
GATES
Unnamed Female
Mother: Ann GATES
The other entry registered earlier:
1868
C2349
page 5221
GATES
Ann Sabina
Father: John GATES
Mother: Ann TORKINGTON
On the face of it I would say these are two different children however both dates of birth are 18 May. My conspiracy theory is that the birth father was a man named TORKINGTON, the names reversed to appear legitimate. There were TORKINGTONs in Queensland. Again, you would have to consult the original documents.
I am not sure what you mean by there being no trace of a GATES/GREEN marriage, do you mean GATES/CARR?
Queensland
Edward GREEN
Anne Norah GATES
8 Dec 1868
Reg Number: C484
Page Number: 5691
You won't find William CARR on the Royal Dane because as far as I can see the passenger list has not survived apart from some cabin passengers.
Hopefully Gerry will come along and help us out with this William CARR as I think he has some early Queensland directories that he can check.
Ah, I see he already on the case!! ;D
Debra :)
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Couple of good points there Debra. Based on the same birth dates it is more than likely that the two births are one and the same. Although not sure why there would have been two registrations.
So based on the above we have: -
Ann Norah Gates has a child in May 1868 possibly to a John Torkington. [A quick relationship then ensues and 6 months later Ann marries marries [in Dec 1868] to Ed Green.
Something happens with the relationship over a period of 18 months, Ed is either deceased or off the scene, and Ann then in turns marries Hyam Henry Hart.
Jon
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Information that i have just recieved would seem to indicate that that William
Carr married Margaret Sabina Gates b 12/1845 in St Pancras london. She does
not seem to be with her parents in 1861 and can not be located. My information says
that she did arrive on the Royal Dane with her sister ann Norah. She was
apparantly a widow whose husband had died a month after the marriage. She is
supposed to have married William Carr on board the Royal Dane. They
settled in the Gaviel Creek area of Rockhampton. Ann Norahs obituary says that
William Carr worked at Pattisons slaughteryards at Gaviel Creek. " Battlers"
article printed in the Rockhampton Morning Bulletin a week after Ann Norah Hart
died says the same. In the article "Battler" refers to William Carr as Bill Carr and
also refers to Ann Norah Hart as Mrs Harry Hart. Harry might have been a nickname
for Henry Hart.This would seem to indicate that Battler would have known the Harts
and the Carrs. Battler also says that Bill Carr was a butcher in Rockhampton till
he went to Townsville in the1870s and became head of the board of the Townsville
meat works.
peter
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Peter
Marriage in 1865 Pancras, Middlesex, London Q1 Vol 1b Page 119
Death 1865 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Q1 Vol 8b Page 94 [It's the only one that fits if Margaret arrived in Australia in July 1865]
Seems a bit of a stretch to say that Margaret was married in Feb, a widow in March and then remarries in June\July enroute to Australia. Although stranger things have happened!
There does not appear to be a death in Qld for a Margaret Carr with parents Robert and Bridget.
There does not appear to be any children born to William & Margaret Carr in Qld.
There does not appear to be any marriage in Qld for a Margaret Keeling nee Gates
Jon
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Now we are getting somewhere, but a bit of a different story...
Death
Carlton, Victoria
1924
Margt Sabina PHILLIPS
Age: 78
Father: Robt GATES
Mother: Annorah BOLAN
#4585
Possibly buried at Fawkner listed as Margaret F.
Marriage
Victoria
1874
Margaret Sabina GATES
William GREENOUGH
#3512
Goodness me :o :o
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cbr/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cbp/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cbq/
Debra :)
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Wow! Good work Debra. Well done! Completly different story.
Long story short: -
Margaret married Joseph Keeling in London and they BOTH arrived in Australia. Joseph was reported as being a BUTCHER in Queensland and that he was already married when he and Margaret married.
Margaret then in turn, married a William Greenough.
William Greenough then remarried to a Letitia Armstrong and is subsequently charged with bigamy as he was still married to Margaret.
Months later Margaret abuses William’s ’current’ wife with insulting language and in turn gives old William a bit of a touch up by ‘pulling his hirsute appendages, breaking his pipe and trampling upon his belltopper’ [Belltopper = Victoria style Top Hat]
Goodness...it’s almost comical if it wasn't so serious.
An interesting read for those that want to have a look at the newspaper articles that Debra has provided the links to.
Jon
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Debra
Margaret died as a Phillips? Is ther any trace of the marriage?
Jon
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I wonder if this is the same couple:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cbs/
...and the ad
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cbt/
I am interested in the fact that Margaret was pushing a perambulator, but there is never any mention of children, even in the earlier maintenance case.
There is a possible marriage in NSW, but who knows what name she would have married under:
1887
PHILLIPS EDWARD H
GREENOUGH MARGARET
(MOAMA)
#5965
There are no children showing for this couple which is promising as Margaret GATES would have been around 42.
Debra :)
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This thread certainly makes 'interesting' reading ;) ::) Good detective work Debra :D
.......Margaret married Joseph Keeling in London and they BOTH arrived in Australia. Joseph was reported as being a BUTCHER in Queensland and that he was already married when he and Margaret married.
Margaret then in turn, married a William Greenough......
Jon
And it would appear Joseph had other partners as well ::)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cbw/
Cheers...and keep up the good work ;D
Cando
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No mention of any children at all is there...
Is there any birth or death record for William Greenough. If there is and his mothers name is Mary then most likely the latest two articles relate to our Margaret.
