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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: anitah1972 on Saturday 02 April 11 15:17 BST (UK)
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Mystery here... hoping someone can help me find a bit more documentation...
What I know:
My mother's mother's mother was Helen McGregor Seth, b. 1869 in Dumbarton. The (transcription of the) 1871 Scottish Census lists her in Dumbarton, parents as William Seth ("ship joiner at works") and Mary J Seth, b. 1844 (age 27) whose birthplace is listed only as "Subject, America British".
THAT was a surprise... but it made it easier to track the family and find Mary Jane as a child. The 1861 Census has a Mary Jane Jarvis (age 17, same "Subject, American British"), dressmaker and stepdaughter to head of household Charles Douglas; mother listed as Helen Douglas, whole pile of Douglas children. The family is living on High Street, Linlithgow.
Farther back - 1851 Census - lists her as age 7, same parents, brother William Jarvis, age 5, and for both, place of birth is listed as "British Subject, United States."
Other helpful online folk have confirmed: Mary Jane Jervis and William Seth married Dec 31, 1862, Helen McGregor Seth was born July 3rd, 1869. This family has had a VERY strong tendency for naming children after their grandparents. So I started looking for a Helen McGregor Jarvis who might have been Mary Jane's mother. There is also a David Jarvis Seth among Mary Jane's children... giving me a headstart on her father's name.
Some digging DID find me a New York Passenger List (arrival 31 May 1842) that includes David Jarvis (age 28, "wright") and Helen Jarvis (age 20) traveling with a Margaret McGregor (age 19) and Mary McGregor (age 9). (Her sisters?) They had departed Dundee (although it may not have originated there, and that's just the port, not necessarily a residence of any of the travelers.) In trying to research the ship, I found mention from the port recordkeeper in NY that the same ship had arrived a year earlier full of immigrants whose passage had been paid by the Glasgow Emigration Society, and who had arrived penniless, expecting to be given land, which was not at all the case. He notes that he arranged for some to work in the port, but some refused it.
An IGI lookup confirms: David Jervis and Helen McGrigor married Jun 4th, 1838, in Dundee, Angus, Scotland.
Back to the Census ... 1841 finds a David Jarvis (age 25) and Helen Jarvis (age shown as 26, but I think that may be a transcription error and what's written is '20', with the "0" being looped and mistaken for a "6"?) living on High St in Linlithgow, no children. He's listed as a Journeyman Joiner (Joiner J) and she as a dressmaker. So all of that fits.
However: I can find no record of either of them before their marriage. I can find no record of a family with children Helen, Margaret and Mary McGregor/McGrigor in Linlithgow or elsewhere. I can't pin down a David Jarvis in Dundee (why did they marry there?) I can't explain why they would have picked up and gone to NY, I can't find any record of them in NY, and I can't find any record of David Jarvis after his arrival. I can find no birth record for Mary Jane or William in the US. I can't find any record of Helen and her children Mary Jane and William returning to Scotland. I can't explain how Helen lived in the same place (High St. Linlithgow) with both husbands... but no other family. (Is High St. a long road? Maybe it's coincidence?)
I did, in trying to imagine the story, discover that there was a particularly bad cholera epidemic in NYC in 1849, but it's pure speculation to think that was a cause of death for David or the impetus for the family to return to Scotland. I can't even confirm that they stayed in NYC and didn't travel/live elsewhere while in the States.
I'm so intrigued... ANY suggestions on how to track down more info on this family - including help with any lookups you think might be helpful - would be appreciated!
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Hi Anita
An IGI lookup confirms: David Jervis and Helen McGrigor married Jun 4th, 1838, in Dundee, Angus, Scotland.
The OPR for the marriage on SP shows that David Jervis was a cabinetmaker and Helen McGrigor was the daughter of what looks like Will. McGrigor Linlithgow.
Tracey
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Hi
There's an extracted record on the IGI for the marriage of Helen McGregor or Jarvis, father William McGregor, to Charles Douglas 1/10/1848 in Linlithgow.
