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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: Portonian on Tuesday 03 May 11 12:53 BST (UK)
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Hi, I can't seem to get credits on Scotlands People (nothing wrong with my credit card!) and I have a problem with an ancestor William Ross b: 20 March or 22 April 1838 1838 who married a Helen Greig (details I am trying to find) who had a son William Ross b: 21 Dec 1858.
The only Helen Greig I can find by various searches was born c 1820 and she married a different William Ross from what I can establish. Her husband was issue of David Ross and Margaret Jones m 29 Jan 1814 Tranent according to IGI.
My William Ross is issue of William Ross and Joan Hogg. He would have married c 1856-1858. It is possible that it was not in East Lothian but I think this unlikely.
This info actually came from a "professional genealogist whom I engaged over a year ago and who was less than credible given it took her three months to supply any info and all I got was a pedigree tree and no supporting documentation.
So, can anyone help me? Did Helen Greig b 1920 possibly marry twice and to two William Ross's?
Can't find death cert for her William.
I have found an 1861 census return for William Ross and Helen Ross but this is clearly for the other couple not mine.
Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.....I have searched Ancestry and MyHeritage and IGI without success.
Scotskiwi Auckland New Zealand
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Hi Portonian
Welcome to Rootschat! ;D
Which is the information supplied to you by the researcher - and which is the information you started with, which you know to be true for your ancestor?
Cheers
AMBLY
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The only information supplied was William Ross b 22 April 1838 m Helen Greig b 1838 on 16 September 1853. No supporting documentation.
The pedigree showed his parents as simply Wm Ross and Joan Hogg. I have done some research on them and I believe that they are William Ross b: 13 April 1814 Pencaitland d 8 April 1889 Ormiston and Joan Hogg b: 18 July 1815 Tranent d: 2 June 1904 Ormiston.
His issue was advised as William Ross born 1858 married 30 Dec 1881 Jane Marshall b: 1859.
I have previously secured copies of certificates proving that their issue, Wm Ross b: 30 Dec 1881 is my grandfather and is correct.
The hiccup seems to be the Helen Greig marriage. of course, I also have to doubt the Issue of Wm Ross from William Ross and Joan Hogg.
If I could access Scotlands People site I would be able to validate by getting documentation on Helen Greig and William Ross b 1858.
Hope this helps.
Scotskiwi
PS I have a jpg of the pedigree chart I was supplied for my money!
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Hi again
His issue was advised as William Ross born 1858 married 30 Dec 1881 Jane Marshall b: 1859.
I have previously secured copies of certificates proving that their issue, Wm Ross b: 30 Dec 1881 is my grandfather and is correct.
Just to clarify - as you have the marriage date of the parents and the birthdate of their son, both as 30 Dec 1881 ??
On the documantation that you have for your Grandfather, does anything state an occupation for his father? Also, where was Grandfather born?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Sorry, yes I also forgot to mention that date anomaly!
Clear that "researcher" threw this together.
Grandfather actually born 7 September 1886 according to certs I have since obtained. His father was listed as Fisherman. Couple Docs attached.
Only small sections of certificates should be attached for help with deciphering or clarification :)
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Hi Portonian,
I found the marriage on "FreeReg" of William Ross and Helen Greig on the Tranent Parish Church Records.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lo/ for FreeReg,
remember to select "East Lothian" on County box.
William Ross was a Cockenzie Fisherman and Helen's father was William Greig was a labourer from Cockenzie.
Tom
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That was an excellent find Tom :)
Because the census throw up two William ROSS b abt 1882, son of William & Jane and another b abt 1887 son of William & Jessie - I just want to establish:
When your grandad William ROSS got married to your grandmother - did their marriage lines: state his parents to be William ROSS & Jane MARSHALL?
And if so, when William ROSS snr married Jane MARSHALL, did his marriage lines state his parents to be William ROSS & Helen GRIEG?
Someone has done research on the ROSS/HOGG line here - descendant focus is on their son George.
http://www.duncangroup.com/dunc/duncan/91.htm
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi again,
The baptism on 22 Apr 1838 of William Ross b 20 Mar 1838 Tranent Parish Church entry 3673.
Parents were William Ross and Joan Hogg, William stayed in Tranent and was a Coalier (sic)
The baptism on 10 Sep 1821 of William Ross b 21 Aug 1821 Tranent Parish Church entry 16780, Parents were David Ross and Margaret Jonnes (sic). Notes added were - Name of child crossed out and "William" written above. Birth Date looks like "15" overwritten with "21"
* removed 1881 census as incorrect
Tom
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Apologies re full certifcates being posted. My error.
Re AMbly
My grandfathers birth certificate of 1886 says father is William Ross and mother Jane Ross previously MARSHALL. Informant was an Agnes MARSHALL (Aunt) who was thus a sister of Jane Ross (ne Marshall).
His Marriage Certificate also validates the maiden name of mother as MARSHALL.
Marriage Certificate of William Ross b 1858 (Age 23) and Jane Marshall b 1859 (age 22) records father as William Ross Fisherman and Mother Helen Ross (ne Greig). And her parents as John Marshall deceased Fisherman and mother Mary Marshall (ne Coull).
Hope this clarifies.
