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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Maggie1895 on Sunday 15 May 11 14:38 BST (UK)
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Although I have a very strong Kentish strand in my family I know a lot less about Kent resources than other areas of the UK, so any help or advice would be appreciated.
My great great grandfather, Boys Spicer, died on 7th February 1874. He was shown in early records as a farm labourer but by the time of his marriage was a Farmer in Marden, and remained a farmer until his death aged 55.
I have all the normal details on his tree, parents, census, marriage etc, and his Probate record which confirms the date of his death and his estate, so thought I was pretty complete there, but going through some papers of my mother's yesterday I found a note that he had drowned. That was news to me.
I realise I need to get his death certificate to confirm the cause of death but would have thought it a fair bet that a death by drowning, presumably an accident, of a Farmer in the area would have been reported in the newspapers. Can anyone guide me to any online sources for Kent newspaper archives? I've not come across any by googling, maybe because they aren't there or maybe because I've not searched correctly. If they can only be seen by going to Kent Libraries in person fair enough, but as I don't live anywhere near I'd love to follow up on line if possible. If not, well a trip to Kent was on the retirement wish list already - I'll just have to move it up a few places.
Thanks for reading!
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I wonder if the Marden History Group would have anything about the drowning.
http://www.mardenhistory.org.uk/
There maybe something on his gravestone (if there is one).
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The graves are listed here
http://www.mardenchurch.org.uk/ck/?page_ref=338&PHPSESSID=ade50d2c683d51412352f5f732ccca62
but I can't see one for Boys SPICER :(
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Thank you bearkat - I've looked at the records from St Michael's before for other things and our family's 3 or 4 different surnames only appear rather later. I know they attended the Methodist Chapel rather than the Anglican Church and that my great aunt played the harmonium there. I believe her father played the cello, which may have made for slightly less run of the mill services!
You've reminded me of the Marden History group, which I had meant to join previously - I think it will be Ł12 well spent. I'm inclined to think that it will be newspaper reports I'll need to access, and maybe they can help with that side of it. Otherwise, roll on retirement and that trip round the UK visiting Public LIbararies!
I do appreciate the help
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Have you seen this in the London Gazette?
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24735/pages/4051
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Boys SPICER's grave is among the list of those removed >:(
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Boys SPICER was baptised at All Saints Church, Staplehurst 12th July 1818.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~staplehurst/Bap_Data_1813.htm#S
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Maidstone library hold local newspapers. As you have a date of death from the probate and presuming the body was found almost immediately this should be enough for them to have a look for any inquest report for you http://www.kent.gov.uk/LibrariespublicUI/OpeningTimes/LibraryDetails.aspx?id=52
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you both!
Bearkat, I'm intrigued by the Court report because the Probate was granted to his widow and his third son, Thomas. The probate grant looks normal so what happened after that I'm not sure.
Am I missing something about 'Boys Spicer's grave is amongst the list of those removed?' Obviously I am! It stirred a memory of my grandmother, who had moved away from Kent, going back down and finding some of the family graves in Marden had been moved to make way for (as I remember it) a bicycle shed. She was absolutely furious and complained to the local paper, who duly printed a report headed something like "Octagenarian devastated by vandalising of family graves"
If she had been cross before, it was nothing to how she was having seen herself described in a newspaper as an Octagenarian...
p.s. sorry casalguidi, I meant to say that I will get in touch with the Maidstone Library and thanks for the signposting
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http://www.mardenchurch.org.uk/ck/?page_ref=338&PHPSESSID=ade50d2c683d51412352f5f732ccca62
MEMORIALS REMOVED
Note:
These memorials have been removed: details, given here in good faith, are based on informal papers which should be regarded as unreliable. “F” indications are surmised. No photographs exist but transcriptions or partial transcriptions are available where marked respectively “T” or “P”.
Spicer Boys 1874 F “of Marden” husband of Frances
Spicer Frances 1895 wife of Boys, they left 3 sons and 4 daughters: Frances-Hester, Boys, Thomas-John, William, Maryann, Elizabeth and Julia
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Thank you!!! all now clear, and my poor grandmother totally vindicated. I definitely owe her an apology for not paying more attention. I might have been around 11 or 12 or possibly not even that that, and I think the family had some sort of "what is Grandma doing, isn't it embarrassing?" moment. If only, as children, we realise that what we hear as elderly relatives and totally yawnmaking are the very things we will spent years searching for after they are gone...
I really cannot get over how good Rootschat is. A Sunday afternooon, reading a note of my mother's, wondering.. one post on Rootschat and I have so much by way of answer, and direction for more. Thank you both so much
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bearkat, thank you again. I've just looked at the link you sent for the missing memorials and realised that I have never searched St Michael's records. Because I had looked at the Marden History Society page and searched Burials etc through that I thought that covered it - what a great resource I had overlooked by assuming that was it.
There are lot of my family listed apart from the Spicers, including even the number of their plots so when I do make it to Kent I will be well prepared. The best bit is that although I have the tree going back a few generations, there is a wealth of evidence in here to support / confirm the entries that are work in progress.
