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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: dermo on Wednesday 18 May 11 19:12 BST (UK)
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Hi
Does anyone have any information on the siblings of Michael Dwyer the 1798 rebel. I heard many years ago that my mother's family, which came from the Glen of Imaal on both sides, had a connection with Michael Dwyer through his sister. My mother's family names were Keogh, Kelly, White - all from the Glen - and Bourke (or Burke) from Hollywood area. The townlands the family were connected with were Knocknamunnion, Seskin, Leitrim, Stranahely, Coolmoney, Coliga and Camera. I think the Dwyers might have connections with the latter. There is, understandably, plenty of material on the web about Michael Dwyer's immediate family and descendants but I haven't found anything on his siblings and their families.
I would appreciate any help.
Dermo
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dont know if you've already seen these but some other posters asked about Michael Dwyer a while ago
see :
Dwyer (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,526164.msg3809353.html#msg3809353)
John Dwyer, father of Michael Dwyer famous Wicklow rebel (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,455507.msg2979915.html#msg2979915)
Descendants of Michael Dwyer Genealogy, born 1772, Wicklow Chieftain (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,430158.msg2947350.html#msg2947350)
Shane
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Hi Shane
Thanks. Yes, I've seen those. My interest is in Michael Dwyer's sister and her descendants - whoever she was. Years ago, there was a programme on RTE radio - or Radio Eireann, as it was then - called "Meet the Clans", as far as I can remember. Probably in the 1960s. The presenter was Eoin 'Pope' O'Mahony. In one of those programmes, he dealt with Michael Dwyer. My uncle, Tim Keogh - a famous bagpiper - appeared on the programme and O'Mahony sketched out his relationship with Dwyer. I was, unfortunately, too young to take it in or remember any of the details. Deep regrets now, of course.
Dermo
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Hi Dermo
I am researching Michael Dwyer as well. The above links and site our from me.
I am trying to get info on Michael Dwyer's father John Dwyer, who his siblings were. (Interested in the male line)
In relation to Michael Dwyer which sibling(s) are you interested in.
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Dermo
While looking through my file on michael dwyer siblings of Michael Dwyer (2) ( I did not know I had this info)
1 John Dwyer + Mary Byrne
2 James Dwyer
2 Peter Dwyer + Catherine
3 Elizabeth Dwyer
3 Catherine Dwyer
3 Thomas Dwyer
3 James Dwyer b 1824
3 Hester Dwyer b 1824
2 Esther Dwyer
2 Catherine Dwyer + Laurence Donoghoe
3 James Donoghoe
4 James Donoghoe
3 John Donoghoe + Mary Ann Shepherd
4 Patrick Donoghoe + Mary O'Hara
5 T N Donoghoe + Margaret
4 Elizabeth Donoghoe b. 1843
4 Catherine Donoghoe b 1844
4 Robina Donoghoe b 1847
4 Maryanne Donoghoe b 1849
4 John Donoghoe b 1850
4 Esther Donoghoe b 1855
4 Margaret Donoghoe b 1856
4 Theophilus Donoghoe b 1862
4 Augusta Donoghoe b 1863
2 Mary Dwyer + John Neil
2 Michael Dwyer b 1772 d 25 Aug 1825 + Mary Doyle b 1777 d 1860
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Genseacher
Sorry I didn't see your initial post until now. I am mainly interested in Michael Dwyer's sisters and who they might have married. My understanding is that my Glen of Imaal relations are connected on the female side. As of now, I don't know exactly how. My mother's parents - John Keogh and Anne Kelly - came from the Glen (born circa 1880). Their mothers were White and Burke, so I have a few avenues to explore. (My great grandparents were born mid-1830s to 1850; two to three generations removed from Michael Dwyer). My great grandmother White came from the Camara townland where, I understand, Michael Dwyer was born. I read, too, that his father farmed near Seskin - another townland with which my relations are connected. I'm hoping to verify the Dwyer connection as I work back. Your information, I hope will help.
