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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Britgal on Saturday 21 May 11 19:01 BST (UK)
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Sorry, but this photo - in the possession of an 81 year old lady with the same Romany background as myself - was already pasted - we assume by the lady's mother as it was passed down in her belongings - along with another photograph, to a bit of plain stiff card. The lady doesn't know the people featured, but I strongly suspect the fair-haired man to be the evangelist 'Gipsy' Simon Smith (a nephew of the more famous 'Gipsy' Rodney Smith), who was born in 1875. I have older photos of Simon, who was my GG grandmother's Naomi Smith's younger brother (I have no photos of Naomi, so if she's the older lady pictured, I can't tell). The 81 year old lady (a granddaughter of Naomi Smith) is keen for me to find out what I can about the photo, so I have her permission to post this.
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I forgot to add that I was after a possible date for the photo.
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Hi Britgal,
What a wonderful photo!
Do you have any other siblings for Simon and Naomi and their dates of birth.
BTW. Looked at your other photo and agree with the comment on the other thread that the lady picked out is the same lady in both photos.
Looking forward to seeing a date for this one,...... my guess early 1920's.
Becky
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Around 1912 give or take a couple of years.The high waisted skirt noticeable on the young woman seated was popular at this time & was styled to give the blouse a barrel shaped look.The large bows of the other 2 were also popular pre WW1 for older girls but went out of fashion by the war.The older woman is in a style from the earlier 1900's which wouldn't be unusual but even women of a certain age abandoned this look by the mid teens.
The man is the most up to date in this modern frock coat & narrow cut trousers with the large turnups accompanied by the 2 1/2" starched collar he would have looked very dapper at this time.
jim
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This is a lovely picture. More than slightly off subject but my Great Grandfather James Billingsley was Gypsy Rodney Smith's Lieutenant in Hanley Staffordshire. Gypsy Smith was also best man at his wedding in 1886. Small world. Fiona.
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Thanks so much for the comments so far.
I've attached the youngest photo I currently have that I know to be Simon Smith - I don't know the date, however; it's a scan (tidied up) from a commercially-available postcard I bought on eBay. Any ideas of a date? I know there's not much to go on! Do other people think I've got the young man in the main photo right by thinking he's the same guy only a bit younger?
I have another photo (also from a postcard) of Simon with his mother Susan Lee, but she's definitely not the older woman in the main photo of this post, nor any of the women in the other ladies-only photo I posted on the same day.
Squiggle, you asked for dates of other of Simon and Naomi's sibs ... the only female one who survived until 1912-ish was Elizabeth (b. 1867). Naomi's surviving female children who might be of an age to appear in this photo, however, were Ocean (b. 1887), my own g-grandmother Susan (b. 1891), Alvina (1893) and Dora (1895). I do have post-1912 images of all of these ladies, but can't seem to see any close resemblances to the young women in this photo (will make a montage a bit later, so maybe others might see something I'm not seeing!). Another vague possibility for one of the young women could be Simon and Naomi's deceased sibling Delilah's daughter Elizabeth Faulkner (b. 1884), in whose house Naomi was living at the time of the 1911 census*. No photo of Elizabeth Faulkner, sadly, though, and she's possibly too old by 1912 to look the same age as one of the younger women in the photo.
If the fair-haired man IS Simon Smith ... and the date IS 1912-ish ... the young boy in the photo is of the right age to be Simon's eldest child and only son at this time, William (b. 1899). Simon was known to be still living in England until December 1912 - when he moved his family to Canada.
*Despite being Romany stock, due to Simon and Naomi's father Bartholomew's Christian conversion, the Smith branch of the family ceased to be nomadic around the time of the tragic death of Simon and Naomi's sister Mary in 1880 (then Barthy himself died in 1884). The Taylor branch of Roms that Naomi married into 'settled' permanently in Canning Town due to Naomi's husband's failing health and eventual death in 1904.
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This one's around the same time as the other one.This style with the high lapeless waistcoat & round starched collar prevailed over quite a long time so could be into the war years.
Realistically anywhere from 1905-20 but I suspect pre WW1.
jim
jim
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Agree with Jim on the date for the first photo, but would push it out to the later end of his date window...around 1914 or so. The V-necked blouse came out in about 1913-1914, and I have a photo of a very similar outfit on a young lady dated 1914 by the sitter on the back.
