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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 22 March 11 09:00 GMT (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt and it's a 'corker'. I'm sure you'll have a fun time doing this.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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I am looking for the origins of my 4th Great Grandfather, James Butler, aka James Mostyn, born London approx 1791. Here is James' story as I know it...
James was tried and convicted (with William Marsden) at the Old Bailey on 16 January 1807 and sentenced to death. This was commuted to trasportation for Life as James was only about 15. He was kept on board various prison hulks then finally transported to Sydney on board the Admiral Gambier, arriving 20 Dec 1808.
He was pardoned in 1815, and married Mary Francis (daughter of convicts Thomas Francis & Honora Collins) in 1816. They had 14 children and he lived to the ripe old age of 89, dying in May 1880.
The problem I have is that somewhere along the line James started going by the name James Charles Mostyn (Moston) - this is what he and his wife were buried as, and all of the children also went by this name. He was married as James Morson, although on the 1828 census he was listed again as Butler.
His death certificate has his parents as William Mostyn, Hatter and Phoebe Frame.
All of his trial, prison, transport records etc are under the name James Butler. His middle name was Charles.
I have found an entry in The Times from his trial which said he was a footboy to a Gentleman of Lincoln's Inn and that he had run away.
Apart from this and his trial, prison & transportation records I can find no trace of his existence before this time. Was he Butler, was he Mostyn? Was he actually born in London? Or did he just make the whole thing up?!?!
Hoping the scavenger hunt can help.
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good morning :)
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may not be relevant but a Pheobe Mostyn married a Thomas Avery in Southwark in 1799
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who gave the information of James parents to the registrar upon his death?
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Morning Toni........ it's an interesting one isn't it ;D ;D
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Hi there,
Are you looking for any of his NSW info or for his life before the Old Bailey ...
Re his change of surname ... I do know that the women in NSW were regularly noted in the various musters under the surname that they arrived with... (with variations allowed for spelling)... so for example a female convict who arrived in 1808 landed as WRIGHT .. this being her married surname, and she brought her youngest child with her. Mrs W then had a long term relationship, and had his child. Years and years later that couple married, with the special licence as per Gov Macquarie's rules. Yet ever muster both before and after, and the 1828 census (marriage was 1821) has her surname as WRIGHT. The daughter's birth is found at the NSW State Library's list of illegit births under her father's surname, but the NSW BDM online has it under her mum's surname. I realise this info is about a female convict, but it is from the same era as your chap with two different surnames (BUTLER/MOSTYN/variations).
Do you have a copy of the info from the NSW Col Sec's 1788-1825 papers, the index says it is his memorial (Petition to the Governor) 17 May 1820 ... it could make mention of his various surnames. http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/default.htm (This link gives you some idea of the numbers of men with the name James BUTLER in NSW in that era. )
Please try this link instead http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/colonial-secretary/index-to-the-colonial-secretarys-papers-1788-1825
Does his CP of 5 June 1815 help ... although I notice this too was issued to James BUTLER
How sure are you that the 1816 marriage was for your James BUTLER ... could there be two different chaps...
Meanwhile, lets see if we can find either James BUTLER or James MOSTYN/MORSTON/MOSTON in Britain...
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Could be relevant
Phoebe Mustin 2yrs was buried in the Great Church Yard of St Bartholomew the Great Nov 14th 1798
Jan ;)
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I am looking for William Mostyn hatter& wife Phoebe but not finding him or her.
We don’t know how old they were which isn’t helping but there does not seem to be many Phoebe Mostyns around.
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According to NSW 1828 Census, James was then 38, ie born 1790, I've not yet checked if the Old Bailey trial mentions his age to be able to back that up .... but I will try to check the other NSW musters...
Cheers, JM
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very long shot but if James was born circa 1790 London and then there is a marriage of a Phoebe Mostyn to Thomas Avery in 1799 in Southwark
could this be Phoebe James mother?
i was also looking into that but i just cannot find anything yet but it is early!
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the trial was under the name of James Butler
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18070114-30-defend439&div=t18070114-30#highlight
hopefully the link works :-\
on 14th Jan 1807 he was 15 years old
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I've searched for marriage of William Mostyn(and variants) or Butler to a Phoebe but so far nothing, also looked for baptisms for children of William and Phoebe Mostyn/Butler and nothing so far :(
Jan ;)
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And confirmation
From NSW State records
"James Mostyn (otherwise known as Butler) - Date of death 27 or 28 May 1880, Granted on 22 July 1880" this is indicating PROBATE was granted on 22 July 1880...
