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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: sandlotball on Friday 30 November 07 00:16 GMT (UK)
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Looking for any information on the men who served in the following;
E. and M. Companies
3rd Battalion Old IRA
Dublin No. 1 Brigade - 196 Pearse Street
I only have the names of 46 of these men, but that is all.
Anyone with information on this Battalion or it's men, please contact me.
Thank You !
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personal message sent
Carol
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Hi do you have any ridgeway s on your list
please
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Would like to see the list of 46 names you have. Could you post the list on the site for us all to see.
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( Here is the list, have not yet been able to determine when it was published. I believe it to be between 1933 & 1940. Any information on any of the men listed - IE; home addresses, occupations, employer, death date - PLEASE POST here.)
E. and M. Companies
3rd BATTALION OLD I.R.A.
Dublin No. 1 Brigade - 196 Pearse Street
- NAMES OF DECEASED MEMBERS -
Thomas Whelan
Noel Lemass
Michael O'Connor
Patrick Doyle
David Irons
Batt O'Connor
Sean Bowden
Dick Hyland
Thomas Cooke
George Ward
John Mansfield
John J. Whelan
Harry McEntee
Phillip Connery
Ritchie Kelly
T. Byrne
E. Conlon
P. Doran
A. Lanigan
Jerry Green
Harold Corrigan
Phillip Byrne
Alf McLoughlin
Joseph O'Neill
Frank Jackson
Jack McGowan
Patrick Murphy
Thomas McDonnel
Nicholas Byrne
Larry Murphy
Mathew Tannam
Joseph Rochford
William Henry
Peter Blackburn
Frank McGrath
J. Reilly
M. McCaura
J.J. Whelan
Charles Kavanagh
Miceal de Burca
J. Moran
Bernard Culligan
John Hyland
James Kearns
- I am particularly interested in the names in bold print -
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I suppose you have this already !! ::)
http://www.politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title=Noel_Lemass
Annie :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/031a/
http://www.politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title=Noel_T._Lemass
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/466660
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This man isn't on your list ... but I thought you may be interested ! :)
Bohan William. Erected by Mrs Frances Bohan in memory of her husband William who died January 26th 1882 aged 78 years, her child Margaret died May 1851 aged 7 years. Son Daniel died October 4th 1888 aged 37 years. Grandchild Martin died December 12th 1889 aged 6 months. Daughters Mary and Frances. Son William, wife Ellen, their children Philip and John, Daniel and Thomas died USA. Thomas Cahill son-in-law died July 10th 1964, his wife Frances died August 8th 1970. William Bohan died August 24th 1983, Second Lieutenant Dublin Brigade Old IRA.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sgrieves/cemeteries__ireland.htm
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I suppose you have this already !! ::)
http://www.politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title=Noel_Lemass
Annie :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/031a/
http://www.politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title=Noel_T._Lemass
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/466660
Thats great thanks. I was going to post the story of Noel Lemass when I had time this weekend, but now I don't have to ! The picture of the memorial I had not seen. Thanks so much !
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Patrick Doyle
Patrick Doyle was a carpenter, married with four children, from Dublin. He was one of the six men hanged following the attempted ambush at Drumcondra. His brother Seán was fatally wounded at the Custom House six weeks later.
http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/October11/11forg.html
Annie :)
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I'm not so sure this is the same Paddy Doyle, Annie.
I have some information on a different fella, same name.
I'll have to look into this a bit deeper.
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Theres a priest called Patrick Doyle too - who was sympathetic ! ::) ::)
but you know them Irish .... there's thousands of Patrick Doyles ... and most of them living in Dublin too !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Heres Sean by the way !! ( except it's not showing up properly ... if you Google him you'll get it !! :-\
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_Lemass
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I thought you might be interested in this .... scroll down to #120 !!
http://www.whytes.ie/4PrintCatalogue.asp?Auction=20060409
Annie :)
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I would be interested in any information you have on Patrick (Black Paddy) Doyle. Family legend says he was a major.
Son of Philip.
Interred in the Curragh about 1938 or 39.
While in jail studied language and eventually became a professor of language
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My great uncle was a member of E Company 6 Battalion Dublin brigade and he is not amongst the men you have listed. Contact me for more information and please let me know why it is you want this information. Thanks.
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Michael Smith was in E company 2nd Battalion. Think he joined in 1915.
In March 1922 he was elected Captain.
Edit: Sorry I forgot to give his address and occupation
In 1916 he was living on Bayview Ave. He later lived on Summer hill.
He was a coach painter.
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Here's some names of E company that also were members of Laurence O'Tool Gaelic Games Club.
There is a little paragraph about each name. Fairly basic stuff about each man.
If anyone spots a relative and can't get their hands on the book, they can send a private message to me and I'll let you know what it says.
The booklet is called "Saint Laurence O'Toole G.A.C. Centenary History" by Jimmy Wren"
I've only listed E Company here but there are a few from other companies that were members of the club.
Thomas Leahy
Thomas Roche
Laurence Mackey
Patrick Mitchell
Patrick J. Weafer
James Barrett
Liam Daly
Vinny Byrne
Michael Colgan
Tom Drumm
James Hannon
James Kenny
Thomas Losty
Sean Lynch
William Lynch
Paddy McDonnell
Mick McDonnell
Michael Meade
James Murran
Michael O'Rouke
James Sheils
Denis Shelly
Thomas Shelly
Michael Smith
Jim Slattery
James Brougham
Patrick Duffy
Tom Kehoe
Michael Lawless
Johnny McDonald (Mc Donnell)
James Lawless
Tim O'Neill
William O'Brien
Frank O'Brien
Bernard Murphy
Dan Begley
Jim Dempsey
Patrick Birney
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I just had a quick read of this, Noel Lemass lived in Capel St, He was shot after the Civil War.It was rumoured that it was Free State officers in plain clothes that did it.The reason he was shot was he was taking pot shots at army trucks from his parents home & managed to kill 2 officers.He went on the run to the Isle of Man if I remember right & returned a few months after the Civil War ended.His body was found in the Dublin Mountains I think.
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I remember going up the Dublin Mountains as a child to "Lemass's Grave" - I think up on the "Featherbed".
- don't know if he's actually buried there, or was it a monument.
eadaoin
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I think this is the monument you're referring to re Noel Lemass
http://www.geograph.ie/photo/466660
there was something in the papers in 2000/2001 suggesting that he had been decapitated.
From another board :
"His body was found 3 months after he had been abducted in Dublin by Sgt John O'Leary and Sgt Glynn from Rathfarnham police station. Sgt O'Leary in a report written on the day the body was discovered wrote: 'I found lying near a ditch, the remains of a man in a completely decomposed state. The skull was two yards from the rest of the body. The lower jaw was disconnected from the upper, the teeth and other small bones were scattered about'. Sgt O'Leary's report continued: 'In the vest I found rosary beads, an eyeglass and the glass of a wristlet watch. The hip pockets of the pants were turned out as if they had been searched'. "
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3rd Battalion had quite a lot of Companys. I know they had a K coy. In 1914 the 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, Irish Volunteers, had its Headquarters and a Drill Hall at 41, York St , and a large enclosed space had been secured off Camden Row for open air drill. Anyone know this spot. Must be built on now a days. Then the split came. the 3rd moved to a large premises at Lower Pembroke Street. Any got a photo in a box somewhere?,There were only five Battalions in the Dublin area as far as I know. They set up a .22 range in this place and members had to fire a number of rounds per month. In 1915 at the All Ireland Competition held out in Rush, Co Dublin. It was C company of the 3rd Battalion that won the cup. I have not got the names of the team. More the pity. The silver cup was presented by Bolands Ltd.Forthy years ago I was told that the Company still holds the cup. Anyone know of such a cup?. It would be a nice find. The main job of the 3rd Battalion at the burning of the Custom House was to take over the Fire Station at Tara St, They were to hold the Staff till the fire took hold. This they did. They had other jobs of a smaller nature but important ones. They had some six to eight men from the 4th Battalion to beef up the posts outside as far as the westland row station.Private 1st Class.
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Hi, Some names from the 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade,
Lt James Bird, Capt Seamus Brogan, Staff-Capt Thomas Cullen, (F.R.I.A.I.), Capt Henry O'Farrell, Lt Frank Gallagher Lt Liam Lucas, Ned Devitt, Bob O'Donnell, Peter Keating George Hogan, Sean McCluskey, Stephen Coates,Jimmy Keegan, Billy Redmond, Jim Boyce, Jimmy Maher, Billy Charles, Jim Kinsella, Tom Burke, Paddy roberts, John Fynes, Jim (Kruger) Smithers . Mick White, F ( bONER) Lawor, Sean Kavanagh, Jim Boyce, Jack O'Connell, Christy Grimes, Sean Breen, Leo Purcell, Sean Harpur, Frank Birmingham, Ned Davitt. Arthur O'Sullivan, Paddy Hardiman, from Private 1st class..
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Does anyone know anything about the role of E Company of the Second Battalion in the Bloody Sunday Assassinations? According to T Ryle Dwyer's book on the Squad, Slattery, Keogh and six men from that company took part in the killing of Mahon/Angliss in Mount Street. He mentions Frank Teeling, who was captured, McClean who was also shot but escaped, and Jim Dempsey but that still leaves at least three who entered the house and also a picket outside which captured and killed two Auxiliaries (the first killed in the War of Independence), which might also have been from the same company.
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Hi Seanod
My grandfather was in E company and on his pension he says he was involved in Bloody Sunday. No details. So I don't know if it was a minor activity or what.
He didn't agree with the levels of violence on the day. So my mother really couldn't believe it was on his pension.
But Todd Andrews also, I think may have been one of these men not accustomed to these assassination type squad activities that got roped in on the day. He too found the behavior of the groups on the day hard going.
The only other clue to what sort of things my grandfather got up to was that he bound and gagged Detective O'Brien at his home. They searched him and found papers relating to IRA members and they warned him if he continued he'd be shot in the street if he continued his investigations. So to me that sound like a sorta run up to assassination in the men's homes. But still a very different thing.
I really really want to solve this mystery he left us.
I'm not 100% if Todd Andrews was E Company, but I think so. But it struck me that he came away from it with the same feelings about it as my Grandfather.
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Hi Ms Smokestoomuch, I'm sure you've seen the stuff in the T Ryle Dwyer book about Todd Andrews and his being disgusted by the methods used by the people who were with him on a raid in the Ranelagh Road. He said that the two Squad men, Dolan and McDonnell "behaved like Black and Tans." The reason why I'm interested in this is that my great-uncle was taken by the Auxiliaries, beaten up and thrown into the Liffey at the beginning of February 1921, so it seems likely that he had been involved in something before this to attract the attention of informers. As he was in E Company, the Mount Street attack seems the most likely thing but there is no evidence either way, and as he was killed in the Custom House he didn't leave any witness statements or pension applications. The only chance is that someone might have left a few clues in one of the other witness statements, but Slattery is the only one who definitely left a witness statement. I looked at it for Custom House stuff but I didn't check to see what he says about Bloody Sunday. I'll let you know if I find anything in my research!
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Yes I went through that part of the book with a fine tooth comb.
The other thing that might be worth remembering is how many target on the day failed. I think the night before the list had about 35 named targets and it got reduced to around 25. And out of that there was a lot of assassinations that were fumbled or didn't work out. So with the information being scant for those targets that they got, there is probably a lot more not written about that were failures. So if men were involved in a hit that was a disaster, say between nerves and inexperience, they may have preferred not to pass on the story of their experience.
And while there were people like Vinni Bryne there were probably a lot without his experience or his attitude.
One guy shooting his reflection in the mirror, tells a lot about what some were going through on the day.
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That's very true. I notice that the raid which Todd Andrews took part in was supposed to be the preserve of the fourth battalion - I don't know if that means that Andrews was in the fourth battalion himself? I have noticed that frequently people are not where they were supposed to be in terms of their companies and battalions - during the Custom House the second battalion were supposed to be inside and the first battalion outside, but there seem to have been as many second battalion people among the pickets.
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I am a bit lost as to the actual names of the relatives of
Seanod and Mssmokestoomuch
who were in E Company and are believed to have been involved in Bloody Sunday. It would be really useful if they could put them here.
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Hi Corisande,
My grandfather is Michael Smith of E company. The only information I have is one line in his pension. "Took part in Operation Sunday Nov 21st"
So that is listed among other activities during that period while he was under the command of Capt. William Byrne.
It was a bit of a surprise to find it on his pension. He certainly doesn't seem to be a squad type.
I'm wondering was he involved in one of the hits that failed. Very little written about the failures. I'm watching closely what you've been uncovering out on your Cairo Gang tread.
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I am putting together the names of the men that made up each group. As you say nobody wants to own up to the "empty nests" nor to the "mistakes".
It is further complicated by the fact that Dublin Brigade IRA added to Collins original list
This is presumably not your grandfather
"Sean Smith’s appointment with four officers at the Standard Hotel in Harcourt Street was called off, never kept. There was no longer anyone there to kill"
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Hola, Corisande, Que tal estas? My great-uncle was Edward Dorins - I have put details onto Wikipedia. As I said above, the connection with Bloody Sunday is only speculative and is based on two things - his well-documented abduction and near-drowning by Auxiliaries at the beginning of February 1921 and his status as NCO. These lead me to think that he must have been involved in some kind of action earlier than his abduction, and Mount Street is the most likely event because so many of E Company were in it. However, there were other actions around the same time and earlier, so unless I find something in the witness statements it would be safer to assume that he didn't take part. :)
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Hola, bien gracias, hace calor aqui :)
Certainly Lower Mount St operation was E Company plus 2 men from head office
22 Lower Mount St was not a salubrious place in 1920, when General Crozier went into the house after the shootings he remarked "the dingy, dirty house resembled a bad billet in France, shot up by French mutineers"
At the moment my feeling is that 11 IRA men went there, the 2 squad men plus 9 from E Coy. I know who 5 of those 9 were, and he is not one of the ones who were definitely involved.
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Que vida esta! :) I think there are a number of individuals mentioned by T. Ryle Dwyer, probably the names you have. Teeling was captured, of course, and a man called Lean was shot in the hand. (I think Dwyer calls him McLean). He was later involved in a murder in Scartaglin in Kerry in 1924. He stood trial but the sentence of death was commuted because the main protagonist (Jeremiah Gaffney) took full responsibility. His being injured with Teeling is mentioned in one of the newspaper reports, so it is definitely the same man. If my memory serves me right, Slattery was in charge of the picket and Slattery killed the two Auxiliaries. Hope that helps.
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If my memory serves me right, Slattery was in charge of the picket and Slattery killed the two Auxiliaries.
Yes Slattery was in charge, along with Tom Keogh.
The 2 Auxiliaries were shot by the covering IRA force, I think, rather than Slattery himself. I think Slattery was still in or near the house when the Auxiliaries were shot near Mount St Bridge
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Hi all
As I have said in the Custom House thread my granddad was in E Company 2nd Battalion. I don't know wether he was involved in the Bloody Sunday attacks, but my Uncle has told me he had shot a few people on different occasions. It would be interesting to know if he was involved.
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my granddad was in E Company 2nd Battalion
Who was he?
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Hi corisande
His name was Philip Flynn or Phil Flynn. He may even have been called by his middle name Christopher.
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According to T Ryle Dwyer's book on the Squad, Slattery, Keogh and six men from that company took part in the killing of Mahon/Angliss in Mount Street. He mentions Frank Teeling, who was captured, McClean who was also shot but escaped, and Jim Dempsey but that still leaves at least three who entered the house and also a picket outside which captured and killed two Auxiliaries
My feeling to date on "Upper Mount Street" IRA men is that the following were involved (remember there was a shooting at Lower Mount Street as well, which is the quote above)
- Vinny Byrne in charge, entered Bennett's room
- Herbie Conroy entered Bennett's room
- Frank Saurin entered Bennett's room
- Sean Doyle entered Bennett's room
- ? entered Ames room
- ? entered Ames room
- Tom Ennis. Ames room
- Tom Duffy Ames room
- Michael Lawless by the front door
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According to T Ryle Dwyer's book on the Squad, Slattery, Keogh and six men from that company took part in the killing of Mahon/Angliss in Mount Street. He mentions Frank Teeling, who was captured, McClean who was also shot but escaped, and Jim Dempsey but that still leaves at least three who entered the house and also a picket outside which captured and killed two Auxiliaries
And for the IRA men who attacked Lower Mount St. The following IRA men appear to have been involved, and were from E Company, 3rd Battalion. The group appears to have numbered 11 on IRA data. It appears that 5 entered the house and the others were on guard outside
- Tom Keogh, the squad
- Jim Slattery the squad
- Frank Teeling - who was captured
- Denis Begley
- Andy Monaghan
- Billy McLean, hand wound
- Jim Dempsey E company
Can anyone add to this list?
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My Grandfather was in F Company Dublin Brigade Batt II. His name was Charlie Murphy and he was from the East Wall area. He was involved in a number of activities and was arrested and imprisoned by the British military at one point. According to my family he was involved in the Bloody Sunday shootings (the Gresham Hotel) but I have never seen any confirmation of this. He went on to serve in the CID in Oriel House. According to our family he was asked to join Oriel House by the anti-treaty side so he could supply information to them. He went to the United States in or about 1923 and returned to Ireland in 1933.
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat
If you follow this link to the Gresham Hotel shootings (http://www.cairogang.com/addresses/gresham-hotel/gresham-hotel.html) it gives you an idea of what went on.
I have added your grandfather's name there, and a link to a page on him(nothing there on his page except your remarks at the moment) If you would like to post more info about your grandfather and what you know of the Gresham shootings I would be happy to add it
You will find it difficult to get confirmation outside of the family, as the leader was Paddy Moran, of that group, and he was hanged for another of the shootings that morning - but is is accepted that he did in fact lead the Gresham hotel group
Did your grandfather make one of those historical statements?
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Did your grandfather make on of those historical statements?
There's no mention in Joseph E.A. Connell's book of Charlie Murphy making a Witness Statement. There is mention of a Charles Murphy voting against the Treaty 7 Jan 1922.
Have you applied to Renmore for his Old IRA Pension Application? It takes about a year to receivethe files but well worth the wait.
Dara.
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Thanks for those encouraging responses. No I did not apply to Renmore but I will do so as I know that my grandmother was in receipt of the old IRA pension. My grandfather died in 1963 but his wife lived to 2001 (aged 99).
Most of what I learned about Charlie was from her. I pretty much accepted at face value her account of him being involved in the Gresham shootings which she described in detail. I recently read an account along the lines described in your linked page and the details are very different. For one thing the account I was given was that when the IRA men entered the room (I presume Wilde's) they encountered two men. Charlie told my grandmother that one of these men reached for a gun and he was shot (this man apparently being McCormack) I was told that the policy in assassinations was for all three shooters to fire at the same time if possible so that no-one was certain that their bullet had caused the death. In Charlie's account one of the hit squad departed from this policy and went up to McCormack and put a number of bullets into his head. As I say that is the account I grew up with and it appears to conflict with the accepted version. Charlie was a local Dublin lad who stayed in touch with his old comrades (F Company had its own unit in the LDF during World War II) Is it possible he made up that story? I will have to keep researching to put the matter to rest.
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I am a fund of detail on the shootings!
The only one that had "two men in a bed" was
http://www.cairogang.com/addresses/mount-st-lower/mount-st.html
and was the killing of Angliss
http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/angliss.html
If that was the building he was part of the hit squad, it is odd that that was not the story told in the family, rather than the Gresham Hotel.
It is always possible that there was another man in Wildes room, and that this has never come out. But unlikely
The pension book should be your next stop, as that could give you more details.
I should add that the group who killed Angliss appear to have been 2nd Battalion.
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Thanks for that.
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Corisande
Is that request to Renmore made under the Freedom of Information Act?
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Sorry - I am not competent to reply on that one
If nobody replies in the next hour or so PM "oaks and acorns" or"mssmokestoomuch" on this forum, as they know more about actually getting the details than I do
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My feeling to date on "Upper Mount Street" IRA men is that the following were involved (remember there was a shooting at Lower Mount Street as well, which is the quote above)
- Vinny Byrne in charge, entered Bennett's room
- Herbie Conroy entered Bennett's room
- Frank Saurin entered Bennett's room
- Sean Doyle entered Bennett's room
- ? entered Ames room
- ? entered Ames room
- Tom Ennis. Ames room
- Tom Duffy Ames room
- Michael Lawless by the front door
BTW I have a professional photograph of F Company (with the names underneath) taken I think in the 40's or 50's and it shows Frank Saurin as a member of F Company, Batt II.
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I am nearly certain that it is under the FoI act the information is provided
I applied by letter last year to Renmore for information on two people
They have the written records for every individual who applied for a War of Independence Pesions regardles of whether they were successful or not!
I appiled last October and have been told it could be September before I get the files
So great patience needed!!!!! :o
I believe however it is worth it
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Thanks for that. I will apply straight away.
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I have a professional photograph of F Company (with the names underneath)
Why not indulge us all and put it up here with the names
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Ok The picture is too big to fit on my scanner so I have done the picture and the names underneath separately. It is a bit blurry but you should be able to make out the names. Hope you find it interesting.
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I've sent you a PM.
Dara.
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hi very interesting photo. Taken at the casino in marino, Any idea where it came from. A lot of units done similar type photos at this time. 1941
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Hi Magell 14, Thats extremely interesting...thank you for taking the time to show us.
Best regards.
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I was told that the policy in assassinations was for all three shooters to fire at the same time if possible so that no-one was certain that their bullet had caused the death.
That just doesn't ring true.
Dara.
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I was told that the policy in assassinations was for all three shooters to fire at the same time
That just doesn't ring true.
I would go along with Dara on that. At most of the addresses, as far as one can tell, the two men from "head office" were assigned to do the killing, the others were there to protect the hit men. Nowhere in the witness statements have I read anything about three firing together
It is a variation on the military firing squad where one man would be given a blank bullets so that they all could believe that they had the blank
Many of the men on Bloody Sunday suffered traumas for the rest of their lives. There is a good paper
"KILLING AND BLOODY SUNDAY,NOVEMBER 1920 by ANNE DOLAN Trinity College, Dublin"
Which goes in some depth into the traumas
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I was told that the policy in assassinations was for all three shooters to fire at the same time if possible so that no-one was certain that their bullet had caused the death.
That just doesn't ring true.
Dara.
I was only reporting what I was told by my grandmother(my grandfather died when I was 6 months old). What made me post on this website was that the stories I was told particularly involvement in Bloody Sunday did not appear to be accurate. Apart from the Bloody Sunday there were other killings which were more like executions. It is possible that details have been mixed up in the telling.
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I think that is the most likely explanation - Sean Lemass had some pithy quotes about the "Squad" men not holding reunions, so much of those memories have disappeared
There were two obvious types of executions. Firstly in the street where a target was taken out and that was usually by at least two men, secondly the "court martial" in a field and summary execution where a group of men would carry it out, and I can see in tat case that they would fire together in the way you describe.
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hi very interesting photo. Taken at the casino in marino, Any idea where it came from. A lot of units done similar type photos at this time. 1941
It was among my grandmothers things and belongs to my father (he is a healthy 85 but is sketchy about his father). He also has Charlie's War of Independence medal.
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The Bloody Sunday operation was so vast with over 200 men taking part, that unraveling who was with which group is difficult, but I do not believe impossible
As far as I can see now, there were around 15 groups assigned to different houses. Many of these groups found their targets were not at home.
Each group had about 2 men assigned from Collins central organisation (probably the men who did the killing) and Intelligence man who was responsible for picking up papers, and about a dozen others. The groups varied in size, presumably depending on a combination of the numbers of targets in a house, and the complexity of the ground layout.
It would seem that each house was then the responsibility of one company or battalion (I am not clear yet which), and that most men attacking that house came from the one company
I have a list here of the Squad members (http://www.cairogang.com/ira-men/IRA-MEN.html) plus additions made from Active Service Units over time and which houses they attacked (where I know)
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Hi these lads held many reunions, Tours, Dinner dances . I went on a lot of them.The dinner dances were held most of the time in the Ormond Hotel for the 2nd Battalion. and strange as it may seem to people now reading this. There was no dance floor area in the Ormond. One tour that I remember was to Stormont in the North, It been Sunday everything was closed. Wicklow Town was another. AN odd good fight would take olace after the drink on the way home. No one got hurt. A shake of hands and that was it. Sales of work Big ones, were held in the Mansion House. Great prizes on the big wheel. The women also held reunions. The Dromcondra Bch of Cumman na mBan would meet in the Gresham Hotel, Once a year. In there later years it became afternoon tea.
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Did you go to any pre-1963?
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Hi yes. I had a mom and dad that took me every where .I remember at eight or nine playing down in 196 Pearse St on a Sunday morning. Then after to 51 Parnell Sq, when the Collage took back the place. Happy times and very nice people.
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I will check with my Dad to see did he ever go to any of those.