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That's brilliant. ;D
Do have a look at the online records for neighbouring Staplehurst - there are quite a few SPICERS there too.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~staplehurst/Reg_Menu.htm
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I will. I know that Boys was born there, though his mother's family are from Marden, and have details of Boys parents but not so far any previous generations of Spicers.
I really would like to find out where his christian name originated.
His maternal line is different - his grandfather and great grandfather were both Boys Simmons, b 1723 and 1747 respectively, and I can follow that line back from Kent to Southwark and Shoreditch and a marriage between a William Simmons and a lady called Elizabeth. I'd love to think she may have been Elizabeth Boys but with a birth around 1700 it's not going to be something that'll be easy to confirm (or not)!
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They're common names but there is a marriage for a William SIMMONDS to Elizabeth MASON both OTP 6th October 1717.
I can see only one child baptised to this couple in Staplehurst - William 30th January 1718/9.
Perhaps they moved away to London ???
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Lovely idea but I don't think that's them.
Boys' mother was Hester Mary Simmons (her burial is in the St Michael list). Her baptism was on 17 December 1784 at Chatham in Kent
Her father was Boys Simmons, baptised in Marden on Christmas Day 1747 (her mother was Martha Barton)
Boys Simmon's father was also Boys Simmons, baptised 28 March 1734 (typo, that should read 1723) in Southwark - which is where we move back from Kent. His mother was Hester, surname unknown
The earlier Boys Simmon's father was William Simmons, but from there we are getting into conjecture. He stands out like a sore thumb (in my family anyway!) as on Boys' baptism records he is a 'gentleman' - and in my tree we don't get many of them to the pound!
There is a baptism that could be William's in Shoreditch on 14 August 1692, and if it is 'my' William Simmons then his parents were William Simmons and Elizabeth.
If that is him, then you have 2 generations of Williams suddenly followed by 2 generations of Boys, which is what leads me to wonder if Elizabeth was Elizabeth Boys? So far I've not managed to get any further in this, but brick walls in 1692 are always easier to live with thnat brick walls in the 1820s which is where some of my other lines stop.
The one thing I do know for sure is that the Simmons line, where the Boys name originates, moves out of Kent and goes back to London in the earlier half of the 1700s.
p.s. actually on second thoughts that doesn't preclude the 1717 Staplehurst marriage - the fact they have one son baptised in 1718 in Kent doesn't stop them having a second baptised 6 years later in Southwark - oh lord don't these things get complicated! Thanks for the lead, I will follow it up
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There's lots on the SIMMON(D)S family on the Staplehurst site
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~staplehurst/Simmons_family.htm#William 1680
Do you have an idea of William's age?
William Simmonds c1680
It is uncertain who the parents of William are. See William above. Which of these two Williams is the son of Thomas and Jane Simmons is unknown. Their son was born on 06 April 1680 and baptised in Staplehurst on 23 October 1681.
William Simmonds of Staplehurst married Elizabeth Mason on 06 Oct 1717 in Staplehurst. They were both said to be of Staplehurst. The couple had one child baptised in Staplehurst.
William son of William and Elizabeth was born 23 November 1718 and baptised on 30 January 1718/18.
There is no further record in Staplehurst for this family; presumably they left the parish.l
This William was about 37 when he married Elizabeth.
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Boys' mother was Hester Mary Simmons (her burial is in the St Michael list). Her baptism was on 17 December 1784 at Chatham in Kent
Do you have the baptism entry?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0d89/
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bearkat, I didn't have sight of the original, just the date, but thanks to you I do now!
I hadn't logged on during the week, work was in one of those 'exploding' phases, but have had a wonderful time today exploring the St Michael's records for all my different Marden strands.
Whether Boys Simmons was born to a Staplehurst family who had their first son there, and then moved towards London, is an intruiging thought and is going to give me plenty more to try and follow up. Not impossible by any means
Thank you so much for all your help and expertise
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Lovely idea but I don't think that's them.
Boys' mother was Hester Mary Simmons (her burial is in the St Michael list). Her baptism was on 17 December 1784 at Chatham in Kent
Her father was Boys Simmons, baptised in Marden on Christmas Day 1747 (her mother was Martha Barton)
Boys Simmon's father was also Boys Simmons, baptised 28 March 1734 (typo, that should read 1723) in Southwark - which is where we move back from Kent. His mother was Hester, surname unknown
The earlier Boys Simmon's father was William Simmons, but from there we are getting into conjecture. He stands out like a sore thumb (in my family anyway!) as on Boys' baptism records he is a 'gentleman' - and in my tree we don't get many of them to the pound!
There is a baptism that could be William's in Shoreditch on 14 August 1692, and if it is 'my' William Simmons then his parents were William Simmons and Elizabeth.
If that is him, then you have 2 generations of Williams suddenly followed by 2 generations of Boys, which is what leads me to wonder if Elizabeth was Elizabeth Boys? So far I've not managed to get any further in this, but brick walls in 1692 are always easier to live with thnat brick walls in the 1820s which is where some of my other lines stop.
