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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Lodger on Tuesday 03 May 11 12:07 BST (UK)
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I have photographs of the following headstones from the ancient churchyard of Cambusnethan. This was the site of the original, pre-reformation parish church of Cambusnethan. The church was abandoned about 1647 and re-located to Greenhead. (That church now lies in ruins).
All that's left here is the graveyard and it is in the most deplorable condition. The vandals have wrecked it beyond recognition. Beautiful old medieval stones, a huge mausoleum belonging to Lord and Lady Belhaven, the burial vaults of the Steuarts of Coltness and the Lockharts of Castlehill, have all either been demolished or vandalised. The biggest culprit was the former local authority - the Burgh of Motherwell & Wishaw back in the 1960s. A bulldozer was sent down to clear away about a quarter of the stones in order that an Orange parade could march to the Covenanter's grave. (This has now disappeared).
Monumental Inscriptions were transcribed by a Mr Brownlee about 1974, they have never been published but a copy is with the Scottish Genealogy Society in Edinburgh. Other people may have made transcriptions but the 1974 ones will be way more accurate as the vandals hadn't honed their skills so well then.
To reach this burial ground is not easy! It is at the very end of Kirkhill Road in Netherton and can only be accessed on foot, down a steep hill. I had to climb over a waist-high gate, so be warned.
Anyone who wants a photograph please send your email address by PM.
ADDISON of Banffshire.
BELL & GOURLIE.
BINNIE & SOMMERVILLE.
BROWNLEE & FRENCH.
BROWNLIE & FERGUSON.
BROWNLIE & NEILSON.
BROWNLIE & NISBET.
BROWNLIE & RUSSELL.
DOBIE, JOHNSTON, INGLIS, MURRAY & WHARRIE.
FORREST. Freemason.
GILCHRIST & GOURLIE.
GOURLIE & PRENTICE.
GRAY.
HAMILTON & ADDIE.
HAMILTON & McALPINE.
HAMILTON, BARRIE, FRAME & THOMSON.
INGLIS & DUNCAN.
KENNEDY & SMELLIE.
LAWRIE & TROTTER.
LEGGATE, CAMERON, CRANSTON & MACKIE.
LIVINGSTON & McGRIGOR.
LOTHIAN, LANG & PEARSTON.
LOTHIAN & VEITCH.
LOUDON.
LOUDON & THOMSON.
MARSHALL & SCOTT.
MARSHALL & SOMMERVILLE.
McKINNON, SMITH & SMELLIE.
MONRO, GIBSON & ALEXANDER.
NELSON, STODDART & MIDDLETON.
NICOL & BROWNLEE.
NIVEN.
PATERSON & JACKSON.
PEARSON.
REID & PATERSON.
REID & TORRANCE.
ROBERTSON & STEEL.
SOMMERVILLE, RUSSELL & BAILEY.
WATT, Margaret, servant to Lord & Lady Belhaven.
WILLIAMSON.
WILLIAMSON & BURN.
YEATS of Gowkthrapple.
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To show the extent of the vandalism, here is a picture of the gravestone of Margaret Watt. Thanks to the late Thomas Orr of Motherwell, we are left with a full transcription, taken from his "Historic & Decriptive Sketches of the joint Burgh of Motherwell & Wishaw 1925".
"In memory of Margaret Watt, a true Christian, and for upwards of thirty years the faithful and highly esteemed servant of Lord and Lady Belhaven, who deeply lament her loss and placed this stone as a tribute of respect and regard. "The righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance". Died 5th June 1862".
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Hello Lodger, Thanks for your generous offer of a photo. Unfortunately, I'm unable to pm at present as I haven't made enough posts........ :-[ I'm interested in the BELL & GOURLIE headstone as I'm currently researching this family. Can you tell me what I do to get my email address to you? ;)
thanks
ScotFamTed
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Hi Ted, if you make another 2 posts you'll be allowed to PM.
The inscription on the stone reads -
"Erected by William Bell and Margaret Gourlie in memory of their son William who died 1st May 1811 in the 23rd year of his age".
The picture I have is too big to post here, sorry.
Lodger.
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:)Thanks Lodger! very much appreciated! ;) I'll go and see if I can be of any help on any threads and get back to you ;D
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hello i found this site as i was trying to research this graveyard as morbid as it sounds when i was a teenager i used to do grave rubbing here as i only lived up the road.
this is a link to someone i found on google who has taken lots of photos here that i thought you all would like to see :) :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlovestandpics/with/7220430384/#photo_7220430384
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Hi greeneyedlad
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Monica
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hi Monica
thank you very much.
am i right in saying this site can help me find my family tree??