Scotskiwi
Bill
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Hi Tidybooks
I have a copy of the Parish record of marriage between a Helen Greig and William Ross on the 16th September 1853 but I am told that this is not My great great grandfather nor my Great great grandmother by another researcher. The William who married Helen Greig is the Wm Ross born 21 August 1821.
Extract of record attached.
I have assumed that I am looking for a Helen Greig born circa 1838 and assumed from East Lothian.
Perhaps I am wrong in this assumption.
Scotskiwi
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Many thanks to all contributing.
I must admit it is doing my head in and I am very methodical and non plussed usually!
I have a ton of info regrading the line of Joan Hogg and William Ross, James Ross and Agnes Stocks and their ancestry including Joanna Crookston who's statue is in Tranent. That line is relatively easily researched as there are many researchers who have worked it.
I just seem to keep hitting dead ends. Guess it comes with the territory.
Appreciate the assistance.
I attach extract of my Great grandfathers marriage cert to Jane Marshall where his mothers name is cited as Helen Greig. I hope this is ok with board moderator.
Scotskiwi.
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And Extract of my grandfathers birth citing Jane Marshall as his mother, Wm Ross father.
Also birth of who I understand to be my grandfathers father, Wm Ross b : 21 Dec 1858 mother Helen Greig and Wm Ross
As I see it, Wm Ross b 7 sep 1886 was issue of Wm Ross b 21 dec 1858 and Jane Marshall b: 29 July 1859 with date of marriage 30 dec 1886.
I nned find detah certs of both my grandfather and great grandfather to resolve this matter I believe but have little info to go on re year of death or place. As I said, can't get into Scotlands People and my searches to date have been fruitless.
Scotskiwi
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For info
I have also done previous research on Helen Greig births in all of Scotland between 1820 and 1842 and only two have arisen in east Lothian .
HG born 6 Feb 1820 Tranent issue of Wm Greig and Isabel Donaldson
HG born 01 September 1822 Pencaitland issue of Hugh Greig and Euphemia Henderson
I can find no record of any marriage c 1855-58. between a William Ross b c1838 and Helen Greig which could give issue to great grandfather Wm Ross b: 21 dec 1858.
Scotskiwi
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I have just been sent this by a fellow family member. It is an extract of death certificate of William Ross born 1858, my great grandfather.
It shows his wife to be Jane Marshall and his mother to have been Helen Greig deceased and father William Ross deceased.
I believe this resolves status of line back to William and Helen but I still have the fundamental problem of who is this Helen Greig?
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Hi Portonian,
I am interested in this as surnames are in my family tree but not the same people except John Coull and Christian Anderson. So all these Greigs, Marshalls, Donaldsons, Coulls, all make sense to me. I was raised in Cockenzie and Port Seton so familiar with 14 East Lorimer Place also. Here is what I have found.
Dwelling: High St 1881 Census Place: Tranent, Haddington, Scotland
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William ROSS M 58 M Cockenzie - Head - Fisherman - born 21 Aug 1821
Ellen ROSS M 61 F Cockenzie – Wife – Helen Greig born 21 Jan 1820
Wm. ROSS U 22 M Cockenzie – Son – Fisherman born 21 Dec 1858
Margaret ROSS U 20 F Cockenzie – Daughter born 14 Dec 1860
William and Helen married 16 Sep 1853, so William 32yo and Helen 32yo at marriage.
Children of William Ross and Helen Greig
HELEN ROSS - Female Birth: 19 JAN 1856 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
DAVID ROSS - Male Birth: 29 MAY 1857 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
WILLIAM ROSS - Male Birth: 21 DEC 1858 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
MARGARET ROSS - Female Birth: 14 DEC 1860 Tranent, East Lothian, Scotland
By Scottish naming pattern, William Ross parents are David Ross and Margaret Jones
So Helen’s parents will be William Greig and Helen ?. Not this time.
Helen Greig’s parents were William Greig and Isabel Donaldson
Helen born 21 Jan 1820 christened 06 Feb 1820 Tranent Parish Church. Father was a Salter at this time. Parish church reference 16780
Tom
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Hi
On the BDM documentation you have, which you know is correct:
Your William ROSS b 1886 is the son of William ROSS, b abt 1858, a Cockenzie Fisherman and his wife, Jane (Jessie) MARSHALL. William ROSS (the father) b abt 1858 is himself the son of William ROSS & his wife Helen GREIG.
Census clearly show the couple, William & Helen ROSS - 1861 through to 1901 in Cockenzie. There can be little doubt this is your couple. There are no other contenders so likely to be the family of your William b 1858. Their ages are consistent with William born abt 1823 Tranent and Helen b abt 1821 Tranent - she being a year or two older than he. He is a Cockenzie Fisherman throughout. In 1851 prior to his marriage, he is living on his own in Cockenzie. In 1881, their son William age 22 is in their household, some months before his own December marriage to Jessie MARSHALL.
On the other hand the William ROSS/Joan HOGG line are Colliers - not Fishermen. In 1851 - their son William b abt 1838 is at age 13 already a Coal Miner, listed as born Gladsmuir, Haddington. I lose this William after 1851. He may have moved away?