The one thing I do know for sure is that the Simmons line, where the Boys name originates, moves out of Kent and goes back to London in the earlier half of the 1700s.
p.s. actually on second thoughts that doesn't preclude the 1717 Staplehurst marriage - the fact they have one son baptised in 1718 in Kent doesn't stop them having a second baptised 6 years later in Southwark - oh lord don't these things get complicated! Thanks for the lead, I will follow it up
I have been researching the Marden Simons for a number of years and I have recently found out where the Boys Simons name came from, it comes from the grandmother of Boys Simons Born 1723,
Mary Boys, she married William Simons, 1655, the son and heir of Edward Simons, 1626-1676, Gentleman of Marden and his wife Ann Maplisden also of Marden, Edward and Ann married in St Mary Magdalene, Old Fish street, London, 28/10/1647.
William Simons, B 1655, married Mary Boys the daughter of Samuel Boys of Hawkhurst, Kent and Philadelphia Parker, daughter of Sir Thomas Parker and Philadelphia Lennard, the daughter of Sir Henry Lennard, Lord Dacre of the South and Chysigona Baker. at the Parish Church of Hawkhurst, Kent, on the 10th of January 1687, they had 4 children, Philadelphia Simons, 1689, Jane Simons, 1695, Edward Simons, 1696 and William Simons, 1703, all born in Marden, Kent.
Philadelphia never married, Jane died at 22, Edward married Hester Chilman, he died in 1740 when Hester was pregnant with their second child, Mary Simons B 1740, the widow Hester Simons nee Chilman then married Edward's nephew Boys Simons, B 1723 son of William Simons B 1703 and Elizabeth unknown, in 1743 and had the 4 children with him.
I found the marriage of William Simons B 1655, of Marden, Kent, to Mary Boys in the "Platagenet Roll, The Blood Royal" Mary Boys descends from King Edward the third, through his second son Lionel of Antwerp and Lionel's granddaughter Lady Elizabeth Percy nee Mortimer. through the Lennard line.
She also descends from the the Spencer's through the third wife of Sir Nicholas Parker, Catherine Temple, whose mother was Susan Spencer, Susan Spencer and John Temple were the 11th great grandparents of Lady Diana Spencer, there are many titled people in Mary's family lines which make it easier to search.
I have the wills for Edward Simons, Gent, D 1676, his granddaughter Philadelphia Simons, Spinster, D 1742, grandson Edward Simons, D 1740, the daughter and son of Mary Boys, also Hester Simons nee Chilman, D 1783, the wife of both Edward Simons D 1740 and his nephew Boys Simons, these are obtainable from the Marden Historical society and have been a great help with my research in tying these people together
The marriage of William Simons 1655, and Mary Boys can be found at Familysearch, Hawkhurst,Kent, 10 January 1687
Google : The Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal The Mortimer-Percy Volume, Descendants of Philadelphia Parker married at Willingdon 1 February 1649, Samuel Boys of Hawkhurst, 1a to 7a, on page 518, they had 1 son and 6 daughters, Mary Boys is 5a, on page 520.
There are heaps of trees, tombs and paintings online for Mary's ancestors.
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Article in the Whitstable Times & Herne Bay Herald 21/02/1874 - poor man fell in a stream on his way home from the pub. Someone heard him crying for help but thought they were shouting for "Alf". He was found the next morning :(
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That's very sad.
I'm glad you found the newspaper report.
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I have a theory which seems to differ slightly from that put forward in the replies thus far, regarding the decent of Hester Mary Simons.
I agree Hester's parents to be Boys Simons and Martha Barton from Marden Kent.
Boys Simons'parents in turn are Boys Simons and Hester (Chilman). My point is that this second Boys Simons is not the Boys Simons b1723 in Southwark,but in fact is the brother of an Edward Simons who was Hester's first husband. In the Will off Edward Simons is mentioned this younger brother 'Boyce Simons' which given the age of Hester (b 1708) It seems far more logical that the widow would marry her brother in law than a much younger nephew. The church register of the marriage is no clearer as it just names the parties so it could equally apply to either Boys.
The parents of Edward and Boys Simons were of course William Simons & Mary Boys which is the start of all these BOYS!!!
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The Boys Simons mentioned in Edward Simons will was his nephew Boys, son of Edward's brother William and his wife Elizabeth.
The nephew Boys was to be Edward's heir if he had no sons, Edward's wife Hester gave birth to another girl, Mary, after the death of her husband, so there was no male heir for Edward.
The nephew Boys did marry his uncle's widow in 1743, probably so that he could protect and access his inheritance.
Boys was 20 years old and Hester was about 35, I have proof of this marriage in the form of Boys, Hester and their daughter Philadelphia's memorials in the Marden Church, there are 3 identical memorials with the Simons Family crest on the top, one is for Boys and Hester's daughter Philadelphia, it say's, In Memory of Philadelphia Simons daughter of Boys and Hester Simons of this parish, who departed this life January 26th 1759 aged 14 years
There is one for Boys, it reads, In Memory of Boys Simons Gent, late of this parish, he died October 24 1772, aged 49 years, Left issue one son and two daughters, Boys, Elizabeth and Jane.
