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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Mundell on Friday 08 April 11 17:13 BST (UK)
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Information Please.
My Great Grandparents, John Walton and Janet Brown were married on 13/04/1860 at Leven, Scoonie, Fife. Any assistance to trace their parents, particularly their mothers, would be appreciated.
John's mother was apparently Helen Kenley, but I have not been able to trace their marriage or her birth.
Janet's mother is given as Elizabeth Hawkey. I have seen several variations of this name in connection with Andrew Brown - Halket/Hakney/Hackney/Hawkey/Brown, and am confused.
Thanks, Mundell
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Hi Mundell,
Have you got an age for John Walton & Janet Brown
weemanswife
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Hello, Thanks for your message
Marriage cert. 1860 gives John Walton's age as 21 - no age for Janet Brown
1841 Census for Andrew and Elizabeth Brown give Janet's age as 6
1861 Census gives John's age as 22 and Janet's age as 26
Regards Mundell
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Hi Mundell
I've had a look at www.familysearch.org for possible matches and there is a birth for a Janet Brown that looks like a good match. The entry gives the following information:
Janet Brown
Birth Date: 06 June 1834
Baptism/Christening Date: 22 June 1834
Baptism/Christening Place: Cupar, Fife
Father's Name: Andrew Brown
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Halket
This would tie in with the names you have for Janet's parents and her age on the census.
Hope this helps. :)
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Hi again Mundell
There is also another child born to the same parents. The details are:
William Brown
Birth Date: 20 January 1836
Baptism/Christening Date: 7 February 1836
Baptism/Christening Place: Auchtermuchty, Fife
Do you know from the census you have if Janet had a brother named William?
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Hi Mund
There is a mrriage SP for a Andrew Brown & Elizabeth Hakney at Cupar Fife on the 12-1-1834.
weemanswife
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Hi Mundell
There is also a marriage entry for Andrew Brown and Elizabeth Hackney on 25 January 1834 at Rattray, Perth. I think this entry and the entry weemanswife mentioned are for the same couple. I think these entries are probably for the banns of the marriage and suggest that one of the couple lived in Cupar while the other lived in Rattray and so the banns had to be read in both of the parishes.
From the information you have from the census do you know the ages and birthplaces of Janet's parents? If you do this may help us make some more progress with this.
Also could you post any information you have regarding the names, ages and brithplaces of John Walton's parents.
Regards,
HubbellGardiner :)
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Hello Weemanswife and HubbellGardiner,
Thanks for the pointers. 1841 census does have William as 5 and Janet as 6. Family residing at Lambuletham Cameron. Both parents aged 25 but no birth details.
Using both children's names I managed to identify the family on 1851 census at Scoonie. Both parents ages given as 38. Andrew's birth place is given as Cupar and Elizabeth's as Dysart.
Interestingly Elizabeth has a second name noted which is not clear - could be Halket (which would tie in with one of your comments), or Halkern? How frustrating!
I will try to attach a copy to see if you can make any suggestions.
1861 census repeats these birthplace details with ages Andrew 48, Elizabeth 49 but no maiden name.
The other marriage you mentioned - Brown-Hackney - could they possible be the same people?
Have found a register entry on 17th March 1811 at Dysart, Fife, for an Elizabeth Hacket born 12th - parents -James Hacket and Janet Murray.
John Walton seems to be a common combination which throws up a lot of info. which I will now spend some time on.
Thanks for your help.
Regards Mundell
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Hi again Mundell
I've had a look at the census entry you attached and I agree with you that the second name could be either Halket or Halkern or something similar. :-\
I think the birth entry for 1811 you found for Elizabeth Hacket could be a possibility. The year of birth and place of birth would tie in with the information you have about Elizabeth from the census entries. Also the fact that the mother's name is Janet and then Andrew and Elizabeth named their first daughter Janet would follow the traditional naming pattern in Scotland of naming the first daughter after the mother's mother.