Martin x
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Hi Martin
RootsChat is all about people working on their family histories, with like minded people offering to help with searches and information along the way.
Why don't you start a new post for your specific family queries or issues. Better than adding that info to this ongoing thread which is specific to Lodger and his work on the Kirkhill burial ground.
Monica :)
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I find it incredibly sad to see these graves left like that.
Thank goodness for people like Lodger who are doing a great job documenting what's left.
Jules
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Well Done, Lodger, that takes real dedication.
Hope you were not too badly hurt during your expedition. You have been kind enough in the past to give me information of the Graveyard at Cambusnethan.
Keep up your great work :
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:)Hi Iam very new here so be patient, Iam searching for my family McPhail Is this the right place for me please? I am particulary interested in 1860 to 1900 inscriptions. Thankyou.
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Hi whifflet
Welcome to RootsChat :) Everyone here is very kind and helpful so be encouraged!
If you are looking in particular for any possible burial details, then this is the post that you should use (I am assuming you are confident that this would be the relevant burial ground).
If you need help of a more general nature on this family or other points, then best to start your own thread with your query so that more people will see it and be able to help.
Monica :)
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Welcome Whifflet. We all started out just like you and I know exactly how you feel. However before you know it one thing will lead to another and you may like me, although I hope not, finish with more questions than answers. But the really good fun is the journey, just don't do what I do and scribble little notes then not be able to decipher them.
Enjoy.
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Hi Whifflet, I can't find any McPhail inscriptions in either of the Cambusnethan old burial grounds.
Can you post some other details please? The surname on its own is not much use, try giving more first names, the maiden surnames of the McPhail wives and rough time periods. Towns, districts and/or parishes will also be of use.
We will all do our best to help.
Lodger.
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Lodger
Do you have any records for YETT/YETTS/YEATS?
Possibly a Robert (blacksmith)
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This is the only thing I have, it's from Kirkhill. No burial records for this family that I could find.
"Gowkthrapple" is a good lead as to where they lived in the parish, hope it helps you.
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Thanks Lodger, must be a brother
Any mention of Agnes Law?
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She's not mentioned in anything I have for Kirkhill but I don't have pictures of all the surviving stones and the burial records are non existant until the late 19th century.
Who was she? Is Law her maiden name? Do you know her parents names?
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Hi, Thankyou for your reply. I just gave the name McPhail, silly me there must be thousands!! sorry. Henry and Agnes McPhail (nee Lafferty) Also a relative Jane Blair Henry Died 1878 Agnes his wife Died December 1862 (her two little children William and Henry died one in november 1865 and the other December the three died of Typhoid poor souls!) Jane died I believe 1886. They came over from Ireland 1850's Hope this helps Thankyou June
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They are all buried in the municipal cemetery at Cambusnethan village, (not in Kirkhill, the burial ground that this thread is concerned with).
Here's what I found, please remember that the Victorian records have gaps, I couldn't find Jane Blair for example, she must have been buried in a paupers grave and the paupers records for that year have not survived.
All the following dates are of burial.
HENRY McPHAIL, Wishaw, aged 8 years.
Parents - Henry McPhail & Agnes Lafferty.
Buried in common ground (pauper's grave) 22nd November 1862.
WILLIAM McPHAIL, Wishaw, aged 3 years.
Parents - Henry McPhail & Agnes Lafferty.
Buried in common ground on 3rd December 1862.
AGNES McPHAIL, housewife, Wishaw, aged 32 years, married.
Parents - William Lafferty & Margaret Blair.
Buried in common ground on 17th December 1862.
Although Agnes and her 2 sons are in common ground, remarkably they are all three in the same grave, number 138. The gravedigger must have gone out of his way to do this.
To continue -
HENRY McPHAIL, labourer, Wishaw, aged 57 years, widower.
Parents - Archibald McPhail & Margaret Crichton.
Buried in common ground on 30th March 1878.
ARCHIBALD McPHAIL, tailor, Wishaw, aged 33 years, married.
Parents - Henry McPhail & Nancy Lafferty.
Buried in private plot E55 on 7th August 1896.
In plot E56 are the following - (my guess is a double plot)
ISABELLA W. McPHAIL, wishaw, aged 1 year.
Parents - Matthew McPhail & Marion Ballantyne.
Buried in plot E56 on 28th April 1900.
MARION McPHAIL, Wishaw, aged 2 years.
Parents - George McPhail & Isabella Wyper.
Buried in plot E56 on 25th November 1893.
Also,
STILLBORN FEMALE McPHAIL, Wishaw.
