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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: zulucharles on Sunday 01 May 11 03:32 BST (UK)
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Folks,
Ozzie (beginner at this) requires major help please. I have tracked the family history in Australia and have got to where a great grandfather died under the name of Zulu Charles Schuter Lord. His father appears to have been Charles Schuter (Shooter) Lord but he also died and was buried under the name of Zulu Charles Schuter Lord in 1933. His death record indicates he was born around 1849/50 in Manchester, UK. His father is recorded on the death certificate as Samuel Lord who supposedly was a Sgt Major in the Marines and his mother apparently was Elizabeth Smith. Both of his parents were dead by 1901 according to his Australian marriage records. So far I have not had any luck with internet searches of UK records for either Charles or Samuel.
If anyone could shed some light on this it would be appreciated. The use of ZULU in the name is what got me started in the first place and is really intriguing me. Many thanks.......
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Hello
Charles Shooter Lord was born June quarter 1850 Chorlton Lancashire 20 165
Maybe Zulu was a nickname
Pam
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Charles Schuter Lord was born sept quarter 1897 blackburn Lancashire 83 361
Charles Schuter Lord birth place Blackburn Lancashire living Gorton Manchester died 1st July 1916 Flanders France
Enlistment Location Ashton under Lyne Lancashire
Rank Private
Manchester Regiment 2nd Battalion
Number 2166
killed in action
Looking at the Australian Electoral Records
Zulu Charles Shuter Lord was in the district of Gwydir New South Wales from two listings for 1930 1 for 1936 and 1 for 1943
I cannot view the pages
marriages for Zulu C S Lord to Elizabeth Legge
and Elsie M Urouhart father and son??
1 birth in Australia and only 1 death 1933
Pam
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1851 census,
32 Garden Street Ardwick Manchester,
HO107, 220.175 Page 7
Samuel Lord ,velvet dresser and Greenwich pensionner, aged 51 born Manchester,
Elizabeth wife ,aged 40, born Nottingham Culton,
William aged 16 born Woolwich Kent,velvet dresser
Samuel aged 8,born Manchester
Elllen,aged 6 born Manchester
Elizabethaged 3 born Manchester
Charles,aged 1 Manchester
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1871 census Leigh,Lancashire,
33 St Thomas Street,
RG10,3912
lodging with
Thomas Sharrock ,a boilermaker
Elizabeth Lord a widow born Nottingham,Dressmaker
Thomas aged 20 born Manchester ,a boiler maker,
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Hiya... www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
1850 LORD Charles Shooter Ardwick Manchester ARD/20/87
allan
added....same site
1897 Lord Charles Shuter Great Harwood Preston (mothers maiden name INGHAM) G.HAR/58/46
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Good morning Allan,
thankyou so that makes the census details more likely,to be the Charles Lord the poster is looking for,
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Good morning Radcliff.....there are TWO Lord -Ingham...marriages
1892 John Hague Lord to Catherine Sarah Ingham st John the divine Cloughfold Preston CE20/1/12
1896 John William Lord Cecilia Ingham Blackburn reg office/reg attended Blackburn RM/126/163
I think the Cloughfold marriage looks more likely....we need to find Charles Shuter Lord in 1901 census aged 3 or 4 with his parents....then we will see which marriage is his parents
allan :)
ADDED...hang on 1890 Benjamin Lord to Elizabeth E Ingham Rochdale reg off/reg attended Rochdale RM/84/103
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Thats easy to find little Charles is with the Inghams,
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1901 census,Manchester,Gorton Ardwick Manchester
RG13/3686
9 Harvest Street,
William Ingham,aged 24, wood packing cure maker
Hannah J Ingham,aged 21
Cecilia Ingham,aged 10 months
Cecilia Lord,aged 25, sister ,married,hankerchief machinist crossed over by shirt maker,
Charles S Lord aged 3,nephew,Born Rushton
all the rest born Manchester,
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aha...the marriage..
1st march 1835 at Saint Mary Magdelene Woolwich,Kent - Samuel Lord to Elizabeth Smith Extracted record
www.familysearch.org
fits nicely with the birth of William Lord aged 16 in Woolwich,Kent in the 1851 census
allan :)
just seen your post Radcliff...great...ha ha...I got it wrong...Cecilia ...so it was the Blackburn marriage...