And the third one is for Hester Simons ne Chilman, hers reads, In memory of Hester wife of Boys Simons, Gent, who died September 10 1783, aged 75 years, left issue, Boys, Hester, Mary, Elizabeth and Jane. Philadelphia had died so she wasn't mentioned, only the children living at the time of the parents deaths. Boys is mentioned first he because he was the heir.
I sent for photo's of the memorials and inscriptions from the Marden Historical Society and they sent me a CD of the photo's and inscriptions, they have been a big help with my research into my Simons ancestors, the photo's of Boys, Hester and their daughter Philadelphia's wall memorials are beautiful, Boys had become the senior Simons, so he was entitled to use the Simons Family Crest, the extended Simons family are buried under the floor of the church, there were some photo's of the grave plaques included, they are well worth sending for if you get the chance.
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I am absolutely stunned. I posted my original query several years ago, and (as always on Rootschat) had some great help and advice. For all sorts of reasons including a fairly recent bereavement I've been off line for quite a while.
Recently I had notifications in my inbox that there were new replies. I can't believe what I've been reading, particularly from Priscilla (and that doesn't mean I dispute what you've written, just that it's so hard to comprehend the amount of information being given on what I thought was a brick wall.)
It's going to take me a while to get my head round all this new information, particularly the fact that the line appears to be traceable so far back.
Oddly enough, my mother, who was very fond of her own grandmother, Boys Spicer's daughter Mary Ann, always maintained she'd been told we were descended somehow from the Percys (Harry Hotspur and that ilk).
It seems I owe my mother and my grandmother apologies, but also I owe a massive thank you to Priscilla, to whom I must be related in some way or other, and to EasternHammer for all this new information.
At the moment I'm still wading through all the process and the paperwork that sadly follows someone's death, but as soon as I get time I'm going to be going through all this in detail.
Thank you everyone. x
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My condolences Maggie on the death in your family, it seems that we are probably 1st cousins many times removed, I am an Australian descendant of Boys sister Philadelphia, born about 1729 and her husband Thomas Sharp, through their daughter Priscilla Elizabeth Sharp, b 1768, Philadelphia was my 5th Great Grandmother.
It seems that the descendants of Philadelphia Simons also had been told stories of a Great Grandmother Lady Elizabeth and were aware of their Royal Heritage, although it seems the stories changed over time.
Some of Philadelphia's descendants emigrated to Australia in the 1850's and later, some went to NSW and some to Victoria, the Victorian lot were Dairy Farmers.
I have had a ball researching our Royal ancestors, because of their strategic marriages we actually descend from 3 of King Edward the 3rd's sons, as well as Lionel of Antwerp, we also descend from John of Gaunt and Thomas of Woodstock, many of our ancestors were executed or died in battle.
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Maggie 1895, You have my deepest condolences, bereavement is a difficult time. My father passed away four years ago, he was a historian so I'm sure he's quite amused with his ancestry.
Priscilla95614, I understand the Nephew theory but still retain a little doubt as to why Edward Simons uses the expression in his will as"unto my brother Boyce Simons". Also given Edward had no male heirs then why did he neglect his brother William. The standard custom would have been to pass property down to siblings Male in absence of any male issue. http://cdn.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/huh.gif
I haven't seen any of the church memorials so thats something I'll have to chase up at some stage. Thanks for the tip.http://cdn.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif
Philadelphia Simons who married Thomas Sharp is our shared ancester, also being my 5 x Grt Grandmother! Through her daughter Philadelphia, Priscilla's elder sister. So it would seem we're quite close.
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Hi easterHammer, I got my transcribed copy of Edward Simons 1740 will from the Marden History Group, my copy states unto my Nephew Boyse Simons and the heirs of his body and so on forever.
The will says if Edward had no male heir Edward's wife Hester would have the estate for the rest of her life then her daughters and any issue they may have, for want of such issue the estate would go to my nephew Boyse Simons.
Edward leaves large sums of money to his Chilman relatives and twelve pounds to his sister Philadelphia for mourning clothes, there is no mention of his brother William that I can see, which is strange.
I have received five Simons wills from the history group, in Edward Simons spinster sister Philadelphia's will dated 1742, she leaves two farms to her brother William for his natural life then they would go to his daughter, Philadelphia and her heirs forever, if she died before inheriting it would go to William's son Edward, if he died before inheriting it would go to William's son Boys, Philadelphia's niece and nephews, it's an interesting one to read.
Did you get your copy of Edwards will from the Marden History Group, they have been very helpful in sending me the wills via email and putting together a CD of the Memorials and inscriptions and sending it by post to Australia.