A Question for familyhistorybuff .... have you accessed his probate packet at the Kingswood Archives office of NSW State Records, and does it give any further info to help?
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/
Cheers, JM
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This may be way off track, but
NSW Electoral Roll 1870, The Hawkesbury (ie Richmond District where his 1880 death was registered)
James BUTLER, freeholder, Macdonald River
and
James BUTLER, residence, Pitt Town
and 1878 NSW ER again The Hawkesbury
James Butler, residence, Macdonald River
and
James Butler, freehold, Kurrajong.
but NONE under MOSTYN or variations on either roll ... ???
Grevilles 1875 directory for the township of St Albans (again right area) : J Butler, Upper McDonald River, and again none under Mostyn or variations ...
Cheers, JM
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;D
Found another variation of the surname for you UK RChatters to consider:
Sarah MOSSON christening/baptism to James Mosson and Mary on 8 May 1817 (birth date of 10 Apr 1817) at Castlereagh and Richmond
(This is Richmond NSW, a fertile agricultural area on the north western outreaches of Greater Western Sydney, becoming an urbanised area in recent times)...
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start
Cheers, JM
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At the moment I am searching under Mostyn however the London records I have access to baptisms go from 1813 not 1791 I would imagine that Phoebe would have been in her (early) 40’s in 1813 so not likely to be having children
I have looked on the marriages for father William Mostyn there are not many in the timeframe we are looking for and the one that is gives William Mostyn occupation as a traveller not a hatter!
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Ummm.... traveller v hatter...
I have forebears at Gosport who were hatters, drapers etc around Admiral Nelson's time, and they employed travellers to journey to Devonport and to Ramsgate to outfit the various naval officers... Could be that chap you have found was a similar traveller, .... right era ...
Cheers, catch up tomorrow, hope familyhistorybuff has been online by then.... its 10:40 pm here in NSW
JM
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from Family Search
William MOSTYN
Male
birth: 1764
Marriages
Phoebe FRAINE FRAME
female
birth: 1768
child 1: James Charles MOSTYN
Male
birth: 1790
London, England
death: 1880 May 27
Kurrajong, Nsw, Australia
burial: 1880 May 24
St Stephens, Kurrajong, Nsw, Aust
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Name: Phebey Frame
Female
Christening 05 Feb 1769 SAINT OLAVE,SOUTHWARK,SURREY,ENGLAND
Father Abraham Frame
Mother Phebey
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I can’t see any trade directories that cover London / Middlesex in the 1790’s online to look for William Mostyn hatter
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i looked on IGI for St Olave christenings but they are not covered and there are no marriages for Abraham Frame (spelt as such) on there either
only a submitted entry
batch no. C022727
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Wow. I have just woken up to a flurry of activity. I'd better have my coffee & get to answering your questions. Be back soon.
Lisa :)
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who gave the information of James parents to the registrar upon his death?
It is difficult to make out - it looks like William Doyle. I do not know who that is.
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Are you looking for any of his NSW info or for his life before the Old Bailey ...
Do you have a copy of the info from the NSW Col Sec's 1788-1825 papers, the index says it is his memorial (Petition to the Governor) 17 May 1820 ... it could make mention of his various surnames. http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/default.htm (This link gives you some idea of the numbers of men with the name James BUTLER in NSW in that era. )
Does his CP of 5 June 1815 help ... although I notice this too was issued to James BUTLER
How sure are you that the 1816 marriage was for your James BUTLER ... could there be two different chaps...
a) I already know an enormous amount of detail about his life in NSW, now trying to break through the brick wall of his former life.
b) His petition gives no information that is useful in this search. It is a land petition and talks mainly about his good behaviou and servitude on the mountain road.
c) His pardon gives no further info that can help in this search.
d) Positive about the marriage to Mary Francis.
:)
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A Question for familyhistorybuff .... have you accessed his probate packet at the Kingswood Archives office of NSW State Records, and does it give any further info to help?
Cheers, JM
Hi JM,
Yep. I have his will - it's very brief, nothing helpful re his past.
:)
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Here are James & Mary's 14 children:
Sarah (1817 - 1905)
Catherine (1819 - 1893)
Mary (1820 - ?)