Jon
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Electoral Roll
1909/1914/1919
25 Argyle Square
Carlton
Edward Nathan PHILLIPS, gentleman/independant means
Margaret Subena PHILLIPS, home duties
Death
Carlton, Victoria
1921
Edw Nathan PHILLIPS
Age: 81
Father: Harry PHILLIPS
#4866
Buried at Fawkner
Good grief, it is looking as though Edward was related to Ann GATES husband Henry HART! A bit more detective work needed.
Debra :)
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According to the marriage reg in 1874, Wm GREENOUGH was born in Liverpool and there are a number of births of that name in the period.
However there is this death... :-\
GREENOUGH Wm
Father John Greenough Mother Mary Stolden
At Collingwood 71 years 1924 Reg#5093
Cheers
Cando
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He is on electoral rolls in Collingwood as a stonemason (which tallies with news reports) with an Elizabeth. There is a marriage in 1901 to Elizabeth HALIFAX.
Debra :)
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And
1861 Census shows Wm with parents Mary and John.
Marriages Dec 1845
GREENOUGH John Liverpool 20/318
HOLDEN Mary Liverpool 20/318
Death in Vic
GREENOUGH Mary
Father William HOLDEN Mother Kath Fadlkner
At Hotham 82 years 1908 Reg#10075
Cando
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This thread certainly makes 'interesting' reading ;) ::) Good detective work Debra :D
And it would appear Joseph had other partners as well ::)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cbw/
Cheers...and keep up the good work ;D
Cando
And while Jane Keeling was up on charges of stabbing one Joseph Keeling; Ann Gates nee Green was up on a perjury case.
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According to the marriage reg in 1874, Wm GREENOUGH was born in Liverpool and there are a number of births of that name in the period.
However there is this death... :-\
GREENOUGH Wm
Father John Greenough Mother Mary Stolden
At Collingwood 71 years 1924 Reg#5093
Cando
Looks like the two other links that Debra posted belong to our Margaret. Looks like the Mum in law was a real piece of work.
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Great Work Debra. ;D I wonder if there is anything in this. (The pram perhaps) Though is it is the same woman she seems rather more respectable than we have previously seen. (Ah Just seen Debra's Electoral Roll entry for Edward Phillips - gentleman)
Police Gazette 23 Sep 1885
MARY O'SHEA is charged, on warrant, with stealing a child from Margaret Greenough, 101 Flinders Street East, Melbourne, on the 21st instant. Description :-Irish, about 26 years of age, about 5 feet 2 inches high, very stout build, dark complexion, brown hair, long nose ; wore a black cloak ; lisps when speaking ; no better description. The child's name is Margaret Alleyne. Description:-4 years of age, stout build, tall for her age, fair complexion, short brown hair ; wore dark small-plaid dress, a holland pinafore with red trimming, striped stockings, lace-up boots, and dark-plush felt hat ; calls herself Maggie Phillips. The child belonged to complainant by adoption.-0.5574. 22nd September 1885.
Police Gazette 7 Oct 1885
MARY O'SHEA has been arrested by the Nhill police for stealing a child from Margaret Greenough, and the child has been recovered.- 0.5574. 3rd October 1885.
Seems Mary O'Shea was the girls birth mother.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18876027?
Cheers Kris :)
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Saw that article and was jsut readign about it. Could just about write a novel with all the goings on with this family.
J
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Well, they certainly didn't lead boring lives!!
Now I wonder if William CARR was a figment of someone's imagination (though Peter has evidence that he existed), a real person who Margaret had a relationship with before moving south, or are we looking for another sister? I still can't find an 1871 census match for Clara GATES who married Alfred JENKIN in 1866 in London.
Debra :)
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Debra
I am still waiting on further feedback on your comment: -
"Good grief, it is looking as though Edward was related to Ann GATES husband Henry HART! A bit more detective work needed"
William Carr may have existed but there is nothing to tie him in with Margaret Keeling nee Gates. Margaret's relationship broke down sometime between 1865 -1870 when we find Joseph is already living with a Jane 'Keeling" At best it may have been a casual relationship.
Seeing that both Joseph aand Margaret arrived in Australia there is no veracity to the family history that they married on board on the way out. Unless it was another sister, but the only ones old enough would have been Clara who appears to have married in Bethal Green
in 1866 to Alfred Jenkins
Jon
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Debra
I am still waiting on further feedback on your comment: -
"Good grief, it is looking as though Edward was related to Ann GATES husband Henry HART! A bit more detective work needed"
Jon
I was getting a bit over excited ;D The names Nathan, Phillips, Hyam and Hart are fairly prolific Jewish names and there are many people with combinations of them.
Debra :)
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The Argus Friday 10 March 1882 reported: -
"William Greenough, charged with bigamy. Previous to this it is alleged that he had been married to another woman named Gades [sic] or Carr, from whom he separated but obtained no legal divorce"
There is that Carr name raising it's head again. I'm strating to think that Joseph and Margaret Keeling came out under an assumed name IE Mr. & Mrs. Wm. Carr to escape authorities or possible prosecution?
Jon
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I came across an article in the Rockhampton Bulletin and Central Quuensland
Advertiser of 29/7/1865 that during the voyage of the Royal Dane at least four
adults died. Perhaps one of them was Ann Norahs sisters first husband.Food for
thought is it not?
Regards Peter
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I came across an article in the Rockhampton Bulletin and Central Quuensland
Advertiser of 29/7/1865 that during the voyage of the Royal Dane at least four
adults died. Perhaps one of them was Ann Norahs sisters first husband.Food for
thought is it not?
Regards Peter
Peter
Margaret Gates's first husband was Joseph Keeling. They married Feb 1865 and are in Queensland by Jul 1865.