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HI GUYS THAT SPRING TO MIND JIM BRADY, NED LANE, PADDY CADWELL WERE ON THE COMMITTEES THERE ARE OTHER ONES THAT I CAN NOT THINK OF AT THE MOMENT. tHEY HAD A BEAUTIFUL THREE QUARTERS BILLIARD TABLE IN 196 PEARSE ST. IT WAS BILLIARDS THEM DAYS NOT SNOOKER.
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No I checked with my Dad and he remembered nothing about reunions. Having said that I know my grandfather did have contact with his ex comrades because he joined an LDF unit during the World War II made up (I think) exclusively of ex-comrades. I attach a photo if anyone is interested.
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Hi Great photo. Taken on the square of Collins Barracks, Dublin early 40s.taken around the 40 yard marker. This is B Coy of the 26 Infantry Battalion. Officer in Charge and sitting in the middle Is Lt P C Cahaill. He was to be P C Cahaills along the quays Bachelors walk. To his left is Plt Sgt Edward Lane. The second row fifth in from the right Matty Doyle. and third row Vincent Lyons Third in from the right. Keep them coming. Good to see them get an airing. The NCO sitting to the right of P C is the Battalion Qm Can not think of his name at the moment. The oldest serving soldier of that battalion was called Boland. Patrick James Boland. He is not in this photo. He joined the 26th in 1940 at the age of sixty and served till 1945. It was Paddy Boland who took out the sentry on the magazine Fort in 1916. Six foot tall 13 stone. He was a very fit man all his life. Paddy was born 17th Feb 1880.
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Here's a couple.
Sorry one is so poor in quality but these old photocopies of stuff passed around is was I've had to rely on.
It's the 26th Battalion
Maybe someone might find a relation of their own.
Mine is Michael Smith. He's middle row second from the left.
On the lousy picture I'm not sure but I think he is over the letter "A" of the the word Captain in the caption.
Looks like some years have passed between both photos. And either weight gained or lost.
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Hi Great photo. Taken on the square of Collins Barracks, Dublin early 40s.taken around the 40 yard marker. This is B Coy of the 26 Infantry Battalion. Officer in Charge and sitting in the middle Is Lt P C Cahaill. He was to be P C Cahaills along the quays Bachelors walk. To his left is Plt Sgt Edward Lane. The second row fifth in from the right Matty Doyle. and third row Vincent Lyons Third in from the right. Keep them coming. Good to see them get an airing. The NCO sitting to the right of P C is the Battalion Qm Can not think of his name at the moment. The oldest serving soldier of that battalion was called Boland. Patrick James Boland. He is not in this photo. He joined the 26th in 1940 at the age of sixty and served till 1945. It was Paddy Boland who took out the sentry on the magazine Fort in 1916. Six foot tall 13 stone. He was a very fit man all his life. Paddy was born 17th Feb 1880.
Good info on that picture. That is my grandfather, Charlie Murphy, third in from the left (as you are looking at it) He is also in the earlier photo I posted.
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Hi, In this picture the Platoon Officer is 2/Lieut Michael Smith. Rifle Champion. Winner of the Battalion Shooting Competitions of that year. His Platoon Sargeant was A/Sgt Wally Carpenter. He was in charge of number 8 Platoon, of B Company, 26th Rifle Battalion. While Murphy is a common enough name There is only two in B Coy at that time and they are in number 8 platoon. But they are down as J Murphy. May be an error or miss print. or he could be called some pet name, like a fellow born Francis and later in life he is called Frank. At the time of that Photo which was late 1943 and early 1944There is only two Murphy's in B Company. Both are in number 8 platoon. One in number one section and the other in number 4 section.In number one section there is a man called J Traviskis. I believe that he was the father of a young man who appeared on the Late Late Show many years ago with U O'Connor and Gay. cause a storm at the time. would love to see more of these photos. The more they are shown the better chance of them surviving. Otherwise they often get fired out into the bin.
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You certainly are 1st class.
I am so grateful you passed on that information about the battalion shooting competition. I'm only starting to realise that Michael smith was so handy with a gun.
There was one clue he had left in a remark in an account of his actions, that he left with his family. But it was a joke and I didn't give it much thought.
He had said that on one occasion Jim Slattery was to be my grandfather's armed guard. He said both of them found that quite funny as he they thought Jim was a lousy shot. And if any shooting should start, my grandfather said he would lie on the ground.
I didn't really give it much thought.
I have over the last week, just found out he was one of the snipers on the roof of Jacobs in 1916.
He never went into detail about how he got on in Jacobs. I suspect now it was that in comparison to other outposts, during the Rising, he felt they hadn't done much and it was not something to be going on about. So this is all news to me.
I'm finding time and time again that I've been underestimating the little clues.
My grandfather Micheal Smith must have been delighted in his 50s he hadn't lost his touch.
Thanks so much Private 1st Class.
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Glad to be of help. B Company was made up of mostly 2nd Battalion Dublin Brigade men. As I would say to them when I got the chance. What is the most important medal on the soldier. Its his service medal. all the rest follow. Same with Jacobs. There were there. Not their fault that they were never tested. Did he he make a run for it after or did he surrender. I'll give you a strange little story. A man refused to surrender in Jacobs and went on the run till they were released from British Jails. That is a story in it self, When it came to apply for the pension, The time is broken up into sections by date. The Easter week is one period. Brake Easter week into fifths. as only the Dept can. Because he did not surrender with the rest wait for it. He was stopped one fifth of the money that covered Easter week. So he received four fifths service for that week. Good.?. I hope to be able to get some photos of number 6 platoon. As soon as I do I'll put them up. Bye for now.
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Hi a few thoughts on re-unions, outings and the like. Its the same now as it was then, A battalion of seven to eight hundred men. If you form an Association for your Battalion. You would be very lucky to get one hundred to one twenty men to join and of that you would be lucky to get fifty strong supporters.When fellows leave the Defence Forces, its almost impossible to get them back into an association. Take a look at the membership of the ONEt and compare it to the numbers of ex soldiers. Most men when do not want any connection to associations for a hundred and one reasons. So when an ex soldier says he knows nothing about re-unions and the like. Its because he never kept up his contact.They had many such events. On Sat thee 19th Feb 1944. Ceilidhes were very poplar. No TVs, and the like. The Mansion House was thee place to be. B company 26th Battalion (second Battalion Old I R A.) had a re-union ceilidhe with old time dance (anyone remember them) in the Mansion House. At the intermission The Tully Troupe of Dancers took to the floor and Capt Sean Mooney sang.The band was Sean Fox and the M C Joseph Murphy .IN THOSE DAYS THE DANCES WOULD BE PRINTED OUT.You would have your Waltz, followed by a Paul Jones then onto the Walls of Limerick and a Military Two Step. A lady could book her dances in advance. If she knew a guy was good at jig she could book her dance with him at the beginning of the night and so to the man. That night through the courtesy of Radio Eireann part of the Ceilidhe was broadcast live from 10.40 to 11pm. The compere for the Radio Programme was none other than 2/Lieut P C Cahill..That was a regular thing with units. So not knowing about these things and they being broadcasted I would say it was by choice.I have a article by Capt Pat McCrea o/c B company 26Th Battalion some where if I find it I'll put it up.
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Private 1st Class you are a real resource on these matters. I think my Grandmother wasn't in to dances and that might be why they didn't go. I have prepared my application to Renmore and will be sending it off tomorrow. Charlie had sharp shooting skills and my Dad has little cloth insignia that were attached to the uniform. You might know more about those. He used to drink in McGoldericks on Dorset Street (might not be right about that)
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Hi is the patch shaped like a little cross. about an inch square. dark green. It would have a bow and arrow. A marksman badge. A nice little thing to have.
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You know your stuff! I am pretty sure it is. It is in my dad's house and it is a while since I saw it. I'll take a photo of it and post it up tomorrow evening.
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Sorry to be picking your brain again, Private 1st Class, but you wouldn't know where the British interned the old IRA members they picked up en masse after the burning of the Custom House. I have a recollection someone told me it was close to the Bull Wall.
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Hi as far as I know all were taken to Kilmainham Jail. Don't ever remember anyone talking about a place in or near the Bull wall. Sorry. They may have been taken to different places to be questioned and a lot of them were charged. It would not have been possible to do all that in the one area. Anyone with any information on this one. I would be glad to hear from you.
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Hi all, my grandad was captured at the Custom House burning. He ended up in Kilmainham. but the story is that he was taken to Arbour Hill Prison first and then transfered. Don't know how true it is but that's the story.
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Yeah I don't think my grandfather was involved in the Custom House but he was arrested by regular British Soldiers at his house in North Dublin. What I was told was that he was interned at a military prison (a camp) of a temporary nature I think over towards the Bull Wall. I think he was glad that he was arrested by regulars and he apparently had a high regard for the commanding officer of the prison.
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What company was he in? I do beleive most of the Dublin Brigade was involved in the Custom House raid. Some would have been outside ready to keep the army away and some where keeping the firebrigade away.
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Hi I have my old man on the phone as I am typing this and he says the camp was on Dollymount . He remembers himself seeing the remains of the camp (barbed wire etc ) in 1935 approx.
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He also says that Rory O'Connor was in the camp at the same time and O'Connor escaped. My grandfather was in there until the Treaty was signed and during the burning of the Custom House. So he definitely was NOT involved with the burning of the Custom House.
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Did you say that you have sent off for his pension application? I got my granddads affter almost a two year wait, but it did give a bit of information. Not much but a bit more than I thought I would get. His imprisoment should be on it as that wouls count towards his pension even though he wasn't fighting.
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http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-truth-behind-the-murder-of-sean-hales-498947.html
Hope this works, but was this the Rory O'Conner that you mentioned?
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Hi the Military had a rifle range at Dollymount. Most of these camps had Nissan Huts It would be a simple matter to put wire around it if not already there and put up extra huts. A famous event took place out there The world rifle competitions were held out there. The U S A developed a rifle to take on the Irish. The trophy of which was found at bisley England. The range was at least 1,000 yds long. That was the distance this competition was fired at, As far as I know they fired from the main land out toward the island.
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The same man. That is an interesting article. Things got very ugly at that stage of the Civil War. According to my family lore my grandfather went against the treaty ( I wonder had this to do with his incarceration with O'Connor) and actually went down to the Four Courts. It is said that he was told by O'Connor that he should join Oriel House so he could pass on information to the Anti's (which he did).
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Hi the Military had a rifle range at Dollymount. Most of these camps had Nissan Huts It would be a simple matter to put wire around it if not already there and put up extra huts. A famous event took place out there The world rifle competitions were held out there. The U S A developed a rifle to take on the Irish. The trophy of which was found at bisley England. The range was at least 1,000 yds long. That was the distance this competition was fired at, As far as I know they fired from the main land out toward the island.
You have come up trumps again. Excellent.
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Did you say that you have sent off for his pension application? I got my granddads affter almost a two year wait, but it did give a bit of information. Not much but a bit more than I thought I would get. His imprisoment should be on it as that wouls count towards his pension even though he wasn't fighting.
I am sending it off tomorrow and will be keeping fingers crossed.
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Just to again acknowledge the expertise of Private 1st Class I see on Wikipedia that the British Military occupied the entire Bull Island from 1914 to 1921.
I was over in my fathers house this evening and could not find the sharpshooters insignia but I did find my grandfather's Certificate of Discharge which I took a photo of. It shows my grandfather was in the Volunteer force (26th Battalion, just as Private 1st Class advised) from July 1940 to December 1945 (5 years and 199 days).
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Just to say that I today received an acknowledgement from Renmore to my application. The letter says that they have found a file reference but that it will take "some months" before they get back to me. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Anyone heard of a John Gannon, known as Jack gannon was imprisoned in Mount joy around 1916.
He was my grandfather's brother, their house was searched quite a few time looking for him. At the time he was in Mount Joy i have been told there was 2 executions took place in his time there, i will have to clarify the details with family members.
I also have a letter that was written and a poem he wrote i'll get this off my father and post it up.
John from Australia
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My Grandfather Michael Kavanagh was in D Company 3rd Batt. He told me may years ago about how he held up the Fire Station in Pearse St while the
Customs House burned. He relate that his orders were not to let any engines leave the station until they were given the Ok The Fire Chief begged him to let them out as Dublin was burning. Bells were going off everywhere and my GF didn't know what was burning. He only knew that his orders where not to let the fire engins leave the station. He said that he told the Fire Chief that if he tried to leave his orders were to shoot. Last year the D4 local newspaper
printed a photo of D Company. They got together every year and marched to St Patrick Church Ringsend for a special Mass. The Army would come and give them a honour guard. I can remember seeing him marching with his mates and looking so proud. Anyone else remember this annual reunion?
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Just checking back with you guys. I have been doing a bit of more research and my dreams of my warrior grandad have taken a bit of a pasting. For one thing his War of Independence medal does not have a bar which means that he was not deemed to have been involved in violent activities. I have a feeling that my grandmother may have exaggerated a little. He definitely was involved because I came across his original certificate (I'm posting it up). If it turns out that he never shot someone in cold blood I am quite happy with that. I have a suspicion that his pension file will reveal very little because he was well known to the likes of Traynor and Colley and they would probably have vouched for him without having to go into much detail on his application.
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Add my grandfather Henry C. Kennedy of the E Company, 1st Battalion. On the certificate it is hard to read the officers' names, William somebody and looks like Connell Byrne perhaps. The Brigadier's name is also hard to read.
"Charlie" as he was known met his wife Rose at one of the Cumann's in Dun Laoghaire against British Rule. They married and had 7 daughters and one son in Dublin. He was a painter by trade.
He was present when Kevin Barry was caught from under the truck. He commented some old Lady yelled "mind the child".
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Magell14.
I wouldn't go making up your mind in a snappy way. You do indeed have to be careful of proud relatives. But on the other hand I wouldn't dismiss the pension application.
My grandfather was regarded well by the likes of Traynor and probably others. He was employed as the presidents personal messenger. But he still had a dispute about his pension application. He wrote to the department giving more details of his activies. (And when you see the form you will see the lack of space that each period got.)
One other roots chatter was giving an example of how strict it was : If a volunteer had escaped capture in 1916 he was penalised on his pension as he didn't serve his time in prison. There's a point of truth to that of course but it seems quite strict.
There's a lot of us in trouble if we can't count on the pension.
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Thanks for that, Ms Smokestoomuch. I suppose I am trying to reduce my expectations so I wont be disappointed.
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Just keep an open mind. They were all human and trying to do their best. After it was all over, it was them who had to live with the consequences.
Some spoofed about their contribution, some talked down their involvement, others just told it as they remembered it and some said nothing.
It's up to each of us how we view it in retrospect.
Dara.
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I am fascinated reading all here and a little sad that we have a bit of family history but no-one to ask questions of and nothing to show
I am still waiting for the files from Renmore so live in hope for that
One other point to make was when talking recently, the man I was talking to mentioned that his uncle was in Kilmainham and he took out photographs of him. One was like a postcard with several faces on the card and it read that they were in Kilmainham giving details and year (during WoI)
When I told him he could look for information from Renmore, he told me that his uncle died in relative poverty but would not apply for a pension because "he had fought for his country not for money"
So if any of you don't find any information from pensions don't assume the family history is wrong, there may be another reason for the non-application
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Hi interesting. One reason for a person not receiving a pension is the following. If you were in receipt of state pay at the time the pension came in 1925. You were not entitled to a second payment at the same time. Example. If I was a serving soldier at the time and I applied for the pension. Icould have one or the other I could have the weeks pay every week or the pension every month ,but I could not have both. There would have been a number of men still serving up to the 1930 and were not given pensions. Can not put a number on it. Just know of one personnel case. All information was given to the Dept for to put on to there records.
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James Fitzgerald, Leo Patrick Fitzgerald and Kathleen 'Kitty' Fitzgerald, not sure of her maiden name but she was James' wife. I don't know if they were in the battalion you're talking about, but they were all very involved in the IRA.
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Nessa
They are not in the names on my picture of F company which was taken in the '40's or '50's. You should take a look at the Bureau of Military Affairs website and see did your relations make any witness statements. Our former Taoiseach Garrett Fitzgerald's family were of course very important during the 1916 Rebellion and the War of Independence. Dont know if you are related to them.
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Nessa
They are not in the names on my picture of F company which was taken in the '40's or '50's. You should take a look at the Bureau of Military Affairs website and see did your relations make any witness statements. Our former Taoiseach Garrett Fitzgerald's family were of course very important during the 1916 Rebellion and the War of Independence. Dont know if you are related to them.
Leo Fitzgerald was shot in 1922. His uniform used to be on display in Collins' Barracks, but I was there a couple of weeks ago and didn't see it (mind you, the place is huge so I might have missed it and it might be in one of the other museums, however unlikely). I'm fairly certain I'm not related to Garrett Fitzgerald, but it's a possibility. They were all pro-treaty, is it possible that's why they're not in it? Of course, it's also possible they weren't able to come for the photo or had died.
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I have been reading the thread above and I want to find out more about my Grandfather, Capt P.J. D'Alton (AKA Paddy Dalton) who was a volunteer in the Dublin Brigade of the Old IRA during the War of Independence. As far as I know (which isn't very much) he was in Fianna Eireann, then enrolled as a Volunteer circa 1919-1920. He took the anti-treaty side and fought in the Four Courts and was interned in Hare camp at the Curragh. In 1939 he entered the LDF where he held the rank of Captain. I have attached some images, and interesting documents that I have unearthed. (I will put into a second post)
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Here are some of the documents.
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One more photo and document.
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I see that a J P Dalton left a witness statement with the military archive.
Wouldn't be your granda would it?
Great photos by the way.
Its also good too to see the way they dealt with WW2 looming. My granda joined up for the emergency and he was anti treaty. I often wonder how it had been pitched to the old IRA anti treaty side.
They didn't mince there words really.
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I see that a J P Dalton left a witness statement with the military archive.
Wouldn't be your granda would it?
Great photos by the way.
Its also good too to see the way they dealt with WW2 looming. My granda joined up for the emergency and he was anti treaty. I often wonder how it had been pitched to the old IRA anti treaty side.
They didn't mince there words really.
Funny you mention the JP Dalton's witness statement, I was looking at this list this morning and was wondering is it possible that there is a typo and that is should read P.J. Dalton. I'm going to visit the archives later this week and hopefully I will get a chance to look at the document.
I think that letter about the meeting is very interesting, because it may have been the impetus for the bulk of the Anti-Treaty IRA to cast aside their differences and join the National Army. No doubt it was tough for them having to face former comrades who they had fought with and against.
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Hello,
I am finding the thread very interesting (along with the Customs house one & the Squad one as well) as I am trying to research a collection of documents, letters and a scrapbook that belonged to Vincent Byrne of E company, II batallion Dublin Brigade Old IRA. So I was wondering if anyone here may be able to help with identifying anyone from this picture ?
The writing on the back simply says 'Officers 26th Batt' (manned from Old IRA) and then beneath that 'N.A'
http://www.militaria-archive.com/temp/Irl-Research/Vinny-Byrne-Photo-61.jpg
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I believe the man on the far right of the above picture might be Bryan MacSweeney who during the War of Independence was attached to B Company 2nd Battalion Dublin Brigade IRA (wounded in the head during an ambush in Ballybough 1921), became a lieutenant in the Aircorps and resigned 1928. During the emergency was a lieutenant in 26th Battalion.
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Second from the right might be my grandfather Patrick D'Alton - but I'm not sure. You would have to compare it with these photos.
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Thanks for that.
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Here is a photo of the 26th Infantry Battalion (Old IRA)
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Hi gkenny
My Granda is in the Photo
He's the only one wear the soft hat. (sorry, don't know what those hats are called)
2nd from left back row is Michael Smyth
I don't have a clear photo of him during that period to compare but It's him alright.
Here he is again in the 1966 commemorations
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Thanks for that Ms. Smokestoomuch, I think you mentioned on another thread he was involved in the Ernie O Malley & Simon Donnelly escape which is a coincidence as Simon Donnelly is a relative of mine (a Grandmothers' cousin).
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I have the escape story told by Oscar Traynor (minster of defence at the time it was written)
I don't know where it originated but it is an 8 page account that turned up in the attic.
If your interested I'll pass it your way.
I also have part of another account from some book. Maybe you are familiar with it and can tell me what book it came from.
It seems to be the beginning of a chapter named -And Inside Kilmainham by Simon Donnellyon Page 27
As I said I've only one page of Donnelly's account and was hoping to track down what book it came from.
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Hi Ms. Smokestoomuch - I'd definitely be interested in that escape account. Re the book I have no idea what book that is from and to be honest know very little about Simon Donnelly (only recently finding out about the Irish Republican Police & Clann Na poblachta etc). My Grandfather was also a republican and I would know a lot more about his activities than Simon Donnelly who is more distantly related. I would be very interested in finding out more though. If I find any other reference to your grandfather in the Vinny Byrne photos and scrapbook/documents that I am researching I will be sure to let you know. I also plan to put them all online once they are in some sort of order.
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Hi gkenny
My Granda is in the Photo
He's the only one wear the soft hat. (sorry, don't know what those hats are called)
2nd from left back row is Michael Smyth
I don't have a clear photo of him during that period to compare but It's him alright.
Here he is again in the 1966 commemorations
Very interesting, where was Michael Smyth from? The reason I ask is that Patrick D'Alton's mother was Margaret Smyth. It might be pure coincidence, because the name is quite common - but worth a check nonetheless.
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No Problem gKenny.
As I say I don't know where or how it was published so no idea about the copyrights. Anyone that wants a look canPM me.
nneligan
Michael Smyth live at a number of addresses. In those days he was probably in Ballybough. I don't know of any Dalton connection with the family. His mother was Mary Flynn. Terrible family for hum drum names. And just to make it interesting, on every other day, Smyth is spelt with an i, just to keep me on my toes. ::)
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Its also good too to see the way they dealt with WW2 looming. My granda joined up for the emergency and he was anti treaty. I often wonder how it had been pitched to the old IRA anti treaty side.
My grandfather, a Dubliner, was also anti-Treaty, interned in 1922-3 in the Curragh Camp and was hunger strike for a while, as hundreds were at that time. He, too, joined the 26th Battalion at the outbreak of the Second World War (Emergency). Like the majority of the anti-Treatyites, and also the even bigger majority of its voters, he had supported de Valera political line after the Civil War. So with Dev in power for years, and with a new constitution, etc. I don't think it was a problem for guys to join the Irish army at that point. Even Tom Barry, who was very militant, resigned from the IRA and joined the army at that time. The rump that was stilling calling itself the IRA shamefully collaborated with the Nazis. My grandfather, in fact, later joined a branch of the British armed services. I'm pretty sure many other members of the 26th Battalion did likewise -- both to fight Hitler and to feed their families.
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Hi looking for information on a relatives grave located in Galsenevon. St Patricks section
Funeral date 11:30 am 20/10/1928 Rory (I believe he was actiually called Robert) O'Moore Vice Commandant 3rd Battalion Dublin IRA .
The stone reads it was erected by his IRA colleagues.
The grave is owned by Joesph O'Moore (not sure if he is in grave)
The grave is also shared with which I have information on:
Johanna O'Moore Funeral date 10:10am 19/11/1940
Hilda Blake Funeral date 10:00 23/3/1979
Ernest Blake Funeral date 11:15 29/11/1980
Any information on Rory (Robert) would be very welcome
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A cousin has informed me that a book that belonged to her grandfather is inscribed with his name and D COMPANY. 14th PLATOON. 26th RIFLE BATTALION. COLLINS BARRACKS. DUBLIN
Where would I get more information on this company anyone please?
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nneligan, I'd be interested in corresponding with you re Paddy D'Alton. My interest is in anyone who served in the Four Courts Garrison 1922. I am compiling a list of names and have about 65 at the moment (there were approx 180 men). My uncle was chairman of the Fourt Courts Garrison Committee from it's inseption in 1950 until late 60's. I do not have Paddy D'Alton's name but will add it and try to verify it. I expect to get the entire list fairly soon from my uncles papers.
regards from Brisbane
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Just found notification of a letter from PJ D'Alton to Tommy (Skinner) O'Rielly re a mass to commemorate deceased comrades.
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Our family have a number of Rodericks and Rory's originating from an early period of worship of Rory O'Connor.
Hi Magell14,
Would Roderick have been the name of Charles' son, and would his wife be called Dora.
If so I may have some information.
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In reply #38 on the thread the poster wrote
My Grandfather was in F Company Dublin Brigade Batt II. His name was Charlie Murphy and he was from the East Wall area. He was involved in a number of activities and was arrested and imprisoned by the British military at one point. According to my family he was involved in the Bloody Sunday shootings (the Gresham Hotel) but I have never seen any confirmation of this. He went on to serve in the CID in Oriel House. According to our family he was asked to join Oriel House by the anti-treaty side so he could supply information to them. He went to the United States in or about 1923 and returned to Ireland in 1933.
I think I have read the evidence to show that Charlie Murphy was not at the Gresham Hotel on Bloody Sunday . May Moran's book "Executed for Ireland - the Patrick Moran Story" gives a list of all 13 men involved on page 71, and it does not include Charlie Murphy. It also says that they were all D Coy men.