Parents - Henry McPhail & Isabella Fleming.
Buried in common ground on 22nd October 1906.
Hope this leads you somewhere!
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:) Thankyou very much for your speedy reply, you are a star! I am coming up to Motherwell in April, and thought I could visit these if possible, I will find out where it is not too familiar with Cambusnethan. Poor Jane Blair, Iam so sad her grave can not be found, my heart goes out to her, she lived in the same address as Henry and Agnes when all this trauma was going on, nurse her other remaining nephews (George, my ancester and Archibald, who is in your list as dying at 33years old) until she was 60ish in 1886, in the family house in Caledonian Road, I owe her a lot and would not be here if she hadnt been so dedicated to the family! :( :( So a paupers grave seems not right as Archibald and George would have surely looked after her?? Anyway, I also have Muirhead Leggat etc... spouses of the McPhail family to search so will continue I am so grateful for the rootschat site you are all very dedicated and we are glad you are there. June PS Re: Henry and Agnes marriage in Ireland Parish of Banagher is the next line of search have proof of the date of marriage its just getting the transcript for more info about their parents so I have lots to do.
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Putting Leggate & Muirhead into the search only brings up one more entry -
STILLBORN MALE McPHAIL, Wishaw.
Parents - Archibald McPhail & jeannie Leggate.
Buried in plot C73 on 13th October 1890.
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HI, Archibald ( Henry and Agnes son born 1862) married Jeannie Leggate yes thats right. Muirhead comes in as the husband of Jane McPhail (Henry and Agnes daughter) She died 1927 in Wishaw her son William I believe lived in England as he signed her death certificate, her husband died before her. She was born 1856! She was 70 when she died and considering she was in the house where there was Typhoid well she must have been strong. Can you enlighten me as to Jane Blair, you think she is buried in the Cambusnethan Village but no record or no grave? I am looking forward to seeing these graves is it quite easy to get to them in Cambusnethan or are they overgrown? Thankyou for your trouble in searching. June
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If you visit Cambusnethan cemetery during normal working hours the gravediggers will take you to the plots (E55 & 56 and C73) where there may or may not be headstones. It is not overgrown but it is a large cemetery, so be sure to go there during working hours.
They will not be able to show you individual paupers graves but may (but probably not) be able to show you the general area.
As for Jane Blair, if she died in Cambusnethan parish she is probably buried in the cemetery but, with the common ground burials for that year being unavailable there isn't much you can do I'm afraid.
Remember to take the plot references with you!
This is what the old part of the cemetery looks like, I think this is section C.
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I will thankyou, I thank you for the picture too. I will get in touch when I return and let you know the outcome.
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Hi Thankyou for your help on my searches I have the information I need.
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Hello and thank you for posting this listing, which turned up as I searched for my Netherton families of Russell, McAlpine, and Brownlie. I would be interested to hear from others researching these families, and also to see the photos of the monuments.
JudyR
Bogart, Georgia, USA
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I have photographs of the following headstones from the ancient churchyard of Cambusnethan. This was the site of the original, pre-reformation parish church of Cambusnethan. The church was abandoned about 1647 and re-located to Greenhead. (That church now lies in ruins).
All that's left here is the graveyard and it is in the most deplorable condition. The vandals have wrecked it beyond recognition. Beautiful old medieval stones, a huge mausoleum belonging to Lord and Lady Belhaven, the burial vaults of the Steuarts of Coltness and the Lockharts of Castlehill, have all either been demolished or vandalised. The biggest culprit was the former local authority - the Burgh of Motherwell & Wishaw back in the 1960s. A bulldozer was sent down to clear away about a quarter of the stones in order that an Orange parade could march to the Covenanter's grave. (This has now disappeared).
Monumental Inscriptions were transcribed by a Mr Brownlee about 1974, they have never been published but a copy is with the Scottish Genealogy Society in Edinburgh. Other people may have made transcriptions but the 1974 ones will be way more accurate as the vandals hadn't honed their skills so well then.
To reach this burial ground is not easy! It is at the very end of Kirkhill Road in Netherton and can only be accessed on foot, down a steep hill. I had to climb over a waist-high gate, so be warned.
Anyone who wants a photograph please send your email address by PM.
ADDISON of Banffshire.
BELL & GOURLIE.
BINNIE & SOMMERVILLE.
BROWNLEE & FRENCH.
BROWNLIE & FERGUSON.
BROWNLIE & NEILSON.
BROWNLIE & NISBET.
BROWNLIE & RUSSELL.
DOBIE, JOHNSTON, INGLIS, MURRAY & WHARRIE.
