RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: JillStatton on Monday 09 May 11 05:49 BST (UK)
-
Is anyone familiar with Walton Park Cemetery, Liverpool and can say where, in relation to the chapel, would be Row 14 in the "churchyard", grave no.70?
I do not for one moment think that my man would have had a headstone in 1863 (he had no issue and his wife died soon after in the Workhouse) but I would be grateful for approximate bearings. I do not even know where the chapel is situated in relation to Rice Lane.
Any help in this direction would be most welcome.
With thanks, Jill Statton.
-
Hi Jill
Its formal name was Liverpool Parochial Cemetery. It is normally reached from Hornby Road (south of the prison) as the parking is good. But there may still be an entrance from Rice Lane via Rawcliffe Road. It was across the railway from the old workhouse/hospital on Rice Lane.
If you search on Bing and select birds eye view you can see the chapel south of the entrance. This might work - http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?q=hornby+road%2c+liverpool&mkt=en-GB&FORM=BYFD
You put the cursor on London Street Map and select Birds Eye View from the bottom of the dropdown list.
Ken
-
contact
Cemeteries
Council Offices
High Street
Prescot
Knowsley
Merseyside
L34 3LF Tel: 0151 4435231
They should be able to put you in touch with the holders of the burial ground plan maps
-
Thank you, Ken. I haven't searched Bing maps before. The chapel looks the same shape as a photo I have seen, opposite Rawcliffe Road through the trees. Unfortunately no clear indication of where the "churchyard" graves might have been. "Churchyard" was the description in the Burial register for all graves for the period 1863-1864. I expect my man and his wife may have been buried in pauper graves. However, the Burial registers for 1863 and 1864 clearly state that it was the Walton Park Parochial Cemetery. Think possibly the Liverpool Parochial Cemetery was a more recent title.
Thank you also to dobfarm for address of the Council offices, which I will follow through for said plans.
Cheers, Jill
-
Good luck! in your search
;)
-
Jill..the 1860 Directory says Liverpool. But I am sure the person being buried raised no objection.
Dobfarm...that address is for Knowsley MBC.
Ken
-
I did say they should be able to put in touch with the holders but since found as link
http://www.liverpoolinprint.org.uk/guides/archive/burial%20records.pdf
http://liverpool-ancestors.co.uk/cemeteryrecs.htm
WALTON PARK, Parochial Cemetery, Rice Lane , Walton
Interment Registers 1829-1884
Register of Graves 1856-1908
Index to Burials 1867-1906
There seems alot of Workhouse burials 1863
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/waltonburials.html
-
Re title of the cemetery in question - I stand corrected.
I consulted the Liverpool burial registers (1813-1974) on ancestry which describe the said cemetery as Walton Park Parochial Cemetery. However each page of the said register is printed as follows:
1862-1864 - Free Parochial Cemetery, Rice Lane, Walton, Liverpool
1865 - Parochial Cemetery, Rice Lane, Walton, Liverpool.
I did not check further dates.
Ancestry and/or the custodians of the originals, probably called it Walton Park to differentiate between the other Liverpool cemeteries, eg.
Liverpool St Mary Cemetery
Liverpool St Martin in the Fields Parochial Cemetery.
Yes, Workhouse burials were at all of the abovementioned cemeteries in Liverpool for the various periods.
The registers for 1863 and 1864 for Walton Park cover several volumes, so I would prefer to use the printed title on the register than a Directory entry which I have found are not always accurate.
Hope this helps.
-
Hi Jill
I feel I should advise first!! to put in prospective.
Your request apart from maps and burial registers entries paper info! I think you will only find a grass field of pauper graves or photo of! in the end.
The record/archives offices are a bit pricey with search fees with or not a find. even more for people outside UK.
I don't want to put you off but! best be in the know.
Dobby
-
A mere thank you would have sufficed, rather than a lecture. May I suggest when you go to heaven you take it up with the person who compiled the 1860 Directory.
dobfarm..this forum is packed out with people who can only 'cut and paste'. But at least most of them manage to get the right council.
I have to say I would hate to have to sit on a bus behind you two discussing the weather.