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So
Charles Shuter Lord born 1897 Great Harwood- father Charles Shooter Lord / mother Cecilia Ingham
Charles Shooter Lord b 1850 Ardwick,Manchester father Samuel Lord / mother Elizabeth Smith
Samuel Lord married Elizabeth Smith 1st March 1835 St Mary Magdelen ,Woolwich,Kent
now...Samuel Lord born 1799/1800 Manchester...lets see if we can find him
allan
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familysearch 1797 to 1802 ...only one in Manchester
8th december 1799 at Manchester Cathedral the christening of Samuel Lord ....ggrrr...no parents named
extracted record
allan
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Nobody seems to have mentioned the possibility that one of your guys fought in the Zulu war (including Rorke's Drift) - South Africa 1879
Linda
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Folks,
Thanks for the effort so far. Unfortunately I am getting lost trying to understand all the posts.
One sent recently by Garnosite stated
" Charles Shooter Lord b 1850 Ardwick,Manchester father Samuel Lord / mother Elizabeth Smith
Samuel Lord married Elizabeth Smith 1st March 1835 St Mary Magdelen ,Woolwich,Kent"
This makes sense with what I already know from Oz records. The 1901 marriage documents in Bingara,NSW between Zulu Charles Shouter Lord (aged 51 from Manchester England,) and Elizabeth Legg ( aged 44 from Paterson NSW) stated father of Zulu was a Samuel Lord (deceased), and listed fathers occupation as Sgt Major, Marines. Zulus mother was listed as Elizabeth Smith (deceased).
With what I have seen in your helpful posts it would appear that the above text from Garnosite is correct but I cannot fathom the Sgt Major, Marines part. I thought maybe Samuel was in a branch of the UK military. Again something that I have been unable to trace from Oz. Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
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Samuel is a Greenwich pensioner,so you need to look that up,he has served in the forces and been in active service some where,
If you are getting lost with the posts print them of and read them again,
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The National archives have a document that may relate to Samuel,
Admiralty,Royal navy continuous service engagement books
Name Samuel Lord,
Place of birth ,Manchester,
Date of volunteering 2ND of April 1863,
Continuous service number,12383A,
Catalogue, Adm 139/524
Just google the site and use the search box,
you can pay on line and down load ,
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Many thanks to all for the information provided.
Radcliff - I will check out the Greenwich pensioner item. At this stage I will not check the Admiralty records showing a Samuel Lord volunteering in 1863. That would have made him at least 50-55yrs old when that happened following his marriage in 1835 to Elizabeth.
I now believe that the son, Charles S Lord, was born 1850 in Ardwick, Manchester. He married a Mary Hemmings in 1892 in Oz (no children) and she died in 1900. He then married Elizabeth Legg as Zulu Charles Shouter Lord in 1901 in Oz and they had a child registered as Zulu Charles Shouter Lord in 1903.
There is a gap in my knowledge from Charles's birth in 1850 till his marriage in Oz in 1892.
Are there any record of a Charles S Lord in the UK military between 1860 and 1892 as he would have been about 20-30yrs old around the time of the South African/Zulu wars?
Any other suggestions would be appreciated?
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Onboard the hospital ship Dreadnought in the 1841 census ,Greenwich,
there is a 15 year old William Lord,apprentice born in county,
HO107/489/19
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National Archives has Royal Marines attestation and discharge papers for a Samuel Lord of the right age:
Samuel Lord, born: Manchester, Lancashire; Age at attestation: 18; Attested: Woolwich; Joined in: 1818; Discharge reason: Served 21 years; Discharge year: 1839.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-5509759&j=1
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Thank you very much for the information ,saves the gentleman paying to down load, I knew there was information in there but for some reason I find the National archives site difficult to use,
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Thanks once again for the information on Samuel.
Is there anyway I can purchase or download his actual Marine military record? - so that I can determine regiments, where he operated, rank obtained etc??
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I am not sure what will be in his records ,but as I said the national archives UK have some information,you just have to determine if it is him,before you pay to down load,there is also a site for the Greenwich pensioners ,I am not again sure what you will find there but he obviously had a pension coming in to state he was one.We will keep chipping away ,others coming across your posting may find some thing else of interest.
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Ordinarily you can order, online, a copy of a record held by the National Archives but the service is closed today. Try it tomorrow. From memory you specify what you are interested in and they come back to you by email with a quote.
The archive reference you need for the Marine born circa 1800 is ADM 157/674/3
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/recordcopying/
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Some Chelsea Pensioner Papers and Service records are on www.findmypast.co.uk
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In 1861 there is a Samuel Lord, 19, born Manchester, at Woolwich as a soldier at the Royal Artillery Barracks.
He matches your Charles's brother from the 1851 pretty well.