I know Michael Dwyer, his wife and children were transported to Australia. I am presuming some, at least, of his siblings remained in this country. Can you confirm that, and maybe which of them stayed since it must be with one of those that my family is connected? So far, the only surname familiar in what you have posted is Donoghue. One of my grandfather Keogh's sisters married a Donoghue but that would mean the connection is quite tenuous . I'm hoping the relationship is a bit more solid than that but, if not, so be it.
I'm very grateful for your help. I've seen your website and greatly admire what you have achieved.
Best regards
Dermo
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Hi Dermo
Michael Dwyer and his wife Mary decided not to take their children (the 4 eldest) to New South Wales as it was too dangerous. It was 20 years later 1828 that the 4 eldest children arrived in Australia (3 years after Michael's death) and were reunited with the other 3 children (who were born in Australia) one brother and two sisters. From looking at my file on Michael Dwyer it seems all children settled in Australia and died there too.
As for Michael's siblings I do not have much information on them.
There was another brother John Dwyer not on list above b. approx 1782.
My link which I am researching is with the male line - Dwyer and I think it would be either a brother of Michael Dwyer or Michael's father John Dwyer. I have not found the link yet.
My great great grandfather was Patrick Dwyer (Carlow I think) who married Ellen Doran (Carlow)
and one of their children was Ann Dwyer (B. 1861 Carlow Bagenalstown) who is my great grandmother
Ann Dwyer married Patrick Whelan
and one of their children is Michael Whelan who is my grandfather
Regards
Paula
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Paula
I can imagine the difficulty of trying to establish relationships that go back into the 18th century. I'm not that far back with my researches yet.
I meant to ask, do you know if Michael's siblings continued to live in Wicklow?
Regards
Dermot
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Paula
Further to my previous posts, a sister of my grandfather John Keogh married a Tom Donohoe who, I now find, was her first cousin. If he was connected with the line descended from Catherine Dwyer through her marriage to Laurence Donoghoe it would make a more than tenuous connection. However, note the slight difference in the spelling - Donohoe/Donoghoe. I'm sure that could arise over time but is the "g" definitely in the surname you found?
Regards
Dermot
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Hi Dermo
No I dont know anything more about Michaels brothers and sisters I would take it that some of them would have remained in Ireland but then again I dont know. But his children did go to Australia. I would presume the 4 eldest children who remained in Ireland till 1828 stayed with either their parents John and Mary Dwyer or with other relatives.
In relation to the Donohoe/Donoghoe keep an open mind on this as I have found names are spelled wrong. I would also suggest think outside the picture when researching as sometimes info you have been supplied with from other sources/relatives leads to you to research the wrong line/track. This has happened to me recently, and the more I pressed my relatives on the info I have been given, the more they will think about it and hey I have received new info (not on michael dwyer).
Is there any chance you could post what information you have i.e. dates of birth, marriage, where born etc and I will try and give you hand.
The name Keogh rings a bell with me and Michael Dwyer but why I dont know.
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Dermo
Here is a family with John Keogh from knocknamunnion on Irish Census 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Imael_North/Knocknamunnion/1809772/
Is this your John Keogh - I just think we should start going here and go backwards.
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Paula
That's John, my grandfather, his parents Michael and Mary and their family. It was his sister Lizzie - 8 in 1901 - who married her cousin Tom Donohoe in 1924, I believe. I think my best bet is to work back through the Donohoe side since that's the name that seems to be connected with the Dwyers. If he was Lizzie's first cousin then his mother was either a Keogh or a White (Lizzie's mother's maiden name). I don't know where Tom Donohoe came from - probably in Wicklow but I can't be sure - or when he was born. So I'm going to need to trawl for his birth and a Donohoe/Keogh or Donohoe/White marriage. I suspect I will need to get into the church records for the Glen of Imaal area. As far as I can work out that probably is the Dunlavin parish. Hoping to be in Dublin next week and to have time for a visit to the National Library.