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I have recently received a copy of my grandfather's papers which include a list of the members of A company, 3rd Battalion. This was made for his application for pension in the 30s and looks like it was working document at the time with lots of marks and names crossed out on the list. It also gives the current address of each person at the time.
He was in the Fianna in Boland's Mill with Dev. All his papers relate to his activities during the civil war. Would love to know more about his involvement in the war of independence. His name was William Roe.
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Two of my granduncles - Peadar and Eoghan O Briain - were 4th Battalion men in 1916 (Peadar, a vice-commandant, was in Marrowbone Lane while Eoghan was in the GPO garrison; both ended up in Frongogh). Where can I find out what company/companies of the Battalion they belonged to?
Dermo
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Hi dermo
my grandfather Michael Whelan was attached to the following (Marrowbone lane)
4th Dublin City Battalion I.V.
Commandant E. Céannt
Vice-Commandant, C Brugha
Muster Point, Emerald Square, Dolphin’s Barn
Muster, 100.
He was interned in frongoch as well. Would love to find pics of the above battalion
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Genseacher
Your grandfather and my granduncle Peadar must surely have known one another. I had a look in Sean O'Mahony's book, "Frongogh: University of Revolution". Among the Dublin men in the camp it lists "Whelan, Michael, 9 Emerald Square, Dolphin's Barn". If that is your Grandad, he didn't have far to go for the 1916 muster.
Regards
Dermo
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Hi Dermo
Great news
Yes Dermo that is my grand dad Michael Whelan. Do you have any more information.
My mother seems to think that he was pretty high up in the IRB. Emerald Square is where my grand dad lived. He also had to flee to England for a while (this would have been sometime after frongoch)
Also I find it strange that the muster point was at Emerald Square where my grand dad lived. I cannot seem to get much more information on my grand dad and his role in the IRB.
Where did your grand uncle Peadar live.
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Genseacher
i don't have much more information, I'm afraid. The O'Mahony book lists six other Whelans among the Dublin men in Frongogh - maybe some are related. They are:
George Whelan, 19 Russell St
James Whelan, 17 Upper Ormond Quay
John Whelan, 50 Marlboro Street
John Whelan, 9 John's Lane
Richard Whelan, Herberton Buildings, 23 Rialto Street
William Whelan, 31 Ballybough Road
The lists of Frongogh internees are in an appendix to the O'Mahony book. The only Whelan referenced in the book's index appears in a section on the arrangements for visits to the camp. Apparently prisoners were permitted one visit per month. The visits occurred on Tuesdays and Thursdays but were restricted to 15 minutes and were held in the presence of the camp censor, who ensured there were no complaints made and no mention of camp conditions . It seems, in spite of this, the prisoners used these visits for clandestine communications, getting Tuesday visitors to stay on in the locality to brief the Thursday visitors and with camp officers picking special prisoners for the visits to ensure these communications were most effective. The Whelan mentioned in the index is on a list of such priority prisoners. Unfortunately no first name is mentioned. Perhaps it was your grandad. My granduncles both lived at 7 Bessborough Parade, Rathmines.
Dermo
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Dermo
thanks for the info
William Whelan could be a relative of my grand dad. My mother thought my grand dad Michael had a brother William (willie). Dont' know much about him. He is not on the census in 1901 or 1911 living at home in Thomas Street (1901) or Emerald Sq (1911)
Regards
Genseacher
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There was also a Joseph Whelan in Bolands Mills,I have seen his medals 1916 & War of Independence (with Bar),the family have pictures of him during the Civil War with the Free State Army & have newspaper articles of him with his old 1916 company.When I asked about his 1916 armband they dug that up too.Yet I cant find anything on him anywhere,he was also in Frongogh,he lived in the north inner city. He was given a full military funeral when he died.
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Gary
The only possibility for Joesph Whelan I can find in Sean O'Mahony's Frongogh book is "Whelan, J, Kinvara". He is among 322 Galway men listed.
The list of 1916 participants on the Irishmedals.org website has a Joseph Whelan in the GPO garrison. The only Whelan listed in Boland's Mills is Patrick Whelan.
I don't think either of these sources claims to be absolutely comprehensive.
If you haven't heard of it already, another book with extensive lists of participants in 1916 and the war of independence is "Dublin in Rebellion:A Directory 1913-1923" by Joesph E.A. Connell Jnr published in 2009 by Lilliput Press.
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Hi Dermo, I have the Dublin in Rebellion book, I was just throwing Joseph Whelan out there as an example of how some people are over looked, I would say who ever made the lists up years ago seen Joseph Whelan listed twice & assumed it was the same person. I wonder who else was missed !I must see if I can get more information on him in the future.
Gary
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Gary,
My grandfather was also in Bolands Mill. Does the photo of J. Whelan with his old comrades list their names.
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I dont know, I was only told about it.His Family have the picture, but at the moment there is a family member ill, so the last thing I want to do is bother them.I am sure the picture could be found on the Irish newspaper archive site.
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Hi
I have just posted this it is a list of IRA who took part in the Sean Russell Memorial parade 9/9/1951
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,500021.msg3568489.html#msg3568489
regards
genseacher
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Hi Does anybody know anything about Thomas McDonnell, where he came from, lived etc.
Should have mentioned he was with;
3rd BATTALION OLD I.R.A.
Dublin No. 1 Brigade - 196 Pearse Street
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Hi
I have recently seen an obituary of my granduncle Eoghan O Briain, A company, 4th Battalion old IRA. I had already known that he was in the GPO garrison and was interred in Frongogh. His brother Peadar was a vice commandant in the 4th Battalion, fighting in the Marrowbone Lane garrison in 1916 - also a Frongogh internee. I had thought neither Eoghan nor Peadar had taken part in the struggle after 1916 but from the obituary I now know that Eoghan, at least, participated in the War of Independence and was on the run during that period. As far as I know, there is no statement of his, or Peadar's, in the military archives. Eoghan died in 1964 aged 86. has anyone found any reference to him in their research on Old IRA membership?
Dermo
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Hi Dermo,you could try the army if he served in the army during the Civil war theres a chance you might get something, The Family managed to get my great uncles records (also 4th Batt) & theres lots of stuff in there from the war of Independence.My Granfathers records are gone from that period but he rejoined the Army in 1930 & lists himself as an ex british soldir,ex IRA & lists who he was with during the Civil War,you could also write to the pensions section & get his pension application , he had to list all his actions during the War of Independence in that.
Gary
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I found this on Facebook, might be of interest to someone on here .
Gary
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Gary
Thanks for the suggestion. My granduncle would have been anti-Treaty so would not have served in the army. He eventually ended up working in the Department of Education.
Do you think he would have been entitled to a pension in respect of his 1916 and War of Independence participation? If so, who should I contact to find out if he ever applied for one?
Regards
Dermo
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Hi Dermo, yes he would have got a pension, he may not have got it till 1932/33 when Fianna Fail came into power for the first time, as the cosgrave goverment had blocked some pensions for men that took the anti treaty side.
Pensions Dept,
Department of Defence,
Áras an tSáile,
Renmore,
Galway
Or you could google a phone number & give then a ring I am sure they will help you out.
Gary
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I have received details from pension records for two anti-treaty people
Both were denied pensions but their records were still available
The staff in Galway were very helpful they were able to tell quite quickly if there were records but it took just over a year to receive the photocopied files
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Gary and Myluck
Thanks for the information. I will follow it up.
Regards
Dermo
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Hi My Luck, if you don't mind me asking, what detail was in the pension records.I have a Copy of my great uncles officer grant form, in which he details battalions etc also a very brief description of his actions in the war of independence.I have heard the pension stuff goes into a bit more detail ie people they where with when they did there actions ?
Gary
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What I received was a copy of each form filled out and any correspondence received or sent
Unfortunately my people were not very descriptive and therefore filled in the forms with statements such as "undertook duties as directed" etc. However they did need to give names of locations and people and they gave details of where they were and briefly what they did.
I have spoken to others more fortunate where the documents gave very detailed descriptions of all their activities.
The correspondence was poignant as one letter was signed "please believe in me" They were a husband and wife and neither received a pension. One died in 1947 disillusioned with the world by all accounts; his wife died in 1960 in relatively poor circumstances feeling all she did for the country was in vain
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My Luck thats seems to have been the attitude all round, My late great uncle used to say to his wife "No Country is worth dying for" & he told my granmother that he would never his sons get involved in anything like he did, his exact words where " I would break there bloody legs if they did what I did" .One thing I noticed was that alot of the men who where officers in the war of independence & civil war ended up in corporation houses around the Crumlin / Driminagh area, so they would not have been that well off. I am hoping we get something new from the pension dept,The forms I have here are army ones & he puts in as much as he can I noticed.I also have all his CO`s from each battalion/ section he was in as refs which is handy.
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It dawned on me reading the pension application form, that each section for each period was fill in with no space left for any other activities. My grandfather was by no means full time as a volunteer and yet he was running out of room on that form.
There's a chance that volunteers just put down the most important activities they were involved with. And at that, because of the lack of space on the form they ended up summarising way to much.
My Granda has "involved in Operation Nov. 21st." That does my head in.
One of the most violent days in our history, and I haven't a clue what he was up to.
He had to appeal the grade they gave him on the pension. He was successful but I'd say it was something that disillusioned him somewhat.
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I can relate:
I have "followed orders of..." "trained troops" etc.
What orders, WHO??
However I did find out that the wife was in Manchester when Dev escaped and according to her brief descriptions she could have been involved. She also stated she was in Belfast. I ahd only known her to have been in Kilkenny and Dublin. She also referred to a letter she was waiting for from New York that would help her case but it was not on the file. I don't know if it was ever received or if it was missed filed as there were items in her file that were not hers. As it happened I knew who the other lady was and sorted it out with the Pensions Office.
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There was an old IRA tradition of never admit to a killing & never say who did a killing. John Pinkman mentions it in his book.In the form I have here he mentions the 3rd engineers & raids for arms? again who where the 3rd Engineers & what raids did they do? I put a post up here & no one seems to know anything about them :( . Also he calls the Squad the GHQ Guard I know the Dublin Guard was there later name. Was there not supposed to be a letter that went into the pension Dept that states all actions ? then they sent you the form ?
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My grand uncle Patrick O'Rourke was in a unit if thats the right term in south County Dublin. Any ideas how I go about finding more information on him. I know from my father who has his medals that he refused the pension like so many others but are the records of what his unit was inolved in. While born in Carlow he lived and worked in the Killiney/Shankill area. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Darren
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My great uncle was part of the forgotten ten
http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/October11/11forg.html
Thomas Bryan
Executed 14 March 1921
Thomas Bryan was an electrician and lived in Dublin. He married just four months before his arrest. A member of the ASU, he too was arrested after the abortive 'Drumcondra Ambush'.
Thomas had previously been imprisoned for republican activities and had been transferred from Mountjoy to Dundalk following Thomas Ashe's death in 1917. The POWs went on hunger strike and were later released in November 1917.
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IM SORRY IF THIS SOUNDS STUPID, IVE GOOGLED BUT NOT GETTING THE COMPLETE MEAING OF THE LETTERS A.S.U
can someone explain what it actually stands for.
my great uncle was a member, his name was Thomas Bryan and he was one of the forgotten 10.
my grandmother is passed away now and nobody knows anything, actually she never even told our family about this until the state funerals and refused to speak of it any further.
does anyone know if there were any photos taken or where i can find out exactly what he did and how he fought.
thanks in advance
Karen
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Karen
ASU stands for Active Service Unit. I think it meant that the members were given financial support.
Dermo
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thanks dermo, i wiki'd the forgotten ten and it gave a photo aswell with a nice bit of info, am trying to do my family tree so checked the census and found a lot more info.
would love to see other pics too and try to find out exactly where he ranked ect.
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The ASU where the active service unit & they where paid along side the squad who they worked alot with.There main job was to cause as much trouble for the british as possible,ambushes ect where there main job anything that involved killing the ememy & making life as hard as possible for them.KarenP you might have to try a few people here or start a topic on your Great Uncle somebody may have come across him in there research, I just remembered there is a video on youtube I think called the forgotten ten & that should give you some information on him.
Gary
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thank you gary,
i found out loads last nite about the last day of his life and how he nearly escaped from mountjoy,if he and 4 others hadnt insulted a prison guard they wouldnt have been put into different cells and would have been there when the word was given that their escape was "on", and would have their freedom. seems he was meant to die.
i have also found out there is a possible family member still alive, will try to find him, my dad remembers been given a phone number of his uncle who seemingly has a lot of info and the like,so am about to root through the phonebook and hope we find him.
i think i will start a thread myself,good idea.
thanks again gary
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hi i was interested in finding out some information on the dublin no1 brigade 196 pearse street - i saw the list from sandlotball of 46 men and i was very intersted to see that there was two people -
dick hyland and john hyland - i think the second one john hyland was my grandfather - it has only now
come to light that we discovered that my grandfather joined the irish army in 1919 - we have received some documentation about him but on his record it showed that when he joined in 1919 he had been
in the army for 3 years (we think that may have been the time from the 1916 uprising in dublin) we have seen his army record and pay details - nobody ever knew he was in the irish army - my father never knew anything about this .
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Gary,
My grandfather was also in Bolands Mill. Does the photo of J. Whelan with his old comrades list their names.
Hi Gaisteach, this is going to sound strange, I am trying to find out as much about J.Whelan as I can, I was told his name was Joseph as everyone called him Joe, Turns out as I found out today his real name was John Whelan, now also with the stuff I was given by the family was a picture of the ICA that Johns late Daughter picked him out of. So thats the picture the family told me they had of him & his unit.There is a John Whelan listed as ICA in the Dublin in Rebellion Book with the Stephens Green Garrison, so maybe he was transfared during the week to Bolands ? I dont know.John Whelan was given the 1916 medal & the WOI (with bar) medal & marched in the anniversary march as I have his 1916 armband here.
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removed
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Regarding my above post, i was wondering if i might impose upon people to visit the "3rd Battalion, Fingal Brigade & Leixlip Flying Column" thread as i would be very interested to receive your input and feedback.
Regarding my post above, i was wondering if anyone had any information on any of the names of the referees or know if they left witness statements (in Australia, so I can't easily check that myself)?
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All the withness statement refs are online, & rumour has it it the pension stuff will be online soon ;)
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All the withness statement refs are online, & rumour has it it the pension stuff will be online soon ;)
Really? Would you have a link to them?
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how did you get the information as i would like to get it for my great uncle thomas bryan who was hung in 1921 in mountjoy
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As has been said only the index of WS is available at the moment. In other words just a list of the men who actually made Witness Statements
Click for index (http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/documents/The%20Bureau%20of%20Military%20History1913-1921%20Index%20to%20Contributors.pdf)
Obviously not everyone made a WS, so if your man did not, then you will not get it. The statements were made a considerable time after the events, so a man who died in 1920s would not have made one. However if you know who his companions were, then look at their statement and see if there is a mention
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Kristof thats the link you need,If who your searching for did not make a statement ,they might be mentioned by other people who served in the same battalion or company as the person your researching.
Karyn your out of luck withThomas Bryan as he would not have made a pension application, your only hope is if he is mentioned in a withness statement made by someone else.
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Thanks for that list, invaluable.
I was wondering if I might be able to impose upon the goodness of the forum and see if there is anyone who already has these witness statements or would be able to access them for me? Being in Australia makes accessing research materials a little hard sometimes. The ones I’m interested in would be:
Names that are mentioned on Francis Brennan’s pension application:
WS1446 - Thomas Markey, Commandant Fingal Frigade;
WS511 - Michael Lynch, OC Fingal Brigade;
WS1398 - Michael Rock, Commandant, IRA, Fingal;
Names connected with 1921 attempt to tunnel into Mountjoy:
WS1052 - Sean MacEntee, Senior Officer IV and IRA
WS1535 - Hugh Early, Commandant IRA
WS1754 - Mrs Tom Barry
WS1153/WS1154 - Sean O’Neill, Lieutenant, Dublin IRA
Names connected to Fingal Brigade:
WS503 - James Cahill;
WS1438 - Christopher Moran; member Fingal Brigade;
WS147 - Bernard McAllister, Captain, Officer IV and IRA, Fingal Brigade;
WS1494 - Michael McAllister, member IV and IRA, Fingal Brigade;
WS1399 - Thomas Peppard, Intelligence Officer, Fingal Brigade
WS1436 - Walter Brown, Officer, IRA, Fingal;
WS148/WS1395 - James Crenegan, member IV Fingal; Battalion Adjutant, Fingal;
WS1043 - Joseph Lawless, Member IV Fingal, Officer IRA Dublin;
I know, this is a huge list and a pretty big ask but I’d be particularly happy to get a copy of the top three as they were Francis’ commanding officers. In fact Thomas Markey was a Finglas man as well, from a big dairy family; they both lived on the North Road, Finglas.
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Hi Kristof
Glad to see you survived the flood.
I came across the raid on the Aerodrome before when I was looking up Dick McKee. It was one of the activities that I could find that McKee was actually involved in rather than just organising.
He was living in Finglas too though he became next in line to Collins.
It was a successful raid, 75 Rifles, Bayonets, 6,000 rounds and not a shot fired during it.
McKee also attended the Coleman Funeral. It was a military style funeral and they had to escape through the back gate of Glasnevin cemetery.
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Hi Ms.Smokes ;)
Yes, survived the floods, just cut off in our valley for a week or so, but we fared very well compared to so many others.
One of the details i was going to look into from Francis' pension application was, just who was Frank Coleman?
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I hope I didn't jump the gun but I think it's really Richard Coleman.
http://swordsdublin.net/richard_coleman.html
I had taken notes but they are in disarray now. So I was thinking you had the name right and I had made an error.
Looking at it now I'm still inclined to believe that the funeral was for Richard Coleman. He seems important enough to merit taking the risk of staging a military funeral.
But also the time period he has the funeral down for is wrong for Richard.
But on the other hand I would expect people to make errors of dates or names if they were trying to remember events more than 10yrs after.
Maybe someone out there can set us straight.
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Hi Ms.Smokes,
Yes, i believe that you are probably right, Francis probably meant Richard Coleman and got the date wrong as well. He was filling in his pension application 17 years later and perhaps misremembered events and time frames.
Unless of course there really was a Frank Coleman? Anyone?
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Photo of Annual Reunion (1952) of C Coy 1st batt (old IRA) possible taken at the Customs House Dublin. Might be of interest to someone?
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I found this on Facebook, might be of interest to someone on here .
Gary
Hi Gary, Just found this site yesterday . doing a bit of research myself, your photo shows one of my uncles his name is Gerry Morrissey, he was one of four brothers in 26th Coy.
The others were, Patrick, Daniel(Sonny) and William all from Mount Street, Powers Court.
I have a photo of the take over of Beggars Bush Barracks in 1922 which I attach , it is a large Pantograph so detail will be difficult to see but if anyone is interested send a PM.
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Welcome to RootsChat
You need to have three posts to have full access to the PM system.. a couple more replies to this thread and you'll be activated.
p.s. I'd love to see a large version of the photo
Dublin Moderator
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Hi Patrick,
Welcome to Rootschat.
What a great photo to have, I would be very interested in this photo as my granddad was in the Dublin Gaurds 1st Battalion. When he left in 1924 he was Coy Sergeant Major. Don't know how long he held that rank for, family think he was one from the start.
Will PM you when you have full access.
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Found this while searching for other stuff; wonder if it might be of interest to someone?
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Hi,
My Dad, Patrick Morrissey, died in 1942 and his certificate is attached.
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Hi Thanks for welcome,
We can arrange a viewing sometime to suit. I live in Athlone but do travel to Dublin and perhaps we can meet .
In the meantime I have a list which I belive are the names of the people in the photo. perhap the forum can confirm some of them?
p.s. I'd love to see a large version of the photo
Dublin Moderator
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I was wondering if anyone could tell me if it was common for those Old IRA who were anti-treaty to be denied a pension in later years?
I only ask because of Francis Brennan's pension application (i posted a transcript of it a month or two back). Tracing the events that Francis was involved in during the war of independence it is clear that he was an active member of a unit of the Fingal Brigade, that he was engaged in ambushes, arms raids, burning of coast guard stations, RIC barracks and so on. However, he was a republican and was also later engaged in ambushes of Free State troops, sabotage of railway lines and bridges, attacks on free state barracks and so on. After capture he was sentanced to death, which was later commuted to 7 years. He was imprisoned in Kilmainham, then Mountjoy and finally Tintown 2 before being released in 1924.
So, he applied for a pension in 1935 and it took until 1940 for them to get back to him and reject his application. So in 1948 he applied for a medal, but because he had been refused a pension he couldn't apply for a medal with the bar signifying active service. So the medal (with no bar) was granted in 1950. He died in 1955.
I know for sure that another member of his republican unit applied for a pension but was also rejected. Was this the policy of the then irish government, to reject the pension applications of anti-treaty fighteres? Can anyone fill in more information about this?
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Hi Patrick, what a great picture, I would be very interested in seeing it in better detail & the list of names thats with it, I am interested in it for 2 reasons, one is I had 2 family members in the army around that time, Also I have set up a group on Facebook & I am posting as many pictures that I can find of people who took part in the burning of the custom house.
Kristof, my under standing of the pensions was that in the early days that only men who sided with the Free state got pensions, then in 1932 Fianna Fail got into power & addressed that ! so everyone got them that could prove they took part in actions (I.e they used a gun at some point) or where in prision for there actions / membership. I know the men had to have a lot of refs to prove what they did.
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Hi Gary,
We can arange a viewing at some point. I live in Athlone but do travel to Dubline etc. Let me know where you are.
The list of names is in the Tif file on a previous posting
Pat
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Gaisgeach,
I have also just received some papers relating to my grandfather who was also a member of A coy 3rd battalion and was in Boland's mill. His name was Seamus Murray and I have a partial list of members of the garrison with hand written notes on who is living and dead . William Roe is noted to have died on 20 th June 1976
Would you be willing to share your list with me
Paul
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Hi Patrick, I did not see the list, thats very interesting, there is some names there that at that time where just lower ranks that ended up as Captains ,commandants etc, I see Mick Dunne is there, he was killed in Kerry by a trap mine which lead to the Dublin Guard going mad & the whole ballysheedy thing.Have you got access to a scanner Patrick ?
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Kristof, my under standing of the pensions was that in the early days that only men who sided with the Free state got pensions, then in 1932 Fianna Fail got into power & addressed that ! so everyone got them that could prove they took part in actions (I.e they used a gun at some point) or where in prision for there actions / membership. I know the men had to have a lot of refs to prove what they did.
Gary, that was my understanding as well, that when Fianna Fail got in that they were fairer in their pensions policy. That's what i don't understand about Francis' application; he was involved in several actions during the anglo-irish war including the raid on the Collinstown Aerodrome. He had some pretty good referees, all well known men with proven active service. I know for certain that another member (William Wyse) of Francis' civil war flying column applied at the same time (1935) as Francis and was also rejected. This other member had also been very active during the anglo-irish war, was in some of the same units as Francis and had the same referees.
I wonder what it was that led the pensions board to reject to reject Francis and William's applications?
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Kristof, I dont know, the whole thing seems very strange.The only pension forms I have ever seen where my great uncles,his where the very early ones 1924/25. He did not have to list actions on the pension stuff (but did on Army forms for demob grant ) all he listed was his units & C/O`s plus refs in each case.Then he had to attend an interview board & they left him for months before he got his pension, I have copies of letters here that he wrote asking for his pension, very sad really.
Gary
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was my understanding as well, that when Fianna Fail got in that they were fairer in their pensions policy.
I am commenting here has someone from Northern Ireland, who has no axe to grind either way on your political parties.
However I would say that there is a difference in the perception today of what happened and the reality what actually happened, not only with pensions but with many of the events during the War of Independence and with the Civil War.
It may just be that nobody has really looked into the pension policies of both parties over the whole period. Until one gets an independent view it is very difficult to know if one was "fairer" than another.
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I think most of us here try to have an independent view Corisande, its not youtube where all the children come out to play & ambush every video on Irish history. The facts are clear on pensions that the Fine Gael goverment of the 20`s did not give anti treaty men pensions & that the Fianna Fail Goverment of the 30`s tried to address it & gave some of them pensions.One thing that is clear from reading my great uncles papers is they had to jump thru hoops & beg for it.
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from my basic research I agree I have copies of some letters written begging (applying) for pensions from relatives that were on the verge of eviction due to their dimenished circumstances.
The most poignant letter I've mentioned on this forum before; it was one of many sent over a 15 year period and ended with the words "please believe in me" but unfortunately they didn't
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There is very interesting collection of letters in the National Archive in Bishop’s Street relating to various appeals to the Taoiseach relating to Army Pensions. While researching pension applications I found that political persuasion had no bearing on weather the pension was granted or not, the pensions board had a set of criteria which had to be met (this was adhered to rigorously for every application) and if the applicant met the criteria they got the pension.
According to the pension’s board records there were nearly 150,000 applications for pensions of which about 10 percent were granted, it is also worth noting that about 1500 medals with COMRAC bar were awarded. With 9 out of every 10 applicants being refused a pension it is understandable why you hear so many stories of pensions being refused to what appeared to be deserving causes.