FORREST. Freemason.
GILCHRIST & GOURLIE.
GOURLIE & PRENTICE.
GRAY.
HAMILTON & ADDIE.
HAMILTON & McALPINE.
HAMILTON, BARRIE, FRAME & THOMSON.
INGLIS & DUNCAN.
KENNEDY & SMELLIE.
LAWRIE & TROTTER.
LEGGATE, CAMERON, CRANSTON & MACKIE.
LIVINGSTON & McGRIGOR.
LOTHIAN, LANG & PEARSTON.
LOTHIAN & VEITCH.
LOUDON.
LOUDON & THOMSON.
MARSHALL & SCOTT.
MARSHALL & SOMMERVILLE.
McKINNON, SMITH & SMELLIE.
MONRO, GIBSON & ALEXANDER.
NELSON, STODDART & MIDDLETON.
NICOL & BROWNLEE.
NIVEN.
PATERSON & JACKSON.
PEARSON.
REID & PATERSON.
REID & TORRANCE.
ROBERTSON & STEEL.
SOMMERVILLE, RUSSELL & BAILEY.
WATT, Margaret, servant to Lord & Lady Belhaven.
WILLIAMSON.
WILLIAMSON & BURN.
YEATS of Gowkthrapple.
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Hi Judy, could you epand a little with names and dates? Brownlie/ee is the most popular name in the old churchyard and Russell isn't too far behind. So it would help to give wives maiden surnames and any dates that you have.
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Hello and thank you very much for your response. I will get together a short listing of names and dates to send. I think that the most distant would be family of John Russell (b 1766) and his wife Margaret McAlpine (b 1780). Most of their children are said to have been born in Netherton. Some emigrated to Canada and one grandchild (my ancestor George Russell b 1848) to the USA.
Regards, JudyR
Hi Judy, could you epand a little with names and dates? Brownlie/ee is the most popular name in the old churchyard and Russell isn't too far behind. So it would help to give wives maiden surnames and any dates that you have.
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having been to the heritage centre i have found out that ancestors of mine were buried at kirkhill burial ground. we tried and failed to find this yesterday, driving down kirkhill road as far as we could and came to what appeared to be two private houses with locked,fenced gates. we then tried carbarns road as i thought the burial ground was fairly near the sewage works? but again no luck. have looked on google maps too but perhaps someone could give me a hint as to how best to approach the area. thanks in advance
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Quote from Lodger
To reach this burial ground is not easy! It is at the very end of Kirkhill Road in Netherton and can only be accessed on foot, down a steep hill. I had to climb over a waist-high gate, so be warned
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hello there thanks for your fast response, i had noticed the post your metion so maybe just as well i didnt find it as had no wellies or change of clothes with me yesterday! i was just unsure where exactly it is possible to access the waist high gate mentioned by lodger as i could only see two private houses. cheers
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/41583834@N03/sets/72157626506445311/
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Looking at satellite photos it looks like you take the track to the right of the 2 houses and follow it down a tree lined track
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You have to follow the road all the way down, the 2 houses you mention are Kirkhill Orchard (a modern-ish bungalow type) and then Kirkhill House (a Victorian villa). The road turns to the right and carries on down the down the hill. (I think, from memory, the 5-bar gate is at the bottom).
Check this link, the burial ground is just to the right of the large pond, on the north side of the river, it's in the big clump of trees. The water purification plant is to the right of the burial ground.
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.7640464,-3.9629581,1034m/data=!3m1!1e3
Be warned, it is not an easy trip!
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thank you so much for that, will have a go the next dry weekend when i'm not at work. i really appreciate your precise directions, i could see me ending up in the clyde without them! cheers lodger
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many thanks to you as well sancti, appreciate your replies
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Hi Lodger
I'm wondering if the PATERSON JACKSON gravestone is that of Margaret Paterson and Andrew Jackson.
Many thanks.
Cheers,
Rodeo
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Hi Rodeo, no luck I'm afraid, its for John Paterson & Margaret Jackson.
Did your Andrew Jackson have a son John who was married to Jane Keenan?
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Many thanks, Lodger.
That John Jackson/Jane Keenan marriage doesn't ring a bell but I'll have a look at my Jackson records and get back to you.
Cheers,
Rodeo
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Hi Lodger
Unfortunately, I can't find a Jackson/Keenan marriage in my Jackson documentation. Who were the parents of your John Jackson?
Cheers,
Rodeo
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Rodeo,
I just happened to notice a burial in the Cambusnethan records for a child by the name of Robert Jackson, parents John Jackson & Jane Keenan. I thought perhaps with the name Robert, he may have been from your Jacksons.