Dermot
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Paula
A PS to my last - my great grandparents Michael Keogh and Mary White were married in November 1879. The marriage cert gives his address as Coliga and hers as Camera. They obviously moved to Knocknamunnion later but all these townlands are all pretty close to one another. Camera, or Camara, has Dwyer connections so the Whites could be the link. Mary White's father was William while Michael Keogh's father was John. That's as much as I have at the moment.
Dermot
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Hi Dermot
Could this be William White
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Imael_North/Coan/1809736/
Could this be Thomas Donoghue aged 5 cousin who married Lizzie
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Imael_North/Colliga/1809747/
Could this be Anne Kelly aged 16 (grandmother) - also see Thomas Burke who is a brother of Anne Kelly head of family
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Imael_North/Leitrim/1809774/
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Paula
The 16-year old Annie Kelly is my grandmother alright. I found that census return too and all the details match with information I already had from my mother (including John Nolan whom my great grandmother Anne married a little later). The 5-year old Thomas Donoghue is a definite possibility, especially given the address. It would make him a few years younger than Lizzie but that would be no impediment. I'll pursue their marriage record to verify. The William White find is very interesting too but, beyond his name, I have nothing to corroborate it. The fact that one of my grandfather's sisters was Anne, like William's wife, is suggestive though it's obviously a common name. But I have not come across Coan before in association with the family and my great grandmother Mary White's address on her marriage cert was Camera. Have to suspend judgement on that one.
You are very good to go to the trouble of digging this info out. I really appreciate it.
Best regards
Dermot
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Hi Dermot
Just wondering have you gotten any further
with your research
Regards
Genseacher
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Paula
Not much progress I'm afraid. Actually, no progress! I was in Dublin at the end of May and went to the National Library to look at the Dunlavin church records but I found nothing. The records are very faded and a lot of the pages on the microfilm were virtually blank. I'll be up again at the end of this month and will have another go. In the meantime, I'm going to order the marriage certificate of my grandfather's sister Lizzie and Tom Donohue which may give me a link with the Thomas Donoghue of Colliga link you found. It's a frustratingly slow process. I console myself by pursuing other sides of the family!
I'll keep you posted on this thread.
Best regards
Dermot
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Hi Dermot
The following info might be of help to you
Could this be Thomas Donoghue aged 5 cousin who married Lizzie
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Imael_North/Colliga/1809747/
In relation to the above quote I have found a Donoghue/Keogh marriage - Thomas Donoghue and Jane Donoghue NEE KEOGH married Oct - Dec 1891, Baltinglass Vol 2 Page 386 who were the parents of Thomas aged 5 on census (cousin who marr Lizzie Keogh).
This could be the connection as Jane Donoghue nee Keogh was probably sister of Michael Keogh
Regards
Genseacher
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Dermot
In relation to Elizabeth Keogh (Lizzie)
I have found marriage for an Elizabeth Keogh Oct-Dec 1924
Baltinglass, Vol 2 Page 165, but there is no else listed on this page only Elizabeth
Marriage for Thomas Donohoe and Elizabeth Flood Oct - Dec 1924, Baltinglass, Vol 2 Page 163
Is it possible that Lizzie Keogh was married before she married Thomas Donohoe and first husband died
I have found marriage for Elizabeth Keogh marriage to James Flood July - Sept 1918, Baltinglass, Vol 2 Page 349
Trust me these could be possibilites - have already had in my own family trees.
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi Paula
You're spot on. Lizzie was a widow when she married Tom Donohoe. She had been married to James Flood previously. I originally only knew the surname of her first husband, through information from my late mother, but found the same details you did when searching on FamilySearch.org. I'm afraid I haven't taken research on this side of the family much further yet - I've been preoccupied with my wife's family lately. I'm hoping eventually to establish a relationship through the Donohoes to the sister of Michael Dwyer on the basis of the information you provided about her marriage to a Donohoe. Since Tom Donohoe was Lizzie Keogh's first cousin, it would be a blood relationship - if I can establish it.
Thanks for your efforts on my behalf. I will revert in due course.