James Thomas (1821 - 1907)
Harriet Rosina (1823 - 1913)
John (1825 - 1906)
William (1827 - 1869)
Mary (1830 - 1919)
Thomas (1833 - 1903)
Jane Ann (1835 - 1910)
Isaac (1837 - 1935)
Maria Ann (1840 - 1888)
Fairlie Francis (1844 - 1934)
Walter ( - 1893) (? on this one - not 100% convinced)
What I have always noticed is there is no Phoebe, but then again there is also no Honora (his wife Mary's mother).
Lisa :)
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who gave the information of James parents to the registrar upon his death?
It is difficult to make out - it looks like William Doyle. I do not know who that is.
maybe you should find out, he obviously knew a lot if he knew James parents names
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late in finding you :-\ will try to catch up and help!
deb :)
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who gave the information of James parents to the registrar upon his death?
It is difficult to make out - it looks like William Doyle. I do not know who that is.
maybe you should find out, he obviously knew a lot if he knew James parents names
Agree with Toni ... the informant obviously knew a lot of info ...
Is it possible for you to check with the Hawkesbury Library or the Family History Group for that area as to who William DOYLE may have been ... perhaps a husband of one of James'children is my first thought. http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/community/hfhg/
Do you know who supplied the info for the probate packet where both MOSTYN and BUTLER are obviously surnames noted on that one file ... Perhaps the legal firm was local to Richmond, and may still exist and (fingers crossed) may have archived their file and still have access !
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Re William DOYLE, informant on James d.c. in 1880
I cannot find any "William" Doyle on 1878 electoral roll for The Hawkesbury but noticed the following DOYLE entries on that roll (all were freeholders at Portland Head South in the Windsor Police District):
James Andrew; James George; John Frederick...
I tried looking for ROYLE but found none...
Cheers, JM
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Wonder if this links in...
1841
London St Bermondsey
Jno Mostyn 74 Hatter born in county
HO107/1048/5/5 Pg1
Fits nicely for area for the possible remarriage of Phoebe Mostyn that toni found - added the Phebe who marries Thomas Avery is a spinster, perhaps she is an older sibling to James?
Jan ;)
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St Olaves Church Records at are TNA i think this is your best bet to find James christening and William & Pheobes marriage
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,51348.msg3774202.html#msg3774202
http://www.st-olaves.com/history.htm
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There is a 1783 marriage of James Mostyn widower in Southwark
Jan ;)
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More possible links
Southwark St Saviour baptisms
14 Feb 1796
Wm sn Thos Mostyn Hatter and Eliz born 15th Nov 1795
22 April 1791
Mary d John Mostyn Hatter and Hannah
1 Oct 1797
Mary Carolina d Thos Mostyn Hatter and Margaret
Bermondsey St Mary Magadalene Baptisms
Dec 13 1799 Perthiny Margaret d James and Elizabeth Mostyn Hatter Snowfields
Jan 24 1805 Martha d John and Hannah Mostyn Hatter Dockhead
Jan ;)
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IGI has a submitted entry of A birth for Abraham Frame of circa 1745 In London – not particularly helpful this Abraham married a Phebey [sic] in 767 London again submitted and does not give any more information as to which church
However seeing as there is the bp. of Pheobe d/o Abraham & Phebey in St Olaves I would suggest you try there!
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try here
http://www.eastsurreyfhs.org.uk/contacts.htm
:)
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have you investigated William Marsden?
now obviously he knew James Butler / Moyston as they robbed the shop together or at least ran away together
mind you i would run if i was 15 and being chased by the police, anyhow they must have known each other i don't think you go out to commit a crime with a complete stranger.
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can anyone find anything furtehr on Pheobe Avery
Jan good that you found those other Moystons in Southwark and they were hatters, maybe street directories might tell us abit more ? was there a milners nearby ?
i dont get the butler / moyston name change why call yourself Butler if your name was Moyston ? there must be a reason for that
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i dont get the butler / moyston name change why call yourself Butler if your name was Moyston ? there must be a reason for that
Good question. It has always puzzled me too.
I would understand it if his mother's name was Butler but according to his death cert it wasn't (although I know that info is only as good as the person who gave it).
