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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: MabelLucy on Friday 25 March 11 03:00 GMT (UK)
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I have a marriage certificate for my great grandmother Agnes Ada Brown who was married to William John Richardson July 20 1884. I also have a marriage cert for her father, Thomas Cockson Brown who was married to Sophia Thomas December 25 1856, both couples married at St Philip's Church, Bethnal Green, Middlesex. Thomas and Sophias certificate is signed by James Brown (groom's father) and Elizabeth Brown. Sophia's father is called James (Thomas) also. One of William and Ada's witnesses was Ida Henrietta Brown who I know was Agnes's sister.
I am having great difficulty tracking down this couple and have been looking for James Browns possibly married to Elizabeths. I have found one census entry for a James and Elizabeth Brown (his birth place looks like Herefordshire or Hertfordshire and hers is Newport, Isle of Wight.
The trouble is, they are such common names and there are no end of James Browns married to Elizabeths in the Bethnal Green area/London area. It is all very confusing and I hope you can help
Many thanks
Jenny
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Jenny,
How do you know that the James Brown who signed Thomas and Sophia's certificate, is Thomas's father?
How do you know that Elizabeth Brown who signed the same certificate, is James's wife (and Thomas's mother)?
Occupations can sometimes help identify the correct person if there are several possibilities ...
Do you know the names and dobs of any of Thomas's siblings? If so, maybe you could find the family group together on the censuses ...
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Hi Ruskie
I know that James Brown is Thomas Cockson Brown's father because it says he is on the certificate and it also says he was a watchman. I don't know that the Elizabeth Brown who was the witness was his mother - that is my problem as there are so many James Browns and Elizabeth Browns. I have spent a great deal of time searching for census groups but as yet have not been able to find one that I think is the right one. I guess I will just have to keep looking.
Thanks for your help.
Jenny
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Hi
Consider - The Brown family you quote (Hereford & IOW) has the son of the "correct" age matching the marriage certificate.
Ray
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Yes I have already considered that and they have got a son called Thomas of the correct age.
Jenny
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Hi Ruskie
I know that James Brown is Thomas Cockson Brown's father because it says he is on the certificate and it also says he was a watchman.
Jenny, I understand that James is named as Thomas's father and his occupation is 'watchman'.
But as far as I am aware the witnesses relationship to the bride and groom are not given on marriage certificates:
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/marriages.htm#COL10
... just wondering if the witnesses James and Elizabeth Brown may have been siblings, cousins or some other relation of the groom ... :-\
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How old was Thomas Cockson Brown when he married Sophia?
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Hi
1861 census RG9 252 folio 67
10 William Street Bethnal Green Middlesex
Thomas C Brown 28 Head Married Labourer Bucks
Sophia Brown 34 Wife Married Swansea Glamorganshire
Jessie Brown 6 Daughter Cripplegate Middlesex
Laura E Brown 4 Daughter Bethnal Green Middlesex
Julia H Brown 2 Daughter St Georges Wapping Middlesex
Difficult to find the family on the 1871 census.
1881 census RG11 480 folio 56
3 North Square Miles End Old Town
Thomas Brown 47 Head Married Labourer Dock Bethnal Green Middlesex
Sophia Brown 48 Wife Married Miles End Middlesex
Laura Brown 23 Daughter Unmarried Laundress Mile End Middlesex
Ida Brown 20 Daughter Artifical Florist Mile End Middlesex
James Brown 19 Son Labourer Dock Mile End Middlesex
Agnes Brown 15 Daughter General Servant (unemployed) Mile End Middlesex
The 1851 census confirms Sophia's birthplace as Swansea casting doubt on the 1881 census birthplace information for Thomas.
1851 census HO107 1549? folio ?
21 Park Cemetery Bethnal Green Middlesex
Charles Hunt 37 Head Married Superintendant Isle of Wight
Sarah Hunt 31 Wife Married Swansea Wales
Edward T Hunt 16 Son Middlesex
W James Hunt 10 Son Middlesex
Lawin? C Hunt 2 Son Middlesex
Sophia Thomas 29 Sister Swansea Wales
Henerita Thomas 12 Sister Swansea Wales
Regards
Valda
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Thank you Valda - you have helped me before with some evidence from the records for another part of my family. I really appreciate your input - very helpful. I had found Sophia with the Glamorgan Wales entry and it is attached to my family tree, but had then found the other census entry (1881) saying she came from Middlesex, so I was tending to discount Glamorgan as her birth place, but I hadn't found the third census entry (1851) you provided with her sister added as well.
As there is a James Brown listed as her brother in the 1881 census, the witness could have been Thomas's brother rather than his father, but he does not seem to have a sister called Elizabeth I note.
Thank you once again - this gives me some more amunition to carry on my search with.
Jenny
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Hello Valda
I just wanted to write and thank you very much for your help in tracing my ggg grandparents on both sides. A while ago you sent me a census entry for a Charles and Sarah Hunt and their family (above) - he was a Superintendant of the Victoria Park Cemetery in Bethnal Green in 1851 (I now have reason to believe that he may have helped in the design of that park). I have made big strides thanks to your information. James Thomas, Charles's father-in-law was a Chief boatman and then Coastguard and he was transferred to St Lawrence in the Isle of Wight - while he was there he and another man were in instrumental in rescuing 19 people off the foundering 430 ton ship Bainbridge, which was driven onto rocks near Atherfield. James (and presumably Stubbs) won silver medals RNLI for Lifeboat Gallantry.