Best regards
Dermot
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Hi Paula
Prompted by your recent posts, I did a little research on Rootsireland and found the Thomas Donoghue-Jane Keogh church marriage record in November 1891. She was, indeed, the sister of my great grandfather Michael Keogh. Happily, the marriage record lists both her parents, John Keogh and Julia Smyth. I already had them for Michael, so it is conclusive. I found the baptismal record for Thomas's and Jane's son Thomas in September 1895 so you were right, back in May, in identifying the family in the 1901 census when young Thomas was listed as 5 years old. The marriage record shows that Thomas Senior's parents were Patrick Donoghue and Anna Whelan. This gives me a step back towards (hopefully) one of the Donoghues you listed as descended from Michael Dwyer's sister Catherine. Unfortunately, I haven't been successful in finding a marriage record on Rootsireland for Patrick and Anna so far. I may have better luck on FamilySearch.
Thanks for getting me back on the track of this side of the family. I will let you know if I discover any more.
Best regards
Dermot
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Hi Paula
Since my last post, I've done a little more digging online but without success. Patrick Donoghue's marriage to Anne Whelan did not show up on FamilySearch either. It was probably before civil registration began. I also tried to track down some of the Donoghues you listed in your post last May (reply #4 in this thread) on Rootsireland. I tried the marriages (Catherine Dwyer + Laurence Donoghue, John Donoghue + Mary Ann Shepherd, Patrick Donoghue + Mary O'Hara) plus some of the more exotically-named children (Robina, Theophilus and Augusta) all to no avail. I'm wondering now if you have any note on your sources for the information you set out in the reply last May. If so, I would love to get the information. I think my only other option at this stage would be to pursue the church records in the National Library on the off-chance that the transcriptions on the Rootsireland Wicklow website are incomplete.
Regards
Dermot
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Hi Dermot
In relation to my reply last May my source for the info was someone in Australia, but it was a very long time ago, nearly 10 years ago. I will keep looking
But I have just found this while surfing this morning in relation to Catherine Dwyer and Lawrence Donoghoe,
http://www.williamdavidson.com/wc55/wc55_208.html
Regards
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Hi Paula
Many thanks for your reply. The link you found is great. Unfortunately, it seems to knock the notion of a connection through the Donoghue side on the head since the descendants of Catherine Dwyer and Lawrence Donoghue all seem to have ended up in Australia rather than staying in Wicklow. It's difficult to see how there could be a connection between them and the Donoghues in my family. I think I will have to explore the possibility of a connection through the other Dwyer sisters you listed, Esther or, more likely, Mary. From a quick search on Rootsireland, however, it is not looking very hopeful.
I will let you know if I find anything.
Thanks again for your help. Best regards.
Dermot
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Hi Dermot
Don't give up !!!! Are you sure its on your mothers side.
Example : I was given info by mam (both my parents alive and very with it) re her grandmother and she told me her grandmother was Jane White (maiden name) for years i was reasearching on a dead end, and finally made a break and her maiden name was quinn.
I do see from previous posts that the surnames Keogh and White are mentioned. From what I can remember and I am going back to research I done over 9 years ago Keogh/Kehoe and White are in the Michael Dwyer family.
Again I think my link is to Michael Dwyer's father, John (michael) Dwyer and who his brothers were but have not come up with anything on his father except he married Mary Byrne, and he was prob born 1738 to 1748 wicklow.
My links are on my mothers side
My grandfather was Michael Whelan b. carlow and grandmother Jane Whelan b. wexford nee noctor
My grandfather (above) Michael whelan's, father and mother were
Patrick Whelan and Anne Dwyer both b. carlow.
Anne Dwyer (above) my great grandmother, her parents were Patrick Dwyer and Ellen Doran. Patrick and Ellen married 15/6/1852. Ellen Doran was from Seskin but I think this is carlow seskinryan maybe.
Have not got marriage cert this info was kindly supplied to me a long time ago .