All in all, it would appear the baptism Tom found "on 10 Sep 1821 of William Ross b 21 Aug 1821 Tranent Parish Church entry 16780, Parents were David Ross and Margaret Jonnes (sic)" is that of your William ROSS, future husband of Helen GREIG. The naming pattern evident in William & Helen's children support this.
The IGI shows issue to the couple (all extracted records)
Helen ROSS b 19 Jan 1856, Tranent - William ROSS & Helen GRIEG
David ROSS b 29 May 1857 Tranent - William ROSS & Helen GRIEG
William ROSS b 21 Dec 1858 Tranent - William ROSS & Helen GRIEG
Margaret ROSS b 14 Dec 1860 Tranent - William ROSS & Helen GRIEG
(double up with Tom's prior post - but I'll leave in here to illustrate my ' ideas' :D
These 4 children are on the Census.
I can't see any reason why the 1853 parish record of the marriage of William ROSS the Cockenzie Fisherman and Helen GREIG the daughter of William GREIG, Cockenzie labourer is not yours? If they aren't yours, then we have a) the 1853 married couple disappearing after the marriage and b) no marriage for the couple who had the children! Seems unlikely to me - what was the reason your were told the 1853 marriage is not your couple's?
For argument's sake accepting the 1853 marriage is your couple.....
.........since they married in Sep 1853, one would think there would be a child born earlier than Helen in Jan 1856. Possibly there was one around 1854 and this child died, maybe near birth but at least before 1861. Or perhaps Helen did not give birth to a live child before 1856 (miscarriage, etc) . Compound this with the fact any child born before 1855 was pre- civil registration and no such circa 1854 birth is found on the IGI for them. Many families only have their issue appear on the IGI after 1855 (often due to religion - ie: not established CofS, or because the parish records were not filmed/incomplete pre -1855).
In naming pattern:
If William ROSS (Helen's husband) was born 1821 son of David & Margaret - then William & Helen's first son should be "David" and 2nd daughter "Margaret". Their 3rd son, would normally be called "William" after William himself. However, his wife Helen, has a father named "William" too, so their 2nd son should be called "William". So far the pattern looks right.
Then we have daughter Helen born 1856 - the first born daughter we know of. Their first born daughter should be named after Helen's mother. Therefore, if daughter Helen b 1856 was their first born, then we might expect Helen ROSS nee GREIG to be the daughter of parents named William GREIG & Helen. Actually, because of the positioning of the known children - I'd have to guess if there was a child born before Helen 1856, that the first child would have had to have been:
a) a boy named David (who died) and David b 1857 was named after him.
b) a girl named Helen (who died) and Helen b 1856 was named after her.
c) a girl named Margaret (who died) and Margaret b 1860 was named after her.
The latter c) would mean Helen's mother was also named Margaret (as well as William's mother, Margaret Jones).
So in summary - in my mind, Helen GREIG's mother is likley to be named either Helen or Margaret. The Scottish naming pattern is a tool, not always adhered to - but often is & is invaluable!
Tom has found a likely mother for Helen as Isabel - so that's interesting and upsets my theorising ;D;D. Helen's death cert will be interesting to see....
Both William & Helen are still living in 1901.
SP has a death in Tranent 1903 : Helen ROSS other surname GREIG, age recorded as 81
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Tidy books
Thanks for this.
Still as clear as mud to me. Well not quite but there are some anomalies.
I think I will have to methodically go back through the line person by person and date by date exactly. I think I have enough info. I have tried SP re access again but there appears to be a wee prob with their secure payment servcic. It keeps dropping me.
The problem appears to be two William Ross's and their issue and dates if birth. Both fishermen and sons of fishermen marry two Helen Greigs.
I will review all info and post the conclusion hopefully when I establish which William Ross and which Helen Greig is who!
BTW Helen Greig (mother Isabel Donaldson) and her husband William died in 1903 within 9 months of each other. SD 722/00 0017
Scotskiwi.
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Hi Ambly
I concur with your fantastic research almost entirley.
Naming of first born sons in my line is as you say. William issue William issue William etc.
I have a note that the 1861 census lists William Ross (who married a Helen Greig) of the Hogg-Ross line as a fisherman. I agree with colliers being colliers etc but there's always self improvement LOL.
However I have to go back and double check this.
What I was told is as follows:
I never like to be the bearer of ill tidings, but I believe you have the wrong William Ross married to Helen Greig. The correct William Ross was my great, great grandfather. He was born in 1821 (Scotlands People O.P.R. Births 0722/0070 0028 Tranent) and died in 1903 (Scotlands People Statutory Deaths 0722/00 0094). This birth year is confirmed through Census records between 1851 and 1891. The one thing I don't have is a record of William and Helen's marriage. I have a completely different line of ancestors pre-dating William. If I can be of any further assistance, let me know.
This supports the William Ross (my great great grandfather advised b: 22 April 1838 by "Professional" genealogist) as not being from Hogg Ross line of course.
Guess I'll just have to start from scratch establishing the Ross line in that case.
From my perspective I have certainty that my grandfather was born 7 September 1886 and his parents were William Ross (Fisherman b 1858 d June 15 1941)) and Jane (Jessie) Marshall.
I therefore need establish his date of birth and his issue of Helen Greig and William Ross and ensure that they are the right ones. That's when it gets messy because there are two (at least, Helen Greigs and two William Ross's I am sure). Also we are dealing with PR's which don't have all the relevant dates info to ensure continuity of persons. That's where I have to go though.