Have you managed to find death certificates for Andrew and Elizabeth? These would give the names of their parents and would make it easier for you to then trace their births. Do you have them in any census after 1861? If you can try to follow them using the census it would help you to narrow down a possible year of death for each of them.
Hope this helps. :)
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Hi Mundell
Just had a quick look on Scotlands People for possible matches for deaths for either Andrew or Elizabeth.
I've found it is usually easier to find a wife's death certificate first. Because a married woman's maiden name is usually listed you can often find the correct match more easily than looking for the husband's death certificate. Also if you find the wife's death certificate this will say if she is a widow at the time of her death and so narrow down the timescale for finding the husband's death certificate. This is especially helpful if you are looking for a more common name with lots of potential matches eg Brown ;D
On Scotlands People there is a death in Abbotshall, Fife in 1889 for Elizabeth Brown. Interestingly the other surname is listed as Hackett. Could this be a possible match? :-\
Hope this information helps. :)
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Hello HubbellGardiner and weemanswife, I have tried and failed to send this message twice so you may get multiple posts!
Thanks for going the extra mile. Thanks to your advice, I have managed to work my way through the barrier. I found death certs. for both Andrew and Elizabeth [Halket(t)] Brown. Halket(t) is confirmed now on several documents. Their parents' names are clear and I shall do more work on these in due course.
Using the same method, I traced death certs. for John and Janet (Brown) Walton. Janet's confirmed Halket. John's parents are given as John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo, and other searches I have done confirm this combination. So again I now have more to work on.
Would either of you have any suggestions as to why the parents' names on Janet and Johns marriage cert. are so wrong? Hawkey, perhaps can more easily be understood. But John obviously thought his mother was Helen Kenley. They gave this as a middle name to their daughter Alice who was my Grandmother. I am trying to attach a copy of their marriage cert. for your info.
Anyway, thanks again for your helpful guidance. Regards, Mundell
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Hi again Mundell
Glad to hear you've managed to make such good progress. ;D
I've looked at the marriage certificate you attached and I agree it is quite confusing with regards to the parents' names. I think you may be right and Hawkey and Hackett are close enough that it may just be down to someone mishearing the word. However John's mother's name is another matter.
In my own family tree I have found a couple of occasions where the mother's name on the death certificate and the marriage certificate were two totally different names but I found that the marriage certificate usually was the correct name. I presumed that this was because the name on the marriage certificate had been given by the son or daughter whereas on the death certificate it may have been given by a relative who was less familiar with the name of a family member who had possibly died decades previously. However, in your case it appears that the death certificate has the correct name and that John gave the incorrect name for his mother when he married ???
It certainly is a bit of a mystery. I'll have another look at the marriage certificate and then get back to you with any thoughts I have.
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Hi Mundell
Looking at the marriage certificate I noticed that Janet's mother is given as Elizabeth Brown maiden name Hawkey. However, John's mother is given as Helen Kenley and no mention of a maiden name. I would have thought that it should have read Helen Walton maiden name Kenley :-\ If you look at the other marriage certificate for the couple listed above John and Janet you can see that the mothers are both listed by married name followed by maiden name so Helen Kenley doesn't seem to follow the same pattern. It may just be an oversight by the person who filled out the certificate but it might be something to bear in mind in case it does have some significance.
Also I have a couple of questions which may clarify things.
Firstly, have you managed to trace John on the census when he was a child? If so is his mother listed as Elizabeth or Helen? Is it possible that John's father was married to Elizabeth Rollo and she died and he subsequently married Helen Kenley? Could Helen be John's step-mother?
Secondly, who was the informant on John's death certificate?
Happy to be of help. ;D
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Good Evening,
Thanks for your suggestions. John Walton's birth entry gives his parents as John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo - all confirmed by death certs and marriage entries etc. There are several variations of 'Helen Kenley' but not in connection with John Walton. It must have been a significant name for him as my grandmother carries it as her middle name. Maybe there was some informal arrangement between families that cannot be verified.