Anne Dwyer was born 24/3/1861 and bap 31/3/1861 in parish of Bagnalstown sponsors John Doyle and Margaret Byrne. (have copy of bap cert supplied by relative)
Patrick Dwyer her father is the link to Michael Dwyer and I think he may have been born aprox 1825.
I know above are all born in carlow but people did move about wicklow, carlow wexford.
Regards
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Hi Paula
Interesting to hear that Keogh and White are in the Dwyer family. Once I saw that one of Michael Dwyer's sisters married a Donoghue I thought that was the connection to my mother's (Keogh) family. I hadn't considered a more direct connection with the Keogh's and I haven't pursued the White side at all. So there is hope yet! Many thanks for the information and encouragement.
Best regards
Dermot
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Hi Dermot
I am just checking in with you to see if you have got any further
with your Michael Dwyer research.
Regards
Genseacher
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Hi
I'm afraid I got nowhere in tracing the relationship. I searched through the Dunlavin records in the microfilms at the National Library but had no luck there. I also searched for Keogh/Dwyer and White/Dwyer marriages on rootsireland but I couldn't make a connection between the ones I found and my Keogh and White relatives in the Glen of Imaal. Part of the problem Is that I have found it difficult to take my Keogh and White relations back beyond the middle of the 1800s, the available records being so patchy.
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Hi Paula
I know its been a while since this thread has been active.
At the moment I am researching the Dwyer side of my family as my Grandmother was Julia Dwyer from Rathmore near Rathvilly in Carlow.
Geographically Rathmore is about 8 miles from Baltinglass and I know Camara is around the same on the Wicklow side of Baltinglass.
Paula is there any chance that Michael Dwyer's' family had links to near Rathvilly?
Kind regards
Andy
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Is it too late to get into this conversation? For many years, I have been searching for a link to Michael Dwyer, probably through his wife, Mary Doyle. I cannot find anything about the Doyle family but am really keen for help. My 3xgreat grandfather, Patrick Doyle, was transported to NSW in 1813 as a political prisoner. I have a small reason to think that he could have been a brother of Mary Doyle Dwyer. Also, reading all the above, I know that a granddaughter of Patrick Doyle married a great-grandson of Catherine Dwyer Donoghoe ... Sarah Florence Doyle married Edward James Maloney in Sydney in 1891. They are buried at Waverley Cemetery. I would love to share some other names and information to find some links .... I also have James Doyle husband of Margaret McDonnell and John O'Neill husband of Mary O'Byrne .. all from Wicklow.
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Hello. I was wondering if you found the answers you needed as I recently have been researching about my family past and Michael Dwyer is multiple times over my grandfather
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Hi, Still no evidence of a relationship but another anecdote ... Patrick's daughter, Mary Anne, and her husband, John Anlezark, lived and worked on the Dwyer Farm at Liverpool after their marriage. Mary Dwyer (nee Doyle) was Mary Anne's Godmother and James Dwyer, son of Michael and Mary, was her godfather. Are you able to give me any names and places with which I can compare stories. Kerry
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Hi I am direct descendant of Lawrence Donoghoe / Catherine Dwyer. My line is through Patrick D and Annie O'hara who lived in Bungendore NSW (Australia). my email is now (*)
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Catherine Donoghoe (Dwyer) and Laurence Donoghoe are my 5th grandparents. I hope this information is of some help.
Peter Dwyer son of Michael Dwyer and Mary Doyle married Mary Darley White 1814-1871Mary father Japhet White.
Records in Australia Monaro District spell Keogh- Keough and McKeough
Ellen Keough married James Keough. 2 daughters on record Mrs J Flood and Margaret Keough.
Margaret White 1833-1905 father William White mother Catherine? Married Denis Nolan 1829-1899
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I am sorry that dermo has not replied to the new members posting on this thread, he was online only a few days ago.
Regards
Sarah
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I haven't replied to the recent posts for the simple reason that I have no specific information to offer. As I related in #27 of May 2013, my enquiries got nowhere. None of my Glen of Imaal relatives emigrated to Australia (or anywhere further than Dublin) so I have no connections over there. In any event, I subsequently learned that the information that got me started on trying to trace a link to Michael Dwyer was probably inaccurate.