Eldest brother William appears to have married Ann (Waterhouse in 1857?) and has a baby son Frederick William at Ardwick in 1861 (RG9/2870 ED13 FOL57 P12).
I have not located other family members yet. Charles S would have been about 11 - not old enough to join up, so they HAVE to be around somewhere.
The RA were definitely active in the Zulu War. I wonder if Charles joined the same regiment as Samuel junior?
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1871 census Leigh,Lancashire,
33 St Thomas Street,
RG10,3912
lodging with
Thomas Sharrock ,a boilermaker
Elizabeth Lord a widow born Nottingham,Dressmaker
Thomas aged 20 born Manchester ,a boiler maker,
It's not very clear, but I reckon RG10/3912 ED7 FOL12 P16 reads:
Thomas Sharrock, Head, Mar, 29, Boiler maker, Lancashire Liverpool
Elizabeth Lord, Lodger, Widow, 59, Seamstress, Nottinghamshire Carlton
CHARLES Lord, Lodger, 20, Boiler maker, Lancashire Manchester
Still no sign in 1861.
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Found them in 1861 at last!
7 Berwick St, Chorlton on Medlock (RG9/2877 ED1 FOL17 P27), transcribed as LOW, but the end letter is the same shape as that on a Schofield further down.
Samuel Lord, Head, Mar, 60, Coal scaler & G pensioner, Manchester
Elizabeth, Wife, Mar, 49, , Nottinghamshire
Charles, Son, Un, 11, , Manchester
Cecilia, Daur, Un, 9, , Manchester
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Folks,
A couple of quick questions. Andrewalston provides census information 1861. Samuel Lord, Head, Mar, 60 Coal scaler & G pensioner. Manchester
I assume this means Samuel Lord, Head of family, married, aged 60? the record then states Charles, Son, UN, 11, Manchester. --- What does abbreviation Un stand for?
The 1851 census information provided by Radcliffe for 32 Garden Street Ardwick Manchester,HO107, 220.175 Page 7
Samuel Lord ,velvet dresser and G pensionner, aged 51 born Manchester, Elizabeth wife ,aged 40, born Nottingham Culton, William aged 16 born Woolwich Kent,velvet dresser, Samuel aged 8,born Manchester,Ellen,aged 6 born Manchester
Elizabethaged 3 born Manchester, Charles,aged 1 Manchester - so ages etc tend to match. Samuels job is significantly different.
The 1871 census information from andrewalston has Samuel dead, his widow, Elizabeth as a Seamstress , Charles Lord, Lodger 20 Boiler maker. - Charles in his marriage certificate in Oz 20 Sept 1892 to Mary Hemmings stated his occupation as Engine Fitter. This would possibly be a spin off from boiler maker.
Anyone been able to find father Samuels death recorded between 1861 and 1871 census?
And I am now also curious as to what happened to possible sister Cecilia who would have been 19 in 1871?
Australian BDM certificates that I have obtained so far show that he recorded himself as Charles S Lord in 1892 (first marriage NSW) Charles S Lord when first wife died 1900; and in June 1901 (second marriage, NSW) he changed to Zulu Charles S Lord and also stated that his father and mother were deceased. He then had a son in 1903 who was registered as Zulu Charles Shouter Lord.
We potentially have father Samuel ex military died before 1871, brother Samuel possible military with RA in 1861. When/where did brother Samuel die? Was this the trigger for his use of Zulu?
I also have been unable to find any records for his arrival in Australia as yet between 1871 and his marriage in 1892. I will keep looking, Gotta be there somewhere........
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Cecilia Lord,
daughter Samuel Lord and Elizabeth,
born 19 th of March 1852,
abode Ardwick,
fathers occupation Velvet dresser,
St Thomas Ardwick, 21st July 1852
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Hello,
'UN' will mean unmarried
There are several deaths in Chorlton area for Samuel Lord- some before the age at death was recorded. However, there is one
Dec 1869 Chorlton 8c 401
Samuel Lord 68yrs
regards
heywood
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St Marks Hulme,
12 th December 1870,
John Owen (x) a butcher, and batchelor, of 12 Riga Street,
Cecilia Lord (x) spinster of 13 Riga street,
Grooms father, Joseph Owen a carter,
Brides father, Samuel Lord, soldier,
witness John Johnson and Ann Oates ,both made a cross beside their names,
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two children baptised ,
St Marks Gorton,
Jane Owen, 6 th of September 1874,
Walter William Owen ,5 th of August 1877,
abode W.Gorton
father John a butcher mother Cecilia /Cicily
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There are a couple of Samuel Lord deaths registered in the area in 1862/3 before ages were recorded in the GRO index, but my bet would be the one in Q4 of 1869, Chorlton 8c 401, age 68 (FreeBMD).