I have evidence of two HG's born within two years of each other after all.
HG (of Ormiston parish) born 6 Feb 1820 Tranent issue of Wm Greig (A Salter) and Isabel Donaldson OPR 722/00 0070 0004
HG born 01 September 1822 Pencaitland issue of Hugh Greig (Ploughman)and Euphemia Henderson OPR 716/00 0030 0016
Strange that only one seems to appear in records after so I suspect that Pecaitland Helen died young or moved away because the death cert I have for Helen in 1903 states mother as Isabel Donaldson etc.
Crux to whole issue now is really what is the date of birth of Williamm Ross who married Jane Marshall and who are his parents?
The William Ross Joan Hogg or David Ross and Margaret?
There are no Margarets in my family tree as such and only one David I know of in three generations.
Extensive searching needed by me there.
The identified Helens have mothers called Isabel and Euphemia and we know whicvh one is in the records so the names thing doesn't work. I have a record of William Greig and Isabel Donaldson marriage on 8 November 1811 OPR 722/00 0060 0201 which aligns for Helen although there's nearly
10 years between her birth and marriage date. Maybe that would support an earlier sibling being named after her mother Isabel.
Whatever, I probably have plenty to go on and just need get access to SP and sort it out.
I can use Ancestry for census stuff and I know that IGI has a Family page for the Ross Hoggs Crookston Stocks line.
Many thanks for your assistance in this. I really appreciate that members have taken the time to research and give freely of their time. If anyone is coming to New Zealand let me know. Always got space for a few. I am Auckland based.
regards
Scotskiwi
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Quote - This supports the William Ross (my great great grandfather advised b: 22 April 1838 by "Professional" genealogist) as not being from Hogg Ross line of course.
The professional genealogist is wrong, the FreeReg gives the following: -
County East Lothian
Place Tranent
Church Tranent Parish Church
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth 20 Mar 1838
BaptismDate 22 Apr 1838
Forename WILLIAM
Sex M
FatherForename WILLIAM
MotherForename JOAN
FatherSurname ROSS
MotherSurname HOGG
Abode TRANENT
FatherOccupation COALIER
Notes
FileNumber 3673
I don't think the "professional" genealogist knew of FreeReg, as they would have put this confusion to bed.
Tom
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Hi Tom
Sorry, poor writing on my part.
What I meant was that Wm Ross b 22 April 1938 can't be my ancestor (gt gt grndfather) as the "professional" advised me, as it seems clear that he is actually William Ross b21 August 1921 who married Helen Greig. I worded my reply badly.
I didn't intend to suggest that Wm Ross born 20 March 1938 didn't exist, I myself had verified his existence but had failed to check that the validity of his marriage to Helen Greig.
Based on everything I have been advised it is not possible for him to be my gtgt grndtfather as was given me when I engaged the genealogist. It means I now have to redo my tree all the way back from him and I currently have over 200 ancestors in the Ross Hogg line and I lose Jackie Crookston on the way probably! A shame, I had become quite attached to her being my 5x Gt grandmother and proud of her being there.
Hopefully I might find a link between her Ross line and my new one back from William Ross b 21 Aug 1821 Tranent Parish Church entry 16780, Parents were David Ross and Margaret Jonnes (your discovery!)
No matter, lesson learned! I should have been wary when I had to chase the genealogist up several times and threaten to get my payment refunded. At the end of the day I was grateful to get anything even just a pedigree tree in effect. It just highhlights the need to be thorough.
I'm appreciative of the forum which has been very helpful. On the matter of Freereg is that also called FreeBMD?
We don't have online viewing capability with New Zealand records and I've only been dabbling for the past few months in a semi serious way. Have come across FreeBMD occassionally in working on UK family stuff but haven't actually used it myself. I thought it just provided index results which then necessitated going to the Stat Registers to find the actual viewable info. I wasn't aware that it provided extract info which will obviously help me going forward with my work on William and his ancestors.
Many thanks again and if you have any tips for me I'd sure appreciate them.
No doubt I'll be back!
Scotskiwi
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Hi Tom
sorry to be a pain.
I have been into Freereg parish website and found parish index table with all different parishes and their numbers ie 722/1 which appear as active links. When I click on any I end up getting a page saying I am being redirected and then to a page which says it doesn;t exist?
Appreciate you have better things to do than educate this fool but any guidance would be appreciated as to how to access Parish register info for East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) and do searches and find extracts.
The site doesn't seem to explain that too clearly.
Any recommendations?
Scotskiwi
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Hi Scotskiwi,
FreeBMD is similar but just deals with England & Wales, so not used it too much. It says it is a companion project but takes records from parish registers, not all counties are complete, but luckily for you, East Lothian is.
Most of your ancestors were from fisherman stock, mostly based in Cockenzie and Port Seton, as it did not have its own register, some were registered in Tranent and some in Prestonpans. Ross is still a common name in the village, I knew a few William Ross's. My own grandfather was born in Ross Land, Cockenzie, not sure who that was named after.
I know the link with Jackie Crookston was quite good, you may find when you redo the search, you may end up with the same.
Tom
ps I will pm you re FreeReg, just saw your post.