Both Joseph and Margaret Keeling [nee Gates] arrived in Australia and Joseph plied his trade as a butcher. Margaret went her separate way for whatever reason, knowing that Joseph was was still married to Jane Reeves in the UK.
She finds her way to Victoria where she marries William Greenough and then later Edward Nathan Phillips in NSW. She later dies in VIC.
If you read thru all the newspaper items that I sent you, you will see that just after Joseph and Margaret married in the UK, his first wife Jane came knocking at the door to let Margaret know that Joseph was already married. Margaret appears to leave Joseph for a while but they then get back together again and come out to Australia.
Perhaps as a vengeful first wife Jane, notified the authorities who were hot on his trail. He convinces Margaret to get back together with him and to start a new life in the colonies and at the same time also assumes a false name to enable himself and Margaret to get out of the country.
Again if you read the newspaper items you will see that Margaret declares at one stage that she left Joseph Keeling in QLD. ;D
Jon
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Hi Peter,
May I please butt in ...
Firstly, Well Done to all those that have been helping you on this thread. Thank you Peter for starting this thread.
I have re-read all the posts on this thread....
When there's any deaths on the voyages, these are usually noted in the ship's log, along with the name of the deceased, and written up in that log on the day the burial at sea occured... However, I can see from reading this thread that it is not possible that any one of those four was Ann Norah's sister's first husband, and that Jon has explained this in detail and clearly in the reply to your latest query (reply #32).
But what an interesting story has come to light. I think there's a book waiting for you to pen.
Cheers, JM.
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Hi Everyone,
Peter has kindly posted some info on his current thread on the Bedfordshire board, and I think it may be of interest on this thread as well.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,579751.10.html Reply # 18
The link to the Illustrated Australian News of 20 Feb 1884 is http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/63185846 and it includes:
:) details of Jane Reeve’s marriage to Joseph Keeling in 1859 at Leighton Buzzard, the birth of their son, Joseph Keeling a few months late, and then Joseph Keeling’s marriage to Margaret Gates in 1865, and that couple sailed to Queensland, then their separation.
:) Margaret next married William Greenough in Fitzroy, Victoria in 1874, and the witnesses to that marriage are named in the article.
:) Then six years later, William Greenough marries an elderly lady, Letitia Armstrong on 7 Sept 1880 at Albury, NSW.
:) In 1882, a ‘loose woman’ named Ann Cummins has William Greenough arrested for bigamy. The Mayor, presiding at the bench determined that Greenough was to be discharged, and thus Greenough was “carried off in triumph by his faithful Letitia, whilst the irate Margaret, who had certainly increased in bulk since she was first wooed by the deceptive Keeling, went away dubious as to whether she was Mrs Greenough, Mrs Keeling or still plain Margaret Zebina Gates”.
Cheers, JM
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Jm
There question of who William Carr was is still mystery. To my knowledge no trace him
has ever been found here or in England. But some one calling himself William Carr was in Rockhampton in 1865. He is mentioned by that name in Ann Norah Harts(Gates) obitutary
printed in the Mornring Bulletin(Rockhampton) on 7/11/1865. On 12/11/1865 an article
headed Royal Dane List, the last survior he is mmentioned again . The writer was a man
named Pattison who wrote under the name"Battler". I researched him and found that
his father had been a butcher in Rockhampton in 1863, before Carr arrived. So it would be
safe to assume that :Battlers father must have known him ipersonally. The website is
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article54974681. Another mystery to sole if i can.
Regards
Peter
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@JM
Thanx for the heads up. Greatly appreciated
Jon
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Jm
There question of who William Carr was is still mystery. To my knowledge no trace him
has ever been found here or in England. But some one calling himself William Carr was in Rockhampton in 1865. He is mentioned by that name in Ann Norah Harts(Gates) obitutary
printed in the Mornring Bulletin(Rockhampton) on 7/11/1865. On 12/11/1865 an article
headed Royal Dane List, the last survior he is mmentioned again . The writer was a man
named Pattison who wrote under the name"Battler". I researched him and found that
his father had been a butcher in Rockhampton in 1863, before Carr arrived. So it would be
safe to assume that :Battlers father must have known him ipersonally. The website is
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article54974681. Another mystery to sole if i can.
Regards
Peter
Peter, something is amiss.
The article you are referring to as Ann Norah GATES obit, well it could not have appeared in any newspaper in 1865. She died in 1936 and her death was registered in Qld.
May I quote from the 1936 Obit ".... Bill Carr was a noted early day butcher, but who went North in the seventies and for many years ..... "
So, according to the writer ("Battler") of that 1936 Obit, Bill Carr was not in FNQ until the 1870s.
Do you have Ann Norah HART's d.c. ? The Qld BDM online index gives the reference as C3335.
Cheers, JM
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My great great grandmother Nora ann Gates arrived on the Royal Dane at Keppel
Bay Queensland Australia 25/7/1865., Her obiturary states that her married sister
came on rhe same ship with her husband William Carr. The only problem is that
no one can find any record of a marriage between a Gates and william Carr in
english records. Can some one solve this mystery?
Peter, something else is amiss.
I have now read, RE-READ, and read again ..... the Obit from http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/54974681 Morning Bulletin 12 September 1936 and I cannot see where it states that Nora Ann GATES's married sister came on the same ship as Nora. Also I cannot see where that same obit says that Nora's married sister's husband was William Carr or that William Carr was also on that voyage. In fact, the Bill Carr who is mentioned in that Obit is not referred to as being married, or being on that voyage.
Have you read the pre marriage notice that appeared in the Morning Bulletin 3 May 1944 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/56306726 ..... in what way would the bride be connected to Mrs Harry HART?