-
Hi
What are you on about! ;D Weather
Dobby
Ps
I like people who make me laugh! a corker that on the! BUS :D Very Reg Varney. R.I.P.!
earwigging! naughty! ;) but nice.
-
I agree Dobby that my search of plans etc will probably prove useless. I was originally hoping that someone might have an interest in or have seen a plan of said Cemetery. Local knowledge is always invaluable.
Thank you and Ken again for your contributions. Think I've come to the end of this enquiry. Jill
-
Hi Jill,
Keep the thread open awhile! as I got to a seaside town Southport in the summer for day trips out! Just above Liverpool.
Dobby
-
A mere thank you would have sufficed, rather than a lecture. May I suggest when you go to heaven you take it up with the person who compiled the 1860 Directory.
dobfarm..this forum is packed out with people who can only 'cut and paste'. But at least most of them manage to get the right council.
I have to say I would hate to have to sit on a bus behind you two discussing the weather.
Asking around! as we say up North!(England) to find someone in the know from local knowledge! from people in the street or on the phone from staff of an organization asking if they know who/where is the most likely place to obtain information wanted! has brought me some very good results in the past. Thus intend to continue.
Maybe more time in the real world and less in the virtual! would bring back the old memories of finding info. Even on a bus. ;D
Dobfarm. :)
-
If you enter
Hornby Road, Liverpool in google maps
Find the prison in satellite view
The cemetery is just behind it, at the entrance is a big field with no gravestones! but can see the rows of graves! taking the first row will be row 1 and first grave no 1 in each row from the entrance maybe.?
If you get a grave map it may help overlay an approx aerial view photo impression of the decease's final resting place R I P
-
Hi Jill
I was at St Helen's transport museum yesterday and went to Walton cemetery after. The gate were locked as its Ricelane city farm now.
http://www.foodloversbritain.com/members/Rice-Lane-City-Farm/Rice-Lane-City-Farm/
If you write to them they may help you.
I managed to take a photo of the municipal pauper grave field through the fence, the chapel in the distance, the gate in next posts.
The field is quite quaint and be nice for a tree photo.
Dobby
-
The field does not look much but its it!
-
.
-
I was going to take a trip to this Cem. this week, have just discovered OH ancestor was buried there in 1883. Thanks for your pics and info dobfarm, it will save me a journey. ;)
-
Hi Jean
Since I made that trip to Liverpool I have found there is a another way in there by Rawcliffe Road at the end of is very small round about and graveyard behond but have to seen this entrance also there are some gravestones in the normal burial ground. Contact the Rice lane city farm for futher info but you could end up shearing sheep! so be warned ;D or on the cow stool :'(
Dave :)
-
Thanks Dobby, the ancestor died in the workhouse. The image of the register had "coroners order" written above, do you think I could get further info from this?
-
That info will be in the Liverpool archives or Preston county archives or newspapers or coroners court records. All expensive search fee unless you can go your self but with travels cost (Train)the latter could be cheaper. In Yorkshre it about £12 for a 1/2 hour (Will have find their charge)but they know where to look fast.
Contact local libraries first for newspapers
Contact that farm first they may still have records or know where they are
-
Thanks Dave, will take a trip to L'Pool soon and check out the newspapers. Appreciate your help.
Jean ;)
-
Thanks Dave, will take a trip to L'Pool soon and check out the newspapers. Appreciate your help.
Jean ;)
As said Phone that Farm first.
-
As Dobby suggests contact the farm, I recently made an enquiry and this is the information given.
Some of the land is being used by the Rice Lane City Farm which is a Community Project and one of the volunteers accepts specific requests for research for specific graves.
Firstly there is no official plan for the cemetery, however they do hold an informal plan, there are a number of avenues noted alphabetically and they believe they have approximately a 50% success rate.
It is recommended that you make contact by email - ricelanecityfarm@hotmail.co.uk and a Grave Reference is absolutely essential, not just a name and date of death. They will need a minimum of a couple of weeks to try to find any information for you, it's not a straightforward task for them, so don't just email and say you are visiting Liverpool tomorrow.