There are other interesting patterns shown in the pension applications. Pensions were given to members of Flying Columns, members of Active Service Unites rarely succeeded in getting a pension. The vast majority of applications from Anti Treaty IRA were received after the 1934 Army Pensions Act (Dev came into power in 1932). Many Anti Treaty refused to apply for a pension from the Free State Government, if you every get a chance to read the files in Bishop’s Street there are some very interesting letters to Dev relating to this, there is a letter from a woman whose husband refused to apply for a pension from the Free State Government and she goes on to complain they were finding it hard to survive on his British Army pension.
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we have one relative who was in Kilmainham Jail and there is a postcard photo of him there He is reputed to have said that he fought for his country not for a pension and never applied for a penions and died in relative poverty
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Sir Roger Casement - he who was hanged for his part in raising the Irish Brigade and in landing German arms before Easter Rising - said
"There is no living in being an Irish patriot"
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My great uncle said " No Country is worth dying for" in his later years, then again if one country did not invade another, no one would ever have to die for there country . Greed, suppression & land grabbing are terrible things.
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According to the pension’s board records there were nearly 150,000 applications for pensions of which about 10 percent were granted, it is also worth noting that about 1500 medals with COMRAC bar were awarded. With 9 out of every 10 applicants being refused a pension it is understandable why you hear so many stories of pensions being refused to what appeared to be deserving causes.
Thanks for that; really interesting. I had no idea that the rate was so low. Naively i thought that you either qualified or you didn't and that was the end of it. Well, that puts it into context now; maybe it wasn't that there was discrimination based upon Francis being in an anti-treaty unit, it was just that he was in the 90% of people who applied that didn't succeed. On the rejection papers for Francis it says that he wasn't a person to whom the act (the 1934 Act) applied and there is a "code" in brackets after it "R21". Does anyone know what that means (if anything)?
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Its weird the way they did the pensions,In My great uncles case, they gave him no service from 1917 till 1919, they awarded 2 years service for a one year period from 1921-1922, they awarded him 2 years service for 9 months during the civil war, with other bits & bobs he got a 7 years service pension. It seems he got nothing for his years in C coy 4th batt & a little for his service in the engineers, but for extra for ASU & Squad service & extra for civil war service !
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sorry if this address is all ready on: http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com
this site is worth a visit, but you all have put a lot of good photo roots chat room
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Thanks for that; really interesting. I had no idea that the rate was so low. Naively i thought that you either qualified or you didn't and that was the end of it. Well, that puts it into context now; maybe it wasn't that there was discrimination based upon Francis being in an anti-treaty unit, it was just that he was in the 90% of people who applied that didn't succeed. On the rejection papers for Francis it says that he wasn't a person to whom the act (the 1934 Act) applied and there is a "code" in brackets after it "R21". Does anyone know what that means (if anything)?
You can look up all the Army Pension Acts, I think they are all on line now, it is not what you would call a right riveting read but if you wade through them you might find exactly what R21 is. It was very much a case of you qualified or you didn’t but if you read all the acts from 1924 up to 1934 it was difficult to know if you qualified or not, from some of the applications I have read I think people applied in hope rather than any certain knowledge that they did qualify.
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Its weird the way they did the pensions,In My great uncles case, they gave him no service from 1917 till 1919, they awarded 2 years service for a one year period from 1921-1922, they awarded him 2 years service for 9 months during the civil war, with other bits & bobs he got a 7 years service pension. It seems he got nothing for his years in C coy 4th batt & a little for his service in the engineers, but for extra for ASU & Squad service & extra for civil war service !
The years service awarded were for calculating what percentage of a pension you great uncle would get so he could be awarded more years than he actually served for a particular period. I think the period for a full pension was 35 years so you’re relative would have got one fifth of a pension for his seven years service. You got more years for pension purposes if you served in time of combat so he would have got extra years for his time with the Squad and the Civil War and so on. As far as I can remember 1917 and 1918 had no qualifying periods.
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Hi gary, Yes I do have a scanner. What do you need?
Pat
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Does Any one out there know how i go about finding out about a distant relative who is dead now by the name of Augustine Dooley (Gus) he was supposedly either involved in the rising or the civil war or maybe both he was in the old IRA as far as i know and lived across the road from bolands mills at the time of the rising I seen his medal years ago and as far as i can remember it looks like the commerative rising medal they gave out in 1941 this is all the info i have sorry any info at all would be great
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This is a great thread, I have learned so much, explains why my grand-daa was heard of, he was anti-treaty, I wonder how many of their applications got lost in the post?
Gary, can't believe I stumbled accross someone who had someone in C Coy the 4th Batt. This is the one John Nolan, my grand-dad was in and later the 26 Battalion (during the emergency). Have you any info on the men in C COy, 4th Batt, I'd be really appreciative if you could tell me anything?
Regards
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Sorry that should have been 'wasn't' heard of not 'was'!
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Hi, MY Great Uncle was in C coy 4th Battalion,The best thing to do if your looking for informaion on them is look at withness statements from men who served in that Coy.Jim Harpur is one & your in luck his withness statement is online. just a snippet about C Coy heres the link. http://www.peteconnolly.co.uk/blog/wordpress/jim-harpurs-recollections/jim-harpurs-recollections-part-1/
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Thanks for that Link gary absolutly fascinating recollection unfortunatly gussy dooley wasnt mentioned in it will keep plugging away if you can think of anything else please let me know
troy
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Hi Troy, if Gus got a medal then he must have got or applied for a pension, fighting in 1916 for the full week counted as four years service !Rumopur has it that most of the pension stuff from 1916 will be online soon, but with all the cut backs we might not be able to get copys of apllications etc soon.
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Gary
Thanks for the link on jim harpur really enjoyed reading it
Regards
Genseacher
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Thanks Gensearcher, the best part about it is he mentions my Great Uncle in the statement (Igoe Gang) also it was another link to my Great Uncle being in the Squad, I have now confirmed it with his Army & Pension records.
Gary
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Sorry it took me so long to reply Gary. Thank you for the link, I had been in contact with Pete before as regards te special branch records which we both had an interest in. My grand-dads brother was named in them.
I hadn't read that witness statement though so was delighted to do so. I have been in military archives and read a few of the men's statements, Seamus Murphy is one that stuck out in my mind, and if my memory serves me correctly John Joyce was the other, fascinating reading.
Thanks for putting up the link.
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Hi Mrswomans, JV Joyce was the captain of C Coy 4th Batt ! I think there was a later Captain I will have to check & get back to you on that !
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I'll have to check grand-dads letter but I'm sure he said John Joyce was his captain from 1917.
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In 1916 he was in Marrowbone Lane under Capt. Seumas Murphy. On the reformation of the IRA in 1917, he joined up again with his old Co, C, 4th Battalion, Dublin Brigade, under Capt John Joyce.
He also mentions a Quarter Master Merriman, he state he remained in the Co up to the Truce under Capt. Long.
And I'm sure not unsual for a lot of the men he states, 'as a result o my activities and subsequent imprisonment I lost my employment.'
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ms smokestoomuch, could you let me know what is written about Patrick Duffy in the booklet by Jimmy Wren you mentioned
Good luck
CSM
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Our family have a number of Rodericks and Rory's originating from an early period of worship of Rory O'Connor.
Hi Magell14,
Would Roderick have been the name of Charles' son, and would his wife be called Dora.
If so I may have some information.
Hi there, I am just seeing this now. Yes you have the family. Roderick is my father. I am still awaiting the docs from Renmore.
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Hi do you have any ridgeway s on your list
please
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Hi there, I am just seeing this now. Yes you have the family. Roderick is my father. I am still awaiting the docs from Renmore.
Hi Magell14,
My grandfather and Charlie were brothers. I’ve some anecdotes about Charlie passed on to me by his sister and also a few photographs.
Regarding your original enquiry about the Gresham I’ve no detail.
I believe that Charlie while working for CID was called as a witness at the inquest into the killing of
• Edwin Hughes(19),
• Brendan Holohan(18),
• Joseph Rogers(16),
7 October 1922. The three Fianna boys were affixing republican posters on a wall at Clonliffe road when they were arrested by Charlie Dalton (whom Charles Murphy recognised).
If you PM your email address I’ll send you copies of the Photographs I have.
Regards,
PCm
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Hi Old IRA Dublin Brigade B Company 3rd Battalion. The list is in 4 parts this is the first one. Does any relative recognise any name.
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Hi Old IRA Dublin Brigade B Company 3rd Battalion. The list is in 4 parts this is the first one. Does any relative recognise any name.
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That's an interesting photo, 2nd from left in the back row is my grandfather Seamus(JJ) Brennan and just in front of him to the left is his wife Veronica.
Photo of Annual Reunion (1952) of C Coy 1st batt (old IRA) possible taken at the Customs House Dublin. Might be of interest to someone?
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Hi
Sinn Fein Rebellion Handbook, Easter 1916
(its seems to be a list of prisoners transferred from Richmond barracks to knutsford)
my granddad is listed as M Whelan
The link is at the end of this post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,517448.msg3807375.html#msg3807375
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi
This is a much better link to the Sinn Fein Rebellion handbook, Easter, 1916
You can download it to your computer or read it online brillant read.
http://www.archive.org/details/sinnfeinrebellio00dubl
Regards
Genseacher
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I had a look at that . Its a very informative book and found my Grandfather listed, but also found a section on his brother in law, Thomas Allen who was wounded at the Four Courts and later died.
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old IRA Dublin Brigade 3rd Battalion "B" Company
list 2
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Hi, new to this - terrific reading & amazed at the information many of you have obtained.
I saw the reference to a John Joyce & was wondering if this is the same person as a Col John Joyce who, with an M Mc Dunphy, headed up the gathering of witness statements in the mid 50s.
My father was seconded to the Burea of Military History during this time & while researching his life, I was fascinated by how professional the training was for the taking of these statements. If anybody is looking for information on this, let me know & I'll see if I can help.
Needless to say, like many of the men he didn't make a statement himself! His name was John (Jack) Grace & he was in B Co. 2nd Battallion - imprisoned in Kilmainham. If anybody comes across the name, would really love to hear about it.
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Welcome to the site Liam, a Seamus Grace made a witness statement and a James Grace was involved in the 1916 Uprising, could any of these be related to your family.
Keep up the research
Good luck
CSM
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old IRA Dublin Brigade 3rd Battalion "B" Company
list 2
old IRA Dublin Brigade list 3 3rd Battalion B Company
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old IRA Dublin Brigade 3rd Battalion "B" Company
list 2
old IRA Dublin Brigade list 3 3rd Battalion B Company
Old IRA Dublin Brigade 3rd Battalion B Company list 4
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Thanks CSM. My father was too young to have been involved in 1916 - he was just 18 at time of Custom House so unlikely to have figured in much action before then - there was a reference in his pension application to having been involved in the "Whitehall attack" but have never been able to identify exactly which event this was. I have checked the statements of most of the others who were involved in the Dublin Brigade but without any luck..
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Morning Liam, there is a plaque in a wall, outside a corporation house in Yellow Road, Whitehall, dedicated to a Volunteer, I have no idea who it is or why it is there, perhaps this relates to the reference in your fathers pension application, maybe someone on this site could help and explain the story behind the plaque.
If I come across any other information, I will let you know.
CSM
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Liam, I wasn't referring to your father but asking if you have checked if he had any brothers or family that could have been involved in the 1916 Uprising or made a W.S.
Regarding the young age of your father, 18 years old , that was not unusual, the likes of Charley Dalton and Vinnie Byrne come to mind.
The Fianna Eireann, was the male youth movement, run on the same lines as the Volunteers, they were members of the Dublin Brigade, acted as spies, took messages, some as young as 11 years old, when they were old enough they moved up to the main Volunteers, staying with the same Companies and Battalions, one of my own relatives put down on his pension application that he was a" boy Sargeant in E.CO.2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade"
CSM"
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(http://content.screencast.com/users/ClaytonViolin/folders/photos/media/91bb86b7-99a1-43b0-9351-714397a7c1b8/army.JPG)
Looking for names for commemoration of the 100th anniversary.
Old photos and/or other snippets of info will make for a wonderful remembrance day for our old army veterans because a mention would show that we continue to honour and respect their bravery, courage and dedication for Ireland.
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Great photo Alphonsus, do you have any further information on when and where it was taken, the uniforms look like they are of the Free State Army.
CSM
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Thanks CSM - will certainly check out that plaque when next in dublin.
On a slightly un-related matter, I was trying to find out if there was any ceremony planned for the 90th anniversary of the burning of the Custom House later this month. Have written to a number of Govt email contacts but got no response.
Would anybody be aware if anything is planned?
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Our family have a number of Rodericks and Rory's originating from an early period of worship of Rory O'Connor.
Hi Magell14,
Would Roderick have been the name of Charles' son, and would his wife be called Dora.
If so I may have some information.
Hi there, I am just seeing this now. Yes you have the family. Roderick is my father. I am still awaiting the docs from Renmore.
Hi folks,
Just thought I'd post to let you know that I received the papers from Renmore in relation to My grandfather's application for a pension. He doesn't go into too much detail about his activities. He refers to all the main key events, joining in 1917, armed raids, internment by the British and service as a detective in the dreaded Oriel House (but interestingly also mentions that he was acting as an intelligence officer for the anti-treaty IRA while he was there). He made his application for the pension first in 1925 from the US where he was then living but was turned down (I suspect something to do with his anti-treaty stance but possibly not being able to put his evidence together from that distance). He reapplied in 1935 and only got a hearing and was approved for the pension in the early '50's. Among the few details were that he kept a revolver, rifle and several hundred rounds of ammunition in his house, that he helped Roderick O'Connor escape from the British internment camp, also that he was involved in moving McKee and Clancy's bodies to Marlborough Street. Nothing about Bloody Sunday.
The people he puts down as his references seem to be all from F Company 2nd Batt., many of them well known people and at least one a founding member of the Squad, Jim Slattery.
Thanks to Rootschat members for your help. Looks like I have some more work to do.
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Morning Liam, there is a plaque in a wall, outside a corporation house in Yellow Road, Whitehall, dedicated to a Volunteer, I have no idea who it is or why it is there, perhaps this relates to the reference in your fathers pension application, maybe someone on this site could help and explain the story behind the plaque.
If I come across any other information, I will let you know.
CSM
Hi CSM; like Liam, I'm new and hope I'm not posting out of order here!
I read about the Plaque in Yellow Road recently, on Dublin.ie/forum, and here is a snippet..
25 August 1922. One of the most despicable murders of Republicans took place at Whitehall on this date. Alfie(Leo) Colley(18), Parnell Street, and Sean Cole(17), Buckingham Street, were two of the most senior Fianna officers in the Dublin Brigade of Fianna Éireann. They were picked up at Newcomen Bridge, North Strand, on their way home from an officers meeting at Marino. A witness stated that their abductors were wearing trench coats over Free State Army officers uniforms. Witnesses also saw them being shot dead at 'The Thatch', Pucks Lane, (Now Yellow Road), Whitehall, Dublin. Popular opinion at the time was that these killings were carried out as a reprisal for the death of Michael Collins earlier that week. (National newspapers reporting incident and inquest 27&28 August 1922)
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Welcome to the site cParnell and thanks for that information, I wonder if anyone on the site lives near to Yellow Road could check if the plaque is dedicated to those 2 unfortunate young men.
CSM
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Thanks for that CSM,
Here is a photo with credit to Mountallant (Joe) on the Dublin.ie forum
CP
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Thanks for posting that up cParnell, the plaque must have been put into the wall when the Corporation was building the estate as a mark of respect. Can you or anybody else translate the Irish engraving that is on the plaque?
CSM
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Hi, As a child going to the C B S Marino. I would travel down Collins Ave to Gracepark Rd.Turning right and heading down Gracepark Rd Between 50 to a 100 yards on the right hand side was what I would say was a small grave stone against the wall. I cannot remember what was on it . As far as I can remember it was to these two men.
The Fianna Fail party had a cummon in the area call the colley/ cole cummon. Called after these men. Private 1st class.
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Thank you for that Private 1st class, its a sad story about the two young men, why they were singled out we will probably never know, the Civil War with friend and brother alike fighting against each other when they were all fighting for one another before breaks my heart.
CSM
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Hi, Some names from the 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade,
Lt James Bird, Capt Seamus Brogan, Staff-Capt Thomas Cullen, (F.R.I.A.I.), Capt Henry O'Farrell, Lt Frank Gallagher Lt Liam Lucas, Ned Devitt, Bob O'Donnell, Peter Keating George Hogan, Sean McCluskey, Stephen Coates,Jimmy Keegan, Billy Redmond, Jim Boyce, Jimmy Maher, Billy Charles, Jim Kinsella, Tom Burke, Paddy roberts, John Fynes, Jim (Kruger) Smithers . Mick White, F ( bONER) Lawor, Sean Kavanagh, Jim Boyce, Jack O'Connell, Christy Grimes, Sean Breen, Leo Purcell, Sean Harpur, Frank Birmingham, Ned Davitt. Arthur O'Sullivan, Paddy Hardiman, from Private 1st class..
I believe Sean McCluskey is my Great Grandfather on my mothers side. If anyone can add any information relating to him please let me know.
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My wife's maternal grand uncle, John Joseph O'Reilly (1896-1945) served in the IRA in Dublin. His death notices said that he was in Q Company, Dublin IRA. His army service record in the Miltary Archives states that he was in "Q Company (Cross Channel Boats)". Like his father before him, he was a merchant sailor and at the time of his service he lived in Upper Oriel Street. Apparently he was employed by Michael murphy Ltd and one of the boats he served on was the SS Finola. Does anybody posting here know anything about Q company? Was it comprised only of sailors and others working in Dublin Port? What was its primary function? My father-in-law believes that his Uncles job was to smuggle in arms and other weaponry. After the Free State was set up he was appointed to the Quarter Masters Depot in Island Bridge Barracks. He was awarded a Military pension in the late 1930's.
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You may not like this as a suggestion, but is it possible that he was working for the British and supplying the IRA with information
Q coy Auxiliaries were their Maritime Branch, and they were based at London & North West Hotel. J O'Reilly is too difficult a name to research, but there was a J O'Reilly based in Dublin who worked for the Auxiliaries as a driver.
It would be a remarkable coincidence if IRA had a Q coy also working in boats.
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Hello John MB, if you go to my post ref - looking for members of "E" Co. 2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, page 3 it explains the different Battalions and Companies. and how they were set up.
I have never come across a "Q" Co. in the Dublin Brigade, I would suggest you check the pension details again but I stand to be corrected if you have uncovered something new that hasn't been covered or mentioned in the history or research books, and if there was such a Company it sounds very interesting. Let me know how you get on.
CSM
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Corisande, I'd be amazed if he was working for the British particularly given that his step father, James Cunningham, (1874-1948), served in Jacobs Biscuit factory, was apparently interned in Frongoch and was also awarded a Military Service Pension in the 1930s. I can't believe that James wouldn't have smelled a rat regarding his step son who was living with him. John resigned his commission in the Free State Army in 1929. When WWII started he enlisted in the Irish Marine Service (forerunner of our Naval Service) as a Petty Officer. He died from a heart attack at Haulbowline Naval Base in November 1945. Perhaps I'm naive but I don't think these are the activities of a spy. Quite apart from that if he was in Q Company auxillieries he wouldn't have been awarded military pension in the 1930s by our Govt.
CSM I have copies of a number of death notices all of which state that he was in Q Company, Dublin IRA. I will look at the letter he received which set out his periods of service for Pension Purposes and see if it references Q company in the way that the death notices and his military service record in Rathmines do and come back to you.
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I'm pretty sure there's a mention of Q Co. in Charles Dalton's book "With the Dublin Brigade", will check later on...
Shane
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Hi, Sean Mc Cluskey was a member of K company. 3rd Battalion Old I,R, A. They had the job of containing the Dublin Fire Brigade. based in Tara St. This they did very well on the day. They were to hold the station till 1.50 this they also did. If he was not in the station he may have been on one of the posts covering there escape done Pearse St. toward westland Row. As it turned out they did not use that way, but they piled into an Ambulance. While the Tans were going in one of the doors they were going out another. When they asked where it was going they were told to the Custom House to collect wounded. Some of the way, Tara St, Fleet St, Anglesea St, finally stopping up at Hatch St. Were everyone vanished and went there way. On the cornor of Townsend St and Shaw St,Townsend St and Spring Garden St. Two men on each the same back to Westland Row. One on spring garden St was a M Doyle on loan from 4Th Battalion. Another called Lyons Somewere along there. Two others were arrested by chance on there way to the area. They were still in there training hall doing signal lamp, Most of the men had gone home. A man arrived on a bike and introduced himself as Fred Lawlor from the 3rd Battalion. M Spain and JO'Connor knew him. He wanted some six men for an important job . As there were only four of them they said they would go no problem.Joseph Carroll, Vincent Lyons. Matthew Doyle, and Seamus Kavanagh.
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CSM, John O'Reilly was awarded a Pension in July 1929 under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1924 of £47, 16 Shillings and two pence per year. His Certificate of Military Service simply describes him as being a member of Oglaigh na Eireann for the entire period from 1 April 1921 to 30 September 1923. His Grade of Rank was given as Grade Lieutenant.
Under the heading, Service Prior to 1st. Feb 1922, the Supplementary History Sheet in his military record in the Military archive describes him as "Member of Q Coy (Cross Channel boats)". It states that in civilian life he worked on the SS Finola and for Michael Murphy and Co. and for the Dublin & Le Havre Steamship Co. The reference to Q Company is repeated in the several death notices that I have for him. For example in the following from the Irish Independent of 12 November 1945 - "Sudden Death of Petty Officer - Petty Officer John O'Reilly, Marine Service, Haulbowline was taken ill in Haulbowline and died almost at once. Death was due to natural causes and an inquest has not been deemed necessary. Deceased who was unmarried, was aged about 47. He was a native of Dundrum, Co. Dublin., and had lived in Oriel Street., Dublin. in the War of independence Petty Officer O'Reilly was a member of "Q" Co., IRA."
Incidentally, his step father, James Cunningham was awarded a pension in February 1936 under the Military Service Pensions Act, 1934 of £23, six shillings and six pence. His Service Certificate describes him as being a member of the Irish Volunteers from 1 April 1916 to 31 March 1919 and a member of Oglaigh na hEireann from 1 April 1919 to 11 July 1921. His grade of rank was Grade E. Anyway, if anybody knows anything about Q Company I'd be be very interested.
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JohnMB, you have the proof in black and white that John O,Reilly was a member of "Q" Coy( Cross Channel Boats ).
I checked through my books and research files last night to see if I could come across anything but to no avail.
This is a Company that little is known of and there would have been other members attached to it. I do not know if you are based in Dublin but you could contact the Dublin Port Archive to see if anyone can point you in the right direction, also there are many knowledgeable contributors to this site who may come up with something. Keep at this, and I wish you well in your research.
CSM
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CSM, Thanks for the tip about the Dublin Port Archive. I didn't even know that there was such a body. John's father was also a merchant sailor who died in 1900. his mother, Sarah Cunningham nee Mahony (1860-1922) was employed as a Stewardess on the SS Yarrow, (later renamed SS Asseroe when bought by Palgrave Murphy of Dublin in 1929), which sailed on routes from Silloth in Scotland to Glasgow, Dublin and the Isle of Man. I recently contributed an interesting photo of her and the rest of the SS Yarrow crew to the website, www.solwayplain.co.uk, which is maintained by a Scottish local history group. So John's whole family was steeped in the sea. His grand father, James Mahony from Baldoyle was also a merchant sailor.
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Whew!! Just spent 2 hours reading through this thread and I'm reeling.
My husband's grandfather served in the British Army - Prince of Wales Leinster Reg. for 20 years. Discharged 1911 and shortly after, returned home to Dublin with his wife and children and died in 1939. His address when he joined up was Upper Dorset Street. The family story has always been that having served in the British Army, he then joined the IRA. Having researched my own family for 20 years. this is my first foray into Irish genealogy and I thought I would start with what I though was an improbable story!
After serving in the Boer War, his military record shows he served at "home" from 1901 until his discharge in 1911 but I am not sure whether this was in England or Ireland (Birr) or both. In either case, I would have thought he would have been more than aware of what was happening in Dublin during that period.
Given his service in the British Army, I think my first question would have to be - what sort of reception would he likely have received on his return home? On his discharge, he gave his intended future residence as an address in Manchester and then appears to have gone straight back to Dublin, which has always intrigued me but I can now see why he may have done that. Presumably thousands of others found themselves in this situation but I would be most grateful for any insight from the very knowledgeable posters on here, as to his feelings at that time.
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One of my ancestors served in the British Army and was in India on the 1911 census
(most of his British Army record was destroyed so I don't have the full facts)
He left the army and came back to Dublin where he joined the Irish Citizen's Army
He then rejoined the British Army in 1914 (as many Irish men did believing that the war would be over by Christmas and the promsied Home Rule would be granted) However he served all four years being discharged in 1918 - he travelled through France, North Africa, The Holy land and the middle east during the war
He again returned to Dublin and then joined the IRA and trained their men during the civil war and war of independence
Many returned soldiers from WW1 did the same - in a sharing of skills
prior to WW1 joining the British Army was joining the country's army - it was the governing force - some one with a sense of more Irishness than Unionist would be more pro IRA after 1916/WW1 and it would not be an unreasonable thought that he would sympathise or join.