Cheers, JM
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JM - An earlier OBIT.....From The Morning Bulletin Monday 7 September 1936
A. N. HART
Death of Old Identity
"Another link of the chain of Rockhampton's earliest pioneers was severed on Saturday with the passing of Mrs. A. N. Hart in her ninetieth year. A former well known midwifery nurse, Mrs. Hart saw Rockhampton and several of its prominent, citizens grow from their infancy.
The mother of 17 children [11 of whom pre-deceased her], Mrs. Hart had 42 grandchildren and more than 20 great grandchildren.
A far greater number however, felt the care of her loving hand, for during her 40 years activity as a midwifery nurse, she assisted in the bringing into the world of 1125 babies.
Born in London on November 7 1847, Ann North Gates, at the age of 18, arrived in
Rockhampton with her married sister and the latter's husband (Mr. and Mrs. William Carr) by the Royal Dane, the vessel anchoring in Keppel Bay on July 25, 1865"
The article is incorrect inthat she had 17 children, as, after extensive research there appears to only be 13 from two marriages. These 13 children tie in with the death cert of her husband who died 29 years prior to Ann.
Clearly Margaret and her husband were travelling under assumed names. Problably because of her husband's prior marriage.
Jon
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Thanks for sorting that out Jon. Yes, clearly these were assumed names, and there's not really any mystery still to be solved. As you have noted, there's other "factoids" in the article that can be disproved.
Cheers, JM
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The Anne Norah Hart in the 3/5/1944 notice is my mother, Ann Norah Harts(Gates)
grand daughter.
Peter
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A trip to my local library revealed among other things that William Carr(Joseph Keeling?)
made at least two voyages to Sydney. The first was on the 18/12/1851. He returned to
Sydney on the James Patterson , leaving Rockhampton on 25/8/1867. Whether he returned
to Rockhampton is as yet unclear.
Pwh
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Peter
Long post & am throwing a cat among the pigeons here..!
Did you ever find\obtain a copy of the shipping manifect to see who was actually listed on the Great Dane on the voyage out?
The reason I ask is that I have been going thru some records I had sent you and aside from the numerous mentions of William and Margaret Carr, in either obits or court cases to do with bigamy, we also have numerous mentions during this period of Joseph Keeling, from: -
The Brisbane Courier Friday 27 July 1866
The under mentioned IMMIGRANTS, per Royal Dane, who arrived in this Colony in July, 1865, are requested to forward their respective addresses to the Immigration Office, viz:
John Drew, James Hancock, James Eussou, G. Godfrey, William Edwards, John Kane, James Sullivan, James Kimo, Alfred Wainwright, Thompson Hollingsworth., John Moore, James Howorth, Joseph Keeling, John Willies, and William Pearce.
Then there are stealing charges against him in 1867 as well as a drunk and disorderly, as well as an abusive language against Joseph Keeling butcher in 1870. There is also an unlawful wounding against him by his common law wife? Jane in the same year.
Then in 1873 we have Williiam Carr advertising for 6 good mutton butchers.
All is quiet until 1889 when Joseph Keeling applies for crown land to grow grapes near Mount Morgan in central Queensland.
I thought I had this sorted with Mr. and Mrs. Wm Carr being aliases used by Margaret and her husband, due to the fact that William was currently still married. However, the newspaper report from July 1865 would seem to indicate that Joseph Keeling was the actual passenger on the voyage out. No mention of Margaret his wife though.
Could they have changed their names just AFTER they arrived in Rockhampton?
Could, AFTER this couple separated, William Carr reverted to his real name of Joseph Keeling?
If so then why advertise for butchers under the name of William Carr in 1873?
There is a break between 1873 until 1889 when Joseph Keeling is back in the area. Certainly enough time to head to Townsville to run the meatworks up there.BUT, under the name of William Carr?
Is it possible there was a Joseph Keeling as well as William and Margaret Carr on the voyage out? A VERY long shot, but just putting it out there!!
Still a lot of work to be done to sort this out.
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Hi there,
From Auckland into Sydney on 2 August 1859 there is a Mrs and Mrs KEELING with a child, on the vessel Moa.
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au
So there could well be several families with the surname KEELING in the colonies in the 1860s.
Also, there was a Captain William CARR in 1851, his vessel was the Oriental and the July-Sept 1851 voyage from Batavia into Port Jackson saw his wife accompany him. I doubt he would become a butcher in FNQ in the 1870s.
Cheers, JM
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Jon
The more you dig into this quite extraordinary saga the more confusing and bizarre
it gets. You will recall that on Ann Norahs obit there is a refence by name
to William Carr but no mention of the name of Ann norahs married sister. Given the
evidence that would have to be Magaret. That begs the question why,but i think i have
the ansewr to that. By the time the whole saga was unfolding over several colonies and a
succession of court cases , Ann Norah ,who had herself at one time been charged with
perjury in this matter, was a midwife, a position of some respecibility in Rockhampton.
If you use the link to the Illustrated Australian News of 20/2/1884 , in a previous post
you will see that Magaret is reported as running a brothel in Melbourne under the name
pf Mrs Smith. Given the conventions of the time i think that Ann would have gone to great lengths to bury the family scandal. As for the Royal Dane passenger list that is still not
found.
Regards
Peter
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Jm
There were indeed other Keelings in the colonies, but i cant see a connection
between those Keelings and our Joseph.
Peter
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Hi,
Unclaimed letters for March 1868
Miss S. A. Keeling, Rockhampton.
Unclaimed letters for March 1871
Joe Keeling, Rockhampton.
Unclaimed letters for July 1875
Joseph Keeling, Rockhampton.
Queensland Government Gazette, 31st July 1870.