Thanks for all your advice. You have been most helpful. Good hunting! Regards, Mundell
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Would either of you have any suggestions as to why the parents' names on Janet and Johns marriage cert. are so wrong? Hawkey, perhaps can more easily be understood. But John obviously thought his mother was Helen Kenley. They gave this as a middle name to their daughter Alice who was my Grandmother. I am trying to attach a copy of their marriage cert. for your info.
Anyway, thanks again for your helpful guidance. Regards, Mundell
The fact that the marriage-certificate says nothing about Helen Kenley's maiden name is a dead give-away, and shows that she was not married to John Walton's father, John Walton senior. I have seen this many times on certificates. Helen Kenley would actually have been her maiden name. Obviously she managed to get the father to admit paternity, or she wouldn't have been allowed to call their illegitimate son after him.
John Walton junior must have been born around 1839-40 but there seems to be no birth-entry for him in the OPR. However, an illegitimate child was often baptised in private by the minister and the details entered in the kirk-session records rather than the parish records. Sometimes both sets of records are kept in the same book, but often the kirk-session records were kept in separate registers.
It's only because of kirk-session records that I know the paternity of my great-grandfather James Peebles, whose birth and baptism in 1853 are only recorded in the Crail kirk-session records. His father was also called James Peebles.
Incidentally, that James Peebles senior (my 2 x great-grandfather) had a half-brother called David Peebles who married an Ann "Kinley" at Scoonie in 1878. I imagine Kinley and Kenley are the "same" name. The Fifers tend to pronounce an i as an open e- sound, and let's face it, a lot of them couldn't read and write in those days, let alone spell correctly!
Harry
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Hello Harry,
Thanks for the contact and interesting info. I didn't know about the dual registers.
I did not notice, or realise the significance of there being no maiden name. Since HubbellGardiner's comment alerted me to this, I have been having thoughts along the lines you mentioned. However, John Walton's death cert. clearly gives his parents as John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo. I then found a OPR entry for John Walton Junior's birth in December 1842 to John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo. Having said that, he gives his age as 21 at his marriage in 1860.
The name Kenley, Kinley and variations occur in several places, so I don't know how far I can take this. For Example there is a boy child born and died on the same day in 1838 to Andrew Kenley and Ann Rolls. In 1834 there is a marriage of Ann Rollo to a Thomas Kinlay and in 1844 this same Ann (Rollo) Kinlay died. But I cannot find a birth connected to this couple. I know this is not a 'Helen', but I am just wondering if there is a connection at all with Elizabeth Rollo, and that maybe there has been an accommodation within the wider family.
I also note that John and Elizabeth did not name their first son John.
Anyway, I shall file your info. away and find it useful in the future. Regards, Mundell
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Hello Harry and HubbellGardiner,
Just one more question, if you don't mind, before I exit this topic.
I don't suppose that the kirk-session records are digitized, are they? I couldn't be that lucky! Looking at the Parish Register entry, it does look as though John Walton's birth entry looks very cramped and could have been squeezed in at the very top, but I might be being fanciful.
Reason is that I have another similar, but different, situation with the Mundell strand of this family. My Grandmother Alison 'Kenley' Walton Married Robert Glendinning Mundell in 1909. He gave his birth age as 35 and his parents as Robert Mundell and Mary m.s. Munro.
I can't find this couple anywhere. I have found a birth for Robert Glendinning Mundell in 1871 to James Mundell and Mary m.s. Currie. (Her mother's m.s was Glendinning). I am inclined to assume that this is him. If the writing is difficult, Currie could be misconstrued as Munroe, But James Mundell? and 1871? Unfortunately, Robert G's death Cert. is little help as he died in service with the 14th Royal Scots Regiment in 1915 and is buried in Weymouth. Unfortunately also, English documentation has fewer details eg. regarding birth parents, than the Scottish documents.
I haven't been successful in finding his Service records either.
It's another intrigue and most likely a similar issue to that you have both hi-lighted.
