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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: maxene on Thursday 19 May 11 12:17 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find the date of arrival in Australia of James [/bTHORPE/ THORP. His wife, Jane and their five children came out to Australia on the "Adam Lodge" in 1837 with James' brother, John. They travelled from Donegal in Ireland. I am presuming that James was already in Australia - he and his wife had more children after her arrival in Australia. According to the details on the Thorpe headstone (in Maitland Cemetery), James was born C1803.I have found a James Thorp in the "Bellona" which arrived in Sydney in 1793 but that was before he was born - so that is not him. James and his brother were supposed to be stone masons (and involved in building the Darlinghurst Gaol with convict labour) but when he died, James was a teamster travelling near Murrurrundi. Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. :) Maxene
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Hi there,
From the newspaper cutting there's a Certificate of Freedom issued to a James THORP in 1834.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2216965 Sydney Gazette 30 August 1834
From the NSW State Records Office, that James Thorp arrived 1820 on the Elizabeth, and the CF was dated 7 June 1834. Also he was likely tried at Lancester Assizes. Most likely this would indicate a 14 year sentence.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
The building of Darlinghurst Gaol was commenced around the time that this particular James Thorp arrived in Sydney, so perhaps you could trace him through Musters and Census in the 1820's to see where he was assigned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlinghurst_Gaol
Hope this helps give you some further clues,
Cheers, JM
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Majm ;D - what a great help you are!!! You have given me several avenues to pursue and they look pretty spot on. Thank you SO MUCH!!!!! I will post any further info I get on this. Thanks again. Maxene
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Hi,
James is a bit elusive but there is some early Sydney Directory info on John Thorp.
Sydney Directory 1858 (Sands & Kenny)
Thorp, John, mason, 3 Mount-street, Pyrmont
Sydney Directory 1863 (Sands)
Thorp, John, stonemason, 3 Mount-street.
Sydney Directory 1865 (Sands)
Mount -street, Pyrmont, West Side
Thorp, John, mason
Regards
Gerry
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I think John THORP died the same year as his last Directory Entry, 1865
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dbs/
Sue
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Various families from Mount St and Little Mount St Pyrmont were stone masons working for the Saunders Quarries supplying the builders of Sydney's (now) historic buildings with the foundations ...
Cheers, JM
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To Sue and Gerry Hi. :D
Thanks for your help. You are absolutely correct. James is far more elusive than his brother! It took years and a number of false leads to find a record of James' death. It was recorded as Unknown Male Thorpe died at Murrurrundi 1858 and it wasn't until someone located a family headstone at Maitland Cemetery which had his date of death (plus his wife, son & grandson) info on the one headstone that we were able to work backwards and link him and the death record for 1858 in Murrurrundi. I had previously found the records for John that you have located but because he is not part of my direct line, I haven't pursued anything on him. Well, not at this stage anyway.
Majm, I think John Thorpe was in Pyrmont but James' children's births were registered at Maitland/Beresfield /Branxton. Not sure whether he just travelled home on weekends??????
I really appreciate the time you have all taken.
Maxene
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Maxene,
I see in the Empire newspaper 23 rd April 1860 a mention was made of a Mrs James Thorpe of Rutherford near Maitland. There was a murder inquest held at Mrs Thorpe's house which was located near the Ravenfield Quarry.
Wonder if this was your Mrs Thorpe and wonder if James may have worked at the quarry some stage as a mason!
Gerry
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Wow! Gerry! :o That is some find. I will have to try and find out more!!!!! I knew there were cattle duffers in the family...more scandal to potentially add????
I'll have to do some research. Thank you, Maxene
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Okay, now I have gotten over my excitement, calmed down and started checking facts. The James Thorp who came out in 1820 is not my James. His daughter Mary was born in 1823 - I am not sure whether in Donegal or in Paisley, Scotland (that's something else I am chasing). Some family members say James and his wife Jane married in Paisley, Scotland C1823. When she came to Australia in 1837 Jane had five children (the father of whom was James) with her - so I am thinking James came out 1827 - 1837.
I will get back to the convict records; I think there was a James Thorp who came out in 1828 or 1829.
:) Thanks for all the help. Even when things are wrong, it helps me eliminate things and find new avenues to research. Maxene
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Hi there,
Was Mary, the one born in 1823, the youngest of the children? Have you confirmed that her dad was recorded as James ...