Business Licence for the Rockhampton Gold Fields.
793, Joseph Keeling.
Regards
Gerry
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:)
Queensland Government Gazette, Saturday 22 July 1865
Returns of all applications for Timber Licenses, made to the Bench of Magistrates at Clermont,from the 1st day of January to the 30th day of June, 1865, both inclusive.
William CARR, £1, granted a Hardwood licence.
So it seems to me that there was already another William Carr in Queensland when the Royal Dane arrived in Queensland in July 1865.
Cheers, JM
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David,
I have come across another newspaper article regarding Magaret Keeling. Wiliam
Greenough appeared in a Melbourne court charged with bigamy. The article in the Argus
is dated 14/2/1884. One of the witnesses was Joseph Keeling , the son of our Joseph.
In his evidence he remembered living with his parents in London, just prior to His fathers
hasty departure to Australia. He also said that he resided at Leighton Buzzard, and had
arrived in Victoris "on the 31st ult". I take that to mean he arrived in Victoria on 31/1/1884.
He said he last saw his mother on7/12/1883. Can you confirm that he was living in Leighton Buzzard in 1883? You can read the article for yourself on
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/article/11845075?searchTerm-m.
Thanks
Peter
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hi
Who is this William Carr?
http://www.cqhistory.com/wiki/pmwiki.php/Events/Ship-TheBeejapore
Muss
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Hi Peter
Is this particular post actually meant for your thread on the Bedfordshire board or is it for your thread about Jane Keeling and son on the Australian board or for your thread about Margarget Greenough on the Australian Board ...
Cheers JM
David,
I have come across another newspaper article regarding Magaret Keeling. Wiliam
Greenough appeared in a Melbourne court charged with bigamy. The article in the Argus
is dated 14/2/1884. One of the witnesses was Joseph Keeling , the son of our Joseph.
In his evidence he remembered living with his parents in London, just prior to His fathers
hasty departure to Australia. He also said that he resided at Leighton Buzzard, and had
arrived in Victoris "on the 31st ult". I take that to mean he arrived in Victoria on 31/1/1884.
He said he last saw his mother on7/12/1883. Can you confirm that he was living in Leighton Buzzard in 1883? You can read the article for yourself on
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/article/11845075?searchTerm-m.
Thanks
Peter
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You can read the article for yourself on http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/article/11845075?searchTerm-m.
Peter
The link you posted does not appear to be working. For me at least. I get a "Oops page does not exist" message
Jon
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Jm,
Given the fact that most of the central characters in this saga are in both threads
i would think that they are different chapters of the same story.
Peter
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jon,
i found that too. If the problem persists you might have to go into the Trove site and put in
"Magaret Greenough bigamy case". Thats how i found it.
Peter
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Peter
It is becoming very confusing to me.
I mentioned three threads and you reply 'both'. You addressed the particular post to 'David' so may I note that David usually is found on the Bedfordshire Board. I don't know how to check if someone was living in Bedfordshire in 1883.
I also do not know why you would need to check this detail unless it conflicts with some known information about Jane Reeve's son Joseph Keeling. Do you have the marriage certificate for the Joseph Keeling who married in NSW in the 1890s Does something on that mc conflict with the info in the article of 1884 perhaps?
Cheers JM
Jm,
Given the fact that most of the central characters in this saga are in both threads
i would think that they are different chapters of the same story.
Peter
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Some thoughts
There are two known Obits 1936 for Mrs HART that mention CARR. Is it likely the second one was the newspaper's way of overcoming an embarassing error in the first one? That is ... that noone travelled under the names of Mr and/or Mrs William Carr on that voyage and that a reader of the first Obit had Battler prepare the second one showing a Bill Carr arriving in FNQ in the 1870s not in 1865 ... afterall Joseph Keeling is the name Jon found on that 1865 voyage ?
Mrs Hart's role as a midwife may well have been similar to other midwives in that ra ... Assisting women who did not carry their pregnancy to full term?
Cheers JM
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JM
Was starting to think along the lines that you were. That the first obit and the mention of Ann and her married sister (Mr. & Mrs. William Carr) was an error in so much there was a Keeling on the voyage out, presumably with his wife, AND also a William Carr. Both of these gentleman BTW were butchers by trade according to the newspaper accounts.
Started to think that these names became intertwined for some reason and the confusion continued. After all that obit mentions 17 children but official records from d\certs only show 12 to this marriage and one to her (Ann's) first marriage to Green. Total 13.
"Battler" in his obit writes: - "Mrs. Harry Hart must surely be the last of the Rockhampton residents who arrived by the Royal Dane in July, 1865. Other single girls who came out and married were the late Mrs. W. K. Higson, Mrs. J. T. S. Bird, and Mrs. Con. Hourigan. Among the married were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Hitchcock, Mr. and Mrs. .T. W. Power, and Mr. and Mrs. W. J. Wright. Bill Carr was a noted early day butcher, but who went North in the seventies and for many years led the board at the meat works at Townsville" etc
Doesn't it seem odd the way the article launches straight into Bill Carr was a noted.....etc. There does not appear to be any continuity to the article\sentences. It's like there was cut and paste or whatever it was called in the day. Something is missing!! Or me english ain't proper.
There are significant reports in the papers for Joseph Keeling being around during the 60's & 70"s and a final hurray in the late 90's when he wants crown land to grow grapes. There is a brief mention of Wm. Carr wanting to hire butchers in the early 70's. IF these gentlemen WERE one and the same why would they\he be swapping between names?
HOWEVER..There is always a however....!!!