Not transcribed on LancashireBMD yet, so don't know subdistrict.
DOH! Just realised Heywood had posted this very thing.
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UN was what they put on the census returns for UNmarried...I know it seems ridiculous for a lad of 11 but that was the normal thing to write at the time.....allan
ha ha...sorry Heywood ...didn`t see your post earlier on....ignore me...silly old custard that I am
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Another beginners question - Radcliffe provided marriage details for Cecilia in 1870 which stated Father samuel lord, soldier. In 1870 he was probably dead according to Heywood and others also according to earlier posts he left the military in 1839 and was in the various census documents as a velvet dresser and then a coal scaler.
Does the 1870 marriage document statement of father, soldier mean anything ? or is it just because Samuel Snr was a Greenwich pensioner and proud of his military history? Any thoughts, comments.....
Also Samuel Jr (born 2/4/1845 Manchester, Lancashire) archived attestation record confirms Samuel Lord and Elizabeth Lord/smith as parents. He joined at Hartings as Boy 2nd class, age 15 on 16/8/1860 with an acceptance of a further ten years of service from 2/4/1863. No death, discharge, ship or service history were attached to the attestation record. Military signatories of his joining form/medical were Captain or Commander B. Harris and R Cook (or possibly R. Coolie) and a commanding Officer of Ship as Thomas Wilson.
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Hi ZC
Just been reading through your thread - and haven't they found lots of info for you ;)
My thoughts on the ZUZU addition were exactly as Danuslave's. Possibly started as a nickname because of his service and then adopted for its curiosity value. Wonder if any others did the same?
As for 'soldier' on the 1871 marriage cert, they call for father's name and occupation.
I have a name of Anthony as father of one bride; searched high and low and everywhichway before I realised that he was fictitious :-X
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I don't think they must have always asked if father was deceased so the reply to father's name and occupation was just given. This often causes confusion for us.
As msr says, dad's name could also be invented. I searched for years for a 'John' only to find that he was 'Osborne' but still not sure if he was the dad as he committed suicide around the time of child's apparent birth which I can't confirm as no baptism and different census ages ::)
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If only they knew the problems they were going to cause us
::) ;D ;D
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Occupation, especially that used on a marriage certificate, can at times be only vaguely related to the job they did.
People tend to talk up the occupation, so as to be "posher". Thus one "Council executive" turned out to mean road sweeper.
In this case, "Soldier" probably means the job that father was most proud of doing (and probably spent ages telling stories about), though he spent years doing other things. It also narrows down his branch of the military. He was a Greenwich pensioner, which means Royal Navy, so "soldier" must mean the Royal Marines, which matches up exactly with the original post. I always find this sort of cross referencing satisfying.
The presence or absence of "deceased" can only be taken as an indication. Some people lose touch with their families. Sometimes the question wasn't asked. At a recent marriage I attended (bride and groom both well over 70), the certificate didn't mention the word.
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National archives are coming back to me with a quote for getting Samuel Snr's docs which hopefully will provide me with some service history. If I have done it correctly then a picture should be attached to this post of both Charles S Lord and his son Zulu Charles Shouter Lord. the picture is like a postcard and appears to be 2 small photo's joined together. The back of the postcard is annotated with the words C Lord and (Sun of Guner (crossed out)) Grandfather Lord. The reason that I have added the picture it is to see if anyone has any idea what he lapel medallion may be. Unfortunately the original photo does not give any more detail than the shape. Any thoughts?
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Sorry - photo should be attached this time.....
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Completed - To all the people who responded, Thanks for your assistance. I am still working at it but at this stage I have troubled you enough and you have more than answered my initial question.
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pte 2166 charles schuter lord lived at 54 josiah st,west gorton when he was killed in action,he was aged 18,his father was listed as being at nichols hospital,hyde rd,gorton and his mother cecilia at 10 beech st,gorton
mack
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Manmack - thanks. Do you have a year? as this information is slightly confusing. Mother was Elizabeth and Cecilia was a sister born 1852 of Charles but he had a father in the marines (samuel snr died Chorlton about 1869)) and two brothers (William born 1835 and Samuel born 1843). Samuel Jr was also in the marines and on a ship/shore in Sth Africa around zulu war times. As far as I know Cecilia had two children to a man with named John Owen in 1873 and 1877 in Gorton.
I have no other record of another child called Charles Shooter Lord - it maybe a third to cecilia?