Re the 1858 d.c. .... and the usual question .... how long in the colonies .... does it give an answer there (realising that the NSW BDM index seems to indicate that the informant did not provide a given name for that chap, so the information may not be as reliable as it could be) ....
Pulling my thinking cap down harder ;D
Cheers, JM
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Hi Majm. Mary, born 1823, was the oldest child - I think.
James the father was born in 1803 which would make him 20 when she was born. There is no info on his death certificate. The belief is that he died suddenly of possibly a heart attack as he was driving a bullock train and was not found for several days and then he was only identified as Mr Thorpe. He was buried at Murrurrundi but his headstone is at Maitland Cemetery - not sure if his remains were moved but I would presume so. There is a headstone which has: James Thorpe died 2 Jan. 1858 aged 55 years. Jane, wife of above, died 1 Oct 1877 aged 72 years. Alexander Thorpe, son of above, died 10 Sept 1914 aged 74 years and his son, Clarence J. Born 8 Aug 1883, died 15 Aug 1883.
I also have Jane's death certificate, which says she was married in Paisley at 18 years of age but was born in Donegal, Ireland. Children are listed as 3 males, 7 females living, 2 females deceased - so I can already see I am short of 3 children. Back to the drawing board!!!
Frustrating! Maxene
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Hi there,
It is possible that while his name is on that headstone at Maitland, that his remains were not interred there, nor even transferred there at a later time. Headstones do not necessarily indicate that all those named on them are interred in that grave. But, that headstone does give you the d o d for James, so does that match up with the d.c. referenced 4559/1858
What are the likely years of birth for the children who came to Australia with his wife and his brother? (hoping that her d.c. gives ages for them, or at least for those living at that time, or that the immigration records show their ages on entry into Australia)
Fingers crossed
Cheers, JM
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Hi Majm - uncross your fingers...no luck. There are no ages listed on the "Adam Lodge" passenger list - just number of male (1) and female (4) children. Jane's death certificate lists only what I put on my last post - no names, dates, ages - just numbers. Alexander was baptised in Australia on 19/12/1838, Annie was born on 8/01/1841. There is an Anne and an Annie both listed as being born in 1841, James was born in 1843 and Matilda in 1849. Looking at the gaps, it is possible that the 2 births I don't have occurred between 1843 and 49.
Not much help I'm afraid. Maxene :-[
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Oh dear .... I was so hoping those birth years would help you to eliminate some of the James Thorp/e arrivals as per these indexes which most likely you have already gone over and over....
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
and
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/ (simple search option)
and
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/default.htm
Cheers, JM
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A long shot ....
Newcastle's Christ Church Cathedral's bdm records have been uploaded and are free to search online. There are family sheets as part of that. The Rev Wilton was very active in the early years, going on tours to the outer areas of the parish. He kept fairly detailed records. There doesn't seem to be an index associated directly with the images online. BUT, perhaps there's a family sheet for the THORPE family. If so, it could well have the details for when James arrived, and also give details of his marriage and their children ....
Fingers crossed again.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html live links for the flicker images are part way through reply #2 at that thread.
Cheers, JM
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Hi again Majm - yes, I have been through those three sites before. I eliminated the convicts in the first site - although James Thorp on the "Minerva" 1824 is a possibility. The second site did not show up anything. The third site also has 2 James Thorpes in 1824. The best bet - but I still think unlikely - is the 1824 one who was sent to Windsor. I am still trying to find another angle. I do have both Jane's and James' death certificates and I have checked to see if I have missed anything on them - no such luck. I am still searching for the 2 children's births I have missed.
Thanks for your help. :) Maxene
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Bestest I can offer at this late hour
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12420220 SMH19 July 1843, mention of a Mary Gilbert THORPE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12423860 SMH 10 Aug 1843 mention of a Jane Gilbert THORP
Cannot find any mention in that year for James Thorp/e or any indication that Mary Gilbert Thorpe was related to Jane Gilbert Thorp or that these two were connected to your James Thorp/e
Were the baptisms or d.c. C of E, and if so, suggest you try the Christ Church Cathedral images....
Cheers, JM
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Thank you - :) I am onto the Flicker images. Maxene
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Hi,
So married in 1823, in Scotland, then 5 children (1 male, 4 females) then Jane comes to NSW following her husband who had arrived earlier, possibly transported as a convict. Have you checked that the John, escorting this family out on that voyage was her bro in law? (Sometimes in my tree the names James and John turn out to be the same person rather than brothers).