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Hi, A little about Q Company.Sean McMahon's unit was Q Company He was the Quartermaster General at the time. One of the members of that unit was a man called Archie Kennedy. Mc Mahon ordered him to go down to the docks and try and organise sailors and dockers to join the Dublin Brigade and get them to smuggle in and transport weapons and ammunition from the boats sailing into Dublin port from Liverpool, Glasgow, London, Cardif, and continental ports.Kennedy was very well known in the dock area.
A little about KennedyIn 1912 he joined the I.R.B. (Irish Republican Brotherhood ) Tom Clarkes Centre, He joined the Irish Volunteers in 1913. In 1918 he was attached to Sean McMahon's unit. His father was one of the strikers in Mc Cormacks Coal Yard, Sir John Rogerson's Quay, Dublin in 1890. This strike led to the formation of the first Dockers Union. Joe Canty was the leader of that. So Archie was a well known figure and could move round the area without causing any notice to the powers that be. This freedom he used well.
He went round the different ships and managed to get at least two men in most vessels to agree to buy arms abroad and try to get them safely to Dublin, Ashore he got about 40 men 9 dockers) to agree to transport the arms and ammo to various dumps in the city. Private 1st Class.
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Hi, Sean Mc Cluskey was a member of K company. 3rd Battalion Old I,R, A. They had the job of containing the Dublin Fire Brigade. based in Tara St. This they did very well on the day. They were to hold the station till 1.50 this they also did. If he was not in the station he may have been on one of the posts covering there escape done Pearse St. toward westland Row. As it turned out they did not use that way, but they piled into an Ambulance. While the Tans were going in one of the doors they were going out another. When they asked where it was going they were told to the Custom House to collect wounded. Some of the way, Tara St, Fleet St, Anglesea St, finally stopping up at Hatch St. Were everyone vanished and went there way. On the cornor of Townsend St and Shaw St,Townsend St and Spring Garden St. Two men on each the same back to Westland Row. One on spring garden St was a M Doyle on loan from 4Th Battalion. Another called Lyons Somewere along there. Two others were arrested by chance on there way to the area. They were still in there training hall doing signal lamp, Most of the men had gone home. A man arrived on a bike and introduced himself as Fred Lawlor from the 3rd Battalion. M Spain and JO'Connor knew him. He wanted some six men for an important job . As there were only four of them they said they would go no problem.Joseph Carroll, Vincent Lyons. Matthew Doyle, and Seamus Kavanagh.
Thanks a lot for that information. If you can recommend any books which may have more info on Sean Mc Cluskey please let me know.
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Hi Back again .These men took the oath of allegiance to the Republic and became members of Q ( quartermasters) Company of the Dublin Brigade and attached to the Quartermaster Generals Dept. Working in there was Joe Vize, Uncommon name. Joe later became Major - General Joseph Vize. G,O,C. costal and Marine Defences.. Jor Furlong and Vize were making bombs and mines They were attached to Q Branch of G,H,Q. also.There was a company of Tans stationed in the Western Hotel, near the Holyhead wharf. They were on continual patrol day and night on both sides of the river, Making surprise searches of ships and vehicles for ammo and guns. They would drive by a ship and then turn round and come back and board her.In three years Q company never lost as much a one round of ammo or single weapon. There was one loss but it took place in New York.Gerry Boland went to the states to buy Thompson machine guns. They were to be transported on a ship called the EASTSIDE TO DUBLIN. A section of Q Company was given the job to collect them when she docked. They meet the ship in the basin but there were no Thommy guns in her.It was later found out that the ships cook gave the game away in New York and the arms were taken off there. The men of Q often linked up with the men of the liverpool branch. Mick McAteer often traveled covered by the Q men on the ship. It was he who interduced Jimmy conroy to the sailor who sold him his peter the painter as they were called. He also sold him the ammo which was the correct ammo for the gun. Jimmy said he never had a jam with the gun. It ended its days in the fire of the Custom House. Another man in that liverpool unit O'Leary who later became an officer in the Army. Nick named Ironmike. His son became an officer and played football for Dublin and was Captain of the Cuard Leinster House, Cathal O'Leary.I am sure I have a list of men that were members of Q.
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Hello Private 1st Class, you have probably made John MB a happy man with that information, I would be interested in anything else you know about "Q" Company, as I had never come across them before.
The Tans you mentioned were actually a Company of Auxiliaries, also known as "Q" Co, how ironic !
The L.N.W.R.Hotel was attacked by members of "E" Co. 2nd Bat. Dublin Brigade along with the A.S.U. and I would imagine with the full co-operation of the members of "Q" Co. Dublin Brigade.
CSM
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The following men were in Q company
J Reilly
D PEDERSKI, P Pederski,
Jas Byrne,
P Kavanagh,
M Aspell,
N Kelly,
P Ellis, J Brennan
John Kavanagh
John J Byrne,
Christy Carberry,
Myles Carroll,
John Blood,
Edward Byrne,
Willy Byrne,
John Higgins,
Joe Nolan,
Tom McDonnell,
Joe Nugent,Bob Halpin,
Bill Curry, William Tynes,
Frank Downey,
Charley Downey, Paddy Barrett,
Jack LYNCH,
j s lYNCH,
bILL Vernor,
Johnny Whelan,
Jack Farrell.
C Fortune,
T O'Toole,
M Fitzsimons,
T Toner, Barney Fitzsimons, Mick O'Toole,
Tommy Carrass Bogey Dixon Jem Ryan,
P Munnelly, Munnelly would move Guns and Ammo to the different dumps using a small milk cart drawn by a small pony. No one ever copped.
Some of the guys who helped out abroad. Most if not all forgotten now. In Glasgow D P Walsh Down in Liverpool Jack Carr. Spike Robinson and two brothers named Corr The Captain in charge of these men was Archie Kennedy. Dick Mulcahy Knew of these men and had some kind of input into what they done.
Archie died sometime in the late 60s or very early 70s A very nice and pleasent man May he rest in peace. ,
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Thank you MyLuck.
I just couldn't get my head around the question but your post has really put things in context for me. I can see I have a massive amount of reading to do!
Many thanks
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Private 1st class, the information you posted on "Q" Co is very informative, is there a book, article or Witness Statement that you gathered your information from ? and if so, could you let me know, it would be much appreciated.
CSM
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Private 1st Class, Thanks so much for the information on Q Coy. In the light of John O'Reilly's subsequent army career it makes sense that Q Coy's leader, Sean McMahon was the QM. Following the Anglo-Irish War joined the Free State Army. His date of Attestation in the Free State Army was 31 July 1922 in the Supply & Ordnance Dept. of the QMG's Dept. He was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant on 24 Oct 1922 by Colonel Commandant JJ Quin. His Officer's Service No was SDR/3505. He served as an acting Captain in the QMG's Dept. at Island Bridge Barracks until 4 June 1929 when he tendered his resignation. His resignation was accepted on 15 June 1929.
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Hi I looked after the basement part of 51 Parnell Sq, I was also in the HQ Branch of O N E That was there at the time, 1962, I was there till 1973.I would be in and out of the place at other times with my father. I met a lot of these men and I seen a lot of them. In 1966 I was drinking with them in the bar of 51 Parnell sq, Spent a lot of time talking to Martin Walton, He would be there most Friday nights. with Brian his wolf hound. I loved to hear the tales of his times and other men that were there.I worked with some of them in Beggars Bush Barracks. Peter Nolan, Frank Flanagan, Frank Stynes are ones that come to mind at the moment. The same in 196 Pearse St, Great times, They had a wonderful three quarters size billiard table in Pearse St. When the college took back the houses in Pearse St they had to move, They went to 51 Parnell Sq, Along with the other tenants, Red Cross Branch, ON E branch, The Wine club I had that table for years. So most of what I know I learned from the people themselves. As a child O Traynor would hold me on his lap and feed me all kinds of nice sweets. Much to the horror of my mother. They were starting up branches of Fianna Fail in the Santry and Whitehall area.They called one of the branches after Colley and Cole. It was still there in the 70s I believe. Some of these things I wrote down on sheets of paper. Others are burnt into my mind, Often I will read some thing and it will trigger things that i had forgotten. There may be books out there or notes and the like. This stuff can be with third generation people who ofter do not know what they have It lies in boxes and the like. It often then gets put into a skip.For years I listened to Rose Fitzpatrick Josephine Lyons Marsella Crimmins, Maggi Jordan and a host of others saying why does no one write a book or pamphlet about us and the Dromcondra Branch of the Cumman naBan. When I was old enough I said one time to them That you will have to write this yourselves as no one else is interested. I have been looking for years for information on this group. I have a few little items on them. They were a great bunch of women, Lots of them would be on holidays in Lay town. Have a few photos of them. They seemed to meet up there every year. As a child then you had to be seen and not heard, We were always earwigging. So keep looking its out there but as time goes on it gets less and less.
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Hi Thanks Capel St Man. With time and the mind. these little mistakes you make like tans and augs. The picture gets distorted over time. I found that out many years ago. The National Museum sent out a number of pages asking basic questions of the men. The amount that they had forgotten was un real. Stuff that you would think I would never forget that. They had. Another thing I found They often mixed two or three events into one. So by saying what someone else said was often enough to bring them back on track, Some uncommon names in the list of Q. might trigger someones mind, Keep looking and never give up.
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Private 1st class, thank you for your memories and input on "Q" Company, I am very interested in the subject, my family worked in the docks and my grandfather and most of his brothers were active members of "E" Company 2nd Battalion, Dublin Brigade.
I am also interested in what you posted about Sean McMahon's father, that he was one of the strikers in McCormacks Coal Yard, Sir John Rogersons Quay, Dublin in 1890.
Let me explain, my great grandfather, Patrick Duffy worked on the quays as a coalman and the family story is that he was involved in efforts to organise a port workers union in the 1890,s, he allegedly " Pushed a policeman into the docks " during the attempted strike and had to leave Dublin and went to Australia for a few years until it was safe for him to return, when he returned he helped in the establishment of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union in January 1907.
I have never been able to confirm or find out any more about the events, or how badly hurt the policeman was, for him to leave his wife and young family, he was smuggled out by his fellow dockers and sailors .
If you have any more information on the strike, it would be most appreciated.
CSM
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Hi Capel St Man, My Grand father James McDowell was what they call a"Button man"Dont know the full meaning of that, He traveled on the Lady Wicklow for most of his time and was responsible for the cattle. If they got hurt in the crossing I was told that his job was to put them down. He had six daughters no sons. He died in the street of a heart attack and taken to Jervis St Hospital. That was 1935 His brothers worked for a company called Wallaces, They supplied Large horses for shunting down on the point and pulling the large mail carts from the docks to the sorting office, They later became C I E. aS THERE WAS NO MALE MEMBER IN THE FAMILY TO FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS. We no longer had a connection with the dock area. They lived in Summerhill paradeThe strike in 1890
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A lot of people think the labour movement started with Larkin and Connolly, But there were men working in the back ground some twenty years before, James joined the union at 12 mid night. At 8pm he was given the sack. Someone seen him going into the union offices and reported him to the bosses. He was caretaking Wallaces at that time. The girls and his wife were out on the street. My aunts told me that the fellow that reported him got his job. Some six months later a horse kicked him to death in a stall, They played with the horses and groomed them even when sick. They never turned on the girls at any stage. My aunt Josie told me that she had heard that he often hit the animals. Might have done it once to often, The times were so different then. Putting him into the water. He might not have been able to swim and came close to drowning. He may have been a leader and would be singled out for harsh treatment. My father was enrolled in the Fianna by his mother. Oscar Traynor enticed him away to F Company and A company of the second battalion. Oscar lived next door to my dad at that time. He came back from the U S A. 1935. He joined the Transport and General Workers Union. He would later become Hon Chairman of number 5 branch,I'll watch out for stuff and will post it up if I get anything, Take care, Private 1St Class
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Thanks Private 1st class, you started a sentence about the strike in 1890 but that's all that has come through on the post, check it out and re - send it, I appreciate you looking into the strike for me.
My grandfathers brother, Benny, born 1888, worked on the docks as a Stevedore, then he was head of transport, which was the horse drawn carriages, he later became a manager in the B.&I. he probably would have known your grandfather.
Good luck
CSM
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Hi yes I do not know what happened there. I was typing away and and the page jumped and went on to the board. I do not think I left out anything, I more or less started again. Company's where not big it is possible that if they did not talk to one another they would have know one another to see. As manager he would have to know who was on each ship. My father traveled on the Lady Wicklow to take part on the sea landing in Tralee. I think that is the only time the Irish Army has done that.
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Hello Private 1st class and JohnMB, the following is from a book by Piaras Beaslai, "Michael Collins and the Making of a New Ireland",volume 1
I must now refer to Collins work in connection with foreign communications and the smuggling of men and arms into Ireland - a very important branch of his activities. This work was carried on chiefly through Liverpool.
As far back as 1908, when Collins , as a youth of 18, visited Liverpool with a London - Irish hurling team to play in a match, he made the acquaintance, at a meeting of the Irish Republican Brotherhood in that city of Neil Kerr......
Neil Kerr had succeeded in collecting a considerable quantity of arms and ammunition in Liverpool, which he subsequently succeeded in shipping to Dublin......Kerr,who was at this time in the employ of the Cunard Steamship Co., had already got sailors working for him on ships sailing between Dublin and Liverpool.....
Neil Kerr had an active and able assistant in Steve Lanigan, who held an important position in the Liverpool Custom House.... he was an old member of the I.R.B., and from the inception of Kerr's work for Collins, he acted as his Lieutenant, making frequent trips to Dublin to see Collins.
Perhaps the most noteworthy of the many mariners who carried on the dangerous and difficult work of communications between Ireland and England, the importation of arms, and the secret conveyance of men in and out of Ireland, was Ned Kavanagh.
Other seamen on the cross - Channel boats ....... were Paddy MacCarthy, Willie Verner, Paddy Wafer, Maurice Byrne and Henry Shortt, Tommy O,Connor, Dick O,Neill, the last two carried dispatches across the Atlantic.
There were many other helpers in Liverpool and on the boats in the work of communications, but while I would like to put the names of all these brave and zealous workers on record, the time has hardly yet come when it would be expedient to do so.
CSM
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Does anyone have any information about "B" company , first battalion , South Dublin Brigade . Also seeking information about James "jimmy " O"Connor . Unfortunately I have no Information about which unit he was attached to but I can tell you he owned a barber shop that was located oppisite the Garda station in Donnybrook . Any help would be appreciated .
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Hello cruisedub, there was a James O,Connor, Dublin, who made a Witness Statement, these are held at the National Archives, Bishop Street, Dublin, if you are new to this game, you would need identification, e,g. a passport to register.
I can,t say it will be the right James O,Connor, but it is worth a try, let me know how you get on.
CSM
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Thank's for the reply , I live in the U.S. So I will have to wait until I next visit Ireland .
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My uncle Joseph Traynor was a volunteer. He was shot dead in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday. The only references I have to him been a member of the IRA are the inscription on his head stone(erected by his comrades) and his name on a list for Mount Argus Mass for members of F.Company. 4th Batt. Dublin Brigade. He went to the match with Paddy (P.J.) Ryan. Any information out there or Joseph or P.J.Ryan?
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Hi,
Would really appreciate any information on the members of "B"coy 4th batt, Dublin Brigade, Old IRA. My great uncle Peter White was a member and I know that at the funeral of a James.Sinnott in 1939 in Deans Grange, he was one of the firing party. Others members of the firing party were Lt. B. Leahy, C. Clarke, P. Lanigan, J. Corcoran, M. White and JP Du Moulin. Peter was interred and on hunger strike, as was James Sinnott, in tintown in the curragh camp and later became a dublin town councillor. Any information or lists regarding members of this company would be hugely appreciated.
Thanks all
Ger
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Hello ailbhe, an Oscar Traynor made a Witness Statement, these are held at the National Archives, Bishop Street Dublin, do not know if he is related ,but you could check it out.
There is also a museum at Croke Park which has loads of information about the people that died that day, I have not been myself, its worth checking also.
CSM
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Hello gmoneill01, a George White of Dublin made a Witness Statement, same details as above, also from a Witness Statement no 1762 made by a Colonel J.V.Joice, he lists a G. White and a M.White as being members of NO.3.Section of the Active Service Unit, do not know if these are related but they are worth checking out.
CSM
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Hi Capel street man
Thanks a mill for that. Great stuff. I will indeed check it out
Thanks again
Ger
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Hello ailbhe, came across a Volunteer Thomas Traynor in a new book I am reading - The Black and Tans by D.M. Leeson
It refers to an ambush on Auxiliaries, 14th March, 1921, Brunswick Street ( now Pearse Street ) and the intersection with Sandworth Street, Dublin, he was captured with a pistol in his hand , it states Traynor was a veteran of the 1916 Rebellion, he was 39 nine years old and had 10 children.
He was tried by court martial for the murder of Cadet Farrell and found guilty, he was hanged on 27th April.
Check out to see if he was related and let me know how you get on.
CSM.
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Hi Capel Street Man, Thanks, I have not made the connection of the two yet, but I think I am close. Thomas was born in Tullow, Carlow while Joseph father was from Augrim, Wicklow both close to each other. At the time of Thomas Traynors execution he was living in Mount Brown, He was a bootmaker by trade.
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Hello ailbhe, came across a reference to " F " Co. 4th Batt. Dublin Brigade in the book - " Dublin's Fighting Story 1916 - 21, Told By The Men Who Made It "
Attack on R.A.F Units at Red Cow Inn by Jim Donnelly
He goes into detail of an ambush against members of the Royal Air Force stationed at Baldonnell Aerodrome carried out by members of " F " Co. 4th Batt.
It also states that " F " Co. took in the districts south of the Liffey, including the Dublin Union, Old and New Kilmainham, Inchicore, Ballyfermot, Fox and Geese etc.
Check the book out, it will give you an idea of what your relative was involved in.
CSM
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Capel Street Man, Thanks a lot, I will check it out.
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Hello all.
Found this site when I was looking up the 26th. Battalion Old IRA .Maybe someone can help me.
My Grand father had 2 medals . ( 1 Black and Tan & A service medal with 2 bars for his 26th. battalion service )
His name was Peter Smith and he never received an IRA pension it was said in the family that he fought for his country not a pension But I believe he may have been refused one as I think he was on the anti treaty side. His brother ( I was told died after been shot in the head and their mother would not attend the funeral ) My grand father did have a military funeral in 1963 ( I remember that as I was a child at the time )
The only info I have is that his friend ( IRA Friend ) owned a shop in clonbrassill St. and the family spoke of him going to the IRA Hall in Thomas St.
My mother is his only living child and she is in her 80s she does not remember much .
Were do I start ??
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Hello typetre and welcome to the site.
To receive the medals, your grandfather would have had an army service record, he might have been a member of a battalion before the truce/ treaty, then joined the anti - treaty side.
Check the date of your grandfathers brothers death, if he was killed in the Civil War, there would have been a record and possibly, a newspaper report.
Your grandfather would have been entitled to a pension, but for reasons you might not find out now, he didn't follow it up, it didn't matter whether you were pro or anti - treaty, it was the timing of the application,
You will need to find out the date of birth of the your two relatives and known addresses at the time of the Troubles and if they changed address.
Have you checked the headstones of your relatives to see if there is a inscription?, are there any more brothers in the family who might have been involved ?
People are very friendly and helpfull on this site, so keep at it and good luck, let me know how you get on.
CSM
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Conormac,
I have for some time been trying to get some info on my uncle Michael Whelan
The story goes that he was in the four courts in'22 and left the courts disguised as ambulance men trying to get reinforcements. He then fled to the us as there was a price on his head. He never got a pension from the state as he did not return home until the '50.
When he died he receive a gun salute and flag draped coffin on his death in 1975
To date I can find no reference to him in any area that I have looked. Would be grateful for any info
Kilmac 24
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Hello kilmac24 and welcome to the site.
There was a Thomas Whelan, member of C.Company 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, he was executed on 14th March 1921 for his involvement in Bloody Sunday and is well documented.
Also the following Whelan,s made Witness Statements, which are held at the National Archives, Bishop Street , Dublin
J.Whelan, Waterford
Patrick J. Whelan, Cork
Patrick Whelan, Limerick
Patrick Whelan , Waterford
Sean Whelan , Wexford
William Whelan , Dublin
I cannot say if any of the above are related to you, but you could check them out, as I have said before, keep at it
Good luck
CSM
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Thanks CSM
I never taught of checking my grand father head stone,
I must try and question my mother more.
It was only recently she told me about his brother
she gets very confused but sometimes she does remembers names.
The last time I questioned her she stated she carried a flag in the 25th. anniversary parade.
I have found his addresses from the 1901 and 1911 census.
but it looks like they moved around quite a bit
I also know his address during the emergency.
I think I have a lot of info but don't know what is fact or what is added on with time at this stage
Were could I check for a service record ? and what info would I need to get access to it.
Once again thanks very much for your help.
tvpetre
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Hi, this website is a good source of information
and also has contact details at the bottom of the page.
From personal experience they are very helpful.
Anne
http://www.military.ie/info-centre/military-archives
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Conormac,
I have for some time been trying to get some info on my uncle Michael Whelan
The story goes that he was in the four courts in'22 and left the courts disguised as ambulance men trying to get reinforcements. He then fled to the us as there was a price on his head. He never got a pension from the state as he did not return home until the '50.
When he died he receive a gun salute and flag draped coffin on his death in 1975
To date I can find no reference to him in any area that I have looked. Would be grateful for any info
Kilmac 24
Hi Kilmac, you might be lucky & find a newspaper article on the funeral, have a look on Irish Newspaper archive , It will cost you 10 euro a day , but is well worth it, also the Irish times archive again 10 euro for 24 hours.The last time I went on the Irish Times on, I found an article on my Great Gran Father getting a month in prison for his strike activies in 1911 ! Gary
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Complete listing of the Dublin ASU it includes squad members etc
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asu list
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Hello typetre, came across a Michael Smith , known as "Tiger " from Dublin, Redmonite leader who joined Volunteers. Fought during Easter Week Rebellion.
Check to see if he was related to your grandfather
If you are based in Dublin you could go to the National Archives, Bishop Street, Dublin, you have to register and bring some form of identification, e.g. a passport, they are very helpfull and will point you in the right direction.
CSM
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Thanks for the info Capel Street Man. Afraid my uncle is not among this list.
I have info on his brother Eamonn(Ned) Whelan who served in "Sluagh Fianna Eireann" in 1917 age 12 and then in "L"Company 3rd Battalion Dublin Brigade 1n 111922.
This info I received from his pension info , bot no other info on him(Eamonn) or his brother , Mike. who was in the Four Courts
Kilmac 24
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Silly Question, the rank of Section Leader in the old IRA was that the same as a corporal in the army ? or Sergeant ? was it the first promotion a man would get ? I am just wondering as its the rank my great uncle gives in his pension application papers.
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Further to my uncle Mike Whelan in the four courts in 1922, he was also interred in Balklykinlar, in 1920 See bad photo . My uncle is 2nd from left back row. He was in "F" Company 4th Batt. Dublin Brigade. Any further information would be appreciated
Kilmac24
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Hi Kimac24
My grand dad Michael Whelan was a volunteer of the 4th Brigade F Company he was under Con Colbert
Not sure whether we are researching the same person
Regards
Genseacher
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Gensearcher
Thanks for info, but my uncle ,born 1900, did not marry until about 1945 in U.S. and at that had no family, as far as we know. After his wife, Claris, died in 1958 he returned home to Co. Wicklow where he died and was buried with military honours
Does that mean there were 2 Michael Whelan's in "F" Company , 4th. Batt
Any further info would be gratefully received
Kilmac 24
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A little about KennedyIn 1912 he joined the I.R.B. (Irish Republican Brotherhood ) Tom Clarkes Centre, He joined the Irish Volunteers in 1913. In 1918 he was attached to Sean McMahon's unit. His father was one of the strikers in Mc Cormacks Coal Yard, Sir John Rogerson's Quay, Dublin in 1890. This strike led to the formation of the first Dockers Union. Joe Canty was the leader of that. So Archie was a well known figure and could move round the area without causing any notice to the powers that be. This freedom he used well.
He went round the different ships and managed to get at least two men in most vessels to agree to buy arms abroad and try to get them safely to Dublin, Ashore he got about 40 men 9 dockers) to agree to transport the arms and ammo to various dumps in the city. Private 1st Class.
Private 1 class, I'm stunned by your knowledge and personal association with Kennedy. He was in fact my great-grandfather, and I've been trying to uncover more information about him for sometime. My mother only today found his obituary with reference to he being Captain of Q Company, and doing a search I found this thread and your information relating to Q Company and Kennedy himself. I fully intend of going to the Military Archives in Dublin to find any Witness Statements he may have made.