As they are a Community Project donations for any research undertaken are suggested and are always welcome.
-
Thanks MaryA, for that additional info & link. :) I found the coroners inquest in the 1883 Mercury which gives me a little more to work from.
Jean
-
Gets more interesting as we go ::) Did you go to L'pool library or get the coroner info off Gale 19th c Newspapers or Newspapers online
-
I went by bus to the museum 2nd floor, where they are keeping the records temporarily while the library is being refurbished~only had 1 hour on the reader, bit of a race but did manage to find a marriage for one of mine too. A successful trip.
The workhouse death was caused by excessive drinking~ inflammation of the lungs and only 23!
-
Thank you so much, Dobby, for the great pics of the cemetery. Am tardy in replying as my computer died and so only managing spasmodic email checks lately.
Liverbird09, you may wish to pursue the actual Coronial Inquest (probably held by the Record Office) which should furnish further details than most newspaper reports of Inquests. Witnesses will be included which will be either neighbours and/or family members, and much social detail can be gleaned from the circumstances surrounding the death, eg. How many people sleeping in the same bed, occupations and employers etc, from which you will get a very good picture of their lives. Generally well worth the effort.
-
Thank you Jill, I didn't know I could do that, must ask next time I go to the RO. His age is giving me problems as I can't seem to slot him into my OH's tree~having more info on him would be great in solving that problem. ;)
-
Hi Ladies,
Keep digging you never know what turns up! that then leads to other info!. Farms do breed things -Why not info. I must admit! that was a new for me visiting a farm for ancestry info
Good luck in your futher investigations.
Dobby
-
Hi,
Quite by chance I stumbled on RootsChat and the thread started in May by a lady in Australia. This happened because I too am seeking info about my grandfather. Hence, I pass on a few scraps of info that may be of interest.
Firstly, my grandfather was interred at Walton Park cemetery, Liverpool. But . . . wait for it . . . in 1973 ! Hence the cemetery was still in use at least up until that time. He too had a pauper's grave - at least that is how I interpret the term "public plot". He certainly died destitute.
Secondly, access is indeed through Rawcliffe Road, Liverpool; courtesy of Rice Lane City Farm. A lady (at the farm) called Lisa on 0151 530 1066 might arrange access.
Thirdly, I have a letter (dated 28th January 1994) from the doctor who signed my grandfather's death certificate on 22nd March 1973 in which he states "The Cemetery belongs to the Church of England, and the records are kept at St. Nicholas Church, Liverpool Parish Church, Old Church Yard, Chapel Street, Liverpool, 2." and further, "Mr. Alan O'Toole, who is in charge of Walton Park Cemetery, will send you a photograph of the grave if you get in touch with him."
That's as far as I've got. I hope to go very soon to visit the site. Hope that info interests someone. M.
-
The information may be a little out of date, however access is still gained via the City Farm, but if you want to find the grave as easily as possible please make sure you follow the suggestions made by The City Farm themselves, given in my message #24 on previous page http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,531354.msg3885676.html#msg3885676 and not just turn up unannounced expecting the details to be handy since the order of the graves is not easy to follow.
-
Hi Misterfyer- Welcome to Rootschat and I think you'll find it very useful
Your info looks great! to put in the picture of this thread as will help others in the future. All adds to the great info online! so it is of importance.
Regards Dobby
-
Have discovered that Alan O'Toole is no longer in the picture (probably died about 10 tears ago).
Also, the lady to contact at Rice Lane City farm is Roma, not Lisa. Roma located (almost) our grave within an hour or so.
Also, half the records are held by the Church of England and the other half by Liverpool City Records Office. I am visitiing tomorrow. M.
-
He too had a pauper's grave - at least that is how I interpret the term "public plot". He certainly died destitute.
People from the Liverpool Workhouse were buried at Walton Cemetery it was a parish cemetery so burials paid for by the parish took place there. Public graves at Walton would have been pauper graves. In other cemeteries public graves were paid for by the family as single interments.