Cheers,
China
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Greetings from Canada !!!
My Great Grandfather was Gipsy Simon Smith .. My mother Dianne's ,Grandfather .. My Grandmother Madge's ,Father .. He was married to Blanche Louise Mackenzie they had 9 children that lived.. sadly twins ,one boy and one girl died of pneumonia at the approximate age of 2 yrs.. on the farm in Ontario, I do not know the DOB or the DOD or their names .. I will look further into that .
These are the 9
William * He died in his 60's of cancer
Ada *
May *
Violet *
Lily *
Ruby * she was youngest of siblings to die .. and it was from cancer
Ivy * she was the last living sibling ,she lived into her nineties she passed 5 yrs ago.. I attended her 90th Party with all the family it was an Elvis themed event, based on her favorite movie BLUE HAWAII .
Madge ( Marguerite) *
Donald (Hague) Smith *
His mother Susan Smith passed away in 1926 at the age of 86
I have a copy of his book The Adventures of a Gipsy Boy and other stories.. it is filled with his life story,poetry and lots of family history . I also have an original book of hymns and some original sheet music that he wrote..
Bartholomew father of Gypsy Simon and Cornelius, father to Gypsy Rodney Smith .
Bartholomew died when Simon was 11 ,he had a strained heart .Life was very tough for them. Simon heard there was was a man who would help poor boys and girls the place was in Stepney Causeway called Dr. Barnardo's Home . Simon pleaded his case that he was a gipsy boy ,his father was dead ,that he wanted to go to Canada to work on a farm so he could send his wages home to his mother .. and it happened . Across the Atlantic he went .. it was hard grueling work at the hands of an abusive man .. After 2 yrs in Canada he returned to England ... and was employed by a horse dealer he ended up traveling to the USA ,Holland,Mexican Boarder,Guatemala,Honduras,he went all over the world , he crossed the ocean 43 times , He never slept in a house til he was 12 yrs old.. He became a missionary in the slums of London ,and then an Evangelist ..He had most of his children in England before coming to Toronto that is where my Grandmother was born..they first landed in Nova Scotia , they ended up settling in London ,Ontario ,Canada because it reminded him of England with the Thames River, that is where they lived out the rest of their lives .. That is where they are buried ..at Woodland Cemetery
Look forward to hearing from you..
Heather
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The large photo is Gipsy Simon ..
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The oldest man in the group photo does not resemble my great grandfather .. Simon ..could it be Naomi's husband or some other family member ??The mouth doesn't look to be the same or the nose.. but I could be wrong.. my mom has looked at it also ..
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Hi there, Heather - thanks for getting in touch. I'm your 3rd cousin, once removed (Naomi, Susan, Clara Naomi, June Beatrice and me, Sarah Louise a.k.a. Sarah-Lou). Please email me if you're interested in exchanging family tree info. My tree has 10 children for Simon, two of whom were called Violet, so I'm assuming the earlier one died and that she would have been one of the twins - do you have the names and d.o.b. of the twins? Can you shed any light on the group photo, here? Another Canadian descendant of Simon's, Liana Brennan, thinks it could be Simon.
Best wishes,
Sarah-Lou (email: sairhug at hotmail dot com - usual at and dot)
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So good to hear from you Sarah -Lo (( my 3rd cousin ..one removed))
This is so exciting.. getting in touch with family !! Where are you living ??
I am living in Niagara Falls . I would love to get involved in the family tree with you . I will give you my email as well
it is * I am on facebook as well ((Heather Paisley)) I will have to get some photos scanned and on here for you to see.
My mom is certain that in the group photo that is not her grandfather Simon.. she has no clue on who the others could be.
Madge ,Don and the twins were born in Canada ,the rest were born in England .
My Great Aunt Violet was born in England before the twins as far as my mom knows..
I added more info to my first large post if you would like to go back and re-read it..
I beleive you have been in contact with my Great Aunt May's... son (Larry's)... daughter
Take Care
Heather
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Hi all,
I do not think the two men in the photos are the same. I have placed them side by side so that you can see how different they look.
Having said that, I can see some similarities so perhaps they are related.
Cheers
Prue
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Thanks - definitely not the same guy now they're side by side. The earlobes give it away ;D. Even though, when I first clapped eyes on the photo I'd immediately thought "That's Simon Smith!" I had started to doubt it when the date was set at around 1912, because no way is the young man in the photo 37 (Simon having been born in 1875). Hmmm. His youngest brother, Bartholomew was born in 1884 ...