Is there anything more you can add to what you mentioned? I found references to a John Kennedy in the Four Courts garrison during the Rising, as well as another that was imprisoned in Ballykinlear in 1921. I’m not certain if this is the same man never mind is it my great-grandfather. Was he active during the Civil War? Did he remain in the republican movement thereafter?
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Hello typetre, just enquiring on progress in your research
Have you contacted Veterans Administration Section, Department of Defence, Renmore Galway regarding pre- Truce service ?
Regarding the medals you mentioned, is this any help
AN BONN SEIRBHISE ( 1917 - 1921 )
THE SERVICE ( 1917 - 1921 )
DATE OF CREATION 24/1/1941
CONDITIONS OF THE AWARD
This medal is awarded in two classes
a) Medal with bar to persons who rendered active service in either periods a) the period commencing on the 1st April, 1920, and ending on the 31st March, 1921, or b) the period commencing on the 1st April, 1921, and ending on the 11th July, 1921.
b) Medal without bar to persons whose service is not deemed to be active military service, but who were members of Oglaigh na hEireann, ( Irish Republican Army ), Fianna Eireann, Cumann na mBan or the Irish Citizen Army for the three months ended on the 11th July ,1921.
Further information on medals from DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE, FINANCE BRANCH, you could go on their website, not sure if allowed to post website - www.irlgov.ie/defence
CSM
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Kilmac24,
The following documents are listed in the Small Private Accessions list of the National Archives:
999/742 Donated
1. 9 June 1921 Ballykinlar
Letter from Thomas [ONeill] to his sister, Sr. Monica, Enniscorthy with news of Ballykinlar Camp
2. Sept 1921
Copy of Ballykinlar Newspaper
No 1 Vol 1, 12 pp
I know that both of these relate to a year after your grand father, Mr. Whelan was there but you might find them interesting anyway. Sorry about my abortive previous attempt to post this message.
JohnMB
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Morning Liam, there is a plaque in a wall, outside a corporation house in Yellow Road, Whitehall, dedicated to a Volunteer, I have no idea who it is or why it is there, perhaps this relates to the reference in your fathers pension application, maybe someone on this site could help and explain the story behind the plaque.
If I come across any other information, I will let you know.
CSM
The memorial referred to is that of Cole and Colley, two senior Fianna Eireann members. They were murdered near to this spot in August 1922 by a squad of Free State officers who had abducted them at Newcomen Bridge, North Strand.. The area was then a quiet country lane.
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Thanks for that watchman1 and welcome to the site
CSM
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Hi. CSM. I'm new to this and still finding my way about. My particular interest is in the activities of the Oriel House CID. I have a large article on this outfit on Wikipedia and I now find many of the name of the CID popping up on this site here. I have collected much of what is available from the NA on Oriel House, and I have thought about writing a booklet on the subject. However, I meet many brick walls during my searches and I find it very frustrating. One name has appeared on this site frequently-Charles Murphy. He was walking home to the North Strand on Clonliffe Road one Night in Nov 1922 and he witnessed Charlie Dalton and Nicholas Tobin (brother of Liam) arresting 3 Fianna boys. They were found, literally riddled, at Clondalkin quarries next morning. Murphys relations now claim that he was working all along for the IRA. Perhaps, as Ernie O'Malley claimed to have at least two of his men inside Oriel House. A document in O'Malleys papers gives a list of 120 men and women, working three shifts out of Oriel House. This list is almost identical to a pay sheet that I have on the CID in Oriel House. I'll stop there before I get carried away. Cheers
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Hi I found the list very interesting. What date was it complied, and by who. Many thanks.
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Hello watchman1, you have done stirling work on the research into Oriel House and I understand entirely where you are coming from when you mention " brick walls ", it is every researchers nightmare, but when you can knock down that " brick wall " and you find something relative, its worth all the hard work.
Have you ever come across Eugene Igoe in your research, I am finding it very difficult to find anything about him or his " Gang " other than what I have come across in Witness Statements.
CSM
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Hi again CSM. Igoe was an RIC sergeant based in Galway. He came from a poor farm in Ballycastle, Co. Mayo. For his work in Galway against Republicans he was asked to go to Dublin and sort it out. He recruited similar talent amongst the RIC and they operated out of the Depot in the Park. The 'Squad was constantly looking for this outfit, and on at least one occasion they came face to face.(Charlie Dalton's Statement, I think)His file is available from the British Archives at Kew. I'll try a friend for you for further info. Cheers, Watchman1
Just found a piece on Igoe a few minutes ago. Try:- Jim Harpurs Recollections Part 1
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( Here is the list, have not yet been able to determine when it was published. I believe it to be between 1933 & 1940. Any information on any of the men listed - IE; home addresses, occupations, employer, death date - PLEASE POST here.)
E. and M. Companies
3rd BATTALION OLD I.R.A.
Dublin No. 1 Brigade - 196 Pearse Street
- NAMES OF DECEASED MEMBERS -
Noel Lemass
Patrick Doyle
Dick Hyland
John Mansfield
Frank Jackson
Jack McGowan
John Hyland
James Kearns
- I am particularly interested in the names in bold print -
Hi Sandlotball.
I just joined this blog two days ago. I can give you information on one of the names that you listed. This is Harry(Henry) McEntee. This man was shot dead at the top of the Jamestown Road, Finglas. This was after the Cease Fire of 1923 and its believed that he was the last man to be killed in the Dublin area. At his inquest his name was given as Glouster Street. The Oriel House Gang had told his wife that they were going to 'riddle' him when they found him.
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I just had a quick read of this, Noel Lemass lived in Capel St, He was shot after the Civil War.It was rumoured that it was Free State officers in plain clothes that did it.The reason he was shot was he was taking pot shots at army trucks from his parents home & managed to kill 2 officers.He went on the run to the Isle of Man if I remember right & returned a few months after the Civil War ended.His body was found in the Dublin Mountains I think.
GaryDeering,
Can I give you a little information on Noel Lemass. Noel was an engineer by profession and was at work on the day that he was abducted. This was after the Cease Fire of 1923. He was in Drury Street with one of his foremen (they were with Dublin Corporation Cleansing Dept.) when they were approached by two armed men. Lemass was held by one of the gunmen, whilst the foreman was brought around the corner by the other and told to clear off. That was the last time that Lemass was seen alive. His parents made several requests to Cosgrave as to his whereabouts, without avail. There were many rumours about at the time as to why he had been singled out. It was said by some that Collins had personally ordered his death, as Lemass, in his capacity as Intelligence Officer, in the Dublin Brigade, had had access to Collins's personal mail. It took all those months for Collins's men to catch up with Lemass. So one of the stories go. Cheers, Watchman1
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Cheers Watchman, It would not have taken the Free State long to find Lemass , for example my Great Uncle was a Free State Officer his brother worked in the Corporation Cleansing Dept ! Being Dubliners they would have had contacts everywhere, John Pinkman stated in his book Lemass was shot as a result of him shooting from his family home into a Free State truck & killing two soldiers ! As a senior IRA Officer it seems a bit of a silly thing to do ? maybe his little brother did the shooting ? Also in the Pinkmans book he mentions an ASU man who deserted the Dublin Guard & fought for the republicans & was killed by the murder gang in Oriel House. Any idea who this ASU man was ?
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Hi all, following with interest. We were up in the mountains this Sept and came across this. Very sad.
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Cheers Watchman, It would not have taken the Free State long to find Lemass , for example my Great Uncle was a Free State Officer his brother worked in the Corporation Cleansing Dept ! Being Dubliners they would have had contacts everywhere, John Pinkman stated in his book Lemass was shot as a result of him shooting from his family home into a Free State truck & killing two soldiers ! As a senior IRA Officer it seems a bit of a silly thing to do ? maybe his little brother did the shooting ? Also in the Pinkmans book he mentions an ASU man who deserted the Dublin Guard & fought for the republicans & was killed by the murder gang in Oriel House. Any idea who this ASU man was ?
Hi Gary, Another theory as to why Noel Lemass was murdered was that he was responsible for having Sean Hales killed at Ormond Quay. Ulick O'Connor put that theory to bed in his book 'Execution', a very good read and essential towards understanding the period. Sean Lemass is said to have worked with the man that was responsible for his brothers death when he came into power in 1932, but he managed to 'bottle' it up and tried to forget about it.
I never actually heard about anyone getting bumped off in Oriel House, except a CID man who was shot dead the night that the IRA launched an attack on it in October 1922.
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Sorry watchman I did not but that very clearly, the EX ASU man was murdered by someone from Oriel House not in Oriel House.
Re Ulick , he is not the worst, I came across him a few times in work ( I have not seen him in years), might be worth asking him who shot Noel Lemass !
The thing about this period is, they where all as bad as each other, after they got used to shooting unarmed men in the War of Independence, The IRA seemed to become desensitized to murder. In the Civil War the Republicans did not seem to mind shooting unarmed soldiers, TD`s, Burning Houses with people in them etc landmines etc. The Free State beat & murdered prisoners. In later years we only have to look at the Broy Harriers to see Oriel House come back & haunt us again.
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Sorry watchman I did not but that very clearly, the EX ASU man was murdered by someone from Oriel House not in Oriel House.
Re Ulick , he is not the worst, I came across him a few times in work ( I have not seen him in years), might be worth asking him who shot Noel Lemass !
The thing about this period is, they where all as bad as each other, after they got used to shooting unarmed men in the War of Independence, The IRA seemed to become desensitized to murder. In the Civil War the Republicans did not seem to mind shooting unarmed soldiers, TD`s, Burning Houses with people in them etc landmines etc. The Free State beat & murdered prisoners. In later years we only have to look at the Broy Harriers to see Oriel House come back & haunt us again.
I'll keep an eye out for that in my reading. I've documented 25 killings in an article on Wikipedia-Oriel House CID', but I'm not aware if any of these had changed over from the FSA> Cheers, Watchman1
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Watchman Leo Murray was an ex ASU man. I just checked the ASU list against your Wikipedia list. If you have anyway of checking to see if he deserted the Dublin Guard we have solved it.
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Watchman Leo Murray was an ex ASU man. I just checked the ASU list against your Wikipedia list. If you have anyway of checking to see if he deserted the Dublin Guard we have solved it.
Gary, I have no information on Leo Murray, other than what appeared in the papers re; his death and inquest. He was only 19 years of age, so I doubt if we are talking about the same person. A high-ranking FSA man, operating out of Portobello Barracks with a group of felow officers were the ones that shot Murray and Murphy on that occasion. They had been hunted by the CID from Oriel House on several occasions. In one encounter at Deansgrange a CID man was shot and he succumbed to his injuries. This would have put Murray and Murphy high up the 'wanted' list. The high-ranking officer referred to would have been the dead mens Brigade Adjutant before the split. Cheers, Watchman1
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There was a Leo Murray in the ASU , he was dead by the time the ASU list was compiled in the 1940`s/early 50`s which includes WOI & CW dead on the list, Vinnie Byrne & Charlie Dalton would have been around the 19 mark in 1922 so age does not come into it.
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There was a Leo Murray in the ASU , he was dead by the time the ASU list was compiled in the 1940`s/early 50`s which includes WOI & CW dead on the list, Vinnie Byrne & Charlie Dalton would have been around the 19 mark in 1922 so age does not come into it.
Ok Gary, We'll just leave the question open and keep it in mind if anything comes up. I must go back and look at that list, I think it's on page 29
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There was a Leo Murray in the ASU , he was dead by the time the ASU list was compiled in the 1940`s/early 50`s which includes WOI & CW dead on the list, Vinnie Byrne & Charlie Dalton would have been around the 19 mark in 1922 so age does not come into it.
Ok Gary, We'll just leave the question open and keep it in mind if anything comes up. I must go back and look at that list, I think it's on page 29
Gary, Just looked at the list and Leo Murray is there beside the man that died with him -Rodney Murphy. They were killed on 2 September 1922 at Stillorgan.
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Watchman that`s great, I did not look for a second ASU man, Just on a footnote if I am reading the right article Free State Intelligence Department – Oriel House on Wikipedia, the whole of the Squad was not attached to Oriel House. If we where to believe all the rubbish that is wrote online, the Squad must have numbered at least 100 men to have been all over the country & shot every prisoner during the Civil War.A lot of the Squad where in the Army & NOT attached to intelligence.In fact an awful lot of the men who where supposed to be in the Squad where never members.
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Watchman that`s great, I did not look for a second ASU man, Just on a footnote if I am reading the right article Free State Intelligence Department – Oriel House on Wikipedia, the whole of the Squad was not attached to Oriel House. If we where to believe all the rubbish that is wrote online, the Squad must have numbered at least 100 men to have been all over the country & shot every prisoner during the Civil War.A lot of the Squad where in the Army & NOT attached to intelligence.In fact an awful lot of the men who where supposed to be in the Squad where never members.
Gary, I'm going to go through the ASU list and compare it against my Oriel House list to see if there are any candidates. From memory I can only think of one man-Sean Tumbleton. He would have been about 3rd. in line in Oriel House. I'll get back to you in about two days. Cheers, Watchman1
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Watchman that`s great, I did not look for a second ASU man, Just on a footnote if I am reading the right article Free State Intelligence Department – Oriel House on Wikipedia, the whole of the Squad was not attached to Oriel House. If we where to believe all the rubbish that is wrote online, the Squad must have numbered at least 100 men to have been all over the country & shot every prisoner during the Civil War.A lot of the Squad where in the Army & NOT attached to intelligence.In fact an awful lot of the men who where supposed to be in the Squad where never members.
Gary, I'm going to go through the ASU list and compare it against my Oriel House list to see if there are any candidates. From memory I can only think of one man-Sean Tumbleton. He would have been about 3rd. in line in Oriel House. I'll get back to you in about two days. Cheers, Watchman1
Gary, me again. I have compared lists and have come up with 8 names for you.
ASU Oriel House
Sean Doyle John Doyle IO of C Coy. 2nd. Batt. Private
James Hughes Jim Hughes A Coy 3rd. Battalion. Private (IO in IRP HQ)
Martin Hoare Martin Hore A Coy 3rd Battalion.Private
Sean Tumbleton Sean Tumbleton- Lieutenant no background info)
Pat Collins P. Collins HQ Staff IRP Private
J.O'Carroll J.O'Carroll Brigade Police Officer. Private
Jim Doyle(James) Jim Doyle Lieut. H Coy 4th. Batt. Private
John O'Connor John O'Connor Unattached. Worked with IO of A Coy 1st. Battalion Private
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Hi all,
I'm reading this thread with great interest as I am currently researching my granduncles involvement with the IRA -he received a gun salute and had his coffin draped at his funeral however beyond that we know very little about what he did. I have applied for pension application records but I'll be waiting a long while before I receive them.
His name was Patrick fitzgerald.
I was interested to see mention of pearse street as he owned a pub on pearse street in the 1930s/1940s (fitzgeralds) which was supposed to have been very popular with IRA members?
I'm interested to hear if his name pops up on any of your records.
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Hello yaya*, have you ever checked the Witness Statements held in the N.A. Bishop Street, Dublin ?
The following Fitzgerald's made W.S., perhaps one of them could be related to Patrick.
1) George Fitzgerald - Dublin
2) J.E.Fitzgerald - Dublin
3) James Fitzgerald - Dublin
4) Theo Fitzgerald - Dublin
There is one W.S. made by a Patrick .P.Fitzgerald from Kerry, the W.S. were made in the late 40,s, early 50,s
If you have not been before, you need I.D. such as a passport, it might be worth a visit just to eliminate them from your research.
Do you know if your relative received any medals ?
Also, you could check the newspapers from the date your relative passed away, to see if he was mentioned or there is an obituary about him, keep us posted how you get on.
CSM
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Dear gkenny
Attached are a couple of extracts from Military Archive Witness Statement WS907 by Larry Nugent which may be of interest if Sean and John McCloskey are the one.
dtc
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( Here is the list, have not yet been able to determine when it was published. I believe it to be between 1933 & 1940. Any information on any of the men listed - IE; home addresses, occupations, employer, death date - PLEASE POST here.)
E. and M. Companies
3rd BATTALION OLD I.R.A.
Dublin No. 1 Brigade - 196 Pearse Street
- NAMES OF DECEASED MEMBERS -
Thomas Whelan
Noel Lemass
Michael O'Connor
Patrick Doyle
David Irons
Batt O'Connor
Sean Bowden
Dick Hyland
Thomas Cooke
George Ward
John Mansfield
John J. Whelan
Harry McEntee
Phillip Connery
Ritchie Kelly
T. Byrne
E. Conlon
P. Doran
A. Lanigan
Jerry Green
Harold Corrigan
Phillip Byrne
Alf McLoughlin
Joseph O'Neill
Frank Jackson
Jack McGowan
Patrick Murphy
Thomas McDonnel
Nicholas Byrne
Larry Murphy
Mathew Tannam
Joseph Rochford
William Henry
Peter Blackburn
Frank McGrath
J. Reilly
M. McCaura
J.J. Whelan
Charles Kavanagh
Miceal de Burca
J. Moran
Bernard Culligan
John Hyland
James Kearns
- I am particularly interested in the names in bold print -
Its been quite some time since I originaly posted this list & the thread has become over, the 4 years, a fantastic place for people to post & compare notes. It's been a learning expierience following it. Now that some of the sideways tracts it took have been split off ( they're all interesting), I would like to return to the list. So I'll post the original in the following post -
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The list is printed on thick, sturdy paper, about the size of a large post card - as if it were something handed out at an event or occasion.
The markings were done by my father - The name with the box around it, John Mansfield, is my grandfather. He died in 1932 so obviously the list dates from after that. The other marked names appear to be men my father knew were friends with or close with his father.
I've learned since the original thread post that Noel Lemass was a nieghbor of John Mansfield's father - my grandfather grew up in that home actually, Jack McGowan is most likely a relative - there were many inter-mariages between the 2 families & his wife was a McGowan, Frank Jackson seems to have lived on the same block in Sandymount with my grandfather.
If anyone has any information on John Mansfield I would be greatfull. I have a heck of a hard time researching him only on the internet. Thanks !
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Hi, This is like somrthing that was handed out at the Annual Mass for deceased members of the unit.
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Thanks private - I've wondered what type of event this would have been handed out at. Were the masses held yearly ?
To date, it remains the only list I've found his name on. I know a bit about the things he did and his long imprisonment. I know also my grandmother remained close with de Valera till they passed (she died in 1980 age 98). But despite this, I can't seem to find any information regarding him.
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Hi Yes most if not all units held an annual mass. As they got older and fewer the masses died out. The Company mass became the battalion mass. Then Brigade mass, Also there were annual masses for individuals. The McKee Clancy, Clune annual mass was a big occasion. There were two military parades in Dublin. The Easter parade for 1916, and the McKee, Clancy, Clune parade. The salute was taken at City Hall. A wreath laid at the door where the men were killed. and mass in the church in the castle. There were a set number of Church's used for these masses. The evening Herald printed the old I R A notes each week, A look at them will give you an idea of what was going on. The evening Press were not as good at printing them.The Dublin Brigade Council went to Dail Eireann to lobby Dev and have him include the notes. They would appear for a while and die out again. The Herald was never a problem. sometimes when they were young enough they would march to a location they had fought in and lay a wreath. This was the case of the group that burned the custom house. Mass in the Castle and march to the Custom House, The G P O Garrison done it as did Bolands Mills.
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Dear gkenny
Attached are a couple of extracts from Military Archive Witness Statement WS907 by Larry Nugent which may be of interest if Sean and John McCloskey are the one.
dtc
Harry (Henry) McEntee is reputed to be the last person to die in the Dublin area in the aftermath of the civil war. He lived in Gloucester Street and his wife had been harassed constantly by the CID from Oriel House, saying that they would 'riddle' him when found. His body was found with gunshot wounds at the junction of the Jamestown and Dubber Roads, Finglas. A National Graves Association memorial was placed there c.1932 and was maintained by the Fianna Sluagh in Finglas during the 1950's and 60's.
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Dear gkenny
Attached are a couple of extracts from Military Archive Witness Statement WS907 by Larry Nugent which may be of interest if Sean and John McCloskey are the one.
dtc
That is very interesting. Thanks very much for posting those, I was not aware of them till now. I am definitely making a visit to the archives.
One of them includes :
Thos.J.Cullen and Cpt. John McCluskey, who was taken on special service by Mick Collins as one of his most trusted men. When Captain Thos. Cullen was transferred to the Battalion Staff, Harry O’Farrell, another man who had gone through all the original training, was elected Captain of K. Company.
On the morning of Mick Collins’s escape in Mespil Road John McCluskey had his children waiting at points in case Mick came
along. These children knew him well.
My Grandmother said stories that would tie in with the above, I dismissed them as the usual urban legend kind of thing. I doubt there was a John McCluskey and a Sean McCluskey in K Company, 3rd Battalion so I believe this is the same man & the above ties in with what my Grandmother used to tell us about her activity as a child and about her father Sean McCluskey. I am blown away by that link, thanks so much for posting that.
Does anyone have any ideas if this could be the same man who gave a witness statement but is recorded as 'Official Dail Eireann' ?
http://www.militaryarchives.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/The_Bureau_of_Military_History_1913-1921_Index_to_Contributors.pdf
McCluskey. Sean. Official Dail Eireann, 1919. (WS) 512
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I am trying to trace a distant relative of mine, Robert "Bobbie" Bonfield (occasionally misspelt as Bondfield) who joined the IRA from Na Fianna in 1918 at the age of about 15.
Bobbie took the anti-Treaty side in the Civil War and was killed by Free State forces in March 1923.
I can find information about his death, but nothing about his activities in Na Fianna or afterwards in the IRA - would your researches have thrown up his name at all?
Bobbie lived at the family home at 103 Moyne Road, Ranelagh, Dublin 6 if that helps you narrow things down. He was a classmate of CS "Todd" Andrews (in either St. Enda's or Synge Street CBS) and may have joined the Volunteers with him as Andrews joined at the same age.
Bobbie took the anti-Treaty side in the Civil War and was killed by Free State forces on 29/03/1923, at the time of his death I believe he was Acting O/C of the 4th. Battalion IRA when he would have been a 20 year old dental student in the third year of his studies at UCD.
It is alleged that he assassinated former TD and leader of the Citizens Defense Force Seamus Dwyer in December 1922 and that he himself was killed by the bodyguard of President WT Cosgrave who were based in Oriel House on Holy Thursday 29/03/1923.
Anyone come across references to Bobbie in your researches? Any scraps of information that you can give me would be most appreciated.
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Hello mmckenna and welcome to the site, if you go back to pages 30,31,32 of this post, you will see watchman has done some stirling work and research on the Citizen Defence Force and Oriel House, contact him , he may be able to give you more information, I have not come across your relative in my research, good luck and keep trying.
CSM
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Thanks to the help of some members of this forum and others, I have been able to discover quite a bit about Robert "Bobbie" Bonfield, at the time of his death on 29/03/1923 he was the O/C of G Company, 4th Battalion, 1st Dublin Brigade.
I am looking for information on the activities of G Company both during the War of Independence and later in the Civil War. Did the formations stay much the same after the 'Split'? Would he have been in G Company prior to the Civil War or was there much reorganisation of the units?
In particular I am looking for descriptions of any actions that G Company were involved in.
Bonfield was arrested on 07th March 1923 by a Lieut. Bolger after his house at 103 Moyne Road, Ranelagh was raided and a veritable arsenal (including a Lewis Gun and three revolvers) were siezed. He was taken to Portobello Barracks from where he subsequently escaped a couple of nights later.
He went to the house of schoolmates of his, Brendan and Kevin Mangan, at Albany Terrace, Ranelagh and had a wash and some food before going on the run. A 'servant girl' who had helped give him the meal probably reported him to the authorities. The following night the Mangan's house was raided by " a group of men in plain clothes accompanied by a man in the uniform of an Army Lieutenant" who were looking for Bonfield.
Brendan Mangan was taken to the back garden and interrogated. His parents attempted to intervene and when his mother asked why he was not arrested and charged in the 'proper way', the chilling reply was "We are out to execute, not make arrests".
Mangan's excuses were believed and the group left, which was rather lucky as Bonfield had hidden arms under the floor of the Mangans henhouse and Brendan was aware of this. The Mangans kept the guns hidden for many years and later when the family moved house Brendan transferred the guns to the henhouse at their new address. It was only years later when there was an amnesty that his brother Kevin handed in the guns.
On the 29th of March 1923, about 2 weeks later, Bonfield was lifted by Cosgraves bodyguard which included Joe McGrath, John O'Reilly (who was either a Col., a Cmmdt., or a Superintendent) and an unnamed guard. Two of these men took him to Clondalkin and shot him.
I would like to identify Lieut. Bolger who was probably based in Portobello Barracks and also Col/Cmmdt/Supt O'Reilly. Any help would be most appreciated.