C
-
One can get a better picture of the situation at Walton Park cemetery by GOING there, as I did yesterday (via Rice Lane City Farm, Rawcliffe Road). The researchers there are quite knowledgeable. The comment that information may be out of date is somewhat pointless, since that applies to all information. What is of more value is to have some idea of the actual probability of it being correct. Considerable research has been done at Walton Park cemetery, and this is in print. Whilst available information may not be complete and could also be flawed in some respects, it is better than speculation.
As I understand it, the cemetery dates back to the mid 19th century. There are something like 250,000 interments there. The cemetery is still in use today and there are occasional burials there. For the first 70 or so years of its existence proper plans of the site were seemingly not made, although the layout even from that time is fairly clear. However, since the early part of the last century plans were made and are in existence. Thus with a full plot reference it could be possible to exactly locate a grave site from this period. I say 'could' because there are areas of destruction (largely by trees) and also grassed over areas that would make it difficult to pinpoint a grave within more than a few metres. In some areas many of the masonry footings are evident and many headstones are still standing, although some have been moved either by vandals or by the authorities for reasons such as safety. These areas (of footings and headstones etc.) are not visible in satellite pictures because they are under well established wooded areas. One part of the cemetery in the NE corner (probably an area used in the 19th century) no longer exists as it was used to build housing for prison staff. This is visible in satellite pictures. Some of the grave footings bear the plot reference and some have the masons name, etc.
So much for the layout. As for WHO is buried there, the records are probably almost complete - although possibly many unnamed souls are buried there (but even these are probably still recorded). However, it is only since proper plans started to be made (about 100 years ago) that it might be possible to discover exactly WHO is buried exactly WHERE.
Although there are pauper's graves and workhouse graves at Walton Park cemetery, there are other types. I am not sure that anyone can be clear about the meaning of these terms. I'm not convinced that a "public plot" is necessarily a "pauper's" grave, or that it was paid for by the parish. I was told that a "public plot" was one that could be bought by the public for a sum between 5 shillings and 15 shillings (although I don't know when this was). It could be that part of the area is not simply a cemetery, but a 'churchyard' since at one time the chapel there was consecrated (it's not now). Is there a difference between a 'cemetery' and a 'churchyard'.
The grave reference I had was not complete. There are four elements to a full reference {avenue (A-Z)} {cardinal direction (North, South, East, etc.)} {section} {row}. I'm not quite sure which order they should be in, but I think that if you have them in any order it would be possible to make sense of them and find the grave. I only had "plot 11D". The 'D' gave me the avenue. '11' gave the section. I was missing the cardinal direction, so I didn't know which side of the avenue it was - it could have been either NE or SW in my case. And I was missing the row number - in my case there were 3 rows on each side of the avenue. I think the row would be given by a lower case letter, a through to f.
Good luck to others. M.
-
Roman Catholic Paupers
"The remains of genuine paupers - those who died in a Workhouse or hospital, or perhaps aboard a ship, and who had no relatives willing or able to claim their bodies and pay for the funeral - were buried at the expense of the parish. The earliest official Parish Cemetery was opened in 1806 and many of the victims of the Irish Potato Famine were buried there. Up to 1890 Catholic paupers were buried at the Parish Cemetery. After this date they were buried, at the request of the religious authorities, in the Catholic section of Anfield Cemetery."
Source: http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcburials/
Parish Cemeteries:-
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/deathinthepooloflife/parishcemeteries/
C
-
Thanks. I'm also curious about the term "public plot". Is this necessarily a pauper's grave?
-
Public graves are not necessarily paupers' graves. There are no paupers' graves in the Roman Catholic cemeteries of Ford and Yew Tree. The public graves there are single interments. The burial was paid for by the family but they did not buy the plot:-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~liverpoolindexes/facts.html
If you look at the Toxteth Park Cemetery website you will see both public and private grave records together in the one database including details such as addresses and occupations. You can see that there are people in public graves that were certainly not paupers. You can find out who else is buried in the grave whether they are family or strangers by clicking on the grave number:-
http://www.toxtethparkcemetery.co.uk/
I was looking at an image for Walton Cemetery on the burial records on Ancestry recently from 1915 and most of the people had died at the Liverpool Workhouse (Brownlow Hill) not the one you would expect West Derby Workhouse on Rice Lane. Walton was not a local cemetery for these people they had been buried there because of the arrangement the Workhouse had to bury "paupers" at the parish cemetery at Walton. People in the Workhouse were probably buried by the parish unless relatives made alternative arrangements.