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Thanks for that, Lodger, but he doesn't appear to be one of my Jacksons.
Cheers,
Rodeo
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this is for lodger and sancti... just to let you know that my son and i braved the elements and followed the very precise directions for kirkhill burial ground with great success. thanks to your warning, the walk was not quite as bad as expected for me. and the best bit was that one of the few legible headstones was the very one i was looking for. so grateful for all your help, having lived in wishaw till i was 30 i cant believe i didnt know about this graveyard below. thank you
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That's good news Rose! so happy that you found the stone you were looking for!
If you send the names I can check the Cambusnethan records for more of the family.
Lodger
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While out on a walk with my dogs last year...we happend to see this place in the distance....
Wondering what it was, i decided to tryand reach it...
Lots of knee deep mud and cows later...i finally made it!
I cannott believe that such a place of historical importance has been left to vandals to destory!!
What is wrong with our country!
This should be a protected site...however, a good few more years...this place will be no more!
Sickening
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More than sad isn't it :-\ Lodger's description at the very beginning of this thread...
To reach this burial ground is not easy! It is at the very end of Kirkhill Road in Netherton and can only be accessed on foot, down a steep hill. I had to climb over a waist-high gate, so be warned.
flickr albulms here too www.flickr.com/photos/41583834@N03/sets/72157626506445311/
Monica
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15EXQhDYWRg
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Could someone please verify this youtube is legit and not some sort of clickable scam? As a PC user, I am wary! :D
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its fine Judy im a youtube partner and i go round old buildings and graveyards videoing and taking pictures of them the link is fine its one of mine was at the graveyard the other day. then i seen this site and thought yous would like to see the place thx
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Hello
Would it be possible to get a copy of the REID & TORRANCE headstone. Apparently, as a new member to the list I cannot do this through PM ...just yet.
Thanks
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This isn't an easy one as I don't have a record of the inscription, sorry. I've changed the picture into sepia as it makes it a little easier to decipher. It looks as though the stone was erected by William Reid to the memory of his parents, John Reid and Helen Torrance. Also to their daughter Helen who died at Edinburgh 5th April 18(*)4 aged 5(3) years.
That's the best I can do.
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Hello again Lodger
Thanks once again. This one also turns out not to be connected. But I have since found your explanation of your indexing system, ie MALE & FEMALE. And on this occasion I had it in reverse.
Regards
JPF
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I'm interested in the BELL & GOURLIE headstone
ScotFamTed
Long shot, but would this include Donald and Duncan Bell, both killed in the 1849 explosion at Wishaw?
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No luck I'm afraid. Bell is a fairly uncommon name in Cambusnethan parish. If you can give some more details, parents names for example, I can check the records I have.
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@Lodger, I take it Cambusnethan is pronounced minus the bus?
Skoosh.
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The local way of pronouncing it is Cam'nethan but I always assumed that the proper way was was to include the "bus".
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I'm thinkin Camslang here! ;D
Skoosh.
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Of the two brothers, Donald was the elder, and born outside Lanarkshire, whereas Duncan was within.
I have tried looking at both births, but can't find a pair of parents in common.
The website of accidents makes grim reading, but the newspaper account of the Wishaw explosion states they are natives of Islay. Before I investigate that further I will be travelling through the area next weekend, and have allocated a day to give myself more background.
I will be trying to build up my knowledge of 'poor relief' Duncan's widow Mary was refused because she was not on tjhe paraochial roll. althouigh she was a pauper with 4 kids under 10, and another on the way.
It may be due to a change in the law, or the disruoption on the church, or simply that she had moved from Dalserf. If I find out more I'll post it.
I can understand that there are no graves, but I expected a memorial.
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I will be trying to build up my knowledge of 'poor relief' Duncan's widow Mary was refused because she was not on tjhe paraochial roll. althouigh she was a pauper with 4 kids under 10, and another on the way.
It may be due to a change in the law, or the disruoption on the church, or simply that she had moved from Dalserf.
In 1849, it has nothing to do with the kirk or the disruption thereof, because from 1845 responsibility for looking after the poor was the Parochial Board's job, no longer the kirk session's.
What normally happened was that anyone who was in dire straits applied to the parochial board of the parish they were living in. If they had 'settlement' in that parish, it was up to that parochial board to deal with them appropriately.
However if they did not have 'settlement', the parochial board would do its utmost to find out where the person's settlement was, and get that other parochial board to meet the cost of dealing with them. This is why the surviving parochial board records go into so much detail about where people were born, had lived and for how long.