In the Argus, Friday 10 March 1882: - ....Greenough charged with bigamy. It was stated that some two years ago previous to this (his current marriage) it is alleged that he had been married to another woman named Gades[sic] or Carr, from whom he separated but obtained no legal divorce.
This then begs the question..Where did the reporter (In Victoria) get the information from that his (Greenough's) first wife was a Gates\Carr. It could only have come from Margaret Gates herself who, incidentally, was pressing charges, and who married under her maiden name of Gates, obviously wanting to hide her past.
Just spitballing here......I wonder if, after Margaret and Joseph Keeling went their seperate ways, that Margaret and William Carr forged a relationship for a period of time and the fact that both gentlemen were butchers and that they also came out on the same ship, that it has all helped in the later confusion as to who her (Margaret's) husband actually was.
It is about the only logical explanation left.
Jon
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Bill was already at Clermont QLD when Joseph arrived in FNQ with Margaret. Margaret trvelled as Jane Keeling. Jane nver came to Oz. Argaret was the common law wife in the assault of Joseph. Aqrgaret then took up with Bill. That failed too. Argaret then went to Vic. Mrs Hart was embarassed with her sister. Joseph KEeling Snr returned to Bedford and his eldest son came to Vic with proof that his parents were stillmarried. HE then stayed in Aust and fiddled a cash cheque for ten bob and seved 3 yrs with Hard Labour as punishment.
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JM
Are these just observations?
Margaret could have travelled as Jane but I think it was another Jane that stabbed Joseph. IIRC he said in one report "It's just a woman I live with" I think he and Margaret went their separate ways probs around the mid 60's. Again there is a report somewhere I think to do with the bigamy case that said they separated shortly after their arrival. If that was the case that would give Margaret an almost an 8 year window to meet and develop a relationship with William Carr before she shows up in Melbourne being married to Greenough in 1874.
I don't think Joseph Keeling senior went back to the UK. Remember he was still around in Queensland in 1893. Unless he went back and then returned again to Qld. Joseph junior came out in 1884.
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JM
Are these just observations?
Margaret could have travelled as Jane but I think it was another Jane that stabbed Joseph. IIRC he said in one report "It's just a woman I live with" I think he and Margaret went their separate ways probs around the mid 60's. Again there is a report somewhere I think to do with the bigamy case that said they separated shortly after their arrival. If that was the case that would give Margaret an almost an 8 year window to meet and develop a relationship with William Carr before she shows up in Melbourne being married to Greenough in 1874.
I don't think Joseph Keeling senior went back to the UK. Remember he was still around in Queensland in 1893. Unless he went back and then returned again to Qld. Joseph junior came out in 1884.
Hi there,
I apologise for my inadequate post, my excuse being it was typed up from a tiny wifi keyboard.
Clermont is in FNQ, and the coastal port/s that would have serviced it in the 1860/s and 1870/s would be either Rockhampton or Mackay.
So, I think it is very likely that the William CARR with a Timber Licence to obtain HARDWOOD in and around Clermont in the six months BEFORE the Royal Dane brought Joseph KEELING to FNQ could therefore be the same William CARR as mentioned in the first of the two obits for Mrs HART. I mentioned that information at #48, and provided the source (Qld Govt Gazette, hopefully that would be a reliable source). I think that Muss at # 50 of this very thread has provided that William CARR’s likely arrival with a wife and children to FNQ on that voyage.
I think the second obit for Mrs HART is basically over-riding some of the “factoidal information” in the first one, and in particular it draws the reader’s attention to Bill CARR and explains why that person was not part of Mrs HART’s life back when she, as Miss GATES arrived on the Royal Dane to Rockhampton in July 1865.
I notice that on Peter’s thread on the Bedfordshire board that David has provided some information from TNA’s A2A indexes. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,579751.0.html reply #21. Clearly that Mrs KEELING, ie Jane REEVE did not come to Australia. Her husband had deserted her several years before Margaret GATES married Joseph KEELING.
There is the marriage of a Joseph KEELING in NSW in 1893 mentioned in Trove and indexed on NSW BDM. A transcript of that mc may help determine who were the witnesses, and also if that was Jane REEVE’s son who married. There’s mention of the 1884 charges and sentence of a Joseph KEELING at Albury NSW. Was that his father who was back at in the UK by the time of that marriage as per the newspaper announcement http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,580149.0.html
Edited to sort out some grammar.
Cheers, JM
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JM
I saw Muss's post about the Wm Carr and family who arrived in 1863 two years before Joseph and Margaret Keeling. This could well be THE Wm. Carr.
However I don't believe Wm. Carr the Timber Getter would be the one that was involved with Margaret. Clermont was a very long distance by dray back in the 1860's and Wm. the timber getter and family would be well entrenched out in the middle of nowhere. He wouldn't have been in Rockhampton long enough to forge a permanent relationship with Margaret; one that would later tag her as Mrs. Wm. Carr.
Our Joseph Keeling was a butcher by trade and by association, would have run in the same circles as Wm. Carr. In fact Ann Norah's obit states her sister Margaret's husband William Carr or Joseph Keeling, (take your pick) states "Her brother-in-law obtained a situation at Pattison's slaughter yards a Gavial Creek" Perhaps William Carr \ Joseph Keeling worked for the same company.
This was the Wm. Carr advertising for mutton butchers in Rockhampton in 1871. An obit mentioned in 1936 that a W. Carr "a noted early day butcher" went north an managed the meat works at Townsville.
Reports indicate that Joseph Keeling and Margaret went their separate ways shortly after their arrival in the colony. Having arrived in 1865 I would suggest around 1866 at the latest. Remember Joseph was being stabbed by Jane "a women who lives with him" in July of 1867.
