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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Johnsonsyard on Monday 11 April 11 21:29 BST (UK)
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My ancestors were Stonemasons up to 1815 from throughout the C18th in the same village in North Yorkshire.Does anyone know what training they would have had or would they have been part of a Guild ?
Thanks
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as an historical fact it was the stonemasons who led to the free masons starting and as to a guild try this site www.masonlivery.co.uk .
regarding training it , no doubt is the same as many other trades a matter of joining a firm of masons and being trained up with time in college as well also depending on the type of work being undertaken an ability to draw and art is a bonus as well .
regards
trevor
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Hmmm. I think for most it was a case of learning on the job from mainly relatives. Once you get beyond 1800 the term "Stonemason" could mean anything from someone who filled in holes in the road to someone who designed St Pauls. The majority tended to the former.
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Well, Supermoussi, all the stonemasons in my family helped build buildings.
They are of Irish extraction, came to Australia as 'ag labs' but worked as stonemasons in Sydney.
This was early to mid 1800s and many of their buildings still exist I'm pleased to say.
I've never heard of road workers being called stonemasons???
??? ??? ???
Dawn M
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i,m with dawn if you,ve heard of stonemasons filling in potholes then it must be some sort of derogatory term for them as a proper stone mason was and is a highly skilled man especially those that specialise in the carving side of it go round any cathederal or church and look at the work entailled in the columns and arches the vaulted ceilings especially all held together just by one piece of stone fitting tightly to another that isn,t the work of someone who fills holes in the road , i,m sorry but your way off the mark if you believe that
trevor
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Sorry but we'll have to disagree I'm afraid. Some of my ancestors were Stonemasons so just in case you think I am sniping I am not.
I do not think you have looked further back in time, enough. The description of occupations has also changed over time, e.g. someone referred to as a "servant" of a university in the 1800s would likely be a porter, etc whereas a "servant" of a university in the 1500s could well be the chancellor.
People that carved inscriptions were often called Stonecutters. What I said about Stonemasons still holds.
Quarriers, Road Fillers, Wall builders, House builders, Architects were all covered by the term.
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i appreciate that a name can be taken out of context but when you say go beyond 1800 and the name stone mason could mean any thing then i feel your on dodgy ground if you go right back stone masons mostly originate from europe when the church wanted more and more ornate and tall buildings as a place of worship instead of the wattle and daub that they were used to masons came over and started to build bigger and better than the next person town or place as i said free msonry came out of this time with those that were protecting themselves from the non masons and so it grew and what they were protecting was the skill in how to build something that wouldn,t fall down they were in fact engineers in there own right with only there hands and minds as a means to carry this out ,ok anyone can say i,m a stone mason someone who has the skill to build a dry stone wall can say i,m a stone mason but he,s not he,s a dry stone wall builder nothing more but it,s still a skill most can,t acheive , i spent 40 odd years as a bricklayer now i could say i was a master bricklayer as a lot do but i wasn,t and never professed to be i could do the job but that was it .
regards
trevor
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They were, and still are, called Stonemasons, and not Builders, quite simply because they transform and place stone. Whether the finished article is a house or a monument or a wall is immaterial.
Nowadays we live in a society that takes pretty good care of everyone, but back in the "good ole days" if you couldn't find work you and your kids would starve/freeze to death. If a stonemason came to the end of a big job on a church or townhall, and had lined up another project in another town, but it didn't start for a month, what do you think he did?:-
1) went on a holiday to the Maldives for four weeks
2) took small jobs to tide him over wherever he could find them, i.e. fixing a hole in a farmer's wall, building a funerary monument for the local esquire or even filling in the great bog pothole at the end of the vicar's drive..
Returning to the OP's original question the vast majority of people couldn't afford to send their chidlren into education or even to pay a Master craftsman to apprentice them. Trade's tended to stay in the family so a child was likely taught by his father, an uncle or an in-law.
If the OP's family were masons throughout the 1700s it sounds like they would have been able to provide all the on the job training you could ever need. Why pay someone else to teach your kid when you can do it yourself?
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i wasn,t and haven,t said that if a mason didn,t have work for a few weeks he would do nothing and to say would he take off to the maldives is totally unecessary in the context of a discussion about what a mason would or wouldn,t do the main issue which you seem to be moving away from is the statement you made.
saying that the name stonemason could be anyone who filled in holes in the road to someone who designed st pauls , THE MAJORITY BEING THE FORMER that is the crux of this i,m sorry but i can,t except such a rash statement as fact .
trevor
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As a stonemason you must be able to:
* estimate the quantity of materials required by measuring surfaces or reviewing a work order;
* interpret drawings and blueprints and calculate the materials required;
* measure from an established starting point and construct corners first, using a plumb line and mason's level to ensure each layer will be level from corner to corner;
* cut and shape stones or other masonry materials using machine or hand tools, taking into account the characteristics of the stone being used;
* cut and polish granite and marble for use in construction, such as kitchen bench tops ;
* design, cut and carve monumental masonry, such as memorial tablets and bases for statues, using templates for detailed work and a variety of chisels, punches and hammers depending on the type of stone being used;
* cut lettering into stonework by marking out the letters, and then cutting or chiselling them with hand-held tools or sandblasting equipment;
* construct walls using stone slabs and large masonry slab blocks;
* lay stone paving, granite or marble floor tiles;
* fix stone facades to buildings;
* repair and replace stonework on old buildings, churches and monuments;
* remove excess fixing agents after the masonry material is in position;
* use a hammer and chisel or masonry saw to cut stone to fit, as required.