You acquired 'settlement' in various ways. One was by being born in the parish. Children could be held to have 'settlement' in the parish where their father was born. A married woman acquired 'settlement' in her husband's parish of 'settlement'. Or you could acquire 'settlement' by living continuously for five years in the parish.
So if Duncan's widow and children were born in Dalserf, Cambusnethan Parochial Board would instruct their Inspector of Poor to write to Dalserf and basically say, "We have one of your paupers here. We have paid her some money to tide her over pending your decision what to do with her. Please reimburse us, and tell us how to dispose of her case". Dalserf would then look at the case and decide what to do - they might give her a small amount of money each week, or they might offer her a place in the poorhouse - and if they did and she refused the offer of the poorhouse, she would not be admitted to the Register of Poor, or she would be struck off it if she had previously been admitted to it.
Saying that she could not have relief because she was not on the parochial roll sounds a bit like putting the cart before the horse - it was the parochial board that decided who was and who was not on the parochial roll (if by this they mean the Register of Poor).
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[ Thanks - to me this kind of background information is often more interesting than just tracing your ancestry back ]
Mary had been refused relief by Cambusnethan
The case then went to the Board of Supervision [ covering several parishes ]
The Board of Supervision was established under the 1845 Poor Law Act. One of its tasks was to hear appeals by paupers against inadequate poor relief granted by Parochial Boards. These appeals were recorded in the Board of Supervision minutes
Their minute of 3rd Jan 1849 states
.....the board declined to interfere the applicant not being in receipt of parochial relief
Another reason given for refusal ( not in this case ) is that the applicant is in the poorhouse
I would like to think that Mary had sufficient spunk to extricate herself from her situation by 1, being sufficiently young and able-bodied, and so escape the poorhouse, 2. getting her children into work, and 3. finding a new husband in 1857 - another coal miner !
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Still seems an odd way to go about it - parochial board refuses her relief, so she appeals to the supervisory board, who decline to get involved because she has been refused relief - yet that is the very decision she is appealing against?
I have (and have actually read) a book titled A History of the Scotch Poor Law, by Sir George Nicholls, 1856. The same gentleman also wrote A History of the English Poor Law (1898) and A History of the Irish Poor Law (1856).
He writes, "The chief characteristic of Scottish Poor Law administration, as contrasted with that of England, is the pertinacity with which all claim to relief of behalf of the able-bodied poor has been resisted". So I would not be surprised by a decision to refuse relief to Mary for herself alone. But I am surprised that relief was refused to four children under the age of 10. Children of 8 or 10 might have been expected to work, but younger ones would be regarded as disabled (i.e. unable to earn a living) by youth.
I have now looked at a transcription of the 1851 census and I see that Mary is described as a pauper (which normally implies being on the Register of Poor) and that the two eldest girls were both employed as tambourers. Also that only the eldest child was born in Dalserf, the other five being born in Cambusnethan, so it appears that Mary and the eldest child had been living in Cambusnethan for at least nine years. I am at a loss to understand how Cambusnethan could have refused relief for them, and especially for the ones born in Cambusnethan, all of whom were under 8 when their father was killed.
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Exactly
Mary may apparenly, but wrongly have been caught by having moved
She was b 1818 in Dalserf and was married there in 1930
By 1841 she was in Cambusnethan
Her children were born there 1842 to 1850 ( i.e. after Duncan's death, and inc the last one whom she named after his dead father, Duncan )
In 1851 she is in Wishaw
So at the time of Duncan's death in 1849 and her applying for relief, she was in Cambusnethan
It was Cambusnethan who rejected her applicatiion
And on 3rd Jan 1850, her case was considered by the Board of Supervision, and rejected.
I also did wonder if applying under her maiden name, Nichol, was a good idea
BUT from North Lanarkshire today -
I have spoken to my Archive colleagues. They have searched their index to Poor Relief records but, unfortunately, could not find a match for Mary Bell/Nichol/Nicol. There are very few entries in the Poor Relief index for the years around 1850.
Thanks for your inputs
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I also did wonder if applying under her maiden name, Nichol, was a good idea
At that time period it would have been quite normal for a widow to revert to her maiden name (even today in Scots law a woman simply "adopts" her husbands name on marriage and legally she would be referred to under her maiden name and her married name added after this e.g. Mary Nichol OR Bell )
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She probably didn't "revert" to her maiden surname. It was very common and still is in rural areas today, to call a woman by her maiden name, in a familiar way, almost like the French tu and vous or the German du and sie. I have been through the poor relief claims for Cam'nethan and Dalziel on countless occasions and have noticed that the Inspectors seem to have known most of the claimants personally, as would be expected in such small parishes (as they were in the early decades of the 19th century) and my impression of the description, for example - "Peter Brown's wife ~ Ann Black" implies that Ann was seldom if ever referred to as "Mrs Brown". Even in widowhood she is called "the widow Brown ~ Ann Black".