I wondered if he gave a false name because he had run away, but surely being put in gaol / transported was far worse than getting in trouble from his parents?! :o
I was wondering if there may be any way to trace his employment as a footboy for the Gentleman of Linson's Inn?
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Is it likely he gave BUTLER as his surname to the arresting officer back in London, so perhaps that's where the confusion started ... or perhaps he gave MOSTYN and the officer also asked his occupation and he gave that as BUTLER .... .
His children are listed on NSW BDM Early Church Records with either BUTLER or MOSTYN (and variations) and his transportation records seem to be BUTLER rather than MOSTYN/var...
eg There's Sarah MOSSON's baptism in 1817 online NSW BDM ECR's , and Mary MOSTON's baptism indexed on NSW BDM in 1820 yet there's John BUTLER's in 1825...
So he was obviously happy to recognise MOSTYN or variations from fairly early on in his marriage, which seems to have been transcribed as MORSON = FRANCIS or FRANCES.
Interestingly there's a likely HEBREW connection ... I notice that in 1816 James MORSON's marriage to Mary FRANCIS was registered at "EA" once and at CD twice (not unusual for NSW records to have multiple entries for some and NO entries for other marriages in those early days)...
Question for familyhistorybuff ... Have you followed up the 'EA' entry, ref V1816132 135/1816 or are you relying on the "CD" entries ref V1816132 155/1816 & V18161951 3A/1816
Cheers, JM ... Not sure if the EA entry will have anything different though ::)
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Interestingly there's a likely HEBREW connection ... I notice that in 1816 James MORSON's marriage to Mary FRANCIS was registered at "EA" once and at CD twice (not unusual for NSW records to have multiple entries for some and NO entries for other marriages in those early days)...
Question for familyhistorybuff ... Have you followed up the 'EA' entry, ref V1816132 135/1816 or are you relying on the "CD" entries ref V1816132 155/1816 & V18161951 3A/1816
Cheers, JM ... Not sure if the EA entry will have anything different though ::)
Ooh. I wasn't aware that there was a difference - I've always gone from the church register - which doesn't give much info. Looks like I'll be ordering that transcript. :D
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Hi familyhistorybuff,
There may well be very little extra info on the ECR from the Hebrew registry, BUT if you are able to get to the NSW State Library in Sydney, perhaps it would be worth looking through their reels for the original images of those EA and CD entries... I have used that method myself to get to a couple of NSW marriages from 1817 and 1818, very interesting to compare the info on the NSW BDM records to the film... For example in my instances, 1817 ECR from NSWBDM does not include the ages of the bride and groom, nor if they signed or if they made their mark etc. The film (in my instance) gave me that the marriages were by Banns, and I was able to clearly see that the groom had a firm style of handwriting, lots of flourishes etc while his bride signed with her mark. Further, the good Rev'd had recorded their ages in the white space to the left of their signatures, also mentioned Batchelor (the usual spelling from that Rev) and Spinster etc. None of that on the ECR from NSW BDM ....
As I no longer live in Sydney I rarely get to the NSW State Library anymore, but with the V numbers and the date and the EA and CD clues you will easily be able to find the particular film in their holdings.
I don't think the Hebrew records have been included in the LDS transcriptions online, but I do have some info on their meeting place in Sydney in that era.
Fingers crossed, Cheers, JM
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Re convict name changes - one of my guys got caught and spent time in prison hulk under his original surname of Martin. On release he was soon enough caught again and gave a false name - Milbourn. He was tried, convicted and sent to Tasmania under this name but admitted to his real name. He kept using the assumed name for the rest of his life though.
So I think very possible Butler was the assumed name and Mostyn his original. Not much help to your search, I know, but thought I'd mention it ::)
Mo
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Looks like a visit to the State Archives is on the agenda very soon to consult those reels. :)
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Has Kingswood got copies of ALL the reels that are held at the NSW State Library?
I'm referring to the State Library's reels for the original parish records .... and of course, particularly for the Hebrew Synague's ie original records that the EA set is based on ...
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According to their website they do. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ceq/
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According to their website they do. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ceq/
I am reading that slightly differently ... but I could be mistooken. I am suggesting the State Library has the original records that were used as the basis of MUTCH's records that then form the basis of the Early Church Records ... So I am suggesting getting back to the primary records rather than the secondary ones ....