Allowing 15 months (allow time for mum to nurse the newborns) between each child, and presume first child born mid 1823 .... I think you are looking at James arriving NO EARLIER than 1830.
If transported in 1830 or later, perhaps for a trial in 1829 and with a sentence of 7 years .... he could have been completed his sentence by 1837. He may even have been in a position to help fund the fares for that voyage on the Adam Lodge.
Do you have a readers card for either the National Library of Australia or similar bodies at state level? If so, have you accessed online the UK historic newspapers, as these include Scottish newspapers .... Hope this clue could help, but I am not crossing fingers this time ;D
Cheers, JM
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Hi Majm - I love the way you think. John was DEFINITELY the brother-in-law. He lived in Pyrmont and ran a stone masonry firm until his death in 1865. I have tried to rationalise things like you have. What I haven't considered is that James COULD have come out after the family - but that makes little sense to me - and Alexander was baptised in 1838 so he would have been conceived not long after Jane arrived in 1837. One family legend has that James was a member of the Loyal Orange Lodge. Maybe I should be trying to learn about that and see if I can come up with anything from that angle. I have purchased a number of the children's marriage and death certificates to see if I could learn anything new but no such luck. I have put feelers out in the Scotland section (after not having any long distance luck using on line resources that I have access to). I will hopefully at least get a bit of info about marriage or Mary's birth. Not that that will help me find James' arrival in Australia but you never know.
I have a friend who has access to National Libraby resources - she is going to see what she can find. I'll keep looking at Trove.
When I am successful (positive thinking!) I will let you know!!! Maxene ;)
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Well..... I can firmly confirm that the Loyal Orange Lodge in and around Pyrmont was very active !!! And that many of my own forebears from that very suburb were loyal lodge members, and of course stone masons.
If you are near a public library, try this book about Pyrmont & Ultimo (I have copy here, no mention of James in it, but there's mention of a Charles Thorpe in 1917) ....
Pyrmont and Ultimo: Under Siege was commissioned to mark the Sesquincentenary of the City of Sydney and forms part of the Sydney History Series...
ISBN 0 86806 514 5
Copyright 1994 by Shirley Fitzgerald and Hilary Golder.
I purchased my copy around 1995.
(Dewey number 994.41)
Cheers, JM
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;D Thanks for that - I will enjoy the read. Maxene
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I am still on this ::) - I have just read an account of the "Adam Lodge" both pre and during the trip - still no ideas on James. However, on going back through the Adam Lodge passenger list - I missed something which COULD be important. Both John and Jane said they had NO RELATIVES in NSW. Would you take that to mean that James came out AFTER them - or that he was on his way on another ship? I also notice that Alexander, the son born in 1838 (first born in the colony) has the father listed as Thomas Thorpe, but on his death certificate, his father is listed as James. I am wondering...should I be looking for a James Thomas or Thomas James Thorpe? The plot thickens - and I become more confused... Can anyone offer any suggestions? Maxene
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Hi there,
My take ...... they knew that neither of them, nor the children, had any relatives in NSW ..... so James was either in a different colony (NZ, VDL, at the Cape, Canada) or was still in England, or was in the Americas, or was somewheres else, perhaps a seaman on a sailing ship on the high seas or in the army, or employed by the East India Co, or Jane was a widow.
Re John at Pyrmont and James, perhaps the father of Alexander b 1838 in NSW ..... are you sure these two chaps were brothers? Was there another brother named Thomas? I have plenty of examples where Jno and Jas are indexed as separate people, yet when I get to the primary records, (eg NSW State Records Office) and look at the details, Jno and Jas are simply poorly indexed, they are ONE person, their signatures have been mis-transcribed, mind you the signatures were first penned on the papers in the 1820's, and thus have deteriorated over time.
Now to find James arriving AFTER Jane ;D and perhaps NOT as a convict ..... so back to the indexes at NSW SRO
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx (you could follow up on Thomas Thorp/e too)
Cheers, JM (with fingers crossed of course)
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What a saga this is! What I AM certain of is that John and James were two separate people who were two years apart - James born in 1803 and John in 1805. James died in 1858 and John died in 1865. I am not sure of anything with this family!!! But I will soldier on. Thanks Majm :) Maxene
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I think some of the info in this thread is needed on M's new thread
am on e-reader so cannor do the live link thingy yet
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I think some of the info in this thread is needed on M's new thread
am on e-reader so cannor do the live link thingy yet
Done ;)
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Thanks ... I had that James v John aspect on my to do list when next at NSW SRO. Have you tried the NSW parish maps for the Hunter etc. If you are seeking the land details etc these can be handy...