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Thanks Tom
I spent many summers there visiting my grandparents and several uncles and aunt and cousins.
All before the big housing housing expansion from the 70's onwards. really enjoyed it. used to go to the saltwater outdoor pool and try kill myself off the high board. I remember an Italian cafe place Dechaccis (cant recall exact name) or something similar where we'd get knickerbocker glories and parents would have tea and bun etc.
Spent many days down at the Harbour as my grandad would be with his buddies in the Chandlers on the right hand side as you entered into the harbour proper.
I recall getting fresh prawns off a fisherman Johnny Ross who had The Robin and was one of the boats still fishing out of Port Seton. Had an uncle who worked at the smokers in Cockenzie. I am currently trying to locate info on an Uncle who was killed in 1945, William Ross , killed at sea while on my grandfathers fishing boat. He is listed on the War memorial near Lorimer Place Cockenzie.
My grandfather had two or there vessels in his time. That's another area I intend to research.
Does the walled park still exist where the playground and bowling club and I think football park was? That was areal special place for kids in the 60's. The world was safe and there was no danger being left there for a couple of hours without supervision!
Ah, the good old days.
Scotskiwi (Bill)
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Hi Bill,
Your memory is very good, I used to dive off the 33ft diving board, lived in the pool during the summer.The cafe was Di Ciacci's served ice-creams and chips etc, great after all day in the pool. I stayed in Port Seton from 1948 to 1999,now stay in East Kilbride.My house in Port Seton looked onto bowling green,spent many an hour in Bowling Club. I know Johnny Ross, he stayed in North Seton Park, his mum was Mary Black, probably number 14, my gran stayed at number 10.
Tom
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What I meant was that Wm Ross b 22 April 1938 can't be my ancestor (gt gt grndfather) as the "professional" advised me, as it seems clear that he is actually William Ross b21 August 1921 who married Helen Greig. I worded my reply badly.
I didn't intend to suggest that Wm Ross born 20 March 1938 didn't exist, I myself had verified his existence but had failed to check that the validity of his marriage to Helen Greig.
Based on everything I have been advised it is not possible for him to be my gtgt grndtfather as was given me when I engaged the genealogist. It means I now have to redo my tree all the way back from him and I currently have over 200 ancestors in the Ross Hogg line and I lose Jackie Crookston on the way probably! A shame, I had become quite attached to her being my 5x Gt grandmother and proud of her being there.
Hopefully I might find a link between her Ross line and my new one back from William Ross b 21 Aug 1821 Tranent Parish Church entry 16780, Parents were David Ross and Margaret Jonnes (your discovery!)
No matter, lesson learned! I should have been wary when I had to chase the genealogist up several times and threaten to get my payment refunded. At the end of the day I was grateful to get anything even just a pedigree tree in effect. It just highhlights the need to be thorough.
I'm appreciative of the forum which has been very helpful. On the matter of Freereg is that also called FreeBMD?
Scotskiwi
Hi Portonian,
The Ross family you mentioned previously in your post are my family.
I am a grand-daughter of the John Ross of 14 East Lorimer Place - my Grandma Margaret died I think in 1963 I was very young but I do have photos of her.
My dad was Neil Ross but his full name was David Neilson Ross
His position in the family was 2nd youngest
William Ross known as Bill (Bricklayer) lived in 14 East Loan in Prestonpans till he was over 90years
Hannah Ross married John Allen (Builders) lived in 16 West Lorimer Place both deceased
John Ross known as Jock (Bricklayer) lived with my grandad in Lorimer place for years then married Jean McGlaughlin & lived in North Seton Park both deceased
David Neilson Ross married Isobel Harley Johnston lived 6 West Harbour Road till 1972 then moved to Wester Ross both deceased dad latterley in Dec 2010
Margaret Ross married Peter Lawrence (Polish national)
There are significant numbers of us still alive - many still in Port Seton & Scotland.
My sister in Scotland has lots of old photos that maybe of interest to you.
I also knew of other Ross's in North Seton Park but they were not related to us
I am new to this site so just trying to navigate the functionality of it all.
I hope this can be of assistance to you
Thanks
Hanrit
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Hi Hannah,
I hope you don't mind, but I moved the quote to top of post and shortened slightly, hope this OK with you.
Any questions, just ask.
Tom Buchanan
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Hi,
So, is your grandfather John Marshall Ross born 19 Oct 1884 married Margaret Price Ritchie born 10 June 1889 d 1963? If so then he is definitely my grandfather William's brother. He had sisters Mary Coull Ross, David Ross (d aged 1) Helen Ross b 1893 m William Donaldson and Agnes Marshall Ross d 1913 aged 16.I have no descendant info of these. You are my 'first contact' so to speak.
That would make us 2nd cousins. My father and your father were first cousins. My father David used to visit John in the 60's and 70's in Cockenzie at 14 East Lorimer Place. I only met John once or twice and I was very young when I met him......I think he was a tall man......my dad told me he was anyway.....everyone was tall when I was a lid. I'm 6'3 now though and was heads above all my cousins and uncles! lol.