Tracey
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Hi
Possible parents of Helen? Extracted marriage on the IGI for a William McGrigor and Mary Cant in Linlithgow 14 Aug 1819.
Also on IGI - extracted births for children of William and Mary at Linlithgow
Jean McGregor 18 Mar 1833
Marion McGregor 27 Dec 1835
Wilhelmina McGregor 14 Jan 1838
Submitted birth for a Mary Hardy McGregor 25/12/1828 Linlithgow
Can't find a birth for Helen though. In the 1841 census she states she was born in West Lothian.
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Oo! Thank you! The confirmation is fantastic and the date of the marriage to Charles Douglas helps identify when they returned to Scotland... and it's earlier than I'd thought; she'd have made the crossing (back) when William was (no more than) 2 and Mary Jane was about 4. (Wow... that really suggests a motivation to get 'home.')
Siblings in '33-'38 ...hmmm....I'm thinking there are probably quite a few other births in there, too. Helen in about '22 fits with the marriage date, and my speculation is that there's a Margaret in '23 and a Mary in '33 fits in the gap... probably with a few others. (I'm amazed at the fertility... not that I imagine they had many options with that. :)
I really appreciate the help! Off to see what I can find on the McGregor/Cant families, too!
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Hi Anita
Found Ellen McGregor Douglas's death 21 Feb 1871 in Linlithgow on SP. Parents confirmed as William McGregor (shoemaker) and Mary Cant.
Interestingly, on the 1841 census, Helen's 2nd husband Charles Douglas is also shown as a shoemaker living in High Street, Linlithgow, aged 21.
Tracey
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That is interesting! It seems likely they knew each other before she left. It seems like a close-knit community/family; in the next generation, Mary Jane's husband William Seth appears to have married her half-sister Helen Douglas after Mary Jane's death.
Thank you again! :)
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Hi
Very close-knit indeed!
Have found Mary Cant's death on SP. She died 13 Jun 1866, the wife of a William Glen, shoemaker!
It looks as though her first husband William McGregor, also a shoemaker and the father of Helen, died before 1841. There is an extracted marriage on the IGI for Mary Cant or MacGregor to William Glen 5 Apr 1841 at Linlithgow.
On Mary's death certificate her parents are shown as John Cant, tanner, and Isabella Miller (both deceased).
Linlithgow was an important centre for leatherwork in the 18th and 19th centuries and there is a Grade C Listed Building at 212-214 High Street that is a surviving remnant of the tannery trade. In the 18th century there were 17 tanneries in the town along with 12 skinneries and 18 currying establishments.
According to the IGI, there is an extracted marriage for John Cant and Isabella Miller 5 Sep 1794 in Brechin, Angus - could this be the link to Dundee? They had 3 children on the IGI -
James 31 May 1795, John 1 Jan 1797 and Mary 5 Aug 1798, all born in Brechin.
Tracey
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Lol...me again!
The 1841 census has Mary Cant (now called Glen) living at High Street, Linlithgow -
William Glen 25 Shoemaker b. West Lothian
Mary Glen 35 b. outside census county
Isabella McGregor 10 b. West Lothian
Jean McGregor 8 b. West Lothian
Marion McGregor 6 b. West Lothian
Wilhelmina McGregor 3 b. West Lothian
John McGregor 1 b. West Lothian
Her daughter Helen Jarvis is on the same Folio page on the Census!
Tracey
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You know, I was JUST looking at the Census records and wondering about that Mary Glen, which came up as a potential hint - and here I was about to dismiss it as "it must be some other Mary Cant!"
There are other Ancestry trees (so unreliable, yet sometimes spot on) that have her born in Brechin, Angus (and also list her as Mary Kent - ?!). So yes, I'd say that with what you've found about her parents, it seems very likely that she's the connection to Dundee. It's not especially close - 55 miles by the best route today (via Google maps) ... it seems like that would have been much further back then, but I don't have a good handle on how much traveling people actually did.
You're spending hours helping me out here - it's very sweet of you and I really appreciate it!
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Ok...now for David Jarvi(e)s......