I would say a proper Stone Mason is a pretty skilled individual. If you had that skill then I would reckon you would be pretty clued up in the method of road building or doing most things with stone however most ordinary people would not reasonably assume that a person described as a stone cutter would be involved in carving etc or realising a concept ( IMO)
Stonemasons Guild is probably one of the oldest.
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I'm with t'mo!
Deebel covers it all fairly completely.
I know my stonemasons were certainly skilled - must have been for their work to be still standing over 150 years later!
Dawn M
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This made us smile. A branch of my ancestors were stonemasons. We were in a Cotswold churchyard looking at gravestones and found some of the family in question - all still in readable condition - whilst all those around were so pitted and worn as to be indecipherable. Can't you just imagine them saying "let's have a nice bit of stone for our so and so...?"
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Some stimulating discussions , but from what I know about my ancestors Deebel's contribution seems to be the best fit. It is recorded that work was done on the Hall belonging to the Squire in 1734 and they were involved in the building of the mill. I have also seen stone carved initials ( quite beautiful)of my ancestors in the garden of the house where they once lived. many thanks everyone , I have enjoyed following this thread.
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I have been told by my father, (whose father was a stonemason) that he used to engrave the words on to grave stones. In the local cemetry where I come from my grandads business name is on alot of grave stones.
Also he was in with the Free Masons, my dad was only young, so not really known what that was properly. I was told they are a group of people who put money together for things? not sure can anyone tell me more??
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Thomas Witter of Wrightington, Lancashire was born about 1720. He was a stonemason. His father was also Thomas and also a stonemason. I know it is a long shot, but does anyone know aboiut this location?
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Is it Wrightington near Chorley? I know that quarrying was the industry in Whittle-le-Woods, north of Chorley. Stone was transported by canal to Wigan.
I'm also from a long line of stonemasons, (early 18th-late 19thC), originating further north in the county - Cockerham, Forton, Garstang, Lancaster. One moved to Longridge and one of his sons moved to Preston. Longridge has the oldest row of houses built by a building society. Longridge quarries provided stone for Preston. The Preston stonemason's grandson eventually became a contractor when brick took over from stone. The stonemason ancestor born early 18thC had a long life, qualified to vote as a freeholder, could read & write and left around £100 in his will. His son, grandsons and g. grandsons were not as fortunate, less educated and many died before they were 50, some aged in their 20s & 30s.
Canal and railways were crucial in development of the industry.
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Enjoyed this feed
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My ancestors did 7 year apprenticeships to be stonemasons. One was a frequent witness to the marriage of others, so I wonder if he was often called in from working on the church, or headstones.
Martin
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Thankyou for your contributions. Since this post I have more time to dedicate to family history and found that my ancestors were Master Masons and have found evidence of what they were involved in constructing in the area in which they lived. There if also evidence of ornate carvings in their garden in Gothic script and creation of their own family Tombstones. I am right to distinguish between masons and Master Masons ?
Regards
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The Master Mason was entitled to carve his MARK on specially selected keystones. His mark was a personal mark which was unique to him. His lesser masons would eventually be Tested and permitted to make their Mark. Freemasonry uses the model of a Guild, including the Stonemason's Guild as told in the Legend of Hiram Abiff, the Master Mason who was murdered by his false apprentices. It is all symbolic, it's meant to imbue the non stonemason with the virtues and moral and ethical code as a way to conduct themselves in their daily dealings with others. However, The Gentry and Royalty took control over the movement ... probably why Ordinary persons are not interested in joining these days. Why would you join an organisation which recruited the top echelon only from the Great but not so Good. So, Apprentice to Mason, then Master Mason and once with a Mark, a Mark Master Mason. Then within a Lodge there is a hierarchy up to Master of the Lodge, then Provincial and Grand. Without holding high office it is still possible to progress through the various degrees through the Royal Arch to the Knights Templars, but there are many side orders. It is not a Secret Society but a Society with Secrets.
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I am right to distinguish between masons and Master Masons ?
Progression in a craft began as apprentice. When a young man had completed his apprenticeship he was a journeyman, a qualified artisan, working for a wage. Some men remained as journeymen throughout their working lives. Others progressed further to become masters in their craft. A craftsman had to prove that he was worthy to become a master. He would submit a piece of work, his masterpiece, for approval by members of his guild.