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Was a higher standard of proof required for anti treaty veterans who applied for a military pension than for pro treaty veterans? I ask because I recently got a copy of the pension application of John O'Reilly (pro treaty) who served in Q Company. The accompanying note from the VAS, Dept. of Defence states that pension applicants had to suuply a detailed account of activities claimed. John O'Reilly's application simply gives the dates he served in Q Company, the name of his OC, Archie Kennedy and the names of 3 referees; Maj. Gen. Sean McMahon GHQ and Comdt. C. Carberry and Capt. Peter Pedereschi of Island Bridge Barracks which to mind my does not constitute a detailed account. I'm quite disappointed in the lack of detail.
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Sandlotball.
I have some information on Noel Lemass which you may have picked up already. He was a brother of the late Sean Lemass and was wounded in the foot during the Easter Rising. He was with the other prisoners in Richmond Barracks, as he was unable to walk some of the other prisoners had to carry him to the latrines. Subsequently he became an officer in the IRA, but during the Civil War he was shot and his body was found in a lonely spot in the Featherbed Mountains.
Shiraz
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Hello JohnMB, you should not feel disappointed in the lack of detail, the names he gives as references -
Archie Kennedy
Maj. General Sean McMahon
Comdt. C.Carberry
Capt.Peter Pederechi
These were all upstanding men and would have known what John O,Reilly had done in "Q " Co. You did not have to give a detailed account, but if you did, it helped to speed up your application, perhaps John thought that he did not have to justify what he had done, but if the Pension Board wished to contact the above named references to check that he was entitled to a pension, that was enough.
Did the P.A. state how much he was entitled to and what were the dates ?
CSM
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Hi CSM,
The Board of assessors determined his service for pension purposes to be from 1 Apr 1921 to 30 Jun 1922 in Oglaigh na hEireann and from 1 Jul 1922 to 30 Sep 1923 in the Defence Forces. The Military Service Pensions Branch of the Department of Defence posted an Award Certificate (No 2146/SP/12108) on 12 July 1929 to John O'Reilly granting him a Pension in accordance with the terms of the Military Service Pensions Act, 1924 of 47 Pounds, 16 Shillings and 2 Pence per annum payable from 15 June 1929 in recognition of his service during the Anglo-Irish War. John O'Reilly's pension was twice as large as that granted to his step father, James Cunningham who served from 1916 to 1921. The VAS wouldn't release the details of James's pension application to me because of the digitisation project underway for the 1916 centenary of the military pension applications it holds. For me the really useful item of info released to me was John O'Reilly's naval service number which I didn't previously have. Without it teh Military Archive couldn't previously find a file on hisnaval service between 1939 and 1945. I may find it now.
John MB.
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Sandlotball.
I have some information on Noel Lemass which you may have picked up already. He was a brother of the late Sean Lemass and was wounded in the foot during the Easter Rising. He was with the other prisoners in Richmond Barracks, as he was unable to walk some of the other prisoners had to carry him to the latrines. Subsequently he became an officer in the IRA, but during the Civil War he was shot and his body was found in a lonely spot in the Featherbed Mountains.
Shiraz
Shiraz
Thank you for that info. I did learn Noel was Sean's brother & was killed in the Civil War. Would you happen to know the dates of his time in Richmond ?
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Sandlotball
I can give you some idea of dates, my uncle who was 15 at the time had been taken prisoner in City Hall initially he was in Ship Street Barracks and then transferred to Kilmainham. He was there the week of the executions and was transferred to Richmond Barracks on the Sunday 8thMay (?) . Initially Noel Lemass was upstairs with a group but his angle wound had turned septic and the others had to carry him to the latrines. He got very little sympathy from his jailers. After a while he was moved to the ground floor. My uncle was with a party of the younger members who were released a day after the men had been marched off to the North Wall for shipping to England. I think it was probably about the 14th May. Sean Lemass was released with my uncle and about four/five other young lads. I would imagine after the prisoners had been moved the military would have treated Noel for his wound.
Shiraz
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Thanks for filling me in on that Shiraz
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Hi everyone,
I have being reading this thread with great interest, and finding the links and information fascinating.
I was wondering if some of you good people could help me get to the bottom of what my Grandfather may have being doing during the War of Independence and the Civil War. We know very little was known about his movements until we found that there is a file of his on display in the National Library
His name was William Warren, Born in Kingstown 1896
He was in the Royal Irish Fusillers until 1920
He then held the rank of Sgt in B Coy 2nd Batt Dublin
The papers include in his file in the National Library
Include a list of Customs House Arrest. Nominal Role
and witness reports of a shooting on Capel St Sept 1922
Among other papers
here are two links to more detailed summaries of what is in his files
National Library
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000260528
and Auction Cat No 163
http://www.adams.ie/BidCat/Catalogues.asp?F1=3072&F2=4169&status=A&F4=0&select=7022&offset=150
I haven't had a chance to view these papers and it has only come to light recently, it also appears that he remained a soldier until 1968, which none of us in the family we aware of.
If anyone could help in shedding some light on this, it would be very much appreciated, I'm afraid my knowledge of that period in history is very limited and rusty and I'm trying to brush up on it how.
Thanks in advance
Don Rorke
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Hi
would anyone have a list of men who were in
C company second batt. old IRA
please
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Hello John MB, just enquiring how you have progressed with information on " Q " Co.
If you haven't allready come across the website, there is some very interesting articles on " Q " Co. on -
www.thompsongunireland.com
CSM
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Thanks to Shanew147 for pointing out that I put up the email address instead of the website for more information on
" Q " Co. Dublin Brigade
http://thompsongunireland.com/
CSM
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Hello John MB, just enquiring how you have progressed with information on " Q " Co.
If you haven't allready come across the website, there is some very interesting articles on " Q " Co. on -
www.thompsongunireland.com
CSM
Hi CSM,
I haven't made a huge amount of headway. John O'Reilly's military pension application didn't contain any particularly useful info about his Q Co. activities. He stated in his file in the Military archive, Cathal Brugha Barracks that he worked for Michael Murphy Ltd. I don't know whether the SS Baltic and the other ship mentioned in the Thompson site were Murphy ships. John explicitly stated that that he worked on the SS Finola.
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E. and M. Companies
3rd BATTALION OLD I.R.A.
Dublin No. 1 Brigade - 196 Pearse Street
- NAMES OF DECEASED MEMBERS -
Jack McGowan
- I am particularly interested in the names in bold print -
sandlotball, John 'Jack' McGowan was a Volunteer from the Skerries area. Local historian Frank Whearity wrote a paper on McGowan a few years ago and presented it to the local historical society. You can contact the society for a copy of the paper, and here's a summary of it. :)
http://www.oldskerries.ie/rept0601.html
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Hi CSM,
I haven't made a huge amount of headway. John O'Reilly's military pension application didn't contain any particularly useful info about his Q Co. activities. He stated in his file in the Military archive, Cathal Brugha Barracks that he worked for Michael Murphy Ltd. I don't know whether the SS Baltic and the other ship mentioned in the Thompson site were Murphy ships. John explicitly stated that that he worked on the SS Finola.
John, not sure is it of any use to you, or have you uncovered much information already but by great-grandfather, John 'Archie' Kennedy was Captain of Q Company, and I came across someone on this board who knew him personally: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,566136.0.html
I just noted you mentioned Kennedy seems to have been down as a reference in O'Reilly's military pension application.
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Hello mmckenna, came across a reference to your relative Bobby Bonfield in a book I am reading , - Man of no Property by C.S.Andrews
Quote -
We often spoke of Bobby Bonfield who had been a popular and highly regarded member of our class at school and had been murdered by some of W.T. Cosgroves bodyguard during the Civil War. Bobby had a peculiar talent; he could imitate anyones handwriting to perfection.
If a parents letter had to be produced to excuse an absence from school, Bobby could always oblige. We also talked about Paddy Mannion, another friend and classmate of our early years, who had left school when he was fifteen. He was shot out of hand at Baggot Street Bridge by a Free State murder gang. Bonfield had been an only son. Mannion had been an only child.
These deaths were typical tragedies of the Civil War which were impossible for us to forget
CSM
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I have just learned that My Grandfather, Michael Glennon from Dublin was in the Old I.R.A, and was involved in the springing of 6 I.R.A prisoners from Strangeways Jail, Manchester in 1919 - would appreciate any advice on how I could get more information please.
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hi cousin liam here
See my reply re no 8/no 12 tritonville road
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E. and M. Companies
3rd BATTALION OLD I.R.A.
Dublin No. 1 Brigade - 196 Pearse Street
- NAMES OF DECEASED MEMBERS -
Jack McGowan
- I am particularly interested in the names in bold print -
sandlotball, John 'Jack' McGowan was a Volunteer from the Skerries area. Local historian Frank Whearity wrote a paper on McGowan a few years ago and presented it to the local historical society. You can contact the society for a copy of the paper, and here's a summary of it. :)
http://www.oldskerries.ie/rept0601.html
Hi GerShannon
Thanks so much.
I got a copy of Frank's paper a few years back, (as well as his paper on Terry Sherlock, related to me by marriage). The Skerries Historical Society has terrific & helpful people who have provided a multitude of info to me over the years.
Since the time I originally started this thread, I learned Jack McGowan was not only a cousin of my grandfather, he was my father's Godfather.
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Hi folks I am looking for info on my gr granmothers brother Michael O ODonnell, i believe that he was involved with the IRA in dublin in 1916. He was born in belfast in 1897/8. He was in dublin at around this time. He was in prison on two occassions one in 1914 for being in possesion of a bicycle he give his address as High street dublin and ended up in mountjoy. He again was in mountjoy in 1920 for the offence of stealing a bicycle. Any info reguarding this matter would be of great help.
many thanks jim
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An Old Role from B Coy 2nd Battallion
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Brilliant picture David - haven't seen that before. Do you know if similar ones were done for the other Battallions? - Have been trying to get a similar listing of the 2nd Battallion. thanks
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Sorry Liam
Just this one of the 3rd. I had as my dad Haydn Corri (mis-spelled here as Hayden Corrie) was in B Company 3rd Battallion.
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Fantastic David ! I seen one for C coy 4th Battalion & has my Great Uncle listed on it . Someday I hope to find one for A Coy 3rd battalion which may list my Grandfather William Deering as a member! Did you see Billi Corri turned up on a reunion picture of the ASU at the Custom House, its posted on facebook in the Custom House group.
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Here is a photograph of the 4th Battalion, Dublin Brigade, Honour scroll in Kilmainham
(http://www.militaria-archive.com/museums/kilmainham-pt2/content/bing/images/large/Kilmainham_July_16th_2011_08.jpg)
I have started a thread here if anyone would like me to find their relatives names from this Battalion on this scroll :
http://www.war-talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=321
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Hello wanted to reply as the boy in question robert bombfield was my grandfathers !st cousin and he went to the funeral . Although my grandfather has died I do know my mother has the original news clipping and a photograph of him if this would be of any interest please contact me back ....guess we may be related so hiya cousin lol
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@ Shellybones - Many thanks for getting in touch. I sent you my contact details in a personal message, please check your inbox.
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Leinster Moderator
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@Shanew147 - thanks for that Shane.
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Hi Don Rorke,
I recorded my Mother speaking about the War of Independence. She was born in 1912 and died 2007.
She lived in Donnybrook, Dublin. She would have been about 9 years old in 1921. I have started to edit this recording and in the recording she mentions a "Willo Warren". I did a web search to find if such a person existed and I believe the person she mentions is probably William Warren. In the recording she says that she does not know anything else about the person and also notes that her older brothers "Mick" and "Paddy" also do not know anything else.
I can send you an mp3 file of the relevant piece of the recording (approx 3.5 min).
It is 3.259KB in size and I cannot attach it to this reply.
I hope it is your grandfather and that it is useful to you.
regards,
Brian Burke.
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Hi all,
First time on here. Looking for information on on husband's grandfather. All I have is:
i) my parents-in-law's marriage certificate, with the groom's father named as James Kavanagh;
ii) a photograph of an Irish officer (attached) - no name, but spitting image of my father-in-law;
iii) a photograph of my father-in-law visiting the grave of Annie Kavanagh and her son, Seamus Kavanagh, Capt in Old I.R.A.
I have uncovered after extensive (and none-too-successful) research:
a) 2 documents relating to a Capt Seamus Kavanagh, H company, 1st Dublin Brigade Irish Volunteers and I.R.A.;
b) 2 documents relating to another Capt Seamus Kavanagh, C Company, 3rd Batallion, Irish Volunteers.
These documents were obtained from the Bureau of Military History website. The photographs are family photos - hopefully will follow as a separate posting
My knowledge of Irish history is limited to what I have read, so any details of my grandfather-in-law's possible identity (is he either of the above captains?) would be much appreciated.
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Capt Kavanagh
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Seamus Kavanagh Grave - details on gravestone.
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If anyone is unaware of this, www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie contains the transcripts of the Witness Statements of those involved.
craggagh.
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Thanks, but that's where I got my information from, and have 2 people with the same name.
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Hello Jek248.
Have you tried writing to the Pension Administration Section, Renmore, Galway, it takes some time for a reply because they are inundated with requests but I have always found them to be most helpful.
You will need to give them as much information as possible, date of birth, the address he lived in the 1920,s, 30,s 40,s 50,s etc to see if he qualified for a pension.
Keep at it and good luck
CSM
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Do you have anything on a cousin of mine named Moylett? Thanks Bob
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Hello Bob, I checked through my reference books and did not come across a Moylett, do you have any more details ?
CSM
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Hello again Bob, not sure if this is who you are researching, in the excellent book " Michael Collins and the Anglo - Irish War " by J.B.E.Hittle a Patrick Moylett is mentioned
Quote - " Chicago Tribune reporter John Steele and London based Irish businessman PATRICK MOYLETT, who acted unofficially for the cabinet, began shuttling back and forth between Lloyd George and Griffith " un - quote
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Sorry I may have been mistaken. He may have been a part of the Sein Finn instead! Thank you anyway!
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Hello CSM
I have got information back from Renmore in the form of a letter my Grandfather Peter Smyth wrote in application for a service medal. in this he states he never applied for a pension
He states he joined D Company Batt 4 Dublin Brigade in Oct. 1917.
he goes on to say he trained in firearms at Larkfield Kimmage, Sand pits Crumlin and the Brick works on the Canal.
He carried police duties during the general election Helped in Filming of brirish colaberations and was one of the rifle guard at Thomas Ash's Funeral.
for 1919 he just states he carried out such duties as allocated to him
for 1920 he states Outpost deputy during raids for arms.
He was in the 26th. Batt ( Reserve )in 1941 when he made the application.
Military Archive in Rathmines wrote stating that there records were not complete and had no record on my grandfather.
Can anyone make sense of all of this.
Thanks
TVPetre
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Hello typetre.
You have made good progress and have uncovered some interesting facts and information on your grandfather, Peter Smyth.
He was a member of "D" Co, 4th Battalion, Dublin Brigade and joined in October, 1917
The Tenth Sinn Fein Ard - Fheis was held in the Mansion House on 25 - 26 October 1917, approx 1700 delegates attended, including members from 1009 Sinn Fein Clubs, the approx membership was almost 250,000.
Henry Edward Duke, Chief Secretary for Ireland 1916 - 1918 estimated that Sinn Feins membership was approx 200,000 in October 1917 ( ref - J.E.A.Connell jnr - Dublin in Rebellion )
Your grandfather could have attended and joined the Volunteers at the Ard - Fheis or because his friends had joined.
It was not unusual for volunteers to carry out police and security duties during elections.
If he was on rifle and guard duty at Thomas Ash,s funeral, that would have been a great honour
Not sure what to make of - "Filming of British Collaborations", unless he was carrying out police and security duties.
You should be able to find more information on the Reserve Force in 1941, they asked for old volunteers to join this Defence Force, there should be records on the 26th Batt, if not on your grandfather.
It was also not unusual at the time not to apply for a pension because there was still a deep political divide amongst pro and anti - treaty volunteers, and some may have tried and gave up or they couldn't, be bothered.
Your grandfather, from his records, would have qualified for a pension, I do not think you will ever find out the reason why he didn,t apply, unless there is anyone alive of your relatives you can contact who might be able to shed some light.
You could also look through the posts or enquire for more information on anyone else who had a family member in " D"Co. 4th Battalion, Dublin Brigade.
Good luck
CSM
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I found a relative of my OH that I haven't investigated fully as yet Tobias Leo Fox (ka Leo)
From information from his nephew he was involved in much and jailed in Kilmanham; he has a postcard from there of him; but he supposedly "faught for his country, not for a pension"; he died in the 1950s in relatively hard times.
He never applied for pension
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Hello myluck, you are quite right in what you say, there was many an Irishman and woman who were entitled to a pension but, who were proud people and did not apply, no matter how difficult or hard their lives had become, the extra few punts would have made a difference in their final years, and I respect their decision.
God Bless them all.
CSM
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Hi My father, Charles Morris, 4th Battalion, No 1 Dublin Brigade, g company was interned in Gormanstown and Ballykinlar 1921/1923. I have two sets of diary's with plenty of names of fellow internees which I will put up on here when I get use to attachments. Hope this one helps.
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Hi My father, Charles Morris, 4th Battalion, No 1 Dublin Brigade, g company was interned in Gormanstown and Ballykinlar 1921/1923. I have two sets of diary's with plenty of names of fellow internees which I will put up on here when I get use to attachments. Hope this one helps.
Any chance of you putting up the reverse side of the 4th. Batt. memoriam card? Thanks.
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Watchman1, Sorry I cannot help you further. I got this copy from the Kilmainham jail archivist as it gave me the info I requested she only sent me this side. You may have to write to them.
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E Coy 3rd Batt.
I need some help deciphering the 2 Lieutenants:
Captain Michael Tannam
Lieutenant Hugh ?
Lieutenant ? J. Morrissey ?
If someone is familiar with these three men, or can refer me to a link with information on their actions during the WOI, I would be extremely grateful.
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E Coy 3rd Batt.
I need some help deciphering the 2 Lieutenants:
Captain Michael Tannam
Lieutenant Hugh ?
Lieutenant ? J. Morrissey ?
If someone is familiar with these three men, or can refer me to a link with information on their actions during the WOI, I would be extremely grateful.
You can get information on Liam and Michael Tannam from Witness Statement 242 and Witness Statement 487. They were in "E" Coy, 3rd. Batt under Dev. Noel Lemass was also in that unit. There is a mention of James Morrissey in WS 601.
Regards,
Watchman1
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Thank You very much watchman.
I've heard some stories about Noel Lemass & my grandfather, so I knew Lemass was in the unit.
Does anyone recognise the 2nd name - Hugh ...?
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Hi
Im new to this site and was wondering if anyone can give me any information on this cert. Can't find any info on James Horan anywhere.
Also has anyone any pictures of members of the ASU. My mothers uncle George Nolan is listed as a member.
Thanks
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Hi, looking for info on John Browne, John brown, Sean brown, or Sean de bruin of 1st Battalion Dublin Brigade. He is mentioned in WS334 as working in gaiety theatre, many thanks.
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Hi, PCOB - check out the witness statements in Bureau of Military History. There are a number of references to a James Horan in Limerick / Tipperary. Also, there is a full statement (no. 596) by George Nolan who was in the ASU.
Have come across some pictures of some of the ASU in subsequent anniversaries, etc. Will try & recall where I saw them & see if George Nolan was in them....
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[/quote]
Gary, Just looked at the list and Leo Murray is there beside the man that died with him -Rodney Murphy. They were killed on 2 September 1922 at Stillorgan.
[/quote] Hi gary was just reading through and came across have you any information on these 2 men as they where my grandfathers cousins.
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Hi lads,
I'll tell you briefly about Murray and Murphy. Murray was from Dun Laoire and Murphy was from Deansgrange. They ran a very successful resistance to the Free State forces out in that district. In the 'Tan' war they were also very active. Their commanding officer, Andy McDonnell, once said that they had come to him with a plan to shoot some Tans. They were given a rifle and ten bullets to do the job and they later did the business and returned the rifle and eight bullets.
The CID from Oriel House tried to arrest them in August 1922 and they were repelled, resulting in one of the CID men receiving a mortal wound. A heavier gang of Free State officers was now brought in, 'the shoot to kill gang'. Murray and Murphy were located at the gate lodge of a large house at Stillorgan and murdered there. The officer leading the staters was the son of Eoin McNeill, minister in the Free State Government.
These are the basic facts. I recommend that you go to the Gilbert Library at Pearse Street and get out the microfilm of the daily papers of the dates. This will give you a better picture of the events.
There is also a book on the shelves about the history of deansgrange cemetery and there is a photograph of Murphy in it.
Regards
Watchman1
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Jasus,this is great mate,thanks alot, great to read this.If you find anymore on them let me know.
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Damo,
Go to Wikipedia and read the 'Oriel House CID' article and it will put you in the frame. It will also give you dates and places of the 25 Republicans assassinated in the Dublin area in 1922/23.
Regards,
Watchman1
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Hello everyone.I have spent last hour or so reading this thread.It really is fascinating reading with all your information.Can I pose a question.
My grandfather took anti treaty side in Civil war ( his name was John Colclough).He was arrested in Oct 1922 at Amiens St and taken to Wellington Barracks.He is listed as being part of H Company third Battalion.He was transferred to Harespark Camp in the Curragh in Nov 1922 and I have a record of him being there still in feb 1924 ( with F.D.R initialed against his name - I am told this might mean Further detention required).I have no record of his release date.
I got all of this information from the military archives where they were really helpful.
Can anyone throw any light on H CO. or third battalion or any other members etc etc .or maybe anything about Harespark.
Interestingly his brother Philip Colclough is listed in the Army census for Nov 1922 as being stationed in Naas
My family know little or nothing about this time as it was never spoken about .I am trying to find out anything for my own father.
Thanks in anticipation!! and keep up all the good work
i Should add , he did have a small military funeral ( not Free State) ,there is nothing on his gravestone and he didnt apply for a pension in the 1930s
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Came across this site by accident , Bill Corri brother of Hayden would have been my Grandfather, my mothers father, I remember the picture with De Valera from when I was growing up
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Unfortunately that's not the same James Horan. I have found the witness statement for George Nolan. Interesting reading :) Be great if you could find some photos of him. Thanks
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Came across this site by accident , Bill Corri brother of Hayden would have been my Grandfather, my mothers father, I remember the picture with De Valera from when I was growing up
Hi John Holland,
Did Hayden Corri live in Pearse Square? I recall coming across that name whilst researching another person.
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Hi watchman , yes thats were they were brought up, my mother used to go in with her father bill every sunday to see my great grandparents, she'd know the exact adress.
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Hi watchman , yes thats were they were brought up, my mother used to go in with her father bill every sunday to see my great grandparents, she'd know the exact adress.
Hi John Holland,
I,ve been up to my attic rummaging and I found the reference to Hayden Corri. Years back I was researching in the National Archives and I came across an interesting envelope of Special Branch photographs of IRA members c.1930. There is (was) eight photographs in all. When I asked was he living in Pearse Square I was mistaken, I was mixing him up with a Fred 'Boner' Lawlor who lived at that address. From memory, I think Hayden Corri lived at Pearse Street (I cannot recall where I got that from, maybe it's on the back of the photographs) I read a lot of republican/left wing material at the time and something impressed these addresses on my mind. One of the photographs is that of a Willie Rowe. Willie was on the ASU in 1921 and was in 'E' Coy. 3rd Battalion. He was also a brigadier in Na Fianna and was anti Treaty and was interned. It's a funny old world, here he is being hunted by the Special Branch in 1930 and in 1934 he becomes a 'Broy Harrier', hunting down his former comrades.
Hope I've been of assistance. If you want a reference for those photographs, send me an email via the moderator.
Watchman1
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Came across this site by accident , Bill Corri brother of Hayden would have been my Grandfather, my mothers father, I remember the picture with De Valera from when I was growing up
Hi John Holland,
Did Hayden Corri live in Pearse Square? I recall coming across that name whilst researching another person.
Hayden (actually Haydn aka Aiden) Corri did live in Pearse Square. He was descended directly from the Scottish born Italian Haydn (the composer Joseph Haydn was his godfather) Corri who was the first organist at the pro-cathedral.
While not in the ASU Haydn was part of the extended Bloody Sunday crew stationed in the Mount Street and Canal area. He was one of the first to be identified along with Tom Whelan. They shared time in Ballykinlar. Tom naively accepted recall and executed. Haydn refused recall and adopted various aliases e.g. Owen Slowey, Terry Rooney and permanently David Golden (after whom I'm named) within Ballykinlar.
Haydn and his brother Bill took opposing sides in the Civil War. Bill was the Governor of Kilmainham jail while Haydn was a prisoner.
To their credit they were reconciled after the war while maintaining their points of view.
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Hi
Im new to this site and was wondering if anyone can give me any information on this cert. Can't find any info on James Horan anywhere.
Also has anyone any pictures of members of the ASU. My mothers uncle George Nolan is listed as a member.
Thanks
There you go ASU Reunion, includes Bill Corri, George Nolan, John Wilson (later Squad) Bill Stapleton (Squad) Etc I have a cleaned up version too.