Any further info. you might suggest would be much appreciated.
Regards, Mundell
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I don't believe that the kirk-session records have yet been digitised, although I imagine they will be eventually. When I started doing genealogy, in about 1980, all the kirk-session records were kept in what was then the Scottish Record Office (now the National Archives of Scotland) right next door to Register House in Edinburgh, which was really convenient if you happened to live in Edinburgh.
Then, at a later date, the decision was taken to decentralise these records, and if a particular area happened to have an appropriate library or archive to house them, the records were sent there, e.g. East Fife kirk-session records were sent to St. Andrews University library.
The only Mundell I know of is David Mundell, the Dumfriesshire MP, the only Conservative member of parliament in Scotland.
Harry
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Hi again Mundell
I've had a look for a marriage of a Robert Mundell to a Mary Munro but I couldn't find any matches either. :( To be honest I think the 1871 birth you found for Robert Glendinning Mundell is probably your man. The age is only about 3 years out on the marriage certificate and the middle name is very distinct. Surely there can't have been 2 different men called Robert Glendinning Mundell of a simlilar age in a similar area at the same time ;D
With regard to Robert's service records, about two thirds of ww1 service records were destroyed in a fire during ww2 so often you will be unable to find a record even if you have details of the regiment someone served in.
I've had a look on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website (www.cwgc.org) and there is a listing for Robert. Unfortunately there are no details of family members but it does give his service number, rank and details of the cemetery where he is buried including a photograph of the cemetery. If you haven't seen the listing you will find Robert listed as R G Mundell.
Hope this information helps. :)
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Hello again,
Yes, I think this must be my grandfather. It was the different names given for his parents that bothered me, but both could be errors of transcription. Especially with the Glendinning name link through the mother's family. So I think I can feel comfortable with that.
That is sad about the WW1 record destruction. I didn't know that. I tried hard to see if there was any archives I could explore on the regimental website without success. I wanted to see if he had served in France and to try to find out if the condition (pneumonia and pulmonary embolism), was trench warfare related. Yes, once I realised he had not died in Scotland, I was able to find those details, which solved yet another mystery for me. I wish I had known where his grave was when I was down that way a couple of years ago. As I said, Unfortunately, English death certificates (and other documents) are much less detailed and one can't see those images online.
Thank you for all your help. You have given me some very useful tips and I have learned a lot.
Regards, Mundell
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Hi again Mundell
If you are looking for general information about where your grandfather served during WW1 you could try www.1914-1918.net
The site has a great deal of information about WW1 in general and the movements of all the different regiments during WW1. It also details the movements of specific battalions of each regiment.
Happy to be of help. ;D
Regards,
HubbellGardiner
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Hello again HubbellGardiner,
That is one great website, with such a lot of useful information of other record collections and how to use them. Thank you so much. Having thanked Rootschatters for all of the assistance I have received, I was about to sign off on this topic, although I will continue to pursue my family research. You have been particularly encouraging and generous with your knowledge and experience. hdw too. Thank you both again.
Regards, Mundell
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I know this is an old post but came across it while googling Lambuletham while researching my Brown ancestors.. my father's maternal side.
I have Andrew Brown who married Elizabeth H ? as the brother of my 3 x great grandfather Peter Brown b. 1802 in Kilconquhar. I have their daughter Janet marrying John Walton, his parents as John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo.
As I have Waltons on my father's paternal side checked my tree and lo and behold -
John Walton snr b. 1809 in Dairsie was the son of Robert Walton who was the brother of my 3 x great grandmother Euphemia Walton who's son Robert Kirkcaldy (my 2 x great grandfather) was his cousin! Small world indeed.
Incidentally on my GR tree I have the source of my info on John Walton and Elizabeth Rollo as Mundell ! :)
Jenc
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Just sourced Andrew Browns death certificate..he died on the 4th September 1886 at Links Street Kirkcaldy ' married to Elizabeth Halket and son of William Brown and Margaret Finlay