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I too am the great-granddaughter of Gipsy Simon Smith. My Grandmother was May (Alice). I would love to chat with you maxtyler and exchange info. Britgal and I have been in contact for a couple of years now. If my memory serves me I thought that the boy twin, died either at birth or shortly after and the girl lived until about age 2. The reason that I believe that is that the photo that Nana used to have hanging in her hallway included the youngest girl. I too am not sure of the name, but Bella or Rose comes to mind.
I will contact you through FB. I would love to see what photos you have and it you know of the one that I am searching for of the family that includes the youngest girl. I just had a scan of a photo sent to me that has 7 of the children, which is a great find. I am still hoping to find a copy of the other one that has more of the children in it.
Also, and Evangelist in South Carolina, that I met published a small book on Gipsy Simon Smith, just last year. It is very interesting and you may wish a copy.
Here is the photo I just received.
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That is a wonderful photo.. Aunt May was very special to my mom.. she would always get her fancy outfits and spend lots of quality time with her.. they had a very special bond. My Uncle David had the original
"Adventures of a Gypsy Boy" it was lent out to Aunt Dorothy for copies to be made and sadly,never returned . Not sure what happened to it after she passed away .. Would you happen to know where it is by chance?? It had alot more detail than the copy we acquired from Texas..
My mom says the twins both died a few weeks apart .. of pneumonia . She says that is not one of them in that photo . I will get a scanner and get some photos on here.. and get some form my mom.
It would be great to get info on getting a copy of the book you found down in the US . from you ..
please look me up on facebook and we can talk some more. I get to Toronto often as well .. maybe we could meet up for coffee some time.. Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Heather
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Wow, what a fantastic result! I'm so glad you've made contact with each other :) :) :)
You might consider continuing your conversation on another board or by email...not that I want to be a wet blanket, but we're going off topic now ("on topic" being restoring photos ;) )
Cheers
Prue
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You probabaly know this story, but an Old Methodist minister once told me that Gypsy Smith once slid down the handrail of the pulpit steps to illustrate Man's descent into Hell.
Wonderful stuff!
Cati
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Maxtyler,
I tried to contact you on FB but have not had a response. Please contact me on FB. Liana Jopson Brennan. That way we are not using this site for our personal business.
Look forward to hearing from you.
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So thrilled to find this chat! My great grandmother was Florence Sarah Smith. From what I am told Simon could have been her brother. Gypsy Rodney Smith was her uncle.
This is her at 18. She married William May and then was married to Frederick Eli Dollin.
(http://mediasvc.ancestry.com/image/7458cdc2-a044-448b-967f-3ace708b3563.jpg?Client=Trees&NamespaceID=1093&MaxSide=500)
If anyone knows any more info I would be very greatful!
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Hi onemcfamily,
Have just seen your post ... sorry for the 4 year delay! Lovely photo of your ancestor, Florence Sarah Smith. How have you got on with discovering her ancestry? You say her brother may have been Simon Smith (a son of Bartholomew Smith) and that she was a niece of Gipsy Rodney Smith's ... but for her to have had Rodney as an uncle her father would have to be Ezekiel Smith, Rodney's only brother, who married Eliza Shaw. Unfortunately, having tracked Ezekiel's family through the census returns, there is no sign of a Florence; his only daughter seems to have been a Matilda. Have you discovered an alternative connection between Florence and Rodney, other than that of niece?
If, as you were told, she might have been a sister of Simon, then Gipsy Rodney Smith would have been a 1st cousin, not an uncle (Simon's father Bartholomew and Rodney's father Cornelius were brothers) ... but I've yet to discover a sister of Simon's with the name Florence. Family legend - passed on by Gipsy Rodney Smith - has it that Bartholomew gave all his children biblical names ... though I've already discovered an exception to the rule with his 1883 son, Bertie! However, in 1911 Bartholomew's wife is listed as having had 13 live births, whereas I have only found 11 children to date, so I'm not ruling anything out.
- Sarah
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This should make interesting reading for those with an interest in this;
http://www.biblebelievers.com/gypsy_smith/index.html
My interest arises from the fact that my Great-Grandfather David Conway was among those who Gypsy was later to refer to as "My friends from Hanley".
Regards
William Russell Jones.