Cheers JM
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Thanks for the advice Majm - you always go the 110% and I appreciate the help you have given me in recent years. :) Maxell
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Submitted on 2013/04/17 at 1:43 am
Hi Brian,
There was a family on the Adam Lodge – family number 73 – of John and Jane Thorpe and their 5 children. Their 5 children were John Thorpe (c1823-), Mary Thorpe (c1826-1879), Rebecca Thorpe (c1829-), Catherine Thorpe (1832-1900), and Elizabeth Thorpe (1835-1911).
The father of this family was a stonemason, but his name was actually James Thorpe. He was 34 years old. He had a single younger brother, also a stonemason, by the name of John who was 32 years old. It appears that James travelled under the name of his brother and gave his brother’s age to be able to comply with the extended regulations to allow married men to be accepted if their age was within one to two years of the 30 year cut-off.
A descendant of James Thorpe later had a child with a descendant of John Boggs. Their child is the 4xgreat-grandson of both men.
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Hi Brian Boggs,
I have recently read about the age restrictions for tradesmen travelling on the Adam Lodge and would concur with you that James used his brother's name to fit within the age restrictions (because his brother was two years younger). Based on your name, I am presuming you are connected to the descendant you mentioned. As I am a descendant of James' daughter, Mary, I would really love to know if you have any other info on the family. It is great to finally settle the puzzle of when James actually came to Australia. Maxell :)
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I forgot to list where this iformation came from. It was a reply I received from Anne Buckingham
davisa@netcon.net.au on my wordpress brianboggs's weblog about the unnamed passengers on the Adam Lodge of 1837.
I think that all the information on John Thorpe I have gleaned from NSW BDM's and you would have it but this is what I have:-
From the Adam Lodge's list made up by Alick Osborne (Surgeon), he is listed as a stone cutter from Donegal age 22 with wife Jane and 1 male and 4 female children. Protestant religion.
Now through other people's research (and I cannot name the people at this time) John was born 1823, Mary's birth death was 1826-1879; Rebecca born 1829, Catherine 1832-1900, Elizabeth 1835-1911. There isprobate for a John Thorpe 8/9/65 at Pyrmont and in 1841 census return 67 John Thorpe has residence at Lane Cove Willoughby , (but number of persons is 2 (No X950)147)
From BDM's deaths
John Thorpe:-
1846 age 32 C of E Sydney St James
1853 Infant C of E Willoughby
1856 Died Newcaastle
1864 Parents Jane and Thomas Sydney
1879 Age 50 Grafton
There may have been others for John
Jane Thorpe parents Sam and Ebenezer in 1877
Now I am putting together the stories of the passengers on this ship and would greatly appreciate any story about the Thorpe family you could provide. So far, I have in excess of twenty of the 83 families on the ship.
My family namesakes together with nine children came out on this ship and settled in Maitland viz:- John, Mary (parents) Nancy, Robert, Isabella, Eliza, William, Sam, Thomas, Rebecca and one female I have frustratingly been unable to find (probably born about 1830 and died before John's death in 1868)
I have been researching for some thirty years and the explosion of information onto the internet has assisted me greatly in recent years
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Hi Maxene and all on this thread,
I'm a descendant, through my mother, of Alexander Thorpe, the first child born in the colony of James Thorpe. I have recently been clearing up my parents house for sale, finding all sorts of interesting things that were destined for the garbage. I knew of my descent to Alexander Thorpe - I have a big family bible from the 19th century that lists all the birth dates going back to him. However, after I received a marriage certificate for Alexander and Jane Campbell today, I was able to see the father was called James and the mother Jane.
And then it was a matter of reading a few threads and thanks to your hard work I had a line going back to 1775 in Donegal.
One of the very interesting discoveries - which was in a suitcase in the family garage, untouched for decades - was a small book of Psalms of David. Approved by the Church of Scotland, printed in Belfast. The year was 1836, which made me wonder if it had come out on the Adam Lodge the following year.
Thanks for all your hard work.
regards
Farley
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Thanks Maxene for your wonderful message (because I am new to this I can't yet send you a reply directly until I post three times). I have attached a picture of the psalm book I found recently. I would like to think it belonged to James' Thorpe but maybe I am stretching with that. I'm not called Farley, I just used it due to the family connections.
kind regards
Andrew