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See my reply re NSW BDM records at reply 54 on this Aussie thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,522487.45.html
As far as I am aware, the Kingswood archives are not directly drawn from the original parish records that Gov Macquarie directed to be kept way back in 1810 ...
But I could well be mistooken ...
Cheers, JM
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Aaahh. OK. I see what you mean now after re-reading. I think it's best to make the trip to the State Library.
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Re BUTLER as the surname .... I do not have any understanding of the Hebrew/Jewish way of passing down surnames, but perhaps it was matriarchal rather than patriarchal and thus MOSTYN may be his mother's line ... so perhaps his father was surnamed BUTLER and the informant on the d.c. simply mixed up the info about which surname belonged to each... (afterall twas given at a time of grief and we haven't really figured out the identity of the informant could well be a neighbour or a family friend etc) ...
Also,
Another couple of advantages to attending State Library v Kingswood
1. you must take packed lunch to Kingswood, no onsite cafeteria there and last time I visited ::) a kindly ( :P ) fellow attendee helped themselves to my cousins fresh milk and to my lunch box which we had placed (at the invitation of their signage) in the very tiny fridge in the cubby hole of a morning tea room.
2. you cannot take a photo or obtain a photocopy of any of the NSWBDM RECORDS that are in their holdings at Kingswood that they list on the link you have given as it is against NSWBDM regulations (they are the only ones who can provide this function, either directly or via licenced transcribers) BUT you can take a print of the film at the State Library as it is NOT part of the NSW BDM holdings, it predates that (And I note that the State Library is very protective of that right to provide that family history information) !
3. State Library is walking distance to public transport ... Kingswood has a bus from St Marys railway station, but not very frequent, and last bus from Kingswood is BEFORE the archives office closes
4. State Library has good reader facilities and the films are easy to find as there is chronological order to them. You have the date of the marriage, so you need to find the reel that has the Hebrew images for around that date.
Cheers, JM
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http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/GALL/GALL-1848.htm
This is now an e-book, but twas orginally a "proper book" published over 160 years ago... and err... one of my favourite books (well I did say I was NSW centric)
A snip from just one page of this very reliable text .... a paragraph about Hebrew religion in NSW circa 1817-1820 (its from Chapter XIV, page 65)
...."The records of the early period of the Hebrew religion in this Colony, are not very authentic, but from enquiries made, it appears that in 1817, there were about twenty Hebrews in the Colony, and those little versed in the faith of their ancestors: notwithstanding this they formed themselves into a Society, and raised a subscription for the interment of their dead. At this period the first Hebrew funeral took place. From 1817 to 1820 the Society continue in operation, meeting occasionally to regulate financial affairs. In 1820, a person named Joel Joseph died, and on the application of Mr. A. Levi to the Rev. Dr. Cowper, the right-hand corner of the Christian Burial Ground was allotted to the Hebrews for the interment of their dead."..."
Special thanks Project Gutenberg Australia
Original page with index, etc- http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600151h.html
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contact the LMA to ask them about St Olaves records i think this is best you can contact them via email or Dawnsh does look ups there if you know when for etc.
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Hi there,
There's been mention earlier of Thos BUTLER's marriage to Jane MOSTYN in 1800 at St Marylebone
So I note that Banns were called three times, both were otp
22 Dec, (1799)
29 Dec, (1799)
and 5 Jan 1800
I have ONLY unconfirmed info but it seems Hebrew surnames were passed down through the mother's line. So it may be that MOSTYN was his mother's nee name and simply that the informant on James'd.c. may have been confused
I recall that marriages were not recognised unless celebrated in the Established Church ... BUT perhaps there's a register or at least an index of Hebrew ceremonies in the late 1700's or early 1800's that could lead to finding the parents of James for famhistbuff...
Cheers, JM
Hope that makes sense and is not confusing...
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I recall that marriages were not recognised unless celebrated in the Established Church ...
unless Jewish or Quaker
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I recall that marriages were not recognised unless celebrated in the Established Church ...
unless Jewish or Quaker
Agh ....
so do you know of an index specifically for Jewish marriages ....
and
have you heard of the custom for the surname to be taken from the mother's line rather than the father's...
and ....
would the Establishment ignore that custom and have asked James (when being arrested or perhaps from the Judge at the trial ) WHAT IS YOUR FATHER'S NAME ... (I am hinting that the judgement may have been clouded by his possible Hebrew heritage, ... the evidence presented at the trial seems to be on very flimsy territory to have convicted him)
and
hence the trial being in the name of Butler, and thus his transportation papers being in that name ... thus whenever in NSW he needed to apply for permission to do anything legal he needed to use the name BUTLER but ... etc
The Hewbrew marriage in NSW is perhaps the key ... but those early records on marriages are usually very scant in family history info ..