A Wm. Carr was advertising for mutton butchers in 1871 in Rockhampton in 1871 with an obit later mentioning that a W. Carr "a noted early day butcher" went north an managed the meat works at Townsville.
Given Margaret and Joseph went their separate way in 1866, I believe Margaret forged a relationship with said Wm. Carr butcher, and for which she has been remembered for ever since, because of William's renown as "a noted early day butcher"
This relationship could have endured for anywhere up to 6\7 years with William heading north and Margaret later heading south where she married Wm. Greenough in 1874
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Newly cut Hardwood timber was removed by bullock teams and taken to seaports for shipment to cities. Timber cutters needed to be bullock drivers. Bullock drivers needed to know how to butcher animals properly to feed themselves and their families. Clermont timber went to what market?
Cheers JM
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My great great Uncle was a timber cutter and a droving captain from Longreach to Bourke and down to Hay and to Victoria and to Sth Aust. from 1869 until he retired when WWI saw many of his plant enlist. All his sons were reknown for their slaughtering and tanning skills. Several were also excelling at shearing. I have photos of Rockhampton from c1875 with him and his growing family. Most of his details are in his diaries and plant tallies on their upto 14 month droving return journeys.
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Hi Peter
I have noticed you have been online since my recent posts ... May ask for your comments please ... It will be kind of you to attend to that small task and so let anyone reading your current threads re the larger saga know where you are at ...so that they can help you further...
Cheers JM
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Jm
iI was looking on the Trove site and have just seen your post. Given the twists and turns of this whole saga what yoiu are saying could be right . i will look at them carefully and get back to you
Thanks
Peter
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hi
Who is this William Carr?
http://www.cqhistory.com/wiki/pmwiki.php/Events/Ship-TheBeejapore
Muss
I wonder if any consideration has been given to an alternative spelling for CARR .... I wonder if William and Mary may have had children in Queensland. For example, on the QLD online BDM index, there’s a birth registered for a William CARR in 1863 I think you will find this birth occurred on 9 August 1863 and is referenced C1013. From the link that Muss provided, the ship Beejapore arrived at Keppel Bay on 25 June 1863.
That 9 August 1863 indexed on line gives the parents as William CARR and Mary REDMON. There is a later birth registered in 1866 that is also of interest. The mother’s name is Mary REDMON, the father’s name is William. The surname is indexed as KERR, which if spoken aloud is akin to CARR. That birth ref is C1821.
Qld BDM certificates are quite informative, and should show the place of birth and often show the midwife’s name.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m
And a tip from their website
" 30/6/2010 Update - In response to much feedback, the Wild Card searching functionality is now available on this historical index searching facility. The Wild Card search character to use is '*'."
Cheers, JM
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I can't add attachments to the Keeling thread at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,579751.new.html#new
so I've had to add it to this one
David
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Well I think that confirms that Joseph KEELING and Joseph Rose KEELING are one and the same ;D
Cheers, JM
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Agree wholeheartedly. No doubt at all. It would be interesting to find out what became of Joseph the second..!
Jon
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Agree wholeheartedly. No doubt at all. It would be interesting to find out what became of Joseph the second..!
Jon
Yes, Jon, very interesting ...... as I cannot find him in NSW after his failure to obtain a divorce from Euphemia in 1898. I wonder if Peter's current Aust. thread re Jane Keeling and Son should be updated with references to David's good work on the Bedfordshire thread?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,580149.0.html
Cheers, JM
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jm,
I do have Ann Norah Harts dc.It shows her parents as Robert Gates and Bridget Bolin.
It confirms the first marriage to Edward Green in Rockhampton in 1868, and the second
marriage to Henry Hart , also in Rockhampton the following year.. It says she had six
surviving children from the second marriage,
Joel Benjamin 62
Alfred Usher 58
William Henry 54
Edward Nathan 50
Henry christofer 48
Magaret Isabel 48
But it goes on to say that she had a deceased daughter from the first marriage. That would
be Ann Sabina Lawson(Green) who died 4/9/1921 in Rockhampton aged 52.Then it says
that there were nine deceased sons and one deceased daughter from the marriage to
Henry Hart. The deceased daughter would have to be Amy Cumerford(Hart), who was left
five shillings in the will.It appears she was a madam in Sydney, dying there shortly before
Anns death. Another son Robert Francis who died 30/10/1931 of spyhilis was also left
five shillings. Since the will is dated 27/4/1931, the deaths of those other children
would have to have occured before then. Not all of the alledged 17 children have been
documented. The only thing that might account for them is that they were stillborn or
died in infancy.
Peter
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jm,
I do have Ann Norah Harts dc.It shows her parents as Robert Gates and Bridget Bolin.
It confirms the first marriage to Edward Green in Rockhampton in 1868, and the second
marriage to Henry Hart , also in Rockhampton the following year.. It says she had six
surviving children from the second marriage,
Joel Benjamin 62
Alfred Usher 58
William Henry 54
Edward Nathan 50
Henry christofer 48
Magaret Isabel 48
But it goes on to say that she had a deceased daughter from the first marriage. That would
be Ann Sabina Lawson(Green) who died 4/9/1921 in Rockhampton aged 52.Then it says
that there were nine deceased sons and one deceased daughter from the marriage to
Henry Hart. The deceased daughter would have to be Amy Cumerford(Hart), who was left
five shillings in the will.It appears she was a madam in Sydney, dying there shortly before
Anns death. Another son Robert Francis who died 30/10/1931 of spyhilis was also left
five shillings. Since the will is dated 27/4/1931, the deaths of those other children
would have to have occured before then. Not all of the alledged 17 children have been
documented. The only thing that might account for them is that they were stillborn or
died in infancy. Peter
Hi there,
I am not sure why you are posting this information on your William CARR thread, but :
Is it possible that the elusive children were NOT Ann Norah HARTs children by birth, but perhaps Margaret Sabina GATES may have been their mother, or perhaps they were children born to Ann Norah's patients ?