I am very interested in your being a descendant of Priscilla's older sister Philadelphia, I know a bit about her, who she married and where, I believe she also ended up living in Plumstead, Kent, Priscilla married a John Hopgood and a large family, she also used the names Philadelphia Simons and Boys Simons for two of her children, Priscilla was my Great Grandfathers Great Grandmother, he emigrated to Victoria, Australia in 1875 from Plumstead when he was 17 years old and went on to have a large family, 14 children.
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Hi Priscilla95614
Interesting, I downloaded copies of Edward Simoms 1740, Philadelphia Simons 1742, Hester Simons 1783, Boys Simons 1854, and Edward Simons 1680 Wills from the Ancestry site. I guess these are the 5 transcripts you have obtained ?
I've always had a healthy disrespect for transcribed documents, something my father always said about using primary sources first. However in saying that, I think my own transcription has failed me!!As I consult the original document it looks to me the word is more likely Nephew!!
All which makes Edward Simons 1740 Will quite interesting.
The impression I get from the Will of Edward Simons 1740 are first his concern that the child his wife is carrying maybe a boy. Thus quite alot of the Will seems concerned with this, then secondly as you say he is quite lavish in terms of his in laws the Chilmans, and all but for almost a token jesture to his sister Philadelphia and no mention of William. The guardian for his chiildren are Stephen Chilman and Reuben Baldwin (Hester's uncle). I can't help but get a sense of a slight rift between the family.
Looking at Philadelphia's Will I get a sense of someone who is quite prim and proper, convident but also a bit conceited. Being a single woman at this time, seemingly controlling lands and a degree of wealth and fine old family connections, and through her Will I get a image of quite a strong character and not someone easily crossed. Initially I thought the part where she describes Hester the widow of Edward as her sister Simons the relict of her late brother Edward and goes on to leave her 5 pounds for mourning but nothing if she doesn't board with her at the time, as being quite spitful but considering brother Edward's Will it is almost a reply to what she felt as being a little insulting on Edward or indeeds Hester's part.
Philadelphia spreads her assets across the family but particularly to young brother William and more so neice Philadelphia above all other relations. So I think these two Wills in particular throw up quite a few interesting points!!
Turning to our Philadelphia as you know she married into the Sharpe family and among her children was Philadelphia and sister Priscilla.
Philadelphia went on to marry young James Gardiner and as you say, on to Plumstead. I also think her youngest brother Bishop Sharp and eldest brother Thomas Sharp also went initially to reside in Plumstead/Woolwich region.
A question remains as to why she married into the Gardiner's as they aren't from Marden.The Sharp's appear to be from around the Sussex/Kent border region. In quite a short space of time this particular branch of SIMONS family seems to have travelled from Land owners managing farms and orchards etc to people who are employed for a living.
The Gardiners remaind in the Plumstead/Woolwich region right up to the modern era. My father only emigrating to Australia with young family in 1967!
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Hi easternhammer, those are the 5 will copies that I have and I agree with your impressions of the kind of people that they were and what was important to them, Aunt Philadelphia leaves her mother, Mary Boys childbed linen to her niece Philadelphia, as well as a ring with her sister Jane's hair, Jane Simons died on the 21st of February 1724, her brother William and his wife Elizabeth had a son born after Boys in 1723, Edward was born in 1724, he died aged 2 years in 1726 and was buried with his Aunt Jane, William and Elizabeth then had another son in 1727 and gave him the name Edward.
Philadelphia's nephew Boys gets a few bits and pieces in the will as well as a picture of her mother, Mary Boys, that picture is later handed on to Mary Simons by her mother Hester, I would love to see it, I wonder who ended up with it.
With regard to the Sharp family I found a will of a John Sharpe of Northiam in the County of Sussex,
1683, Probate 1687, he has sons John and Thomas, as well as land in Northiam he has property in Sandhurst, I thought that he may be the ancestor of our Sharpe's.
My 4th Great grandmother Priscilla Elizabeth Sharp was born in Sandhurst in 1768, she married John Hopgood born Staplehurst, B 1764, in All Saints, Maidstone, on the 2nd of February 1784, she was 16 and he was 20, that's very young, I have to wonder about that one, they had 11 children, John Hopgood, Marden, 1785, Thomas Hopgood, Staplehurst, 1788, Priscilla Hopgood, Boughton Monchelsea, 1791, Philadelphia Simmons Hopgood, Marden, 1794, Robert Hopgood, Boughton, Monchelsea, 1796, Samuel Hopgood, Boughton, Monchelsea, 1798, Mary Anne Hopgood, Boughton, Monchelsea, 1800, Boyce Simmons Hopgood, Boughton, 1806. Elizabeth Etherington Hopgood, Boughton, 1806, died 7 months, Sarah Etherington Hopgood, Boughton, 1808, died in Plumstead 1809 at 19 months, Caroline Hopgood, Woolwich, 1814.
Priscilla Elizabeth Hopgood ne Sharpe died in 1840 and was buried St Nicholas, Deptford, her son Samuel, B 1798 emigrated to Victoria in 1849 with his second wife and their daughter, his older son Samuel, born to his first wife, along his family joined him in 1854, they had a Dairy Farm at Duck Pond near Lara outside Geelong, Victoria.