The familiarity of the inspectors has sadly led to very little information being recorded in the early claims for these parishes. Parents names etc didn't have to be recorded as the inspector knew the details already!
Also, if Mary, in widowhood, was refused relief by Cam'nethan, it implies that neither she nor her late husband had the qualification necessary to be relieved by that parish. I think (someone will tell me otherwise I'm sure) that she would have been able to claim on her husband's residency in that parish if he had lived there for, I think, seven years. If residency could not be claimed the onus was on the claimant to provide proof of parish of origin for either herself or her late husband.
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Quite, we will never know. But being family, I will make own note on our family tree that Mary held her head high, and 8 years later,at the age of 39, remarried and started a second family ( Beattie ) in Cambusnethan. Well done, granny's granny. And Duncan, the name Bell was remembered in the family, and was the middle name of my aunt.
And thanks last weekend to the helpful staff in Wishaw library and Motherwell heritage centre.
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Further - from another site -
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Scotland/
Click on Poor Laws / Scotland / scroll down to 1845 poor law act - "able-bodied were exempt"
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A wee bitty more, if of interest to anyone
Mary Nicol/Bell remarried in Cambusnethan in 1857 Thomas Beattie
Thomas was born Girvan along with Jean Sarah James John and William
Their father was James Beattie
Their mother was Esther McChesney who was b Ireland abt 1791
Mary already had a family of six, but went on to have two more children with her second husband
They were Thomas and James Beattie
Mary's first family of Bells appear to be scattered to the winds, other than her last child, Duncan jnr, who remained in Cambusnethan.
The one who became my great-granny, Catherine, pops up in Carnwath, but was back in Cambusbunethan to marry John Hutcheson in 1869
The story then moves on to Carluke
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There is a burial record for Thomas in Cambusnethan Cemetery.
THOMAS BEATIE. Occupation - barber. (Pauper).
Died Motherwell Poorhouse.
Parents - James Beatie & Esther McChesney.
interred in common ground on 13th January 1879.
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Thanks for that. When he married in 1857 he was a coal miner. Sounds as though he was injured.
Last week was the first time I had ever set foot in Wishaw. I travel N-S-N at least one a year. Next time I shall make a point of stopping at the cemetery
I'm not really expecting an answer - What happened to Mary (Nicol/Bell/Beattie) ?
A little story - I worked in a factory making electric cable. We made miles of cable for the NCB - They had their own spec - NCB295 - which often involved extra armouring. Of course the orders gradually dried up in the 1990s
A few years later we started to get orders from China - to spec NCB295.
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Sorry, for the burial details of Thomas Beatie, I should have included his age and marital status.
Aged 63 years. Married.
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Ta again, if its really important to anyone, there were two Thomas Beatie/Beatties, both b Girvan -1813 and 1819. Lodger's date gives an approx. birth date in between. But the 1813 model has mother Esther, which clinches it for him.
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Hamilton/McAlpine sounds familiar to me, if you please.
Very grateful, Thank you.
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This should be easy enough to read.
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I was amazed to find that in 1851 there were 305 tambourers in Cambusnethan,( but I'm only a man ). The youngest was 7. One of mine was one of the few 9-y-olds.
And 1859 map of Wishaw / Cambusnethan area on https://maps.nls.uk/view/74427707
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Answering my own question -
Mary Nicol/Bell/Beattie went to U.S. In their 1880 census she was 60 in Pennsylvania living with one of her Beattie sons, James 19 now spelt Beatty, a coal miner.
The other Beattie son Thomas 22 now spelt Beaty, also a miner, was in the same state, married in US to Ella 19, and they have a baby daughter Mary 0.
When they emigrated I can't find, but if Lodger is correct about old Thomas Beattie having died in 1879, they ( including Thomas ! ) appear to have moved pretty fast.
Already in Pennsylvania was one of Mary's Bell children, Margaret, who had married Robert McDill ( Middle/Medill ) before she emigrated in 1866 along with their young family.
Also in that party was her brother Duncan Bell who had been born after his father Duncan was killed in the Wishaw mine. And Duncan jnr became ......a miner.