Of course John and my grandfather were both born in 14 East Lorimer Place. The Ross's have a long history of houses in that street and others around Cockenzie. They also lived on Ross's land in Cockenzie but I've never been able to trace where it was as I'd need to access land records which I can't from New Zealand. I have researched the entire tree (almost) of the Ross's in Port Seton and only lack the info on the generations of the last 100 years really. My father is passed and I have no contacts in Port Seton left either. I have a twin brother, David who lives in Canada by the way.
Your info is of interest and I'd love to engage with your sister re photos etc. I have some of my side but not a lot. I lost much when I emigrated. Long Story.
Our tree goes back to an Alexander Ross and Cristian Brown born c 1675-1677 from what I have discovered.The Ross family in Cockenzie and Port Seton established circa 1744 with a Walter Ross who married one Rachel Hunter. I have over two thousand persons in Port Seton mapped and nearly every major family is in there. We are also related to the Donaldson family and the Crown Princess of Denmark........her father is my 5th cousin......she will be your 5th cousin once removed also! Don't think we could drop in for tea though....
More than happy to share what I have and swap stuff.
Bill Ross
Auckland
NZ
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Hi, I am very new to this site, a complete novice! I discovered it last night whilst searching under the surname Ross from Port Seton and coming across your conversation with Hannah in Australia. Hannah is my mums cousin. My mum is called *M. She is the daughter of John Allan the builder who married Hannah Ross, daughter of John Ross you talk about from Lorimer Place, Cockenzie. My mum is still in touch with Hannah's sister Margaret and also their aunt, my great Aunt, Margaret Lawrence (nee Ross). She has moved from Cockenzie to Edinburgh where she stays with her son *R. Uncle Peter Lawrence died many years ago. I stay in a village about 8 miles from Port Seton and have regular contact with my parents. We often have family discussions about the family history of Cockenzie and Port Seton. My dads family originate from there as well. He is a Thomson and his mother was a Donaldson. He has a lot of old photos of all the local fishermen which may be of interest. I don't know how far you have got with identifying the Ross family from the last 100 years but I'm sure I will be able to get most of the answers if you still need them.
Hopefully this may be of interest to you and between Hannah, you and I we will be able to name the most recent Ross's!
Hope to hear from you soon, Hannah (Another one!)
(*) Moderator Comment:
Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living. This is to protect all concerned from spam, identity abuse, internet abuse, etc, etc.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hannah, it was such a surprise to see your name coming up on this site when I was browsing last night! Reading the family names and history passed between you and the others was really interesting. I'm hoping that I will be able to fill in any blanks as I'm obviously living back home. I'm not sure if you have had any other contact with the other members of the Ross family so don't know which details are needed.
My memories of yourself are obviously quite distant now although I think I remember you visiting from Australia. I certainly remember you playing the accordion when we were younger! It would be interesting to know what has happened to your family as well. I have 2 teenagers, K**** (18) and J**** (17). K**** is just starting college in Aberdeen and J**** is still at school in North Berwick. I saw your sister M**** at Aunty Jean Ross's funeral last year and know that my mum keeps up with M**** and J**** every so often!
It would be great to catch up and pass on family stories!
Hannah x
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Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living. This is to protect all concerned from spam, identity abuse, internet abuse, etc, etc.
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Hi Hannah
Maybe I should say "cousin" as we are 2nd cousins once removed. Your mother is my 2nd cousin.
Our common ancestor is John Marshall Ross, brother of my grandfather William. Their parents were William Ross and Jane "Jessie" Marshall m 30 Dec 1881.
If you make another post I will PM (Personal Message) you regarding information exchange and swap email addresses. Just reply with a thanks for making contact message and that should be enough to qualify you as a PM recipient. Does your husband have his grandparents or great grandparents details that I could check out for him?
I would also love to see the photographs you mention as I have very few,just some photographs of my paternal grandfather and grandmothers golden wedding and a few taken from weddings of cousins in the late 60's and early 70's. Living away from Port Seton meant we only saw our uncles and aunts for a week or so every year with a pilgrimage back to Port Seton when my Grandparents were still alive.
It is possible that I have your husbands genealogy mapped out albeit with a gap of his parents and grandparents.. The Donaldson family features a lot in the research I have done.
I'd be very happy to provide you any information on your family tree you might want.
regards
Bill
NZ
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Hi Bill, good to hear back from you. I had my parents here today and they have a lot of knowledge about our family in the last century. My dad was talking about the Ross fishermen and all their nicknames. Nobody appears to have been called by their correct names! He apparently has a photograph of my great grandfather John Ross and his father, uncle and cousins on their fishing boat years back. I think this will include your side of the family too. I'm working the next few days but will try to get some names together over the next week or so. I should be able to do this I hope when I can send private messages. I asked if my mum or dad had heard of Ross's Land and they think it was down towards the harbour in Cockenzie. Have you managed to find this out yet? You wouldn't recognise Port Seton now. The swimming pool has gone and the town is about 3 times the size! They have started to demolish the power station as well. All change I'm afraid. The fishing fleet has been reduced to only a few boats with only a few of the original families involved. If there are any other family names you want to ask about I will see what I can do for you. Speak to you soon, Hannah
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Hi Hannah,
I saw mentioned "nicknames" or as Pym Johnston called them "Bye-Names" in his book "Cockenzie & Port Seton Bye-Name Directory". I had a paper copy of the book which I cannot put my hand on but I scanned a copy to my laptop, just as well.