SP has only 4 OPR births for a J*RV* DAVID between 1810 and 1825
David Jarvie 30 Nov 1815 in Kilsyth, Stirling to John Jarvie and Isobel Patrick
David Jarvie 10 Jul 1823 in Campsie, Stirling to Alexander Jarvie and Agnes Buchanan
David Jarvis 10 Jun 1818 in Dunottar, Kincardine to Edward Jarvis and Mary Walker
David Jervis 2 Jan 1814 in St Cyrus, Kincardine to James Jervis and Elizabeth Watt
I guess you can discount the Campsie one but my guess is that the two in Kincardine are contenders.
Tracey
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Lol...its no problem....I like a challenge and its been a lazy day today so what better to do than some family digging :) I've had lots of help from people on here so it's nice to return the favour.
My hubby's due in from work soon so it may be the last for me tonight...maybe someone else can pick up?
As to people moving about don't let that stop you - as you've found, Helen went all the way to America and back again! The worst thing I've found is to dismiss possible links due to a few miles distance...it can lead you down the completely wrong path.
Have a great evening and good luck!
Tracey
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Ok... so I have this death cert for Isabella Miller in Dundee in 1824 - and the last few lines are a little confusing; I'm hoping someone can clue me in to the code.
I see she died of Rheumatic fever... but what does the "new"(?) in the next column mean? (There's no header for this at the top of the page.) and what does the code '1029-A' for "Place of Interment" mean? Would that indicate the cemetary, or a plot in a particular cemetary?
Any help is much appreciated! Thanks!
UPDATE: crossposted to the Deciphering/Recognition board, then to the Angus board (for Dundee!) and got the answer: this is for the New Howff cemetery.
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Thanks a BUNCH to tigger_lass for the help w/puzzling out the records! I've successfully built another several branches of the tree. :)
Looks like they were part of a close-knit leather-working/shoe-making industry, which makes Helen's heading to America with a cabinetmaker/wright all the more confusing... and I'm still clueless about what might have happened to them in the States. But that's probably outside the scope of this board, so I'm going to mark this one completed. Thanks again!
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Hi, Mary Hardy McGregor, b 25 Dec 1828, was my g-g-grandmother. I've enjoyed learning a bit more about her family. Thank you for posting. Thank you, Tracey, for researching and sharing.
If Mary McGregor accompanied Helen & David Jarvis to the US in 1842, she would have been 13. Perhaps another records mix up at the port? I've misplaced my research with her immigration info, but the timing makes sense, because her father had died, mother had remarried, and there were still lots of younger children at home. Lots!
Mary Hardy McGregor (and probably the Jarvis family) lived in Paterson, New Jersey. She married John Mitchell (born Dundee in 1815) in October 1847 in Brooklyn, New York, and their eldest child and my ancestor, Eliza Sedgewick Mitchell, was born in Paterson in September 1848. The family gradually moved West, first living in Wisconsin and then Nebraska, before settling in Oregon. Eliza married a Union Civil War veteran who emigrated with his family from Prussia. They met and married in Wisconsin.
Thank you, again. I learned more about my McGregors from reading this thread than I did from my several visits to the National Archives in Edinburgh many years ago. Computers have certainly streamlined family research. All the best.
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Hi there! Mary Hardy McGregor is (thanks to Ancestry for figuring this) my 4th great grand aunt. :)
For her, I now have the following facts:
1828 25 Dec
Birth
Linlithgow, West Lothian, Scotland
1842 Mar
Age: 13
Departure
Dundee, Scotland
(+/-, given standard length of sailing voyages at that time.)