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Back to Mary Nicol / Bell / Beattie - What I reckon happened was that her husband Thomas Beattie died in 1879, Mary crossed the Atlantic in May 1880, arriving on SS Ethiopia on 11th May in time to be reunited with one of her Beattie sons in time to be censused with him in June 1880. She eventually died in 1900 in La Salle, Illinois. The best help that I had was from the married name of her daughter Margaret. Margaret married Thomas McDill in Scotland, crossed the Atlantic as 'Middle' and appeared in US as 'Medill', and this family name has been used in US since then in that branch.
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OR - Mary crossed the Atlantic on SS State of Nevada, arriving 4 Sep 1879. This followed the death of her 2nd husband Thomas Beattie on 4 Jan 1879. On this ship's list this Mary is "Mrs Nichol" or it might be "Nichols"
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Please don't reply here, send me an email as below.
I recently published, with the original author's kind permission, the 1972 Brownlie transcription of the Old Cambusnethan Kirkyard Monumental transcriptions and included what i could find of additional transcriptions and lists of tombstones. It has name and place indices for 250 names. The work will be available this summer online at the Allen County Public Library, at familysearch.org, and at various libraries and family history centers. In the meantime, for those of you who are researching the area currently I would be glad to send the pdf, 88 pages.
please don't reply here. send an email to Removed
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Thanks for the info. Look forward to hearing from folks via PM
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I mentioned previously that I was compiliing all the information in previous surveys of the monuments in the Old Cambusnethan Kirkyard near St. Michael's and Carbarns Road in Wishaw. That compilation is now online at the Genealogical Collection at the Allen County Public Library, Ft Wayne, Indiana, USA. I would be very glad if this helps someone's research and also glad for additions and corrections. Possibly there are some DCs from 1855 until the New Kirkyard came into use. I myself have one page from Scotlandspeople that has notations for different interments...one in each Kirkyard.
Here is the Link to the compilation: https://www.genealogycenter.info/search_kirkhillburial.php
Judith R
Brookhaven, Georgia, USA
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Thank you JudyR,
It's a great resource as all the info. has been combined, in one place & very helpful to researchers.
Annie
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You are welcome! hope this helps.
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Trying to locate the graves of the Nisbet family, many I know from my grandmother are buried in the graveyard at Cambusnethan (they lived in Newmains).
I have the location of Adam Nisbet d. 1879 and Margaret Watson d 1869, lair Low public 030. (my gtgtgt grandparents)
Also Peter Nisbet d 1873 and Elizabeth Aikenhead Nisbet d1889, Lair Old graveyard OGY B07-01. (my gtgt grandparents)
I know there are many more Nisbet's buried there.
Any information or help locating these graves gratefully received.
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I know there are many more Nisbet's buried there.
Any information or help locating these graves gratefully received.
Sorry I don't have any burial info...
However, I checked out deaths on SP & discovered I have one of your family on the same death page as one of my own family (previously purchased)...
Helen Howden, Widow of John Howden, Engine Keeper, died 11 Mar 1881 at 31 Brown Street, Newmains (Cambusnethan), aged 36 yrs.
Parents - Peter Nisbet, Furnace Keeper (Deceased) & Elizabeth Nisbet, M.S. Aitkenhead (no mention of her being deceased).
Informant - James Nisbet (Brother)
NISBET HELEN 36 - AITKENHEAD (mms) - 1881 - 628 / 75 CAMBUSNETHAN
Have you done a run through on the death indexes on SP for any of your family?
Names & approx. yrs can be very helpful as opposed to searching blind.
The updated site lists MMS for which I found 11 although they may not all be yours.
Annie
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Hello Rosinish,
Thank you for your reply.
Helen Howden nee Nisbet was my gt grandfather's sister.
I had a reply from Lodger and she is buried at Cambusnethan.
Thank you
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Duplicate message
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=530309.msg7419792#msg7419792
Please reply on that thread to avoid duplication.
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Duplicate message
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=530309.msg7419792#msg7419792
Please reply on that thread to avoid duplication.
Forfarian...
I just clicked on the above link which brings me back to this page???
Annie
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Sorry, got the wires crossed.
This is the parallel thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=566572.msg7419795#msg7419795
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Hello Forfarian, I am new to this and the website isn't the easiest to navigate. So, the rules are don't post the same question on two different threads....message understood.
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Sort of. But sometimes you may not be sure which county you need to look in, or your research may need you to shift your focus from one county to another.
The problem is that if there are duplicate threads some people may set to work on one thread while others set to work on the other, and before you know it you have a confusing jumble of partly duplicated information, and people can get a bit fed up if they spend time answering one thread only to find that someone else has spent time looking up the same answers and posted them to the other.
The best way to do it is to cross-reference the threads, ask for all replies to go to one of them and lock the other.