Priscilla Elizabeth's daughter Priscilla Hopgood was my 4x Great grandmother, she married Charles Jenner, their oldest son Charles Jenner, 1812, sailed for Sydney Australia with his wife and children aboard the Java in November 1852 arriving in Sydney in April 1853, this journey was horrific, many died, about 40, mainly children, there is a diary online for this voyage,
Priscilla's youngest daughter Eliza Jenner married William Jones, their son Major Jones was my Great grandfather, he came out to Victoria in 1875, he went to live and work on his mothers Hopgood relatives Dairy Farm at Duck Pond, he later became a Butcher and raised a large family in Warracknabeal.
I am very interested in your families history also, your family are a fairly new arrivals to Australia, there are now many of us descendants of my Great Grandfather Major Jones living in Australia and New Zealand.
The next item I want to send for from the Marden History Group, is a 1732 Marriage Settlement of Edward Simons, I think that would be very informative, that would involve his marriage to Hester Chilman I would say.
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Alot of information Priscilla95614,
Looking back through the thread I think we're drifting away from Maggie's original line a bit so I think it would be easier to follow separate subject threads for our "SHARPE" family of Sandhurst and again separate the "Hopgood" line. etc
The basic line of 'Boys Spicer' Maggie's 2 x Grt Grand Father who unfortunately drowned, now if we follow the origin of 'Boys' name then the trail is thought to go as follows:
Boys Spicer is the son of Hester Mary (nee SIMONS) and William SPICER who married in Staplehurst 1806.
Hester Mary SIMONS in turn was the daughter of Boys SIMONS and Martha BARTON married in Marden 1773
Boys SIMONS was the son of Boys SIMONS and Hester SIMONS (Hester having previously been married to Edward SIMONS) Boys and Hester were married in Southwark, London 1743
Hester previous marriage to Edward SIMONS in Hunton Kent 1732. Hester surname is CHILMAN Edward died Marden 1740
The "Boys" who married Hester is thought to be Edward SIMONS nephew (?) Boys parents are William SIMONS and Elizabeth. I believe her name to be PARKER. Married Sholden 1723
Which finally leads us to William's parants William SIMONS and Mary BOYS! Married Hawkhurst 1687
Priscilla95614 and myself connect around this stage. Through Philadelphia SIMONS the daughter of William SIMONS and Elizabeth PARKER
It is then through Mary BOYS that the line connects up with the research in the Plantagent Roll publication which attempts to plot the links to Edward III Plantagent.http://cdn.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif
Turning to Priscilla95614 last remarks on SIMONS link I noticed the marriage settlement document on the Marden History Group site and I think it would be interesting but by nature it is going to be more concernd with Property transaction and probably no mention of Edward's brother William. The portrait of Mary BOYS mentioned in the Will's would indeed be a remarkable thing to see. Since it went down to Mary SIMON I doubt it remained in the SIMONS family, but nice to imagine it somewhere in someones attic. \(- v-)/
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I really can't thank you both, and everyone else on this thread, enough. For the two of you, Priscilla and easterHammer, not just for the information, but also for your kind messages. I've been off the board for some time, I retired earlier than originally planned, my husband cut down his work abroad, we moved house south to be nearer family and then, 7 weeks ago, my husband died suddenly and very unexpectedly. I'm now planning to downsize and move again, probably within the next couple of months.
Life happens. We all know that. I have a lot of things I need to do, but not much that I want to do or am particularly looking forward to doing, so working through all the information this thread has given me is going to be my treat to myself whenever I can.
I'm still a bit shocked by the connection to the Plantagenet roll - I've always been happy to come from a long line of nobody in particular (though special to me) with absolutely no gateway ancestor within miles. This is my mother's side of the family, and my father's is pure Scot with family traditions taking us back to one of the many 'wrong side of the blanket' children of The Bruce. If Edward II really comes into it the idea that the family might have been on both sides at Bannockburn is a bit disconcerting, to say the least...
On the other hand, John of Gaunt and Richard III have always been quite heroic to me, and I read everything I can get my hands on about the Plantagenets and have always the ramifications of Edward III's children and the steps towards the Cousins' Wars fascinating, so it's really exciting.
Looking at my own tree as far as I had got, the difference to all your information is first and very minor, the name, which I have variously as Simons or Simmons. I had got the Spicers, and Mary Barton, and gone back to Hester Chilman and her marriage to Boys Simmons,. There the difference comes in. I had Hester's father as Stephen Chilman, b 1680 but no note of her mother.
Boys' parents (this is her husband Boys, who I had as b 1723 in Southwark) I have down as the son of William Simmons and 'Elizabeth'. Elizabeth was work in progress, with possible candidates noted as Ellizabeth Boys or Elizabeth Hughes. I can't remember at this distance why I had those two surnames for candidates, but going back to that brick wall (it was a brick well for me if not for you) and looking at it in the light of all the information you two have provided is going to give me many interesting hours when I've had enough of downsizing my possessions.