The book "The Rebel of Glenmalure" by George Cargeeg (1988) has information on Michael Dwyer's Australian descendants. An article by Paul Gorry, "The Family of Michael Dwyer" in the Journal of the West Wicklow Historical Society (vol 1, 1983-84) has information on his Irish relatives. I think both should be available in the National Library.
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Hi my interest is the comment of your relatives connection with Catherine Dwyer who married Lawrence Donoghoe. Any information on the Donoghoe would be appreciated and thank you in advance.
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Hi
You will see from reply#23 above that the link Genseacher gave me indicated that the descendants of Catherine Dwyer and Laurence Donoghoe were all in Australia and so could not have had a direct connection with my relatives in the Glen of Imaal. It is possible, of course, that there could have been (maybe still are) relatives of Laurence Donoghoe in the Glen but the family story was that there was direct descent from a Dwyer not from relatives of a Dwyer spouse. There would have to be direct descent from Catherine and Laurence for the Donoghue in my family tree to provide the link. In any event, I was not able to trace my Donoghue connections back very far in Wicklow, never mind establishing a link to Australia. Sorry not to be of assistance.
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Thanks for the email and Catherine and Lawrence children immigrated to Australia but no records can be found for Catherine and Laurence themselves. So it's quite possibly and thru Family knowledge of settlement practice it's very likely themselves did not immigrate to Australia.
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You may be right. The Cargeeg book says in relation to Catherine Dwyer and Laurence Donoghoe "sons James & John came to New South Wales 1855". I had assumed the sons were their only children but that could be wrong. However, as I mentioned earlier, I could not take my Donoghue line back.
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Thanks for the reply. Excellent thanks for the update and I may assume the names provided for connection are still relevant in and I can document even considering the link could not be traced back. This is highest Advancement I have had in 5 years so any information is 9f great value.
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Hi,
Sorry if I'm late to the chat
I am direct from Laurence Donoghoe and Catherine Dwyer
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Yes you are on the correct track.
Laurence's son John moved to Bungendore Australia NSW
Married Annie O'hara
Etc....
Check out my 'Bungendore History' Fbook page
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Ha!
I just realised its you Cuz!
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Good Evening although I am not connected to Michael Dwyer my ancestor Michael Conroy also from Wicklow Ireland and Mathew McIlroy were on a contract to build Parramatta and Prospect Roads in Richmond New South Wales, what a truly magnificent writeup story on a ancestor all the best. :)
Janet :)
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Have any male descendants on Michael Dwyer line taken a Y dna test? I would like to know his halogroup.
Also Mary Doyle Mtdna.
I'm a descendant of Elizabeth Dwyer their youngest daughter.
There is a trilogy series of books written by Gretta Curran Browne on Michael Dwyer life.
"FIRE ON THE HILL"
"TREAD SOFTLY ON MY DREAMS"
"WORLDS APART"
Michael Dwyer siblings are mentioned in the books
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Have any male descendants on Michael Dwyer line taken a Y dna test? I would like to know his halogroup.
Also Mary Doyle Mtdna.
I'm a descendant of Elizabeth Dwyer their youngest daughter.
There is a trilogy series of books written by Gretta Curran Browne on Michael Dwyer life.
"FIRE ON THE HILL"
"TREAD SOFTLY ON MY DREAMS"
"WORLDS APART"
Michael Dwyer siblings are mentioned in the books
Hi Raelene
there is a Facebook group called Condon Dwyers of Australia Genealogical Project if you would like to join. There are a few different Dwyer families, from different counties but there are some descendants of Michael Dwyer too. There are a few very active researchers helping to break down the brick walls in our ancestry and find records to share, we would love to have there too. The y dna will only work if the descant is a Dwyer by name really because it follows the paternal line.... can't be a descendant of his daughter (is my understanding). But any descendant of Michael Dwyer who has done their dna can still compare with other peoples dna to see if there are matches.