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Hello wanted to reply as the boy in question robert bombfield was my grandfathers !st cousin and he went to the funeral . Although my grandfather has died I do know my mother has the original news clipping and a photograph of him if this would be of any interest please contact me back ....guess we may be related so hiya cousin lol
@Shellybones - I have tried contacting you here several times since you posted last year re. Robert (Bobbie) Bonfield. Please get in touch cousin, I have information about him which you would find very interesting.
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I came across this site by accident & have found it very interesting .
I'm looking for info on 'D'comp. 3rd Batt Dublin Brigade IRA . My grandfather William Doyle was Company QMS & armourer, he later joined the Free State Army & by 1924 was Asst. Chief Armourer in Islandbridge Barracks where I think his brother Jack was chief Armourer . His brother in law James Matthew Leavy was also an Army officer & was killled in 1922( prior to that he was involved in the House Painters Union). Through family history research I've discovered that Matthew Leavy was a first cousin of Dudley Carroll ('B' Comp 3rd Batt 1916-1916) & that Dudley Carrolls sister was married to James Mallon ('B' Comp. 3rd Batt 1916-1921).
I've got records from Dept Defence stating that William Doyle worked as an armourer in his own home & worked on munitions in his own home between 1918-1921.
Sorry for the long-winded post but any info on the any of the above people would be appreciated.
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Hi Ger,
I believe I can help.
Immediately prior to the Truce, B Coy. 4th. Battn. Dublin Brigade Old IRA was under the command of Capt. Ben Brady. Second and third in command was 1st. Lieut. Brian Leahy and 2nd. Lieut. Mick Gaynor.
I am aware that of the nine names you mentioned seven were members of B Coy.. The exceptions are P. Lanigan of whom I have no information and M. White. According to my sources, there were two members called White, Ed and Peter.
If you let me know the specific details you require, I will try to assist further. I hold the Roll of B Coy.
If the information you quote is from a publication, I would be very interested to know the source, as I am a son of a member. (I am probably correct in stating that I belong to an older generation than you!)
Regards,
Padraic
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Hi Padraic,
My information on 'B'Coy. is as follows;
O/C Liam McDonagh
Lt. McCormack
This company covered the area from Kellys Corner to Clanbrassil street and the area northwards.
HQ was in a house at Francis Street.
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Hi Watchman1,
I believe we are both correct.
The information which you supply is verified by Joseph Kinsella's W.S. 476.
My information is that William Mc Donagh was succeeded by Robert Byrne as O/C in December 1920. The latter was in command until April 1921 at which stage he was succeeded by Bernard Brady as O/C. Capt. Brady was in command until July 1922. I hold copy of correspondence from all three of these gallant men which supports this statement.
Regards,
Padraic
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Hi again Padraic,
Thanks for sorting that out for me. It's a fascinating subject and much information will surface in the coming years.
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Hi All
Only discovered this forum while I was researching my family tree. I have some documents from my grandfather when he was applying for his pension from the state in the 1930s. He was on active service from 1917 to 1922 in the no. 3 section C company third battalion under Joesph O'Connor. He outlines some of the activities he took part in but I love to know if anyone has any information on this company. His name is Michael McCabe and I believe he was acting squad leader at the time of the truce.
Any information would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
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Hi Padraic,
Many thanks for your mail - I only figured out now that I cannot send you a PM as I am still a newbie on this forum so I need a few more posts. I relation to your query I believe reading his letters and what I know of him, my grandfather was the latter of the two Michaels. I am trying to get some more information from the pension board as you suggested as well as family. I will keep you posted of any updates if it was indeed that latter Michael you were interested in.
Many thanks
Maria
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Hi Maria,
Thanks for your reply.
I shall be very interested to hear how you get on.
Best regards,
Padraic
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Not sure what to make of - "Filming of British Collaborations", unless he was carrying out police and security duties.
CSM
This relates to the victory parade held in Dublin on 19th July 1919 to celebrate the ending of WW1. I think approx 16,000 British soldiers marched through the centre of Dublin. 8000 active soldiers and 8000 veterans of WW1.
Some leading IRA figures wanted to stage a mass attack on this event but it was vetoed by others. Instead all the Dublin Battalions were tasked with destroying film reels and the photograph film belonging to journalists who were covering the event. The day itself was being used by pro British elements as a propaganda tool to demonstrate to the world where the sympathies of the people lay.
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There was a Leo Murray in the ASU , he was dead by the time the ASU list was compiled in the 1940`s/early 50`s which includes WOI & CW dead on the list, Vinnie Byrne & Charlie Dalton would have been around the 19 mark in 1922 so age does not come into it.
Ok Gary, We'll just leave the question open and keep it in mind if anything comes up. I must go back and look at that list, I think it's on page 29
Gary, Just looked at the list and Leo Murray is there beside the man that died with him -Rodney Murphy. They were killed on 2 September 1922 at Stillorgan.
"Rodney" Murphy and Leo Murray were both members of the Deansgrange "F" Coy, 6th Battalion, Dublin Brigade, IRA.
In March 1921 Tommy Murphy (Foxrock Hotel) was murdered in his bed by Black and Tans from Cabinteely RIC barracks. Andy McDonnell O/C 6th Batt detailed two of his men (Leo Murray and Rodney Murphy) to go out and not return until a suitable response to this had taken place. They shot dead two Black and Tans at Cabinteely shortly after.
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hi Crownprincess, i have just joined and reading through all the posts for OLD IRA Dublin Brigade. My grandfather was also in D Company 3rd Battalion. His name was Michael Kavanagh. i have attached a list of all who served with him from an old document he had.
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Crown princess sorry i couldnt attach the list for D Company 3rd Battalion, the file is too big this page tells me. YOur grandfather is listed on it also.
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hi new to this site does any one have any info about my grandfather leo duffy he was in e company 2nd battalion he was captured in the custom house and jailed in kilmainham thanks sean
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Hello pato99
My grandfather, Michael Duffy, was also in E Coy 2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade, he helped to pick the men for the Custom House raid
I have checked before, but we are not related, I probably know as much about Leo as you do
I have seen a very fine photograph of your grandfather in Free State uniform
If you are not already aware, there is a talk on Thomas Ennis at the Custom House commemoration on Wednesday 25th May 2016, I will be going along, we could meet up if you are local
CSM
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hello csm thanks for the reply i think the photo you mention is the one were he is sat down and i think the other fella is j brennan i was told it was taken in glasgow dont know how true that is currently live in cardiff
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Try putting Leo Duffy into this search of witness statements, I didn't read the statements but looks like he is in a few.
http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/bmhsearch/search.jsp
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thanks for that sinann interesting read
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For pato99
Photo of Leo Duffy and my granddad taken in Killmainham Goal.
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From the autograph book in Killmainham Goal.
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Hello margnip2,
Hope you are keeping well
A great piece of family memorabilia and a bonus to see two members of E Coy. 2nd Batt. Dublin Brigade together in gaol
CSM
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Keeping well and yourself?
It is great having these images, although they are only photocopied from the original.
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All's well
The invitation to the Custom House Commemoration is open to your goodself, including any rootschat members who are interested, can`t remember if you are Dublin based, I am coming over from Birmingham, it's on Wednesday the 25th May
I was not aware this event existed until a very good friend of mine from Dublin told me, last year there were sons of some of the participants who attended, as you can imagine they were very elderly,and very proud of their relatives involvement, as we all are, not sure if they are able to attend this year, none of us is getting any younger
Good luck
CSM
Good luck
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oops Didn't realise you didn't know. We go every year, it's very good. There are usually talks after as well. This year as far as I know the talks will be inside the Custom House. We will be leaving for England that evening to visit family, talk about ships that pass in the night lol. Anyway it will be good to meet you. Didn't know you are fro Birmingham, we used to live near Tamworth. Small world.
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Hello pato99
Just to let you know there were two Leo Duffy's listed in the Army Census, a very good friend and researcher in Dublin, Des White, carried out some work for me last year to confirm that the Leo Duffy in the photograph you mentioned was in E Coy. 2nd Batt. as he was listed in a book as being in F Coy 2nd Batt. and caused some confusion
So be very careful checking the Witness Statements that they are the right Leo Duffy
At last years Custom House Anniversary, Des White met Leo Duffy's son, name of Peter, and Peters grandson, Christopher
Peter laid a wreath on behalf of E Coy, he also identified the man in uniform in the photograph as his father, Leo Duffy E Coy 2nd Batt.
You must be related to Peter & Christopher ?
CSM
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Hi folks,
I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the other Leo Duffy that was mentioned earlier-he's a distant relative of mine. I know he was from Monaghan, and from a few different reports, I can gather he was involved in some way in the first Bloody Sunday shootings; and then went to the match in Croke Park that afternoon.
I'm aware of the circumstances of his passing in 1938, but I was wondering if anyone could help me with where else I might find out more info on him from his IRA days? Especially as in most of the reports about Bloody Sunday, he's actually listed as Leo Dunne (it's a witness statement from a Ned Kelliher that states it's actually Duffy) and I'm wondering whether I should be trying to look up about Leo Dunne too?
Sorry if this is asking a lot, am just starting off on this branch of a family tree so to speak, and have no idea where else to begin. Many thanks!
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Hi,
My Grandfather, Mathew Tone Garland has an inscription on his gravestone "Late, 3rd Batt. Old I.R.A and I remember his funeral in 1969 when there was an Irish army honour guard. Any idea how I can find out more about the history of 3rd Battalion / Dublin Brigade?
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Hello VGarland, and welcome to the forum
Check out the BMH Witness Statements, and the Military Service Pension Collection
If you are not familiar with the above sites, put in 3rd Battalion Dublin Brigade, there is a wealth of information on this Batt. on the internet
Good luck and let us know how you get on
CSM
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Mathew Tone Garland doesn't seem to have made a pension application, but his brother Patrick did
http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/detail.aspx?parentpriref=
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Thanks for that! He never applied.....said he didn't fight for a pension, he fought for Ireland! My grand uncle Patrick's pension application makes interesting reading. I've also found some interesting reading online about Dublin Brigade 3rd battalion.
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To: Liam Galway
I have written a short book about Martha Murphy (nee Kelly) who was involved in the Easter Rising and subsequent conflicts. She was later granted a pension and her application was supported by written submissions from a number of supporters including a John (Jack) Grace who knew Martha and also her husband Michael Murphy who was in the 2nd Brigade. Please let me know if you would like a copy of the letter.
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Sue, very many thanks! Have read a lot of the pension applications but hadn't come across that one - it was great to see his handwriting again. Are you related to Martha? She sounds like a remarkable woman. Could you also let me know the name of your book as I would like to get a copy.
many thanks again
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Hi Liam
Sorry for the delay in replying. I've checked with my client who is Martha's granddaughter living here in Australia, and she is happy for you to buy a copy of the book. I write and produce books for clients and charge only printing costs for any books ordered. Martha's book is available through Blurb - an online bookstore - just search for Martha Kelly. Let me know if you have any trouble finding it and I'll send a link. The cost will be about $12 Australian, plus roughly the same in postage if you are in Ireland.
I'm actually fascinated by the process of the interviews that Jack did, especially the issues of awarding pensions to people such as Martha who had been fighting against the state in the Civil War. I loved reading the direct excerpts from the interviews which were the only hint of the real woman I portray in the book. There seemed to be hints of downplaying the role of women so it was wonderful to see someone like your grandfather smash that with his statement, especially given his position on the board. I was cheering him on from a distance of many years in the future :-)
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Hi Does anyone have any record of a Thomas O' Grady? Born 1902 in Aughrim, Wicklow then lived James St, Dublin. Known in family to be a member of IRA, the story is that as a result of his involvement and after a friend/contemporary was captured and killed, he left Dublin for USA in 1929 leaving behind his young family. Any information or advice on search welcome .
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To my thinking (happy to be corrected) the dates don't quite add up, once the Civil War ended in 1923, there wasn't much activity for his friend to get captured in.
Keep in mind that the British left in 1922 so if Thomas and his friend was still active in the 'Old' IRA after 1922 it means he was anti-treaty and his 'enemy' would be the Irish National Army/ Irish Free State.
I'm not saying the family story isn't true but it may turn out it lost something in the telling over the years.
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Thomas O'Grady and Family on 1911 Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003646899/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Aughrim/Aughrim_Town__part_of/895380/
And you have a Topic started on Thomas OGrady here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783303.msg6379613#msg6379613
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Thomas O'Grady and Family on 1911 Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003646899/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Aughrim/Aughrim_Town__part_of/895380/
And you have a Topic started on Thomas OGrady here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783303.msg6379613#msg6379613
Hi Chinapaddy, Thanks for your research, I do already have the Census info for his family, I just posted in this post because I was hoping for some info regarding the story of involvement in IRA. Apologies if unclear or posting in wrong place.
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To my thinking (happy to be corrected) the dates don't quite add up, once the Civil War ended in 1923, there wasn't much activity for his friend to get captured in.
Keep in mind that the British left in 1922 so if Thomas and his friend was still active in the 'Old' IRA after 1922 it means he was anti-treaty and his 'enemy' would be the Irish National Army/ Irish Free State.
I'm not saying the family story isn't true but it may turn out it lost something in the telling over the years.
Hi, thanks for this, as you can probably tell, my details are vague and my knowledge of events even vaguer. But I do have a recording, which lead me to believe the gist of story is based on a truth.
So I'm wondering if what you suggest is the case, are there any available record for people who were active in the 'Old' IRA after 1922?
I think I already know the answer but figure worth a shot.. Thank you
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That's the trouble with illegal organisations, only records tend to be when they get arrested, killed or name turns up in a book or the like.
If he served before 1922 he may have applied for a pension, they are not all online yet, it's a work in progress.
http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/military-service-pensions-collection
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If he served before 1922 he may have applied for a pension, they are not all online yet, it's a work in progress.
http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/military-service-pensions-collection
Thanks for the link, I’ll take a look, although as he never returned to Ireland, I doubt any pension was applied for. Just wondering would anyone be able to recommend a book, about IRA activities around that time, particularly interested in Aughrim area? Would like to get a better understanding of the life and times Thanks again
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Hello fabfamilytree,
I came across the following Witness Statements that mention a Thomas O'Grady, might be a long shot but worth checking out
W.S. REF - 1320 Michael J Ryan, Captain I.R.A. Galway 1921 mentions a Thomas O'Grady on page 15
W.S. REF - 1210 Michael Carroll member of I.R.A., Dublin 1921 mentions a T.O'Grady on page 9
W.S. REF - 1437 Thomas Nohilly, Captain I.R.A. Galway, 1921 mentions a Thomas O'Grady on page 9
There may be others
Good Luck in your research
CSM
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Hello fabfamilytree,
I came across the following Witness Statements that mention a Thomas O'Grady, might be a long shot but worth checking out
W.S. REF - 1320 Michael J Ryan, Captain I.R.A. Galway 1921 mentions a Thomas O'Grady on page 15
W.S. REF - 1210 Michael Carroll member of I.R.A., Dublin 1921 mentions a T.O'Grady on page 9
W.S. REF - 1437 Thomas Nohilly, Captain I.R.A. Galway, 1921 mentions a Thomas O'Grady on page 9
There may be others
Good Luck in your research
CSM
Thank you I have just located and saved them, had a quick read of first, was uncertain about Galway but see that one is set in Dublin..so possible. Either way, looks like a very interesting resource!
Thank you very much :-)
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Hi watchman , yes thats were they were brought up, my mother used to go in with her father bill every sunday to see my great grandparents, she'd know the exact adress.
Hi John Holland,
I,ve been up to my attic rummaging and I found the reference to Hayden Corri. Years back I was researching in the National Archives and I came across an interesting envelope of Special Branch photographs of IRA members c.1930. There is (was) eight photographs in all. When I asked was he living in Pearse Square I was mistaken, I was mixing him up with a Fred 'Boner' Lawlor who lived at that address. From memory, I think Hayden Corri lived at Pearse Street (I cannot recall where I got that from, maybe it's on the back of the photographs) I read a lot of republican/left wing material at the time and something impressed these addresses on my mind. One of the photographs is that of a Willie Rowe. Willie was on the ASU in 1921 and was in 'E' Coy. 3rd Battalion. He was also a brigadier in Na Fianna and was anti Treaty and was interned. It's a funny old world, here he is being hunted by the Special Branch in 1930 and in 1934 he becomes a 'Broy Harrier', hunting down his former comrades.
Hope I've been of assistance. If you want a reference for those photographs, send me an email via the moderator.
Watchman1
Hi Watchman1,
you are correct about Haydn and William Corri living at 135 Great Brunswick Street (name changed to Pearse Street in 1923). Their father Stephen was born at Queen Square (Name changed to Pearse Square 1924).
the Corri's living at Pearse Square would be related to Haydn and William. Their grandfather , landscape artist Valentine Corri, lived in Queen Square all his life.
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Hello fabfamilytree,
I came across the following Witness Statements that mention a Thomas O'Grady, might be a long shot but worth checking out
W.S. REF - 1320 Michael J Ryan, Captain I.R.A. Galway 1921 mentions a Thomas O'Grady on page 15
W.S. REF - 1210 Michael Carroll member of I.R.A., Dublin 1921 mentions a T.O'Grady on page 9
W.S. REF - 1437 Thomas Nohilly, Captain I.R.A. Galway, 1921 mentions a Thomas O'Grady on page 9
There may be others
Good Luck in your research
CSM
Thank you I have just located and saved them, had a quick read of first, was uncertain about Galway but see that one is set in Dublin..so possible. Either way, looks like a very interesting resource!
Thank you very much :-)
Don't forget to keep in mind what age he would have been at any given time they speak of.
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I have a copy of the mass card One side only
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My Dad, was Charles Edward Morris, lived at 130 then 74 Harold's Cross Rd, He was in the 4th Batt, No 1 Dublin Brigade G Company, He was interned in Ballykindlar, in Jan 1921 to Jan 1923, No 816 ,Hut 5, D Company, He was also interned in Gormanstown, No 172, No 1 Cook House, from 25 Jan 1922 till 7 Jan 1923, I have his diary's from both camps with lots of names of his camp mates, But nothing on his service, at all. has any one any info on him Please. He was born 21/10/1894, died 19/01/1953
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My grandad was James (Seamus) Kavanagh from 4 Coolevin Road, Dublin 8. He was born on 23rd July 1896. He was 18 years old when he cycled to Howth (on Dublin's North Side where I grew up) on July 26th 1914 with other volunteers and secured a rifle in the gun running from Erskine Childers yacht "The Asgard".
At the time of the Irish rising on Easter Monday 1916, James (Seamus) was a member of Boland's Mill Garrison where Commander-in-Chief of that garrison was Eamon DeValera. Interestingly, grandads best friend was Simon Donnelly also a volunteer and was one of the few who ever escaped from Kilmainham jail. A plaque to this effect in his memory is mounted in the jail at Kilmainham. Grandad was a fluent Irish speaker which I think was a requirement of the Irish Republican Brotherhood in the 1913-1916 period. This was an organisation then preceding the IRA. The reason for learning the Irish language was that if gave the members their own national identity. To this end fluent Irish speakers wore the Gold Fáinne in their lapels and less proficient members in their fluency wore a Silver Fáinne. My dad still has my grandads Gold Fáinne from that period.
On Easter Monday 1916, in the morning, Simon Donnelly and other volunteers called to my grandads house at 8 Bishop Street, Dublin. As grandad did not want to upset his mother, he told her that he, Simon and the others were going hiking and doing exercises in the Dublin mountains. Afterwards, in letters exchanged from his prison cell in Wakefield Prison England, grandad apologised to his mother for not telling her of his part in the Easter Monday Rising. On that day, grandad made his way with the others to Grand Canal Street, Boland's Mill, to meet up with the other members of his garrison and the O/C Eamon DeValera. From there he was sent to occupy an area at Mount Street bridge which turned out to be the most successful of the 1916 rebellion against the British. This area of the bridge and Northumberland Road, would have been a main route from Kingstown (now known as Dun Laoghaire) for the British soldiers arriving from England. This turned out to be the area of heaviest fighting with the most deaths - mainly the British "Sherwood Foresters" I am told. Grandad was eventually captured with other volunteers and marched to "Kingstown" for transport to England. He threw a small leather purse, en-route, to a crowd of bystanders with a note enclosed requesting, "Dear Friend - would you please bring this to my mother in 8 Bishop Street" informing her of his capture and safety. Dad still has this purse and its contents.
He was transported to Wakefield Prison and after some months was brought to Frongoch Internment Camp in Wales. The camp was originally built as a whiskey distillery and then used as an internment camp for German prisoners of war in WW1. It was badly burnt and not fit to house so many prisoners, rat infested etc. It consisted of a North and South camp. Grandad became a Captain in the South camp. It is interesting to note that Michael Collins was imprisoned there with grandad. As grandad was not an officer (to begin with) he could not attend officers meetings. It was in Frongoch camp that the IRA was first started. Dad has a lot of the letters exchanged between grandad and his mother at that time, all opened by the censor and needing approval before being passed to prisoners. Dad intends donating all this material to the 1916 museum at Collins Barracks in Dublin. Grandad was eventually released from Frongoch and returned to Dublin.
He was awarded three medals by the Irish Government:
1. 1916 Easter Rising
2. Black & Tan War 1916-1922
3. 1940 medal as Captain in the army
Grandad was requested by the Dept. of Defence to vet the applications for participants in the 1916 rising for veteran pensions. The Dept. of Defence must have valued his opinion and approval of these applicants. A lot of these letters of application are still in my dads possession.
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Hi JEK248, the photo of Capt Kavanagh is my grandad, James (Seamus) Kavanagh. When he became fluent in Irish he changed his first name (James) to the Irish translation (Seamus).
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The Seamus Kavanagh Grave photo is my uncle Brendan at his dads grave. I take it you are married to either Roy, Gloria or Paul?
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Probably a long shot here but I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the activities of the B Company 3rd Batallion Dublin Brigade during the War of Independance? I've only just found this thread by accident when I was directed to an image posted of the members of the 3rd Batallion but that post was back in 2012. My Great Grandad Patrick O'Neill was listed on the image as Patick. He would have only been 18-20 years old at the time. He never spoke of his activities during this time and I'd be interested in knowing more of what he might have been up to. His daughter, my Grandmother, was under the impression that he drove for Eoin MacNeill and even for Michael Collins on one or two occasions but after that we're completely in the dark on most of his early life.
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Hello SGWilliams and welcome to Rootschat
Have you looked at the military archives online
There are a few Patrick O'Neill's listed and if he is one you will be able to see his records
http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/brief.aspx
If he is here I suggest you also search the records of the people named as they often hold further descriptions and comments that can relate to others.
Not all are online yet - hope this proves fruitful!
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Have you seen the Custom House Commemoration Group on Facebook? The 3rd Battalion where involved so you can ask there and I am sure you will get replies for at least that.
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Hello SG Williams,
Check out the latest release from the Military Service Pensions Collection
http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/military-service-pensions-collection-1916-1923/release-history/november-2020-release
By coincidence, I was looking through the list and came across 4 no Patrick O'Neill's, all from the Dublin area
Patrick O'Neill - 24SP5010
Patrick O'Neill - 4P389
Patrick O'Neill - 4P366
Patrick O'Neill - 4P469
As mentioned above, the Military Service Pension Collection holds a wealth of information, and lists of members of the different companies of the Dublin Brigade
I wish you well in your research
Good Luck
CSM
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I have found a funeral notice for my granduncle Thomas Patterson(aka Sam) or Jackson said he was Old lRA. 4th Battalion C Coy. He was from Cork St just beside Emerald Square. Apparently he was in receipt of a military pension for his service. He would have been around 17 years of age in 1916. Does anyone have any details about 4th Battilion C Coy?
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Hello Dubchick,
Check out the Military Services Pensions Collection
IRA 2 EASTERN DIVISION - RO/1-9/20-25
Content - 4th Battalion, Dublin 1 Brigade (R0 5). Unit strength on 11th July 1921 was 934 all ranks, and the strength on 1st July 1922 was 451 all ranks. All of the companies of the 4th Battalion were located within the city of Dublin
If he applied for a Military Pension, you should be able to locate his file online
Good Luck
CSM
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Thank you Capel Streer Man.
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Hi, Some names from the 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade,
Lt James Bird, Capt Seamus Brogan, Staff-Capt Thomas Cullen, (F.R.I.A.I.), Capt Henry O'Farrell, Lt Frank Gallagher Lt Liam Lucas, Ned Devitt, Bob O'Donnell, Peter Keating George Hogan, Sean McCluskey, Stephen Coates,Jimmy Keegan, Billy Redmond, Jim Boyce, Jimmy Maher, Billy Charles, Jim Kinsella, Tom Burke, Paddy roberts, John Fynes, Jim (Kruger) Smithers . Mick White, F ( bONER) Lawor, Sean Kavanagh, Jim Boyce, Jack O'Connell, Christy Grimes, Sean Breen, Leo Purcell, Sean Harpur, Frank Birmingham, Ned Davitt. Arthur O'Sullivan, Paddy Hardiman, from Private 1st class..
I believe the Jimmy Maher mentioned here is my Grandfather James Maher. He lived and worked as a land steward on Merrion road.