I'm really interested to see so many mentions of the name Philadelphia. In the family tree/story book I made for my children a few Christmases ago, I mentioned that my favourite names in the ancestors I had found were Titus Spicer and Philadelphia Simmons or Simons. That Philadelphis had died age 15, and as far as I remember was buried in St Michael's in Marden.
So much for that line centres around Marden. My gr.grandfather (different line of my mother's) originally watchmaker/jeweller was the first PostMaster there, and his daughter, my much loved Great Aunt, carried on the post office until she retired at the end of the war. Seems there was so much more history for us there than ever of us ever realised...
Thank you both again.
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Words are never enough but time does help. It's the lows in life which make one fully realise the highs. Their is still goodness and beauty to be found in the world even in our daily lives. I would argue also that within our own family trees are many tales or sadness and tragedy where somehow our ancestors just kept battling through. Their is a strength to be gained from their struggles. The grand titles are fine and leave big footprints in history but it is the mass under represented in history that had to battle all their lives which I've always found more interest from. To state the obvious these lives are our own ancestors the decisions and consequences they faced ultimately flow into our own lives and are part of our make up.
I recall the fine statue in Westminister of Richard the Lion Heart! I had a great children's storybook all about the heroic King. But in real life the Plantagenets were quite a ruthless brunch, more concerned with power and conquest. Richard spent the whole time fighting wars on foreign shores did nothing for the running of England. As for Edward II I'm sure the Welsh and Scots will have quite a different view!! However Edward III is regarded as the best of the Plantagenets and although like all Plantagenets spent time making War particularly against the French, he also did stay and administer the country and see charges in laws and administration which ultimately did improve the lives of many. Histroy has recorded him as a good King.
I take the point about Bannockburn, it is typical of what genealogy can throw up. The reality of war and conflicts is that it isn't black and white, good and bad, Victorious and defeated. That really it is loss on both sides. Again I think it is one of the beauties of Genealogy.
As for Hester's line...I can add a little if you wish to follow this line. Hester's brother was also called Stephen Chilman the same as the father, so no surprises in Hester's mother's name..It is Hester! her maiden name is Baldwin. How I know, comes from the Will of Edward Simons hester's first husband made in 1740. In it Edward bequeathed most of the family assets to his wife's family the Chilmans and mentioned Hester's brother amongst others as a Stephen Chilman. He also mentioned an uncle reuben Baldwin. So I was curious to find who the this uncle was..and after digging around found the Will of a Reuban Baldwin which seemed to match. It is a great will and I would recommend you have a look at it if your looking at Hester's line. The reason why it is so good for us if not for Reuben Baldwin is that he never married and neither had living children at the time so he bequeathed everything amongst his siblings, nephews and nieces. So he goes through and names all those living at the time. So its a great document for learning about the 'Baldwins' of which Hester senior was one, being the sister of Reuben.
I think the Simons were quite a strong land owning family in the region of Marden for many years which was past on down through the Spicers, so indeed you have a long association with Marden.
Even with our 'SIMONS' connection I have to admit I'm curious to visit the town someday.
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Maggie, I am so sorry for your loss.
I have no personal interest, but this is a fascinating thread..... someone may wish to follow up on this enquiry perhaps?
> http://wwwer.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/spicer/1272/ <
Best wishes to all.
Oh! p.s. Anyone interested in John of Gaunt may wish to read "Katherine" by Anya Seton.
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Hi, Sent you a personal message,
Phil
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All I seem to do at present is grab a few moments to come onto the board occasionally (now selling and buying homes under different legal systems, packing up, downsizing and moving house) - and when I get on here I have little to say except 'thank you', but all the information and help is so appreciated. Once I've actually moved I am so looking forward to getting to grips with it all.
Priscilla and easternHammer, thank you both again for so much information, and your kind words
Phil, I've read your message and emailed you - thank you again.
Mowsehowse - thank you. Have to admit that when the earlier posts by Priscilla and easterHammer told me that there was a link to John of Gaunt it gave me a shock, as Anya Seton's Katherine is a book I first read when about 12 or 13 and he's been a bit of a hero for me ever since. Throw in the 'this scepter'd isle...' speech and the thought there might be a legitimate line all the way back to him was a stunner.
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My great great grandfather was also the same Boys Spicer b 1819, d 1874, I visited Church in Marden & an old man told me old graves were moved some time ago because they wanted easy maintenance. A brother of some people doing some rose care in front of the Church told us some history, I beleive it was from him I leant that a Boys Spicer drowned. There was a son of this Boys Spicer who was also called Boys, born 1847 so it was this one who drowned They lived & farmed at Chainhurst Farm Marden or Staplehurst. I'm descended from Julia Spicer - daughter of Boys senior.
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Hi I am new here on Roots .I have been very interested in all the information I've seen here on the Simmons from Staplehurst and surrounding areas.
I am trying to gather any information about my Simmons family.I have Started with my g.g.grandmother Caroline Simmons 1841-1869 and reached to Edward Simmons 1683-1735.