My own grandfather and namesake, Tom Buchanan is in the book as "Whennel" brother in law of Jocky Dow, (John Ritchie). I think he got that name for continuously asking when the boats will be back in.
There are a few Ross bye-names in it. FIDDLER Wm. Ross (D) owner of motor drifter “Susan”, Elcho Place, others in the book, Dadles - David Ross brother of Cookies - Alec Ross. I will need to have another look at it.
Ross Land or Ross's Land is on my grandfather's birth certificate, I have been unable to pinpoint it either, but I am thinking it maybe a house or building, rather than a plot of land, I have seen that in other parts of Scotland. I don't know if a house stood in the walled site next to the "Boat Shore" or not, but I was thinking maybe around there.
Tom Buchanan
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Hi Folks
This is my first post but I have been following it with interest for some time as my mother is a "Ross" and my grandparents are the Ross's from 14 North Seton Park that Tom referred to in an earlier post on this thread. The Johny Ross that Bill mentions getting fish from is my uncle and he shared the boat The Robin with Skip Ross. I think we are all distantly related though as I have also traced my line back to Walter Ross and Rachel Hunter. I would be interested to hear if anyone has got further back than that.
With regard to the Land's such as Ross's Land, Lamb's Land, Thomson's Land etc they were buildings named after the person who owned it and rented out the flats. For example my grandfather was born in Fisherman's Land. This was a building owned by the Friendly Society of Fisherman. Cockenzie and Port Seton and housed 19 families. According to the 1911 census my grandfathers flat had 2 rooms with widows for six of them. Some of the flats had a lot more people than that. Fisherman's Land was to the east side of the Parish Church where Jonny Di Ciacca's was eventually and Rock Terrace was to the West side of the church overlooking the boatshore. It is possible to work out where the various buildings were using the census and Valuation Rolls and I was in the process of this to find Fishermans land when my mum told me where it was anyway. Someday I will work out where the rest of them were but I think most were along the North side of the High Street which was largely rebuilt in the early 1900's.
I have visited Register House a few times and have copies of lots of registery and Old Parish Records relating to the Ross's as well as census's. If anyone wants any of them please let me know.
Stuart
Port Seton
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Hi Stuart,
Good to hear from you, I saw your mum last week when I was back through in Port Seton.
Re Ross Land etc, that is where I was thinking, being the names of buildings rather than plots of lands. I wouldn't mind seeing the stuff from Land Registry.
Tom Buchanan
Ex- Port Seton, East Kilbride now
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Hi Stuart
What is the descent line from Walter Ross and Rachel Hunter for your family?
I always told my father that Johnny from the Robin must be a relative but Dad had no idea of genealogy back in the 60's and early 70's and his knowledge only went back to his own grandparents. Of course the internet has made life so much different.
Is your descent from the David Ross m Alison Brown - David Ross m Margaret Jones line or another?
Happy to exchange tree info.
I am particularly interested in any photographs of the Ross family members and have many copies of Census and also BMD records from Scotlands people and would also be pleased to lock in some Bye Names or T Names to the persons in my tree.
regards
Bill
NZ
PS: I have some possible ideas on the line going beyond Walter but it is impossible to prove definitively.......there are possibly another three generations back that could be presented for consideration.
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Hi Tom.
I only have the Valuation Roll (1915) and the census for Fisherman's Land and the VR for Wisharts Close as they were the only two I was interested at the time but you are welcome to them. It is a project I have lined up for the future to try to map them all though.
I got them from Register House but you have given me an idea with your mention of the Land Registery as I know someone who works there so might try that route.
Stuart
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Hi Bill
My descent line is from David Ross m Alison Brown then their last born son Alexander m Christina(Christian Coull) then John Ross m Isabella McDonald to William Ross m Jane Jarron to Alexander (Sandy) Ross m Mary Black (my grandparents). They had five children with my mum and Johnny being two of them.
More than happy to exchange tree info with you and your theory on Walter and Rachel.
regards
Stuart
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Hi Stuart,
When you mentioned Rock Terrace being the west side of Parish Church towards the Boat Shore, are the foundations still there? I seem to remember foundations being there, just at rear of parish church hall.
I hadn't thought of an earlier building on Johnny Di Ciacci's house and shop. That is a big plot. Might try and search the John Gray Centre online.
Tom
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Hi Tom
Rock terrace was at the west side of the church hall. If you look on google maps satellite view you can see the outline on the grass still. My mum has a painting of the boatshore looking east as it was when she was growing up and rock terrace is in that. the painting was by Jim Johnstone aka Killtheduck for all you that are into bye names :)
regards
Stuart
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Hi Stuart,
I just checked 1901 and 1911 census, and Ross' Close in 1901 and Ross's Close in 1911.
In 1901, no numbers of houses just a schedule number,
154 - Ross' Close Thomas Thomson Fisherman married a Margaret Ross +2 kids
155 - Main St S Side - William Cunningham Carter wife Annie +4 kids
156 - do do - Andrew Buchanan Fisherman (my GrGF) wife Jane + 6 kids
157 - do do - Robert Donaldson wife Annie + 1 kid
158 - South Door Wynd - William Mackie Fisherman wife Annie no kids
159 - do do do - David Stewart Fisherman wife Margaret no kids
In 1911 census, got door numbers but enumerator scored through them, thanks.