1842 31 May
Age: 13
Arrival
New York, New York
1847 22 Oct
Age: 18
Marriage to John Mitchell
East Brooklyn, New York, United States
1870
Age: 42
Residence
Blue Mounds, Dane, Wisconsin, United States
1880
Age: 52
Residence
Riverton, Franklin, Nebraska, United States
1900
Age: 72
Residence
Willamett, Bellfountain, and Monroe Precincts, Benton, Oregon
1909 10 Jul
Age: 80
Death
Inavale, Benton, Oregon, United States
I have her children as:
Eliza Sedgewick Mitchell 1848 – 1941
Mary Jane Mitchell 1850 – 1896
Anna Adamson Mitchell 1853 –
Margaret Fender Mitchell 1856 – 1943
Emma Ellen Mitchell 1858 – 1946
John William Mitchell 1860 – 1950
Robert Elliott Mitchell 1863 – 1946
Martha Stephen Mitchell 1866 – 1954
Boy Mitchell 1868 – 1868
Martin Mitchell 1869 – 1869
August Andrew Mitchell 1870 – 1879
I don't have any record of them in Patterson - for me their lives between marriage and the 1870 Census seem to be blank... do you have any information about that time? If they stayed near/with the Jarvis', it might help me track them also?
Thanks a bunch - and yes, isn't the internet a wonderful thing?! :)))
Anita
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Hi, So glad you replied. I have a copy of a 26-page "as told to" manuscript of Margaret Mitchell Womer's memories. "That You May Know," transcribed in December 1935, is in the Nebraska Archives. Margaret, namesake of Mary Hardy McGregor Mitchell's sister Margaret Fender Mitchell, was a sister of my great grandmother Eliza Sedgewick Mitchell Pierstorff.
Unfortunately, the Jarvis family isn't mentioned in the transcript, but perhaps Margaret Womer's story has clues for further research. Margaret Womer said Mary Hardy McGregor lived in East Brooklyn, NY with her sister, Margaret Fender, and was married at Margaret's home by Rev Jonathan Greenleaf, a Presbyterian minister, in September 1847. The three oldest girls were born in "our New York home"--not further identified--and Margaret Womer was born in Jersey City, NJ. So, my Paterson, NJ info could be wrong. Familysearch dot org shows Paterson, Passaic Co, NJ as Eliza Sedgewick Mitchell's birthplace, but familysearch data isn't guaranteed to be accurate these days. One family story I've heard is that Eliza was originally to be named Elizabeth, but her Scottish father didn't want his daughter named after a British queen.
Mary H. McGregor and Margaret McGregor sailed on the Sterling of Dundee in 1842; they were at sea for 8 weeks. John Mitchell sailed on the packet ship New York of Newark, also in 1842, and settled in New York. he was overseer of looms and dresser of tools in a large [unnamed] factory, but later a postmaster, teacher, storekeeper. The manuscript doesn't say how the Mitchells met, but it sounds like they were active in a Scottish community--possibly through church and/or industrial contacts--in the NY and NJ area. John Mitchell was very well read for the times, according to his daughter, and Mary Hardy McGregor Mitchell was "strong in body and a tower of might in the guidance of her family." (I think that means stubborn.)
Just for the record, Margaret Womer and a sister saw Old Abe, an eagle that served as the Union mascot, and President Grant at a Wisconsin State Fair. (The bird was mentioned first in the manuscript.) When traveling to Nebraska, she and her father saw still-smoldering Chicago after the Great Fire.
Sorry that I can't provide more definitive info on the Jarvis family. Rev Greenleaf's Presbyterian church would be in a very urbanized area now, if it still exists. Perhaps burial or funeral records have been archived. Best of luck.
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Hi,
I am a gr. gr. grandson of John and Mary McGregor Mitchell (their son, John, was the father of my maternal grandmother Florence Mitchell Chaffin). I am doing some research prior to my upcoming trip to Scotland.
Thanks,
Jim Boggs
jkb@kdsi.net
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Hi, I am a Glen Descendant, my Glen's are from Linlithgow. I just returned from Scotland and visited Linlithgow while I was there. It is a small town, the main business street (high street) has many old businesses that have been there forever(1700 & 1800's) and maybe before. it is a wonderful place to visit. If you ever get to visit make sure you get to Linlithgow palace and the church next to it. There are many Glen's buried there.(my 3rd gr. grandfather and family are buried there! The train from Edinburgh take abt. 1/2 hour! Well worth a visit!