On the other hand, does the dc read "nine" as a word, or as a number? How reliable was the knowledge of the informant on Ann Norah HARTs d.c. .... remember that if a family member, then he/she would be grieving her loss and may have mis-understood the question, and of course, the person recording that information may also have mis-understood his/her own notes taken during the preparation of the pro forma for the d.c.
For example, I am aware of one d.c. from pre WWII in my own tree, where the document at first reading seems to indicate 14 deceased children to the person who had died. It turns out there were FIVE and not fourteen ..... it was one male and four females, ie 1 4 (1M 4F) .
Cheers, JM
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The report of Ann having 17 children, I believe is an error, [the actual number being 13; one to Green and 12 to Hart)
If we look at Hyam Henry's death certificate we see that Hyam died some 29 years prior to his wife Ann. The correct number of children, both living and deceased, is noted on his death certificate at 12, and further the informant was his son Joel who I believe would have know what siblings he did and didn't have. Additionally this information would have presumably been confirmed and or provided by his mother at the time.
Additinally on the birth certificate of Ann's last child, Margaret, the correct number of children both living and deceased is again confirmed at 12 for this marriage to Hart. The informant is none other than Ann Norah Hart (Gates) herself. Surely a mother would know how many children she did and didn't have.
The informant to Ann's eventual death was H D Hart, grandchild. Given that the informant was 2 generations away from the original births and death I believe this to be an error on the part of HD Hart in providing the information or alternatively the information was incorrectly recorded by the reporter at the time. 12 children; no more no less.
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Hi Jon
I hope you know I consider that your post provides conclusive evidence: 1 child from first marriage and 12 from second. Obviously the grandson's info should not ever be considered as accurate as the info given by Mrs Hart on that bc or on Mr Hart's dc given by their son when Mrs Hart was still very much alive. Peter has Ann Norah's dc so all he needs to do is decide if he wants to verify your post by purchasing either or both the dc for Mr Hart or the bc for the youngest Hart child.
Cheers JM
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Debra
Margaret died as a Phillips? Is ther any trace of the marriage?
Jon
Great Work Debra. ;D I wonder if there is anything in this. (The pram perhaps) Though is it is the same woman she seems rather more respectable than we have previously seen. (Ah Just seen Debra's Electoral Roll entry for Edward Phillips - gentleman)
Police Gazette 23 Sep 1885
MARY O'SHEA is charged, on warrant, with stealing a child from Margaret Greenough, 101 Flinders Street East, Melbourne, on the 21st instant. Description :-Irish, about 26 years of age, about 5 feet 2 inches high, very stout build, dark complexion, brown hair, long nose ; wore a black cloak ; lisps when speaking ; no better description. The child's name is Margaret Alleyne. Description:-4 years of age, stout build, tall for her age, fair complexion, short brown hair ; wore dark small-plaid dress, a holland pinafore with red trimming, striped stockings, lace-up boots, and dark-plush felt hat ; calls herself Maggie Phillips. The child belonged to complainant by adoption.-0.5574. 22nd September 1885.
Police Gazette 7 Oct 1885
MARY O'SHEA has been arrested by the Nhill police for stealing a child from Margaret Greenough, and the child has been recovered.- 0.5574. 3rd October 1885.
Seems Mary O'Shea was the girls birth mother.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18876027?
Cheers Kris :)
Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped. She was born Margaret Eileen O'Shea, Mother Mary O'shea, on the 29/7/1881. Margaret Sabina Greenough Gates Adopted her(unregistered of course). Margaret married Edward Nathan Phillips on 1st December 1887 in Moama NSW. Reg #1887/005965. They lived at 68 Osborne street Sth Yarra. Edward Nathan Phllips was a businessman at the Fish market, where the Flinders street station clocks now are in Melbourne. They were financially very well off owning many peices of real estate. I do have a photo of Margaret Sabina Phillips, Edward Phillips, the adopted daughter Margaret eileen, with her husband Horace Percy and my grandfather nathan Percy as a baby. I have copy of Margaret Sabina Greenough Gates Phillips Will and testament. She is buried at Fawkner cemetry, not with her last husband as he is in the Jewish section. She left money to her sister in Queensland, a Mrs Ann Hart. And income from her investments to an Ethel Crush. I hope this all helps with your story, as she is not my blood line. However my Great Nanna only knew her as her mother.
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Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped.
Gail
I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the photos you mentioned. To pass on personal information like email addresses etc we have to use the PM (personal message) facility and to use that you need to have three posts. If you reply to this that will be two. Just need one more after that.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Jon
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Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped.
Gail
I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the photos you mentioned. To pass on personal information like email addresses etc we have to use the PM (personal message) facility and to use that you need to have three posts. If you reply to this that will be two. Just need one more after that.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Jon
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Hi there ,I am the great grandaughter of the little girl who was kidnapped.
Gail
I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the photos you mentioned. To pass on personal information like email addresses etc we have to use the PM (personal message) facility and to use that you need to have three posts. If you reply to this that will be two. Just need one more after that.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Jon
Hi Jon I am happy to send you a copy of the photo I have of Margaret greenough gates Phillips and Edward Phillips.with their adopted daughter Margaret and her husband with their two children, one being my grandfather.
Sorry I have taken so long to reply.
Regards Gail