C
-
There are a few 'prison' wardens buried there, as it is next door to Walton Prison - in Hornby Road
I really think it is not a cemetery but just a burial ground!!
I have just found that a very distant ancestor is buried there, and she was in the workouse 1891
as a needlewoman, but said to be infirm.
Joan B
-
With regard to Walton Parochial Cemetery, Liverpool, now operating as Rice Lane City Farm. I work at the farm and would refer you to my FaceBook page 'Rice Lane City Farm - A Personal collection of Photos and Videos.' If you scan down the page you will come across a hand drawn map showing the present layout of the farm/cemetery. There is also a lot of info about the farm/cemetery on the web - Robert Noonan aka Robert Tressell auther of the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist, James Carling, illustrator for Edgar Allen Poe and Ernest Freeman of the Titanic are some of the well-known people buried at the cemetery.
With regard to locating graves, we provide whatever assistance we can, but we are severely limited by a lack of available information. To my knowledge, the original plans and demarcations for the cemetery were detroyed during the second world war bombings.
There are large areas of the cemetery, particularly where mass internments of paupers, TB victims etc., took place, which have no graves stones or markings of any kind. I believe the cemetery was originally divided into four sections i.e. A, B, C, and D, which were further sub-divided into N, S, E, and W sections. However, based on confirmed grave identification numbers taken from War Graves (Listed by the War Graves Commission) located around the site, grave sections range from A through to Z. rows of graves are further identified by letters e.g. front row numbered 1,2,3..., second row numbered 1A, 2A, 3A..., third row 1B, 2B, 3b... and so on.
I believe the cemetery was deconsecreted in the 1970's, but because there are still family graves in use, burials have taken place after that time - The last burial was in 2009.
Incidently, the entrance to the cemetery is via the Rawcliffe Road Gate. The rear Dove Gate entrance on Hornby Road is kept locked for security reason - Don't park on Hornby Road, outside of Walton Prison as any vehicles parked there are regularly broken into.
Due to the difficulty in tracing graves it is strongly advised to phone with whatever info you have before visiting the farm. I am happy to report that we have helped people from across the world with locating graves at the farm. I am also happy to take photos of any grave located and e.mail them to interested persons. You can contact me via the farm on 0151 530 1066, ask for Kevin.
-
Thank you for that useful information Kevin, I hope you won't mind if I post a link to it on the Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS Forum.
-
My 2nd great grandfather william simmons is buried in walton park cemetery. He was buried there 1st apr 1881. grave area J7.
can i find any information on his burial.
-
Re William Simmons burial in Walton Park Cem. The burial registers are to be seen in
Liverpool Library There are two sections PAID and UNPAID.
As long as you have the date of burial it should be easy to find. There are not a lot of
headstones - as the poorest of people are buried there.
I can help if you wish.
Joan Borrowscale
-
Thank you joan
for your kind offer. The date he was buried was 1st Apr 1881. I think it was grave area j 7 .he died in the royal infirmary.
wayne
-
With regard to Walton Parochial Cemetery, Liverpool, now operating as Rice Lane City Farm. I work at the farm and would refer you to my FaceBook page 'Rice Lane City Farm - A Personal collection of Photos and Videos.' If you scan down the page you will come across a hand drawn map showing the present layout of the farm/cemetery. There is also a lot of info about the farm/cemetery on the web - Robert Noonan aka Robert Tressell auther of the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist, James Carling, illustrator for Edgar Allen Poe and Ernest Freeman of the Titanic are some of the well-known people buried at the cemetery.
With regard to locating graves, we provide whatever assistance we can, but we are severely limited by a lack of available information. To my knowledge, the original plans and demarcations for the cemetery were detroyed during the second world war bombings.
I believe the cemetery was deconsecreted in the 1970's, but because there are still family graves in use, burials have taken place after that time - The last burial was in 2009.