Cheers, JM
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I do not know if an index specifically for the Jewish ceremonies I suspect it would still be held in the synagogue
I have not heard for the child to take the mothers name although this doesn’t mean it didn’t happen
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It's time for this weeks Scavenger Hunt and I do believe it's going to be a rather tricky one........ please read through fully first.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,523565.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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Thanks everyone for your help so far. You have given me quite a few things to follow up on. Apologies that I haven't been on - had a bit of a family emergency. I am also jetting off to the UK tomorrow night (Sydney time) for 3 weeks, so some of it will have to wait until I get back.
Lisa :)
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Hi there,
remember that Daylight Savings will finish here in NSW while you are away.
These Scavenger hunts stay open so you can get back onto the NSW track later.
Cheers, JM
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Well it's been over a year, but perseverance has paid off. I have found the birth record of James Mostyn!!!!! Thank you so much for everyone's input, it helped immensely. I am sitting here speechless - I have been looking for him for so many years.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well done............. congratulations :D :D
Barbara
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Glad you've found him at last :D
What are the details, does it solve the Butler conundrum?
Jan ;)
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It doesn't solve the Butler name - I can only (at this stage) assume he gave a false name.
As to how I found it, it was under our noses the whole time...
I was searching through London birth, marriage & death records on ancestry and also having a look at London Lives again. The name James Mostyn kept popping up, but no William. So I started researching James and found that he was a "Hatter". As I researched further, I found that there were baptism records for children of James Mostyn and Phebe. The dates were around the time our James Mostyn / Butler was born.
On each of the baptism records, James is listed as a Hatter.
Now we have all seen incorrect information on death certificates and know that the information on them is only as good as the person who gave it. So I started wondering if James Mostyn / Butler's father was not William, but in fact James?? I looked and looked, but, sadly, could not find a baptism record for James with parents James / Phebe.
Then I found a baptism record for a Frances - parents James Mastyn & Phebe. I looked at the original and could not believe my eyes when I saw the original said "JAMES"!!!!! His birthdate was estimated at around 1790ish - the baptism is for 1789.
We have't been able to find him for all of these years because we were all looking for a red herring - William Mostyn.
Interestingly, James Mostyn Snr (Hatter) was tried and convicted at the Old Bailey in 1796 for counterfieting coins. He was sentenced to one year in Newgate!
Now on to finding the marriage record for James & Phebe... ;D
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There is a marriage licence allegation for James Mostyn bachelor of St Saviour Southwark hatmaker dated 2 Jan 1788 but proposed spouse is Elizabeth Webb >:( The marriage took place. Elizabeth was of Bermondsey.
I cannot see anything else in right time frame and area
Jan ;)
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Well it's been over a year, but perseverance has paid off. I have found the birth record of James Mostyn!!!!! Thank you so much for everyone's input, it helped immensely. I am sitting here speechless - I have been looking for him for so many years.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi I have just found this site, and this gentleman was my GG GRAndfather,, my grandfather was hector st'clair mostyn, my dad was Lester hector Arthur James mostyn,, it has been so interesting reading all these posts,, thanks. Kim mostyn
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Hi Kim, Uncle Hector was my grandmothers brother I have a lot of information on the family, trying to go back further I have found Old Bailey information on James Mostyn have never been able to find anything on William Mostyn who is supposed to have been married to Phoebe Frame and James Mostyn's parents, the ref for James Mostyn on Old Bailey is t17960217-16 he was a hatter and charged with making his own coins - James Mostyn alias Butler Old Bailey re is t18070114-30
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Kim sorry me again, I should have kept reading then may have found your other information, you have gone further than me, anyway, on some of the stuff I have it has been suggested that James Mostyn alias Butler took the Butler name because he was living with his sister Jane and she had married a Butler, I dont have any subscriptions with any of the ancestry sites, but you may be able to find it, and if you do I would love to know if we are Mostyns or Butlers, by the way I am Sherrill McLauchlan (nee Keen) my mum was my grandmothers only child