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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Rutland => Topic started by: HughC on Tuesday 10 May 11 11:41 BST (UK)
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In the census transcripts I've come across "Rutlandshire".
Was it once called that, or is it yet another stupidity on the part of enumerators at the time or transcribers more recently?
Similarly Dorsetshire, Somersetshire, Devonshire
-- but never Cornwallshire or Kentshire or Surreyshire!
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According to Wikipedia:
Historically it was also known as Rutlandshire, but in recent times only the shorter name is common.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutland
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As in the cases of Dorset and Somerset I believe?
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Traditionally in Wales the only county that in English did not have the 'shire' suffix was Anglesey. However its name in Welsh is Sir Ṃn - sir being Welsh for county or shire - also Sir Drefaldwyn (Montgomeryshire), Sir Benfro (Pembrokeshire) etc, etc.
Dave
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Isn't the IoM Mona?
What does Ṃn mean?
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I believe Anglesey is in fact Ynys Mon, but what it means you would have to ask a Welsh speaker.
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You're quite right and it means Isle of Môn - ynys being Welsh for island (isle). The name first appeared in the Roman era as Mona. I must have been thinking of something else at the time..........................
Dave
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I believe that it was considered by the Romans to be the home of the Druidic religion, and in consequence ravaged by them. Ynys Mon, that is not Rutland(shire).
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Yes it exists, that is why we at Anguline Research Archives use it in the listing for the counties.
see-
http://anguline.co.uk/
Cheers
Guy
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Pigot and Co's National Commercial Directory 1828-29 refers to Rutlandshire as does Pigot's 1841.
However White's 1846 Directory refers to "Leicestershire and the Small County of Rutland".
Slater's Directories of 1850 and 1858 refer to Rutlandshire.
An old map(Badeslade and Toms) 1741 refers to Rutland Shire (two words).
Crowboy
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In answer to the original question, the etymology of the county name of Rutland is generally accepted as deriving from 'Rota's land', and the earliest forms do not have the suffix '-shire'. Although an area known as Rutland is first attested pre-Conquest as dowry land of Mercian queens, Rutland as a county emerges somewhat later. Rutland came to be regarded as a 'shire county' and is frequently referred to in post-medieval sources as 'Rutlandshire'. You can safely regard the two names as synonymous, but the preferred usage is 'Rutland'. For the origins of the county, see Charles Phythian-Adams in Rutland Record no 1 (1980), 5-12 (published by Rutland Local History & Record Society)..
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Perhaps it is like other counties such as Devon, or Westmorland and Cumberland which seldom or never had "shire" attached to them?
They do talk about "shire" counties don't they?
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Thank you, antiquary. I think that confirms my suspicion, that the "-shire" is unetymological here.
As a possible answer to another question posed in this thread, I've just found in a book:
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Mon is a mysterious name closely connected with Man. Some scholars think that both these island names come in some way from Manannan, the ancient Celtic god of the sea.
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Seems very likely, and the Romans took over a local name. And of course Caernarfon is the castle facing Mon, whose initial letter aspirates (one of the features of Celtic languages that makes them so hard to learn!).
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Mona, for the Isle of Man comes from the Latinised version of the name of the island.
In Manx, the island is Ellan Vannin; Vannin being the genitive case of Mannin with initial consonant mutation.
The Old Irish form of the name is Manau or Mano. Old Welsh records named it as Manaw.
The name is probably cognate with the Welsh name of the island of Anglesey, Ynys Môn, usually derived from a Celtic word for 'mountain' (reflected in Welsh mynydd).
The name was at least secondarily associated with that of Manannán mac Lir in Irish mythology (corresponding to Welsh Manawydan fab Llŷr).
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You're evidently well informed, KGarrad. I did rather suspect that Môn and Man are basically the same name.
The nearest I can find in Irish is mín, a mountain pasture, which of course is not the same as the mountain itself but at least related to it. And could they be from the same Indoeuropean root as Latin mons?
We seem to have strayed rather from Rutland, but it's just as interesting.
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You're evidently well informed, KGarrad.
It's what happens when you live on the Isle of Man! ;D ;D
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There was an explanation about the smallest English county shire of Rutland on TV a while back where it was explained that historically it was given to a queen so that she could be independent of her husband. It only covers 151 square miles
I've surfed and found the date: "Rutland was bequeathed to the Anglo-Saxon Queen's, this tradition started with Emma, mother of Edward the Confessor, who was granted 'Roteland' on her marriage to King Ethelred in AD 1002."
http://www.discover-rutland.co.uk/discover-rutland/curiosities-of-rutland
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Most of the old maps on this site are of Rutlandshire.
http://www.antique-prints-maps.com/acatalog/Rutland_antique_maps.html
David