32 X Ross's Close - Isabella Donaldson - private means - 60yo
33 6? do do - Robert Frame Labourer at Pit + 3
34 8 do do - Ann Cunningham 55 + 2children
35 7? High Street - Thomas Jarron Fisherman + 6 family
36 6 High Street - Andrew Buchanan Fisherman (My Gr GF) plus 2family
37 (a) Boat Shore - Alexander Mackie plus 2 family
38 (b) Boat Shore - Peter Horne plus 2
39 (c) Boat Shore - Thomas Jarron Fisherman wife Mary plus 3
40 (d) Boat Shore - Alexander Peden 71 yo living on Private Means plus wife.
So it looks like Ross's Close was at or near the Boat Shore, are the a,b,c and d the houses that stand on the Boat Shore.
Tom
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Hi Hannah
Hope you are well.
Thought I'd send you some photographs from my Family Tree Records. I will send a nother message with a few more.
I have loads of images of postcards and their messages which were all found on ebay last year......quite a collection was auctioned off....
regards
Bill
NZ
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Hi there Stuart,
I haven't been on this site for a while but just read about 14 North Seton Park - my Uncle Jock (John)Ross lived in number 10 latterly I think with Jean McGlaughlin - he was a builder with my dad (Neil) and a keen photographer - did you know them? I also was at school with Sophia Ross (Fay) from Kay Gardens but she was always at her auntie Bella's in that street too - did you know her? I think they had a boat connection too. I saw some recent footage of old Cockenzie on Fbook recently not sure if the link is permitted but might be of interest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5PApoGLRio&list=UU2fi09-dIkgAg1oOGbRvs1w
chat soon Hannah (in Oz)
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Hi there Stuart,
I haven't been on this site for a while but just read about 14 North Seton Park - my Uncle Jock (John)Ross lived in number 10 latterly I think with Jean McGlaughlin - he was a builder with my dad (Neil) and a keen photographer - did you know them? I also was at school with Sophia Ross (Fay) from Kay Gardens but she was always at her auntie Bella's in that street too - did you know her? I think they had a boat connection too. I saw some recent footage of old Cockenzie on Fbook recently not sure if the link is permitted but might be of interest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5PApoGLRio&list=UU2fi09-dIkgAg1oOGbRvs1w
chat soon Hannah (in Oz)
Hi Hannah,
The Ross family stayed at 14 NSP, my grandad, Tom Buchanan stayed at number 10 NSP, he had swapped housed with Murdoch at 44 Inglis Avenue. Both my grandprents were deceased by 1967, so your friends may have stayed in 10 NSP after 1967.
Tom Buchanan
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I asked if my mum or dad had heard of Ross's Land and they think it was down towards the harbour in Cockenzie. Have you managed to find this out yet? You wouldn't recognise Port Seton now. Speak to you soon, Hannah
Hi all,
Pruned your previous post, however, I think I have found out how it was named "Ross's Land", it will clear up one problem, but lead to many more.
On the 1895 Valuation Records on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) , I find that the proprietor of some houses in South Doors and Ross's Land is a widow, called Helen Ross, a grocer in Cockenzie. Could this be Helen Greig??? My Great Grandfather, Andrew Buchanan is shown at one of the houses in Ross's Land, which I think could be the house on the junction of High Street and South Doors, immediately next to Cockenzie House. My grandfather Thomas Buchanan, was born in August 1895 and his birth certificate, quotes Ross's Land as his birthplace.
The Helen Greig who married William Ross died in 1903, but the 1905 Valuation Records still have her as a widow. In 1915 VR, it is shown as Jane C Ross as proprietor Could this be her daughter?
One question answered , but poses more.
Tom Buchanan
PS Just found that Jane Cleugh Ross is the daughter of David Ross and Helen Steedman not Greig, so these ones are not related, but they are responsible for "Ross's Land"
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On the 1895 Valuation Records on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) , I find that the proprietor of some houses in South Doors and Ross's Land is a widow, called Helen Ross, a grocer in Cockenzie. Could this be Helen Greig??? My Great Grandfather, Andrew Buchanan is shown at one of the houses in Ross's Land, which I think could be the house on the junction of High Street and South Doors, immediately next to Cockenzie House. My grandfather Thomas Buchanan, was born in August 1895 and his birth certificate, quotes Ross's Land as his birthplace.
The Helen Greig who married William Ross died in 1903, but the 1905 Valuation Records still have her as a widow. In 1915 VR, it is shown as Jane C Ross as proprietor Could this be her daughter?
One question answered , but poses more.
Tom Buchanan
PS Just found that Jane Cleugh Ross is the daughter of David Ross and Helen Steedman not Greig, so these ones are not related, but they are responsible for "Ross's Land"
The Helen Ross, who was marked as widow and Grocer in the Valuation Records, was not a Greig but Helen Steedman who had married David Ross. Helen Steedman Ross died on 21/02 1910, and there is a will on Scotlands People website that can be downloaded for 10 credits. Her daughter Jane Cleugh Ross was marked as proprietor in the 1915 Valuation Records. Jane was born in 1857, died in February 1936 as a spinster, death registered by a nephew. Her occupation was given as a property owner.