Incidently, the entrance to the cemetery is via the Rawcliffe Road Gate. The rear Dove Gate entrance on Hornby Road is kept locked for security reason - Don't park on Hornby Road, outside of Walton Prison as any vehicles parked there are regularly broken into.
Due to the difficulty in tracing graves it is strongly advised to phone with whatever info you have before visiting the farm. I am happy to report that we have helped people from across the world with locating graves at the farm. I am also happy to take photos of any grave located and e.mail them to interested persons. You can contact me via the farm on 0151 530 1066, ask for Kevin.
To whomever this may concern !
KEVI is no longer associated with the City Farm and any attempts to utilise his services as above will prove futile.
All is not lost however, there are moves afoot to rectify some of the neglect and maladministration of this site and its records. As of March 2014 an attempt has been made by some members of the Liverpool & S W Lancs FHS & others to interpret the remaining registers against the actual layout of the grounds and in due course,(hopefully this Summer),there will be a much better understanding and improved accessibility to those areas.
However it still has to be pointed out that most of the 'common' grave burials will be completely unmarked and will probably be no more than a patch of grass.
At the very least we are hoping that you might be able to see that exact grass patch for yourself when the project is finished ?
-
Looking forward to when this is done.
-
In the meantime while our project is underway. There is an interested group of local historians who have collected a vast wealth of general knowledge about the site and produced a very interesting 70 page booklet which is being made available through the farm itself or via their own website :-
http://waltononthehill.wix.com/liverpool#!publications/c5q5
-
I have only just found this website and so you probably have your answer but if not I hope this info helps you. I believe Walton park cemetry was a very small part of land which was owned by St Mary the virgin church (c of e) Walton on the hill. - St Marys is a high church which has/had many smaller ones 'under' it. When the port of liverpool began to expand it became too far for sailors to travel to St Marys - they went into the pub next door (black horse) and then would be late back to the boat. To stop all these problems a church was built in Liverpool called St nicholas (both still standing) the ownership of the cemetry was transferred to St nicholas where I believe it still is. If so the church would have records etc. The church of St Peter in Liverpool was demolished and all the graves (possibly thousands) transferred to Walton park cemetry, these look like two fields which have sunken in places. A lot of graves have sunken over the years. Yes there are lots of paupers graves as walton hospital and workhouse backs onto the site. There are also soldiers graves, Robert Trussell etc. Hope this helps you with your research
-
Thank you for your interest C and for your observations,although you will appreciate that a much deeper understanding is required to answer the question that most people have asked here, "where exactly is my ancestor buried"?
You will also appreciate that this is indeed an old "thread" and as such masks a considerable amount of work that has been done in the meantime.
I can say that I am now fairly confident I can determine the whereabouts of about 85% of those listed in the on line registers that are available.
What no one can hope to do is restore the past neglect of the place and like you said, a large area of the site is now 'woodland' with huge feral trees and shrubs occupying a considerable amount of the Southern end of the site, thus making access to some areas extremely difficult, most especially in summer.
There is still a lot to do and presently I am trying to decipher "re-location" registers and M.I records.
There is much to learn of what went on in there over the years.
-
Hi, not sure if I’m posting in the right place but here goes!
I’m trying to find someone that died I assume Walton hospital.... rice lane in the 50s.
I have death cert, but not sure where I go from there? :(
Can anyone help?
-
They could be buried at Anfield Cemetery you could try contacting Friends of Anfield:-
https://friendsofanfield.com
Blue
-
Although this cemetery was closed in 1948 for reasons of "no further capacity" there certainly were 'new' burials that took place as recently as the 1970's.
May I suggest that you join the Liverpool Family History forum and post details (name,date etc) from the Death Cert. for whom you seek.
I have access to unavailable records for this site and will be more able to help you from there.
https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/
Vic
-
Where would I find Walton park burial records for 1880 to 1885
-
Walton Park Cemetery on FamilySearch. Click on the camera icon to view the film you want to look at. Need to be logged in.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/587103?availability=Family%20History%20Library
-
Thank you found the person who I'm looking for
-
Excellent!