I was wondering if you thought it maybe the same Simmons that yourself and another member was talking about .My family run farms one being Iden farm.
Thanks .
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Hello Lynn 1935,
Earlier in the year I started to research the Simmons family of Staplehurst as my Gt. Gt. Grandmother was Sally Simmons (1794-1850). I don't think her family were connected to the Simons family of Marden, though I could be wrong if I can get back any further.
However, one of Sally's ancestors was Edward Simmons bpt. 1687 Marden and bur. 1735 Staplehurst so I was wondering if this is the same Edward from your tree. He married Anne Bridgeland of S'hurst in 1714 at Frittenden.
I have not yet researched all of the various descendants yet, so, if you think we are looking at the same family, perhaps you could tell me where Caroline fits in.
I have a couple of wills from later Members of this family and they all seem to be Gentlemen Farmers.
Look forward to your thoughts,
Veronica
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Hi again Lynn1935,
Have just dug out my notes and have found a Caroline bpt. 11/10/1840 d/o Edward Simmons and Elizabeth Chantler. This Edward was the brother of my Sally.
Veronica
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My great great grandfather was also the same Boys Spicer b 1819, d 1874, I visited Church in Marden & an old man told me old graves were moved some time ago because they wanted easy maintenance. A brother of some people doing some rose care in front of the Church told us some history, I beleive it was from him I leant that a Boys Spicer drowned. There was a son of this Boys Spicer who was also called Boys, born 1847 so it was this one who drowned They lived & farmed at Chainhurst Farm Marden or Staplehurst. I'm descended from Julia Spicer - daughter of Boys senior.
Amandasqu, So sorry I haven't been on the board for a while and didn't see your post. Definitely we are cousins, though I'm never sure of how many times removed...
My great grandmother was Mary Ann Spicer, daughter of Boys Spicer (the one who drowned) and Frances Highwood. I'm very fond of Mary Ann, not only because her photos show a friendly smile and my own mother had lovely memories of her grandmother, but also because I have her tea set, apparently used every Sunday throughout her married life without any breakages. I wish I could hand it on in the same state, but not confident on that! Also because it is Mary Ann and her line that lead me to my one and only gateway ancestors (all as detailed earlier in this thread)
According to what I've found building my tree, Mary Ann was the fifth child born in 1851, then came Elizabeth, and then your great grandmother Julia was the seventh born in 1858? Does that tie in with your information?
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Sorry I have just noticed you answered about the Simmons Staplehurst.
Yes I do have Anne Bridgeland in my tree married to Edward.I agree that they were gentlemen farmers.one farm being Iden farm.
I now see you have found Caroline and her brother was Edward so we are talking about the same family.
If you would like you look on my tree at Ancestry it's on Wade family history site.Just ask if your a member as it's a private tree. I noticed I have a Sally Day Simmons if it's the same person. Jill.
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Hello again, I was still off the board for a long time - builders followed the final house move, need I say more? - but did work away in the background building my mother's tree via her grandmother, Mary Ann Spicer, using all the information on this thread so generously given by all of you, and in particular Priscilla and easterHammer. This Christmas I gave copies to my sons and grandchildren with various reactions.
From two of the grandsons, "never mind all the boring bits, look at the names at the end! They're royal!" From one of my sons "Mum, we are all descended from someone aren't we?" Well, yes, but it's quite nice to know who they were, isn't it?
All this bears out what I've always believed, that most of us don't really have any interest in where we come from until the last person we can ask has gone - hence force feeding my family their own copies of family history and asking that they just shove them in a cupboard somewhere because, who knows, one day they may even wish to look at them - and I probably won't be there to ask.
So to all of you on this thread, thank you again
I hope you all have a very happy, healthy and successful 2018 and look forward to getting back on the board a lot more and getting involved again in this really great community. I don't know anywhere else where help and advice arrives so generously from strangers (and sometimes unknown relatives) around the world.
Maggie x
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Yes that is right, we are related very distantly. my great grandmother was Julia Spicerborn 1858. She seemed to be living at Hertsfield Farm, Marden as a child but moved all over the place after marrying but was in Jasmine Villa, Marden during the First World War. My Nanny ( Julia's daughter ) also had a lovely smile. I write now as I have just given Marden museam ( at the library) a very old photo album which had Julia's family in it but as I couldn't identify them I thought others might be more interested. I think it must be the Spicer family going back to about 1840 or so. I was also very fascinated to read about Mary Boys and her connection to Royalty!
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Hi, I am a descendant of John Hopgood b1764, and Pricilla Elizabeth Sharp 1766-1840, married on 2nd Feb 1784. They had 12 children..John, Priscilla, Thomas, Priscilla, Pyiladelphia Simmons, Robert, Samuel, Mary Annore, Boyce Simmons, Elizabeth Etherington, and Caroline from Boughton Monchelsea (Kent). I am from Samuel's Line. I am trying to trace John Hopgood further back in time but have no luck. Could anyone please guide me to find out. Cheers!!