Jame's eldest daughter Sarah married Charles Hunt (he was a gardener) and moved to London. Apparently James and his wife Sarah (nee Croscombe) moved to London first and that was the incentive for the family to move there. I have discovered that Charles had a sister called Elizabeth and therefore think that Elizabeth Hunt was probably the wife of James Brown and therefore my ggg grandmother. So the links to Wales and the Isle of Wight, as you can see has been a very important one.
They seemed to move about a great deal in those days, as James and Sarah's two eldest children were born in Swansea, Wales, but the other children were born in the IOW. I have the names of the Hunts further back, but am having difficulty linking William Hunt (1776) and Jane Devenish (1778), his wife to Thomas Hunt (born 1770, St Lawrence, IOW) and Hannah Dyer (nee Tutchell), his wife and beyond them, Thomas Hunt and Mary Coleman. Hannah Dyer was first married to Richard Dyer. I presume that William was Thomas's brother. William and Jane Devenish were married in St Lawrence, IOW in 1797.
I am also having problems finding a birth for James Thomas (may be in Wales, but not sure - 1800) and his wife Sarah Croscombe who supposedly married him in Devon where her family came from.
I have this information (below) from a private book about the Hunt family (just a couple of pages of which I found online):
Noted events in his life were:-
Charles was born at Steephill Farm, in the parish of Godshill and grew up in neighbouring St Lawrence where his father, William was born. It was here that he met his future wife, Sarah Thomas, daughter of St Lawrence coastguard and chief boatman, James Thomas and his wife Sarah nee Croscombe. Sarah was born in Swansea, Wales and christened in Northam, Devon - close to Bideford, the birthplace of her grandfather, merchant navy captain, George Croscombe. The Thomas family settled in St Lawrence circa 1826 when James was transferred from Clovelly, Devon, before moving along the coast to Atherfield Preventive Station. On 24 October, 1832, James received a silver medal for his part in risking his life to rescue passengers from the stricken brig, Bainbridge, that foundered on rocks off Atherfield.
I have not even touched on James Brown yet (Sophia Thomas's father-in-law), so more scavenging to come, but once again I really appreciate your help - a big thank you!
Kind regards
Jenny
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Hi
It is always interesting to read how research has progressed.
Thank you
Regards
Valda
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Hello Valda
I just wanted to write and thank you very much for your help in tracing my ggg grandparents on both sides. A while ago you sent me a census entry for a Charles and Sarah Hunt and their family (above) - he was a Superintendant of the Victoria Park Cemetery in Bethnal Green in 1851 (I now have reason to believe that he may have helped in the design of that park). I have made big strides thanks to your information. James Thomas, Charles's father-in-law was a Chief boatman and then Coastguard and he was transferred to St Lawrence in the Isle of Wight - while he was there he and another man were in instrumental in rescuing 19 people off the foundering 430 ton ship Bainbridge, which was driven onto rocks near Atherfield. James (and presumably Stubbs) won silver medals RNLI for Lifeboat Gallantry.
Jame's eldest daughter Sarah married Charles Hunt (he was a gardener) and moved to London. Apparently James and his wife Sarah (nee Croscombe) moved to London first and that was the incentive for the family to move there. I have discovered that Charles had a sister called Elizabeth and therefore think that Elizabeth Hunt was probably the wife of James Brown and therefore my ggg grandmother. So the links to Wales and the Isle of Wight, as you can see has been a very important one.
They seemed to move about a great deal in those days, as James and Sarah's two eldest children were born in Swansea, Wales, but the other children were born in the IOW. I have the names of the Hunts further back, but am having difficulty linking William Hunt (1776) and Jane Devenish (1778), his wife to Thomas Hunt (born 1770, St Lawrence, IOW) and Hannah Dyer (nee Tutchell), his wife and beyond them, Thomas Hunt and Mary Coleman. Hannah Dyer was first married to Richard Dyer. I presume that William was Thomas's brother. William and Jane Devenish were married in St Lawrence, IOW in 1797.
I am also having problems finding a birth for James Thomas (may be in Wales, but not sure - 1800) and his wife Sarah Croscombe who supposedly married him in Devon where her family came from.
I have this information (below) from a private book about the Hunt family (just a couple of pages of which I found online):
Noted events in his life were:-
Charles was born at Steephill Farm, in the parish of Godshill and grew up in neighbouring St Lawrence where his father, William was born. It was here that he met his future wife, Sarah Thomas, daughter of St Lawrence coastguard and chief boatman, James Thomas and his wife Sarah nee Croscombe. Sarah was born in Swansea, Wales and christened in Northam, Devon - close to Bideford, the birthplace of her grandfather, merchant navy captain, George Croscombe. The Thomas family settled in St Lawrence circa 1826 when James was transferred from Clovelly, Devon, before moving along the coast to Atherfield Preventive Station. On 24 October, 1832, James received a silver medal for his part in risking his life to rescue passengers from the stricken brig, Bainbridge, that foundered on rocks off Atherfield.
I have not even touched on James Brown yet (Sophia Thomas's father-in-law), so more scavenging to come, but once again I really appreciate your help - a big thank you!
Kind regards
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
Your post was over 10 years ago now but I am just wondering whether you have made any progress with Thomas HUNT and Hannah TUTCHELL. They had a son George. I am looking for other possible children.
Regards, Christine